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Caught between Debunkers and Believers: Len Duggan on Chemtrails | UK Column Interviews · UK Column Radio

0:08
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the UK Column. Today I'm joined
0:11
Speaker 1: by Len Duggan. Len, welcome to the program. The topic
0:15
Speaker 1: for today's conversation is chemtrails. And I was sent your
0:21
Speaker 1: website recently and it immediately gelled with me because I
0:28
Speaker 1: think for the first time I'm seeing somebody producing some
0:32
Speaker 1: content on the internet which is um evidenced let's put it.
0:37
Speaker 2: That way yeah uh i'm glad you was interested and
0:42
Speaker 2: i'm glad you like the website so i'll try to
0:45
Speaker 2: put it together from evidence as you say from science studies.
0:48
Speaker 1: Very briefly just give us a little bit about your
0:50
Speaker 1: background and why you decided that you wanted to uh
0:53
Speaker 1: to get into this particular topic?
0:55
Speaker 2: I've got quite a varied background. I've done quite a
0:58
Speaker 2: lot of different things in my life and I'm able
1:01
Speaker 2: to turn my mind to lots of different subjects. Chemtrails
1:07
Speaker 2: came onto my radar a while back, maybe 10 years
1:10
Speaker 2: or so ago. And I could see that something wasn't
1:14
Speaker 2: right with the trails. It was that they were lasting
1:16
Speaker 2: much longer than before. And they were lasting in, we
1:22
Speaker 2: could see them in clear blue skies. And that didn't
1:25
Speaker 2: seem to be right for me. Clouds are normally in
1:30
Speaker 2: cloudy environments and not in clear blue skies. So I
1:35
Speaker 2: started to investigate as to what was going on. And
1:39
Speaker 2: that was how I got into it, basically. When I
1:41
Speaker 2: first started to investigate, I did the same as everyone
1:48
Speaker 2: else does. You go onto social media and you ask
1:52
Speaker 2: questions of people who you believe know the truth, experts
1:56
Speaker 2: in the field and people who put themselves across as experts. And... Also,
2:04
Speaker 2: there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. So I've
2:09
Speaker 2: filled down all of the rabbit holes, the same as
2:12
Speaker 2: one does, regarding spraying and all sorts of nefarious activities
2:18
Speaker 2: going on. And It took me a while to get
2:23
Speaker 2: through those hurdles, let's call them hurdles, because they were
2:30
Speaker 2: things put in the way of understanding the reality of
2:34
Speaker 2: what's actually happening. For me, they were hurdles.
2:37
Speaker 1: Well, that's an interesting point you make. Why did you...
2:41
Speaker 1: Why were you not prepared to accept what you were reading?
2:44
Speaker 2: Because I could see it didn't really fit in with
2:46
Speaker 2: the reality of what it was I was viewing. I
2:49
Speaker 2: could see well enough that the trails were coming out
2:52
Speaker 2: of the engines of ordinary airliners. And that didn't fit
2:56
Speaker 2: with the idea that it comes across with this secret
2:59
Speaker 2: spraying thing. If it was a secret spraying program, and
3:03
Speaker 2: it was actually the worst kept secret in the world
3:06
Speaker 2: because it was visible from everyone. Everyone could see it
3:08
Speaker 2: in the sky from anywhere. So it didn't, it just
3:11
Speaker 2: didn't sit right. I figured that there was something else
3:15
Speaker 2: happening rather than, rather than the secret spraying programs. And
3:20
Speaker 2: it definitely was something. There was lots of people who
3:23
Speaker 2: were saying that they're just ordinary contrails and that there's
3:26
Speaker 2: been going on for years. And yeah, they are trails, but,
3:33
Speaker 2: they are enhanced trails because they could, for me, how
3:38
Speaker 2: I understand it now is chemtrails for me are a
3:41
Speaker 2: subset of contrails. They're not a completely different entity. They
3:46
Speaker 2: don't exist on their own. They are enhanced contrails, which
3:51
Speaker 2: is why I believe they got their name chemtrails, why
3:53
Speaker 2: that name seems to fit so well. And so it
3:59
Speaker 2: was interesting. There's lots of what I could say is
4:03
Speaker 2: misinformation regarding the nefarious activities of governments spraying us, spraying
4:11
Speaker 2: us like bugs is one of the phrases that gets
4:15
Speaker 2: used on the internet quite often. And we are... being
4:20
Speaker 2: subjected to chemicals. But the chemicals are in the fuel,
4:25
Speaker 2: and that's why you can see the trails coming out
4:28
Speaker 2: the back of the engines, because it's after the chemicals,
4:32
Speaker 2: after the fuel is burnt, is what we see. We
4:36
Speaker 2: see the remainder of what's being expelled out of the
4:42
Speaker 2: back of the engine.
4:43
Speaker 1: So this is an interesting point. When do you think,
4:47
Speaker 1: or when does the evidence suggest that this enhancement to
4:52
Speaker 1: jet fuel happened?
4:53
Speaker 2: From my investigation, it was about 1995 when they changed the...
5:00
Speaker 2: The way they refined the fuel, around 1995, they started
5:07
Speaker 2: using more fuel that came from the leftover sludge at
5:12
Speaker 2: the bottom of the refining process. It would normally go
5:16
Speaker 2: towards tarmac and asphalt, and it was the worthless stuff
5:20
Speaker 2: that's left at the bottom. They found a way of
5:23
Speaker 2: refining that sludge and making jet fuel and valuable fuels
5:30
Speaker 2: out of that sludge. But in that sludge comes all
5:34
Speaker 2: of the contaminants from the fuel. It's all concentrated into
5:39
Speaker 2: that sludge. So when they refine it in the coking
5:43
Speaker 2: and cracking processes, the secondary processes, a lot of the
5:48
Speaker 2: contaminants come through into the newly made jet fuel. And
5:53
Speaker 2: they mix the jet fuel from the sludge. They mix
5:57
Speaker 2: it in with the distilled jet fuel, which is the
5:59
Speaker 2: pure jet fuel, which we always used to use. So
6:03
Speaker 2: there was more contaminants getting into everyday jet fuel.
