Latest / Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast / Ken Shelton | Let's Talk About Why Educators Feel Threatened by AI

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Ken Shelton | Let's Talk About Why Educators Feel Threatened by AI · Integrate This! Ed Tech Podcast

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Welcome to Integrate This, your go -to edtech
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podcast where curiosity meets classroom innovation.
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Join your hosts, David Berner and Jeremy Mikla,
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as we explore the rapidly evolving world of educational
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technology. From game -changing tools to insightful
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conversations with today's top edtech voices,
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we're here to help educators stay informed, inspired,
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and ready to innovate. So tune in, level up,
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and let's integrate this. Hey, welcome to the
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integrate this ed tech podcast I'm David burner
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joined by a co -host Jeremy Micla and we have
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a special guest with us today Ken Shelton who
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I had the opportunity to attend a few sessions
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with Ken that he was putting on at FETC and got
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a chance to meet with him briefly as well and
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We thought that it would be great to have you
1:01
on the podcast So welcome to the integrate this
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ed tech podcast and why don't you tell us a little
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bit about yourself? Ken and how you got to where
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you got to today. I'll do that. And thank you
1:13
for having me here. By the way, kudos to both
1:16
of you in your intro video. You both are playing
1:19
this Pac Man. Yeah, that actually at ISTE in
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Denver, right? One of the vendors put on a little
1:28
after hours thing at an arcade place. So yeah,
1:31
was that the arcade place? Yeah, yeah. I've attended
1:33
ISTE enough times in Denver where there's different
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vendors, they will do that. And isn't it amazing
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how, at least I can speak for me, how much fun
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the arcade games that I grew up playing still
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remain today, you know, even with technology
1:49
and, you know, you can immerse yourself in the
1:52
game, you know, whether it be an RPG or a first
1:54
person shooter or something like that. I still
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love it. You have to just make it, make it stated
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clearly here, right? David, who set the high
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score on the game? Yeah, we were we when we were
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there Jeremy actually set the high score for
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that machine, which is pretty cool Oh, very cool.
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Very cool. I think they just unplug it and plug
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it back in right before I played it but Still
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I got my name on there Yeah, no, so I have to
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answer your question because we can talk video
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games all day, too. Yeah, so I'm Ken Sheldon
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I'm based in Los Angeles been in education for
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For quite a while more than two decades and my
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uh, work, uh, you know, is, is started off in
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the classroom was in the classroom for a long
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time. Most of my classroom experience was at
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the middle school level. And I taught in several
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different subject areas, primarily social studies.
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And then, uh, I also have a career in technical
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education certification. So I also taught in
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a technology lab, which was the most fun cause
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that was where I could pretty much do whatever
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I want. And so for me, my theme. was always how
3:00
do we make sure that we do as much play and have
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as much fun as possible. And the learning will
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naturally come along with that. So I get everything
3:09
from block coding to graphic design. Although
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I would say my favorite things to do were visual
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storytelling. So photography, film and video
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production. Yeah, that's what I did. The kids
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loved it too. In fact, I'll say my favorite project.
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that I started doing, I did it every year for
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probably my last five to six years in the classroom
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was teaching the students about the six different
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types of documentary style storytelling. And
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so they would produce documentaries where the
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theme of their documentaries was stories from
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the community. And then they had to determine
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which documentary style they wanted to produce.
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And the documentaries generally, there was one
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where I challenged them where it was 60 second
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documentaries, but usually They had a timeline
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cap of no more than five to ten minutes. So had
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to be no less than five, but no more than ten
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as well. That was that was that was fun. That
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was fun. Oh, man, that was fun. What is it that
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you think as you've kind of gone through your
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years and the different things that you've done,
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what do you feel like has shaped you the most
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in terms of your views on? Well, technology in
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the classroom, because you mentioned you had
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quite a bit of experience there, but just like
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thinking about technology, learning. how the
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cultures of school works. What do you, what experience
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do you think has helped shape you the most on
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where you're at today? To be honest with you,
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I think it's a combination of my experiences
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in school, uh, as a student. And then also obviously
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as a teacher, my, in one of my keynotes, I asked
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the audience and unfortunately I anticipate the
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answer, uh, as far as what percentage of the
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audience and I, my anticipation is usually 99
4:54
% or higher, is I asked the question, if you
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were to reflect on your experiences in school
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as a student, would it be described as thriving
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or surviving? And unfortunately, it's more the
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latter than the former. So that was part of what
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I carried with me as a classroom educator, was
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I didn't want students to have to survive schooling.
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I wanted them to thrive, which was part of the
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reason why I would do many of the projects that
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we would do. Everything was definitely more project
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oriented. There were certainly learning objectives,
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but my emphasis was on play and exploration.
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And by way of that, you will of course learn
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some things, but I also was realistic, especially
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in middle school that if I've had student, if
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I have students in the seventh and eighth grade,
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they're not going to necessarily remember everything
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I quote unquote taught them. But what they will
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remember are the things that we did and ways
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to amplify. You know their own voice assert their
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agency and app self -advocacy where necessary.
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But then also identify, you know, essentially
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things that that were strengths of theirs that,
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you know, at that age, it's like, you're still.
6:00
You're starting to get to high school and then,
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you know, should you choose a career path or
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a college path and you're going to start to refine
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what you think about yourself and what dreams
6:11
or goals you have for the future. And so for
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me, it was. How do I propagate that mindset in
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the context of all of the things we're doing?
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That's why I share. We did a whole lot of different
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things and that was the beauty of me teaching
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a subject matter that was not tested. And the
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standards, there really weren't any standards
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at that time. So for me, it was how do I support
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the other core content areas, but by way of things
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like that. So again, if you're doing a documentary,
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You know story from the community we're gonna
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pick different topics it could be everything
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from. I have several schools that i work out
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that they were in at the time i was a food desert
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so it was on you know healthy food accessibility
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or you know other ones were you know small businesses
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you know how many small businesses are in the
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area how long have they been here. You know what's
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the story that the owners of those small business
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have how did they come to this area what was
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there. catalyst for the idea of the small business.
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So that kind of indirectly connects to things
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like entrepreneurial shit. So yeah, it was just,
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it was all of that. So a lot of, again, a lot
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of what I experienced myself in school, and it
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wasn't limited to K -12, it was definitely K
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-12 and probably not undergrad, but definitely
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K -12 and grad school was definitely survival.
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And so that's kind of what I carry with me even
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now to this day, as far as my talks and... the
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goal that I have around empowering educators
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to really, really start to see the way and develop
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a higher degree of self -awareness of the things
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that you do and the experiential impact it has
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on yourself and on the learners that you support.
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So when I hear you talk about that, my brain
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just automatically just goes to in using your
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example of the students working on the food desert
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project, like you know, what role could AI play
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as a teammate in helping, like, if you were to
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go back in the classroom and work on that assignment
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again, I don't know how you could do it and not
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involve AI as a thought partner in there, but
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just to kind of take a little step back from
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that. this morning I was presenting two sessions
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at a school one of our districts that we work
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with and a mixed room of educators there were
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elementary middle high school level educators
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there was also a mix of paraprofessionals and
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teachers in one room and I could tell as soon
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and some of them self -selected the sessions
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and some of them were put into it by admin and
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I could tell just by the faces in the room that
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there's a strong emotional response that people
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have when you bring up the topic of AI, either
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they're they're all in or they're, you know.
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Yeah, like why do you think? Why do you think
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AI brings up strong feelings one way or the other
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in the educational space? Yeah, you know, I think
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there is a couple of things with that, so. The
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whole idea around that kind of connects to the
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following. So if you're familiar with it, it's.
