Latest / The Higherside Chats / Joshua Cutchin & Ryan Grulich | The Lady Of The Lake, Disclosure Doubts, & Ego Death At The Threshold

Transcript

Joshua Cutchin & Ryan Grulich | The Lady Of The Lake, Disclosure Doubts, & Ego Death At The Threshold · The Higherside Chats

• 0:06
  The planets buffet masters
• 0:09
  almost surely have a plan.
• 0:13
  There's clearly maybe something
• 0:16
  there beyond the realm of man.
• 0:20
  And until we've thoroughly tested
• 0:23
  every last close chested view,
• 0:27
  I find the more we think we know,
• 0:31
  the less we really do.
• 0:34
  Where would we be
• 0:37
  without THC?
• 0:41
  Because we know they're lying to us. Just
• 0:45
  don't know
• 0:46
  to what degree
• 0:48
  where would we be
• 0:51
  without THC.
• 0:55
  The higher side chat show
• 0:57
  Greg Carlwood and company.
• 1:00
  Like a cheeseburger in paradise from the sunshine
• 1:03
  state. I'm Greg Carlwood. And while we seem
• 1:05
  to be deep in psyops season and the
• 1:08
  political changing of the guard has all sorts
• 1:10
  of strange shenanigans going on, there is something
• 1:13
  more timeless and no better understood that seems
• 1:16
  to invade the lives of everyday people regardless
• 1:18
  of their age, location, or feelings about it.
• 1:21
  A thing that sometimes presents itself as strange
• 1:24
  creatures with magical powers or frail beings coming
• 1:27
  from foreign machines and it sometimes latches onto
• 1:29
  the psyche of those who have cracked open
• 1:31
  the door and is often hard to shake
• 1:33
  off.
• 1:34
  And the strangest aspect of these things we
• 1:36
  lump under the paranormal umbrella is the large
• 1:39
  overlap they seem to have with individuals and
• 1:41
  states of trauma, tragedy, hopelessness and even death.
• 1:45
  Sometimes these strange beings deliver messages from the
• 1:48
  dead or are even seen as companions for
• 1:51
  the dearly departed.
• 1:52
  And then we have ghost stories and legends
• 1:54
  that seem to spring up from nearly every
• 1:56
  city in town across this island Earth,
• 1:59
  where tragic and sudden violent death seem to
• 2:01
  disrupt whatever the life death transition normally is.
• 2:04
  And sometimes it seems like a person's energy
• 2:07
  is stuck or imprinted in the landscape.
• 2:09
  It's hard to know what causes what in
• 2:11
  these circumstances
• 2:13
  or know why some get this haunting treatment
• 2:15
  and others transition more smoothly,
• 2:17
  but those seemingly unable to transition don't usually
• 2:21
  have a story that starts with dying peacefully
• 2:23
  in one sleep.
• 2:24
  Well, we know damn well that one of
• 2:26
  the living legends of paranormal research is the
• 2:29
  prolific and powerful Joshua Joshua Cutchen. He's been
• 2:32
  here 5 times before talking about his books,
• 2:35
  A Trojan Feast, The Food and Drink Offerings
• 2:37
  of Aliens, Fairies and Sasquatch.
• 2:39
  The Brimstone Deceit, an in-depth examination of supernatural
• 2:43
  scents, otherworldly odors and monstrous miasmas.
• 2:46
  Where the Footprints End, High Strangeness in the
• 2:48
  Bigfoot Phenomenon volumes 1 and 2, as well
• 2:51
  as Ecology of Souls, a new mythology of
• 2:54
  death and the paranormal volumes 1 and 2.
• 2:57
  And today, he is joined by filmmaker Ryan
• 3:00
  Grolick of Creepy Kingdom to talk about a
• 3:02
  recently released true crime paranormal documentary they collaborated
• 3:06
  on titled Lady of the Lake about a
• 3:09
  murder victim, some odd things about her death,
• 3:11
  and the ghostly woman seen around the lake
• 3:14
  years after.
• 3:15
  I've watched it, I got questions, and I'm
• 3:17
  psyched to get into it with them. The
• 3:19
  murder mystery movie makers, Lake Crescent lost investigators,
• 3:23
  and tellers of forgotten tales, Josh and Ryan.
• 3:26
  Ryan and Josh, happy to have you here.
• 3:28
  How the hell are you?
• 3:30
  It's great to be here. The best intros
• 3:32
  in the business. I know you're probably tired
• 3:33
  of hearing that by now, but it's true.
• 3:35
  It's all part of the 9 to 5.
• 3:37
  Thanks for having us.
• 3:38
  Of course. So there is quite a bit
• 3:40
  I hope we can talk about, but, of
• 3:42
  course, we start with why we do the
• 3:43
  dance and that is this film, Lady of
• 3:46
  the Lake. I understand it all started with
• 3:48
  an email from Ryan as just a fan
• 3:51
  of Josh's work
• 3:52
  and really who isn't,
• 3:53
  but then it turned into this documentary
• 3:56
  project. And I'm curious with all the
• 3:59
  strange unsolved murders and paranormal stories out there,
• 4:03
  why this story of a murder victim from
• 4:07
  1937
• 4:08
  tossed in
• 4:09
  Lake Crescent in Washington state?
• 4:12
  Great question. So as I sit here today
• 4:15
  in sunny Orlando, Florida,
• 4:17
  I am
• 4:19
  remembering
• 4:20
  the not too distant past where I was
• 4:21
  a resident of the Pacific Northwest.
• 4:24
  This story
• 4:25
  sits colloquially in just sort of the whole
• 4:29
  area
• 4:29
  as one of those just anomalous cases.
• 4:32
  The condition of the body is really what
• 4:34
  was sort of almost fetishized in discussion.
• 4:37
  And so I was aware of the story
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  and just kind of as I started to
• 4:40
  dig deeper,
• 4:42
  there was a compulsion to follow it largely
• 4:44
  because of COVID.
• 4:45
  And we were trying to make a feature
• 4:46
  film, a narrative horror film, and we couldn't
• 4:49
  get a crew that big together. And so
• 4:50
  we started to pick a dock. This one
• 4:52
  emerged, and it literally took 4 years out
• 4:54
  of my life to get done, but we
• 4:56
  had a great time doing it. I wanna
• 4:58
  compound that with the fact that I'm a
• 5:00
  Disney nerd. And on December 21, 1937,
• 5:03
  this victim was murdered. However, also on December
• 5:06
  21, 1937, in a great synchronistic adventure, Walt
• 5:10
  Disney himself released Snow White and the Seven
• 5:12
  Doors at the Carthage Circle in San Francisco.
• 5:15
  And so when I saw that those two
• 5:16
  things collided, it was just more rocket fuel
• 5:18
  and I kept going.
• 5:20
  And it was the winter solstice, I understand.
• 5:23
  You understand correctly.
• 5:26
  Man, so, Josh, how did you get involved
• 5:28
  in this? Because when I heard about this,
• 5:30
  when you told me this was happening, I
• 5:32
  was like, oh, great. I'm gonna watch a
• 5:34
  documentary about Josh investigating
• 5:37
  this mystery, and that is not what I
• 5:39
  got.
• 5:40
  How are you involved?
• 5:41
  No. It's that face for radio thing again.
• 5:44
  Right?
• 5:45
  No. I started up a correspondence with Ryan
• 5:47
  sometime probably around pandemic, around that sort of
• 5:50
  time.
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  You know, I always try to be really
• 5:53
  diligent about answering emails and things like that.
• 5:57
  So I responded, and then it turned into
• 5:59
  phone correspondence, and then it evolved into what
• 6:02
  became a friendship. So Ryan and I would
• 6:04
  catch up. I think it was weekly for
• 6:05
  a while.
• 6:07
  And then,
• 6:08
  thankfully,
• 6:09
  I well, I was going through a little
• 6:11
  bit in 2020 as we all were.
• 6:13
  I'm not shy about it. I I was
• 6:15
  heading towards my August check-in to rehab for
• 6:17
  alcoholism.
• 6:18
  Coming up on 5 years now, we're all
• 6:20
  good. Heck yeah. Golf clap. But, you know,
• 6:22
  alcoholics aren't not necessarily the best people about
• 6:25
  getting back to correspondence. So between the, the
• 6:28
  collapse of my worldview and the collapse of
• 6:30
  my world, I sort of ended up ghosting
• 6:32
  you, Ryan, a couple of times, I'm afraid
• 6:33
  to say. No pun intended. Yeah. Right? But
• 6:36
  he was very tenacious, and we reconnected a
• 6:39
  couple of months
• 6:40
  later, and we continued to sort of bounce
• 6:42
  ideas off of each other. And it has
• 6:45
  emerged as this wonderful sort of collaborative friendship,
• 6:48
  and I'm really
• 6:50
  excited to see what has come of that,
• 6:52
  not only with Lady of the Lake, but
• 6:54
  with some of the things we have planned
• 6:55
  in the future. And just what I think
• 6:57
  is going to be a trend, hopefully,
• 6:59
  for paranormal media as we move forward,
• 7:02
  which is the continuous
• 7:05
  blending and blurring of distinctions between separate domains.
• 7:08
  And I think that's really what we need
• 7:09
  a lot more of is looking at the
• 7:11
  similarities between these
• 7:12
  parts of the phenomenon that we've often assumed
• 7:15
  have been discrete and separate and really showing
• 7:17
  how they all seem to have some sort
• 7:19
  of underlying connective tissue. Yeah, man. Yes. That's
• 7:22
  why I've always gravitated to you because I
• 7:24
  do like that comparative stuff. I like the
• 7:27
  blurring of the lines. I'm kind of over
• 7:30
  doing interviews with boomers who talk about the
• 7:33
  chain of custody of the meta materials from
• 7:35
  Wright Patterson to here to there. It's like,
• 7:38
  okay. Let's talk about something, like, weirder.
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  And when you open the door to this
• 7:43
  kind of stuff as a filmmaker,
• 7:45
  I'm looking at it. And the reason that
• 7:47
  I was so persistent
• 7:49
  in touching this with Josh, I don't know
• 7:50
  if I've really said this to you, but
• 7:52
  is that
• 7:53
  his work sits in that space where Ville
• 7:56
  sits, where Kiel sits, where
• 7:58
  these concepts,
• 8:00
  your head has to make it through the
• 8:01
  door at the end of this interview. But
• 8:03
  I think it's in that space, right, where
• 8:06
  we're not naming it, we're just exploring it.
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  And so as I was going through this
• 8:11
  with our subject, Amanda Paulson,
• 8:13
  alongside me and really digging deep into this,
• 8:16
  we were heading into territory where there were
• 8:18
  not easy definitions. This was a Fortean affair.
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  And in terms of modern Fortiana
• 8:23
  in America,
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  Josh is an easy person to go to
• 8:26
  and say, Hey, I have a nerdy question.
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  As a professional,
• 8:30
  until I moved to Florida, I was the
• 8:31
  CEO of a company. I rarely spoke about
• 8:33
  this kind of stuff ever.
• 8:35
  And so I was fluent with a lot
• 8:36
  of the different researchers, and it was an
• 8:38
  obvious
• 8:39
  choice for me to go to him and
• 8:40
  engage him. And so over time, he's being
• 8:43
  a little bit humble, but over time, he's
• 8:45
  been a real cornerstone in my thinking about
• 8:47
  how to approach some of this stuff and
• 8:49
  how to look at this domain of the
• 8:51
  larger phenomenon, like a meta phenomenon.
• 8:54
  And I think that for Lady of the
• 8:56
  Lake, in particular, as we'll get into it,
• 8:58
  you can see that we were talking about
• 9:00
  things like brownies that live out on the
• 9:02
  Olympic Peninsula and their relationship to potential satanic
• 9:06
  murders,
• 9:07
  and they're being seen at the Lady of
• 9:09
  the Lake. And it got strange real fast,
• 9:11
  so he was an ally there for sure.
• 9:13
  Love it. Love it. So, yeah, let's give
• 9:15
  people
• 9:16
  the structure,
• 9:18
  the bullet points of what this story is
• 9:21
  because it is a specific story. Like I
• 9:23
  mentioned, this woman died in 1937
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  on the winter solstice on the release of
• 9:29
  Snow White and the 7 dwarves.
• 9:31
  Not exactly relevant or maybe it's all connected.
• 9:33
  Who knows? But tell us the basic story
• 9:36
  of Haley so that people have a sense
• 9:38
  of what we're talking about.
• 9:40
  Yeah. So Haley Illingworth was born in Kentucky
• 9:44
  and migrated all the way across this great
• 9:46
  big country. Back in that day, it was
• 9:48
  not an insignificant feat to pretty much the
• 9:50
  edge of the world. Port Angeles is the
• 9:53
  northwestern
• 9:54
  most point of the United States. You can
• 9:56
  stand in the town and look across and
• 9:58
  Canada is visible.
