Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 943: Did a 3-Year-Old Really Shoot Another Hunter?

Transcript

Ep. 943: Did a 3-Year-Old Really Shoot Another Hunter? · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the news show, everybody. This week, we've got
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: details about a youth turkey hunt shooting in which a
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: three-year-old shot another child. Coloradans will have a chance to
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: assert their American-ness on November 3. Those of you who
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: don't think you need help calculating your own ratios when
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: grinding burger actually do need help. And we're here to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: provide that help. We got snow goose news out of
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Maryland and elsewhere. The Posh Mountains. What was that, Yanni?
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I didn't say anything.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I thought he said something. Dude, I was getting people
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: hyped for the show. Now I'm like.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I literally just scratched my lip.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Now we lost the audience.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: Bring him back. Bring him back, buddy.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: The posh mountain town of Los Angeles, Pilates capital of America,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: where we're sitting right now, just lost 14 black bears
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: that the state had to euthanize because some dude was
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: running a seemingly non-hunting bait pile. That titillates him. And more.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: But first off, let's dig into the youth turkey tragedy
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: with the one and only Pat Durkin. Thanks for joining, Pat.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Well, you bet.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Steve. Can you quickly remind... We talked about this.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Can you quickly remind people at a very.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Give a very quick overview of what happened last spring
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: in terms of the initial news that came out. Just
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: like the basics with the ages. Because we commented on...
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the story, but all we had was some basic numbers.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: So can you recap those numbers? Sure.
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: This happened during the state's annual youth turkey season. It's
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: a two-day season that starts mid-April. It was done in
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: Racine County, which is just south of Milwaukee, and Racine
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: County also borders Lake Michigan. So it's really the far
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: southeastern county in Wisconsin. It happened on a public land,
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: about two square mile area. And it involved a deputy
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: with the Racine County Sheriff's Department. And he was, the
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: guy's 35 years old. And apparently he was mentoring, he said,
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: his three-year-old daughter.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't know that it was a daughter.
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: It was his daughter. And he was carrying.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: a 12 gauge shotgun and blind calling, just apparently walking
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: around calling. Um, he's never taken a hunter education course,
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: but he's a, he's a military veteran. And in Wisconsin,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: we exempt, um, veterans from needing to take, um, hunter education. Um, he, um,
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: he later told investigators, they really had not hunted much.
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: Before this incident.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: And he was usually hunting with his friends, but, um,
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: that day he was hunting by himself. He was also, um,
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: was another interesting thing about this is.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Well, Pat, can I, can I butt in real quick?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Do you mind just laying out, do you mind just
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: laying out the, just for people that haven't heard our
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: coverage before?
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Do you mind laying out the original story? Just the,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: the cleanest, most bare bones version of the original story
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: you can think of. Yeah. Which would be that a
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: three-year-old during youth turkey season. I'll do it. Then you
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: can dive in.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm asking for a second time.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, Pat.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: You do it. I see that anti-Pat Durkin sign behind him.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, Steve.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: But yeah, basically a man took his daughter out hunting.
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: She was being mentored.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: Apparently he, he lined the shot up and then had
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: her touch the trigger when he told her to shoot.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: And inadvertently, he had mistaken movement 40 yards away.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: For a turkey.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: And he ended up shooting a man who was there
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: mentoring his seven-year-old son. It turns out this man was
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: actually a co-worker, a fellow deputy in Racine County, the
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: Sheriff's Department. And the shot hit these guys pretty hard.
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: The man had his arm around his son, up like this,
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: apparently around his shoulders. And so that got caught some
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: of the shop, but the boy got, got the worst
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: of it. He took multiple shots, pellets into the head
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: and upper neck and back area and ended up in
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: the hospital for a few days. And later, like in June,
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: doctors removed every pellet they could from the boy, but
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: he still had had to this day has one pellet
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: in his brain, one pellet in his skull and one
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: pellet in his, in his spine. And the father, though,
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: is doing well. He had 12 pellet wounds, including some
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: in his arm and left hand.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: But basically, his left side of his body got hit.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: When this story was originally reported, for many months, the
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: only details that were out there was that a person
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: mentoring a three-year-old child, that the three-year-old child had shot
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: another pair of hunters. And then you've followed this story
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: and have uncovered these other details. Where did you learn,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: for instance? Well, we had this original question of how
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: capable is a three-year-old of even aiming a gun? And
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: we were even wondering, like, three-year-olds still... soil themselves on,
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: on a regular basis. So how is a three-year-old capable
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: of wielding a, was it a 12 gauge or 20
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: gauge shotgun?
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: Is it 12 gauge?
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: So how's a three-year-old even shooting a 12 gauge shotgun? Right. Well, where,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: where did you learn this detail that, that the mentor
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: was holding the shotgun and the kid's job was to
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: reach over and pull the trigger. And does that even warrant,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: does that even count as a mentored hunter?