6:09
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's quite a suggestion. So why? Where did
6:14
Speaker 1: the evidence come from or how did you track the
6:17
Speaker 1: evidence down to demonstrate that this was what was going on?
6:20
Speaker 2: It's actually quite easy to find. The refineries don't keep
6:24
Speaker 2: it a secret. They fully acknowledge that they are using
6:30
Speaker 2: delayed cracking and coking is what they call it. And
6:34
Speaker 2: they use that to... They say that by making valuable
6:41
Speaker 2: jet fuel from the sludge that would normally go to
6:46
Speaker 2: make asphalt and tarmac, that they can make cheaper fuel,
6:50
Speaker 2: that we can go on holidays cheaper, and that airplanes
6:53
Speaker 2: can fly without using cheaper fuel. So it's not a secret.
6:58
Speaker 2: It's a financial thing. It's a financial thing. There's a
7:05
Speaker 2: reason why they've done it, to make the fuel cheaper.
7:08
Speaker 1: Okay, that's one thing. But what about the actual contents?
7:12
Speaker 1: Because on your website, you have breakdowns of what is
7:15
Speaker 1: actually in the fuel and where did that information come from?
7:19
Speaker 2: That comes from science studies. The only way really you
7:22
Speaker 2: can tell... The only way really that you should get
7:28
Speaker 2: information about subjects like this is from science studies. Everything
7:34
Speaker 2: else is really just hearsay. And so there's science studies.
7:41
Speaker 2: The refineries, they tell you what's in the fuel. And
7:45
Speaker 2: there's science studies that check the fuel before it's banned.
7:49
Speaker 2: And then there's other science studies that– collect the exhaust
7:55
Speaker 2: and test the particulate matter in the exhaust so there's
7:59
Speaker 2: lots of science studies it's the information is out there
8:03
Speaker 2: if people just look in the right place everything is
8:05
Speaker 2: available all of the science studies have already documented all
8:09
Speaker 2: of the things that we need to know about chemtrails.
8:12
Speaker 1: What kind of particulate matter is coming out of the
8:14
Speaker 1: exhaustive jets the.
8:16
Speaker 2: Main instigator of chemtrails are the very tiny spherical particles
8:24
Speaker 2: that come through the engine. They start off with a
8:29
Speaker 2: metallic core, a metallic center, and then they are built
8:35
Speaker 2: upon layer by layer as the exhaust prune evolves. And
8:40
Speaker 2: they become... larger spherical particles, and it's the spherical particles
8:48
Speaker 2: that are actually very hydroscopic, and they are formed from
8:55
Speaker 2: metallic elements, silicon, and then they get coated with sulfur,
9:01
Speaker 2: and that makes them very hydroscopic, and they can scavenge
9:06
Speaker 2: the water vapor that is directly behind the engines. The
9:10
Speaker 2: engine turns out a vast amount of water vapor. It
9:14
Speaker 2: turns fuel into water vapor, basically. That's what an engine does.
9:19
Speaker 2: For every ton of fuel that the engine burns, it
9:23
Speaker 2: produces nearly a ton and a quarter of water vapor.
9:27
Speaker 2: So an engine is a flying water-making machine. And the
9:34
Speaker 2: tiny particles, they call them trace elements, and they are
9:38
Speaker 2: present in trace numbers but the numbers are actually quite
9:43
Speaker 2: astronomical in in every square it's for every cubic centimeter
9:51
Speaker 2: of air that comes out the back of the exhaust
9:54
Speaker 2: there's 100 million of these small, tiny particles.
9:58
Speaker 1: And each one of those attracts the water vapor. And
10:02
Speaker 1: so why does the water vapor over time, not just re-evaporate?
10:08
Speaker 2: Because the isotropic nature of the particle, it holds the
10:12
Speaker 2: water vapor. It scavenges it faster, directly behind the engine,
10:16
Speaker 2: which is why we see trails so close to the engine.
10:19
Speaker 2: It should always be a couple of plane lengths behind
10:23
Speaker 2: the engine. You shouldn't see a trail within a couple
10:26
Speaker 2: of plane lengths. But we see them directly behind the
10:29
Speaker 2: engine because the particles are so good at scavenging the
10:32
Speaker 2: water vapor. And they... hold the water vapor and they
10:38
Speaker 2: don't allow it to escape back into they don't allow
10:42
Speaker 2: it to change from an ice crystal back into vapor
10:47
Speaker 2: when the humidity drops they hold it much more firmly
10:52
Speaker 2: and that's why they the trails last in what we
10:56
Speaker 2: call clear blue skies.
10:58
Speaker 1: Okay but some some days we do see uh the
11:01
Speaker 1: trails disappeared quite quickly so what's the difference.
11:04
Speaker 2: Uh What's the difference there? The humidity. When the humidity
11:08
Speaker 2: is very low, even enhanced trails will still disappear. Right.
11:14
Speaker 2: So what's happened is that this is why I see
11:18
Speaker 2: chemtrails as being a subset of contrails because they both
11:23
Speaker 2: need the humidity of the surrounding air to last. The
11:26
Speaker 2: difference is that contrails are the pre- 1995, they required
11:34
Speaker 2: humidity of 125% with respect to ice. And they would
11:42
Speaker 2: only grow and last if the humidity was very highly supersaturated.
11:49
Speaker 2: Whereas now, with the enhanced effects of the microscopic nature
11:53
Speaker 2: of the particles, the Trails can now last when the
11:58
Speaker 2: air is subsaturated 90% or 85% humidity with respect to ice.
12:03
Speaker 2: So the enhanced... effect is that the threshold has been
12:15
Speaker 2: brought down from 125% to 90%. That's the enhanced effect.
12:20
Speaker 2: So they still require the same physics, but it's just
12:25
Speaker 2: that one is a lot better at doing it than
12:27
Speaker 2: the other.
12:28
Speaker 1: A lot of the people that are claiming some kind
12:33
Speaker 1: of government spraying operation or whatnot show photographs of various things.