• 9:59
  And so she was out kind of in
• 10:01
  the middle of nowhere
• 10:03
  and ended up in a position where she
• 10:05
  just took this really long journey, and it
• 10:07
  ended there for her. But the reason we
• 10:09
  know about her
• 10:11
  is because
• 10:13
  in July of 1940, 2 fishermen row up
• 10:15
  onto what they thought was, you know, some
• 10:18
  sort of detritus.
• 10:19
  In actuality, it was a hand sticking up
• 10:21
  out of the water vertically, which in and
• 10:24
  of itself is a tremendous anomaly and also
• 10:25
  harkens us back to the Arthurian legend of
• 10:27
  the lady of the lake where the hand
• 10:28
  is actually sticking up out of the water.
• 10:30
  Okay, that's actually how she was discovered.
• 10:33
  And there were pieces of the, flesh around
• 10:35
  her fingertip that were exposed. So her body
• 10:37
  was found this way, but we didn't know
• 10:39
  who this person was. When we pulled her
• 10:41
  out of the water, her body had saponified,
• 10:44
  and this is a chemical reaction that is
• 10:46
  also known as adiposere,
• 10:48
  corpse wax.
• 10:49
  What happens is under certain conditions, the body
• 10:52
  basically turns into a soap like substance. In
• 10:54
  a lot of places like down south in
• 10:56
  the US and France and some other humid
• 10:58
  places in the in the southern world, you'll
• 11:00
  see that graves are above the ground and
• 11:02
  that the reason for that is the water
• 11:04
  table. And so while in some places this
• 11:06
  is an anomalous, in Seattle area in the
• 11:08
  northwest, it was exceptionally anomalous.
• 11:11
  So when they discovered this body
• 11:13
  in Lake Crescent, which is a lake that
• 11:15
  is famous for literally never giving up its
• 11:18
  dead, and we can talk about the lake
• 11:20
  in more detail later, when they found this
• 11:22
  body, it was an instant mystery.
• 11:24
  The mystery was very well publicized. They ended
• 11:27
  up finding out who the victim was through
• 11:29
  some circumstance,
• 11:30
  but we know about her because of the
• 11:32
  conditions of her body. That's where this all
• 11:35
  started was in the strange anomaly of that
• 11:37
  and I think amplified by the colloquial sort
• 11:39
  of the lake never gives up its dead.
• 11:41
  It's a bottomless lake. And so from a
• 11:44
  mythology standpoint, she kinda springs out into the
• 11:47
  public.
• 11:48
  Mhmm.
• 11:48
  I read it as the second
• 11:50
  deepest lake in Washington state. I'm sure there
• 11:54
  are parts of it where it goes deeper
• 11:56
  than even is measured.
• 11:58
  I read that
• 12:00
  83 people, I think, have been reported missing
• 12:03
  around the lake, thought to have died in
• 12:05
  the lake most likely, but Haley is one
• 12:08
  of 3 that have ever been recovered or
• 12:11
  known to be recovered. So if they're unrecovered,
• 12:13
  I mean, you don't really know if they
• 12:14
  died in the lake or not. But we
• 12:16
  assume a lot of people have and very
• 12:18
  few are recovered.
• 12:19
  And,
• 12:21
  yeah, there's obviously a striking visual
• 12:24
  of a deep, deep lake,
• 12:26
  a body that's been underwater
• 12:28
  for 3 years, and then a hand is
• 12:30
  sticking out above the surface of the water,
• 12:33
  and that is what people see. And then
• 12:35
  the body is turned to a soap like
• 12:37
  substance.
• 12:39
  These qualities,
• 12:40
  how much of this do you think is
• 12:42
  related? Because Lady of the Lake, we're talking
• 12:44
  about basically a ghost story. There's stories in
• 12:47
  the area where people see a woman in
• 12:49
  white crying, walking around, and so there's a
• 12:52
  mythology that builds up. I mentioned in the
• 12:55
  intro, all across the country, there's little towns
• 12:58
  where it's like, go to these railroad tracks,
• 13:01
  say this name, and then you'll see the
• 13:03
  thing.
• 13:04
  This comes up all the time. So this
• 13:06
  is one of those kind of legends. There's
• 13:08
  this
• 13:09
  ghostly figure people see in the area.
• 13:11
  The assumption is it's pegged to
• 13:14
  Haley who went missing.
• 13:16
  Of these qualities, the arm sticking out, the
• 13:19
  soapification
• 13:20
  of the body,
• 13:22
  how related do you think some of these
• 13:24
  physical things are to the nonphysical
• 13:27
  weirdness of the story itself?
• 13:29
  Well, this is something that I've taken a
• 13:31
  greater and deeper interest in lately is the
• 13:33
  fact that we should be looking more closely
• 13:36
  at the story part of ghost story than
• 13:38
  we do at the ghost part.
• 13:40
  As Ryan sort of alluded to, there are
• 13:42
  a lot of archetypal fingerprints all over this
• 13:45
  whole narrative.
• 13:47
  Not only do you have the sort of
• 13:48
  woman in white thrusting her hand above the
• 13:50
  waves and an echo of the Arthurian lady
• 13:53
  of the lake, but
• 13:54
  some of the things that the story touches
• 13:57
  on are a little bit less publicized. The
• 13:59
  fact that the lake in question is
• 14:03
  supposedly bottomless and that it has a reputation
• 14:06
  for never giving up its dead, these are
• 14:07
  things that we see in a lot of
• 14:08
  lakes that are associated
• 14:10
  with certain mythological
• 14:12
  characters and creatures throughout the world.
• 14:15
  Specifically, the bottomlessness
• 14:17
  nature and the tendency to not yield its
• 14:19
  dead
• 14:20
  speaks directly to something that was
• 14:23
  mentioned as some of the criteria for lake
• 14:24
  monsters in one of my favorite lake monster
• 14:26
  books, Michel Mercier's Lake Monster Traditions. It's like
• 14:30
  Passport to Nagonia for lake monsters. It's an
• 14:32
  excellent book. But
• 14:34
  just the fact that you have these sort
• 14:35
  of archetypal themes popping up time and time
• 14:38
  again, I think doesn't really suggest
• 14:42
  a chicken or egg scenario or one or
• 14:44
  the other scenario, but really a both and
• 14:46
  sort of scenario. And that where the story
• 14:49
  of Halle's death and the lady of the
• 14:51
  lake
• 14:52
  belief that really has saturated the community, we
• 14:54
  can talk about that in a little bit
• 14:55
  too.
• 14:56
  Where those things meet is really what's at
• 14:59
  question here. And what I think is what
• 15:02
  really sets aside this documentary from a lot
• 15:04
  of other paranormal media out there, it truly
• 15:06
  becomes something that is less than just, you
• 15:09
  know, oh, it's a paranormal mystery with true
• 15:11
  crime elements. Like, yeah, that's in there, but
• 15:12
  it really does end up being a Fortean
• 15:15
  story because you do end up with these
• 15:18
  intersections of larger than life themes that aren't
• 15:21
  necessarily based on just the facts. Yes. The
• 15:23
  facts play into it, but there's also the
• 15:25
  bigger story that we ourselves weave and have
• 15:28
  woven
• 15:29
  over
• 15:30
  our lifetimes,
• 15:31
  over decades, centuries, and millennia.
• 15:33
  Mhmm. Well, I like that you said we
• 15:35
  should emphasize the story part because that is
• 15:38
  what I came away with and, you know,
• 15:40
  thinking about preparing to talk about this, like,
• 15:42
  how can I make this a little different?
• 15:43
  I mean, that is kinda what I thought
• 15:45
  about. The Lady of the Lake is an
• 15:47
  archetype,
• 15:48
  and so you start to think, man.
• 15:51
  So what causes
• 15:53
  the ghost phenomenon? It doesn't seem like it's
• 15:55
  the physical body because that was found in
• 15:57
  1940,
• 15:58
  yet the imprint in the area, the stories
• 16:01
  of some kind of ghost
• 16:03
  are
• 16:04
  still
• 16:05
  there. It would be interesting to know if
• 16:06
  those stories go away
• 16:08
  when more people see the documentary
• 16:11
  because the story is now told.
• 16:13
  Like, that would be maybe a mechanism because
• 16:16
  we've talked many times about trauma being associated
• 16:19
  with Fortian Paranormal Stuff. Well, maybe trauma isn't
• 16:23
  exactly the right word. Maybe it's like
• 16:26
  unresolved
• 16:27
  trauma would be maybe a more specific term
• 16:30
  that once something is resolved, maybe the energy
• 16:33
  is released. What do you think about something
• 16:35
  like that?
• 16:36
  Or the question that, you know, really comes
• 16:37
  to mind for me is that if Halley
• 16:40
  is deposited
• 16:42
  and later recovered from
• 16:44
  an area that's less strange or from
• 16:47
  a body of water that has less folklore
• 16:50
  attached to it in general,
• 16:52
  does this story take on the life of
• 16:53
  its own like it has in Port Angeles?
• 16:55
  Like, I think that's part of the question
• 16:57
  too. It's almost like a catalyst
• 16:59
  for the mythopoetic side to emerge into life.
• 17:02
  And to that extent, I think trauma itself
• 17:04
  can serve that similar role.
• 17:06
  And
• 17:07
  that's what I think that Ryan as director
• 17:10
  did an excellent job of showing, and I'll
• 17:12
  I'll let him speak to that here in
• 17:13
  a moment. But the fact that Halle was
• 17:16
  a person
• 17:17
  and had
• 17:18
  dreams and aspirations.
• 17:19
  And
• 17:20
  it's so easy to sort of slip into
• 17:22
  this trap
• 17:24
  of using
• 17:25
  victims as plot points or, you know, sort
• 17:28
  of deifying the killers when you're dealing with
• 17:31
  true crime. And I think Ryan's handling of
• 17:33
  the subject matter really sidestep both those issues
• 17:35
  in a good way. And to the contrary,
• 17:37
  it was actually a remedy for a lot
• 17:38
  of what we see. I don't know if,
• 17:39
  Ryan, you wanna speak to the role that
• 17:41
  trauma plays in this particular narrative.
• 17:44
  Sure. Everything you guys are saying is in
• 17:46
  line with what I found, and it's more
• 17:48
  of a yes and situation because
• 17:50
  what I found was that
• 17:52
  the community
• 17:54
  was struggling with the trauma. This is a
• 17:56
  place where, at this point in time,
• 17:59
  the population was really small, they were isolated,
• 18:01
  they weren't and still are not a big
• 18:03
  city, they did not have big city infrastructure.
• 18:05
  This murder really shook the town. And
• 18:09
  because of the implications of the trial
• 18:11
  once it started to happen and, like, all
• 18:13
  of the dynamics that were involved with it,
• 18:15
  it was very close to home. And so
• 18:18
  prior to the Internet, prior to the collapse
• 18:20
  of peer to peer communication in real space,
• 18:24
  we would actually engage in these sort of
• 18:26
  dialogues meaningfully as small communities. And I think
• 18:29
  one of the ways that we end up
• 18:31
  doing that is through story.
• 18:32
  And so at the end of the cycle,
• 18:35
  here where we are,
• 18:36
  story is now what Allie has become. Okay?
• 18:39
  She is a real person. She was alive.
• 18:41
  She was no longer with us. And I
• 18:43
  think you have to treat that with the
• 18:44
  respect that it deserves. I don't see it
• 18:47
  as a feat to humanize a person in
• 18:49
  these stories. I think it's a shame that
• 18:51
  they're not. Generally,
• 18:52
  I would assume it should be par for
• 18:54
  the course, not to go too golf on
• 18:56
  it, but that should be where it's at.
• 18:58
  So now she is a story to most
• 19:01
  people.
• 19:02
  And I think that the story that we're
• 19:04
  telling about Hallie and about a lot of
• 19:06
  these ladies of the lake or these different
• 19:08
  haunted
• 19:09
  locations
• 19:10
  is very similar to what you would get
• 19:12
  out of a thrill ride when you go
• 19:13
  to a theme park. You get on, you
• 19:15
  hop in, you say, Do a trick, ghost.
• 19:17
  And the phenomenon responds. And then you go
• 19:20
  home. And in the haunted Words of the
• 19:22
  Haunted Mansion, a ghost may follow you home
• 19:23
  and you don't even know it. You're just
• 19:26
  on this place where you're completely unaware of
• 19:28
  what you've escalated into. And I think that
• 19:31
  my intention with this was to, yes, humanize
• 19:34
  Halle Illingworth, but to also,
• 19:37
  hopefully,
• 19:38
  provide her with a vehicle to transcend victimhood.
