Latest / Better Together / Do Happy Work: A New Approach to Leadership with Olivier Egli
Transcript
- Kelly Sundsvold: Welcome to the Better Together podcast where we share real conversations with entrepreneurs who are reshaping what business and life can look like when you lead with intention. I'm Kelly Sunsvold co-hosting with my partner and business and in life, Sean Sunsvold. Today we're joined by Olivier Igley, founder of Be Like an Apple Tree, creator of the Do Happy Work Movement and has just published a book authored by his father called The Lola Principle. Olivier isn't your typical business coach. His work challenges high performing leaders to stop performing altogether, to shed the masks, unlearn the noise, and return to the truest version of themselves. With a unique blend of business strategy, psychology, and spiritual depth, Olivier has carved out a powerful space for entrepreneurs, creatives, and leaders who just want more than a success. They want alignment. His signature metaphor, an apple tree bearing apples because Sorry, an apple tree bearing apples. Hold on, let me start that sentence over again. With a unique blend of business strategy, psychology, and spiritual depth, Olivier has carved out a powerful space for entrepreneurs, creatives, and leaders who want more than just success, they want alignment. His signature metaphor in apple tree bearing apples, because it's their nature, reminds us that authentic work isn't just something we perform, it's something we become. So welcome to the podcast. Olivier: Thank you so much for having me. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, of course. start at the root. Not pun, not intended. I'm just kidding. You know, when I first met you, thought this is such an interesting. It's an interesting business name. So let's start at the beginning. What is the be like an apple tree and what's inspired you to create that? Olivier: Hahaha. Yeah, so so many stories, it was ⁓ by necessity. It was inspired by ⁓ not just a choice, but a choice that I was forced to make. ⁓ a high performing ⁓ in the advertising space. ⁓ was mostly in ⁓ client facing advertising, campaigning, doing that for like upwards of ⁓ years in all kinds of positions, but My heart was never really in it, but it was something that I successfully managed. I managed the illusion that it was cool, that it was a good job, that I was doing well, you know, I had all the signs and all that. So at some point it didn't work anymore. At some point I just became physically and psychologically ill and it forced me to look in another direction. That's kind of like where... signs fell into my hands and that just fell into my laps. And one of them is this analogy of the apple tree, which was brought to my attention by my father. He was actually the one who coined the term, but completely unintentionally. And that's when it dawned on me that I was somehow ignoring something that was true about me. And was not applying it. you know, my waking hours, what was I doing? So this is kind of like what's kickstarted the journey of building a business that was built on this analogy, but built from there in like inspiring people to do the same because I know that it's a reality for the majority of the working population, especially when we get into like meets to upper level management or entrepreneurs who own and run businesses. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I think there's, for those of us who've come from corporate America. On some level, I think we've all gone through that of like that, you know, we go, we do it, we put a smile on our face, but you know, there's this nudge, right? There's this pull to something different. you know, and I'm curious for you, you know, as you ⁓ through this and, and this was, was there any one single moment that you decided this is when I need to make, ⁓ but were like, I need to make this shift now. ⁓ Was that defining moment or was it just this ongoing ⁓ kind pull where you finally got to the point of like, okay, I'm going to do this and I'm going to stop holding myself back. Olivier: So this is a very good and very valid point, and it's actually one that I address. I built an entire program around that. It's ⁓ first step in my three steps of acknowledgement of true purpose that we hold. It's liberation. Most the time, we're buried in a truth that it's not ours. So for the longest time, it was a sentiment. It was a sentiment. It's that ⁓ old... conflict between the right and the left side of the brain. The heart wants something and the brain kind of rejects it because it doesn't make sense. So I knew for the longest time emotionally that things are not okay. I hated getting up. I hated going to those meetings. I hated, I was very good. That's the problem. I was actually, for the most part, I was really good at what I was doing. I was bringing home the bacon. That's the problem. It was working. Kelly Sundsvold: Thank Olivier: So it was working at a rational level, but why did I feel broken, unfulfilled? And what happens to a person when they have this kind of conflict in them? They turn to things to heal or to kind of like paint over that. ⁓ drugs are obvious things. know, within a certain, within range that's expected, especially in advertising, I did my fair share. Kelly Sundsvold: Thank Olivier: I'm not really very attracted to, but a lot of toxic thinking and a lot of aggressive behavior and all that. So you could say there were always these hints, but because it was working, also pulled myself back together until, as I said, I became ⁓ ill. And that to me is a big thing because I am... Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: I'm like a, I'm not an athlete, but I'm very like, I love sports, I love working out, I love being able to use my, you know, my physical body to its full extent. But suddenly that was taken away from me, and not in a way that's fully somatic, it was psychosomatic, it was like nothing was wrong with my body, but the use of my body. I couldn't get up, I was tired, I was depleted, and I... Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: I being alive. That's probably the worst part of it. know, when hate just being that's the clear warning signal. And I know that for a lot of people, a lot of people can probably sympathize with that, but a lot of people think I'm exaggerating or they're like, ⁓ that's not my case. Just wait. I mean, just wait. ⁓ I of that impression. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Olivier: It was very clear to me that people who have burnouts are exaggerating, they're, know, they're sissies, they're just kind of like, they're dramatizing their situation. Be thankful, you're making all this money. What's wrong? What could be wrong? know now for a fact that ⁓ you are, ⁓ I may say, perverting your nature, you always pay a price. And whatever money you make and whatever comes your way, that's not enough to pay that price. There's always a part a dividend that you give away that separates from you that you're not getting back unless you make a harsh choice. And you know, maybe to fully answer that question then, I'm someone who's very much into classic Greek mythology and storytelling. So the analogy, the true analogy of the hero's journey Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. Olivier: is really striking in exemplifying and describing that we have to go through those motions, that this is the path of human learning. We get tricked ⁓ we have this light heart that just wants to be powerful and off the world, but at some point ⁓ breaks. And when the real adventure knocks at the door. That's when the calling for the self comes. We are conditioned not to listen. We are conditioned to turn away and remain off the world. The problem is just the older you get, if you remain stuck in that, you lose flexibility, you become more rigid, and also at some point, you know, the flame goes out and then the call for adventure becomes nearly impossible. I would say was just lucky. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. Olivier: the door was just kind of closing on me, but I realized our systems, our educational systems, in business, are not set up to deal with that. It's more of the same. You're gonna keep doing what you do and if you're unhappy, just do it at a higher pace or at a performing pace. And then you just retire, ⁓ just out, which is completely contrarian to... Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: anything natural or anything that mythology and ancestral wisdom teaches us. So I'm about, I wanna reconcile those two sides because I know that that's what saved me, if you will, to stay on my hero's journey. Long answer, I know. Kelly Sundsvold: Thank Yeah, no, this was such a good answer. ⁓ I remember we got off our inter-call and I was like, I cannot wait till our conversation because there was just so much that really resonate and I think will resonate with our audience too that burnout that we go through really going through the motions of our job. ⁓ you really like doing what you're doing? You something called the do happy work. movement and that's really a core of what you do. What does that mean to you and how is it really different? You kind of touched on it in your answer but how does it how does it differ than traditional ideas of passion and purpose? Olivier: Yeah, so I am a language guy. I love linguistics in my research, in my psychological research. Language holds a very, very point. And so the words that we use, know, purpose, meaning, success and all that, I have come to realize that ⁓ ⁓ a context of language that's very toxic. So we understand these things within a toxic... context which I'm trying to move people away from, but happy work, that's the center. And there is a central misunderstanding that separates two kinds of people. The people who hope to find happiness in work and the people who bring their happiness into their work. And so for the first half of my career, I will say now, Kelly Sundsvold: Hmm. Olivier: I was trying to find happiness in what I do. And this is what we call love what you do. So it's kind of like this weird thing where we tell ourselves that we should be happy, you know, that we have a job and we should be thankful that, know, yeah, there's nothing wrong with gratitude for what is, but only if it is a reflection of who you are and not an attempt at finding something in the job that is not you. Now the Do Happy Work movement, which has a podcast, which has ⁓ my client work and everything, is about you must understand how you are the source of your happiness, not a job. A job can never be a source of happiness. outside of you, anything, spouse, a partner, a friend, the world, job is a mirror ⁓ of who are. So if you're a miserable person who's completely disconnected from who you are, your truth, and you