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Cheap Shots · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to another cheap edition of the Pittsburgh Sports Memories podcast.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: I'm your uh co-host Steve Wirt and as usual I'm joined by I'm Tim Hannon.
0:13
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not cheap shotting Tim Hannon right now, I I promise.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: We're we're you know if I could I would, but no, I'll I'll try to refrain.
0:21
SPEAKER_04: You only do that when I'm not present.
0:24
SPEAKER_04: Or on the internet.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there you go.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Physical cheap shots, though, not not so much anymore.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: So, like this episode's all gonna be about what I would consider cheap shots, and I guess, you know, like a lot of things, it's in the eye of your observer or eye of the beholder, you know, much like beauty, cheap shots are in the eye of the beholder.
1:01
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, physicality is a part of pretty much all sports.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: I mean, except for like maybe basketball, baseball, too, anymore.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: But um, when does that cross the line from, oh my goodness, we're just playing good old fashioned hard playing to, oh my goodness, you've now gone into cheap shot territory?
1:22
SPEAKER_01: I would define that as you're making a play that's not within the rules of the game, or you're not trying to do something that's going to get you the ball or score a goal or you know, prevent a play runs from scoring.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: You're just doing intent to injure.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why cheap shots are very subjective, is because determining someone's intent, I'm not inside your head, I can only watch what you're doing.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: So, and I think also something else that's I've noticed is if a person gets injured, if a player gets injured, it seems to carry a bigger penalty than if a player doesn't get injured, and it depends on the player.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, now that's just life, you know, it depends on who does it to whom.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and also I think this is increased, whereas back in the 70s, it was just, you know, you or before that, you didn't have like high definition video and super slow-mo.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: You didn't see this, it wasn't as obvious, it was harder to detect.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: What do you think, Tim?
2:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think you're spot on with intent being the keyword there because a lot of times things happen.
2:32
SPEAKER_04: A lot of times it's we were we were I was going full speed and I couldn't stop myself.
2:37
SPEAKER_04: And I was trying to make a play, and he he went, he ducked his head, and right, so it really is all about intent.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: And I and obviously as fans were biased, you know, when we see like our favorite player get hit and you know get hurt, you're like, oh my goodness, that should be a pellet, especially in hockey, it seems to go that way.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: But football's getting that way too.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: And baseball was never I don't really have any basketball ones on here because I we only have like pit basketball, and I don't really remember any super, you know, cheap shots.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: So well, without further ado, and uh as for this, we're gonna rate these on a scale from uh Lady Bing to Vontez Burfick.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: And if you're not familiar who Lady Bing is, she was a um she was married to somebody that like the was it the whoever's in charge of Canada was I think it was somebody in charge of Canada, and she in hockey she would award every year the uh most what did they say, sportsman-like player.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: So normally that's a guy that doesn't go in the penalty box, doesn't hit guys from behind, doesn't hit people with their elbow or slash them.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a little bit, and of course Fontez Berfeck, if you don't know who he is, uh he was a linebacker from the Cincinnati Bengals, and then later the Raiders, who was just I don't think he ever saw a dirty hit he didn't like, and he eventually pretty much got kicked out of the league because of it.
4:05
SPEAKER_01: He wouldn't adjust his play.
4:06
SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
4:08
SPEAKER_04: Marie Evelyn Bing, by the way.
4:10
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Who was she married to?
4:12
SPEAKER_01: She was married to like somebody.
4:14
SPEAKER_04: Lord Bing, the 12th Governor General of Canada, whatever that means.
4:18
SPEAKER_01: So maybe he was pre-prime minister days or something.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
4:22
SPEAKER_04: I don't know what they do up there.
4:23
SPEAKER_04: I don't I didn't even think they really had an organized system.
4:26
SPEAKER_04: So kudos to them for having some people in power, I guess.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: You're not not familiar with Justin Trudeau or just just some good-natured teasing, that's all.
4:37
SPEAKER_04: We love you, King.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, the first stuff is a pretty obvious one.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, Lynn Swan, he was uh clothesline by the Raiders.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: And um we do have some like more audio on it.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's kind of like uh the announcers, and uh this was a game, it actually happened a couple times, and the one we're gonna show is the one from the opening day, was that 1976, Tim?
5:03
SPEAKER_01: I think it was nice.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it actually happened in the championship game the year before they had actually picked on, and it was mainly a guy.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Jack Tatum hit him pretty hard, but there's a guy named George Atkinson, who really was the chief culprit.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: And um, we'll go down and uh we'll see what we can hear some audio on this one.
5:26
SPEAKER_02: Let's see if we can take a look and see how Lynn Swan got hurt.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: I'm telling you, they're picking on Lynn.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: And I don't think you're supposed to do that.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
5:34
SPEAKER_02: I think that's Atkinson's in another no-no and give him a karate chop across the back of the neck.
5:38
SPEAKER_02: You mean you're not supposed to take a guy's head off?
5:40
SPEAKER_02: I think that's a no-no.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't think he's supposed to do it.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: I really do.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: Was that uh, what's his name?
5:46
SPEAKER_01: The old Dallas Cowboys quarterback?
5:48
SPEAKER_01: Was that Don Meredith?
5:49
SPEAKER_04: Dandy Dawn, yeah.
5:50
SPEAKER_04: That was Dandy Dawn.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: So what an if you didn't hear karate chop to the back of the neck, pretty much describes it accurately.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Like Lynn Swan's just running in the middle of the field.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: There's no pass thrown to him, he's not gonna make a block.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: He's I think it was a pass to Franco, and like he's 20 yards away from the play, and Jordan Atkins just literally runs up behind him and hits him in the back of the head.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: Um after this game, like Chuck Knoll called the Raiders a criminal element, and um, you know, the it was really bad.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was this the year we we did we cover this year in another podcast?
6:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, was this the Steelers drama season, or was that another season?
6:32
SPEAKER_04: That was so this was the year that they um they had all those injuries, they made it to the AFC Championship game and lost to the Raiders.
6:40
SPEAKER_04: And then the next the next offseason is when the lawsuit happened over the comment that Ty Noel made after this game.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the day after the game, Noel rose before a luncheon pro a luncheon press conference in Pittsburgh and spoke coldly of a criminal element in the NFL.
7:00
SPEAKER_01: He said that players like Atkinson should be kicked out of the league.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Um Pete Rossell, who was the current commissioner and actually kind of like the found he was the founding commissioner of the NFL, um, did fine Atkinson fifteen hundred dollars after watching a tape of the play involving uh after watching a tape of this play.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: Um Pete Rossell fired off a letter to Atkinson and said, In 16 years in this office, I do not recall a more flagrant foul than your clubbing the back of Swan's head totally away from the play.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Our sport obviously involves intense physical contact, but requires of all players discipline and control and remaining within the rules.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Every player deserves projection from the kind of unnecessary reference roughness that could end his career.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the only reason we know this, and it's not like buried in like some NFL, because it should have it like really this is an internal NFL memo.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: Do you know why this was why it went public?
8:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was the lawsuit.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay, it was because Al Davis sued.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: Was it Al yeah, it was Al Davis or was it one of the Raiders?
8:09
SPEAKER_01: I think it was one of the Raiders suited.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: It was Atkinson, yeah.
8:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but it was like, I mean, Davis was orchestrating the whole thing.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: This never would have come to light, and they kind of looked really bad, you know, because of this.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: So but they didn't take kindly to uh being called a criminal element.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's rare, like Chuck Knoll, like we said, like this and the Jerry Glanville uh thing, like it that's probably like as controversial as Chuck Knowle ever got, quite honestly.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and the Raiders, the Raiders at that lawsuit, they argued that Mel Bunt, he he um was like spiked Cliff Branch into the ground in the same game.
8:50
SPEAKER_04: And so they were arguing, well, their players do the same thing.
8:54
SPEAKER_04: So is it really, you know, it's it's totally unfair for him to single out Atkinson when his players are doing the same kind of stuff.
9:02
SPEAKER_04: And then Noel did did a sort of a poor job of defending Mel Blunt.
9:06
SPEAKER_04: He kind of said, Well, yeah, he Mel Blunt shouldn't have done that either, and that ticked off Mel Blunt.
9:11
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was a whole mess.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if Mel Blunt got fined for the Cliff Branch thing, but he he didn't.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this was this was very like if you think the NFL Well, they didn't even have the video of it, like he had to go to NBC Pete Rosell to get so like this is before like they were like even now and internet and all that stuff, yeah.
9:32
SPEAKER_01: It was even before like the 80s where they would go back and look at the film and be like, okay, you're getting a fine.
9:38
SPEAKER_01: That that started in the 80s, right?
9:39
SPEAKER_01: With like Chuck Cecil, he played for the arts.
9:42
SPEAKER_01: Remember, he would like jump off his feet into people, yeah, like people like that.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: So I gave this one the full Berfect because uh it definitely there's no reason to do this besides intent to injure, there's no play being made.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: This guy's not it's not even debatable, really.
10:01
SPEAKER_04: You do wonder if Atkinson doesn't get fined if Chuck Noah doesn't make us think about it, because at the time the Stewart's and one they were the two-time defending Super Bowl champions, they were kind of in that position where the NFL, shiruta the NFL, just like it is 50 years later, it's very reactive organization.