• 19:41
  And by taking this story and shaping it
• 19:44
  the way we did, I hope that the
• 19:45
  sightings don't stop. I hope that this egregore
• 19:48
  gets bigger and bigger and that Halle is
• 19:50
  remembered as the lady of the lake and
• 19:53
  has a power that was taken away from
• 19:55
  her in life, restored to her in death.
• 19:57
  Well, that's an interesting take. Ambitious hopes. I
• 20:01
  know that you have talked to Mark Stavish
• 20:04
  in
• 20:05
  some bonus footage,
• 20:07
  and I'm assuming that's kind of where the
• 20:09
  egregore
• 20:10
  comment comes from.
• 20:11
  But what do you think about this relationship
• 20:14
  between
• 20:15
  an egregore
• 20:16
  and an archetype?
• 20:18
  Just this idea that
• 20:20
  a seemingly random
• 20:22
  situation,
• 20:23
  a murder, it kind of falls into
• 20:26
  being archetypal.
• 20:28
  You know, the killer didn't try to fulfill
• 20:30
  some archetype,
• 20:31
  so there's, like, a weirdness there. But, like,
• 20:34
  sometimes a murder does fall into
• 20:36
  that role. And, like, what is the difference
• 20:38
  between an egregore and an archetype? And what
• 20:42
  is it that people are seeing? Are they
• 20:43
  seeing an egregore? Are they seeing an archetype?
• 20:46
  Is there even much of a difference?
• 20:48
  I have to jump in. John Tenney says
• 20:51
  it very well.
• 20:52
  The aliens land on the White House lawn,
• 20:54
  and they get out. And the Secret Service
• 20:56
  is standing there with their guns pointed. And
• 20:58
  the aliens say,
• 21:00
  what do you guys know about these ghosts?
• 21:03
  The question, I think, is more so,
• 21:07
  what are we dealing with
• 21:09
  within ourselves
• 21:10
  when we experience these phenomena?
• 21:12
  And so in order to classify this and
• 21:15
  to try to give it a quantified reality
• 21:18
  of, like, being an archetype or being an
• 21:19
  egregore and what's the difference,
• 21:22
  I think you could get into semantics pretty
• 21:24
  quick, like you were suggesting. But the reality
• 21:27
  is that when you look at the work
• 21:29
  on Stavish and guys like that that are
• 21:31
  talking about this stuff, I think it's really
• 21:33
  great because it helps us to shape our
• 21:35
  minds around the fact that reality has a
• 21:37
  co creative nature, and that for me, the
• 21:40
  egregore itself is a clinical definition
• 21:43
  of feeding the archetype.
• 21:45
  Right? It becomes this group thought form where
• 21:48
  we're feeding an archetype.
• 21:50
  And that's really sort of what is happening,
• 21:52
  in my opinion, with a lot of these
• 21:53
  stories.
• 21:55
  Yeah. It's a bit like that definition of
• 21:56
  pornography. Right? You know it when you see
• 21:58
  it? Don't I ever?
• 22:00
  I think there's a quote that Jung has
• 22:02
  that is about
• 22:04
  how archetypes are like deep long ago cut
• 22:07
  riverbeds.
• 22:08
  And they may sit dry for a while,
• 22:10
  but when certain conditions are met, that's the
• 22:12
  course which the water chooses. And, you know,
• 22:15
  to that extent,
• 22:16
  I think that there are naturally forming riverbeds
• 22:19
  and there are some man made riverbeds too.
• 22:21
  And I think that with enough time and
• 22:24
  erosion,
• 22:25
  we can sort of form our own riverbeds.
• 22:26
  Although, I would suggest that they take quite
• 22:28
  a bit more time than these ones that
• 22:30
  were cut long ago.
• 22:32
  So I think that that might be sort
• 22:34
  of an open handed way to address that
• 22:37
  distinction.
• 22:39
  And
• 22:40
  I think that there are certain things, certain
• 22:43
  events, certain personalities
• 22:44
  that choose the path of least resistance
• 22:47
  from
• 22:49
  a underlying source code of the universe kind
• 22:51
  of perspective and fall into these pathways and
• 22:54
  these well worn waterways.
• 22:57
  And I think that when you see that
• 22:58
  happening, that is really sort of the activation
• 23:01
  of an archetype.
• 23:02
  And then when you see something that seems
• 23:04
  to be the product of collective belief, given
• 23:07
  enough time, that would fall a little bit
• 23:09
  more into the egregore category. Although the question
• 23:11
  is,
• 23:12
  are egregore's vehicles for forces beyond ourselves or
• 23:15
  are they purely the force of human will
• 23:17
  and the force of human belief?
• 23:19
  I'll have to remain ambivalent on that because
• 23:23
  that's a question with the sort of durable,
• 23:25
  long lasting
• 23:27
  implications that you have to sit with.
• 23:29
  It's the same kind of question that is,
• 23:31
  you know, are the spirits real, or are
• 23:33
  they all in your head? You know, it's
• 23:34
  the same kind of question. Yeah. I guess
• 23:36
  my thought is, like, if there is a
• 23:37
  life cycle to these things,
• 23:40
  an egregore
• 23:41
  seems like a young archetype or an archetype
• 23:44
  seems like an older egregore. But I like
• 23:46
  the whole thing about man made riverbeds because
• 23:48
  I I tend to use the term gravity.
• 23:50
  There's, like, a gravity that kinda pulls things
• 23:52
  in to an archetype. If it's close enough,
• 23:55
  like, maybe it comes 80% of the way,
• 23:57
  and then something else pulls it all the
• 23:59
  way into being a fulfillment of the archetype.
• 24:02
  And,
• 24:03
  yeah, it probably takes more time to try
• 24:06
  to
• 24:07
  game that or try to create
• 24:09
  an artificial riverbed, to use the same analogy.
• 24:13
  But, man, that's kind of what I think
• 24:15
  the little green men, sci fi, alien thing
• 24:18
  has been. I never heard it put in
• 24:20
  those terms really, but
• 24:22
  we always talk about, well, the presentation is
• 24:25
  what you expect to see. Things like that,
• 24:27
  obviously, are talked about all the time. But
• 24:29
  it seems like maybe
• 24:31
  the military
• 24:33
  set out on an operation
• 24:35
  to be like, I wonder if we can
• 24:37
  use Hollywood and use our own whistleblowers
• 24:40
  to infiltrate the conference scene and describe things
• 24:43
  in a certain way, and then just as
• 24:45
  an experiment,
• 24:47
  see what happens and see if people start
• 24:49
  seeing this. It seems like that is a
• 24:52
  great way to contextualize
• 24:54
  what I think a lot of that eighties
• 24:55
  nineties UFO stuff was is the attempt to
• 24:59
  create
• 25:01
  Edgar Gore archetype riverbed.
• 25:04
  I think that that's extremely prescient. I mean,
• 25:06
  I was asked recently at a conference about,
• 25:08
  you know, do you think the flying saucer
• 25:09
  is an archetype? And I'm like, well, it's
• 25:11
  on its way to becoming an archetype. I
• 25:12
  don't know if something with sort of that
• 25:14
  relatively short
• 25:17
  attention and focus as we know the modern
• 25:19
  UFO to be can really carve that riverbed,
• 25:21
  but
• 25:22
  transportation to the other world, the mandala, like,
• 25:24
  these things are archetypes. So it's almost as
• 25:26
  if if we're going to continue using this
• 25:28
  riverbed analogy,
• 25:30
  you know, a tributary is starting to wear
• 25:32
  away in the direction of the flying saucer
• 25:33
  and it'll be sort of an offshoot of
• 25:35
  that main waterway. And this is exactly what
• 25:39
  you're talking about, sort of the manipulation of
• 25:40
  the narrative or the mediation, as my friend,
• 25:42
  David Metcalfe would say, something that I've been
• 25:44
  giving a lot more attention to lately. Not
• 25:46
  to pivot us off of Lady of the
• 25:48
  Lake because I wanna bring us back around,
• 25:50
  but I'm working on a book that should
• 25:52
  be coming out this year called 4th Wall
• 25:54
  Phantoms. And among the many things that it
• 25:56
  deals with, in addition to fictions that become
• 25:59
  true
• 26:00
  are the possibility that we are the last
• 26:02
  people to really realize this, that you can
• 26:04
  sort of reinforce
• 26:07
  beliefs long enough that they sort of end
• 26:09
  up reflecting what your beliefs are. There's a
• 26:11
  passage that can't recall which book it was
• 26:13
  from. I believe it was transformation, but I
• 26:15
  might be mistaken.
• 26:17
  1 of Whitley Strieber's books, he mentions a
• 26:19
  memo from Wright Patterson that says that
• 26:21
  basically the alien invasion can be held at
• 26:24
  bay through orchestrated belief.
• 26:26
  And the idea that simply by denying them
• 26:28
  the power to enter our reality, we can
• 26:30
  keep them from our reality, which is an
• 26:32
  idea that I really do sympathize with quite
• 26:34
  a bit.
• 26:36
  Might speak to our current point in the
• 26:37
  timeline. You know, who knows?
• 26:40
  But, yeah, that's something that I I really
• 26:41
  do resonate with.
• 26:43
  It also speaks to the lady of the
• 26:44
  late, just to be clear.
• 26:46
  There is the suggestion or implication in the
• 26:48
  film that we're dealing with nonhuman intelligence.
• 26:50
  If you watch it, we're using the Estes
• 26:53
  method to try to engage what we perceive
• 26:55
  to be a nonhuman intelligence.
• 26:56
  And I don't ghost hunt. I've never seen
• 26:59
  a ghost hunting TV show to this day.
• 27:02
  I am very
• 27:04
  not fluent with the entire space post the
• 27:06
  spiritualism
• 27:07
  and Houdini trying to debunk it. And so
• 27:11
  I'm looking at that
• 27:12
  in exchange with nonhuman intelligence
• 27:15
  in a very different way. And what I
• 27:17
  see happening
• 27:18
  is exactly that question.
• 27:20
  Are we able to
• 27:22
  limit the
• 27:23
  transmission
• 27:25
  of whatever we're encountering
• 27:27
  by simply denying its existence?
• 27:29
  Do you have to buy the ticket to
• 27:31
  take the ride?
• 27:32
  How does this work?
• 27:34
  And I think that what I
• 27:36
  keep coming back to
• 27:37
  is
• 27:39
  how do people feel
• 27:41
  about what they're experiencing
• 27:43
  and how do people feel about the phenomenon
• 27:46
  in general has become ultimately more interesting to
• 27:49
  me than the mechanics of how it works
• 27:51
  because what we tried to do with this
• 27:52
  film was see how do people feel
• 27:55
  when they talk to us about Hallie and
• 27:57
  her life? How did Amanda feel about this
• 28:00
  whole entire process?
• 28:02
  And what are the similarities between her and
• 28:04
  Hallie Illingworth? And how do they align and
• 28:06
  collide as she goes and hunts for her?
• 28:08
  And so for me, that emotional component of
• 28:12
  story and of this story and kind of
• 28:14
  all of our stories
• 28:16
  is becoming, like I say, more fascinating than
• 28:18
  how the sausage gets made. But the point
• 28:21
  to me is there's definitely sausage.
• 28:24
  Right? There's definitely something that we're dealing with.
• 28:27
  Definitely.
• 28:27
  3 of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right here.
• 28:30
  Where's Amanda?
• 28:32
  Oh, I can't speak for her, but I
• 28:34
  watched someone sort of engage with that as
• 28:37
  a documentarian,
• 28:38
  and I really did come away feeling like
• 28:41
  the feelings
• 28:42
  are the things
• 28:43
  that probably matter the most.
• 28:46
  Right on. Well,
• 28:47
  on the subject of the feelings, like, this
• 28:50
  is something I copied down from Josh's last
• 28:53
  book, Ecology of Souls, and I was gonna
• 28:56
  try to shoehorn it in somewhere, and it
• 28:58
  fits right here. But this is a quote
• 29:00
  that is about the Tibetan book of the
• 29:03
  dead. And you write,
• 29:05
  the book explicitly guides readers through the afterlife,
• 29:08
  encouraging the dying to remain as lucid as
• 29:11
  possible when entering the Bardo between death and
• 29:13
  rebirth.
• 29:14
  Within this realm, the dead realize their fate
• 29:17
  over several days before experiencing the primary clear
• 29:20
  light at the death moment.
• 29:22
  Those who are enlightened see it and ascend.
• 29:25
  Others drop to a lower level,
• 29:27
  experiencing visions created by their karma, the good
• 29:30
  and bad deeds of life. They must confront
• 29:33
  both peaceful and wrathful beings,
• 29:35
  human emotions
• 29:36
  incarnate,
• 29:37
  if they wish to move towards Nirvana, liberation
• 29:41
  from reincarnation.
• 29:43
  According to Gregory Shushan, who I've interviewed since
• 29:45
  the last time we talked, the book so
• 29:47
  closely corresponds to the near death experience that
• 29:50
  it can effectively be seen as verification that
• 29:52
  the book genuinely is what it purports to
• 29:55
  be, a preparation for what happens at death.
