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120: Malvin Kamara - When your First Dream Dies, What’s your Next Move? · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thinking of your football career and starting moving.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I'm interested, then at what moment did you start to realise this might be it.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: This is, my football career is going to finish at some point and I'm going to have to do something about it.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I think it was when I was at Huddersfield actually I was the first manager came in Stan Turner.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: After the first manager brought me in, I was playing quite regularly in my first season and then Stan Turner came in my second season and he didn't like me.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: It was clear he didn't like me, which is fine, so I didn't really get in many of his squads.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: I was on the bench here and there and really in the reserves, which was hard to take.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: But instead of trying to prove him wrong, I maybe rebelled a little bit and then when he got got the sack and the new manager came in, lee Clark, I was like, okay, this is my chance again.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Let me let me show what I've got.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: And quite unfortunately for me, I think quite short space after he took over, I got injured.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Malvin, welcome to the show.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Good to have you on here today.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Good to be here, Ryan.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Good to be here.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Excellent.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: Now I know it's good that I'm actually catching you today out and about which, judging by as we've been communicating, I think I've caught you in just about every time zone possible, so it's good you're in one place.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, indeed, indeed, I've been in the UK for a couple of weeks now, so I'm flying out again next week, but I'm here.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: So I've been meaning to get on this with you for a while.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Love that it's good to be here, great to finally connect with you.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I know it's been a while since we've been trying to get on together.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's good.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: And, look, it should be a really fascinating conversation, one because we both played at Huddersfield Town, albeit, you know, a good 10 plus years apart.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: But good, just to track your story and really share some insights for those listening today.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Now to kick us off.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: For those who don't know who you are, tell us who you are, tell us what you're up to nowadays.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: My name is Melvin Kamara and, as Ryan said, I'm a former professional footballer.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Played for the likes of Wimbledon, cardiff and Huddersfield Town.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: But fast forward.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Today sees me as the CEO and founder of a recruitment company called Valum Associates.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: We are based in central London, we have offices in London and an office in Boston in the United States, and trying to grow and scale that organization and hopefully take it to the based in central London.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: We have offices in London and an office in Boston in the United States.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to grow and scale that organization and hopefully take it to the point of eventual sale.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I'm also a director at a cloud consulting business called Cloud Elemental.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Wow, now, that's amazing.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: You're probably one of the first people who I'm speaking to who are saying yeah, yeah, office in London.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking he's going to say I thought you were going're gonna say Bolton or something like that, but here you can jump straight into Boston.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: I quite like that.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: What made you pick Boston first?
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: What was going on there?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: uh, it was really because, uh, obviously recruitment is is a well-established market in the in UK and Europe and in in America.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: It's probably a lot younger and obviously, with the the scales of economy in the states, obviously the fees are so large over there as you can imagine places like new york, boston, they're inflated salaries, so the potential uplift in terms of revenue is huge over there and also because recruitment isn't saturated and it's such a a larger country, recruitment consultants are actually have a good reputation over there currently, whereas obviously in the UK and Europe, such a saturated market our reputations aren't, as as say, positive here.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: But so it's no, it's a great opportunity over there and we've got a team that are trying to make waves and establish ourselves in in the country.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: You know, that's amazing.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: I suppose I've never really thought about recruitment and how it is so different in various markets, but you mentioning that in the US it's not as saturated as you said.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good to know.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: An interesting thing.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: How did you figure that out?
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Was it being there yourself or some other intel that was like hey, there's a great opportunity.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: You see the trends and the size of the opportunity and I think, working as we do currently from the UK market, we work currently from the UK market, we work globally from the UK office and you know, in terms of talking about with some of our clients who have headquarters over there or who have offices over there and they've asked us to support them on certain initiatives, we kind of saw how large the fees were.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: We did, I suppose, a pilot with one of our US-based banks and quite quickly, I think we worked with them for around five months and they were in our top three of in terms of revenue spend with us for that year.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: So we were quite quickly like wow, there's a lot of money to be made over there.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: So that was kind of our pilot or our proof of concept, if you will.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: So that really kind of ignited the fires and we see it anyway in terms of trends and some of the other players in recruitment that were opening offices over there and the traction and the success that they're having.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: So it was a no brainer for us in terms of expanding the organization and we always wanted to have kind of a global footprint.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: So the US market is one which is kind of high on our agenda as a board to crack, which will hopefully give us the strength and make us some more appealing for in the future for someone to come and acquire the organization.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I love the fact you've got that plan already so clear in terms of how you're wanting to build the business and what that exit or partnership plan looks like in the future.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Is that something you feel you've learned to do through business, or was it something you've kind of always had with you?
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: No, no, it's been a case of actually so, particularly with myself is I come with a certain set of skill sets and what I what's happened over the years is I might sound a bit hippie-ish, but I think my energy and my drive in terms of what I'm trying to create has attracted the right people at the right times.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: So because of that, you know, people have come along that have got previous experience in this and have been able to, I suppose, teach me and enlighten me into the ways that this should be done.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: My CFO is a chap from Harvey Nash who's been and structured multiple deals when it comes to exiting and exit strategy, so he's been integral to what we're doing here and how we're building this.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly not hippie-ish at all.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: Quite interesting, I would say, say, and what I like is, I guess, true to values.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: In fact, one of the most interesting bits you said there was that you come with a certain set of skills, and thinking of that, that sounds to me a great time for us to go and and actually come back a bit into your sporting background, because I'd love to build, to understand that, your recognition of what your set of skills are.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: And so you know, I know we opened up football.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: That's something that you're doing.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Take me back then.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Did you have a passion for football?
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Was that something that ran strong in your family?