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: Right. Well, this is where it gets really interesting, Steve,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: is that the state does not really specify what it
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: takes to be a mentor and what it takes to
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: be a mentored situation. And so like this case, it
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: said right in the initial report of the incident was
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: that the guy had rested the shotgun on a log
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: and he had aimed it and that his daughter was
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: then instructed to touch the trigger and basically triggered the
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: shot when he said so. And, you know, I'm like you,
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: I have grandkids, I've had my own daughters, and I
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: have a hard time understanding how any three-year-old would even
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: comprehend what they're even doing at that point.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, so are they, in this case, are they looking into,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: was that even, does that even count?
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, all the criminal complaint does is state
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: what the charges are. And this guy has been charged
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: with four felonies.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: Two felonies per victim. And it's basically, let me see,
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: just real quickly, it's second degree reckless injury with use
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: of a dangerous weapon and injury by negligent use of
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: a dangerous weapon. Two different counts, you know, one each for,
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: I mean, two each for these victims. And so the
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: guy's facing like up to $ 70, 000 in fines and up
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: to $ 42, 000 years in prison if the terms are all
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: laid out consecutively. So the state obviously is taking this
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: very serious.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: I also didn't know until you, it doesn't really change anything,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: but I didn't know until you just said it right
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: now that it was his daughter. I just had made this,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I had made this assumption. Yeah. Because 90% of hunters
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: are men. I'd made an assumption that it was his boy.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: Initially the, the, the, the department of natural resources said,
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: and local sheriff's department did not release details on gender
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: or names, of course. And so all we had at
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: first was that it was two people who had been
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: shot and you kind of assumed it was a father
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: and son who got shot and it's also shooting. But yeah,
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: as the case got explored and more information came out,
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: then we learned it was a daughter involved.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: And then in your reporting, you found out some details
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: that these, it's just crazy, but the shooter and the
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: victim were not strangers.
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: No, no.
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: You know, the initial report was that they, they assumed
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: these guys did not know each other, but then they
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: learned later that, um, actually they were colleagues, you know, that, um,
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: that the shooter had, had talked to his, his coworker,
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: a fellow deputy about places to hunt nearby. The guy
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: gave him some information, but asked him not to hunt
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: these spots. And I saw, I watched some of the
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: camera interviews they did with this guy that came out
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: when the criminal complaint was released. And it sounds like
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: he was under the assumption that this other guy and
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: his son had not stayed in the area that they
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: had left.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Okay. So this guy had shared information with them. They
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: knew each other. They had shared information, but they were
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: not out hunting together by any means. They would have
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: had no idea that each other was in the same area.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: Neither of those guys knew the other guy was anywhere
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: near them. The father and son were watching a field.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: They did not have any decoys out, but they were
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: calling occasionally. The father was calling occasionally. What I don't
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: know and isn't in any of the reports so far,
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: the criminal complaint is whether this guy sneaked in with
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: his daughter and set up on them, or if they
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: just happened to be sitting nearby and then spotted this
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: movement after the calling. Because apparently the shot went off
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: right after this father with his son had been calling
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: and had moved his hand. So I'm guessing he was
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: using like a slate call or a box call or something.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: He told investigators that when the shot happened, it was
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: just seconds after he had called. And he figures it
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: was his hand that was moving that got the guy's attention.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you hear these stories and you just can't make
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: any sense out of it. Here's a guy, assuming he
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: wasn't gobbling, assuming he wasn't gobbling.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Right, right.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: He's talking about using a slate call. This hunter is,
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, get in this guy's head a minute. This
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: hunter is hearing turkey noises. Not only does he think
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: he's aiming at the thing's head, but he's talked him
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: into self.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: I don't think he is thinking he's aiming.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: At the thing's head. He's also talked himself into thinking
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: that it's a gobbler, that it's a male turkey.
• 11:30
  Speaker 5: He's a very inexperienced hunter.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Our friend Robert Abernathy was shot while turkey hunting. The
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: man that shot him explained to him, when you put your...
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: Robert Abernathy, when he got shot by number five shot,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: he was sitting there looking down a hill and lifted
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: his foot up on a stump to kind of lean
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: into the stump. The guy that shot him explained, when
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: you lifted your foot on that stump, it looked just
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: like a gobbler going into strut. Oh.
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: Like people invent stuff in their brain.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: But what is this guy inventing in his brain? The
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: whole picture.
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: Well, it's a great question, Steve, because he did tell
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: these investigators that he thought he saw red and blue, apparently. And,
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: you know, they checked with these guys, the victims, and
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: neither of them was wearing anything red, blue, or white
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: to resemble a turkey's head. They were wearing camo, but
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: nothing that, you know, we're all taught in hunter education,
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: turkey education, never to wear red, white, or blue out
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: in the field during turkey season. But from what I
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: could gather watching this recorded interview with the guy afterward
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: by investigators, he claimed he saw these colors. But every
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: time you read about hunter accidents like this, the shooter
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: almost always builds things into the scene that just were
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: not there. They get excited and they see things that
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: really aren't there. And apparently the same thing happens in
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: police shootings where they Just see things that didn't. In
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: the moment, there is that stress, that buck fever, whatever
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: you want to call it.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: And it does work on people's imaginations.