10:21
SPEAKER_04: Oh no, something could something could hurt our image, so we better react to it instead of you know getting in front of it like we should.
10:27
SPEAKER_04: And and this was I think it was just like the the the the best team in football, the team everybody knows is making us think about this.
10:35
SPEAKER_04: Chuck Knowle, who didn't make us, like you said, didn't make us think about anything.
10:39
SPEAKER_04: And I just that was the kind of the basis of the lawsuit, is that it was Chuck Knowle defamed him, and that's why Rosell got involved.
10:46
SPEAKER_04: Whereas today the league would just take that up immediately.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I guess things have changed for the better in that consideration, so uh moving to hockey, we're gonna have like a pair of hits by because I think these kind of go together, and I I kind of ranked them separately, but they're two separate hits, and they're both involving Sidney Crosby.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think the first one kind of leads to the second one, even though they're by different people on different teams.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: It definitely is part of the same injury.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: And the first one is Sidney Crosby in the winter classic.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember the winter classic at Heinz Field?
11:26
SPEAKER_01: Do you remember Heinz Field?
11:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Acresure Stadium, but uh yes, they had a they played an outdoor hockey game at uh Acrochure Stadium for everybody that doesn't remember 2011.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: All right, so nevertheless, um the Penguins are playing in a winter classic because it's good ratings and it's against a Vetskin.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: It's a Vetskin Crosby, and enter some schmuck named Devin David Steckl, who who cares about David Steckle?
11:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, nobody much except for Sidney Crosby, and uh here we'll play the audio of this hit.
11:58
SPEAKER_09: Well, this last minute, Sidney Crosby fell a couple times, but watch Crosby there.
12:03
SPEAKER_09: He gets blindsided.
12:04
SPEAKER_09: I believe that was David Steckless that was going up the ice, trying to draw in the play, jump into the play, and there you see Crosby getting some attention.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, so what happened here was Crosby's in the in the capital zone, and he's just literally he doesn't even have the puck.
12:22
SPEAKER_01: He's nowhere near the puck.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: And as far as I know, you can't hit people without the puck, or at least having touched the puck.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: You can't just go around hitting people.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's what David Steckle does.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: He's just skating up the ice.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: He is no he actually goes out of his way.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe not completely out of his way, but as he goes by, he literally sticks his shoulder out and hits Crosby in the head as he's not looking because the puck is like going up the ice, and it literally spins Crosby in the air, and that kind of starts like Sidney Crosby's whole concussion thing.
12:58
SPEAKER_01: And I don't I think he left he left that game, but I think that was definitely a perfect hit because there's no play on the puck being made, and it it was definitely an intent to injure.
13:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that was that was dirty.
13:13
SPEAKER_03: I I absolutely think that was dirty.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: Because there was no play, there's no puck, there's no not he's not in front of the net, he's not doing anything like to score or you know, it's just it's not preventing anything because and it's not even like a whoops, oh my goodness, I just messed up.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: That that that was intentional, and I don't think anything was ever done to David Steckle about that.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: I think he totally got away with it.
13:38
SPEAKER_04: No, I'll I'll get on my soapbox a little bit later about that, but I'll let you go through all these hockey ones first because that's very typical of the National Hockey League.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, and so now later there was another hit from a guy named David Kredjek in Boston, and that that one Crosby did end up missing 60 games, and I think it was the following year, but I I think those those started to add up.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Right.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: So here's the one by Krajik, and I have a little bit of a different opinion on this one.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: We'll play the audio.
14:11
SPEAKER_06: Crosby wins the face off back to Brooks orb, but David Craig knocks it down at the line, fends off the Crosby hit.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: Now it it doesn't sound like much and it doesn't look like much, but he got hit and like that's a whoops.
14:26
SPEAKER_01: Like the guy Krajak kind of lifts his elbow up.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: He but Kregick has the puck and he's against the boards, and Crosby's going in to check him and get the puck.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: So this is a hockey play being made, and Crosby literally, to my in my opinion, knocks himself out as he goes in to get the puck.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: But it's a hockey play, hockey's a rough sport.
14:47
SPEAKER_01: This is what happens.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: This I classified as a Lady Bing hit because I don't think there was anything unsportsmanlike about that, even though this was much worse in as far as Crosby's injury, he ended up missing 60 games because of this.
15:02
SPEAKER_01: This hit.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And it's just, you know, it so once again, I think that goes back to if you judge a hit by, oh, this guy was injured or not, then I don't think you're you're going to come up with a fair assessment of what actually happened in that play.
15:17
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a good take.
15:19
SPEAKER_04: It it's not it's really not, I don't think that was a dirty hit.
15:22
SPEAKER_04: That was a bang bang play along the boards.
15:24
SPEAKER_04: The guy had the puck.
15:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
15:26
SPEAKER_04: So I mean it's not that that's so different than like way away from the play.
15:31
SPEAKER_04: Um and and like you said, it's it's it caused damage, but would it have caused that damage had it not been for the steggle hit the year before?
15:40
SPEAKER_04: Because that's really what started that whole mess with his with his concussions and with his uh neck.
15:47
SPEAKER_04: And he really missed the better part of two seasons there in his prime, which really stunk.
15:51
SPEAKER_04: But I agree.
15:52
SPEAKER_04: I I think that this to me the steggle hit was dirty and it kicked off the whole thing.
15:58
SPEAKER_04: The crazy thing was just, you know, unfortunate.
16:03
SPEAKER_01: So continuing with hitting people in the head for no reason, this is this is a Tim edition.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: So um Matt Cook on Ryan McDonough for the Rangers.
16:14
SPEAKER_01: Um Matt Cook is Matt Cook, he's not quite a goon.
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Like I would classify there's like guys that are goons, like Marty McSorley, um, who was the other guy?
16:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh Bob Probert.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: Bob Probert, yeah.
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:28
SPEAKER_04: Uh guys that would fight.
16:30
SPEAKER_04: Matt Cook wasn't a fighter per se.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: He was just he was a physical player that didn't know how to like not hit people dirtily.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: And this is this is definitely um, we'll play the let's play the audio on this.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: Let's see this from the opposite side.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: That is nasty.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: That's a flying outball.
16:50
SPEAKER_09: He's gonna guarantee it.
16:52
SPEAKER_09: He's gonna set some game for that one.
16:54
SPEAKER_09: He had one thing in his mind, and that was to separate the helmet from the head of Ryan McDonough.
17:00
SPEAKER_09: That was a kick shot by Matt Cook.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just to describe, um, Ryan McDonough is on like the center of the ice along the boards, and Matt Cook literally skates from like, I don't know, downtown Manhattan with his elbow out to like hit him in the like it it's pretty blatant that that was an intent to injure.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: At least he kind of had the puck before I think he like shoveled the puck away and then he hit him.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: So at least there was some sort of hockey play going on, and I guess that's what differentiated Matt Cook a little bit from the other guy, but that's a dangerous play.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: And you you can't that's you can call that anyway roughing, boarding, elbowing, charging.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Like he had more than five steps.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: You can't have more than five steps going into the guy on the boards, at least the guy's back wasn't to him, and you hit him in the head.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, that there he ended up getting what 17 games and the playoffs, which that was a major league penalty at the time.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: But once again, I think Matt Cook's reputation had kind of preceded him at that point.
18:09
SPEAKER_01: He had had a lot of other run-ins with the uh NHL uh safety, what is it they call it, player safety office.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: And um, I forget who was running.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: Was it was somebody a joke?
18:21
SPEAKER_01: It was like Chris Pronger or some goon was running the player safety office.
18:24
SPEAKER_04: I think it was I think it was Brandon, I think it might have been Brendan Shanahan, who was not not the cleanest player.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's almost like a good like let's put Bob Provert in charge.
18:35
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it it I mean it's one of the rare times.
18:37
SPEAKER_04: So I mean I like that we have this in the yeah, yeah.
18:41
SPEAKER_04: I like that we have this in here too, because I think we're trying to be fair here, too, right?
18:44
SPEAKER_04: This isn't just oh, we our guys always get cheap shot in and and we never do it.
18:49
SPEAKER_04: Like, no, we've had Pittsburgh players that have been guilty of the same, and this is one of the more egregious instances.
18:55
SPEAKER_04: And Matt Cook, and and you're right, this wasn't his first offense.
18:58
SPEAKER_04: He did this kind of stuff a lot.
19:00
SPEAKER_04: And this was like this one was so blatant the NHL finally stepped in there, like, look, you're gone basically the rest of the season.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: I think if he wouldn't have gone for the guy's head, if he just would have hit him in like the chest or something, they probably would have just given him like a five-minute major and would have called it a day, maybe a five.
19:15
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he took he stuck his hell elbow way up in the air just so he could get him right in the head.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
19:20
SPEAKER_01: I think Craig or not Credit, the other guy, uh Steckles was worse, but because at least this guy had the pocket like in a couple seconds before.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: But but I mean still, it was one of the rare times the NHL actually kind of again did the right thing.
19:35
SPEAKER_04: And and I think that um that killed that hurt the penguins a lot that year because uh they lost uh uh the first round of the playoffs to Tampa Bay in a seven-game series, and that really hurt not having Matt Cook in that series.
19:47
SPEAKER_04: But again, he he had to he had to play differently, and to his credit, he he did after that.