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, I think, from an early age.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: A big brother and a dad.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: My dad supported Tottenham and then, in true fashion, my eldest brother decided to support Arsenal, just to probably spite my dad.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: So me and my twin brother ended up as Arsenal fans as well, and it was really, I think, him and his passion for football which initially had my own passion.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really interested in it when I was really young, but he was really passionate and him and my twin brother are super Arsenal fans.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: They're super passionate supporters.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: So I think I kind of piggybacked off that and then once I'd played and and would play with him and his friends, that's where my first interest began and I think, you know, he was a good footballer himself.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: His friends were good footballers.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: I was playing with them.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: They were like six years older than me, so I think that fast-tracked my development as a footballer because I was having to get good to be able to compete with these guys.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: So that's where my first love began and obviously I was really young at the time 7, 8, and then went on to do, you know, with my twin brother playing for the schools, playing for Sunday League teams, and there was just a natural development there and I think my competitive edge and actually something which fast forward to today has enabled me to be successful in business is that drive was really developed at a really young age for me.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I remember playing against my twin brother in the garden one vote for 1v1 and sometimes he'd be like right, I'm going in.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: And I'd be like, no, come on, let's keep playing.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: And I'd sometimes stay out and just play by myself against the wall and what I didn't realize, you know, looking back at that time, that was the hunger developing in me to be successful at something.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: I didn't see it as that at the time.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to play football, but you know, when I look back and actually look at what that is, that's kind of the competitor in me.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: That's the, the hunger in me and the desire to get better, want to compete.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: That was that was all formulated at a very, very young age.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: And when we went on to play for our Sunday League teams, I remember I was the one after each game.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: I remember our first season in particular in Sunday League.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: We weren't very good as a team and we lost, I think, most games and we got relegated and I would cry after every single game I'd cry my eyes out and you know that.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Know, that was again the competitor in me.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Everyone was like this baby here, but it was.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: I was just so hungry to win and so upset that we lost that I just couldn't handle it.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: I would cry and again, when I look back on it, that's the competitor in me not wanting it, being prepared and that time obviously being a bit immature, not able to handle failures.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: But that was again the difference between me and the people I was playing with.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Whereas they would say, oh, we lost, we'll go home, I was like I wouldn't accept it and it hurt me to the core to lose.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: And you know I look back on these things.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, actually that is the competitor in me starting to develop and that's what gave me the drive that I have to this this very day yeah, yeah, that sense, that feeling, the drive and you speak about that and I hear it a lot in getting comfortable, just repeating things, getting out and practicing harder.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: And you know, like you said, even when your brother left, you were still out there doing that same thing.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: When did you realize you were good?
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: When was that?
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: I think it was in in prime quite early on in primary school I think I was.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I was uh.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: There was a clear uh gap that started to form quite early on in primary school.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: I think there was a clear gap that started to form quite early on actually between me and the people that I played with, and by the time we got to year six I think it was year six in primary school and me and my brother were playing, it was me and him that were just scoring all of the goals between the two.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: He was a very good player as well, actually when we were a lot younger Still a good player now but particularly when we were younger there wasn't much between me and him.
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Again, I think the only differential actually between me and him at that age was that I kind of was a lot hungrier for it than he was.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: He had passions in other things singing.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: He was only such a singer to this day so he had other things which probably took his energy away from focusing on football.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: But there wasn't a lot between us, particularly in the early years.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: You know he was very good, but I think between the two of us we were, we were by far, I think, the best players in our in our primary school and that went on in actually to to secondary school where, quite early on again, my passion had really developed by that point and I ended up playing for the district and then going on to play for West Ham at a really young age and kind of.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: That's where I think the biggest gap formed, particularly between me and my brother, because I'll say he was focused on other things such as singing, which was a great passion.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: He's a fantastic singer, so he had other things where he was spending his energy and I was surely focused on football.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: That was it.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: I knew from the age of, I'd say, eight or nine that I was going to be a professional footballer in some capacity.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I didn't know to what level, but I knew there was something in me that told me very early on I was going to be a professional footballer.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: So much so.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I remember in secondary school when we had you know when the people come in to do career fairs and they talk about what you want to be when you're older, and I told her I'm going to be a professional footballer and obviously she tried to talk that out on me I'll be realistic and I was like yeah, I was like, no, there's there's no further conversation to be had here if you're not going to listen to them.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: I'm telling you I'm going to be a footballer and I had so much belief in that, so much belief it was.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I just knew it.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: There was a, I had a almost an intuition that I'm gonna be a professional footballer.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: I knew it.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: And then that hunger was was so strong in my, in me, that there was no other option.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: There was no option but to be a footballer.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And you know, I look back on my career and I can almost pinpoint the point that I lost that feeling in me and that complacency set in and that was the beginning of the downfall talk to me what?
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: what was that moment?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: What changed for you to pinpoint where that passion left you?
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: it was complacency in fact it was 100 complacency that because I'd had this feeling for so long and then it'd come to fruition, where I actually made it as a footballer I was.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: Just part of me was like, well, this is it, I've done, it've done it, I've done the hard work.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I knew I was going to get here.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Now the rest is already written, I don't need to try anymore.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Which was a mistake in hindsight, and I remember I'd got to the point at it was when we was at Wimbledon and I made my professional debut quite young and then we went.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: They made the transition to MK Dons and I went with them and again I had all that hunger, that fire, and I remember one season I was on absolute fire and there was all articles.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: I remember my brother coming up going you're in the newspaper At the time.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: I think it was Middlesbrough and someone were going to be coming in to sign me.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: So it was at the time.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: They were all in the Premier League.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: There was man City, middlesbrough and Blackburn I think I was linked with, and at that time I was like, well, this is it, I've done it.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: And the move didn't come to fruition.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: I remember actually at the time, mk Don's Women would come into the airport as I was going on holiday, sign your contract quickly and in hindsight I knew why they were doing that, so I didn't end up going on a free transfer elsewhere, but I signed the contract and then all of the kind of interest kind of died away.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: But interest kind of died away, but I was still just like, as I say, one, I was a bit upset that they the move hadn't happened.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: But also, two, I was a bit complacent that I would get a move anyway.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: And that was at that point and I think arrogance and things like that played definitely played a part in me not being as hungry or as direct in terms of what I wanted and losing that vision for my career.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: And that's definitely the point where where things started to take a downward spiral when you look back at that moment now.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Well, how do you feel?
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: I think it took me a while to come to terms and, to be honest, I probably didn't even realize it until when I stopped playing and actually I'd come out of that transition period, that dark period where you know you're trying to figure out life and life is coming at you really fast.