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: Oh, yeah.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Because he heard the bird, even though he didn't hear
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: a gobbler. He heard a hen, most likely, calling.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: And then there was a flash of movement in the brush.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: And I still believe that he shot, and not his
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: three-year-old daughter.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: No, I believe that he... I would believe that.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: I would accept that he had her reach over and
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: punch the trigger.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: He had her positioned apparently like, you know, apparently like
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: in his lap, he was sitting there and had her
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: in the lap, but yeah, it says Reddit in every,
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: every report I've read on this, it says he aimed
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: the shot. You know, he had the, he had the
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: gun against his shoulder. Basically all she'd do is reach
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: up and put and pushed on the trigger.
• 14:13
  Speaker 6: Pat, is this deputy still working or has he been
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: suspended or fired?
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: He's on administrative leave.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: You mentioned early on there when I was trying to
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: squeeze out of you the basics that we had already
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: covered there. You were going down the path of mentioning
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: that he had an exemption from hunter safety.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: Can you explain that exemption?
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: This is, to me, one of the intriguing points of
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: the story because it's become kind of a little hot
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: button topic for the hunter education people in Wisconsin. Wisconsin
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: and 15 other states have had this exemption where if
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: a man or a person has served basic training in
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: the military, they exempt them from hunter education training. And
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: the hunter ed people I know who have contacted me
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: about this, They're really upset that Wisconsin ever gave that
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: exemption because they just don't think the basic training we
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: receive in the military qualifies anyone to go hunting.
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: There's just a.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: Whole different dynamic involved in teaching someone how to shoot
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: rifles and various weapons in the military compared to what
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: we see in military. hunting what we experienced out there
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: in the field.
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I think that it would cover, that is a weird
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: one to me. I think it was, I'm guessing that
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: it's motivated more by trying to do a solid for
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: veterans and help them, you know, and try to be
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: helpful to that community. But I would imagine, you've been
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: through bootcamp. I have not, but I'm guessing that bootcamp,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: they're assuming that you're learning some safe firearm handling practices. Right.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: But you're not learning. But but 90 percent of the
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: curriculum would have no business being in basic training. Right.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: When I think back, Steve, on this, like I was
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: I was in the Navy.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: My entire hands on work and basic training with firearms
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: was was toting around an A303 Springfield with a.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Piece of wood shoved down the barrel so it couldn't
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: be fired.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: And then one day we went to the training. We
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: shot 22 rifles for half the morning. And that was
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: our introduction to firearms. I never fired another gun in
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: the Navy until I was out on the ship. And
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: then maybe once a year we got to shoot our
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: M14s and maybe the old. 45 caliber handguns. But, you know,
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: there's nothing about things like checking your background and beyond.
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: It was all the basic hunter education stuff we all learn.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they're going to wind up revisiting that
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: because what you have then is you have a case
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: where it's like you have a double problem. I'm not
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: saying it's a problem that you have necessarily a problem
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: that you have a veteran who's skipped hunter safety out
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: in the woods, but all of a sudden they're in
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: a position of mentoring another person And you have like
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: a double layer of lack of training. Yeah.
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: To me, it's worth discussing because it just, I think
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: it was misguided. I think you're right that it's probably
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: just done as a solid. But gosh, you look at
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: how the situation unfolded and you can't help but think, well,
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: maybe this guy had a little background in hunter education,
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: which those of us who have taken that course in Wisconsin,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: it's pretty damn thorough. And it's nice things to stick
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: in your head. I guess I, you know, the one
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: thing I'd say too, is that I have a lot
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: more concern with that law, that exemption than I do with,
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: you know, like we changed our laws about 15 years ago.
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: First in 2009, they removed the 12 year old requirement
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: in Wisconsin. And then like eight years later, I think
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: they lowered it to 10, age 10. And then like
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: eight years later, they lowered it to where they just
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: got rid of it. Because like I say, 35 states
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: don't have a age requirement. And so these things are
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: so unusual with kids getting involved in these mentored shootings.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: It just seldom happens. I'm not really sure. I can
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: see where people get bothered by that and not having.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: A age requirement. I mean, I had an age requirement.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: But gosh, when you see something like this become, it's
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: so unusual.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: It made news.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: And when something makes news, It typically is something very uncommon.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: So I hate to see us always running around passing
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: laws every time one uncommon thing happens. Yeah, it's interesting.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: I've been philosophically supportive of abandoning the really strict age
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: requirement rules. When I was growing up in Michigan, you
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: had to be 14 to rifle hunt deer. I think
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. No one waited that long. I didn't wait
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: that long. We all started early. Everyone I knew started early. Uh,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: that's too much. Philosophically, I've supported abandoning age restrictions. If
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: I was going to be in charge of brokering a
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: national compromise and I had to pick a number, it's
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: going to make all kinds of people riled up. If
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: I had to pick a number and I was going
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: to set the standard for all 50 States, I would
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: say 10 years of age.
• 19:42
  Speaker 5: That's, that's what I would pick too.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I would go 10. and just be like, okay,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: we're going to settle it. All 50 states right now, wham, 10.