19:53
SPEAKER_04: I I thought he came back and adjusted his game and and didn't have too many of those incidents afterwards, at least.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: So in our uh trio of uh penguins penalties that involve elbows, um you know where I'm going with this one, huh, Tim?
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Um that would be the Sidney Crosby Jacob Truba incident.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: And this one, I think, out of all of them, actually had a direct effect on the Penguins losing.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, I I will say this the the Steckle one definitely cost Crosby probably a shot at making like a run at Wayne Gretzky.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: Like if he doesn't get that hit, maybe he's like where Ovechkin is or around Ovechkin's numbers.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: But this cost the Penguins a uh playoff series.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, so Penguins lead three games to one, and they actually have a two to nothing lead in the second period.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: It's the middle of the game, it's 10 minutes gone in the second period.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: So that's like what exactly like the Rangers season is down to a half an hour at that point.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: And a uh gentleman named Jacob Truba decides uh, hey, he's gonna do some stuff here.
21:07
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and uh a lot of worry, of course, uh on everybody's mind.
21:11
SPEAKER_05: Early in the game, it took a couple of bumps throughout the game, but I think uh towards the end of the middle of that second period, this kick and wing there by Jacob Truba was the one that may have affected Sidney Crosby as he exited the ice at that particular moment.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: So there was a play in the middle of the ice between the dots, and I will say this at least it's a hockey player, it's not completely like dirty, but he comes in and Crosby kind of kneels like he's squatting down, maybe a little bit, and Truba sticks out his elbow, which that should at least been.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't think no penalty was called on that.
21:54
SPEAKER_01: Should at least been an elbowing call, I would have thought.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: But it happened really quick, and you might have not caught.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Caught it if it didn't if he didn't see it in slow motion, and they don't really call penalties in the playoffs anyway.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: But it did catch Crosby in the head, and it ended up I think he was he out for the rest of the series for that, Tim.
22:12
SPEAKER_04: I think he might have came back for game seven, but he was out for the next couple of games.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that kind of like so in defense of the Rangers, like if the Penguins just play good defense and can hold on to a 2-0 lead for 30 minutes, it this doesn't even matter.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe it's like one of those more background things, like, oh well, you know, Cross, you know, you don't really know as much, but because it goes to seven games, and the Penguins actually lost their first road game seven of uh in franchise history in Madison Square Garden.
22:46
SPEAKER_01: So um I rated this more of a borderline perfect.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: I know people were really up in arms about this at the time, especially with Sidney Crosby's you know history of concussions.
22:58
SPEAKER_01: I I don't I just I don't see it as blatant as the other ones.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: They could I think they should have at least, if they would have caught it, like I could see how you could miss it because it was kind of quick and it was in the middle of the ice.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: But in it it was subtle, like he subtly stuck it.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like the Matt Cook situation where he was like literally coming all the way across the ice with his elbow up.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's just but they don't but once again if that's Tom Brady or Wayne Gretzky, it gets called.
23:27
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah, so and that's the big difference, right, between the NFL and the NHL.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, even Wayne Gretzky and and anybody else, like if this is gr if you even sneezed on Gretzky, tell me they're not calling a penalty and you're suspended for your murder.
23:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and and and the NFL has taken drastic measures.
23:45
SPEAKER_04: They don't even care about intent.
23:46
SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's there's guys like uh um Casey for the Steelers when he got suspended uh uh uh this past season, right?
23:55
SPEAKER_04: It's like they don't even care.
23:56
SPEAKER_04: Hey, I I was diving, I wasn't dirty, but it's like you you violated whatever role there is, you led with your head, you did whatever, right?
24:04
SPEAKER_04: They don't they're gonna take drastic measures to protect the the players that they know people are buying tickets to see.
24:12
SPEAKER_04: And the NHL doesn't care.
24:14
SPEAKER_04: And and you know, Mark Madden, you can disagree with him a lot.
24:17
SPEAKER_04: I I you know I'm I'm up and down on him a lot with his opinions, and and I know a lot of them are just for for shock value, but he's spot on when he talks about this because he always says no one no one's gonna buy a ticket to see Jacob Truba play hockey.
24:32
SPEAKER_04: And the NHL doesn't care, they just don't get that, and that's why they're the fourth you know ranked league out of all the American sports leagues, because they don't understand what people want to see, they don't understand who the stars are, they don't understand that people want to see the stars, they don't want to see Jacob Truba throwing elbows, they want to see Sidney Crosby making nice plays, and the NFL gets that, that's why if you I would say the NBA gets that, that's why like Jordan and LeBron get every Steph Curry, they all get at their call, yeah.
25:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and if some no-name safety uh uh took a shot with hit hit you know uh Patrick Mahomes in the in the head with an elbow, that no name safety would get fined and suspended automatically.
25:15
SPEAKER_04: And and but the NFL or the NHL just doesn't they don't get it, they just don't get it.
25:20
SPEAKER_04: They I don't know that they ever will.
25:22
SPEAKER_04: They probably will after Crosby retires and the Penguins don't have a marquee star.
25:26
SPEAKER_04: And then you'll see everything change and and just say, man, so it would have been nice when we had Crosby, Lemue, Yager, etc.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, there's always been that complaint too that, oh, Crosby should have gone to the Rangers.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: And even you hear that like now in what were we, 2024, like they're just so desperate for Crosby to get out of Pittsburgh and go to you know what they consider a big market, you know, where that's Toronto or New York or you know, LA or wherever they want to put them, you know, they just you know they don't I I think there's a lot of media, especially in Canada, that doesn't like the fact that Sidney Crosby plays for Pittsburgh.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: I think they wouldn't be as mad if he played for New York or Chicago or Detroit, but definitely Pittsburgh is a problem for the Toronto fans.
26:09
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I'm sure.
26:10
SPEAKER_04: But I I still think even if he played for Toronto, again, we've seen this with other, it's not just Crosby, we've seen this with other NHL talent.
26:17
SPEAKER_04: They just don't care.
26:18
SPEAKER_04: They just don't they're like, hey, you know, keep your head up, right?
26:22
SPEAKER_04: They just don't care.
26:23
SPEAKER_04: So it's it's it's the mentality that they have.
26:26
SPEAKER_04: It's like I said, it's just it is what it is.
26:28
SPEAKER_04: You have to accept it or just stop rooting for for for hockey.
26:34
SPEAKER_04: It's it just sucks.
26:35
SPEAKER_04: It's like I it's like what we always talk about with college football and the conference alignments and the lack of a national championship.
26:41
SPEAKER_04: You just you say, Boy, I I can't believe that somebody wouldn't fix this, and then they don't, and you just shrug your shoulders and say, Okay, I guess we'll just accept the way it is.
26:50
SPEAKER_04: But it it's ridiculous.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Sting with uh now that that was I thought borderline.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: This one definitely is there's no borderline about it, and we're sticking with hockey, and this is definitely the definition of garage league, and for some reason it involves the Rangers again.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why it is the Rangers like to take cheap shots at uh superstars in Pittsburgh, but apparently they do.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: So this would be the Mario Lemieux Adam Graves incident, and this was 91.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: And uh the Penguins were on the power play, and Mary Lemieux at the point well, I think he had the puck at one point, and um Mario's like, you know, just handling the puck, and instead of like trying to get the puck, Adam Graves just literally takes his stick and just literally whacks him on the hands.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: There's no attempt to even go for the puck.
27:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I mean it it's pretty blatant.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: This is probably one of the more blatant ones on here.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: But we'll play the audio here and you can hear some of what they reacted at the time.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank God for Dan Marelli.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: He actually went, he hadn't got him in the face, he actually hit him right on the gloves, and he actually ended up breaking his wrist.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: And Mario was expected to be out a month because of that, but he only had he did come back amazingly in game two of the next series against the Bruins.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: Um the best thing about this was um the Penguins went on to win the cup and beat the Rangers and chant 1940, because they still didn't win a cup, although they would go on to win a cup a couple years later.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: But um uh quote by uh I think it was Phil Bork.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: The frustrating thing is there's nothing we can do even in it to even it out.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: You want revenge, you want an eye for an eye, as the old saying goes, and you want the league to do something about it.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Our best revenge is to beat them in the series.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: No doubt though, we're the ones who got punished.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: We lost a player who can't be replaced for something that was very illegal.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: So you can throw fairness out the window in this case, a tainted series, that's a good way of painting uh putting it.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh to their credit, um the the um Graves got suspended four games for that.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: So we say that the NHL never does anything to protect the superstars.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: They did they did suspend Adam Graves for four games, which is a lot in the playoffs.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: That's almost a whole series, basically.
29:26
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I I think to Phil Bork's point though, like you can't it's not an even trade because like who's Adam?
29:34
SPEAKER_04: Mario Lemieux was the best player in the world at that in 1992, and Adam Graves is Adam Graves.
29:41
SPEAKER_04: Like, you know, if you really wanted to be fair, they would have suspended Messier for four games just to even it out.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: I think Messier was hurt though, I think.
29:48
SPEAKER_04: Oh, that's right.
29:49
SPEAKER_04: Well, let's suspend them anyway.
29:52
SPEAKER_04: But but yeah, it it just it was it was totally um you know, it's like it it just that's and that's the thing that even in and not even going back to the 2022 series with Truba, it's like even if you suspend Truba, it's like okay, but we lost Crosby.