• 29:58
  And I just thought the concept of confronting
• 30:01
  beings that are human emotions incarnate
• 30:05
  is definitely in the wheelhouse here. I recently
• 30:08
  interviewed someone
• 30:09
  who thinks that when a person has experiences
• 30:12
  like a Whitley Strieber archetype,
• 30:15
  that if you go back, it's probably
• 30:18
  unresolved trauma.
• 30:20
  Not that these
• 30:21
  beings are related or are attracted to the
• 30:24
  trauma, but that it's something manifesting from inside.
• 30:27
  Because you're not dealing with what's inside,
• 30:30
  you're projecting
• 30:32
  it out and it's coming at you from
• 30:34
  a third party perspective. But, I mean, that
• 30:37
  right there, human emotions incarnate, now that's after
• 30:39
  your dead, but if this mechanism is there
• 30:42
  in any way, shape, or form, maybe the
• 30:45
  lines between life and death and these things
• 30:47
  spilling over into life are there. Maybe that's
• 30:50
  a pretty good clue to what the answer
• 30:52
  to these things are.
• 30:54
  Yeah. I mean, I find myself sympathizing with
• 30:56
  ideas and concepts like idealism
• 30:59
  more and more lately, the idea that
• 31:01
  everything is based in consciousness. And I think
• 31:03
  that
• 31:04
  perhaps emotions are the very thing that reality
• 31:07
  runs on. Right? And it's part of the
• 31:09
  reason that I've become sort of frustrated with
• 31:13
  people needing any sort of proof
• 31:16
  for these things to exist. And I don't
• 31:18
  just stop at, you know, photographic evidence or
• 31:21
  audio evidence.
• 31:22
  I'm talking about, you know, your eyes and
• 31:24
  ears, you know, like I it frustrates me
• 31:26
  and maybe I've just been doing this for
• 31:27
  a little bit too long, but it frustrates
• 31:29
  me that we seed
• 31:32
  supremacy
• 31:33
  of those senses.
• 31:35
  We see the supremacy of our other senses
• 31:37
  to those senses. Right?
• 31:38
  We have to see it. We have to
• 31:40
  hear it. We have to smell it as
• 31:42
  I've talked about. And I'm starting to see.
• 31:44
  Even if you don't have any of those
• 31:46
  things going on, there is such a thing
• 31:47
  as feeling something in your gut. There is
• 31:49
  a world between your ears, which is probably
• 31:52
  no different from the world
• 31:53
  around your ears and outside.
• 31:55
  And I think that so much about our
• 31:58
  lives would make a good deal more sense
• 32:00
  if we could really grasp the false dichotomy
• 32:02
  between interior worlds and exterior worlds. And to
• 32:05
  start to realize that these things are both
• 32:07
  reflections of one another and that we don't
• 32:09
  necessarily have to see something or hear something
• 32:11
  to know it's there.
• 32:12
  And that might really be all that psychics
• 32:15
  are tapping into, right? They're sort of abandoning
• 32:18
  the pretense that we need to see or
• 32:20
  hear things audibly with our organs
• 32:23
  and we can just sort of reflect and
• 32:25
  pay more attention to those inner ways of
• 32:27
  being. I think that might be what's going
• 32:28
  on with psychics in general. Could be. And
• 32:31
  there's this world of felt experience. Right? So
• 32:34
  anybody who has had any sort of experiences
• 32:37
  with the paranormal
• 32:38
  or strange, which I have throughout my life.
• 32:41
  And if you have had those moments, then
• 32:44
  you have your own language for them, and
• 32:45
  you have your own approach to what they
• 32:47
  could be, and you wrestle with that probably
• 32:50
  for your entire life. And so it's gonna
• 32:52
  be unique to everybody because everybody does have
• 32:54
  a different opinion. Everybody does have a different
• 32:56
  culture and background. But what's really
• 33:00
  sad is that we are obligated
• 33:03
  to apply ourselves
• 33:05
  to a post industrial
• 33:07
  sort of mentality
• 33:08
  when looking at something that is literally a
• 33:11
  primeval part of the human experience,
• 33:13
  and possibly the larger cosmic experience. Right? And
• 33:17
  so when I think about
• 33:19
  whether
• 33:20
  a particular
• 33:21
  experience may be valid or not, again, I
• 33:24
  go back
• 33:25
  to how does that person feel about it.
• 33:27
  Right? And so for whatever reason,
• 33:30
  we have shied away from listening to each
• 33:32
  other. And I think that that unresolved trauma,
• 33:35
  Greg, to your point, is a byproduct of
• 33:37
  us not listening to each other and not
• 33:39
  talking to each other and not resolving issues
• 33:42
  at scale, which is part of this meta
• 33:44
  crisis that we exist in today. And I
• 33:46
  go back to reality and the nature of
• 33:48
  it. When our friend Harry Potter dies and
• 33:51
  goes to King's Cross Station and he meets
• 33:53
  up with the great wizard, Albus Dumbledore. Never
• 33:56
  insult Albus Dumbledore in front of me. But
• 33:58
  he goes to him and he says, is
• 34:00
  this real? Is this all in my head?
• 34:01
  And Albus says, of course, it's all in
• 34:03
  your head. But why shouldn't that make it
• 34:05
  real? And so, like, this idea that consciousness
• 34:08
  is the thing, this idea that we're exploring
• 34:10
  this stuff through our mind, through our feelings,
• 34:12
  it's really an old idea. And we just
• 34:15
  now got perverted to where
• 34:18
  science becomes religion in a lab coat, and
• 34:19
  you're supposed to be convinced that there's nothing,
• 34:22
  there's no there there unless you can view
• 34:24
  it under a microscope. And I think that
• 34:26
  that's kind of unraveling in the face of
• 34:29
  a lot of the change that's going on
• 34:30
  in the world.
• 34:32
  Yeah. Well said.
• 34:34
  So this is getting a bit heady. Let's
• 34:36
  bring it back
• 34:38
  to brownies and ritual murder. I mean, I
• 34:40
  took a note. I'm definitely gonna come back
• 34:42
  to that, but just, really, Crescent
• 34:44
  Lake itself. This is kind of an area
• 34:47
  that is a hotbed for more strange activity
• 34:50
  than just this instance.
• 34:52
  And
• 34:53
  it's funny because I've been in that area.
• 34:55
  A lot of people don't even know the
• 34:57
  continental United States has a rainforest, and I've
• 35:00
  been up to the Ho Rainforest. Really fun,
• 35:02
  cool area to see. Crater Lake, not exactly
• 35:05
  close, but also a serene
• 35:07
  crazy place. And I just love the whole
• 35:09
  area from Crater Lake to the Ho Rainforest,
• 35:11
  and this sits in that area more towards
• 35:14
  the top.
• 35:16
  But, I mean, I've heard that this is
• 35:17
  a Bigfoot hotspot.
• 35:19
  I've heard that, Ryan, you got involved in
• 35:21
  a Facebook group about the paranormal, and the
• 35:24
  stories just kept coming. Talk to us about
• 35:26
  some of the more bizarre things that this
• 35:29
  region seems to be known for. Sure. Everything
• 35:32
  I talk to you about here in this
• 35:33
  next diatribe is gonna be what literally catalyzed
• 35:36
  the friendship between Kutchin and I because I
• 35:39
  was struggling, right? I knew Kiel, I knew
• 35:41
  the window area concept,
• 35:43
  And I knew then through my research
• 35:46
  in the region that the whole rainforest, as
• 35:48
  you mentioned,
• 35:49
  is actually the single highest spot per capita
• 35:51
  of big flood reportings on the planet. Oh,
• 35:54
  shit. And that that, as the crow flies,
• 35:56
  is a good 20 miles from Lake Crescent.
• 35:58
  I knew that we had a paranormal
• 36:01
  thread going on in the Facebook group for
• 36:03
  Port Angeles citizens that I had to sneak
• 36:05
  my way into, thanks to my unknown researcher,
• 36:07
  who I won't put on blast in public.
• 36:09
  But they're very private, and and the they
• 36:11
  were verifying. And so I got in, and
• 36:13
  they were willing to talk about Lake Crescent.
• 36:15
  And there was everything from, you know, folks
• 36:17
  who are of the tribes out there
• 36:20
  sharing, you know, some of their stories about
• 36:22
  what's going on in the lake.
• 36:24
  There are people that are experiencing
• 36:26
  wars,
• 36:27
  the woman in white,
• 36:28
  more traditional ghosts,
• 36:30
  aliens,
• 36:31
  and UFOs, and all
• 36:33
  alien like creatures,
• 36:35
  little people, right? So we get into the
• 36:37
  brownies and stuff. And so all of this
• 36:38
  stuff kind of came flooding at us.
• 36:41
  And
• 36:42
  I guess I was sort of trying to
• 36:44
  say, okay,
• 36:46
  now my brain's broken. So that's where I
• 36:48
  went to the Obi Wan Kenobi with Josh
• 36:50
  and sort of said,
• 36:54
  help me, Obi Wan. You're my only hope.
• 36:56
  I'm not Obi Wan.
• 36:58
  You did a Terrence begin an impersonation
• 37:01
  and explained some things to me. So I
• 37:03
  think I always wanna make you do that.
• 37:04
  But let's go ahead and tell us in
• 37:06
  Terrence's voice where you took that conversation.
• 37:10
  Oh my goodness.
• 37:11
  I don't know if I have an applicable
• 37:12
  Terrence quote for that specifically.
• 37:14
  While you think about it,
• 37:16
  the ritual
• 37:17
  murder component,
• 37:19
  in the satanic panic, there was a retired
• 37:22
  FBI guy named Ted Gunderson who kinda got
• 37:24
  popular for a hot second.
• 37:26
  He's on Geraldo Rivera, you can find the
• 37:28
  episode out there. He makes the claim
• 37:31
  that there will be a
• 37:33
  body pile, a ritual burial ground
• 37:37
  discovered
• 37:38
  in the woods that are again adjacent as
• 37:40
  the crow flies sub 50 miles from Lake
• 37:43
  Crescent,
• 37:44
  and it makes it into the press. There
• 37:45
  was a collection of this stuff. And again,
• 37:48
  I went from brownies and what do we
• 37:50
  do with that? To this satanic panic influenced
• 37:53
  egregore of potential ritual murders that probably didn't
• 37:56
  happen. God forbid, let's hope they didn't. But
• 37:59
  there was all of this stuff that was
• 38:00
  just ripe in this little area. And the
• 38:02
  whole Pacific Northwest is a hotbed for strange
• 38:05
  stuff. But for whatever reason, this little area,
• 38:07
  all the way back to Kenneth Arnold,
• 38:09
  is attracted
• 38:11
  to this stuff. Maybe it is an archetype
• 38:13
  in and of itself. Maybe it is an
• 38:14
  inevitable
• 38:16
  slide into a region having all of this
• 38:18
  lore. But for whatever reason, I can't tell
• 38:20
  you I was smart enough to be able
• 38:22
  to differentiate it and to know what to
• 38:23
  do with it. But it all kind of
• 38:25
  came at me and I had to look
• 38:26
  at different resources to try to contextualize it.
• 38:29
  And there's a lot of things in the
• 38:30
  film that you didn't see. But what you
• 38:32
  did see
• 38:34
  was a great example of how story is
• 38:35
  gonna interface
• 38:36
  in Israel Keyes. So Israel Keyes was a
• 38:39
  serial killer that killed himself in jail after
• 38:41
  being caught. He's known
• 38:43
  from a body count standpoint to I think
• 38:46
  he's somewhere around 7 or 8 bodies that
• 38:48
  are confirmed, but it's rumored that he killed
• 38:50
  just a ton of people. And if you
• 38:52
  look him up, he's a very disturbing guy.
• 38:54
  And I found his interview tapes because he
• 38:57
  had lived out in the area by Lake
• 38:58
  Crescent and apparently at some point admitted to
• 39:02
  putting a body in Lake Crescent. So then
• 39:04
  I went in and looked up his interviews,
• 39:05
  looked up all the transcriptions from the FBI,
• 39:08
  and I found this segment where he was
• 39:10
  talking about Lake Crescent
• 39:12
  and says basically, I'm not quoting him, but
• 39:14
  basically he says that you should have known,
• 39:16
  I thought you would have known that this
• 39:17
  is one of the places I would put
• 39:18
  a body because it's got a history, essentially.
• 39:21
  And as soon as he said it, I'm
• 39:23
  like, he's talking about this story
• 39:25
  because people know this story out there. And
• 39:28
  so then a serial killer goes and he
• 39:30
  admits to putting a body down there, and
• 39:32
  he assumed
• 39:33
  that the body would be in the exact
• 39:36
  same condition as when he put it in,
• 39:39
  which goes back to Hallie,
• 39:41
  and to her being saponified and basically being
• 39:44
  a statue that emerged out of there. So
• 39:46
  he knew the story, I think, and there's
• 39:48
  just all of these different variations on it.