12:40
Speaker 1: They show photographs of aircraft with, apparently with tanks inside.
12:44
Speaker 1: They show photographs of aircraft with trails, which apparently are
12:49
Speaker 1: the entire wingspan of the aircraft. Are there explanations for
12:56
Speaker 1: what these photographs are?
12:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. The tanks inside the aeroplane, they look like
13:05
Speaker 2: large kegs of beer, and they're arranged where the seats
13:11
Speaker 2: would be. They're actually part of testing new aeroplanes before
13:18
Speaker 2: they're put into production and put into service. So they
13:23
Speaker 2: half fill them with water to represent the weight of
13:27
Speaker 2: the person. And then they can pump that water into
13:30
Speaker 2: different tanks and they can make it that all of
13:36
Speaker 2: the weight of the people, it's like they're simulating what
13:42
Speaker 2: would happen if all the people ran to the back
13:43
Speaker 2: of the airplane. Would it... disrupt the flight of the
13:48
Speaker 2: airplane and would it stall and fall out of the sky?
13:51
Speaker 2: Or if everyone ran to the front of the engine,
13:54
Speaker 2: would it push their nose down and would the pilot
13:57
Speaker 2: have trouble pulling the airplane up? So these are ballast
14:01
Speaker 2: tanks that are for test purposes to make sure that
14:05
Speaker 2: the airplane is stable in flight. The Aerodynamic trails, what
14:13
Speaker 2: you see, they come from the other thing that you mentioned,
14:20
Speaker 2: what looks like a trail coming from the whole of
14:23
Speaker 2: the wing. They are actually aerodynamic trails. They're not exhaust trails.
14:28
Speaker 2: They occur when the wings of the airplane, as they
14:34
Speaker 2: go through saturated air, they create a difference in the
14:40
Speaker 2: pressure because the lift that comes from the wings, it
14:45
Speaker 2: creates lift and it changes the pressure. And that causes
14:49
Speaker 2: the saturated water vapor in the air to condense out
14:52
Speaker 2: into droplets. So it's like the airplane is going through
14:56
Speaker 2: the air and making a rainbow. That's the best way
14:59
Speaker 2: I think I can describe that. That's actually a big
15:06
Speaker 2: part of the misinformation is that people see lots and
15:11
Speaker 2: lots of videos of people filming aerodynamic trails. They start
15:18
Speaker 2: and stop abruptly. because it's controlled by the pressure and
15:23
Speaker 2: the humidity of the air. And they start and stop abruptly.
15:27
Speaker 2: And people say that this is evidence to say that
15:31
Speaker 2: they're wingsprayers and they're turning the chemtrails on and off.
15:35
Speaker 2: And it's not. I would suggest that anyone who's interested
15:39
Speaker 2: in chemtrails, the first thing they do is learn about
15:42
Speaker 2: aerodynamic trails and what they actually are. You can actually
15:46
Speaker 2: see them. Anytime an aerofoil goes through a saturated air,
15:55
Speaker 2: it will produce an aerodynamic trail. So you can actually
15:58
Speaker 2: see them from race cars. And when you see a
16:01
Speaker 2: race car going around a track, a Formula One car,
16:05
Speaker 2: if it's a really humid day, it will make a
16:07
Speaker 2: trail off the wing of the car.
16:11
Speaker 1: So this can happen at any altitude then?
16:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It just has to be the right humidity.
16:17
Speaker 2: If it's super saturated air, it will cause a trail.
16:23
Speaker 2: Aerodynamic trails normally happen at a lower height than where
16:28
Speaker 2: we see contrails and chemtrails. There's no such thing as
16:32
Speaker 2: a contrail anymore because all of the fuel, every plane
16:38
Speaker 2: uses the same fuel, and all of the fuel has
16:40
Speaker 2: the contaminants in it. So every single trail you see,
16:45
Speaker 2: whether it lasts a short time or whether it lasts
16:46
Speaker 2: a long time, is a chemtrail by definition because it's
16:49
Speaker 2: got the chemicals in it.
16:51
Speaker 1: Well, more than that, I mean, even when there's no
16:53
Speaker 1: trail at all, I think that's the important thing because
16:59
Speaker 1: this is pollution and it's there no matter whether it's
17:02
Speaker 1: visible or not. Yeah, exactly.
17:04
Speaker 2: If just because the airplane is not making a trail,
17:08
Speaker 2: the contaminants are still coming out the engine. And this
17:12
Speaker 2: is why you see often you see a haze in
17:18
Speaker 2: the upper atmosphere. It's like the blue isn't as blue
17:22
Speaker 2: as it used to be. and it's a slightly lighter blue.
17:27
Speaker 2: And that's because of the metallic elements that are in
17:30
Speaker 2: the sky in general from all of the airplanes, even
17:34
Speaker 2: though they're not forming clouds.
17:36
Speaker 1: So is there any, have there been any studies or
17:39
Speaker 1: is there any evidence to suggest that this is affecting
17:44
Speaker 1: the weather? You know, obviously... we're going through a heat
17:50
Speaker 1: wave at the moment, which is being described by the
17:52
Speaker 1: mainstream media as something that we've got to be afraid of. Um, but, uh,
17:57
Speaker 1: I would, I would argue that, that in general, the
18:01
Speaker 1: amount of sunshine that we are exposed to in the
18:04
Speaker 1: 2020s is significantly lower than it was in the late nineties. Um,
18:10
Speaker 1: and that must have a detrimental effect on, on us
18:14
Speaker 1: as human beings. Uh, Do you think there's, I mean,
18:17
Speaker 1: is there any evidence or any studies on the amount
18:21
Speaker 1: of sunlight that we are being exposed to now compared
18:25
Speaker 1: to in the past?
18:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of scientists who study the
18:30
Speaker 2: amount of sunlight that hits the Earth. And they acknowledge
18:36
Speaker 2: that less is reaching the Earth than before. And it's
18:42
Speaker 2: been blocked by the atmosphere. And because the atmosphere is
18:51
Speaker 2: full of these contaminants, these tiny particles which are reflecting
18:55
Speaker 2: the sunlight. So that is what you see when you
18:58
Speaker 2: see a haze. It's like the sky, even on a
19:03
Speaker 2: clear blue sky, even during a clear blue sky day
19:07
Speaker 2: when there's no trails in the sky at all, you
19:10
Speaker 2: still see a haze. And often you see like a
19:14
Speaker 2: halo around the sun. And that's proof that there's something
19:18
Speaker 2: in the air that's reflecting the light. And so, yeah,
19:24
Speaker 2: it's something that science has studied and it's something that
19:27
Speaker 2: they are having trouble figuring out because they don't always
19:33
Speaker 2: see that the issue is the fuel. from engines. It's
19:39
Speaker 2: something that's overlooked by science.
19:43
Speaker 1: We'll come back onto this in more detail in a second,
19:45
Speaker 1: but since you bring it up, if you're saying that
19:48
Speaker 1: scientists are overlooking this, particular aspect, what kind of response
19:53
Speaker 1: have you had to the work that you've done, both
19:57
Speaker 1: from people that are researchers in the area on the
20:02
Speaker 1: sort of conspiracy side, if you like, but also the
20:06
Speaker 1: from the scientific community?
20:08
Speaker 2: I don't really interact with the scientific community, to be honest.
20:11
Speaker 2: They don't need to listen to anything I'm saying. In general,
20:16
Speaker 2: they understand everything they need to know.
20:20
Speaker 1: I'm thinking more, actually, in terms of the sort of
20:23
Speaker 1: science-based sort of debunker YouTube community.
20:28
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. I have a lot of interaction with people
20:34
Speaker 2: who profess to be experts, but they all deny the
20:39
Speaker 2: hydroscopic nature of the particles. They will not talk about that.
20:44
Speaker 2: They will not talk about that because if they do,
20:48
Speaker 2: they will have to admit that this hydroscopic nature of
20:51
Speaker 2: the particles enhance the trails. So all of the debunkers,
20:57
Speaker 2: they won't address this issue. As soon as I... They'll say, oh,
21:03
Speaker 2: it's ordinary contrails, it's ordinary this, and it's always happened.
21:07
Speaker 2: You get all of these stories. But as soon as
21:09
Speaker 2: I say to them, okay, then let us talk about
21:11
Speaker 2: the hydroscopic nature of the particles, they won't address it.
21:16
Speaker 2: They refuse to address it because they're not... It's almost
21:20
Speaker 2: like it's their job to deny the truth. They put
21:25
Speaker 2: themselves across as being... has been people that are interested
21:31
Speaker 2: in only the truth. But to refuse to acknowledge a
21:37
Speaker 2: large part of the scenario is really, for me, that
21:45
Speaker 2: doesn't fit a person who's interested in the truth because
21:49
Speaker 2: if they were, they would talk to me about hydroscopic
21:52
Speaker 2: nature of the particles. I have many studies. One of
21:58
Speaker 2: the finest studies is by a man called Geisel. And he...
22:06
Speaker 2: studied the size of the particles and the sulfur content
22:10
Speaker 2: of the fuel and he found that the smaller the
22:12
Speaker 2: particle and the more sulfur content enhanced the ability of
22:16
Speaker 2: the hydroscopic nature of the particles so it can't be
22:20
Speaker 2: denied but the debunkers will do deny it. They will
22:28
Speaker 2: not investigate that because they know that that's the flaw
22:31
Speaker 2: in what they're saying. They will not talk about the
22:36
Speaker 2: hydroscopic nature of the particles.
22:38
Speaker 1: And is that because if they were to admit that,
22:40
Speaker 1: then they may have to admit that the people that
22:42
Speaker 1: are pushing the idea of chemtrails in the way that
22:47
Speaker 1: we might normally understand it, they would have to admit
22:52
Speaker 1: that they're at least partly right?
22:54
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It seems like they have a vested
22:59
Speaker 2: interest in saying that what we see today is the
23:02
Speaker 2: same as what we've always seen. If they was interested
23:06
Speaker 2: in the truth, they wouldn't avoid the subject of hydroscopicity
23:10
Speaker 2: of the particles.
23:13
Speaker 1: Well, let's just talk about that a little bit more then,
23:16
Speaker 1: because you've mentioned one science paper on it. But I mean,
23:21
Speaker 1: how much has this been studied?
23:26
Speaker 2: Hydroscopic nature of particles is a very big scientific avenue
23:32
Speaker 2: of study it's not only connected to chemtrails it's as
23:39
Speaker 2: it's um It goes through all engines. Jet engines are
23:46
Speaker 2: used for all sorts of different things, even power plants
23:51
Speaker 2: and all sorts of different things when they're on the ground,
23:55
Speaker 2: power plants on the ground and all sorts of different things.
23:59
Speaker 2: Jet engines are used for these purposes. And the hydroscopic
24:02
Speaker 2: nature of the particles is something that's intrinsically linked with
24:06
Speaker 2: that that field of study. So it's not only connected
24:10
Speaker 2: to airplane engines, it's connected to all jet engines and
24:15
Speaker 2: it's very well studied.
24:17
Speaker 1: So that makes it quite incredible that anybody's unwilling to
24:21
Speaker 1: engage on it. Yeah. And the broader sort of chemtrail community,
24:30
Speaker 1: the Dale Wigington's and so on of the world, what's
24:32
Speaker 1: their reaction to your work?
24:35
Speaker 2: Well, They blocked me, actually. I've had a few, I
24:45
Speaker 2: won't say run-ins because that's the wrong word, but it's
24:48
Speaker 2: a word that sort of comes to my mind straight away.
24:51
Speaker 2: I've had a few run-ins with Dame Wiggy and Russ
24:54
Speaker 2: Tanner and all of the other big players in the
24:58
Speaker 2: field who promote the idea of chemtrails. And when I
25:02
Speaker 2: try to explain to them that they've got some things wrong,
25:06
Speaker 2: like turbofans, they say turbofan engines don't make trails and
25:11
Speaker 2: all of these other things. But they're actually not based
25:15
Speaker 2: on the truth. I even went to Dane Weekend, for instance.