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: I feel like even at six or seven, kids just
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: don't yet know what they're actually doing.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: This is striking a national compromise. If I had to negotiate,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: I would go into the negotiation being, I'll settle at 10.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I'll settle at 10. So my opening bid might be like,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: how about eight? And they'd be like, no, you can't
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: do eight. And I'm like, okay, 10, and it's a
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: done deal. I would settle at 10.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Good job, Steve. Master negotiator.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Man, Pat Durkin, thanks for coming on.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: You bet, Steve.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Pat. I got to ask, there's an anti-Pat Durkin
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: sign hanging in the background there. Is that because of
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: deer politics, whitetail politics?
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: No, actually, that goes back to my very, very early
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: days as a sports writer in 1984. I was covering
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: a local semi-pro basketball team and I wrote some columns
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: that the fans didn't like. And so I got picketed
• 20:47
  Speaker 4: at one of the games.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: It had to be like six or eight people picketing me.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: And they even had little buttons made with that thing,
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: my picture on it saying, you know, basically get rid
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: of me. And how I came into possession of the sign, though,
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: One of my coworkers who was at the game, he
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: ran out to the hallway after they got done picketing me.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: And he walked up to this guy holding that sign
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: and says, I work with that guy. He's a real asshole.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Can I have the sign?
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: And then he brought up to me the next day
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: at my desk and I said, So I built a
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: frame for it and I've had it in my office
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: ever since.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Man, you got to give them credit for like the
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: civic engagement of that little town.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I'd ask you if I could have
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that when you die, but I don't want to wait
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: that long, man. That could be decades. That could be
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: 50 years.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Hey, Pat, before you send it, sign it too, would you?
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Anti-Pat Durkin. Signed by Pat Durkin.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: I used to have one of the buttons, too.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: You just put it on your sweater or jacket, but
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: I can't seem to find it lately.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Maybe one of my kids took it.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: All right, Pat.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: We all love you, man.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Well, thanks.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, dude.
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: You bet. See you around.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: All right, here's one. We got the meat grinding.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: Hold up.
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: We're supposed to wait for sound.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: We don't have a good sound. Oh, that's pretty good.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Is that a new one, Phil?
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: Nope.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Same one as always.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: That's not bad. Our news. Okay, so here's the other day,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: one of our guys, one of the eggheads upstairs here
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: at the office.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: He's not an egghead.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: One of the tech guys. He's a tech guy. I
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: got two tech issues lined up with him right now.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: A phone and a computer problem.
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: He's a get-after-it hunter, too, man.
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: Listen, I was joking, man. I know. He just told
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: me a great story about getting a cowlick with his
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: bone arrow. Anyways, I didn't mean to say that. I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: was joking. Great guy upstairs. Great guy upstairs came to
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: me and he says, Hey man, we just made a
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: ground meat, a meat grind calculator. And I said, what
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: kind of idiot needs that? He goes, well, what do
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you mean? And I said, well, I can just do
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: it in my head right now. And I realized that
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: for my entire life, I've done it wrong. Where if, if,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: I bet you that 99% of the people would make
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the same problem.
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: That's how I always do it.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: If I had 100 pounds, let's say I have 100
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: pounds of deer meat, and I want a 80-20 blend. Okay,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I want an 80-20 blend. I have 100 pounds of
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: deer meat. Well, any idiot would know that you put
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: in 20 pounds. He's like, but that's not right. That
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: gives you a 16.7% blend. I've been doing that my
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: entire life. Wow.
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have been easier for you if you
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: had just every time done 80 pounds of meat. You
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: got to think about the total.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: That's where I was off.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: But I was telling him how dumb he was to
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: make the calculator. Mm-hmm.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: No, so I'm looking at it right now. So if
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: you did 100 pounds of meat, it's really easy.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: You go there.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: You pick. what percentage you want.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: He's on the meat eater.com, the meat grind calculator. Yeah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Or you can go custom your ratio. And I did
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: this to figure out what Steve's was when he did
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: a hundred pounds of meat and he added 20 pounds
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: of fat. This says 20.5 gets you 17%. Okay. So
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: most of us, if we're doing it this way, you're
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: light on the fat. If you want a 20%, uh,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: fat ratio, you'd go 100 pounds of meat, you'd put
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: in 25 pounds of fat.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: God, man, I'm going to have to use this calculator.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: You go on this calculator, how does it work?
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: You're going to have juicier burgers, buddy.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: You're going to be blown away. You pick your percentage
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: you want.
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: You do 10% if you want lean, 15% lean burger, 20% classic, 30% sausage,
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: or you can do a custom mix. Then you either
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: give them your amount of meat or your amount of fat.
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: Then it could work it backwards or however you need it.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: What a great little tool. And the graphic is a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: meat grinder. That's got, that's got spent. That's got Hunter
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: Spencer written all over it. The graphic is a meat grinder.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: It has like a calculator face on it. Very clever.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: The meat grind calculator. Good job. Yeah.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: We'll all be using that this fall.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: That was a good little tool. Just to think I've
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: been eating dry ass burger without even knowing it. What
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: probably happens, I feel that my burger is perfect. So
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: when I use that calculator from now on. Too much
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: fat in here. I'm going to type in 16.7%.