30:08
SPEAKER_04: You know, so it's like it's it's almost like there's nothing really to stop these guys from from doing this.
30:14
SPEAKER_04: Now, like you said, you still have to step in and do something.
30:17
SPEAKER_04: And in this case, they actually did to their credit, like you said.
30:20
SPEAKER_01: And the and then I called this the full burff because this there they he wasn't me making a play on the puck or any I mean I guess Lemieux at least did have the puck, but that was intent to injure.
30:31
SPEAKER_01: He you just you're whacking somebody in the hands.
30:34
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like, oh, I went to go get the puck and it missed and I hit his hands.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: He went right for his hands, and there's just no two ways about it.
30:42
SPEAKER_04: It was a baseball swing.
30:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's what it was.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: Like, how can you justify yeah, like it wasn't like along the ice, like, oh, I hit and I slid up his stick and got his hand.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: He just went right at his hands.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: Right, like the puck is on the ice, man.
30:56
SPEAKER_04: It's not he's not holding it.
30:58
SPEAKER_04: You know, I I I just yeah, that made no sense in terms of defending it.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: So uh moving back to football, um we're going to go to 2005 and uh gentleman named Kemo von Ohoffen, and we've covered this once or twice before.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: And once again, there's something about Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, and this is on the list at least twice.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: Teams from different sports, too.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it is when Pittsburgh and Cincinnati get together, whether it's baseball or football, man, stuff happens.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: Um uh so uh uh what happens is the beginning of the game, it's the wild card playoffs.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: Cincinnati's at home.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: They got a good team, the Steelers got a good team, but they're a wild card.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: And the first, like first or second play of the game, Carson Palmer hits Chris Henry for like a 70-yard pass play.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, at the end of the play, Kimo and all often kind of gets thrown to the ground and rolls into Carson Palmer's knee, tearing his knee and ending his game and his season.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess, you know, I didn't think it was dirty at the time.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: I still don't think it's dirty.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: I think Cincinnati fans made too much of this, but we'll listen to the audio.
32:16
SPEAKER_06: I did not see what happened.
32:18
SPEAKER_06: to Carson Palmer.
32:20
SPEAKER_06: Timo von Ohoffen hits him at the left knee.
32:24
SPEAKER_06: Timo von It looks like he's a little unbelievable through the getting on the field.
32:34
SPEAKER_11: Kimo von Olhoffen, who began his career as the Bengals, Six years of one getting the Palmer injured on only the second snap.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: So I you if you watch the video, you can see Bonnoffin kind of tries to turn his back, and he was kind of falling.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: He was breaking through the line past the guard or the tackle, and the guard kind of let him go and he fell on the ground.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I I don't think there's any intention to injure here.
33:02
SPEAKER_01: It just was like this is a you know what happens play, and it was unfortunate for Carson Palmer.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: It gives Cincinnati fans a great excuse to whine and cry about it.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: But chemo was not a and once again, this is another like if this was a guy that was a dirty player, then I guess people would be more upset about it.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: But chemo never played dirty, he was a very clean player and very nice guy, apparently.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: So I what would what what are you gonna say, Tim?
33:29
SPEAKER_01: I mean, are we gonna like uh I I I gave this a lady bing.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: I I don't think chemo it was just an accident.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah to say, I I agree.
33:38
SPEAKER_04: It was it was chemo was just trying to make he was just trying to charge in, he got tripped up with the offensive linemen.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: He turned his back too.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Like you could tell he was trying I don't think he was trying to hit the hit him.
33:50
SPEAKER_04: And I and I and I certainly get why the Bengals fans are upset.
33:53
SPEAKER_04: Like it was literally they had waited all these years to be in the playoffs.
33:56
SPEAKER_04: They won the division that year.
33:58
SPEAKER_04: This was like they they literally waited what was it, like 15 years or something since they had been in the playoffs.
34:04
SPEAKER_04: And then the second play of the game, their their their star quarterback gets knocked out.
34:09
SPEAKER_04: So I I would have been upset too, but like you said, it's just one of those unfortunate things.
34:14
SPEAKER_04: It was not on purpose, it just wasn't.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you know, I don't know what Keno's doing anymore.
34:21
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, Carson Palmer's retired, so I mean it's just that like you said, I think too, like the they haven't won a lot that hasn't helped.
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I think if they would have won a Super Bowl back when Joe Burrow made it, like maybe that that would have quieted us down a little bit.
34:37
SPEAKER_04: But hey, here's a fun fact.
34:39
SPEAKER_04: The Bengals had two 10-point leads in that game.
34:41
SPEAKER_04: Yes, even after Palmer got hurt.
34:43
SPEAKER_04: So like you said about the Penguins being up to nothing against the Rangers in 2022, it's like okay, but you don't have to fold.
34:52
SPEAKER_04: You can still play defense, right?
34:53
SPEAKER_04: Like I didn't play defense.
34:55
SPEAKER_04: So just saying.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: It is kind of the same thing that happened to the penguins that happened to the Bengals there.
35:02
SPEAKER_01: So um moving while sticking with football and a guy who was voted the most dirty player in the NFL at one point.
35:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, that would be one Heinz Ward.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: And uh he had a he had a hit on uh guy, I think he looks like Fred Sanford from Sanford and Sun at this point, but that would be Ed Reed.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: We're also gonna include like his hit on Keith Rivers just to clean up the Heinz Ward hits, put them, put them kind of boat together, compare or contrast these hits.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: Um the first one is definitely Ed Reed.
35:37
SPEAKER_01: Is uh I think the Steelers are winning 35 to 7 at this point, and Ed Reed's just literally playing safety in the middle of the field, nowhere near a play.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: And Heinz Ward just kind of clocks him and knocks him out for absolutely no reason.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: It was it's definitely one of the dirtier plays.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: I will definitely Heinz Ward earned his dirtiest player reputation on this play.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: Reed is uh woozy, and Heinz Ward, who has been picking off Ravens DBs all night, able to do it here to Ed Reed, and that's what had Reed, woozy, and shaking up.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: I love how he starts calling for the trainers as soon as he hits them.
36:16
SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: That was just that that was dirty.
36:18
SPEAKER_01: There was just no reason for that.
36:20
SPEAKER_01: I I can't even justify it anymore.
36:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know that's good old-fashioned, hard playing, but at some point, you know, come on, this guy has a family to feed.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Don't hit him.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I mean, if the there wasn't even like a play to be made.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Like it would have been one thing if there was a running back over there or something, but I I don't know.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: That's Heinz Ward for you.
36:42
SPEAKER_04: I mean Did you hear that um clicking noise, Steve?
36:45
SPEAKER_04: That's the sound of like hundreds of people unsubscribing from our podcast.
36:49
SPEAKER_04: podcast 'cause you 'cause you dared impugn the the great Heinz Ward.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: I love Heinz Ward.
36:54
SPEAKER_01: He's a great physical player.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just that one, it's 35 to 7.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
36:59
SPEAKER_04: I I I I'm with you.
37:01
SPEAKER_04: That was that was a little bit of a, you know, and and yeah, he was trying to block him, but there's a difference between blocking and just like getting a running start and just destroying a guy.
37:11
SPEAKER_04: And and I know we hate the Ravens and we hated Ed Reed and Ray Lewis and all those guys who were kind of like secretly like applauding it, but you know, you know, just being totally objective, yeah, that's dirty.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: I rated that one the full perfect because it's just there's no football play to be made there.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: It just I mean, I guess at that point it was within the rules.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: He didn't hit him while he wasn't looking.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was kind of tangled up with another blocker and burst off of him and then hit Ed Reed, but it's 35 to 7.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: And I really, oh, you should play every play hard, and maybe you should, but come on, that that that was a little much in my mind.
37:49
SPEAKER_01: Now coming up to the next hit was a uh there's a scoreless game in 2008, and Keith Rivers is the big first round linebacker draft pick for the Cincinnati Bengals.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna they're gonna take them to the Super Bowl.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: He's from USC, he's a great player.
38:05
SPEAKER_01: And um, there's an early play early in this game.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Ben completes a pass to um uh who was it, Spaith.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: I think it was Matt Spaith, and Matt Spaith is running down the sideline for a first down, and Keith Rivers is pursuing him, and Hines Ward hits him and breaks his jaw, and I think Keith Rivers was out for the season because of that.
38:25
SPEAKER_03: He was.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: And so I mean this uh we'll we'll listen to I don't think this is a dirty hit because there was a football play to be made, and you know, Keith Rivers, you know, could have made the tackle.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: And uh I just back again to Melone Moore, who got right behind the incoming rush.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: The glitch was owned by Jonathan Joseph.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is the guy that throws his body around.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: He is a most complete receiver in the game.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: He is unselfish, a great competitor, and he's willing to block.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he literally, like, in and to you know, Heinz Ward's defense, Keith Rivers probably outweighs Heinz Ward by what, a hundred pounds?
39:10
SPEAKER_01: I I he just knocked him completely over.
39:13
SPEAKER_01: That's a play I like by Keith uh by Heinz Ward.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: That's that's a good play.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: And you know, watch out for Heinz Ward.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: I guess I mean what is he supposed to do?