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: I don't have the time to sit back and reflect on kind of what went right, what went wrong, what did I learn.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't until my life started to go on in that trajectory again that I was able to actually look back on my career A with fondness and recollect it for the fun times I had, but also start to take some learnings from what I did wrong and be able to accept those things.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: Because you know you, it's almost the blame game.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: You know anyone but yourself when you're hurting in the early years.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: But you know, once you come out of that and you're able to look back on my career and actually think about, okay, what did I actually do wrong?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: That was definitely one of the most pivotal moments in my career, where the downward spiral started and I was taking for granted, I definitely took my foot off the pedal rather than to think actually I need to shift up a gear here.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: You know, now that I've made it and I'm starting to develop a name for myself, this is the time to shift up to the next gear.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: I did the opposite and shifted down, thinking this I'm in cruise control here.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: I just this is going to be, this is my forever.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Now, this is what I made it and and that, in hindsight, was the biggest mistake that I made.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: And I think the second mistake that I made was was not relying on the support of, like my brothers.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: I'd always had them growing up in football in some some capacity either to talk to or to come and watch or to play with.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And again, you know, when I went through that period of leaving to go to I think it was maybe after more after MK Dons when I went to Cardiff of not ensuring they were in my life as my support network, getting them to games, being with them, spending time with them, I kind of lost that which was support, which I didn't know was support at the time, but I just was like again, I've made it, I don't need anyone.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: This is all easy.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And in hindsight, hindsight, looking back on it, if I'd have done those two things actually at that point when I didn't get the move, say, right, it's fine, you had that pick, the eyes are on you.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Now go up another level, really, really push this next season, because everyone's going to be looking at you and you can go and secure that move.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: But and secondly, getting my brothers around me to one, not not keep me grounded I didn't need that.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I was always fairly humble when I played but just have them as my support network and be able to talk to them, spend time with them as my family and and really recognize that I'm doing it for them as much as I'm doing it for myself, which again, I lost that perspective on it.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: You know, those were the two biggest mistakes I made, definitely when playing when playing, you know, talking about finding that next gear.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: So when, when the performance matters is finding that next gear to push you forward, to demonstrate you can do more, actually, that you're not full, you're not finished, don't be complacent and keep striving and keeping your support network around you.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: And it is interesting because you did describe that as not to keep you grounded or to keep you humble, but actually to help you or remind you of the purpose, remind you that the drive isn't well, it's not just kicking the ball, but it's for yourself, it is for the family as well.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Now, I think that's really interesting and I think we're gonna come back to that, because I can hear certain links there with what you're striving for now and where you're pushing your business to that next level.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: It's not just one office here, but it's well.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: What does global look like?
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: What does that piece?
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: What's that next step really for you?
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: But before we go there, I wanna just pick on whilst you are coming through school and whilst you recognize hey, I'm a footballer, no more careers, doesn't matter what else you wanna tell me, it's football.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: What was happening for you from an academic perspective?
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Where did school and school work fit into into your early career?
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: you know, I was quite again me.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: It was really weird, me and my brothers, that our academic lives were quite because we're twins, but we were quite parallel when it came to things that I was again.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: I was a competitor, so I didn't want to lose in anything and I was quite fortunate, coming from I don't want to say super strict, but a fairly strict kind of African household.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Education was always high on on the priority list.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: So, and I was naturally I wasn't gifted, don't get me wrong, but I was able to have a fun, have fun, have a good time but also absorb information.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So, with not that much effort actually, I was able to, at the right times, get my head down, cram for a test and actually do pretty well at that test.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: So you know, that process of educating myself was fairly one I found actually fairly easy, you know, and whilst we didn't I said I wouldn't say we knocked out our um, our gcses, out the park we did well and it was actually weird, me and my brother got exactly the same, the same marks.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Both got one a star, I think, one a star, two or three a's, four b's, two c's, so we both did fairly well in our exams and and again.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: That was with, I would say I don't say minimal effort, but I didn't have to work that hard to achieve those grades and I wasn't studying for months before.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: It was literally the night before a test.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: I would see what tests I have in the morning, spend a couple of hours revising the night before.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: Obviously I'd retained some information from from from my lessons.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: But so I understood the basic premise of what we were, what we were going to be tested on.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: But the real kind of cramming came a day or two before that's.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Well, that's, that was our study regime.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: We'd both do it, we'd look at our exam timetable and one or two nights before each exam we would just shift our focus onto those, onto those lessons.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: And that's what we did for our GCSEs.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: My brother would play every morning he's tape whilst we got ready to go to our exams of music.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: He'd be singing along in that, to that in the bathroom and we'd both go do the exams and come out and just play football or something.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: So our exams and education, education was pretty easy and then, obviously, after we got the results, we were both pretty pleased with them.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: He went on to further education.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: I left to go and do full-time football.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: But yeah, our education and my passion for football didn't.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say maybe it didn't impact my education that much, maybe I would have.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: You didn't have to compromise.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: No, no, I didn't have to compromise.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: No, no, I didn't have to.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: And I think, again, that was just through a bit of strict discipline from our parents in terms of educating ourselves.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Also, I didn't again the competitor in me.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to be stupid, I was just like I can't be known as I don't want to.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I'm competitor here.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: So if I'm doing something, I'm going to do it properly.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to fail, and it was that kind of drive to not fail that enabled us to do fairly well in in our exams yeah, that I like that that drive to not fail.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: but you had this natural competitiveness and it's probably something I need to look back on all these different conversations I've had between those who are twins, those who are significantly younger than elder siblings and those who then are only child, and it seems I think a lot of the athletes that I speak to I'm recognizing this pattern certainly from that elite status.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: But you have where every day is a competition, whether you realized it or not 100%.