25:23
Speaker 2: I don't want to dig him out on purpose. He's
25:27
Speaker 2: one of many, but he is one of the largest
25:31
Speaker 2: in the realm of chemtrails. So he was one of
25:36
Speaker 2: the first who came on my radar when I started
25:39
Speaker 2: looking 10 years ago, when I first started looking into
25:42
Speaker 2: what are these chemtrails. And they were getting a Max
25:46
Speaker 2: Bliss and many others. They all were on my radar,
25:50
Speaker 2: and I was getting information from them. And when I
25:53
Speaker 2: discovered the information wasn't actually right, and I tried to
25:56
Speaker 2: question it with David McGinn. Rather than change the information,
26:04
Speaker 2: he would block me. He blocked me quite a few
26:08
Speaker 2: times on Facebook from his website, Geoengineering Watch, or whatever
26:14
Speaker 2: it is. I can't remember now off the top of
26:15
Speaker 2: my head. But he brought me in. He wouldn't allow
26:18
Speaker 2: me to talk about fuel dumps. Fuel dumps are what
26:22
Speaker 2: you see at the far end of the wings when
26:27
Speaker 2: an airplane is– land in an emergency it can't land
26:32
Speaker 2: if it's got too much fuel because the weight is
26:34
Speaker 2: too heavy and it will just fly off the end
26:36
Speaker 2: of the runway so it has to jettison the fuel
26:39
Speaker 2: and it jettisons the extra fuel before it can land
26:42
Speaker 2: it pumps it out of the end of the wings
26:45
Speaker 2: at the wing tips normally and they are often misunderstood
26:50
Speaker 2: and they are said that they are spraying chemtrails and
26:56
Speaker 2: then the So Dane wouldn't allow me to make a
27:02
Speaker 2: post on his website, on his Facebook page. We're explaining
27:07
Speaker 2: what aerodynamic trails, fuel dumps, what grey water. Grey water
27:12
Speaker 2: comes out of the towel when they are pumping out
27:14
Speaker 2: the water from the old water from the toilets and
27:18
Speaker 2: things like that, the wash basins. They call that grey water.
27:21
Speaker 2: That comes out of the towel in spurts. So it's easily,
27:27
Speaker 2: if you don't know what that is, it's easy to
27:30
Speaker 2: think that is the pumping of chemtrails. And one of
27:37
Speaker 2: the major things that made me realize that Dan Wiggin
27:41
Speaker 2: wasn't actually interested in the truth exactly was he has
27:48
Speaker 2: a big investment in saying that turbofan engines don't make trails.
27:53
Speaker 2: And he uses Willem Felderhoff. He's the man who he
28:01
Speaker 2: says is his expert who's told him this. He's an
28:04
Speaker 2: aviation expert. I think he was a pilot. So I
28:10
Speaker 2: went to... willem felderhoff's page and i asked him i
28:15
Speaker 2: said uh do you do you realize dame wigan and
28:20
Speaker 2: russ tanner are using your face to say that servo
28:24
Speaker 2: phone engines don't make trails and he was he answered
28:29
Speaker 2: quite honestly he said yeah i'm aware of that there's
28:31
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going going about on the internet
28:34
Speaker 2: and it's misleading because that's not actually what i said
28:38
Speaker 2: I tagged Dane Wiggett and Russ Sanner into the conversation,
28:42
Speaker 2: but they never changed the information on their page. They
28:46
Speaker 2: are happy misleading. It's sad that I have to say that,
28:52
Speaker 2: and I don't want to run people down because that's
28:57
Speaker 2: not really what I'm about. But they are misleading people,
29:02
Speaker 2: and it seems like they're doing it on purpose because
29:04
Speaker 2: when they're showing the truth, they won't change what they're saying.
29:06
Speaker 1: So a lot of people in the general public have
29:10
Speaker 1: bought into the chemtrail narrative as Dale Wiginton and others presented.
29:16
Speaker 1: And of course we see lots of commentary on social media,
29:20
Speaker 1: sort of just look up and so on. I mean,
29:26
Speaker 1: I take it your information is not appreciated by these
29:34
Speaker 1: people either?
29:35
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah. I get attacks from both sides. And it
29:40
Speaker 2: seems to me that both sides work together. You've got
29:45
Speaker 2: the deniers on one side, and I think of it
29:49
Speaker 2: as being two sides of the same coin. Because without
29:54
Speaker 2: people giving false information, the deniers would have nothing to
29:58
Speaker 2: deny it. They deny the false information that's given to
30:03
Speaker 2: the general public. And the general public, they block me
30:07
Speaker 2: also because they want to believe in the conspiracies that
30:10
Speaker 2: have been told. And I always get into a lot
30:14
Speaker 2: of arguments with people, the general public, when I'm trying
30:19
Speaker 2: to explain the reality of what's going on. And one
30:23
Speaker 2: of the things I always finish up asking them is, well,
30:27
Speaker 2: can you tell me, what is it about the science?
30:31
Speaker 2: What is it about the way I use science to
30:33
Speaker 2: prove chemtrails that you don't like? because I can't understand
30:37
Speaker 2: why it is if you've got someone who is, it's
30:40
Speaker 2: like they want to believe in the conspiracies rather than
30:43
Speaker 2: the truth of the chemtrails.
30:45
Speaker 1: The next thing that I wanted to touch on was, um,
30:49
Speaker 1: geoengineering and cloud seeding. And because obviously a big part
30:52
Speaker 1: of the, uh, story that we hear about chemtrails is
30:56
Speaker 1: this is, uh, you know, sort of climate change mitigation or, uh,
31:01
Speaker 1: cloud seeding and this kind of thing. Um, What are
31:04
Speaker 1: your thoughts on that?