39:20
SPEAKER_01: Just let Keith Rivers tackle Matt Spath?
39:23
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I don't and they they actually changed the rules where you're not allowed to block people when they can't see you.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: I I don't even know that oh, if you come no, they changed the rule where you can't come from your own back towards the other goal line and block somebody.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And it's it's the dumbest rule, and it's just you know it's they went too far with that one.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: I mean again, the NFL is a reactive league, so that's if you want to find them and suspend them for the one against Ed Reed, I I think that's uncalled for.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: But this is a scoreless game, and Keith Rivers is actually making a play on the ball.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: This isn't on the other side of the field, this isn't away from the ball.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: He's going to make a play.
40:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, what are you supposed to do?
40:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, set a pick like a basketball.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know.
40:07
SPEAKER_04: It was it was a really vicious hit, too.
40:10
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it was and like like you said, it's it was a block.
40:14
SPEAKER_04: I don't think it was dirty, but uh man, I I was at that game, it's the only road stealer game I've ever attended.
40:20
SPEAKER_04: And you could hear in that clip the gasp from the crowd in Cincinnati.
40:25
SPEAKER_04: Everybody's just like, oh like you could just feel that hit.
40:29
SPEAKER_04: And when he didn't get up, you're like, boy, he's yeah, he's really hurt because uh it was just such a hard hit.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: And you're right, Heinz Ward, you just You did have to watch out for him because he was gonna block like that.
40:42
SPEAKER_04: And to your point, you know, safeties and and cornerbacks and linebackers have been hitting people like that for years, so a lot of wide receivers not allowed to.
40:52
SPEAKER_04: That that's kind of a double standard.
40:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I don't understand.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: I I rated that one a Lady Bing because I don't think it was a dirty play.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: They changed the rules because of it, which I it's just I I I don't have a problem with that play at all.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Maybe if he he was not, you know, I I don't know.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: I think it's within the rules, and if somebody's going to make a tackle, you're allowed to block them, but apparently not anymore.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: So go figure.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, sticking with actually the name, uh, Vontez Berfick makes his uh first appearance on our cheap shot countdown.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: Can you believe it took this long?
41:28
SPEAKER_04: Well, you were just you know, warming it up.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: I was just warming everybody up from the main course.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: This is yeah, this is definitely the king of cheap shots outside of hockey.
41:38
SPEAKER_01: I I can't think of another guy that that has been he's probably one of the dirtiest football players ever.
41:44
SPEAKER_01: I I can't I I can't even like imagine if he if he would have played back in the 50s, somebody would have killed him, like pulling this crap.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Like Chuck Bagneric and Dick Buccus and like those guys, they wouldn't have put up with this silliness.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: I mean but anyway, moving on.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: Um Perfect uh on Big Ben and then Antonio Brown.
42:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, this one I always thought was a little more borderline because Big Ben actually has the football on this play, and your job is to tackle the guy with the football last time I checked, right, Tim.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: They haven't changed that role yet, right?
42:19
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and this is in the 2015 playoff game, right?
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is the 2015 wild card game.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the Steelers might have been leading at this point.
42:27
SPEAKER_04: They were, yeah.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: And so uh Burfick goes to tackle Big Ben on a sack, and um he hits him, and Ben kind of falls down, and Ben gets hurt, he hurts his shoulder.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: Rathlessberger in trouble.
42:44
SPEAKER_11: Decked at the three by Burfecht, who has the football, but The quarterback is hurt, the black is both.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: fell on his shoulder.
42:56
SPEAKER_01: Oh boy.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you watched Burfeck stand up, he kind of knees Ben in the shoulder.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's what people saw and they were like, oh my goodness, what a dirty cheap shot.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think that I think he was just standing up.
43:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that was intentional.
43:13
SPEAKER_01: But once again, this is like kind of the Matt Cook effect because Burfeck by that point had a pretty good rep like no well, what did we say?
43:21
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I used the word good, had a reputation of doing things that weren't within the rules.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: And that that like kind of happened, and I I think that's a borderline call.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh they didn't call throw a penalty on it, which you would not be allowed to tackle him because he came down with the full force of his body on top of Ben, you would not be able to make that sack nowadays.
43:43
SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't throw a penalty.
43:44
SPEAKER_04: That would be a penalty today, but but you're right.
43:46
SPEAKER_04: It it if that was Geno Atkins, right, making that same sack, who is who is not a dirty player, and and you know, he makes that sack and Ben gets hurt, you're like, okay, uh man, that just sucks if Ben got.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: Hurt.
44:00
SPEAKER_04: But nobody would have I doubt anybody would have been accusing Dino Atkins of playing dirty.
44:06
SPEAKER_04: But because it was perfect, I mean, my goodness.
44:08
SPEAKER_04: And he had already taken out Le'Veon Bell that season.
44:10
SPEAKER_04: That was the same season he ended LeVeandell seasons.
44:14
SPEAKER_04: And then he he you know injures Ben in the playoffs.
44:17
SPEAKER_04: And then of course later in the game where you're gonna get to that.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh later on in the game, uh Cincinnati's actually, I think, ahead, right?
44:26
SPEAKER_01: Yes by a couple points, uh by a point, right?
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
44:29
SPEAKER_01: And so uh the Steelers are last gas.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: Ben separated shoulder, they stole Brown, so he throws a pass to Antonio Brown, and it was definitely a bad idea to hit Antonio Brown in the head because that had been illegal for years, and it wasn't even close.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: The pass was like way over Brown's head, so if he just doesn't hit him, it's an incomplete pass.
44:53
SPEAKER_01: This is a dumb move.
45:00
SPEAKER_11: Oh, a flag does come in.
45:02
SPEAKER_11: Went to the head.
45:03
SPEAKER_11: Lewis Harris is gonna be flagged for this on the hit on Antonio Brown, and it's gonna put the Steelers It's still gonna range.
45:15
SPEAKER_11: Perfect was in there too.
45:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he literally, like, there was just no reason.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: He was running past Brown.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: If he just like doesn't run into Brown or lower his shoulder, I think if he stays upright and runs past Brown and kind of tries to move out of the way, they probably don't call a penalty on that.
45:36
SPEAKER_01: The ball was way over Brown's head.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: There was no way he was gonna catch that.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't a bang bang play.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, maybe do you think slow-mo made it look like worse than it was?
45:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: I think this was just a dumb play by a dirty player in the at the worst possible time for the Bengals.
45:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:57
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:57
SPEAKER_04: He heard Burffick was like an an addict for dirty play.
46:03
SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like it's like, well, uh, you know, uh one drink won't kill me.
46:08
SPEAKER_04: And he just It's like like you said, the whole season's on the line, and and they could have stopped the Steelers there and they could have won, and they could have advanced in the playoffs.
46:18
SPEAKER_04: But he to him it was more important to you know, and that was the Bengals of that era.
46:23
SPEAKER_04: It's like, okay, we you may have beaten us, he may have ended our season, but we clubbed your guy in the head, so there's that.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: I I gave this one the full perfect.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: Um actually it's funny, I was watching a highlight, I guess because I was looking these up, so the algorithm started on a certain, you know, uh video sharing service, started showing me cheap shots.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: And um Steve Atwater, who was pretty good for a couple of his own, kind of did a very similar hit to this in Super Bowl 31, I want to say.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 31.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: What was the one Denver finally won?
46:58
SPEAKER_01: Their first Super Bowl was that 32?
47:01
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
47:02
SPEAKER_01: So it was Super Bowl 32, and this was after Denver had scored to take the lead late in the game.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: And I remember this play because Brett Farb kind of threw it, and it was at least a little closer than than this the past, but Atwater and the other defender, he hit more the other defender for the Broncos than than the uh receiver for the Packers, but man, it was very similar to this perfect hit, but I it wasn't considered dirty back then, but and Atwater actually hurt himself on the play because he led with his head.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: So so I mean, you know, there there was kind of a precedent from years past, but that was like what would that have been 1997?
47:43
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, my goodness, by that point it had been 20 years, so maybe you should stop doing that.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: So they definitely had changed the rule years before.
47:54
SPEAKER_01: So definitely the full Berfect, and I think that's the end of our uh Vontez Berfect plays Tim.
48:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we could have probably done a whole podcast, but he doesn't really deserve the time.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: So he's not in the league anymore.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: He went to the Raiders and he did other stuff too.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Like remember tr twisting Cam Newton's leg after he scored a touchdown, and it wasn't just the Steelers who he didn't know.
48:18
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, he got he got suspended for the rest of the season at one point for I want to say it was a guy for the Colts that he hit.
48:25
SPEAKER_04: So you know, again, that's like I said, the the NFL finally, you know, it took them 50 years, but they finally decided, hey, we're not gonna allow this kind of stuff anymore.
48:36
SPEAKER_04: And like I said, maybe the NHL will get there someday too.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, sticking with uh the NFL here, um Turkey Jones, or I guess in the guy's name is actually John Jones, but I don't know why he's called Turkey.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: I didn't really look at it.
48:50
SPEAKER_04: Speaking of stuff that the NFL allowed 50 years ago.
48:52
unknown: Yeah.
48:53
SPEAKER_01: So this is Terry Bradshaw, and this is in this is the same season.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: I think it's 1976 again.
48:59
SPEAKER_12: Correct.
48:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's week five of 1976 season, and um, he's sacked by the Cleveland defender, and basically he decides that he's going to uh suplex him onto the ground.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: Um he pile jives a Bradshaw into the ground, and he like Bradshaw like literally is paralyzed for like a couple days and does not play for three more weeks.
49:25
SPEAKER_01: Uh Cleveland did win the game 18 to 16.
49:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, this is a pretty scary moment.
49:30
SPEAKER_13: On the final sack, Jones exuberance sent Steeler fortunes for the game and perhaps the season crashing to the ground.
49:45
SPEAKER_13: Any remaining hopes Pittsburgh may have harbored about a record third straight Super Bowl were shattered by a stunning 18-16 defeat to Cleveland.
49:53
SPEAKER_13: With Bradshaw out for the next three to four games and a one-and-four record.
49:58
SPEAKER_13: Pittsburgh's occupancy of last place in football's toughest division may not be so temporary a visit after all.
50:08
SPEAKER_01: Boy, that was very pro-Cleveland, wasn't it?
50:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, if you watch that hit on the video, it's nasty.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: He drops him on his head, and you can see Terry's pretty badly hurt.
50:20
SPEAKER_01: He said he couldn't feel his hands or feet for a couple days after that.
50:24
SPEAKER_01: He couldn't really move.
50:26
SPEAKER_01: And uh it was funny because like back then they didn't they took him off on a stretcher, but he said they didn't have any place to put him in the locker room, so they took a locker room door off and like made like a makeshift like table out of it and strapped them to the door to immobilize him.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: And then when he went back to Pittsburgh on a they had to send him on a flight, they put him on top of the seats on the plane so that he wouldn't move.
50:51
SPEAKER_01: So um thank goodness medical care has evolved since then.
50:56
SPEAKER_01: Um Terry obviously survived and won a couple Super Bowls.
51:00
SPEAKER_01: Um uh they did fine uh Jones for this play.
51:05
SPEAKER_01: He got a fine three thousand dollars, which that's a pretty big fine.
51:08
SPEAKER_01: Like where what Atkinson only got fifteen hundred for a much more blatant cheap shot.
51:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah he actually was sacking Terry Bradshaw.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: The only thing he did wrong was he like flipped him like Bradshaw, I guess, had been getting away.
51:21
SPEAKER_01: He was like a scrambler still.
51:23
SPEAKER_01: And instead of just like taking him to the ground, he flipped him upside down and pile drived him on his head.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: And that that was if he just would have tackled him, I don't think anybody would even remember this play except for the Steelers lost.
51:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's interesting.
51:38
SPEAKER_04: When you go back and read the the media accounts at the time, they interview some of the Steelers defensive players.
51:48
SPEAKER_04: And a lot of them at the time say they didn't think it was dirty.
51:52
SPEAKER_04: They understand when you have a quarterback like Bradshaw, like you said, Steve, that could scramble, you can't just uh wrap him up because he's gonna get away.
52:02
SPEAKER_04: And so he he you know, Bradshaw was kind of squirming and he felt the best way to tackle him was to pull him backwards, you know, and and he ended up spiking him on his head.
52:12
SPEAKER_04: I don't know that I don't know that he consciously thought, like, if I if I do this, I'll I'll spike him right onto the right onto his neck.
52:19
SPEAKER_04: It it looked probably worse I than his intent was.
52:23
SPEAKER_04: It was I would say maybe more reckless than dirty, if that makes sense.
52:27
SPEAKER_01: I I gave this an almost perfect because I don't think there was necessarily I I think it was like uh oops, I went too far.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: Right.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't a lot of intent.
52:36
SPEAKER_01: Reckless is a good way to describe it.
52:38
SPEAKER_01: He's not he wasn't a dirty player.
52:39
SPEAKER_01: I haven't heard anybody ever describe this guy as a dirty player.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: Cleveland sucked back then.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: I I I just I don't know what else to say about this.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: I know your mother was rather upset about this play.
52:52
SPEAKER_04: I wish I wish I could have my mom on this podcast just to talk about this play because she she is not like this, she's not like Turkey Jones at all.
53:01
SPEAKER_04: Fifty years later, he he he it was like it was yesterday to her.
53:05
SPEAKER_04: He he really he like it it it and the the how scary it was, you know.
53:10
SPEAKER_04: She's like, I thought he was dead.
53:11
SPEAKER_04: I literally thought they had killed him on on like it looks bad.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: It's and you can see he is still moving a little bit, so I don't know about Terry saying he was paralyzed because you could see on the on the replay, like he was moving his legs a little bit out.
53:24
SPEAKER_04: Sort of, but it was almost like um like a reaction.
53:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
53:28
SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
53:29
SPEAKER_04: Like uh like it that yeah, it just it looked horrific.
53:34
SPEAKER_01: 70s football, yeah, baby.
53:37
SPEAKER_04: All right.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: I think it I I never felt the intent was there for him.
53:42
SPEAKER_04: So no, like I said, I think it was reckless.
53:45
SPEAKER_04: I don't think he was consciously thinking I'm gonna do this.
53:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but at the same time, he didn't have to to lift him up in the air like that.
53:52
SPEAKER_04: It was just reckless.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: So sticking with football, um, there was a game in 1995, the home opener for the Steelers, and they always go well, right?
54:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:02
SPEAKER_01: This game was a rough one, and the Steelers ended up winning this game, but they used all three quarterbacks.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh Neil O'Donnell had gotten hurt, and I think he broke his pinky finger or something on his throwing hand.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: So Mike Tomzak comes in and he's doing okay until he decides to scramble, and he is scrambling and he runs back towards his own like goal line.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: They're in like I think they were on the other side of the Lions side of the field, and um Terry Scrogans literally knocks him in the next week, I think, as the announcer says here.
54:35
SPEAKER_01: It's it's one of the worst hits I've ever seen.
54:38
SPEAKER_01: He's actually runs into the defender.
54:42
SPEAKER_07: First out in 10.
54:43
SPEAKER_07: Good time for Tom Zack.
54:44
SPEAKER_07: Now it collapses.
54:45
SPEAKER_07: Oh, it's knocked in the next week by Tracy Scrogans.
54:49
SPEAKER_07: He's hurt.
54:50
SPEAKER_07: Tom Zack is not silly.
54:53
SPEAKER_01: Tracy Scrogans, not Terry Scroggins.
54:56
SPEAKER_01: My apologies.
54:57
SPEAKER_04: Did you did you recognize the other?
54:58
SPEAKER_04: So I think Kevin Harlan was the play-by-play guy, but did you hear the guy going, he's hurt, he's hurt?
55:03
SPEAKER_04: Did you recognize the other?
55:03
SPEAKER_04: No, I didn't know who was that.
55:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:05
SPEAKER_04: It was Jerry Glanville.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Jerry approved of that hit.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:11
SPEAKER_04: Uh I was I was at this game too, and what I remember about that was when Tom Zak was scrambling, you could see Scrogans running from that other direction, and then you saw Tom Zack like turn around right into him, and it was like in slow motion.
55:29
SPEAKER_04: You're like, no, Mike.
55:31
SPEAKER_04: Like, stop.
55:32
SPEAKER_04: And just I mean, you could see that coming, and and you could hear the gas again, you could hear the gasp in the crowd, like, oh.
55:40
SPEAKER_04: Uh, but I I I I I'll let you state your opinion here too, Steve.
55:44
SPEAKER_04: But I I didn't think I think that was just bad timing and a good hit.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: And to his credit, you know, Jim Miller did come in.
55:51
SPEAKER_01: I think I think Mike Tomzak only missed the series after that.
55:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Tomzack actually finished his game.
55:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and they won the game.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: He actually played well well enough at the end and he got him in the field goal range, and Norm Johnson kicks a game-winning field goal.
56:04
SPEAKER_12: Yeah.
56:04
SPEAKER_01: So uh Mike Tomzak on real.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this hit looks nasty.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: I mean, just because the fact that he was literally running one way and he gets decleated like in the air, and Scrogan's pile drives him into the turf.
56:19
SPEAKER_01: It was unbelievable.
56:20
SPEAKER_01: I've never I I don't think I've ever seen a hit quite that hard.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I said I called it a lady bing.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: That's just football, man.
56:28
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to get hit like that.
56:30
SPEAKER_01: Go play baseball or basketball or something.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: I mean, because that or track and field, because that that was just good gold, clean fashion.
56:37
SPEAKER_01: Good job by Scroggins, bad job by Mike Tomzak.
56:41
SPEAKER_01: But good on Mike Tomzak for being a tough guy and coming back in, and I guess all those years with Ditka paid off, huh?
56:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, switching back to hockey, um, we're going to uh uh does anybody remember Darius Casparitis?
56:58
SPEAKER_01: Who doesn't?
56:59
SPEAKER_01: Um do you remember his hit on Eric Lindros?
57:02
SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
57:03
SPEAKER_01: So March 7th, 1998, a game at the Civic Arita.
57:06
SPEAKER_01: Um I think the Flyers were on a power play, winning four to two, and Darius Casparitus hits Eric Lindross with um probably I call it borderline.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: Um Lindross at least had the puck, and he was entering the zone, so I mean it's a legit hockey play.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, what happened was uh Lindros gets concussed, and this is one of those, it's probably more because of how this guy got hurt than anything else.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think Casparit has had a little bit of a reputation, too.