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: And me being the youngest, and I think both my brothers fair to say, probably naturally stronger than I am like naturally, definitely, when we were kids, I was the weakest out of the three of us, so that meant that I was always battling from a very young age and I think that's what kind of drove I was like right, I am going to be better than you at something.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: So whatever we did and and you know actually that gamification that you know, my brothers didn't even know I was competing with them, but I was competing to be better than them at whatever it is we did because I wanted to be the best.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: And that gamification is something that I've taken through my whole life, even going into when I first started in recruitment, my whole thought process was almost treated it like a, like a football club.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I was like, right, we're all teammates, we're all colleagues, but I'm gonna be the best player.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: You don't know, I'm competing with you, but I'm competing with you at everything.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: And that was kind of my mindset when I first even went into recruitment and I thought, actually I can do.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: This was like let me identify who the best players are, I'm going to copy you, I'm going to watch you and I'm going to train to the point where I'm better than you.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: And yeah, my colleagues at the time when I first started didn't even know I was competing with them, but I was.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I was competing with them every day well, let's get to that point now.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: So, thinking of your, your football career and you know, and starting moving, I'm interested.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Then, at what moment did you start to realize this might be it.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: This is, my football career is going to finish at some point and I'm going to have to do something about it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I think it was when I was at Huddersfield, actually I was first.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: The manager came in, stan Turner, after the first manager brought me in, I was playing quite regularly in my first season and then Stan Turner came in my second season and he didn't like me.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: It was clear he didn't like me, which is fine, so I didn't really get in many of his squads.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: I was on the bench here and there and really in the reserves, which was hard to take.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: But instead of trying to prove him wrong, I maybe rebelled a little bit.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: And then when he got the sack and the new manager came in, lee Clark, I was like OK, this is my chance again, let me show what I've got.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: And quite unfortunately unfortunately for me, I think quite short space after he took over, I got injured.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a career for an injury, but it was a fairly long term one.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: I was out for about nine, ten months, which meant that my contract was coming up for renewal and he kind of never even seen me play.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: So he was like look, I'm going to get rid of you, I'm going to bring in my own players and use that, for obviously he's got a finite budget that he needs to use.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: He wanted to allocate that to bringing his own players, which I understood.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: At that point I'd been out for around 10 months, nearly a whole season.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: That meant trying to secure a contract, coming back to fitness, secure a contract elsewhere, having not played for a season.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: That was tough, I wasn't fit, I hadn't really played on my knee.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: You have that psychological battle that you have to go through to get back to full fitness.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Is the injury right, is it not right?
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: And I was trying to win a contract.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So I went to a couple of places.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I went Bradford, I went Gillingham, but oh, I was playing at mainly probably 50% of my actual capability.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I wasn't fit, I hadn't played, I had to get that touch back.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: And trying to win a contract when you're rusty as hell is difficult.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: So I couldn't.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I couldn't secure one, and that it was at that point when I had to I to take a long hard look at what, what I was doing in my life.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: I think I was 26, 27, 26, 26, 27 and I was like looking around, league one, league two, and obviously you know that the salaries at that time was comparable to probably what I was earning around £60,000 to £100,000 a year.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: And actually when you start to understand salaries in the real world and you can actually start to look at your personal cash flow.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking to myself well, if I'm on £1,000 a week and I can do that for the next five years, by the time I'm 30, it's not a lot of cash actually to say you've got to sustain a life.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: So I was looking at myself.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Just be like, right, I can do this, I can probably.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: And at that point I think I realized the Premier League dream is almost over.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I couldn't see it for myself anymore at that point.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: So then I'm thinking to myself well, I can play lower league until I'm 30 early, you know, mid-30s.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: And then I'm thinking to myself well, I can play lower league until I'm 30, mid-30s, and then I'm going to have to transition into a job, and that's going to be a whole lot more difficult at that age than it is now.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: So I'm probably best off saying adieu to the professional football world and go and try and make a life for myself outside of football.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: So that's the decision that we took to try to secure the contracts at those clubs.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: How did you make that decision?
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I didn't know how I was having a daughter as well my firstborn was due and thinking I've got to provide for this girl now, and that was what really drove my decision.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I thought I need to have a stable, long-term future to be able to provide as a father and football's not going to give me that.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to earn enough money that when I'm 35, 40, I can win my hand on my heart that I'm going to be able to provide a good life for this child.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: So I knew that I needed to start a career and do something.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: To the point where I was 35, 40, I was going to be in a position to be earning and be able to provide a life for my children.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: So that was kind of really what drove the decision.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: It was no longer just about me and what I wanted.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: It was about there was a child that was about to come to the world, who I was going to be and again, I'm fairly old-fashioned in that sense that it's my job to provide for the family, it's my job to look after her, and that was what really I was like right, I need to be able to provide for this kid, I need to be able to put a good roof on her head.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I need.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: She needs to grow up in a nice home and I can't see myself being able to provide that with confidence with what I'm doing in lower league football.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: So that's what was the real driving factor, because I probably would have just played semi-pro, gone to the conference, tried to get back into league two and build myself back up.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: That I probably would have done that if it was just me.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: But it wasn't just me anymore.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: You know, there was someone else that was in the equation that shift of focus.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: It a child does do, that having a partner certainly does.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: But there is that shift of focus when you have a child and, like you've just described, that's something that can, for many, change your perspective, change your outlook on again, who are you doing this for?
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: And you know what, then, is that purpose?
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: It shifted you away from that premier league dream and it made your second guess well, how long can you continue in this career?
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: So what did you do when you got to that decision?
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: What came next?
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: yeah, oh god, it's a bit of a blur, to be honest, but I think I was then just trying to say the first thing I did was OK, what am I good at?
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: That was the first question I asked myself what am I good at?
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: What do I think I can go and do?