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: You might develop heart problems now that you're getting more.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Dude, that's a great calculator. Oh, so remember when Khrushchev,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: do you guys remember when Khrushchev addressed the United Nations?
• 25:56
  Speaker 5: These guys don't.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: No.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I do. What was being addressed?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know. He's mad about being in the Soviet Union.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Hated America.
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: He was the last of the Cold War guys.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Pull it up, Phil. This is so long ago, it's
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: in black and white. Type in Khrushchev beating his... He
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: got so mad addressing the United Nations. You finding it?
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: He got so mad he took his shoe off.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, there's a Wikipedia article about it. Go on.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: It's called the shoe banging incident. Yes. So mad. He
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: took his shoe off and beat the podium. Can you
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: pull it up, Phil?
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry, one sec here.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he's mad about the Cold War. I'm guessing.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I don't think it was like... He's mad at his
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: wife or something. He's probably mad about the Cold War.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested to see how you're going to segue this.
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: Well, he already did.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Did he?
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a way. So I always.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: No, that's not it, Phil. That's some guy cleaning a retainer.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: It's not Khrushchev. Here he is.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Look at him.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: So there's Khrushchev. He's doing the Soviet thing.
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: There he is.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: There he's got his shoe. That's how pissed he is.
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: Look at the other guys laughing at him. Except you're
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: not pissed, you're excited.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: He means business. Yeah, but people don't know when I'm
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: always sitting here is I run around in Hey Dude shoes.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: My normal ones, my old ones are very dirty, but
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I got these brand new ones. If you're in the
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: market for some Hey Dude shoes, we got these new
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: ones out. You get a first light pattern on there.
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: Two versions of them.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Two versions. This is the one I wear all the time.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: The first pair I ever got, Jason Phelps bought them
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: for me as a present because I was admiring his.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: This is years ago.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: Nice guy. It's a nice gesture. It's an affordable shoe.
• 28:00
  Speaker 5: That's the shoe version and then there's a slipper version.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Then there's an insulated slipper like a camp shoe. Pretty sweet.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: You can get them, but you can't get them quite yet.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen Randall take his off. I think he
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: sleeps in them. Dude, I wear mine all the time.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: I like them. When you get out of the woods,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: you take your boots off. I just wear them to
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: work anyway. They're so lightweight, I always stick them in
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: my bag. I've always been a big fan And wear
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: them all the time. So when we got a chance
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: to put First Light Camel on Hey Dude Shoes, I
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: was all over it. These are the Wally Funks. But
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: we also got the Slip Camp. It's like an insulated
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: one you slip into when it's cold out. Hanging around
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Deer Camp.
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: I'll be taking those next week.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: You can't get them yet, though. You gotta wait till
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: October 13th. But it's a limited run. If you go
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: to the Meat Eater store, you'll find these shoes. And
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: then when you get mad at someone, you can take
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: it off and be like, That's not what I meant.
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: Yanni shot my buck.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Shut up, Yanni. Stuff like that. October 13th. Heydude.com and
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: the meat eater store you can find them at. Okay,
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: moving on. Oh, your news. Brought to you by Banish. Suppressors,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: which I'm holding in my hot little hand right here.
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: Steve's going to have to take his shoe off for
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: this one.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I am going to get that. I might
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: double do it.
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: Last week we— Khrushchev, I don't know.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: If he ever got so mad he took both his
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: shoes off, but I can see.
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: You're about to. Yeah, last week we talked about the
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: guy in Wyoming who shot a bull grizzly. He left
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: it overnight. A grizzly ate a little bit of it,
• 29:43
  Speaker 5: came back, cut the head off, took the head, left
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: the meat because he's worried about the grizzly.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: And Brody's a big supporter of this guy.
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: Listen, I understand why he did what he did. You
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: weren't there. You didn't hear the debate.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: I said the guy screwed up.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: We debated it a minute ago.
• 30:00
  Speaker 5: He weren't there for the whole conversation.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Anyway. Who was there? Can someone recap? Was Brody, like,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: as apologetic on the original? Go on. I wasn't there.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not ready to opine yet. My shoes are on.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: Anyway, we had a game ward not from Wyoming write
• 30:18
  Speaker 5: in about his take on this thing.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Can you tell the story, please?
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: Sure.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I know people already heard it, but just quickly tell.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: The story again.
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: I'll give the quick version. Last year in September, a
• 30:31
  Speaker 5: guy was elk hunting, archery elk hunting outside of Cody,
• 30:35
  Speaker 5: Wyoming in a very grizzly infested area. He shot a
• 30:41
  Speaker 5: bull elk in late afternoon.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: The bull walked off about 100 yards. They were in
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: a pretty open area. They watched it lay down. It
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: was late afternoon. They kept their eye on it until dark.