31:06
Speaker 2: Misclassification of chemtrails into geoengineering is one of the biggest
31:11
Speaker 2: things that stalls the chemtrail fraternity. If we stopped calling
31:17
Speaker 2: chemtrails geoengineering, we would get on much further. Chemtrails are
31:23
Speaker 2: not geoengineering. Geoengineering is stratospheric aerosol injection, the blocking out
31:31
Speaker 2: of the sun, or carbon capture. It's only those two things,
31:35
Speaker 2: it's nothing else.
31:37
Speaker 1: But hold on a second, because earlier when we were
31:40
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that even on a clear blue
31:43
Speaker 1: day there's still particulate matter up there which is partly
31:46
Speaker 1: blocking out the sun, so could this not be described
31:49
Speaker 1: as geoengineering?
31:52
Speaker 2: It can, but it's not. There's this nuance of the
32:00
Speaker 2: subject that is very important to understand. Geoengineering is the
32:08
Speaker 2: intentional blocking out of the sun. Chemtrails are not intentional.
32:15
Speaker 2: They don't block out the sun. That's not the reason
32:17
Speaker 2: people fly in an airplane. They fly in airplanes to
32:21
Speaker 2: go on holiday or to take freight from A to B.
32:24
Speaker 2: They don't fly in an airplane to block out the sun.
32:27
Speaker 2: And it's the intent that makes it geoengineering, not the actual...
32:31
Speaker 2: thing that it's doing not not a trail so there's
32:34
Speaker 2: a nice study by smithsonian uh sorry an article there's
32:39
Speaker 2: a there's an article by smithsonian that calls chemtrails it
32:45
Speaker 2: calls them contrails obviously it calls them it calls the
32:48
Speaker 2: trails accidental geoengineering so they are changing the weather they
32:56
Speaker 2: are blocking out the sun but it's not intentional and
33:00
Speaker 2: geoengineering only covers intent, the intentional blocking out of the
33:05
Speaker 2: sun or the intentional capture of carbon. It doesn't cover
33:12
Speaker 2: things that happen by accident or things that are unintentional.
33:16
Speaker 2: You have to be able to come under the geoengineering umbrella.
33:22
Speaker 2: Your intent must be to cool the earth by using
33:28
Speaker 2: particulate matter. And that's the key. It's a play on words.
33:34
Speaker 2: It's a play on words. But if you read the U.S.
33:37
Speaker 2: bills that have gone through Florida and other states to
33:41
Speaker 2: put bills through to ban geoengineering, and you see in
33:46
Speaker 2: all of the bills, you see the word intent, intentional.
33:50
Speaker 2: And that's the key. chemtrails, contrails, whatever you want to
33:55
Speaker 2: call them, they're not done with that intent. So they
33:59
Speaker 2: don't come under the geoengineering umbrella.
34:01
Speaker 1: And what about cloud seeding then?
34:05
Speaker 2: Cloud seeding is another thing. It's not chemtrails and cloud
34:09
Speaker 2: seeding is not geoengineering either. Cloud seeding is something completely different.
34:15
Speaker 2: That goes on all the time. It's a multi-million pound
34:18
Speaker 2: business in every country. It goes on all the time.
34:21
Speaker 2: It's used for all sorts of different reasons. But again,
34:27
Speaker 2: it's not geo. Geo comes from the Greek. Geo is
34:36
Speaker 2: a Greek word meaning planet. So cloud seeding is not global.
34:42
Speaker 2: It's local. It's local manipulation of the weather. It's not global.
34:46
Speaker 2: So again, it's not geo. It's not geoengineering. So neither
34:51
Speaker 2: cloud seeding nor trowels are geoengineering. There's three separate things
34:57
Speaker 2: going on. Cloud seeding is much lower. It's done much
35:01
Speaker 2: lower by small aeroplanes, and they seed rain clouds. Chemtrails
35:08
Speaker 2: are much higher, and chemtrails are made of ice crystals.
35:13
Speaker 2: And then stratospheric aerosol injection is much higher again, and
35:17
Speaker 2: that's done by balloons and rockets and things like that.
35:24
Speaker 2: But that's not being done. There's no country that's doing geoengineering.
35:28
Speaker 2: It's in its infancy as a subject, and it's something
35:31
Speaker 2: that's being investigated as a system to cool the planet
35:35
Speaker 2: because they're worried about global warming. but it's not actually
35:39
Speaker 2: being done.
35:40
Speaker 1: If I witness cloud seeding, am I going to see
35:44
Speaker 1: some kind of trail in the sky?
35:47
Speaker 2: No. What you'll see is a small aeroplane flying at
35:50
Speaker 2: about 15,000 feet, and you'll see it'll disperse chemicals into
35:57
Speaker 2: the top of the cloud that's already growing. And it's
36:01
Speaker 2: a completely different... technology, they are not controlled. You will
36:07
Speaker 2: not see a trail from a cloud seeding aeroplane.
36:10
Speaker 1: Okay, and then the other thing that people share on
36:14
Speaker 1: social media and so on are flight radar 24 plots
36:18
Speaker 1: of aircraft flying backwards and forwards on parallel tracks, very
36:23
Speaker 1: tightly tied parallel tracks. What's that?
36:29
Speaker 2: That's ground surveying. You can tell by the color of
36:32
Speaker 2: the track how high the airplane is. And you notice
36:36
Speaker 2: that backwards and forwards, they go backwards and forwards and
36:39
Speaker 2: they don't miss an inch of the ground. But they're
36:43
Speaker 2: always green. The color is always green. And you can
36:47
Speaker 2: tell by flight radar, all of those apps, the color
36:52
Speaker 2: of the track, you can use the color of the
36:55
Speaker 2: tracks to determine how high the airplane is. So airplanes
36:59
Speaker 2: that leave trowels are 30,000 feet, and the track would
37:05
Speaker 2: be mauve or purple. That's the color for that height.