9:08
The rogers diffusion of innovations for a future
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familiar with that but it's this curve and of
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course what do you have you have the two lower
9:18
ends and then the hill right at the middle and
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so on when you have your innovators your evangelizers
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your i'm diving right and i'm all in one hundred
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percent and that's usually. I usually cost is
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no more than about ten percent and then on the
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other extreme. you have your laggards and your
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resistors no matter what you tell me i'm against
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it i'm opposed to it so on and so forth so that
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whole binary tends to be the lowest percentage
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versus what's in the middle which is the folks
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that will they'll kind of go whatever direction
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the wind blows but i do think and and the reason
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why i mentioned that is because what we're seeing
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with artificial intelligence is not it's not
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a new dynamic it i can go all the way back to
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even something as simple as Google with you had
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folks that were all in like all right Google
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we need to teach the kids information literacy
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then you understand how to how to do a search
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and then you had those like you know I don't
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want the kids using Google because all they're
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gonna do is Google the answers and of course
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for me whenever I heard that I was like well
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maybe you should be asking different questions
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so it's nothing new with AI I think the the main
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thing for me around that is to really start to
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recognize that None of this anytime there's an
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emerging technology whether you want to call
10:32
it disruptive or not, you know the thoughtful
10:35
sustainable and strategic strategic approach
10:38
is not to look at as a binary it's to be what
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I love to describe as a you know a Joyful ideator
10:47
or a critical interrogator and a thoughtful skeptic
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all at once Yeah, and do you think though that
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there's also a thing where some people they hear
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stories about how kids are just using it to cheat
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and that's kind of they've made up their mind
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before they walk into the room because they have
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their own view of what academic integrity is
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and it means you know you can't plagiarize and
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therefore if you could potentially you're not
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going to use it at all right and so is there
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maybe a healthier way to get them to shift that
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approach to maybe view academic integrity in
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not just those gotcha type moments but ways to
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be more transparent or maybe ways to be creating
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a learning experience around it. I do. I think,
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I think a couple of things with that. So number
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one, and this happened recently with a couple
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of school districts I worked with is they were
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talking about academic integrity and they wanted
11:44
to have a, at least a brief discussion. And so
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for me, I'm like, well, before we have a brief
11:48
discussion, I need to understand how do you in
11:51
fact define academic integrity? And they didn't
11:54
have a definition. They were like, well, it's
11:56
kinda, kinda, no, no, no. Definitions are not
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kinda. They're not insinuations. They're not
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suggestions. It's a definition. And in the case
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with one school district, they had, they talked
12:08
about the school district's academic integrity
12:11
policy as adopted by the board. And I said, okay,
12:14
so before we do that, let me go. And I went onto
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this website and went to the board minutes and
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I did a search and there were. Mentions of academic
12:21
integrity, but no definitions of it. So, uh,
12:24
you know, I think, I think part of it is we have
12:27
to have a realistic definition of what academic
12:30
integrity actually is. Uh, and then, you know,
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I have, I have been in situations where I've
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heard the stories and. And all I ask is, and
12:40
what, who told you that story and what did you
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do to independently confirm its validity? Uh,
12:45
because there's a whole lot of stories out there
12:47
about all sorts of things and. You know, my whole
12:50
thing is now it's time for your information and
12:52
media literacy lens. What, you know, who's telling
12:55
that story and from what perspective and what
12:57
experience, or is it a story they're telling
13:00
because they're trying to propagate or talking
13:02
point that's in alignment with what they already
13:03
believe in, what they already think. Well, that
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seems like that's happening in so many different
13:10
parts of our world, even outside. AI technology
13:14
that that's boy that you could hammer that home
13:17
enough. It's information and media literacy too.
13:19
Yes. Yes. Yes. And Ken, can you talk a little
13:23
bit too, just about like when, so we have schools
13:26
and folks in those schools that when they see
13:29
AI, they feel threatened by this. And this is
13:32
one thing when I was, uh, I was actually attending
13:35
a session with you, uh, and you were just an
13:38
audience at this, but this was with Alana and
13:40
we had, you brought up the scarf model. You talked
13:43
a bit about how there are, you know, this feeling
13:47
of threat that's coming from the the lack of
13:53
adoption is really about this threat that people
13:56
feel looming. And it's not really taking on kind
14:01
of a I should learn about this. It's more I should
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stay away from this or do everything to resist
14:06
it. Can you talk a little bit about that or maybe
14:08
dive deeper into that? Why that threat comes
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about? Yeah, so the scarf model is it's a it's
14:15
a model around Basically, it's it's individual
14:19
and organizational change. It was developed by
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dr. David rock psychologists and scarf is an
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acronym for status certainty autonomy relatedness
14:28
and fairness and so anytime any sort of change
14:31
whether it be artificial intelligence or a grading
14:34
policy or anything There's always going to be
14:39
three areas. There's the Sociological impact
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the individual impact and then the psychological
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impact. So the sociological, you know, I look
14:48
at as a culture So what culture ship are you
14:49
trying to make? Then the individual impact is
14:53
how does that how does that? change impact me
14:56
on an individual level? And then the psychological
14:59
impact is how do I feel about that change? And
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so that's where scarf comes in, because ultimately,
15:04
in those five areas, any sort of change is, you
15:08
know, it's seen as either and it's a it's a it's
15:11
a Likert scale. So it's the two extremes are
15:14
threat or reward. And then of course, you've
15:15
got varying points in between. And so in the
15:18
context of like artificial intelligence, it's,
15:21
you know, how does that affect my status, you
15:24
know, my perceived status of myself. I, in the
15:27
context of the culture of a classroom, a school
15:30
and a district. And so does AI pose a threat
15:34
or a reward to my status, which is one area.
15:37
The other area is obviously certainty. You know,
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I buy the whole idea. What I try to explain to
15:43
folks is that our brains are psychologically
15:44
are wired to prioritize our, our psychological
15:48
safety and comfort over our growth. period and
15:52
that's part of the reason why you see the reaction
15:56
you do all the talking points around academic
15:59
integrity or cheating or all those sorts of things
16:02
most of those are There may be there is actually
16:06
so there is some validity to those but those
16:08
are a ruse for what's really going on which is
16:11
That any one of those five things I see as a
16:14
threat to my status. I see as a threat to my
16:16
certainty I see as a threat to my autonomy I
16:20
see it as a threat to my relatedness, and I also
16:23
see it as a threat to fairness. And so that's
16:26
why with leaders, I always say we need to craft
16:29
a comprehensive and repetitive messaging mechanism
16:34
to directly address that part, because that's
16:37
how you provide. Guidance for those that are
16:44
at one end of that Roger scale of I'm all in
16:46
I'm all in I'm all in all in is fine and dandy
16:49
But if you go to all in then you can create blinders
16:52
to the things that you should be aware of Then
16:54
that's also how you address the laggards which
16:57
is you know, what's really going on. So if you,
17:01
you know, for example, I would say status, certainty
17:04
and relatedness. So how do we directly address
17:07
those? Well, if you've got a comprehensive professional
17:09
development plan in place that can directly address
17:12
those. And especially if it is responsive to
17:15
the needs of the educators, it's appropriately
17:17
differentiated. Like I know I'm throwing out
17:19
jargon, but the whole idea is it's not a one
17:21
size fits all one and done PD. It is thoughtfully
17:24
and practically implemented in ways that support
17:27
educators on an individualized and by default
17:31
a collective basis. But then also it's addressing
17:35
all the other things. It's recognizing that emerging
17:39
technologies are going to continue to change
17:41
and they will change some of the things that
17:43
we do. And we need to identify what are the things
17:45
that are most urgent that we need to know now
17:48
and what are the things that we want to be able
17:50
to take our time and be able to develop going
17:52
forward. So that addresses, again, all five of
17:56
those things. Is that something too, where you
17:59
feel like that's the main place a leader should
18:04
start? So someone that's at a district and they're
18:07
an administrator, is that where they should start
18:09
is developing that learning process through professional
18:14
development? Or is there other things too that
18:16
you think that they can do that helps? Lower
18:19
the threat that people feel but keeps expectations
18:22
high for them. I Mean, I think it's it's you
18:27
know, it's not a one -size -fits -all and there's
18:29
more than one approach So I think professional
18:31
development is obviously one but but again as
18:34
I share is not just so we're gonna do PD or you're
18:36
gonna get the workshop It's how do you design
18:38
the workshop to account for all of those things?