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: And then they were like, don't know if it's dead
• 30:57
  Speaker 5: or not. We're going to back out and come back
• 31:00
  Speaker 5: in the morning.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, can I ask a clarifying question?
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to opine. Yes, you will. No. As
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: you and I have discussed this.
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I've heard two explanations for his thinking.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: And this is an important point. The telling you just did,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: he was doing more of a, it's hitting the guts.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: It's laid down. I don't want to bump.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: It.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: It'll die if I back off. But in the other tellings,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: when we've talked about this privately, you've said, i don't
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: want to go you said that he thought i don't
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: want to go in there because of grizzly.
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: No grizzlies were deaf like he said grizzlies were deaf
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: they didn't want to necessarily mess with it at night.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: But this is because then spencer's giving me a lecture
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: what every deer hunter knows no i was waiting till
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: the next day to pursue a gut shot deer and
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: i'm like i could see four hours.
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: I listen I think it's a legitimate concern to that
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: when you're done, Brody, go ahead. There's a legitimate concern
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: of bumping the elk. There's a legitimate concern of getting
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: attacked by a grizzly or a grizzly getting killed, which
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: is also a gigantic headache. Like the guy's concerns, I
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: think were legitimate.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I told you I'm not going to opine.
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: I know what you can opine after I read, can
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: I read this or do you got something to say, Spencer?
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: This is all background.
• 32:26
  Speaker 6: Uh, Steve was saying before the show, he said, I
• 32:29
  Speaker 6: didn't even finish the story. Who leaves a deer overnight
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: or who leaves an elk overnight? And I was like,
• 32:33
  Speaker 6: that's very common.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: I told you. It's the majority of people that don't
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: care about the well-being of the meat.
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: Except you left one overnight.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Depends. You did.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: You left an elk overnight.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Not when I can see it laying there.
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: But anyway.
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: To respond to Steve saying, who on earth does this?
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: This is a common practice. The national deer association says
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: you hit one in the guts with a bow. You
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: wait 12 hours. A bow hunter magazine says eight to
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: 12 hours. The meat eater.com says eight to 12 hours.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: Well, that, that person's not going to be working here
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: in a couple of hours. We need to move on.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Let me finish.
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: It's just a thing that said, it's a thing that's done.
• 33:16
  Speaker 6: People leave deer overnight when they have a marginal.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Hit because they don't want to looking at it. It's dark.
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: It's like, it gets dark.
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: You should see my, my flashlight. I would have gone
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: every couple hours, shined over, picked up its eye shine.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: There's there's it's good. It's heads up. Let's hang tight.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Another hour later, little eyes shine. Take a nap. Wake up.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Little eyes shine.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Take a nap.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Wake up. Oh, he's dead.
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: Let's do this after I read it. But first, I
• 33:45
  Speaker 5: got to finish the story. He comes back the next
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: morning with some buddies, pistols drawn. The elk is dead.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Why are their pistols drawn?
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: Because they're just being ready.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: They're paranoid.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: We went in pistols drawn to my moose.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: That makes sense. Anyway. That's a good point. But that
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: was a different situation.
• 34:12
  Speaker 5: Anyway, they get to the bull. It's obvious there's been
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: a bear on it eating it. The guts are ripped out.
• 34:20
  Speaker 5: There's bear shit all over the place. This man decides
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: to leave the carcass, cuts the head off, takes it out.
• 34:29
  Speaker 5: Just the head.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: No back straps. No meat.
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: No nothing. And doesn't report this to the fishing game department. Now,
• 34:39
  Speaker 5: let's move on to the letter.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I don't opine yet. No.
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: Let me get through the letter.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: How was he caught? Wow.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: I think you do have to explain that part of
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: the story.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: So there's a carcass laying there. On his way out,
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: he lets some cowboys know that there's a grizzly on
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: a carcass. that has eaten some of his elk. There's
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: a carcass up there. Stay away from it. Later, I
• 35:05
  Speaker 5: don't know how many days later, probably not far, some
• 35:09
  Speaker 5: hunters come across this carcass, headless, which looks very suspicious.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Sure it does.
• 35:16
  Speaker 5: They report that to a game warden. The game warden
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: follows up. He ends up talking to this guy. He
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: takes the guy's, I think, his bow. He confiscates it.
• 35:28
  Speaker 5: the meat or the head and the antlers. And this
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: guy eventually goes to court. The game warden cites him.
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: He goes to court and fights the citation and gets
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: out of the citation. This is where we're at now.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: In court? Yes. A six-person jury.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: What?
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Everybody's paranoid down there.
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: And one of the reasons why is because Wyoming advises
• 35:54
  Speaker 5: not to mess with.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: Don't opine yet. Okay, I got to get to this letter.