37:11
Speaker 2: The green tracks are much slower, and they are the
37:15
Speaker 2: ground survey planes gathering information about the ground, whether it
37:18
Speaker 2: be studying, looking for fires or studying how many trees
37:23
Speaker 2: in the area, or they might be– whatever it is
37:26
Speaker 2: they're looking at. Maybe they're trying to find– deposits of
37:34
Speaker 2: metals or valuable products on the ground or they're gathering
37:40
Speaker 2: information and that's why they don't miss an inch because
37:44
Speaker 2: they're surveying a block and they go across every single
37:49
Speaker 2: inch inside the aeroplane they're much smaller aeroplanes most of
37:58
Speaker 2: them can't fly high enough to make a trail You
38:01
Speaker 2: have to be above 30,000 feet to make a trail.
38:04
Speaker 2: And most of these survey airplanes, when you look at
38:07
Speaker 2: the flight radar, it gives you the information about which
38:13
Speaker 2: airplane is actually flying. And when you look, you'll see
38:16
Speaker 2: it's a small aircraft and it's owned by a company
38:20
Speaker 2: that is a specialist in gathering information.
38:23
Speaker 1: Earlier, you were saying that any potential aircraft blocking of
38:31
Speaker 1: the sun from, or normal airline traffic is an unintended consequence.
38:37
Speaker 1: I'm just going to challenge you a little bit on
38:40
Speaker 1: that in the sense that as far as the airline's concerned,
38:43
Speaker 1: it might be unintended, but for example, it wouldn't be
38:48
Speaker 1: that hard, it seems to me, for air traffic control
38:53
Speaker 1: or whoever's in control of the airways to cause air
38:59
Speaker 1: traffic to fly on flight paths would mitigate or minimize
39:03
Speaker 1: the amount of actual trails that are created. As we've
39:08
Speaker 1: said earlier, that doesn't make a huge amount of difference
39:11
Speaker 1: from the pollution perspective and the particulate matter is still there,
39:17
Speaker 1: but at least would allow most of the sunlight to
39:21
Speaker 1: hit the ground if necessary. So why do they not
39:26
Speaker 1: cause aircraft to fly Is it just a matter of economics?
39:32
Speaker 1: Or actually, do you think is there a tacit recognition
39:36
Speaker 1: by some of the effect of these trails and they're
39:40
Speaker 1: quite happy to see them?
39:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does make you wonder. This is a thing
39:46
Speaker 2: that you can't prove that this is done on purpose.
39:49
Speaker 2: There's no way of proving it. But when you see
39:51
Speaker 2: all of the mistakes that they're making, if you look
39:54
Speaker 2: at that, for instance, how easy it is to mitigate
39:57
Speaker 2: the trails by simply flying aeroplanes around the humid areas.
40:02
Speaker 2: So there's loads of studies by people. Scientists have been
40:05
Speaker 2: studying this for a long time. And there's loads of
40:09
Speaker 2: studies to show that just by making small changes in
40:14
Speaker 2: the flight path, they can lessen the trails by 70% overnight.
40:20
Speaker 2: And it's quite simple to do. They just have to
40:25
Speaker 2: input the areas to avoid, and then flight control can
40:33
Speaker 2: route the aeroplanes around those areas and it doesn't add
40:38
Speaker 2: very much to the time it's not a big deal
40:42
Speaker 2: it doesn't add very much to the fuel use and
40:44
Speaker 2: it doesn't add very much to the time it's very
40:47
Speaker 2: easy to do and there's lots of studies going back decades,
40:57
Speaker 2: where they've been looking at how to do this, how
41:00
Speaker 2: to mitigate the trails, because scientists understand that it changes
41:08
Speaker 2: the weather. And this is, I think, where it might
41:13
Speaker 2: feed into the global warming thing, because we... I don't
41:23
Speaker 2: want to go down conspiracy road theory, but you can't
41:28
Speaker 2: really avoid it because when you look at the– they
41:34
Speaker 2: talk about the increase in carbon dioxide and there it
41:39
Speaker 2: is that that's caused global warming. But when you look
41:42
Speaker 2: at the numbers, the increase that they're talking about from
41:46
Speaker 2: pre-industrial times to today is two watts per square meter.
41:51
Speaker 2: That's what the forcing has gone up by two watts
41:56
Speaker 2: per square meter. But Jim Hayward from the Met Office,
42:03
Speaker 2: he did a study where he found that one trail
42:08
Speaker 2: that they made over the North Sea, they watched it
42:11
Speaker 2: from satellite, and it spread across all of South England
42:15
Speaker 2: from Portsmouth up to Manchester. And he measured the warming
42:23
Speaker 2: effects of that trowel to be 30 watts per meter,
42:26
Speaker 2: per square meter. So you can see that the trowels
42:31
Speaker 2: have a much greater effect than CO2. CO2 increases only
42:36
Speaker 2: two watts per square meter. And one trowel made a
42:39
Speaker 2: difference of 30 watts per square meter. So the... When
42:45
Speaker 2: you put all of these facts together and then you
42:48
Speaker 2: see the pushback that you get from social media, the government,
42:54
Speaker 2: and all of these different places about accepting the reality
42:58
Speaker 2: of the trials we see today, When you put all
43:01
Speaker 2: this together, it's very difficult to come up with any
43:04
Speaker 2: other explanation than it's part of the carbon tax agenda
43:09
Speaker 2: because the trails actually change the weather far more than
43:13
Speaker 2: CO2 does. CO2 makes it warmer. Yeah, okay, it does.
43:17
Speaker 2: There's no two ways about that. CO2 does make the
43:20
Speaker 2: earth warmer. But clouds, we know clouds change the weather
43:24
Speaker 2: much more dramatically. If we wake up and we see
43:28
Speaker 2: on one day, wake up Monday morning and it's a
43:31
Speaker 2: lovely sunny day, and then we wake up the next
43:34
Speaker 2: day on a Tuesday morning and it's cloudy, the weather
43:37
Speaker 2: has changed completely from one day to the next. And
43:40
Speaker 2: it's changed because of the clouds. Not because CO2 has
43:43
Speaker 2: gone up and down magically in the night. The clouds
43:47
Speaker 2: change the weather far more than CO2 does. CO2 is
43:52
Speaker 2: a climate thing and clouds are a weather thing. And
43:55
Speaker 2: these two things are confused, I think, by media and
44:00
Speaker 2: by people because people don't understand the difference. There's lots
44:04
Speaker 2: of studies that have been done to show that the
44:07
Speaker 2: trails have affected the monsoon seasons in Asia and they've
44:11
Speaker 2: changed the dynamics of the monsoon seasons. All of these
44:15
Speaker 2: things are being said to be... the origin of these
44:21
Speaker 2: things are said to be carbon dioxide, when really the
44:25
Speaker 2: origin of these changes in our weather are actually the trowels.