18:41
You know what data, you know, you hear a lot
18:44
about data driven decision -making and what I
18:46
always say is Bad data can lead to bad decisions.
18:50
So we need to be mindful of what kind of data
18:52
are we acquiring? What's qualitative? What's
18:54
quantitative? Has it been replicated? Has it
18:56
been authenticated? What are your instruments
18:59
of measurement that can lead you to making a
19:02
more informed decision? But then also, what are
19:05
the stories behind the data? So if you've got
19:08
teachers, for example, that are ardently resistant
19:10
to AI, and the data point is we have X percentage
19:14
that are resistant to it. Well, now it's time
19:16
to find out what exactly is it that they're resistant
19:18
to? What concerns do they have? How many are
19:21
the results of misinformation and how many are
19:25
legitimate? Like they're not all, there are legitimate
19:28
concerns as there should be. Remember that's
19:30
what I said, joyful ideator, critical interrogator,
19:32
and thoughtful skeptic. But there's that, but
19:36
then there's also the messaging. Like even one
19:38
district that I work with now, we've taken the
19:42
time to really craft thoughtful messaging to
19:45
the educator workforce, the school district community,
19:50
and all the leaders within the district. So your
19:53
site administrators, they call it their ILTs,
19:56
so their instructional leadership team. So those
19:58
constitute like your principals, your coaches,
20:03
things of that nature, your assistant principals.
20:05
All of that messaging has been specifically crafted
20:10
for that specific audience, but there are some
20:13
consistent through lines around. Here's what
20:15
we're doing about artificial intelligence. Here's
20:17
how it fits into the district's mission, vision
20:21
and strategic plan. Here's how we're going to
20:23
support all of the individual school sites. Here's
20:27
how we're going to support the teachers and integration
20:31
of it. Here's how we're going to support the
20:32
students in doing this. Here's how you can support
20:35
the child that you care for in the home. You
20:36
see, it's all of that. And then lastly, what
20:40
we've done is we have a draft board resolution
20:44
in place that with cabinet, my goal with them
20:48
was to do two things. One, do a board study so
20:52
that all the board members are up to speed on
20:54
what's actually going on. They don't need to
20:57
know necessarily what's going to happen in the
20:58
second grade classroom, but what they do need
21:00
to know is what is the overarching approach that
21:02
the district is going to take or they would like
21:04
to take. Uh, and so then we have a drafted policy
21:07
that does things like identify and define academic
21:11
integrity. It provides, uh, board board directed
21:15
guidance on what will happen with respect to
21:19
digital technologies and specifically artificial
21:22
intelligence. So you see it's all of the above.
21:24
It's not one. And then the next, it's what I
21:27
always say is you want to be able to do all of
21:29
those things concurrently. And it's kind of like.
21:32
It's kind of like where you have all these glasses
21:34
and you have a pitcher and some days You're gonna
21:36
pour more into one glass than the other but it
21:38
doesn't mean that you leave the others empty
21:40
One of the things that I'm hearing you you say
21:44
when describing that situation and it's connecting
21:47
back to an earlier thing you talked about of
21:49
empowering people You know in it then it sounds
21:53
like you're empowering your your district leaders,
21:56
your admins, your instructional leaders, the
21:58
teachers in the classroom and, and to a point,
22:01
you know, even to the students, you know, like,
22:03
but do you find that there are points that are
22:08
roadblocks or that there's a gatekeeper in place
22:11
that's, that's kind of like getting in the way
22:13
of some of that empowerment, like they're, they're
22:16
preventing access to tools or they are the the
22:20
purveyors and the owners of all knowledge and
22:23
that the only way you can access it is through
22:25
them. Yes. So that happens all the time. I mean,
22:29
that happens again, that you go back to my reference
22:32
to even Google search. We don't want kids using
22:35
Google. I'm old enough to remember when teachers
22:38
didn't want us using computers because they felt
22:41
that computers are, you know, they're disruptive
22:45
and they can be an inhibitor to learning, which
22:48
is why you need a textbook pencil and paper.
22:51
So there's always going to be that, you know,
22:54
that kind of connects to the whole scarf thing.
22:56
And my thing with that is that the most effective
23:00
way to address that is a psychological disposition,
23:03
not to get bogged down in the particulars of,
23:06
well, I don't want the kids using AI for what
23:07
blank reason. It's like, well, tell me more,
23:10
like what information, what data gathering and
23:13
what, uh, what experiential, uh, components or
23:17
assessments do you have that lead you to No,
23:19
you can't do it because of blank. And again,
23:22
that's when you get into the particulars. And,
23:24
you know, the other thing is that oftentimes
23:26
folks will make a choice and then they'll engage
23:29
in what's called choice -supported bias, which
23:31
means that I've made a choice and now I'm going
23:33
to have all the talking points and find all the
23:35
information that affirms the choice that I made,
23:37
even when there's objective facts to the contrary.
23:42
One of the things that I'm noticing with one
23:43
of the schools that I've been working with here
23:45
a little bit, too, is that they did at the beginning,
23:47
Well, even this last summer, they had kind of
23:50
decided, Hey, we want to go all in on this particular
23:54
AI platform, this tool. And, you know, and to
23:58
the credit of, of, of some of the leaders in
24:01
that building after the last couple of months
24:04
where they've been working to try to get that
24:06
tool to work the way that they wanted it to for
24:09
the purposes and objectives they thought it was
24:11
going to do. And I met with them last week and
24:15
they were like, Jeremy, you got it. Can you help
24:17
us with something else? Because this, this direction
24:20
that we were going is, is not the right path.
24:24
And, you know, to their credit, I think that
24:25
they realized that they need to be more flexible
24:28
in their approach and not just so I can only
24:32
go down this one lane because that's what we
24:34
decided to do, you know, five months ago. Right.
24:37
And so is that part of it? It's not a one size
24:39
fits all and you just need that flexibility and
24:41
you need to bring the right partners to the table.
24:44
Right. Yeah, you do. And. Despite, I mean, my
24:48
whole thing with school districts in general
24:50
is try to, uh, sift and filter through the sales
24:56
and marketing talking points. And I dress, you
24:59
know, if you're looking at acquiring, for example,
25:02
X AI platform, what does it do that you currently
25:07
can't do and, or how does it accelerate and amplify
25:12
what you are currently doing? And what you will
25:16
find is that rarely is there a one, one stop
25:21
solution. It's usually has to be layered. And
25:24
so, uh, you know, I guess the best way I can
25:28
say it is the, some of the marketing talking
25:30
points are, you know, where your, your, your,
25:32
where your one size fits all solution. And that's,
25:35
that's unrealistic. Uh, but to the credit of
25:38
that district, they, they clearly had some sort
25:40
of additional assessment process to determine.