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: And again, because me and my brother had done fairly well in our education, I always knew that education was something.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: And I also looked at who I am and my personality and what I'd learned a little bit in football and I thought, well, I don't want to be an agent.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: That market was fairly saturated at that time.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: I don't really have that much interest in being that ingrained in the sport.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: And then I thought, well, actually I want to move away from that and maybe become a presenter.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I always thought I'd be good at presenting.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: So I used the PFA avenue for education and I went to do a sports and journalism course and my view was that I would do that because it was an easier path into the media world using my football background.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: And then I would transition into entertainment and I thought that's what I can do.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: I can be an entertainer, I can be a presenter.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: So that's the avenue that I first went down.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: I still think I can be, by the way, but you know that's what I thought I'd do.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: So I went back to uni to do a sports journalism course and actually part of the modules was the law in terms of libel and all that kind of stuff.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: We were having a lesson fairly on into the course with one of the law modules and I remember the teacher at the time saying to us it was all footballers, ex-footballers, on this course because it was PFA funded and I was at Loughborough Uni and I remember being in this class and the teacher said to us well, listen, when most of you guys get your degrees and you actually go into this, it's not that high paying.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: The maximum you'll probably look to earn is 30 or 40 thousand pound a year.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: And I remember I sat there I was like and again, because of the journey I'd been on, I was probably lacking in self-confidence a little bit, forgetting what my actual plan was was to go into this transition into the world of Ant Dec etc.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: That's what my original thought process was.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: But I'd forgot that very quickly when he said that to me and I was like what?
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I remember the class finished and I just got my bags and left.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I'm not doing that, that's not enough money for me to provide the life that I want to do.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: And I never even finished the course.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I didn't go back again.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, that's not acceptable for me.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: A bit short-sighted at the time there's a real very short-sighted but I left the course.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I didn't finish the course, I just left.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I was like I'm not, I'm not going to be prepared to accept that I'm I'm going I was about to give you kudos for saying it's great that you tapped into the pfa when got funded, started doing the education path it's like I'm gonna yeah I left I did.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I did it for like three, four months and I was like, nah, that's not that.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: No, no, I'm not accepting that, that's not what I'm doing.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: And then I kind of started to go into the working world thing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: I could be good at sales.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: I'm a people person, I can be good at sales.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: So I started getting odd jobs here.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: I did one selling Wi-Fi, which was actually no salary, but they did it on the premise that if you get good, you could own your own office.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: And that was my first venture into business ownership, entrepreneurship.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh wow, that sounds good, I could own an office doing so.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: I did that and they taught me kind of the fundamentals of sales in these quick workshop things.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: And we'd go out knocking on doors and I was door knocking in yorkshire in the winter and, as you can imagine, as a young black guy knocking on people's doors in part of war or yorkshire didn't go down well.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I had the police called on me a couple of times just trying to sell people wi-fi and I was like this isn't going to go anywhere, so ended up then leaving there to go and sell it's a funny the situation, but I have to say so.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: When I so, I was in um lyon.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: So after union moved down to lyon in southern france and we were selling, I was then door-to-door sales, selling telephone.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Uh, one tell the international telephones and you could phone internationally.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I was selling TalkTalk.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: It's a rite of passage, talktalk, wi-fi.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: It is, yeah, similar.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: There's me knocking on doors, speaking French poor French, I guess trying to sell these things.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that didn't end Well, it ended quickly anyway, so.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, didn't go.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I remember knocking on this lady's door and she was like what do you want?
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: We don't have anything.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: I'm like what, I'm trying to say your Wi-Fi?
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: She was like no, I'm going to call the police.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: And she did.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: She called, I left.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I started knocking on the neighbor's houses and then, five minutes later, this police car rolls up and I had to show them all my IDs Look, I'm selling Wi-Fi.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: And they were like oh, look, we think it's best you leave.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: So I was like right, okay.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: And then literally I was like right, I'm quitting, that's it.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to be subject, I'm not a criminal, I'm not going to be treated like a criminal.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: So I left the job.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: I didn't go back the next day.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I was like.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: So during this period, you've stopped being a professional, full-time, professional footballer.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: You're getting harassed by the police as you're knocking on doors trying to earn a living.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: What was this period like for you?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Like emotionally?
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: What was?
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: this like this was.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: It was tough and again because again I'd well, I'd felt that I kind of not engaged my brothers during my football career I didn't have really anyone that I could speak to about these challenges I was having.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: I could have in hindsight, but I didn't, so I was kind of dealing with this just internalising kind of these struggles, Didn't have many people that I feel I could speak to or talk to and again, mistakenly, thinking I needed to be the strong father, I figured my daughter had been born, I needed to be the provider, so I felt I needed to be the strong father figure.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: My daughter had been born, I needed to be the provider, so I needed to.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Just I felt I needed to show that strength.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: So, looking back on it, I internalized everything, did speak to anyone about any of the struggles I was having and and I remember at that point we I was renting with the little money that I had left from football.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: We were renting this apartment in Wakefield and I was paying for that.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: And again my misguided thought process was like I can't talk to my partner, she can't know that I'm struggling, so I'm still going to pay for all the food, I'm going to pay for all the rent.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to reach out to her for help or support.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: This has to be.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: I have to do it.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: It has to be me, me, me, this is my job.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: So quite quickly started to struggle financially.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: I remember one point when my daughter was a baby, I had no money in the account I couldn't pay for milk.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I had to call my mate, max, to send me money to pay for milk for my daughter.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I had to pay my phone bill and it was at that point when I had nothing left.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: He was having to give me money for the basics and then the rent was going to be.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I had to say to the missus look, I can't afford this anymore.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: And at the time she was actually way more understanding than I thought she was going to be.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: She was like, ok, we'll move back to her.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: We ended up moving her back to her mum, her mum or her dad's, I can't remember.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: We moved back in with her parents and then I was like, right, I've got to get a real job here.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: There's jobs of grandeur where I'm going to potentially own an office, or this isn't going to happen.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I need to go, and so that I can provide the basics.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: So that was when I was.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: I remember at that point I was in Yorkshire and we were living in South Yorkshire and not everyone is racist in South Yorkshire.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: But we experienced.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: My daughter was born and we were in Wakefield.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: We experienced, we had a couple of instances of quite bad racism and I was just like I can't be in Yorkshire, this isn't the place that I'm going to be able to provide.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: So I ended up looking for jobs in London with a view that we would move down to London.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: So that's what I did.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: I got my first recruitment job in London on £20,000 a year at a company called Venquis and I started there.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: So we moved back in with my mum.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: So we all moved down.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: Mrs picked up, she got a job in London.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Little had moved down, we moved with my mum, so we're living in the attic room of my mum's house and I got the first job in recruitment.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: But again at that time, looking in hindsight, I was playing semi-pro football as well on the weekends to earn as much money as possible and I spent no time as a family when my little one was a baby.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I wasn't neglecting that part of my life, I was just purely focused on trying to make money.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: So it was no fault that my missus she was a young mum and so I was kind of was neglecting them.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't long before she was like homesick.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: She was like I need to go back to yorkshire, I can't do this here.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: So she packed up, brought my daughter back up to yorkshire I was still working in london.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: I was like, well, I can't quit this job.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: It's paying me a salary I can't quit.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: So I was then traveling every weekend on the bus back to Yorkshire to see them going back down for work on the Sunday night on the Megabus.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: We did that for years, just while we were trying to get our foot back on that first rung of the ladder living at our parents' houses.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: That's harsh, yeah, yeah, it was a tough time, tough, tough time.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: What was the toughest part for you at that moment?