now go look for a job that will make you happy, it's a broken person looking in a broken world for something to make them whole. That will never work, and it has never worked. And I have so much proof, myself included, but now the people that I work with on the daily, but when you're whole, and you show up as a whole person and you say like, deserve to bring my happiness into work. Now you're doing your happy work. Now, rather than saying love what you do, you do what you love. And that is a difference in the understanding of passion. Passion is a Latin word that actually means pain. It doesn't mean that, ⁓ there's something out there that I really like. I'm gonna do that. It's about like, what am I willing to burn for? What am I willing to go through great lengths for? What am I willing to endure great pain Because it's ⁓ me. It's in me to be that light. And then you find a way to translate that inner gift, through outer gifts, into a position of power where you can offer something. And that is the translation of the inner light to become an outer light for the world. And I actually just finished a piece for the subscribers to my newsletter this morning that talks about legacy. Because I run into a lot of people who tell me, ⁓ you know, I want my legacy to be. And it's such an egotistical term because our take on legacy is we want to leave. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: something behind because we know we're mortal. We worked hard for this. So we want to extend our control beyond the confines of life, which is completely, I mean, we hallucinate when we say that because the only legacy we have is our fruit that we give away. If we don't show up every day and we give away our light and make that our legacy, knowing that it's out there now illuminating the world, if we don't do that, Kelly Sundsvold: Thank Olivier: What we fall for this idea that somehow we have to control the world and we have to make our possessions off the world and still control them beyond the grave, which is crazy. But talk to 10 people and they will nod at the idea. Yeah, work hard, amass power and then pass it on. We know what happens with legacies. They get forgotten, they get abused, they get broken apart. Shawn Sundsvold: you Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Olivier: passed into the wrong hands, and there you go. And so that means that all your work was for nothing. But if you do happy work, it means every day you show up and you share your light, that light is never wasted on the world. It's now doing its thing. Every apple that an apple tree releases becomes part of the ecosystem forever. So we can go quietly and happily knowing that we did our thing. We gave ourselves away. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. It's a very unique approach to the word legacy. I ⁓ if you don't mind, think I'd actually like to borrow that. Because ⁓ it's true. And I how you're taking what is, you're giving it a now. You're giving it a reason now of why it's important. Olivier: Well, you know, Sean, you borrow that, that means that you carry on my legacy. So there you go. Which is, we have proof of concept. We have proof of concept right here, right now. That's perfect. That's exactly how it should be. I'm not possessive of my light. That's the problem that we are possessive. We're possessive because of, you know, our mental conditioning. We think that our work is about amassing things. To quote the great late Hunter S. Thompson, Shawn Sundsvold: There you go. There you go. Yes. Kelly Sundsvold: Yes. Yes. Shawn Sundsvold: and Olivier: We should slide sideways into our grave, completely used up and worn out because we gave everything away. It's weird that we wanna die in these cosmetically perfect preserved bodies these fortunes in the bank, which means that we hoarded everything, all the light. And because of that, the world gets ⁓ and darker. Whereas if I give myself away, there should be almost nothing to bury because I lived so. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Olivier: fully and you know, like that's happy work. it takes a lot. I mean, look at me from where I come from and where I'm now, this is a diametrically opposite path than the one that I used to walk on. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's and let's talk about that a little bit because one of the things you mentioned earlier in the conversation was that, you know, when you were for somebody else. Right. You, didn't really feel like yourself. You didn't feel like you had the ability to sort of explore or discover yourself. Right. And now you it's much more of a, you almost feel liberated from that, right? You've you're able to do the self discovery and the self learning and you're able to, you know, be more, do you be more expressed who you are? Right. you know, and, even in your, you know, your coaching aspect, you talk about liberation, self discovery and expression. Why those three pillars, you know, and how do they play out in the work you do? Olivier: Right. Shawn Sundsvold: not only for yourself, but for your clients. Olivier: Yeah, it's a very good point. And he actually just reflects my own experience and how I grew out of that situation. You know, most people, when they go to a coach or a guide or whatever, what they want are applicable, executionable things. They want a method, they want a script, they want 10 steps too. That is the