25:43
that it wasn't necessarily fitting. I know that
25:47
it does get me in trouble sometimes when I bring
25:51
it up to different school systems and especially
25:54
leaders in a conversation when I asked them,
25:57
you know, what platforms are you currently using
25:59
or that you're contracted with? And then further
26:01
to that point, what was the vetting process to
26:04
select that platform? What problem did they say
26:06
you had that either platform will solve? I don't
26:10
really get that answer. I get it sometimes, but,
26:13
but not, not as frequently as, as I think I would
26:16
like for it to be. But by the same token, I understand
26:20
from a district leadership standpoint is if,
26:24
if it's something that can help the teachers,
26:26
then I want to be able to put it in the hands
26:27
of the teachers to do it. But this goes back
26:29
to what I shared, right. Do you want to go an
26:34
inch deep and a mile wide or an inch wide and
26:38
a mile deep? I'll share it this way. I basically
26:44
challenge, especially when it comes to chief
26:46
technology officers, I basically said, you should
26:48
be able to accomplish over 90 % of the impact
26:52
you want technology to have with no more than
26:54
about six platforms. You have your foundational
26:58
platform. So that's things like your Google Workspace
27:00
for Education, your Microsoft Office 365. Those
27:03
are the things that cover your email, your workflow
27:07
and productivity things, whether it be Docs,
27:10
Sheets, anything along those lines. Then you're
27:13
going to have your LMS, which is essentially
27:16
is how you house and manage everything from your
27:20
courses to, you know, grading to all those sorts
27:24
of things. So that's two. OK. Then you have your
27:28
your specialized platforms that allow for meaningful
27:32
teaching and learning to occur so those are gonna
27:34
be the things where it's not specific to or it's
27:38
not indicative of anyone specific content area
27:41
it's like i'm trying to think of one now but
27:43
it would be like a platform where the teachers
27:46
can. you know, provide students with different
27:49
types of assessments or things like that, even
27:52
though technically you can do that within, uh,
27:55
you know, Microsoft or Google where AI can fit
27:58
into that is how does it augment those things?
28:01
But then you're going to have your little carve
28:02
outs where I've seen, for example, there's some
28:05
specialized platforms for like math or science
28:08
or things like that. But you see, you shouldn't
28:11
have to go more than about. I and I don't have
28:14
any research to back it, but I usually say usually
28:16
about six because once you start going beyond
28:19
that, the thing that happens is all the following.
28:21
So number one is it can put a strain on the IT
28:24
department, assuming your district has one. And
28:27
if it doesn't, it puts a further strain on whomever
28:30
oversees technology. you run the risk of compromising
28:34
the integrity of your, what I would say is your
28:36
cybersecurity infrastructure, because now you're
28:38
starting to have all these different platforms
28:40
that might require, I mean, what's required to
28:43
use a platform? Does it fit within a single sign
28:45
-on? Which one do you use? Do students have to
28:48
have accounts? Does it require their email address
28:50
for those accounts? All of those things. And
28:53
then lastly, what I caution against is, the digital
28:57
divide. And so I'll give you an example of how
28:59
the digital divide can occur in the same district,
29:02
in the same school, literally one classroom right
29:05
next to the other. I could be in a classroom
29:07
where the teacher is using a few platforms with
29:10
a high degree of fidelity and impact. They are
29:12
thoughtful about what we're doing with those.
29:14
They integrate well into the instructional program.
29:18
I'm learning how to use both the surface level
29:20
and the more advanced features of those platforms
29:22
by way of my learning experience to augment what
29:26
I'm doing. Then I go into the next classroom
29:29
where the teacher has gone to a conference and
29:32
have attended 60 apps in 60 minutes. And we're
29:35
doing kind of like an ad hoc like, well, we're
29:39
going to try this today. And then we're going
29:40
to try this one today. And we're going to try
29:42
this one today. And so I never really get a full
29:45
understanding of how that technology can work
29:48
for me. And because it's so many apps and platforms,
29:52
I'm constantly changing what I'm doing. I might
29:55
still be using those workload productivity ones,
29:57
but I'm not using anything with any degree of
30:00
thoughtful impact or fidelity. And so that's
30:03
why I always say, whatever AI platforms you want
30:07
to use, That's fine, but let's go through the
30:10
process of which one works best based on where
30:13
you currently are, where you want to be, how
30:15
does it fit within your existing IT infrastructure,
30:18
what's the PD plan for using it, what are the
30:20
expectations on the impact that it will have,
30:23
and then what promises is that platform making
30:25
that you can hold them accountable for when it
30:28
comes time for potential renewal or cancellation
30:31
of the contract. And that's a really good point
30:34
too, because when we see as schools are adopting
30:37
the AI, we obviously have, and this is true of
30:40
EdTech tools too, where there's a race to have
30:43
certain features added. And so then you end up
30:46
doubling up on features that you can already
30:49
get from a tool you already have in -house, that
30:52
you're now trying to grab another one and not
30:56
realizing that you can. do that with the tool
30:58
you already have. Can you dig a little bit further
31:00
into when it comes to AI as well, we looking
31:04
at how it's used in terms of like, well, for
31:08
one, one of the big things with it is there are
31:14
certain things that teachers should learn before
31:16
even going out to individual tools like say effective
31:20
prompting and how you go about that process.
31:24
And one of the things that we run into or see
31:26
is that AI produces really what seems to be good
31:30
material, but it might flawed, right? And so,
31:35
and you covered a bit of this in the session
31:38
that I attended, but why is it that people trust
31:41
that confidence and what seems to be a fluent
31:45
output by AI over, why do they trust that so
31:49
much? I think is the first question. Well, it's
31:51
very convincing, isn't it? Yes. Hey, you asked
31:55
me a question. I'm going to what my dear friend
31:59
Matt Miller always says is that it is a confident
32:02
guesser. So I think a couple of things with that,
32:07
and I brought this up in a recent workshop, as
32:09
I've said. As much as we hear in education about
32:13
the importance of student agency. You're not
32:18
really about student agency. I go, and I know
32:20
some people are, but I go hear me out on this
32:24
so. How often were you encouraged to question
32:28
things when you were in school? So for example,
32:31
the textbook, and I have a lot of stories about
32:34
this. The textbook says X. And I knew when I
32:39
was in high school, it was in my, there were
32:42
a bunch of things, but one in particular was
32:44
in my AP US history class. So the teacher said
32:47
a few things and then their textbook had something.
32:50
And because of my family history, I knew that
32:52
wasn't true. It actually, it didn't tell the
32:58
whole story. That's the best way I can put it.
33:00
And so I mean, I'll be transparent with this
33:03
is that it was a section of, and I'm actually
33:06
considering including this in one of the books
33:08
that I'm working on now. So it was a section
33:11
on the GI Bill distribution to World War II veterans.
33:16
And the professor, excuse me, the teacher was
33:19
saying, you know, when they, when everyone came
33:20
back, they got their GI bill of benefits and
33:23
it allowed them to buy homes and go to college
33:25
and yada, yada, yada and all those sorts of things.
33:27
And again, I'm speaking from family history perspective.
33:31
And so he said it and there were references to
33:35
that in the textbook. And so I responded and
33:38
I just said, yeah, that's not the whole story.
33:41
And I got into basically an argument with the
33:43
teacher. And he was like, well, I'm the teacher
33:46
and you don't know what you're talking about.
33:47
Plus it's in the textbook. And of course, for
33:49
me, I was like, yeah. And I also have two of
33:53
my family members on my dad's side that are veterans.
33:56
Uh, uh, one of which was a Tuskegee Airman. So
33:59
I know exactly what happened because that's my
34:02
family history. And so, of course, the reason
34:05
why I say that, and I'm going to connect that
34:07
to the whole AI thing is that that was not received
34:12
with. Oh, tell us more. It was, you need to keep
34:17
your mouth shut. You don't know what you're talking
34:18
about. And so the reason why I say that is because
34:22
ours, most of us, our learning experiences were
34:27
some realm similar to that. And so now as adults
34:30
and consumers of artificial intelligence systems,
34:34
we carry a don't question authority, don't question
34:37
the systems mindset. I'm disposition where my
34:42
whole thing is you should always question it.