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: I?
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: think it was a couple of things the uncertainty and at the time, in hindsight, definitely forms of depression in terms of not knowing what to do, feeling a bit of a failure, not knowing what my future held for me and not also having that outlet to talk to people, not feeling I had that support network at the time and again part of my own doing, but not just reaching out to people for help, saying, look, I'm struggling with this, what do I do?
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I need help, kind of thing.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: And luckily, obviously it worked out okay for me.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: But you know there were definitely things that I would do differently.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: Now I found myself in that situation again and you know, know, as I say, I was quite fortunate that after just after under three years well, after the first year I got really good at the job, I started to make a bit more, more money and then, when my daughter was three unbeknownst to me, even though I had been paying for everything, my, my missus was was saving all of her cash, so she had the money for our first flat.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: So we ended up putting a deposit on a flat and that was really the start of life improving.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: We moved into the flat.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: My daughter was three going on four, I think yeah, three going on four.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: And she had her first bedroom that wasn't at one of her parents' houses.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: So, you know, I started to feel like a bit of a man again.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: I ended up then taking on the mortgage for that flat.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: It was a really small mortgage in like three, three hundred pound, four hundred pound a month repayment.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: So it's like fantastic, you know, we've got our own property, we've got a foot on the property ladder again.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Life is on the up and then it was a few years a year or two, I forget moving into that flat that.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Then I ended up getting a new job as a startup consultancy that wanted me to to help them set up this consultancy and and I was only earn a percentage in the business and that was kind of my first time I'd gone into something like that.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: I tried to set up other businesses failed.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: It led money from from my my friends who were playing in the premier league at the time to set up an online fashion.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: It was actually quite innovative at the time.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: Desktop based online e-commerce fashion website didn't even launch that, but I learned a lot in terms of how not to set up a business.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Ended up going on this business venture with these people that were setting up a consultancy again.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: That failed after six months, but that's where I left recruitment to go and do that with them, and at that point I was then started to interview in different places and then a client of mine called me up.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I was like, hey, listen, we need your help with something, can you help us?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, sure, I'm looking for a job, but I've got time on my hands, I'll do this.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: So ended up successfully doing it and I'd accepted a job actually at that time to go and sell security services for like the likes of bbc.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: If they were like presenting in yemen or whatever and they needed to get out because of conflict, this company would provide that security detail to get them out of hot spots and stuff.
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: So so I ended up accepting the job to do that.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Football.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: You did all right at school.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: You got partway through a degree.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: How is that linked to all of these different job or these different industries where look for me listening I'm thinking you don't know anything about those things.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I was just learning as I went along.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: I was just literally just learning.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Even the failed ventures that I did, I can genuinely say hand on heart from every single one of them there was something that I learned that I could use in the next thing that I was doing to make myself the more complete individual to do that job.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Even the talk talk one that I did, I remember I learned things sales techniques, the Jones effect building rapport even though I only did it for a short period of time.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: There were so many things that the learning curve into sales was so steep.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: I learned so much from that first job, even though I made zero money.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: In fact I lost money because we weren't we weren't salaried, we were paying our own money to travel around and it was all commission based.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: So I actually lost money because I didn't make many sales.
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: But I learned so much that it was invaluable.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I'd have paid double what I paid.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Even I didn't have money at the time.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: But, as I said, I was learning from each iteration and each new job that I did and each experience I had.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: Even the the course that I did in loughborough again learned elements about legal.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I learned little things from each thing that I was doing.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: And then you know, when this company contacted me to do this work for them remember I'd taken a job and the job offer I was like okay, I'm really murdering here, I'm starting, and they'd offered me 50,000 pounds a year as my base salary for this new job and I was like that's not a bad income.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to do all right.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: Again this company contacted me to do this piece of work for them and I did it successfully.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: And that one job in particular was I.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: And that one job in particular was, I think it was like 20,000 pounds, and I was like, whoa, hold on a minute, I could just do this.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: And that was kind of my epiphany.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: I was like I needed a company and a vehicle with which to invoice them.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: So I remember speaking to my partner saying, hey, listen, I'm going to set my own recruiting company.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And then that was it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I did it.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I thought I'll give it six months.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: So that six months again, again.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: My, that's where the competitive in me really came.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: I was like, right, I've got to go for it.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: And I literally just had a laptop, a mobile phone.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: I was working from home, I was working from hotel lobbies.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: So I'm gonna smash this.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: So I did.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: In six months I made more money than I've ever made over a six month period, than I've ever made in my life, and I was like whoa, hold on a minute.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: And then I had a real.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: That December I remember I was like I'm back, wow, I had all this cash around me and I remember I took some friends out and I bought a table in central London, spent thousands of all this champagne and all this stuff for them, thinking I'm back, I'm the man again.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: And then, um, that January, the first email of that January, after I'd'd been only going for six, seven months, I was due to invoice a client again around £20,000.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: But the first email I woke up at my mum's house, opened up my laptop and the first email was this candidate backing out of the job offer.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: He'd emailed the client directly and I just had an email from the client saying, well, this is a surprise.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: That was the first email I opened in 2016.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: And then I remember I just closed the laptop and went back to bed.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: I was like Jesus.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: And then it was actually that what I didn't know was actually the making of where we are today, because I was like, actually, no, I'm going to refill that job.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: And actually, not only am I going to refill that job, I'm going to build an organization, I'm going to start hiring.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And so that was when I first thought I'm going to turn this into a real company.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: So that was where, early 2016, that I was like right, I was on the mission to go and create an organization at that point.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: So that's where it all went and then ended up, I think, about a year later, hiring the first employee, and then it grew from there.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: So in 2017, we got the first employee.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: I had some business partners at the time that I bought in and we went on a journey around 2000.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Between then and 2019 got to around eight people in the organization.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: We had a small office in london bridge and then at that point, I kind of reached the maximum because I had limited.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Remember I had had no experience building a company, managing people, vat I had none of that.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I was learning as we went.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Vat returns, corporation tax all of this was new to me.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Payroll everything was new.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Just as we went, I was Googling stuff.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: I had people doing certain things.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I had to check the tax returns.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: I was checking tax returns.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I was checking payroll every month.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: I was setting up so I was basically doing finance, operations, sales.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: I was doing everything to keep the company.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: That's where I lost my teeth.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: Stress was was through the roof because I was doing all these different jobs.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: And then in 2019 I met.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: I was introduced by a good friend of mine to my current my now business partner because I was actually looking at setting up another recruitment business.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: And I remember I left his office and he called me up after the meeting, was like don't do it.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: And I was like why?