• 39:51
  Some are very disturbing
• 39:53
  and very dark, and then others are a
• 39:54
  bit more whimsical and fun. But there was
• 39:56
  no really great way to parse the data.
• 39:59
  You just had to sit back and take
• 40:01
  it all in and go,
• 40:03
  what context does an audience need to have?
• 40:05
  And, again, that was where I sort of,
• 40:07
  you know, had a lot of outside help.
• 40:10
  Yeah. And I think
• 40:11
  one of the things that
• 40:13
  emerges out of Lady of the Lake, and
• 40:15
  it's part of what I love about watching
• 40:17
  it, you know, rewatching it,
• 40:19
  is that you get about 2 thirds of
• 40:21
  the way through, and you're like, what the
• 40:22
  hell am I watching? Because, you know, it
• 40:24
  does take a turn into this other territory
• 40:26
  that we are not used to seeing in
• 40:29
  ghost media or true crime media, and I
• 40:31
  think that's the discussion that we need to
• 40:32
  be having.
• 40:34
  The fact that some of these manifestations of
• 40:36
  Halley around the lake have
• 40:39
  all the earmarks of what you might call
• 40:41
  urban legends.
• 40:43
  There's a story of how she is signaling
• 40:46
  to drivers to, you know, slow down or
• 40:48
  be aware of an abrupt curve so that
• 40:50
  they don't go off the road. I mean,
• 40:51
  that's classic urban legend stuff. Where I am,
• 40:54
  there's a story of a trucker who went
• 40:56
  off the road on in Monteagle,
• 40:58
  Tennessee and does the exact same thing. Like,
• 41:00
  you'll find this story everywhere.
• 41:02
  But, you know, people still
• 41:04
  report these stories
• 41:06
  outside of that sort of
• 41:08
  matrix of folklorists that talk about these things
• 41:11
  as being recurring themes and motifs. So what
• 41:13
  do you do with the fact that some
• 41:15
  of these sort of broader
• 41:17
  stories seem to use the events of her
• 41:20
  death as sort of a vehicle, a sort
• 41:22
  of a launching point to sort of enter
• 41:23
  our reality. Similar to that,
• 41:25
  you've got these stories of Halle crying alongside
• 41:28
  the lake, which is very evocative of the
• 41:30
  stories from Latin America of La Llorona, who's,
• 41:33
  you know, seen in white weeping alongside the
• 41:35
  lake. As Ryan alluded to, you've got all
• 41:37
  the sort of window area strangeness there from
• 41:40
  Bigfoot to UFOs
• 41:42
  to these stories of little people.
• 41:44
  And
• 41:45
  Claude Lecouteau,
• 41:47
  former Sorbonne medievalist, said that fairies were so
• 41:50
  closely associated with bodies of water that they
• 41:53
  might be considered
• 41:54
  primarily of an aquatic element. And you've got
• 41:56
  stories of sirens luring people out to their
• 41:59
  death Oh, I know that. In bodies of
• 42:00
  water. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Paging doctor
• 42:03
  Knowles.
• 42:04
  You start to view this as
• 42:07
  variations on a theme or as
• 42:09
  attributes of lived experience being plugged into a
• 42:12
  broader story.
• 42:14
  It does paint a picture that we are
• 42:15
  dealing with something that really transcends
• 42:18
  the narratives that we've all grown up with
• 42:19
  and the narratives that we've all sort of
• 42:21
  come to expect to the extent that, you
• 42:23
  know, it's not a household term.
• 42:25
  People talk about the ETH,
• 42:27
  the extraterrestrial hypothesis in regards to UFOs.
• 42:30
  There is a similar stranglehold
• 42:32
  in parapsychology
• 42:33
  regarding ghosts that you could call the DPH,
• 42:35
  you know, the dead people hypothesis.
• 42:38
  And look, I'm very sympathetic to ghosts being
• 42:40
  the dead that obviously plays some sort of
• 42:42
  role in whatever that contact is, but it
• 42:45
  still remains a hypothesis. And before even getting
• 42:48
  into stuff like,
• 42:50
  you know, emotional imprints on the land or
• 42:52
  the stone tape theory, I think we also
• 42:54
  should pay some attention to how these stories
• 42:57
  and myth themes seem to repeat themselves
• 43:00
  and often repeat themselves alongside other things that
• 43:02
  are considered just anomalies. Yeah. I'm with you
• 43:05
  there. And I'm glad you mentioned UFOs because
• 43:08
  I did want to
• 43:10
  kinda jump over to the UFO topic while
• 43:12
  we're still in this first hour so we
• 43:14
  can kinda slide in some current events because
• 43:16
  people are gonna wonder why the hell I'm
• 43:18
  not talking about it. It's because I booked
• 43:19
  my show way in advance, and I wasn't
• 43:21
  expecting weird shit to happen, but I guess
• 43:23
  I should have.
• 43:24
  But there really is a lot of UFO
• 43:27
  stuff going on right now. Obviously,
• 43:29
  some people think the drones over New Jersey
• 43:32
  were more than just drones. And now people
• 43:35
  are saying that they're not just over New
• 43:36
  Jersey, they're over Denmark. They're all over the
• 43:39
  place. People are suddenly
• 43:41
  recording weird stuff in the sky.
• 43:44
  And then the Cybertruck bomber apparently had some
• 43:46
  manifesto
• 43:47
  about the drones using anti gravity propulsion.
• 43:50
  Lou Elizondo released a book not too long
• 43:53
  ago that talks about ATIP and surgeries to
• 43:56
  remove implants where the implants move deeper into
• 43:59
  the body to get away from the surgical
• 44:01
  tools.
• 44:02
  It is hard to keep up with these
• 44:04
  things, the congressional hearings, the new whistle blowers.
• 44:07
  I don't follow it as closely as I
• 44:10
  should even though it is my job to
• 44:11
  be somewhat aware
• 44:13
  because it's not the context in which I'd
• 44:16
  like to think about 40 and UFOs
• 44:19
  paranormal y stuff. It's all just very
• 44:21
  military heavy. But if you look at the
• 44:23
  UFO forums today or the UFO subreddits,
• 44:27
  it's flooded with drone stuff. It's funny because
• 44:31
  the conspiracy
• 44:32
  subreddits are talking about UFOs and the UFO
• 44:34
  subreddits are talking about
• 44:36
  military
• 44:37
  psyop conspiracies.
• 44:39
  And that's a little unusual.
• 44:41
  But
• 44:42
  in the context of all the geopolitical
• 44:44
  tensions, it's just weird that this dead guy
• 44:47
  has this manifesto
• 44:49
  and says, well, these are China's things, and
• 44:51
  we gotta be scared.
• 44:52
  And then he goes on the Sean Ryan
• 44:54
  podcast. I don't have anything bad to say
• 44:56
  about Sean Ryan, but
• 44:58
  the FBI comes out and verifies the manifesto
• 45:01
  as authentic
• 45:02
  before the podcast comes out. It's like when
• 45:05
  does the FBI or the Pentagon ever verify
• 45:08
  anything? They either say nothing or they deny,
• 45:11
  deny, deny. So it stinks to me, but
• 45:14
  it is interesting that we're talking
• 45:16
  to the king himself,
• 45:19
  King Kutchin,
• 45:20
  and
• 45:21
  you gotta have some thoughts about these recent
• 45:24
  events and these stories.
• 45:26
  I'm gonna try to address as many as
• 45:28
  I can. The first thing is that none
• 45:29
  of these stories are new. The moving
• 45:32
  implant under the skin, you can find examples
• 45:34
  of monks writing in their diaries about the
• 45:37
  devil putting a pea sized object in their
• 45:39
  skin that always flees from the touch.
• 45:41
  So these are always old stories that get
• 45:44
  co opted and reused by
• 45:46
  authority figures. Right? So that's point 1.
• 45:50
  On the drones
• 45:52
  writ large,
• 45:54
  it's an amazing time to be interested in
• 45:56
  UFOs and to see this happening. Right? Because
• 46:00
  the phenomenon has always adjusted to expectations. You
• 46:02
  have the steampunk airships around the turn of
• 46:06
  20th century moving into these art nouveau flying
• 46:08
  saucers
• 46:09
  in the mid century into the black triangles
• 46:11
  of the eighties. And then
• 46:13
  come 2017,
• 46:14
  we're all talking about this tic tac, tic
• 46:16
  tac, tic tac, drones. We've been primed to
• 46:18
  view the UFO phenomenon as a drone. And
• 46:20
  I've had some friends who said, Yeah, but
• 46:22
  people aren't really seeing those. And I said,
• 46:23
  Just wait.
• 46:25
  And now in the course of, you know,
• 46:26
  3 short months, that's the way that the
• 46:28
  American public has been conditioned to think of
• 46:31
  UFOs and UAPs as drones to the extent
• 46:34
  that, like, they might as well be synonymous
• 46:36
  in coverage right now. So I think that
• 46:37
  this is one of those watershed moments where
• 46:39
  the UFO, regardless of what the drones actually
• 46:42
  represent, right,
• 46:43
  regardless of what they are, the public, how
• 46:45
  it's changing the minds of people, is to
• 46:47
  think of UFOs as drones. So I think
• 46:48
  it's another example of the phenomenon
• 46:50
  really plucking
• 46:51
  a commonly reported shape out of the zeitgeist
• 46:54
  and applying it to its form and function.
• 46:58
  2nd part of
• 46:59
  that, regardless of what the drones were, I
• 47:01
  do think some people are seeing some genuinely
• 47:03
  anomalous stuff, some stuff that might not even
• 47:05
  be terrestrial.
• 47:06
  Maybe the phenomenon is being attracted by all
• 47:09
  the extra attention in the skies or
• 47:11
  this is how strange our skies always are.
• 47:13
  And it's just now that people are paying
• 47:15
  attention and looking up, you know, looking up
• 47:17
  and seeing things until they're finally realizing how
• 47:19
  strange things can get. They saw the Superman
• 47:22
  trailer.
• 47:23
  Right?
• 47:24
  Yeah. It's a bird, it's a plane, no,
• 47:26
  it's a drone.
• 47:27
  And
• 47:28
  we got a constellation of things going on
• 47:30
  here. We've got some shady terrestrial drones. We've
• 47:33
  got some abject misidentifications
• 47:35
  of very mundane things, and we probably have
• 47:37
  some strangeness up there too.
• 47:40
  I do not know what to make of
• 47:42
  it or the manifesto as it came out.
• 47:46
  I have to admit being attracted to the
• 47:49
  parsimony of 2
• 47:51
  conspiratorial
• 47:52
  flash points coming together,
• 47:54
  as you alluded to with the different subreddits
• 47:56
  sort of cross pollinating in that way.
• 47:58
  I'm trying to remain aware of the fact
• 48:01
  that that flatters my sensibilities and that I
• 48:03
  love seeing how these things are connected. That
• 48:05
  does feel a little bit too parsimonious
• 48:07
  to me. And if it flatters my sensibilities,
• 48:10
  I usually become quite skeptical of it right
• 48:12
  away. So
• 48:14
  Amen. Amen.
• 48:15
  Here's been my biggest problem throughout this whole
• 48:16
  drone flap and I do appreciate
• 48:20
  the coverage of the manifesto because it does
• 48:22
  resituate this.
• 48:24
  Ufologists
• 48:24
  are so obsessed with exo politics that they
• 48:27
  forget about geopolitics,
• 48:28
  which still exist and are still a thing
• 48:31
  and present a more ominous
• 48:33
  threat and concern than any of the exo
• 48:35
  politics stuff. Right?
• 48:37
  So I do appreciate
• 48:39
  the fact that people are talking more about
• 48:42
  geopolitics in the past 24 hours since all
• 48:44
  this came out.
• 48:46
  But at the same time,
• 48:48
  that could be a cover for something as
• 48:49
  well. So I think that the best sort
• 48:51
  of remedy for all this, for me at
• 48:53
  least, and people can take this or leave
• 48:56
  it, is to proceed with open minded interest
• 48:59
  and to, you know, constantly perform a gut
• 49:01
  check and see what they think about it.
• 49:04
  I do think that something about the Las
• 49:06
  Vegas incidents
• 49:08
  don't pass the smell test, but I could
• 49:09
  have told you that on day 2.
• 49:12
  So who knows?
• 49:14
  It's just
• 49:15
  here's your Terrence McKenna quote, Brian. You wanted
• 49:17
  a you wanted a Terence McKenna quote, you
• 49:19
  know, okay.