34:44
And if you really want to understand AI literacy
34:47
as the way I always share in my workshops, how
34:50
I define it, you should be questioning the response.
34:54
You should be telling it. Where is this information
34:57
coming from? Because the way these are designed,
35:00
they are not neutral assistance. They prioritize
35:03
engagement over accuracy. And as Matt shares,
35:06
they're confident guessers. And so it may look
35:08
like it's given you. the right answer, but it's
35:11
also likely giving you the answer that either
35:14
is based on biased algorithms or biased data
35:20
sets, in addition to telling you what it assumes
35:24
and thinks you want to hear, not necessarily
35:26
the answer of the response that you're looking
35:29
for, unless you specifically tell it to do that.
35:33
And so you view that as a continuation of because
35:37
we've been in that process of uh, just accepting
35:40
like the, so if it's coming from authority, we,
35:44
we accept that. And then we just kind of, uh,
35:47
transpose that onto this new facing and do you
35:53
think, uh, what, so what would be some ways that
35:56
because we're already in that and, uh, people
35:59
are already engaging with AI. What, what to you
36:01
is the most important things that schools can
36:03
be doing, uh, or putting in place to combat some
36:07
of that. I mean, for sure, building capacity
36:13
around AI literacy and AI fluency. You know,
36:16
you had mentioned earlier, you know, the whole
36:17
idea around even prompting like given notice
36:21
that anytime you use any one of the popular large
36:24
language models, uh, when they give you a response,
36:26
they also include like, I can do this for you.
36:29
I can do this for you. I can do this for you.
36:31
Like that's an example of where, where it's going
36:34
to do that by default. So you have to tell it,
36:37
don't make any suggestions until I ask you for
36:39
that. Like we have to really think in terms of,
36:43
and this is where I go into literacy, uh, you
36:45
know, as a, as a holistic approach is what are
36:48
you communicating to the bot and what is it doing
36:51
that you either wanted to do or that you don't
36:54
want it to do? Because ultimately, if you don't
36:57
want to do something, you have to be explicit
37:00
and tell it, don't do that. And so. That's the
37:05
whole idea around the accepting is giving me
37:08
a response and therefore I'm going to just take
37:11
it for what it is. I asked this in a workshop
37:14
last week. I had folks do a Google search and
37:18
I said, I remember when the Google user interface
37:21
was the following. So on the center column, you
37:23
had your search results and over to the right,
37:26
you had sponsored links. And I go, do a quick
37:29
Google search. And I go, what do you see? What
37:32
do you think? And what do you wonder based on
37:33
what I told you the early days of the Google
37:36
search interface? And of course, what is it?
37:38
Those sponsored links are no longer to the right,
37:41
they're in the center column. And they're the
37:43
first set of links. And I go, so that's an example
37:46
of both information and media literacy. What
37:49
is it trying to get me to do? And what information
37:53
is it presenting to me? And how valuable is that
37:55
information based on the syntax I use for that
37:58
search query? Is it telling me what it wants
38:00
me to click on, or is it telling me what I need
38:04
the most? And that's why you got to understand
38:06
how these systems are built, because if you understand
38:08
how the system is built, then it can help you
38:10
be a much more judicious user and consumer of
38:15
the information that is turning out. And that
38:17
same skill set applies to all of our artificial
38:21
intelligence platforms, especially the generative.
38:23
AI platforms is you have to understand that it's
38:26
going to give you a response. It's not going
38:28
to ask you any additional questions unless you
38:31
tell it. Ask additional questions. I've even
38:36
normalized things like ask it. Is this enough
38:39
context for you to provide the next best answer
38:42
for the needs that I have at this time? Like
38:46
even something like that, but we have to we have
38:49
to develop that conscious awareness and that
38:51
skill set to normalize doing that because I go
38:54
back to like my story in school and I even even
38:57
in terms of things like Like when I taught I
39:01
remember it was very popular, you know, and I
39:03
thought it was a good idea at first But it was
39:05
very popular for teachers to incorporate a thing
39:08
that Google did as far as their corporate culture
39:10
I don't know if they still do it It was called
39:12
20 % time which means 20 % of the time that you're
39:15
on the job at Google You can work on a pet project
39:17
of your own accord and the whole idea was we
39:20
should do that in school Let students like 20
39:22
% of your time in school. What is it that you
39:25
want to learn? What is it you want to do any
39:27
any and you know anything you want? And I remember
39:30
for me, my counter to that or my pushback, if
39:34
you will, it wasn't that I disagreed with it.
39:36
It was, that's not realistic because I know for
39:39
me, for years, the students would be like, well,
39:42
I don't know. Why don't you just tell me? I mean,
39:44
think about how often, even now, what does a
39:46
student need to get the A? Because it's not,
39:49
it's not the agency thing. It's the... I'm used
39:52
to being schooled rather than educated. And so
39:55
therefore, if that's the way it works, then that's
39:58
the way I need to adjust what I do in order to
40:00
be successful. You know, it's the whole idea
40:02
around conformity and compliance rather than
40:06
agency and advocacy. And that same thing applies
40:09
with AI. Same thing applies. We have to don't
40:12
conform and comply with what it does, assert
40:14
your own agency. and question everything that
40:17
it does, and be judicious about what you communicate
40:20
via your prompts to make sure that you're getting
40:23
the most usable response, not the response it
40:26
thinks that you want. I think I've seen recently,
40:31
and maybe it's, you know, currently what Gemini
40:33
is on, Gemini 3, I think Chad GPT is on five
40:38
point something or other. Yeah, but when I've
40:41
done some more advanced prompting and engaging
40:45
with the chatbot in the more thinking type modes,
40:49
that it is showing me as it's working on its
40:53
generation, it'll say, I am searching this site
40:57
right here, or I am compiling data from this
41:00
place and this place. And so I've really appreciated
41:03
that it's starting to explain some of the...
41:06
You know the the process is that I don't want
41:08
to call it thinking. I'm not trying to personify
41:10
it, but you know it's showing me the steps that
41:13
it's taking and how it's coming to the generation
41:17
that it ultimately comes to. And I think that's
41:19
a good skill perhaps that we should just get
41:21
used to. Even if the if we're in a model that
41:24
doesn't do that, but that we suggest that explain
41:26
your reasoning. you know why are you giving me
41:30
what you're giving me you know and and part of
41:33
that i know you talked about too is you know
41:34
question where is it getting its information
41:36
and you know and what evidence is it using to
41:39
support but is there would you suggest that or
41:42
would you suggest some you know something along
41:44
those lines to make sure that you're getting
41:47
the best results possible yeah no i knew you
41:50
point out so it's important what you pointed
41:52
out i and i wonder how many folks see it doing
41:56
that but There's a catch with that. And the catch
41:59
is you're likely to see that at the source platform.
42:03
So in other words, you're likely to see that
42:05
using Gemini, using ChatDBT, using Claude. The
42:10
AI and education platforms that are derivatives
42:13
of those, you're not going to see that. And so
42:15
that's problematic for me on several things.
42:17
So that's number one. Number two is a good rule
42:21
of thumb is, yeah, I see it doing that, but you
42:24
know what else I'm going to do? include in the
42:26
results every link that you reference in generating
42:30
the response. So not only am I seeing it, I want
42:33
you to put those links in that response so I
42:35
can then go, and again, this is the information
42:38
literacy part, I can go and confirm those links
42:41
because I've talked to teachers who've done that
42:43
and they've said, oh, I saw I did this and this
42:46
and this. How do you know those are valid links?