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: He's like listen, you were in the meeting and my phone was because, again, I was, I was the company, my phone was, I was caught, was probably ringing every three minutes.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: My phone would go and he was like you, you're on the cusp of something, but let me help you.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: So I was like okay.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: So he came in, he looked at the company.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: He sent his guy in who's now my CFO, to kind of do an audit.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: So Phil came in, did an audit on the company and his report was like you've got the makings of something here, you've got a great brand reputation, you're doing okay and we weren't making a lot of revenue at the time, but it was still again me doing everything.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: It was like we can build around this.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: So they they joined me and with a view that they were actually going to help me scale to acquire me into their much larger group.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: They were working for 110 million pound turnover business and they were making acquisitions all over the place to to grow the company to to a point of eventual, and they'd got private equity involved and all this kind of good stuff.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: And at that point this was the year before COVID.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Covid then hit.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: But the way they'd structured the deal meant they would either be penalized or incentivized in terms of shares to either claw back or pay out based off of their future revenue projections.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: But where COVID hit wiped off a number of revenue instantly.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: That triggered certain things that the private equity firm collections.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: But where COVID hit wiped off a number of revenue instantly.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: That triggered certain things that the private equity firm ended up owning way more than they should have done.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: So my now business partners were in a position where they were like, well, we've lost control of the company.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: So they were like, well, we're no longer going to help you scale to acquire you.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: We actually want to leave, can we join you?
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: So I was like, yeah, absolutely Due to form.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: They were like like, look, uh, we'll put our money where our mouths is.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: We, this is what we want to achieve in terms of share.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: So I ended up buying the shares back from my current business partners, who were great guys, but they'd never done recruitment before, so they weren't really helped able to help me scale.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: They didn't have the knowledge or the experience.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: It's not what they did, so ended up buying the shares back off them.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: And my current business partner was like, look, we'll do 12 months, put five percent aside now, so we know you're not gonna, and then after 12 months, if you're a man of your word, we'll renegotiate the share ownership.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: And that's what they did.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: So they came in and were phenomenal bags and I was learning.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: My learning curve was so steep with them in terms of actually what scaling and the business looked like a potential exit, how that could be structured.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: I was.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I'm again.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I'm still learning all this stuff now, but also I'd never really even in terms of actually running an organization.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: My, my thought on on running cash flow was just how much bank money do we have in the bank and how much can we have?
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: How long can we go without making any money?
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: That's as simple as my experience was of running a cash flow and running a pnl.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: I I didn't even have a pnl, so to speak.
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: It was just how much cash do we have, how much is it, how much is my opex and my cap, and how long can I go without earning any any money?
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: That's as sophisticated as my pnl was it's a good way to start.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I have to admit it is for those listening.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: It's like well, it's a good.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: It's a good place to start.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Don't spend what you don't have.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: So it's a good place exactly that and I was only looking at I didn't have a pnl, I was just looking at the balance sheet.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: That's all I was doing, in effect.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: And you know, these new guys came in and really helped sophisticate my learning and and how to to grow a company.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: So we again, we went on a really over the last.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I've been working with them for what?
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Four years now, just over just over three years, so three and a half four years, coming up to four years, and in that time I would say we grew the company from eight to there's now 55 of us across two offices, hoping to grow it to don't know what yet, but in my head I'm thinking two to three hundred people.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: That's my, my personal target.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: I don't know if they'll agree with me, but and yeah, I've learned so much over these last three years that these guys are coming in to teach me, so it's been fantastic you know, malvin, it's interesting listening to you there because it is an incredible story that you know.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: That kind of gets us to the room now.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: That gets us to where we are today and I hear that and it takes me back to you talking about when you were getting that interest from people as a footballer and other clubs were coming in for you.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: And here what you've built, you've built a structure around, you've got that support network that you know it was family.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Here you've got that same support network that can help build you to that next level, that can help you change gear, shift gear to that next level of business ownership and really business.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to say understanding, right, business acumen is perhaps the right phrase to use.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and you've got that support and now you can go to that next level For you.
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: How does that sound?
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: Does that feel about right?
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: I now have kind of, because there's so much I don't know.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: So I'm having monthly lessons still with my CFO on a balance sheet, on EBIT calculations.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: I'm learning all of this stuff.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: I'm still not an expert on it.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: When we do budget reviews and go through the P&L, I'm still asking what does that mean?
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I'm still asking those kinds of questions, but I have now resourced that Again.
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: I have one-to-ones with the CFO now every month and I can ask as many stupid questions as I need to ask well, what does that mean?
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: What does that mean, what does this mean?