• 49:20
  It is this idea that, you
• 49:22
  know, we're cascading towards an ever increasing advent
• 49:25
  of novelty that will become so suffocating and
• 49:28
  frequent that the only thing by which we
• 49:31
  recognize our entire
• 49:32
  reality is the ever increasing novelty.
• 49:36
  And he was right. I mean, like, let's
• 49:37
  take a step back and say that, you
• 49:38
  know,
• 49:40
  time wave 0 might not have been spot
• 49:42
  on and the timing might have been funny,
• 49:43
  although a strong case can be made that
• 49:45
  2012 is when things started to sort of
• 49:47
  get strange.
• 49:48
  Yeah. I interviewed a guy whose whole claim
• 49:50
  was that we all died in 2012.
• 49:52
  Yeah. I heard that as well. Yeah.
• 49:54
  But
• 49:55
  the point is, is that the broader point
• 49:57
  that Terrence was trying to make is that
• 49:58
  yes, we are on an asymptotic
• 50:01
  curve towards ever increasing novelty. That seems
• 50:04
  to be apparent to anyone paying attention.
• 50:07
  Yeah. And I just wanna say 2 things.
• 50:09
  Number 1, to Rifan McKenna. In the last
• 50:11
  interview that he gave where he's out in
• 50:13
  Hawaii and going into some of that stuff,
• 50:15
  he talks about how he fully expects us
• 50:18
  to
• 50:19
  be able to transfer consciousness
• 50:21
  from one body to another,
• 50:23
  to travel
• 50:25
  faster than light speed, have all this amazing
• 50:26
  technology while at the same time we're displaying
• 50:29
  unlimited barbarism
• 50:30
  and killing each other and
• 50:32
  doing all of these terrible things, and that
• 50:35
  both of them will be happening at scale.
• 50:37
  And I think that that sort
• 50:39
  of novelty is absolutely the state that we
• 50:42
  live in. I think that there's also
• 50:45
  and I'm not a parapolitical
• 50:46
  person, but
• 50:48
  I do believe that we are sort of
• 50:51
  existing
• 50:52
  in an MK Ultra
• 50:54
  sort of state. Oh, now we're in now
• 50:56
  we're cooking with gas, Ryan. And have been
• 50:59
  for quite some time.
• 51:01
  And so now that that's become the norm,
• 51:04
  I can basically
• 51:05
  talk about the drones this way, just to
• 51:08
  say this is my thought.
• 51:09
  The disclosure,
• 51:11
  which is what's happening, the disclosure
• 51:13
  is a cover up.
• 51:15
  But the cover up
• 51:18
  is
• 51:19
  the disclosure.
• 51:20
  So the fact that they're even engaging with
• 51:22
  the cover up, to me, implies that, you
• 51:24
  know, we're we're getting to the point where
• 51:26
  it's like we're getting softened, you know, to
• 51:28
  be able to, like, experience more
• 51:30
  things
• 51:31
  based on the Brookings Institute. And I I'm
• 51:33
  sure there's a trajectory that makes sense for
• 51:35
  a larger apparatus like the government in that
• 51:37
  way, plus all of the political implications and
• 51:40
  commercial implications that come along with maybe hiding
• 51:42
  some of that technology or whatever has been
• 51:44
  going on.
• 51:45
  But at the end of the day, I
• 51:47
  go back to,
• 51:48
  isn't it amazing to see people
• 51:51
  feel
• 51:52
  enchanted
• 51:53
  by this whole process?
• 51:54
  And if they can avoid the razor wire
• 51:56
  of World War 3 or impending reptilian domination,
• 52:00
  if they can avoid those two things and
• 52:02
  just for a moment suspend disbelief and find
• 52:06
  themselves engaged with this experience of life, right,
• 52:09
  Whatever's piloting these things. I love seeing people
• 52:12
  talking about this and not talking so much
• 52:14
  in the pejorative
• 52:16
  about life for a minute.
• 52:18
  That was really inspiring to me. That's what
• 52:20
  all
• 52:21
  good eschatology
• 52:23
  does. Right? Is it has a re enchanting
• 52:25
  sort of quality to it. It's that old
• 52:27
  question of, like, if you knew today was
• 52:28
  the last day on earth, what would you
• 52:30
  do? And everyone's answer is hugging loved ones,
• 52:33
  having the best meal that they could have,
• 52:35
  going outside and hugging a tree and putting
• 52:38
  their toes in the grass. Like, it's all
• 52:39
  about stuff that we do day to day
• 52:41
  and take for granted. So that's what
• 52:43
  really confronting
• 52:44
  mortality, be it of yourself or of the
• 52:46
  world,
• 52:47
  does. And so, yeah, that is a positive
• 52:49
  side to this.
• 52:51
  Seeing a UFO
• 52:53
  as a beautiful thing,
• 52:54
  that's the component that I think is missing.
• 52:58
  And, you know, we go through cycles like
• 52:59
  this too. Anybody who's into film history can
• 53:03
  easily riff on Star Wars emerging out of
• 53:05
  Dirty Harry. Right? And
• 53:08
  all of the
• 53:09
  fantasy movies coming out of these darker times
• 53:12
  and as a response to them. So I
• 53:14
  really hope personally that we're walking the razor
• 53:17
  edge towards
• 53:18
  the next Harry Potter or something as opposed
• 53:20
  to World War III. But there's definitely a
• 53:22
  really dark sensibility
• 53:24
  to this time period as well. So I
• 53:26
  can see how people are responding to it
• 53:29
  in a negative way.
• 53:30
  But I would also venture out on a
• 53:32
  limb and just say, Stop looking to the
• 53:35
  government to qualify your existence. Stop looking to
• 53:38
  the government
• 53:39
  to justify
• 53:40
  your lived experience
• 53:42
  and stop looking to the government for your
• 53:45
  source of truth, right? We go back to
• 53:47
  how are you feeling, right? In your stomach,
• 53:49
  how does it feel when you saw that
• 53:51
  thing that you saw? In your stomach, how
• 53:53
  does it feel when you hear these people
• 53:54
  talk who are talking? Use that.
• 53:57
  You've had that beaten out of you. So
• 53:58
  go ahead and try to use it now
• 54:00
  and see how that works out because in
• 54:02
  the end, that's gonna be the best barometer
• 54:04
  for truth you have because we are moving
• 54:07
  into that wacky MK Ultra novelty period, and
• 54:10
  you kinda have to assume that you are
• 54:12
  your own best advocate. It's like when you
• 54:14
  go into the hospital, you really are your
• 54:16
  own best advocate. You're kind of in that
• 54:18
  liminal space right now.
• 54:20
  Amen. And not to take us too far
• 54:23
  into conspiracy land, but you said MKL is
• 54:25
  your first, Ryan, so I can say it
• 54:27
  now. But, you know,
• 54:29
  both of the New Year's Day attackers,
• 54:32
  the New Orleans guy and the Cybertruck guy,
• 54:36
  they both spent time at Fort Bragg. And
• 54:39
  Fort Bragg is known for having a psychological
• 54:42
  warfare division.
• 54:44
  It's basically
• 54:45
  the MK Ultra hub. So you have 2
• 54:48
  ex military guys
• 54:50
  who did time in the exact place. I
• 54:52
  mean, if you know the Michael Aquino stuff,
• 54:55
  that all comes out of Fort Bragg too.
• 54:57
  It's like something dark's going on there that
• 54:59
  is a real hub for
• 55:01
  this activity and how it's crossing over into
• 55:03
  UFO
• 55:04
  space. Well and, you know, it occurs to
• 55:06
  me that
• 55:07
  someone doesn't necessarily
• 55:08
  need to go through MK Ultra experiments
• 55:11
  experimentation on you to be in that milieu.
• 55:14
  And, you know, if we do believe, as
• 55:16
  people like Chris Knowles have talked about MK
• 55:19
  Ultra being more about calling down demons than
• 55:21
  anything else,
• 55:23
  you know, it stands to reason that
• 55:25
  something like that could be called down and
• 55:27
  sort of set up shop in a location
• 55:29
  and then have
• 55:31
  an entire array of people to pick from
• 55:33
  regardless of whether or not they were actually
• 55:35
  approached or not. Just the fact that something
• 55:37
  dark might hover around a location seems entirely
• 55:39
  plausible to me. And if you ever read
• 55:41
  like Program to Kill, there is actually
• 55:44
  a paper trail for these sorts of things
• 55:46
  happening.
• 55:48
  To what extent is obviously kind of spurious,
• 55:50
  but there is definitely a paper trail for
• 55:52
  some of these things type of like, you
• 55:54
  know, people becoming
• 55:55
  having tendencies towards these sorts of violent outbursts
• 55:58
  after participating in certain types of programs or
• 56:00
  being in certain places, there's definitely correlations that
• 56:03
  you can draw. Like, that's common sense. Everybody
• 56:05
  knows it. Can you attribute
• 56:07
  some sort of government program to these things?
• 56:10
  That's spurious. It's total conjecture. But how do
• 56:13
  you feel
• 56:14
  when you see it? Where is your gut
• 56:17
  when you see this stuff, right? And, like,
• 56:19
  for me,
• 56:20
  what I think
• 56:21
  with these activities is that we are just
• 56:24
  headed into the cuckoo land. And
• 56:27
  if you've ever taken psychedelic medicine and had
• 56:30
  to get through it, and if you feel
• 56:32
  like you're going to die and you just
• 56:33
  have to lean into the death, like, here's
• 56:35
  where you are.
• 56:36
  You're in that space where this is going
• 56:38
  to get weird. I personally think it's gonna
• 56:40
  intensify.
• 56:41
  To the point of these demons and the
• 56:43
  idea of this demon haunted world, not to
• 56:46
  make too Sagan was against it, right? But,
• 56:48
  like, this idea of the demons,
• 56:51
  I kind of have had this wonder in
• 56:53
  me about the UFO phenomenon as it sits
• 56:57
  because Josh, you made a comment, we were
• 56:58
  on a show the other day, about
• 57:00
  the potential for the Tic Tac or the
• 57:02
  drone even becoming the next physical
• 57:05
  visual manifestation
• 57:06
  of the UFO phenomenon in a long series
• 57:09
  of them, right, from airships to drones.
• 57:12
  So you're talking about that and I was
• 57:13
  thinking about if I were a hungry non
• 57:17
  human intelligence sitting on the other side of
• 57:19
  the veil that actually needed
• 57:21
  belief to exist, right?
• 57:24
  I would be looking at the world and
• 57:25
  going, It's so secular.
• 57:27
  How do I get people to believe in
• 57:29
  anything again? And I think that shaking the
• 57:32
  tree proverbially here could be almost a ploy
• 57:36
  from a hungry
• 57:37
  psychic entity that does want us to speak
• 57:40
  to your point on that. Is there like
• 57:42
  a precedent
• 57:43
  for
• 57:44
  alignment between
• 57:45
  the changing modes of how we experience, let's
• 57:48
  say, the UFO
• 57:50
  and also
• 57:51
  folklore or traditional
• 57:53
  religion around entities that are looking for belief
• 57:56
  to manifest?
• 57:58
  I'm sure you could draw some rough correlations
• 58:01
  between
• 58:01
  the eighties
• 58:03
  ascension of the new age and sort of
• 58:05
  how that was an inflection point when things
• 58:07
  changed. And
• 58:09
  obviously,
• 58:10
  world wars tend to have an outsized impact
• 58:12
  upon spirituality too. So that might be tied
• 58:15
  up in the whole Kenneth Arnold era, the
• 58:17
  flying saucer era.
• 58:19
  I think that
• 58:21
  if not
• 58:22
  orchestrated
• 58:24
  by some sort of outsized meta intelligence that
• 58:27
  this time period is just scheduled.
• 58:30
  I find it really fascinating to me that
• 58:32
  we're going through all this and that, look,
• 58:35
  I've been historically very critical of disclosure, but
• 58:38
  I think we can all say that it
• 58:40
  seems as if some sort of gains have
• 58:42
  been made if in no other way than
• 58:44
  getting people on the street to say, yeah.
• 58:45
  There is something funny about this stuff. That's
• 58:48
  a sea change. Right?
• 58:50
  Yeah. It's sad how little How little it
• 58:52
  takes. We get. Yeah. I mean, the crumbs,
• 58:55
  you know, we're
• 58:56
  really just eating crumbs here, but That that
• 58:58
  is a sea change. And I think that
• 59:00
  the success of that movement for whatever you
• 59:02
  wanna call it, and I think it still
• 59:04
  falls short of what it could accomplish or
• 59:05
  what they seek to accomplish, but still the
• 59:07
  relative success of that movement,
• 59:09
  coupled with the lack of
• 59:11
  faith and authority structures, coupled with
• 59:14
  bizarre geopolitical tensions,
• 59:16
  I think it all speaks to the time
• 59:17
  that this is trickster time. Like I think
• 59:19
  that these things are not unrelated at all.