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: This is the reason we're here right now. Okay, a
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: game warden wrote in. He's not from Wyoming. He's just
• 36:07
  Speaker 5: giving a game warden's perspective. Good morning, Brody. Just listened
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: to your story from the new show about the hunter
• 36:13
  Speaker 5: abandoning his meat that a grizzly had claimed. I can't
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: speak for Wyoming, but I thought I'd offer you some
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: perspective from a game warden's point of view. I understand
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: and agree with the hunter leaving the bull overnight. I
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: can also understand leaving the elk once he saw a
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: bear had claimed it. But there are several things he
• 36:33
  Speaker 5: did or didn't do that make a game warden question
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: his actions. Number one, he took the time to cut
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: the head off the elk and take that. He didn't
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: take the time to get any of the meat. He
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: questioned whether it would be salvageable due to being contaminated
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: by the bear. Surely there were parts the bear didn't touch.
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: Sounds like there was a group of guys with him.
• 36:55
  Speaker 5: Several could have stood guard while he salvaged what meat
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: he could. Then get the head last, which is getting
• 37:01
  Speaker 5: the head last. I know in this state it's a rule, right?
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: Pack the head out last.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: That's a rule in Alaska. You can't move the, all
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: the meat has to move before the trophy.
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: That's my biggest problem with the whole thing, he says.
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: He made note to tell several people in the area
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: there was a grizzly on a carcass, but he never
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: reached out to Game and Fish. That should have been
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: his first call. Now Game and Fish gets a call
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: about a headless elk, a call that could have been
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: headed off, but a game warden is thinking that this
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: is poached or someone didn't care to get the meat
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: because they were too lazy to pack it out. Sure,
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: there would have been bear sign at the carcass when
• 37:38
  Speaker 5: he got the call, but at that point there's no
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: telling when the bear found the carcass. Now the game
• 37:43
  Speaker 5: warden has to use his time and resources to track
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: this guy down. When he does, the guy says, well,
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: a bear claimed the carcass, so I just took the antlers. Uh-huh, right.
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: There were just too many fishy things going on with
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: this case. What he's saying is that the game warden
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: was justified in issuing a citation. Um, I also understand
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: that Wyoming has a warning about carcasses that have been
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: claimed by Grizzlies, but that warning should come with a
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: caveat of an immediately report to Game and Fish. I
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: feel that Game Warden was justified in writing the citation.
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: And I also agree with the defendant's right to take
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: it to court. And in this case, he won. We
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: write citations to correct the behavior. And I feel like
• 38:27
  Speaker 5: this hunter will correct his behavior.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: In the future.
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: Lessons learned, but calling in and being honest is always
• 38:34
  Speaker 5: the best avenue to take. Do you need a drum
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: roll for this?
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: No, because he made all the points. I was gone,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: so I wasn't here for that recording of the news show,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: or I would have got this all off my chest earlier.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: I'm sure this guy, he's probably a nice guy. I'm
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: sure he's, I don't know. Give me the bend for
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: the doubt. Probably a great guy. Probably loves his children.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Loves his country. Like, all that stuff. Likes help. I'm
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: not saying something bad should happen to him. I'm attacking
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: the logic. I don't want to attack an individual that
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I understand where he came from. There's just,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: like this guy said, though, there's some things that strike
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: me as being very, very fishy. We were in a
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: situation before where we actually had got assaulted by a bear.
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: I know, we kind of alluded to that last week.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: In that situation, had we said, let's just grab the
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: antlers and go. Someone might have been like, why don't
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: you just say, let's just grab a big back strap.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Why not grab a back leg and go? Why is
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: it that you're going to grab and go?
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: Sure, but you were also told that there's like a
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: very good chance that a grizzly is going to claim.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: And they were right. Yep. And they were right. But
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: getting attacked by a bear didn't then, we didn't then
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: take that to mean, let's just grab the antlers and
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: get out of here. No, no. We grabbed the whole
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: damn thing and got out of there.
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: Yep.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: I think you've got to... Why is it that there was...
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Why is it that you had the wherewithal, you got
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: guys with guns, you got the wherewithal to go remove
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: the head, but you don't have the wherewithal to go
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: remove any of the parts? He was.
• 40:22
  Speaker 5: This is what he said. Again, you weren't here. He
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: said he was... Before any of this stuff had happened,
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: another game warden had advised him not to take meat
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: from a carcass that a grizzly had claimed because of Urine, feces, saliva,
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: like contamination. That's what he said.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: A guy told him that? What are the odds he
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: had that conversation?
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: I'm just saying, he said an old game warden told
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: him that.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: An old game warden sat him down and said, just apropos.
• 40:54
  Speaker 5: I'm just telling you what he said.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Case never comes up.
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: I don't know if that's the case, if that's what
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: he said.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to beat the table with a shoe
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: or something about it. It just feels very, very fishy
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: It looks fishy too.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: The other part that feels very fishy to me, if
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: he viewed it as this great travesty that he was
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: not able to get his elk meat and was somehow
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: only able to get the antlers, also the same guy,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: it begs the question, how in the world would that
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: have struck you as a thing that you weren't gonna
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: bother telling anybody about? Yeah.
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure. And we talked about that last week.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: He was either making a mistake or he was just trying.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: To get out of there. Being fishy. That seems like
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the biggest error in this. Where he's like, hey, I
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: got the part I wanted anyway. I got the part
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: I wanted. I'm good. Now I don't gotta mess with
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: all the hassle of dealing with it. elk carcass i'm
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: trying to talk my wife into cooking it.