42:49
Because sometimes they're not, or. Sometimes
42:53
it's a valid link but it's not necessarily the
42:56
best place for the information that it reference
42:59
from that link but again that's that's part of
43:02
the. I will receive process it's the way you
43:06
do that my concern with what you shared is not
43:10
what you shared it's going back to you how often
43:13
are students if you think in terms of terms of
43:15
service and age restrictions. Students, technically,
43:20
they're not, especially in the context of school,
43:21
they're not supposed to be using Chad GPT, for
43:24
example. So they're not gonna see what you just
43:27
described. It's, oh, use this education platform.
43:30
Well, that education platform doesn't do that.
43:33
And so then now you're going to develop this
43:35
experience of expecting that the answer is going
43:38
to be exactly what you want without it proving
43:41
where it got that response from. And so, yeah,
43:44
I think. I think there's a good thing around
43:47
that. I know that that functionality for a while
43:51
only existed with a premium account as well.
43:56
And so again, if you don't have access to that,
44:00
then what's the prompting protocols and evaluatory,
44:04
cognitive evaluatory processes you have for the
44:07
response that you basically. either tell it to
44:10
confirm where it's getting its information from,
44:13
or confirm where you're getting your information
44:14
from, and include relevant links and citations.
44:18
You see, like, there's a way to circumvent that
44:21
if it's not normalized as the default in the
44:24
platform. Are there ways, are there rules to
44:28
do that? Yeah. Are there effective ways to get
44:31
AI to fact check itself? Like, you know, can
44:35
you ask it? Could we ask them, expect to say,
44:38
hey, what did you leave out or what did you assume?
44:40
Or is it just gonna, or is it gonna be the confident
44:43
guesser? It's gonna be the confident guesser,
44:46
although, and it's, okay. So it's gonna be the
44:49
confident guesser by default, but I did this
44:53
in, I do this in my advanced AI workshop, is
44:58
when, and I've got probably, I have. Five different
45:04
chats in chat GBT and five different ones in
45:07
Claude, because I want people to see that, you
45:10
know, and I say this all the time, just because
45:12
they're both LLMs does not mean they work the
45:15
same. Okay. Cause they don't. But to your point
45:17
around, is it going to, uh, if you tell it, you
45:21
know, there are gaps in this or any other. What's
45:23
interesting is dependent upon the chat. I've
45:26
watched it and I share this with people where
45:28
it will literally go through. At least six of
45:32
the 10 psychological defense mechanisms that
45:34
people do. Uh, and I have that in a couple of
45:38
chats where I'm like, and I read off all 10 and
45:40
I'm like, so now that you know, all 10 watch
45:42
this. And I literally show them the chat and
45:44
you see everything from denial to rationalization,
45:48
to desensitization, displacement, uh, uh, sense
45:53
of attribution and, uh, social conformity. Those
45:56
are the top ones that it will do, uh, where I'm
45:59
like, Yeah this information you're sharing is
46:02
not accurate where you getting this from it was
46:04
fun you're right to call me on that but here's
46:06
what i found out. And like okay so now you're
46:09
trying to rationalize it if it's fascinating
46:11
to watch out but this is why for me my whole
46:14
idea and approach that i encourage folks is if
46:17
you're developing. A strong approach to literacy
46:21
then you know that it's going to do that and
46:24
then now how do you develop the prompting protocols
46:26
to at least mitigate. that from happening. So
46:34
if you're looking at like, what does a, as you
46:37
talk, as we get into students using AI, what
46:41
does that look like when they're interacting
46:43
with this? What do, what do teachers need to
46:46
be maybe aware of when students are using AI
46:50
as part of an assignment? I mean, the first thing
46:54
I always bring up, and I think I brought this
46:55
up in, I hope I brought it up in any of the sessions
46:58
I did that we were together at FETC. I mean,
47:03
the first question I always ask students, I don't
47:05
even say, you know, are you using AI? I'm like,
47:07
I know you are. I know you have, I know you are.
47:09
So let's just, we're good with that, okay? I'm
47:12
not gonna criticize you for that. However, I
47:15
do have a question. And I say, if I were to draw
47:17
a semicircle with, you know, a line that goes
47:20
from, you know, for example, you know, like a,
47:23
like a speedometer, if you will. So it goes from
47:25
left to right. Okay. And then there's a point,
47:27
there's a line. I go, my question to you is the
47:29
following. There's, I use AI to help me with
47:33
my learning. And then there's that line. And
47:35
then now AI is replacing my thinking. And what
47:37
I said to students is, where's that line for
47:39
you? Do you know? And rarely do I get an answer.
47:45
I'm like, well, that's an important thing to
47:47
know because are you okay with Something replacing
47:51
or thinking in other words. I always say is I'm
47:53
gonna give it to you and in a real talk capacity
47:55
I'd like to know a situation of which you are
47:58
okay with someone else speaking for you And almost,
48:03
pretty much 100 % of the time, students are like,
48:05
I'm not okay with that. I'm like, right. So then
48:07
why would we be okay with an AI system that you
48:09
don't understand, you can't explain, and you
48:12
don't know how it works? Why would you be okay
48:14
with that doing your thinking for you? So now
48:16
it's important to identify where is that line
48:19
and how can you develop a conscious awareness
48:21
of when you're close to that line, but not go
48:24
over it. Yeah, that's a very interesting concept
48:28
because it almost to me seems like this goes
48:30
back to what you're saying before is when you're
48:32
just doing school you're like playing that game
48:35
and it really interesting that you bring that
48:38
up because I think it's a tell that if If the
48:42
two of us are having a conversation You you want
48:45
your thoughts to be your own and I want my thoughts
48:47
to be my own and we don't abdicate that our thoughts
48:50
to some somebody else like you just mentioned
48:52
but is it is it a thing of like They're okay
48:57
with it in that particular scenario because they're
49:00
just trying to get that thing done that is expected
49:03
of them and they've got a you know, I've got
49:05
to get this assignment turning the teacher so
49:07
for that I don't really care if it thinks for
49:09
me because I Mean is that kind of what you're
49:13
getting at or can you talk to me? You're right.
49:15
You're absolutely right It's so my thing that
49:17
I bring up to teachers all the time is one of
49:20
your most definitive ways to quote unquote AI
49:23
proof learning is to prioritize a process over
49:26
the product. If I'm doing it just to get it done,
49:30
then it's just it's human nature to what is the
49:33
least resistant path for me to get to that end
49:35
result. That's just how it works. And so for
49:40
me, it's what I remind or what I share with folks
49:43
is when I taught, especially my last probably
49:46
10 years in the classroom is I would have up
49:50
on the wall in the classroom is I would tell
49:54
the students before you submit your projects
49:57
and before you engage in your reflection thinking
50:00
routine, here's a question I'm going to ask you,
50:04
but I put it up on the wall because I want you
50:06
to ask this of yourself. Is this my best work
50:09
at this time or is it my best work possible?
50:14
And I go, because of your best work at this time,
50:16
then my follow up questions are, how much more
50:18
time do you need? And what support do you need?
50:21
So it's your best work possible. And so that's
50:24
the same thing here. If it's, here's an assignment,
50:28
you got to do a five paragraph summary of this
50:30
book. And then that's it. Well, that assignment
50:35
needs to be redesigned because that's literally
50:38
just learning as a means to an end with the prioritization
50:40
of the end product. And, you know, my whole thing
50:43
is that, well, number one, why am I doing a summary
50:47
of a book? as opposed to what I encouraged. And
50:50
this is just one of many examples. What I encourage,
50:52
for example, teachers that have students read
50:55
books is why not support the students in synthesizing
50:59
the more the through lines and the thematic,
51:02
the prioritized thematic areas of that book into.