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: And but I'm still starting to get that understanding.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: And and even when it comes to, you know, the financing of an organization and the, the cash that you can leverage from a debt perspective and that using that to run an organization, so having your net assets, all these kind of stuff, I'm now learning that you scale your organization way quicker based off your net assets and positions and all this kind of good stuff, which is not something that I would have never known when I was by myself and now I'm armed with, if I were to know, to go on another exercise after this, which I hopefully I you know I will do.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: I think I've got more in the tank to do something else.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be going at it, and coming at it from a position of way more competency in terms of how to build an organization, how to partner with banks, invoice, discounting facilities, all this kind of good stuff which I never knew before and you know you use the word confidence.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: You spoke earlier about lacking confidence as you were coming out of the game and here building again that confidence.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: And this journey now gets you to a point where you've got the confidence to really look and say, well, what do I want to achieve and how do you want to get there?
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: And recognizing there are different ways of doing that.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: I think that was really powerful, really interesting story definitely, and I think you know the lesson that I've learned.
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: And I think I'm at a junction now a game where, almost where I was when I played football, but being able to recognize that where gone through the slog, so to speak, of scaling and we're in a pivotal moment where the company's making, in the grand scheme of things, you know, a lot of money.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: So I could quite easily, you know, sit back and say, okay, I've done it, we're here, we've made it.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: But I've learned from that mistake in the past, right when I, when I played football, and thinking we've made it and I won't make that same mistake again.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: You know, we're in a position where, again, I've not realized my goals yet.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: I want to take it to the point of a sale, and this time I'm going to do that and I equate the sale of the business to me hitting the premier league right when I was playing football.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: And until I'm at that point, I can't take my foot off the pedal.
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: In fact, I've now got to shift up a gear because, you know there are a number of people, especially the economy at the moment.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: You know there are a number of companies that have gone bust this year.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: There's uncertainty in the market.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: The political landscape has been shifting both in the UK and the US, which has caused uncertainty in banks, uncertainty in most industries certainly in banks and certainly in most industries.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: People have struggled this year cost of living and all that kind of good stuff and the resilience now that not only I have but also my board have is that we're going to not only ride this kind of period of uncertainty but once, hopefully, the market opens up again and things are growing again, the economies are growing that we're going to be in a much stronger position to go boom and again, having learned what I learned when I played football and when I came out of football, the mistake I made was that complacency of thinking I've made it and I won't allow company to get to that same place that I was in when I played football.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: We've made it.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: We don't need to try.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: We need to be as an organisation striving getting better, bringing better consultants in to improve what we currently have and looking at that continuous improvement on a monthly basis till we get to the point I want to be one of the best agents, niche agencies out there and until that is validated by someone coming in to say we want to acquire you.
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: Only at that point will I allow myself to take my foot off the pedal.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Luckily I can say I can go on holiday now and actually not have to work, because in the early years I was having to do that, I was having to work, but luckily I have a team around me now that I don't have to work when I'm on holiday.
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: Still, the dedication is is there and we have a goal yeah, well, I know I've taken so much of your time listening to this story.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Just a couple more questions, really.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: And so, as you look back at your experience and you think about those listening, what would you advise them they ought to do in order to help set themselves up for well, I guess, that second wind in life once they finish their elite sport?
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: biggest thing to do, I would say, is talk, and the platform you're providing is one that is is so if I had had a you there.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: But when I came out to speak to and be like, right, help guide me.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: What do I do?
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Because I remember when, when I came out, I speak to and be like, right, help guide me.
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: What do I do?
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: Because I remember when, when I came out, I went to the job center.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: I had no money I needed, and they were.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I was like help me find a job.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: And their response was are you on the door?
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: I was like no.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: They were like well, we can't help you.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Go use a computer.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: I was like I don't even have a c.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Well, what do I do?
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm lost.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: I'm lost.
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: There was, I have, there was no support network whatsoever.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: I remember, you know, my bank account was frozen.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: I had minus £2,000 in my bank and I was still getting letters from the FAA selling me Rolex, watches and in-house cinemas and I'm like I don't need this, I need someone to help me.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Like, what am I doing here?
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: And I didn't have the infrastructure or the support network at all.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: It might have existed, but certainly the path to find.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: It wasn't there.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: I didn't know who to contact, like who can help me.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know real life, so to speak, and I've always been in football since I left school so that I would say, people coming out of that, you know, and I think as footballers we're fairly egotistical in the sense that or we can do it, but I would say to people not just footballers but yeah, yeah, coming Coming out of the sport, or it's just drop the thought process that you have to do it yourself and just reach out to people, speak to people you know, show your vulnerability, let people help guide you in terms of what you can do and the avenues, and be open to having those really honest conversations that you are struggling, you don't know what to do, you're a bit lost, because I think a lot of us in particular, we know when we're looking at that second wind is the first thing, before you can even start to take in that second breath is is understanding where you currently are and navigating your, your current as is and where you are at that particular moment in time and the.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: The way that you get out of that way quicker is by communicating, speaking on openly and honestly with friends, with, with family and people that can help guide you who've been there before.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: That's the biggest advice I can give to anyone coming out of sport right now.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Malvin.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: That's excellent.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: That's really sound advice.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: Thanks for well, I guess, being vulnerable yourself by sharing your story today.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: Super, really insightful, really open.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: Look, there are going to be people listening who are going to want to follow your journey, perhaps even get in touch and, you know, who resonate with your experience.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: What's the best place to find you or to reach out?
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: yeah, I say linkedin really I'm on, I'm active on linkedin.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: It's my job daily, so I'm on the platform every day.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: So everyone who, anyone who listens, who wants to talk, I'm happy to definitely again be that support network for someone who is going through that journey.
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: So definitely, you know, connect with me on linkedin melvin kamara valum, associate it's pretty easy to find on there and drop me a message and 100.
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: You know, I'll try and find that I will make the time to speak to anyone, particularly who's going through that journey.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, happy and people can follow us on there.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: Everything's shared on there in terms of what we're doing, updates.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, definitely connect with me on linkedin brilliant malvin.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Thanks very much for sharing your story with us today pleasure.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me right thank you for listening to the second win podcast.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwinio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.