• 59:22
  That's going in the title. Well, I I
• 59:23
  just think that it's this ties back onto
• 59:26
  some stuff that I first learned about in
• 59:27
  some of your conversations with Gordon about Fort's
• 59:29
  dominance.
• 59:30
  It does seem like as if there is
• 59:32
  a prescribed time where it is trickster time
• 59:34
  now. And
• 59:35
  the level of not only acceptance, but fluency
• 59:38
  with which I see people discussing
• 59:41
  the UFO topic in particular is quite shocking.
• 59:43
  I can't tell you how many conversations I've
• 59:45
  had with average people on the street
• 59:47
  where, you know, they ask me what I'm
• 59:49
  into and I mentioned the UFO thing. And
• 59:51
  I'm preparing my spiel to say that I
• 59:53
  don't think it's ET. Right? And before I
• 59:55
  can even say that, the person will say,
• 59:57
  I think they're interdimensional. And I'm like, what
• 59:59
  in the John Keel did you just say?
• 1:00:01
  Like like, how has this discussion moved such
• 1:00:04
  that people will sort of offer that? Regardless
• 1:00:06
  whether or not it's accurate or not. Like,
• 1:00:08
  that's a bizarre thing.
• 1:00:10
  You know, another example that I've been using
• 1:00:11
  lately is I have you know, I used
• 1:00:13
  to not talk to people at my church
• 1:00:15
  about what I I'm into because, you know,
• 1:00:17
  it opened up a whole can of worms
• 1:00:19
  and the obvious conversations that have to come
• 1:00:21
  out of that. And now I'm at church
• 1:00:23
  functions and people are coming up to me
• 1:00:24
  asking me about Skinwalker Ranch and Chris Bledsoe.
• 1:00:27
  And it's like,
• 1:00:28
  what happened?
• 1:00:29
  And I think it's
• 1:00:31
  tied into that ever increasing novelty, probably tied
• 1:00:34
  into the 2012 shift, probably tied into
• 1:00:37
  this trickster era. And I think these things
• 1:00:40
  whatever gains disclosure has made, I don't know
• 1:00:42
  if any of them would have been made
• 1:00:43
  in any other time period. I think that
• 1:00:45
  this is a top down sort of permission
• 1:00:47
  to do this from forces we can't comprehend.
• 1:00:51
  The coyote is on the prowl.
• 1:00:54
  Being aware, right? Like being situationally aware is
• 1:00:57
  so important.
• 1:00:58
  Amen. Amen. Well said.
• 1:01:01
  Okay. Well, I think this was really great.
• 1:01:03
  We gotta find some place to land.
• 1:01:06
  I will be honest. When I put my
• 1:01:08
  producer hat on and I was, like, getting
• 1:01:10
  ready for this, as you know, we rescheduled
• 1:01:11
  because I was like, I need more time
• 1:01:13
  to figure this thing out because I was
• 1:01:15
  worried how are we gonna talk about this
• 1:01:16
  film
• 1:01:17
  that is as long as the interview that
• 1:01:19
  I need to do
• 1:01:20
  and not give away the whole goddamn thing.
• 1:01:22
  And, you know, now this is one of
• 1:01:24
  my favorite ones in a while, so it
• 1:01:26
  all worked out. And
• 1:01:28
  let's do the promo thing one more time.
• 1:01:30
  Tell them where they can see
• 1:01:32
  Lady of the lake, tell them about the
• 1:01:34
  upcoming projects mentioned. Anything else you got going
• 1:01:36
  on? I know, Josh, you wrote a novel
• 1:01:38
  too. If you haven't done enough to make
• 1:01:40
  me look lazy,
• 1:01:41
  hit them with all the good stuff. Ryan,
• 1:01:43
  I'll let you start with the lady of
• 1:01:44
  the lake details and VOD and all that.
• 1:01:47
  Yeah. So the Lady of the Lake is
• 1:01:48
  streaming on all of the platforms, but we
• 1:01:51
  prefer you go to Amazon or Itunes if
• 1:01:52
  you can because they give us the most
• 1:01:54
  coin. And movies ain't cheap. And like I
• 1:01:56
  said, we're self financed. So if you like
• 1:01:57
  it weird and you like it true to
• 1:01:59
  your individual
• 1:02:00
  self, then keep sponsoring weird people You're doing
• 1:02:02
  that.
• 1:02:03
  And then online,
• 1:02:05
  you can follow Creepy Kingdom to see the
• 1:02:07
  menagerie of stuff that company does.
• 1:02:10
  That's the best way. I'm not that interesting
• 1:02:12
  on social media. You are the co creator
• 1:02:14
  of that company, right, Ryan? Co owner, yeah.
• 1:02:17
  Co owner. Yeah. Cool. I,
• 1:02:19
  am Joshua Cutchen. And
• 1:02:22
  still Joshua Cutchen, I think.
• 1:02:24
  And since we've spoken last, I have a
• 1:02:26
  novel that's out called Them Old Ways Never
• 1:02:28
  Died.
• 1:02:29
  And I have another nonfiction
• 1:02:32
  book pending in the spring, hopefully, if everything
• 1:02:34
  goes well, called 4th Wall Phantoms. It's
• 1:02:37
  all about fictional incursions entering our reality and
• 1:02:40
  what that possibly says about the UFO question
• 1:02:42
  and the spirit question and the cryptozoological
• 1:02:45
  question.
• 1:02:46
  I am currently
• 1:02:49
  available for your viewing pleasure
• 1:02:51
  in the, documentary, Kosmosis
• 1:02:54
  that can be found through YouTube, Apple Plus,
• 1:02:56
  and Amazon Prime.
• 1:02:58
  We are still in preproduction on a documentary
• 1:03:00
  together, Ryan and I, on the UFO topic.
• 1:03:03
  So look for some news to continue to
• 1:03:05
  come out for that in 2025.
• 1:03:08
  Probably some other TV stuff coming up later
• 1:03:10
  this year that I'll be making an announcement
• 1:03:11
  on. But to find out when and if
• 1:03:14
  that is happening, you can head on over
• 1:03:16
  to joshuacutchen.com,
• 1:03:18
  joshuacutchin.com,
• 1:03:22
  and you can track me down on Facebook
• 1:03:24
  and Instagram if you are so inclined.
• 1:03:27
  Love it. It's like you've done that before,
• 1:03:29
  but you still miss something. So I'll swoop
• 1:03:31
  in with an assist
• 1:03:33
  and say that you even have an NDE
• 1:03:35
  course that people can take. I do have
• 1:03:37
  an NDE course, so thank you. You're welcome.
• 1:03:40
  Part of the reason that it slipped my
• 1:03:41
  mind is because I actually offered it this
• 1:03:43
  past spring, but it's available through the Cosmos
• 1:03:46
  Institute.
• 1:03:47
  They were so pleased with the result that
• 1:03:49
  they have actually made it an evergreen course
• 1:03:50
  and all the classes were recorded. So if
• 1:03:52
  you're interested in that, you can go over
• 1:03:54
  to cosmosinstitute.org.
• 1:03:56
  That's cosmos with a k.
• 1:03:58
  And, yeah, you can see what you missed
• 1:04:00
  out on the spring, seeing all of my
• 1:04:03
  pontificating
• 1:04:04
  on the NDE. Thank you for reminding me
• 1:04:06
  of that. Of course. It's what I do.
• 1:04:08
  I I got too many things going on.
• 1:04:09
  What can I say? I know. I know.
• 1:04:12
  Man, makes me feel like I should be
• 1:04:13
  doing so much more. But anyway, this was
• 1:04:16
  really great. I super enjoyed talking to you
• 1:04:19
  guys. We were all over the map, and
• 1:04:21
  I think that we covered, really important ground.
• 1:04:23
  So I appreciate it, and I look forward
• 1:04:26
  to seeing the other projects you do. Take
• 1:04:28
  care. Thank you.
• 1:04:32
  Alright. And boom goes the dynamite. Joshua Cutchen,
• 1:04:36
  always a treat. Ryan Grolick, a nice addition
• 1:04:39
  to the conversation.
• 1:04:41
  Lady of the Lake, an intriguing decades old
• 1:04:44
  true crime mystery that was only unraveled because
• 1:04:47
  of the sightings in the years since.
• 1:04:50
  I enjoyed the film, but I really enjoyed
• 1:04:52
  the parts of the conversation that got deeper
• 1:04:54
  into their thoughts on broader topics, like the
• 1:04:57
  big picture ideas regarding 40 and High Strangeness
• 1:05:01
  and also
• 1:05:02
  their thoughts about government disclosure
• 1:05:05
  and the Cybertruck
• 1:05:06
  bomber manifesto
• 1:05:08
  situation.
• 1:05:09
  Somebody on the higher side chat subreddit actually
• 1:05:12
  started a thread about the Sean Ryan show
• 1:05:15
  and their thoughts on that being a genuine
• 1:05:18
  situation.
• 1:05:20
  And it made me feel a little bit
• 1:05:21
  better because I said I kinda doubted it
• 1:05:23
  in this episode and I just thought, man,
• 1:05:26
  I'm probably bringing on a lot of unneeded
• 1:05:29
  heat because that audience is so much bigger
• 1:05:31
  than my own.
• 1:05:33
  Apparently, I'm not alone in thinking something was
• 1:05:35
  fishy with that, and that's good to know.
• 1:05:38
  So I thought that's when it got extra
• 1:05:41
  fun, and I try to keep from tainting
• 1:05:44
  Josh with my conspiracy
• 1:05:46
  lunacy, but the streams are crossing more and
• 1:05:49
  more these days. And I'm glad he was
• 1:05:50
  just willing to indulge me a bit on
• 1:05:52
  it.
• 1:05:53
  As is usually the case, the second hour
• 1:05:55
  really shouldn't be missed especially if you liked
• 1:05:58
  where we were at the halfway point because
• 1:06:01
  we got into even crazier stuff from there.
• 1:06:04
  The nature of true disclosure,
• 1:06:06
  rituals,
• 1:06:07
  intention, and collective
• 1:06:09
  consciousness,
• 1:06:10
  retrocausality,
• 1:06:11
  and the future of humanity,
• 1:06:13
  collapsing world views, new understandings,
• 1:06:15
  the human experience in the UFO narrative, shamanism
• 1:06:19
  and stewardship,
• 1:06:20
  the role of trauma in all this,
• 1:06:22
  Gertrudeff and the importance of death awareness, and
• 1:06:25
  living with purpose and active engagement.
• 1:06:29
  No shortage of good points and little insights.
• 1:06:32
  Sign up right in the show notes or
• 1:06:34
  at thehiresidechats.com.
• 1:06:36
  And THC can keep on being one of
• 1:06:38
  the last remaining independent and listener supported shows
• 1:06:41
  out there
• 1:06:43
  in a very ad heavy world.
• 1:06:45
  But there is a lot going on out
• 1:06:47
  there. Lots of recent events and shenanigans
• 1:06:50
  that need deconstruction,
• 1:06:52
  and I should've known January would be jam
• 1:06:55
  packed with all kinds of chaos leading into
• 1:06:57
  Trump's inauguration.
• 1:06:59
  But I booked a few guests on very
• 1:07:01
  specific
• 1:07:02
  topics
• 1:07:03
  and I'm super happy with most of them.
• 1:07:05
  I mean, ancient mysteries and plasma are great,
• 1:07:07
  but they aren't really the kind of guests
• 1:07:09
  who are gonna comment on current events. And
• 1:07:12
  the shit that happened on New Year's Day
• 1:07:14
  and these fires.
• 1:07:17
  There is so much to talk about and
• 1:07:19
  I'm gonna get us
• 1:07:21
  a few good guests to break down a
• 1:07:23
  lot of it because there's no shortage of
• 1:07:25
  things already
• 1:07:27
  just 12 days into a new year
• 1:07:30
  to talk about.
• 1:07:31
  But I'm probably,
• 1:07:33
  like usual, not gonna be the fastest
• 1:07:36
  to
• 1:07:37
  break all the news.
• 1:07:38
  But we will be thorough. I can promise
• 1:07:40
  you that.
• 1:07:41
  But I'll try to be more conscious of
• 1:07:44
  that and make sure that I always have
• 1:07:46
  some
• 1:07:47
  current events, guests
• 1:07:49
  peppered in
• 1:07:51
  so that we can be more up to
• 1:07:53
  date on the news, but it just didn't
• 1:07:55
  happen
• 1:07:56
  in this first
• 1:07:58
  couple of weeks of the new year.
• 1:08:00
  But these fires in LA, man,
• 1:08:03
  there are fires every year but not usually
• 1:08:05
  in January.
• 1:08:06
  January was usually the wet season.
• 1:08:09
  People know it doesn't snow there, but we
• 1:08:10
  would get lots of misty rainy days throughout
• 1:08:13
  the winters.