57:42
SPEAKER_10: He's heard him.
57:43
SPEAKER_10: Knocked the helmet right off.
57:45
SPEAKER_10: And they're going after Casper I just the flyers very concerned.
57:50
SPEAKER_10: Lindrass took a blow to the head, knocked the helmet right off, and he is dazed.
57:55
SPEAKER_10: Now he's in trouble.
57:57
SPEAKER_10: Lindrass, oh, shoulder.
57:59
SPEAKER_10: You can see Mike Lindras had the puck in his feet.
58:02
SPEAKER_10: That's a good clean hit.
58:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think I agree with like he he just he had to c pucket his feet, the puck was there, separate man from puck.
58:12
SPEAKER_01: That's nothing dirty there.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: The Flyers didn't appreciate it because they're the Philadelphia Flyers, and to his defense, like what was like Lindros was like what 6'5, 250, and Casparitus was like a normal-sized human.
58:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean Lindros was huge, and for Casparitus to take him out like that, and then gas uh Lindros after that had a lot of I remember had problems with the concussions after that.
58:37
SPEAKER_01: And um, I I think this is a lady bing, this is a legit hit, this is a hockey play.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: He probably gets fined for this now.
58:44
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he doesn't, it's the NHL.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: I I don't know.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: What say you, Tim?
58:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean I'm glad this one was later on the list because I you could accuse us of being you know, homers because we said the all the other the Truba hit and the Adam Graves and all that, but this you know, this was literally Eric Lindros had a problem with looking down.
59:09
SPEAKER_04: Like he did that a lot.
59:10
SPEAKER_04: I think because he was so big, Steve, that and and probably most of his career before he got into the NHL, he was ten times bigger than every other person he played against.
59:20
SPEAKER_01: So if somebody hit him, they just bounced off.
59:22
SPEAKER_04: He just bounced off.
59:23
SPEAKER_04: So he had this he had this bad habit of looking down, and he was like he he kind of lost control of the puck there, and he was literally like had his head like literally like he was like dropped a contact lens.
59:36
SPEAKER_04: Like that's what he was doing, right?
59:38
SPEAKER_04: He was like, where to go, where to go, and and that's what happened, and that wasn't the last time it happened.
59:43
SPEAKER_04: The the Scott Stevens hit in the playoffs when they were playing the Devils a couple of years later was a very similar play where he had his head down and Scott Stevens hit him and he got really, really hurt.
59:53
SPEAKER_04: And I know the Flyer fans were all mad about that and they were all mad about Casper, but he just he just didn't.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_04: He just he that was that was how he got himself hurt, which he wasn't he wasn't he didn't have his head on a swivel.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_04: Most hockey players do, and I think just because he was so big and so strong, he never really thought he had to worry about that.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_04: And and unfortunately for him, um, you know, he ended up having some some real concussion issues.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_01: And you know what, to his credit, Casparitus didn't or Lindros didn't hold it against Casparitus, actually recruited Casparitus to the Rangers when uh Lindros was with the Rangers.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_01: So no hard feelings.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Um you know I think he realized it was a good clean hit.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: He's he's a mammoth of a guy.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: He's just a big person.
1:00:37
SPEAKER_01: He's one of the biggest hockey players, like skill guys.
1:00:40
SPEAKER_01: Like he wasn't a defenseman, he was was he a center?
1:00:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he was a center.
1:00:44
SPEAKER_01: He was just huge.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_01: And for Casparitis to do that, I still called Lady Bing legit hit.
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: No, no intent to injure, just just caught him with his head down, and you know, and that's kind of the difference between like in football now that would be a fine because oh my goodness, it looks so horrible.
1:01:03
SPEAKER_04: Uh you know, so yeah, and and Lindros was like you said, he was kind of a freak of nature, really skilled, really talented player.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_04: Flyers were so lucky to have him.
1:01:12
SPEAKER_04: I mean, think about how many championships they won.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_04: They won wait, hang on, I gotta look this up.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: Um they won zero, yes.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:21
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_01: Well, they never they never really had the goaltending.
1:01:25
SPEAKER_01: I think that's been their biggest bugaboo is they they've never had the goaltending to go along with.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_01: They've had some talented players, but just never had the goaltending.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_01: Oh well.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, going back to baseball in a little city in Ohio that's on the Ohio River.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the conversation, Cincinnati, Ohio.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_01: So it's the ninth inning of a regular season game.
1:01:53
SPEAKER_01: Cincinnati's the Reds are good.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates are good.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_01: Hey, what a shocker.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_01: It's August of 2012, Tim, and the Pirates are playing meaningful baseball.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_01: Woo-hoo, and the Reds are too.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_01: What Twilight Zone episode of have we stumbled into, huh?
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, the the Reds have a guy named Araldis Chapman.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: Raldis Chapman is another person that is like six foot seven.
1:02:16
SPEAKER_01: No, he's not.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_01: He's like six' four, but he's a left-hander.
1:02:19
SPEAKER_01: And you think, well, lefties, they're crafty and throw like 80 miles an hour and throw curveballs and stuff.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_01: No, this guy throws 101 miles per hour.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_01: He is basically Randy Johnson, if Randy Johnson was Cuban.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: And uh so it there the uh Reds are up three to nothing in the ninth inning because Chapman's a closer.
1:02:42
SPEAKER_01: And he has they have two outs in the ninth, and Andrew McCutcheon who's the um he was basically on pace to become the MVP of baseball, uh, at least the National League.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_01: Chapman decides it's a good idea to bean him with nobody on and two men out.
1:03:00
SPEAKER_01: I am not quite sure why you do this.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_13: Wow.
1:03:10
SPEAKER_13: 101 miles per hour and the cutson
1:03:16
SPEAKER_01: Understandably still understandable.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: I I don't know what the logic was there.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_01: You could even see the catcher, like maybe I that looked intentional to me.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_01: When I mean, maybe he just was trying to throw inside and he lost control of something, you know, it could happen, but at the time I've always thought that was intentional, and it doesn't even make any sense to hit anybody in that situation.
1:03:39
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not sure what that was, besides maybe he was trying to intimidate McCutcheon for later in the series if he came up with men on base and he figured he had a chance to do that.
1:03:49
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, Tim.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: Any any any figuring out the logic on this one.
1:03:54
SPEAKER_04: I I yeah, I I'll I'll probably disagree with you on this one.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_04: I think I think the pitch just got away from him because like you said, there's no motive.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_04: They they have a three-run lead.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_04: He's you don't want to start something.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_04: You're trying to close out the game.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_04: You don't want to start something by putting a guy on base.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_01: So especially with Kutchin's a good base dealer, too.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_04: Right.
1:04:14
SPEAKER_04: It just it it makes no sense for him to do it on purpose.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_04: So I so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt there that it again, like the guy threw so hard that you're gonna have one or two just maybe get away from you.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_04: That's all.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_01: Alright.
1:04:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll give you that.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: Um I just chalked us up the Cincinnati teams doing stupid stuff late in games.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_01: I gave him the full perfect because I think I still think it's intentional, but I I can see your point.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
1:04:40
SPEAKER_01: I I just I never I remember this happening.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_01: I think it's just he was trying to intimidate the pirates.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_01: I really do.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_01: I I I totally think that.
1:04:48
SPEAKER_04: And well, those two guys are teammates now.
1:04:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's the uh whole like you know, PS to all this.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that this is another one of those cases like Lindros and um Casparitus.
1:04:58
SPEAKER_01: There's no hard feelings.
1:04:59
SPEAKER_01: Like, ah, just good clean baseball.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't like he hit him in the head, and it wasn't like anybody got permanently injured or career ended.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_01: So so we're gonna stay in Cincinnati, that that great American city, right, Tim?
1:05:12
SPEAKER_01: Only we're going to bow back to 1974.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh neither of us were alive in 1974, but hey, we're having fun, right?
1:05:20
SPEAKER_01: It's the uh Nixon administration, no, it's the Ford administration.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_01: Gerald Ford's in the White House, Watergate has happened, good time is being had by America, right?
1:05:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so Doc Ellis is on the mound, and uh Doc Ellis is uh sober, I think, for this game, although what he does doesn't make any sense.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_01: So Doc Ellis decides that he's really sick of losing to the Reds, and he decides I'm going to burn uh bean every player that comes up to bat for the Cincinnati Reds in the first inning.
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: This isn't like late in the game in a blowout.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna go for it.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: And he does.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: That's the best part.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_01: He hit Pete Rose.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, oh, who's the guy who was the announcer on Sunday Night Baseball?
1:06:06
SPEAKER_01: Joe Morgan, I think.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: And then he was gonna bean John.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_01: There was another guy in there that I don't recognize, but he couldn't hit that guy because I uh Doc Ellis in his own interview said that guy was like playing dodgeball at that point.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_01: He was like dancing around, so he couldn't hit him.
1:06:21
SPEAKER_01: And he was gonna bean uh Johnny Bench next, but Danny Murtaw caught on to what was going on and took him out.
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: And this was not a oh I lost one.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_01: This was intentional by Doc Ellis and just didn't make much of uh make sense.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_01: And because it's 1974, we we don't have any video.