51:06
Contextual meeting for themselves so in other
51:08
words instead of me giving you a summary of what
51:10
i read why don't i take elements of that and
51:12
say okay how does that fit into my understanding
51:15
of the world my my lived experiences the things
51:18
that i know maybe important if they're if the
51:21
theme is around conflict then my thing would
51:24
be like you know what what what type of conflict
51:27
was introduced. in the book between the protagonist
51:29
and the antagonist. Based on your understanding
51:32
of that conflict, have you yourself experienced
51:34
something similar like that? How did you resolve
51:36
that conflict? How did your approach or your
51:38
resolution compare to that in the novel? You
51:40
see what I'm doing even with just that. That's
51:42
culture -responsive teaching, and that AI can't
51:45
write that for me. But it's also empowering to
51:48
the learner because it's, I know you read this,
51:50
but I actually want to know more of what you
51:52
think. That's authentic thinking and learning.
51:56
It's still it's still reading the book. It's
51:58
still getting a window into the voice and the
52:01
words of the author But it's synthesizing it
52:04
into now I'm going to use my own assessment my
52:07
own voice and my own words to identify similarities
52:11
commonalities or You know adjacent components
52:15
of the book to my own lived experience I think
52:19
that really brings back one of the concepts that
52:22
you started out our conversation with here is
52:25
this idea of providing an opportunity for students
52:28
to be able to visually tell their own stories.
52:32
the ideas that you talked about just here, getting
52:36
beyond the five paragraph essay is the only way
52:38
for a student to explain their thinking and demonstrate
52:42
their learning. I think finding a more multimodal
52:45
approach that students are going to have the
52:47
voice and choice for to be able to still get
52:51
to what's the ultimate outcome if you're focusing
52:54
on those ideas and the themes of conflict. Does
52:57
it have to be conflict with, you know, that you
52:59
can only describe in a written word, or is it
53:01
something you can podcast? Is it something that
53:03
you can add, uh, great infographics for? And,
53:06
and if Alt -A is going to help provide some of
53:09
those tools that allows you to do that and you
53:12
still start with it human, you have the AI help
53:15
with you and you finish it with it human and
53:17
still bringing that all together. Correct. I
53:21
mean, I'll share with you both this. So one of
53:23
the things I did, and I can even, if I were in
53:25
the classroom now, I would mention how AR would
53:27
fit into this. The use of conflict. When we were
53:30
doing our visual storytelling, I would tell the
53:31
students, usually in story, books, TV, movies,
53:35
there's only three types of conflict. Human versus
53:38
human, human versus nature, human versus machine.
53:40
That's it, okay? I go, if you think about all
53:43
the movies you've seen. There's there's that
53:45
and then I overlay that with the I've seen it
53:49
referenced in different numbers, but I will say
53:51
the nine steps of the hero's journey. OK, and
53:54
so then I'm like, OK, so why is it important
53:56
to have conflict and what happens to a story
53:59
if you have conflict with no resolution? Why
54:02
are those so? So in other words, the whole idea
54:04
for the students was what are some of the foundational
54:07
storytelling steps that's based on things you've
54:11
consumed yourself and how you will produce them?
54:14
Where if I were in a classroom, where does AI
54:16
fit into that? Now it would be things like I
54:18
have an idea, but I'm not quite sure how to,
54:21
how to germinate that into a full blown story.
54:24
Or I understand the steps of the hero's journey,
54:26
but I want to be able to assess if I were to
54:29
tell a story in that, in that, in that format,
54:32
which of those steps am I stronger stand and
54:34
which of those steps do I, is there an opportunity
54:36
for growth? Like that's what I would be using
54:39
AI for, because my whole thing there is like,
54:41
You need to understand the foundational and fundamental,
54:44
if you will, process of telling a story in that
54:48
using that as your template. But there's going
54:50
to be areas where you might say, OK, or you may
54:53
not even be aware of this is an area that's an
54:55
opportunity for me for growth, because I understand
54:58
I understand conflict, but I don't understand
55:00
a refusal of the call. What does that mean? Well,
55:03
that's what I would talk about it. But I would
55:04
say now here's how I can also help you with that.
55:08
When have you seen a movie where, you know, the
55:10
hero Uh, they know they need to go into action,
55:13
but they're kind of hesitant to do it. I did
55:17
that with a group of students where I talked
55:19
about, uh, the, the, the Marvel cinematic universe.
55:22
And I asked them, why was, why was, uh, the Avengers
55:27
age of Ultron? Why was that pivotal in phase
55:31
three of the MCU? Uh, cause they all, they all
55:33
said they were fans of the MCU. So that's why
55:35
I could use it. Why was age of Ultron? First
55:37
of all, what was the conflict? And I go, so there
55:39
were three or two. The conflict was human versus
55:42
human. It was Tony Stark, uh, recognizing that
55:45
the Avengers were very powerful and he needed
55:47
some sort of check on their power because he
55:49
couldn't control each other. Remember this is
55:51
after civil war. Okay. Which was you had, uh,
55:55
Captain America and you had, uh, Iron Man and
55:58
they were in conflict. So human versus human.
56:00
So then now you have Ultron. So you had the human
56:03
versus human. And then what do you do? I have
56:05
a machine, uh, resolution to this. But then ultimately
56:08
what happens now is human versus machine. Say
56:13
something like that, but again, this is an example
56:15
of how does AI fit into that? Well, it's, and
56:19
I would even honestly, I now I'm thinking about,
56:21
I would even design a chat bot reference to MCU
56:24
in the context of the hero's journey, introduction
56:27
of conflict, support the, uh, you know, support
56:30
the learners in developing an understanding of
56:33
all the steps. as well as the references to those
56:37
movies or the phase three. And so they have a
56:40
better and contextual understanding of what exactly
56:42
it is and what it looks like. I think you've
56:45
just given my son a pet project to work on here
56:47
because he'd be all into that. Oh, good. Good.
56:52
And we want to thank you for all the insights
56:55
and the conversation has been really great. We
56:58
want to get into we do have our lightning round,
57:00
some kind of fun, quick hit questions. And this
57:03
is just to be more about about the person who
57:07
Ken Shelton is. So these are always they're totally
57:10
up to you. I mean, sometimes people it's like
57:12
one word response or if you want to take something
57:15
and run with it, feel free. But I'll kick things
57:17
off here. What's what's a small daily habit you
57:21
swear by that keeps you grounded? Self -care.
57:27
Whatever that may be, I encourage educators.
57:29
What what are you prioritizing during your day
57:33
that allows you to refill your bucket? Self care
57:37
for sure. And you notice I'm being general specific.
57:42
It's it's it's highly individualized for me.
57:46
It's it's it's exercise for sure. But for some
57:49
folks, it might be meditation or something like
57:51
that. But whatever it may be, self care for sure.
57:55
So other than the integrate this podcast, what's
57:58
a book a podcast or an album? You've recommended
58:01
so many times that you should get a commission
58:03
for If you want to recommend ours, you know,
58:06
we can you know, yeah We'll give you 10 % of
58:09
nothing. I Mean geez so books it depends on who
58:14
it's to what the right who I'm making a recommendation
58:17
to but I mean, I would say most recently the
58:21
books, the color of law, uh, by, uh, was it Richard
58:25
Rothstein? Uh, if it's an educator, it's where
58:28
all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria.
58:31
Podcasts. I recommend quite a few of the Freakonomics
58:34
radio episodes as well, especially there's two
58:37
that I love, which is, uh, they're, they're two
58:40
parter. It's about, um, fraud and academia. That'll
58:43
blow your mind, especially for the folks that,
58:46
oh, well, the research, the research, that's
58:47
why I love those two. It's a. I think it's why
58:50
is there so much fraud in academia and how to
58:52
stop fraud in academia. But I love, for example,
58:56
revisionist history, Malcolm Gladwell. Those
58:58
are, those are awesome. Album, depends on what
59:03
kind of music. I tell people arguably one of
59:06
the greatest albums ever made that I grew up
59:09
listening to was Stevie Wonder songs in the key
59:11
of life. For sure. Or the miseducation of Lauren
59:15
Hill is another one. So it depends, but. My thing
59:20
is, are you reading? Are you listening? Are you
59:22
learning? That's a, that's a, that's a good one.