problem. We want these things because we have no patience to grow truthfully and naturally. We want to see ⁓ accomplishments and the results before we're willing to actually understand, well, what do I have? Who is this body that I'm filling with my light? What has been bestowed on me? No, we just wanna go and see the result of our work. The problem is that we came into this plane of existence as these perfect, wonderful, accomplished that curious, playful, ⁓ open-hearted, with compassion and empathy, but void of experience. Because experience to me, that's the great key that unlocks potential. So that means that we were born as perfectly, ⁓ like fulfilled beings. The problem is that just before we were able to tap into it, we became a function of a as a society, of a state that has systems in place. And this system in order to function has to embrace a certain mental operating system. And there are two ways in which we can function. And I think it's the only, it's the extent of our free will is do I exist as a peaceful being that is here to shed my light? Or do I exist as a being that is trapped in matter and it has to somehow accomplish a life worth living. Those are the two options we have. And of course our parents, when they say, I want you to have the best life, I want you to be successful, ⁓ that's it. We have now been pushed down that second path. The path of light and peace, that's bullshit. That's You need to be able to feed yourself, right? We get... are presented with all these fearful narratives that make us seriously afraid to exist. We're now, rather than being excited to go out there and play and be curious and open and connective, we're careful. We're suspicious. We're worried. And now it's, of course, all of that gets cemented by the common narrative of like, what is education? What are friends for? What is a relationship for, what does success mean? All these things of which I haven't identified over the last eight years. I haven't identified more than 500 triggers we continuously impose ⁓ ourselves that keep us in that, on that path. The path of performance, of winning, of triumph, of amassment, of taking. When we look into nature, we see the opposite. we look, we don't see any evidence that that's true. That the teaching, the conditioning that we receive, that there is any natural foundation to it. And that is a problem. We're trapped. And therefore we need a form of liberation. A liberation that takes us back to this initial moment, some call it ignorance. But I say that ignorance is a beautiful thing because ignorance means that you're actually not naive in that sense, but you're not knowing of the hurtful ways of the world. You're free of that. You're just imbued with peace. But here's the deciding factor. You're not a newborn anymore. You have experiences. So now the circle comes, you know, we come full circle at the age of 35, 40, 45. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: We've made a lot of traumatic experiences. have experienced a lot of things in our lives. We've seen things we like that we don't like. We've discovered interests. We can use those now when we're liberated to actually discover, hey, how can I take my light, the things that I know that are true about myself, and push them through our trauma, push them through the keyhole of our experiences so they become actually ⁓ to other people. That's the third step. So you go from liberating yourself from this imposed trauma, and all the people would not even call it trauma, but we're all traumatized. All of us who had to go through school or a schooling that somehow dimmed their light, we're traumatized. That's trauma. a wound that has been inflicted upon our intuition. We have to remove that, but we have to fully embrace now what's underneath. When we remove all that limiting beliefs, we realize, first off, there's a curiosity in us that's unique, in each one of us. Each one of us has a specific curiosity, a flame that cannot be still, something that cannot be silenced. All of us. And that hides behind all the schooling because curiosity is kind of like, yeah, okay, cool. Go be curious after school or like on the weekend, okay? Go be curious. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: And then we have talents. Each one of us, we know we have talents. And it's a statistic truth that like 18 or 19 people are actually using their talents in a raw, unadulterated in their work. But on top of that, we also have character and persona, which means we are imbued with a character that wants ⁓ compassion their lives. There's something true about us in our way we behave and speak. that is tainted by the world and has become less loving, when you remove that layer, when you liberate yourself, the compassionate self appears again. Now imagine you bring compassion, curiosity, raw talent into ⁓ context of unconditional love and peace, and now you push it through your experiences into the world, you become unstoppable because people now relate to you. They You're real, this person has charisma, this person is magnetic, this person has no agenda, this person just wants to shine. But it's behind all these layers. You cannot go and learn how to be an entrepreneur if you're not liberated. It will never happen. All these people that came into my business seminars who were like, I don't need to know who I am, I know who I am, I just need to know how can I better my business. How