44:28
Speaker 1: And, you know, I don't hear any pushback from the
44:31
Speaker 1: environmental brigades. You know, we're being told we've got to
44:36
Speaker 1: stop using fossil fuels for driving cars and so on.
44:42
Speaker 1: And we've got to replace gas-powered power stations. We've shut
44:47
Speaker 1: down all the coal-fired power stations. and replace them with
44:50
Speaker 1: solar panels, but this must be having an impact on
44:54
Speaker 1: the amount of electricity that can be harvested from solar
44:57
Speaker 1: panel installations.
45:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. As I said earlier, there's lots of studies
45:05
Speaker 2: where they've shown that the scientists were concerned because they
45:09
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out why there's less sunlight hitting the Earth.
45:14
Speaker 2: They documented that there's less sunlight in the Earth, but
45:19
Speaker 2: they didn't look at the particulate matter from the jet engines,
45:25
Speaker 2: from the airplanes. There always seems to be this, this
45:29
Speaker 2: always seems to be overlooked. The studies that have been
45:35
Speaker 2: done where they've looked into the mitigation of trails, where
45:40
Speaker 2: they've tried to predict the trails, and they've found that
45:43
Speaker 2: the predictions don't work anymore because the trails are occurring
45:47
Speaker 2: in places where they thought they shouldn't occur. And they
45:51
Speaker 2: can't figure out what it is. And they don't look
45:54
Speaker 2: at the ingredients that are in the fuel. It always
45:59
Speaker 2: seems to be something that's overlooked. It's staring everyone in
46:02
Speaker 2: the face. There's loads and loads of science documenting that
46:08
Speaker 2: the elements in the fuel are hydroscopic and they make
46:14
Speaker 2: the trails grow faster and last longer. There's loads and
46:18
Speaker 2: loads of science studies showing that. But it doesn't cross over.
46:22
Speaker 2: For some reason, the scientists that are looking at one thing,
46:26
Speaker 2: they don't look at the other thing. And I don't
46:27
Speaker 2: know why that is. That's a little bit of a
46:30
Speaker 2: mystery to me. I'm not sure why that is. And again,
46:34
Speaker 2: that feeds into the idea. that this has been ignored
46:37
Speaker 2: on purpose. And then it brings you back to the
46:40
Speaker 2: view that they're doing this on purpose. They're ignoring these
46:46
Speaker 2: things on purpose, and they're encouraging this to happen because
46:49
Speaker 2: it feeds into the carbon tax, the carbon tax and
46:54
Speaker 2: the carbon control.
46:55
Speaker 1: Yes, very, very interesting. Look, Len, we're just about out
46:58
Speaker 1: of time. We've talked about your website and so on.
47:03
Speaker 1: How do people find that?
47:04
Speaker 2: Chemtrails.uk And what will people find when they visit? They
47:12
Speaker 2: will find a lot of information. I'll try to write
47:14
Speaker 2: it in a way that a lame person can understand.
47:17
Speaker 2: But obviously, I've had to use a lot of science
47:20
Speaker 2: studies because it's a very scientific subject. And I have
47:23
Speaker 2: to prove that what I'm saying is right. So I
47:27
Speaker 2: have to reference science studies, but I'll try to do
47:29
Speaker 2: it in a way where the layperson can read through
47:31
Speaker 2: it and understand it. You won't find it on Google,
47:35
Speaker 2: but you have to actually type it into the URL
47:38
Speaker 2: or the address bar, and that's the only way that
47:42
Speaker 2: you'll find it. I don't know why, but it's not
47:46
Speaker 2: on Google search. So, again, that's a little bit of
47:56
Speaker 2: a funny thing because why is that? I don't know.
47:59
Speaker 2: Even if you type chemtrails.uk into Google search, you won't
48:04
Speaker 2: find my website. It's not there. It's been up and
48:08
Speaker 2: running for long enough that it should be there, but
48:11
Speaker 2: it's not. So it seems like it's something that I've
48:16
Speaker 2: been censored enough times to know that the censorship happens.
48:20
Speaker 2: And I don't want to make accusations that are unprovable.
48:25
Speaker 2: But when I see things like that happening, it does
48:28
Speaker 2: make me wonder.
48:29
Speaker 1: Well, Len, thank you very much for joining me today.
48:32
Speaker 1: It's been a fascinating conversation. I'm quite sure there's going
48:34
Speaker 1: to be some response to it. And, well, we'll let
48:39
Speaker 1: you know what that is. And maybe we'll, well, I'm
48:43
Speaker 1: sure we will speak to you again in the future.
48:45
Speaker 1: Maybe if we have lots of questions, we can address
48:48
Speaker 1: those directly.
48:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, or you can always come back to me. All
48:52
Speaker 2: of the information is on the website, chemtrails.uk. But as
48:57
Speaker 2: you're aware, I've been banned from Facebook. I don't have
49:00
Speaker 2: a Facebook page anymore. I have a lifetime ban from
49:03
Speaker 2: Facebook for sharing information like this. I am still allowed
49:10
Speaker 2: a presence on X, Len Duggan MH. You can find me,
49:16
Speaker 2: Len Duggan MH, on X. But already my profile has
49:21
Speaker 2: been restricted on X. I have a label, they call
49:25
Speaker 2: it a label. They put a label on my page
49:29
Speaker 2: as soon as I started sharing this information. I still
49:34
Speaker 2: have a presence on X, but unfortunately not many people
49:38
Speaker 2: get to see what it is I'm writing about.
49:41
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, maybe we can do something to change that.
49:44
Speaker 1: So thank you very much for joining me.