59:24
I I'm, I'm a hip hop fan and I was a Fuji's fan
59:27
growing up. So there you go. There you go. There
59:31
you go. Again, I'm recommending it to you. I,
59:35
uh, uh, recently I was, I, I did a workshop where
59:38
I was telling the folks, uh, cause They were
59:41
using an ai platform there was two there suino
59:44
and murekka where you can have a generate music
59:47
for you and i said what do you understand. The
59:50
nuance of genre and how there are there are if
59:53
you were look at a tree for example you have
59:55
rock and that they have alternative then you
59:57
have new age and so on and so forth the reason
1:00:00
why i mentioned that was i i challenge my said
1:00:02
so what genre would you put rage against the
1:00:05
machine or lincoln park in that. And of course,
1:00:09
that was my point with that was there's there's
1:00:12
overlap and crossover and new genres emerge based
1:00:15
on new styles. And I just happen to be a huge
1:00:18
fan of both. If you had a totally free Saturday,
1:00:24
what would you do from morning to night? Spend
1:00:28
it outdoors. And when you outdoors, I mean, I
1:00:34
try to do that, that kind of connects back to
1:00:36
not so much number one, but I'm going, I live
1:00:40
in Los Angeles, so I'm going to the beach and
1:00:42
going in the water, or I'm going hiking, I'm
1:00:44
going fishing, I'm going mountain biking, but
1:00:47
100 % would be spending outdoors all day. What's
1:00:51
something that people assume about you from your
1:00:53
work that's not true in real life? That it comes
1:00:56
easy. And I remind folks that for a lot of us
1:01:03
in education, especially if we... I have the
1:01:05
opportunity to be on stage is that there was
1:01:07
an old saying back, back when I tried to carve
1:01:11
a career in acting and modeling, after I unsuccessfully
1:01:13
tried to have a professional football career,
1:01:17
the saying is that I was an overnight success
1:01:20
10 years in the making. So yeah, it's, oh, it
1:01:24
comes easy. It's easy. Like there's a lot of,
1:01:27
you got to put in the work. What's the most surprising
1:01:33
place that you've gotten your best idea from?
1:01:37
Not one place, but from travel. And I fully acknowledge
1:01:42
travel is a privilege, but definitely it's a
1:01:47
lot of the ideas and many of my talks are the
1:01:49
results of me navigating either a new city, a
1:01:53
new language or a new experience. For sure, but
1:01:58
travel for sure. Awesome. Okay. We're gonna try
1:02:01
a little bit of this or that. Okay. Now it is
1:02:04
just one word answer and it's one or the other
1:02:07
There's no we're very binary here. Okay Are you
1:02:10
an early morning deep work person or a late -night
1:02:13
craving burst creation person early morning?
1:02:17
Do you plan it out or do you improvise? Both
1:02:22
Find what you have luck. Okay ran it out. So
1:02:27
I'm gonna tell you I bowed I played, I played
1:02:31
college football. So the whole idea, if you think
1:02:34
about it, the way football works, you plan it
1:02:36
out. You have your exactly. I was a receiver.
1:02:39
So you have your offensive scheme and you develop
1:02:41
your game plan, but in real time in the game,
1:02:44
you have to improvise on its audibles. So it's,
1:02:47
it's planted out, but I also recognize the importance
1:02:50
of improvising. Okay. Then I'm throwing one in
1:02:53
here. Stock block or crack block. Well for me
1:02:59
my position it was always crack blocking that's
1:03:02
I played linebacker. I hated you I'm kidding
1:03:06
and the rules are different now of course. I
1:03:08
can't be below the waist among other things,
1:03:11
but yeah, yeah, yeah Well, you're California
1:03:15
guy. Would you rather go the mountains or the
1:03:16
ocean? Who I love both, but I if I have to pick
1:03:21
ocean for sure coffee tea Both, but I'm a coffee
1:03:28
drinker. It's really I'm a snob for both Perfect.
1:03:32
How about would you rather use paper pencil or
1:03:35
use tech? It depends on what I'm doing You're
1:03:40
copping out on a lot of these answers I could
1:03:42
tell that's no okay. So what I'm when I'm developing
1:03:46
a new talk I use pen and sticky notes and then
1:03:50
I go to tech Sure Do you use AI more for brainstorming
1:03:55
or reflecting? Definitely more for brainstorming
1:04:00
and idea generation. Perfect. And would you rather
1:04:04
do a big keynote or a small group workshop? How
1:04:08
big is the keynote? Like in other words, audience.
1:04:12
Yeah. You pick how big is big. You've seen bigger
1:04:15
audiences. Yeah. I mean, the workshops are great,
1:04:19
but honestly I love being on stage. I did theater
1:04:24
for a long time as well. So, yeah, I want to
1:04:26
be on stage. That's my favorite. That's my happy
1:04:28
place. Cool. Dave, you got the last one? Yeah.
1:04:35
So, Ken, I want to see. So when you do a keynote,
1:04:39
what is your walk up song? Let's say you're doing
1:04:41
one tomorrow. What's your watch song? So I have
1:04:44
two that I request, but it depends on the audience
1:04:47
and the venue. So one is Thunderstruck by ACDC.
1:04:53
And then the other one is a theme from Shaft.
1:04:58
Nice. So it depends. Actually, there's a third
1:05:03
one. I'm doing one later this week and they asked
1:05:05
for the walk -up song. And I, I said, um, lovely
1:05:08
day by Bill Withers. Cause I love, I am a huge
1:05:13
Bill Withers fan as well. I got to see you dance
1:05:15
it out to the stage on that one too. You know,
1:05:17
but you see there all three are very different
1:05:21
Joe. Yup. Well, Ken, we want to thank you for
1:05:25
your time. We really appreciate it. And it was
1:05:27
great conversation. And hopefully we'll see you
1:05:29
at a conference soon or something, but thanks
1:05:32
again. Is there anything you want to plug or
1:05:34
they want to just mention that we will include
1:05:36
stuff in the show notes, but if there's anything
1:05:38
you want to mention? Yeah, I mean, just my, my,
1:05:40
my plug would be for folks listening to definitely
1:05:43
take notes, rewind and listen to the relevant
1:05:47
parts of this episode that most residents that
1:05:50
were most resonant with you. And then as far
1:05:52
as plugs go, please consider picking up a copy
1:05:54
of the book that I co -authored, which is The
1:05:57
Promises and Perils of AI and Education. Ethics
1:05:59
and Equity have entered the chat. And yeah, any
1:06:03
listeners, if I happen to be at a conference
1:06:05
near you or when you're attending, please by
1:06:07
all means come say hi. I may sometimes be on
1:06:10
stage, but I am not unapproachable and, you know,
1:06:13
to the point. you know, I like to be on stage,
1:06:15
but I also engage thoroughly enjoy, you know,
1:06:19
the smaller intimate conversations as well. So.
1:06:23
Great. Well, we'll include some links and things
1:06:25
to the book and all that in the show notes. And
1:06:27
again, we really appreciate your time and thanks
1:06:30
again. Thanks again. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks
1:06:40
for listening to integrate this. Want to take
1:06:42
your learning further? Head over to our YouTube
1:06:45
channel for quick tutorials, deep dives, and
1:06:48
more edtech tips you can use right away. Don't
1:06:51
forget to subscribe and catch new podcast episodes
1:06:54
every Thursday on Apple, Spotify, or wherever
1:06:58
you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep
1:07:01
exploring, keep innovating, and keep integrating
1:07:05
this.