• 1:08:15
  And I don't know where that went. Now
• 1:08:16
  it's apocalyptic
• 1:08:17
  fire covering over a 100 acres.
• 1:08:20
  And, obviously, there's gonna be many
• 1:08:22
  micro stories in all of that, but I
• 1:08:24
  did hear 2 that were particularly
• 1:08:26
  sad.
• 1:08:28
  1st, the Theosophical
• 1:08:29
  Society in LA burned down. This was part
• 1:08:32
  of their statement.
• 1:08:34
  This was the world's largest archive of Theosophical
• 1:08:37
  materials, including a library with 40,000
• 1:08:40
  titles, the entire archive of the history of
• 1:08:43
  the Theosophical
• 1:08:44
  Society,
• 1:08:46
  as well as about 10,000
• 1:08:47
  unpublished
• 1:08:48
  letters pertaining to Blavatsky, the Mahatmas,
• 1:08:52
  W. Q. Judge, and several other people I'm
• 1:08:55
  unfamiliar with,
• 1:08:57
  as well as membership records since 18/75,
• 1:09:00
  art objects, and countless other irreplaceable
• 1:09:03
  materials.
• 1:09:05
  The archives also contain works of Baum,
• 1:09:08
  Gichol,
• 1:09:09
  donations from the King of Siam, including rare
• 1:09:12
  Buddhist scriptures, and so on.
• 1:09:16
  Really sad to hear that. Lots of history
• 1:09:19
  lost. We don't like that.
• 1:09:21
  And it's a shame they didn't have a
• 1:09:23
  digital archive of this stuff.
• 1:09:25
  Not really a new idea, but hindsight is
• 1:09:28
  2020.
• 1:09:29
  Obviously, I greatly prefer a library of
• 1:09:33
  original materials, but a digitized archive is a
• 1:09:36
  nice
• 1:09:37
  plan b for situations like this.
• 1:09:40
  And then the second sad story I heard
• 1:09:42
  is that Maja, our last guest, has lost
• 1:09:45
  her home and everything in it.
• 1:09:47
  There's a GoFundMe you can find on my
• 1:09:50
  Twitter, but just another sad story out of
• 1:09:54
  what is 1,000.
• 1:09:55
  Again,
• 1:09:56
  we will make time to cover all that
• 1:09:59
  in detail soon with a great return guest,
• 1:10:02
  but the hits just keep on coming in
• 1:10:04
  2025.
• 1:10:06
  Either way, I got a lot out of
• 1:10:07
  this interview.
• 1:10:09
  It is hard to make
• 1:10:11
  40 and high strangeness
• 1:10:13
  shows fresh,
• 1:10:15
  but there is a good way to do
• 1:10:17
  it and a deeper way to do it.
• 1:10:19
  And I think with Josh Cutchen,
• 1:10:21
  you're always gonna get there.
• 1:10:23
  I know I said that I didn't find
• 1:10:25
  the whole feelings connection aspect to be the
• 1:10:28
  most exciting conclusion.
• 1:10:30
  I'm just being honest about that, but I
• 1:10:32
  do want the true conclusion.
• 1:10:34
  I wanna understand the phenomenon as it is,
• 1:10:37
  not as I wish it were because it's
• 1:10:39
  more exciting to think it's disembodied
• 1:10:42
  separate beings.
• 1:10:44
  The more I learn, the more it does
• 1:10:45
  seem that these things are deeply personal and
• 1:10:48
  maybe even emerge from within an individual.
• 1:10:51
  There might even be a set of circumstances
• 1:10:54
  that all have to line up, and only
• 1:10:56
  one of them is the emotional state of
• 1:10:58
  the individual. It's hard to say.
• 1:11:00
  But I like to think that we had
• 1:11:02
  this conversation at a high level, especially as
• 1:11:05
  it went on.
• 1:11:07
  With the lady of the lake situation in
• 1:11:09
  this instance in particular,
• 1:11:11
  it's got a very 6th sense vibe. Right?
• 1:11:15
  She won't move on until the story is
• 1:11:16
  told. The unfinished business is complete.
• 1:11:19
  But her body was recovered and the sightings
• 1:11:22
  remain.
• 1:11:23
  I can't remember the exact number now, but
• 1:11:25
  there was what? Dozens of more people that
• 1:11:27
  were thought to have died in the lake?
• 1:11:29
  Maybe there's more than one lady.
• 1:11:31
  Certainly an interesting story, and I know true
• 1:11:34
  crime isn't our thing usually, but I'll take
• 1:11:37
  any reason I can to talk to the
• 1:11:38
  Kutchmeister.
• 1:11:40
  And I considered
• 1:11:42
  the story to be a bit more interesting
• 1:11:44
  because of the archetypal
• 1:11:45
  overlap.
• 1:11:47
  Even in previous episodes, I know Josh has
• 1:11:49
  told a couple of Lady of the Lake
• 1:11:51
  stories.
• 1:11:52
  I guess it's just one of those grooves,
• 1:11:54
  you know.
• 1:11:55
  But as for the last show, yes, with
• 1:11:57
  Maja, it was a pretty mixed bag according
• 1:12:00
  to Plus members.
• 1:12:02
  She was kind enough to jump into the
• 1:12:04
  comments herself and navigate the good, bad, and
• 1:12:07
  the ugly there. But the rating came in
• 1:12:09
  at a 4.2.
• 1:12:11
  Not the greatest. I don't worry if we're
• 1:12:13
  still above 4,
• 1:12:15
  but it's clear people had strong feelings. Those
• 1:12:17
  who liked it really liked it and those
• 1:12:19
  who didn't were not shy about saying so.
• 1:12:23
  Maybe it was a little bit broad, but
• 1:12:25
  she's someone who has had this connection to
• 1:12:27
  the field from a young age, going out
• 1:12:30
  of body because of fevers, knowing that the
• 1:12:33
  material world was only half the story.
• 1:12:37
  That set her up for a really interesting
• 1:12:40
  life and a deeper connection
• 1:12:42
  to the field, and we explored
• 1:12:44
  different aspects of that.
• 1:12:46
  And sensing that entanglement with spirits,
• 1:12:50
  I mean, you know, you heard it, but
• 1:12:51
  I was kinda surprised
• 1:12:54
  that it was a 4.2.
• 1:12:56
  Regardless of how you feel about our conversation,
• 1:12:59
  to have such a devastating thing happen so
• 1:13:01
  soon after,
• 1:13:04
  Man, thoughts and prayers. Right, guys?
• 1:13:07
  I guess there's not a lot more to
• 1:13:08
  say. I realize it is a bit of
• 1:13:10
  a slow start for us in this new
• 1:13:12
  year,
• 1:13:13
  but my editor has 2 shows in the
• 1:13:16
  pipeline right now. He's moving as quickly as
• 1:13:18
  he can. I'm recording again tomorrow.
• 1:13:21
  I mentioned this, but
• 1:13:23
  I was sick. My 2 kids were sick.
• 1:13:25
  My wife was sick. And none of it
• 1:13:27
  overlapped
• 1:13:28
  exactly perfectly. So
• 1:13:31
  the last half of December wasn't great. So
• 1:13:33
  we're still just trying to get back up
• 1:13:35
  on our feet in the Carlwood household.
• 1:13:38
  And with the production chain of this show,
• 1:13:41
  when I'm doing a really work heavy couple
• 1:13:44
  of weeks, it takes a while for you
• 1:13:45
  to notice as it does take a couple
• 1:13:48
  of weeks for you to notice that I
• 1:13:50
  lightened my load.
• 1:13:52
  But wheels are in motion, and it's gonna
• 1:13:54
  be a more action packed second half of
• 1:13:56
  the month, it looks like. But let's do
• 1:13:58
  the meetup calendar thing, as we tend to
• 1:14:00
  do.
• 1:14:01
  I'm recording this on January 12th. January 11th
• 1:14:04
  was our big day with, like, 5 or
• 1:14:06
  6 events. I hope they went well.
• 1:14:08
  January 13th, we got one in Miami at
• 1:14:11
  Lincoln's Beard Brewery.
• 1:14:13
  January 25th, Allentown, Pennsylvania, McCall Collective Brewery.
• 1:14:18
  February 1st, Conway, Washington, Conway's Pub.
• 1:14:22
  The locals might've liked this episode.
• 1:14:24
  February 3rd, Auckland, New Zealand, Gale Brath's Ale
• 1:14:27
  House. February 8th,
• 1:14:29
  Baringsville, Pennsylvania.
• 1:14:31
  McCall Collective Taphouse.
• 1:14:33
  Two places
• 1:14:34
  called McCall's in Pennsylvania,
• 1:14:38
  but in 2 different cities. I don't know
• 1:14:39
  about that.
• 1:14:41
  Locals can probably sort it out. But go
• 1:14:43
  to the meetup calendar, higher side meetups.com,
• 1:14:45
  for more information on any of these events
• 1:14:48
  or to make your own.
• 1:14:50
  And Gordon and I will be having our
• 1:14:52
  event here in Tampa
• 1:14:54
  on March 8th.
• 1:14:56
  We are still narrowing down the venue, but
• 1:14:58
  that is the date.
• 1:15:00
  I think we're gonna do what we did
• 1:15:02
  in Austin, which is
• 1:15:04
  not charge for the event at all. No
• 1:15:06
  ticket price.
• 1:15:08
  But we keep it to the inner circle
• 1:15:10
  of paid members as a thank you.
• 1:15:12
  I feel like if you keep me and
• 1:15:15
  Gordon going with a subscription to what we
• 1:15:17
  do,
• 1:15:19
  then this can be considered an added bonus
• 1:15:21
  because you really do keep our lives running.
• 1:15:25
  So we're gonna be doing a lot of
• 1:15:26
  hanging out and mingling as we do, but
• 1:15:29
  then we will also do a live interview
• 1:15:31
  kind of thing.
• 1:15:32
  Recorded, of course, 4 plus members who can't
• 1:15:35
  make it.
• 1:15:36
  And we got a pretty good topic lined
• 1:15:38
  up. I'm pretty excited about it. It will
• 1:15:40
  be good to see him again. It's been
• 1:15:43
  a while.
• 1:15:44
  In fact, maybe I haven't seen him since
• 1:15:46
  the Austin event. I know I certainly haven't
• 1:15:49
  gone anywhere.
• 1:15:50
  But that is, the show. That's about all
• 1:15:53
  she wrote. Thanks for listening. Check out the
• 1:15:55
  film if you think it's your thang.
• 1:15:58
  You will find more from Ryan at Creepy
• 1:16:01
  Kingdom, and of course, Josh is as active
• 1:16:04
  as ever, and his books are
• 1:16:06
  top shelf.
• 1:16:07
  Big thanks to both of them for taking
• 1:16:09
  the time.
• 1:16:10
  Thanks to you for listening. Try to keep
• 1:16:12
  your head on straight out there.
• 1:16:14
  That's it for me. I've done my part.
• 1:16:16
  Your move, trickster beans, disclosure, disseminators,
• 1:16:20
  and lake ladies.
• 1:16:21
  Your fucking
• 1:16:23
  move.
• 1:16:25
  Roads wind around the redwoods,
• 1:16:29
  circling the water's edge.
• 1:16:32
  Many
• 1:16:34
  mysteries to see,
• 1:16:36
  at least the visitors
• 1:16:38
  allege.
• 1:16:40
  Elemental
• 1:16:42
  sprites
• 1:16:43
  and hairy
• 1:16:44
  beasts might manifest,
• 1:16:47
  But one legend's most persistent
• 1:16:51
  standing
• 1:16:52
  out above the rest,
• 1:16:54
  the lady of the lake.
• 1:16:58
  She sometimes
• 1:17:01
  appears
• 1:17:02
  a ghostly woman
• 1:17:04
  in white
• 1:17:06
  orphaned and tears.
• 1:17:09
  An unexpected
• 1:17:11
  death,
• 1:17:13
  a secret still unknown.
• 1:17:17
  Alone. Break the case back open. Send
• 1:17:21
  her home.
• 1:17:41
  What's the connection
• 1:17:44
  between
• 1:17:44
  violent
• 1:17:45
  tragedy
• 1:17:48
  and the strange reported
• 1:17:51
  sightings of imprinted
• 1:17:53
  energy?
• 1:17:56
  Maybe it's
• 1:17:58
  tied up in how you
• 1:18:01
  feel.
• 1:18:02
  The more you ask,
• 1:18:04
  the more you wonder
• 1:18:06
  what is even real.
• 1:18:09
  The lady of the lake,
• 1:18:13
  she sometimes
• 1:18:14
  appears
• 1:18:17
  a ghostly
• 1:18:18
  woman
• 1:18:19
  in white, often in tears.
• 1:18:36
  Her
• 1:18:39
  home.