do I have to change my branding? Am I marketing? How can I adapt my strategy? like, all of that is a reflection of you. If you're held captive by hurtful conditioning, then your branding and your product and your value and your teams and your leadership and everything will be a reflection of that hurt. And I don't wanna get political, but usually, in a leader, the way a leader leads is always a reflection of the level of Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: liberation or captivity they hold in them. If they have daddy issues, you know, because they never learned power of a nurturing parent that actually helps them be who they are and not in the image of the parent, well, they will forward that as a leader, be it in politics, ⁓ it in business. We have ⁓ nine of 10 businesses, probably the number is higher. that is led by people who are broken. And all they want is more money. And they think that's the gateway to salvation. It's not. It's destruction. It's slowly evolving destruction. We feel like we're moving forward because the numbers are growing, but we're going nowhere. Growing numbers in nature means nothing. Otherwise the trees would be a million miles tall. A tree knows where to grow, when to grow, how tall to grow, when to stop, what to do. That's intuition that is masked behind liberation. That's the truth in like, ⁓ I want to know myself. I want to know myself means I want to be free to see who I am. But freedom always proceeds, always. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, that's really good. That's really good insight. of shifting a little bit and talking about you as a founder ⁓ your company. What of challenges have you faced that you've learned or something you've learned that's really surprised you? Olivier: Well, I that when ⁓ you really abundant minded as a founder and you start to really trust yourself because liberated and you ask questions, you always get the answer. So ⁓ I ⁓ to the very beginning, I was fearful of course, because I ⁓ left high jobs and good titles for nothing. Kelly Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Olivier: zero, like we're talking zero. And so of course the instinctive behavior of the human brain is to go in full overdrive mode and go into like fight or flight. But as I actually learn about myself and apply these natural principles that I can see everywhere and trust became kind of like the underlying vibration of being an entrepreneur, I could actually ask myself a question about how to lead, how to build, what to do, and within hours I would have an answer. Within hours. And that answer would not be coming from a person I have to pay or a book I have to read. I would just know. So this is why I believe in entrepreneurship. This is a that I coined because Entrepreneurs too often are off the world. They look in the world for answers. But an entrepreneur like myself is able to source all these answers from within. Should I engage in that deal? Should I hire that person? Should I really work for them? Are these the right clients for me? Am I the right guide for them? Should I build ⁓ seminar center? Should I spend that money on that? Is this... the right branding or is this the branding that the world wants me to have? Is this the right message? Does that sound like me or does that sound like something that's going to sell? Do I want to be an eight figure business? Does that even resonate truly with me or is that an ego thing? We have this resource in us as founders, as entrepreneurs that we don't tap into precisely because we're not liberated. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Olivier: And in closing to that question, I will say that life is not supposed to be comfortable and life is not meant to be without pain. Life is meant to be an exhilarating experience full of ups and downs and the downs are as amazing and important as the ups. So as an entrepreneur, especially as a founder who starts with nothing, who completely pivots and shifts, you're gonna have a lot of darkness and you're gonna have a lot of downs. And these are momentum. These are the night and the winter. It's dark seasons are trying to give you momentum. They're trying to teach you. Everything is trying to teach you. But when you're not liberated, you will take it as you will take it as a sign that you're failing. You will take it as a sign that it's not working. You don't have to push through with the fervor of like one of those hustlers. You have to be gentle. You have to be kind and loving. Shawn Sundsvold: you Olivier: You have to take the wave that rolls towards you and say like, yeah, I need you right now. I don't know why, but let's do it. Let's bring it. And let's become the wave. Become the loss, become the pain, become the illness, become the headache, become the fear. That has made me so strong and so cemented in my pathway that literally anything could happen. I will still wake up tomorrow and do this because that's why I'm here. That's why. And that's the degree of clarity and fervor that I wanna see in so many more people because I know that's the only thing that's gonna heal the economy. It's literally the only thing that will take care of our money issues, financial pressure, mental health issues, is that we need more businesses, there are spokespeople. of nature and light. And I don't mean this in a who, crafty sense. This is science. I'm talking about science, psychology, and