1:06:39
SPEAKER_01: I wish we would have had video of this.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_01: Now that would have been fun to fun to see the reaction of what was going on.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, there it's just the full Vantez Burpic.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_01: There's just no re like you literally took yourself out of the game, which means your bullpen has to come in in the first inning with the bases loaded.
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: There's just no reason to do this.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_01: I it's just but it's Doc Ellis, so what the late Doc Ellis.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_04: Doc Ellis was on a lot of drugs at the time.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, he didn't say he was high this time.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean he pitched the no-hitter on LSD, apparently, but I don't know.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_01: Any logic why you would just start beating people just to start?
1:07:21
SPEAKER_01: I I guess he was sending a message, I'm not sure.
1:07:26
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the end of the Cincinnati.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_01: There's one left here, and we're gonna stick in baseball, and I I feel rather passionately about this one, and um that would be Chung O Gong and the Takeout Slide by Chris Coglam of the Your Chicago Cubs.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_01: And I really this really like I never had an opinion on the Chicago Cubs until this happened, and I really cannot stand the Chicago Cubs still this day.
1:07:53
SPEAKER_01: Like, I hope they I I can't it it just rankled me to no end.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_01: It was if it would have been for Cleveland playing them, I would have been all in for whoever's playing them in that World Series, but it just had to be freaking Cleveland, and you know, they win their stupid little World Series.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, congratulations, you won World Series in a hundred years.
1:08:14
SPEAKER_01: The Pirates stole four more than you in those hundred years, so and they're the crappiest team.
1:08:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh okay, so so September 17th is really take a breath.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_01: Calm down, happy thoughts.
1:08:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, September 17, 2015, during a game against the Cubs.
1:08:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, they were they had a double play, and Chris Coughlin, who's a total bum, decides to slide in the center field and not second base.
1:08:41
SPEAKER_01: And if you watch the replay, his leg, his leg literally catches his knee.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_01: There's no attempt to slide, no nothing.
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: It's just totally let's injure somebody.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_01: And Kung O Gong, his left knee is totally messed up.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_01: He tears his MCL, he gets put up, he's done for the season, he missed the remainder of the year.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, the postseason and the wildcard game, which the pirates ended up hosting.
1:09:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Joe Madden in his genius, you know, play who just said, Oh, this is just hard, good old-fashioned baseball.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_01: I another bum, if there ever was a bum.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, it just total thuggery and ridiculousness and goonish.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_01: I did this is like something that should have been done in hockey.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny because here we'll we'll play the audio, but Chase Udley ends up doing the exact same thing, and it's funny.
1:09:32
SPEAKER_01: Baseball then changes the rules because this is still within the ground ball to second.
1:09:40
SPEAKER_08: And throw the first got him.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_08: Jung Hummel is hurting.
1:09:45
SPEAKER_08: Play is still alive by a takeout slide by Coglin.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_08: He went after John Hummel, and John Hummel got rolled over.
1:09:54
SPEAKER_08: And he ended up sliding awkwardly, but yeah, boy, he went right after his shit.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_01: But what what part of second base is in center field, Tim?
1:10:03
SPEAKER_01: I I just want to know.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_04: He didn't even touch second base.
1:10:06
SPEAKER_04: No, like it it it's yeah, I I I that was that was so unbelievably blatant.
1:10:13
SPEAKER_04: And and like you said, the just the hypocrisy of baseball where it's like they wait until somebody that they care about gets hurt, then they make a role change.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_04: Again, it's very similar to the NFL.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Chase Udley did it to Ruben Tejada of the Mets, and then the uh major baseball was like, oh, maybe we should change the rules.
1:10:30
SPEAKER_01: And what had happened was they had to play a rule called the neighborhood rule to to kind of avoid this, where okay, you're in the neighborhood of second, we'll consider you touching second.
1:10:41
SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like so.
1:10:43
SPEAKER_01: Once they bought instant replay, they had to get rid of that because now you actually have to go and touch second.
1:10:50
SPEAKER_01: So I guess you know it you can kind of blame instant replay.
1:10:53
SPEAKER_01: That's why he had to go touch second and throw to first.
1:10:57
SPEAKER_01: And the neighborhood rule is such a ridiculous rule, anyway.
1:11:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, oh well, I meant to go.
1:11:01
SPEAKER_01: You can say that anytime, you know.
1:11:03
SPEAKER_01: It's just it was too much of a judgment call.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_01: The better call is what they changed it to is you have to slide in the second, or you're just gonna be out.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_01: And they they did the same thing at home plate when a couple people got concussions.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh, Buster Posey got hurt, and once again, that's another it's a San Francisco big big team from a big city that and Buster Posey, everybody likes him.
1:11:26
SPEAKER_01: He got hurt, so you know, everybody got you know all up in arms.
1:11:30
SPEAKER_01: But and of course, Bob Nutting does nothing about this because he's Bob Nutting and he's too cheap and impotent to do anything about it.
1:11:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's just once again, you know, you need an owner to stand up for your players.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_01: And this literally effectively ended Chung-ho-Gon's career, and that's the saddest part is this guy was a good player and looked like he was gonna have some more good years, and then he started drinking and got some DUIs, and you know, you could say, well, maybe he's gonna do that anyway.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe if he's in baseball and not injured, uh, he doesn't do that.
1:12:03
SPEAKER_01: So if I ever see Chris Coughlin, I think he's a coach somewhere.
1:12:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna boo.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_01: If I'm at a game and he's there, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna boo him mercilessly.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't care if he's in the dugout.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_01: It is the and it's also like you you want to talk about institutional racism.
1:12:18
SPEAKER_01: How is that not racist?
1:12:19
SPEAKER_01: I how is that racist against Asian people?
1:12:22
SPEAKER_01: How is that not racist against I uh I it's like there's so many levels to this and so much crap that this is, and I'm I just it's number one, the pirates are small market, number two, they knew they could get away with it because Bob Nutting isn't gonna play.
1:12:37
SPEAKER_01: Number three, it's somebody, a player they don't really care about.
1:12:42
SPEAKER_01: It's just like if this would have been Andrew McCutcheon or any other player on the Pirates, they probably would have said something, but they didn't, and you know, poor Chung-O-Gong got hurt and he was he was really had a good season that year.
1:12:57
SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'm overestimating Chung-O'Gong's worth to the Pirates.
1:13:01
SPEAKER_01: What say you, Tim?
1:13:03
SPEAKER_04: Well, it was just even if he wouldn't have had a good season, it's still just it was totally unjust ending his season because you literally were just trying to kick him in the leg so that your guy at first phase would be safe.
1:13:17
SPEAKER_04: And that's you know, the takeout slide was supposed to be you slide in the second face and take out the guy in the process, but that's why Kanye had moved Rover so far off the bag to avoid that.
1:13:29
SPEAKER_04: And he sticks out his leg and takes out his knee.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I I don't know you can't get any more dirty than that, I think.
1:13:36
SPEAKER_04: And but it's baseball, and that's like you said, that was like, well, that's a that's a takeout play.
1:13:41
SPEAKER_04: That's been happening for years, and blah blah blah.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_04: So it's it's why they have to make rules around these things.
1:13:46
SPEAKER_04: They have to.
1:13:47
SPEAKER_04: Like player safety rules.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_04: And and even though baseball did it way too late and they did it for the wrong reasons, at least they did they made a role that's going to hopefully protect that kind of stuff in the future.
1:13:59
SPEAKER_04: If if there's anything good that came out of this, it was that.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Joe, I I didn't look up the Joe Madden.
1:14:05
SPEAKER_01: If you want to, you look up the Joe Madden coates, who was the manager of the Cubs, like justifying it.
1:14:10
SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't, I don't even think he had like it just the stuff he said, oh, it wasn't dirty, and it was just it was the most twisted logic ever.
1:14:19
SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, he was sliding, like everybody kept saying, oh, he was sliding in the second.
1:14:23
SPEAKER_01: Not unless second base is in center field.
1:14:26
SPEAKER_01: There's just no you watch that replay, it's intent to injure.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_01: That's everything.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_01: There the ball's gone.
1:14:33
SPEAKER_01: There's no there's just no logical reason to to do that.
1:14:38
SPEAKER_01: But hey, the Cubs got away with it and got awarded a World Series for their trouble.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_01: But yay, big market Chicago.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
1:14:46
SPEAKER_01: Chicago stinks again.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_01: Ha ha ha.
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: You uh they're like the Mets.
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: They spend billions of dollars every year and you don't win anything.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_01: So ha ha ha.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_01: At least we don't spend billions of dollars and don't win anything.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: So eat it there, Cubs fans.
1:15:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we just spend very little and don't win anything.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_01: And bring back players that are well past their prime, like Chapman and McCutcheon.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_01: Oh, both those guys were good like 10 years ago.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_01: But anyway, um, that's it.
1:15:17
SPEAKER_01: If there's any cheap shots I missed, or if you'd like to come take a chip cheap shot at me, um, go find Tim.
1:15:26
SPEAKER_01: But uh, you know, uh, thanks for tuning in.
1:15:28
SPEAKER_01: We really appreciate everybody listening.
1:15:30
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, email us if there's anything we missed, check us out at um our website, uh, you know, all the uh podcast streaming services you've been listening to.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_01: Just thankful for everybody listening and um God bless and uh have a great rest of your day.