knowledge from business administration. If invite conflict, you become a voice of conflict. If you invite peace, you become a voice of peace. Your choice. Every morning, are faced with that choice. What are you gonna do? ⁓ Are you gonna claim responsibility for it? You sell bullshit to your clients, you're a voice of conflict, you spread conflict, and in these people conflict will fester. That's your responsibility, that's your life. You spread peace, you spread good products that actually take care of a human need, you spread peace, this peace is forwarded in those families, in those communities, and they make the world a little brighter every day. It's that simple. Business is It's the one on one of energy, of economics, of laws. easy. Flow and conflict. Flow and resistance. Nothing else. But the issue is, of course, we like to be victims. We like to say like, ⁓ well, you know, I'm just a victim of the market, of the economy, you know, there's not much I can do. And that's the bullshit. That is precisely, that's the sad part. You're not born to be a slave. You're born because you have something to contribute, your happy work. And there's no pulling out from it unless you want to. But then don't complain. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah. Olivier: I mean, hindsight is 20-20, right? Had you asked me 10 years ago, it would have sounded completely different, but yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, I appreciate you so much sharing ⁓ your wisdom and your insight. ⁓ think it's really counterculture. And that something that ⁓ kind drew me during our intro call that we had. And I really took that and remembered you stuck out in my I have a lot of intro calls and you really stuck out. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: So tell us a little bit about how people can find you and also the exciting news that you just brought up prior to this interview that you have released. Olivier: Yeah, so more than 30 years ago, my father, we're Swiss, we're from Switzerland. He wrote this book in 1994, was published, The Lola Principle. And it was one of the first books that brought the idea of unconditional love into economics ⁓ and management circles, which he got ostracized at first. ⁓ The nineties were a good time for that, especially if you wanted to be taken serious. But over time it became the book in Switzerland and in Germany and France and of central Europe and has spread and found a huge audience since there because yeah, it is extremely ⁓ to read. It breaks down the conflict and flow in life and in the decision making into three fundamental simple steps that ⁓ draws from physics ⁓ from economy. And it's the principle that love Letting go and action equals reaction are the three mental concepts that if you apply them, you start to flow in your life and the decision making becomes easier and goals come closer to you because they actually become part of your present existence rather than a distant future. And of course it's had a massive impact on me. I was only like 14 at the time when the book came out, but it has. brought something out in me, as I said, experiences shaped the way we show up. And it is to me still the foundation of a lot of things that I do. And I wish for a lot more people to see this. And my wife and I actually brought this book just now into the US. So this is a complete re-edition. It has been reworked, re-translated, repackaged. It was not really translated into proper English for 30 years. mostly all other languages, the American market has not been served. Now it's available, now you can buy it wherever you buy your books or through us. And yeah, that's super exciting because that's legacy, of course, that's a light, my father's light that I am honored to ⁓ preserve and to pass on and make accessible to a completely new market, if you will. me. My do happy work, my wisdom, I share it all the time on my podcast, on the do happy work podcast. I have a newsletter that's been around for a couple years that are called the do happy work thought nugget that people can subscribe. You can find all that information on LinkedIn under my LinkedIn account. My website is still in the making. I'm a little bit lazy with that. So I apologize. And I am also in the process of publishing my own book that's been six years in the making very soon. yeah, that's, yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Great. And I will plug your ⁓ LinkedIn down below too, as well. Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. Olivier: Yes, please. In this day and age, this is kind of like the hub. Shawn Sundsvold: Definitely. Well, Olivia, this was a fantastic conversation. could definitely keep just hitting you with question after question because I'm such a fan of this of ⁓ people to realize that. can be their own person, right? And they can, they can come out from all those old thought processes and how much it changes ⁓ life. So I ⁓ thank you for today's conversation and found it very inspiring. And ⁓ thank you for your time and being here today. Olivier: Thank you so much. Thank you that you found me and that you persisted and that we made this happen. This is great and I hope some people will hear this and they will choose peace in abundance when they wake up tomorrow instead of conflict and scarcity that will already be enough. Shawn Sundsvold: Definitely, definitely. Thanks so much for being here.