• 42:11
  Speaker 6: As to why you would leave an animal die if
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: if someone is listening back on this now why would
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: you what steve you were you were adam you're like
• 42:18
  Speaker 6: nobody leaves a critter lay overnight no don't put words
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: in my mouth okay you tell me your words he's
• 42:23
  Speaker 6: looking at it i'm not even defending this specific situation
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: okay i'm.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Not talking about other situations we're talking about this situation.
• 42:30
  Speaker 6: But you said the only person who would leave something
• 42:32
  Speaker 6: late overnight, they don't care about the meat. That was
• 42:35
  Speaker 6: a declaration you had made.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. He's looking at it. Again. I'm talking
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: only about this situation. Yes. Okay. I could see a
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: situation where you knew you had a really bad hit
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: on something. I could see a situation, depending on the
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: weather as well, which would factor in my calculation, if
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: it was getting down to 20 degrees at night. Yep.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: I Googled it for this day. He was hunting.
• 42:59
  Speaker 6: It says the lows were in the mid forties to
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: low fifties around Cody, Wyoming.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Okay. That would have factored in many things would factor
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: into the situation. I'm only speaking to a situation where
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: there it is. I can see it. Right. In other situations,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: I would say, I wouldn't say I want to pull
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: back and go back to camp to let it die.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: And he's like, and also I'm scared of grizzlies, so
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: that's also going to encourage me to go back to camp.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: I would sit there saying, I'm going to pull back,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: but because of the risk of losing it to grizzlies,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: I'm going to linger here. check it with my spotlight.
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: And there's things you could do.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: You can monitor the situation.
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: If it, if you knew it was dead, you could
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: go build a great big fire and.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Just do all the things you do, make all kinds
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: of noise, make a big fire and hollering.
• 43:55
  Speaker 5: One thing that this, before we go on this, if
• 43:58
  Speaker 5: there are game wardens out there who know the answer
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: to this question, and I'm sure they do, this is
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: something Steve and I were talking about. Is it, Is
• 44:08
  Speaker 5: it legal to dispatch a wounded animal that's not going
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: where it's laying there, wounded, but it's not dead? Is
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: it legal to dispatch an animal after legal shooting light?
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because this is a great question. Let me tell
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: you a story I just heard. I just heard a
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: story about some hunters where they had gotten a bad
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: hit on a deer. They came back at night to
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: track the deer. They had a dog. The dog got
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: onto the wounded deer. Somehow chased the deer out into
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: a creek or pond, I'm not sure, but the deer's
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: now out in the water with the dog. In the
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: beam of a flashlight, a kid, the kid that shot it,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: in the beam of a flashlight, hits the deer out
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: in the water and kills it.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: With a gun.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: With a bow. With a bow. Yep, sorry. I initially
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: thought they meant with a gun. Takes his bow and.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Smokes it in the head on the beam of a
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: flashlight with a dog on the deer got in trouble
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: for this for shooting it with the artificial light now
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: here's where this is like a huge i think this
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: is a very interesting gray area in wildlife law if
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: you look at legal method to take Legal method of
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: take would not be a knife. Most states, it would
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: be illegal to jump out of a tree and kill
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: a deer with a knife. It's not a legal method
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: of take. They'll spell out archery equipment, right? Center fire firearms, right?
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Like a rim fire, not a legal method of take.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: A knife, a spear, not a legal method of take.
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: Or even if you were archery hunting and had a
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: pistol and you finished it off with a pistol.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: I would never do that. I know, I'm just... But
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: this is all great questions. Because let's say... and I've
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: done this and I would continue to do this. Even
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: if I knew it was illegal, you catch up to
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: something that's wounded and you cut its throat. You've now
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: killed the deer with, with not a legal method to take,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: or you catch up to it and you do just
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: like what I'm talking about. You take a flashlight and
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: you're like, shit, there he is. Get another air window. Yep.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: You get an air window and kill it. It's so weird.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: I get it, but it's so weird to be like,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: you just broke the law.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: Who would write these tickets though?
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: I've cut deer's throats before.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Illegal method of take. Well, the first deer I ever got,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: like I was telling you, you always hunted before you
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: were allowed to, back when I was 14. I shot
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: a deer when I was 13 in.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: Michigan.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: I shot it. It jumped up. I jumped on it,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: tackled it, cut its throat. That would have been absolutely
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: illegal method of take. But no game warden would write
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: you a ticket for finishing a deer off with a knife. No.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: No, as long as... I think it's there because it's
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: the slippery slope of, you know, if it's not written
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: in there, then it gives people the opportunity to, at
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: 2 o'clock in the morning, be out there shooting deer
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: under lights. And as long as they're not caught, you know,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: doing it in the act, they can be like, oh, no.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Finishing them off.
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just out here finishing these three off, you know?
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Right? I got it.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: So....
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: It has to be there. And it will probably be
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: this gray area for some time to come.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I would love to hear a couple game warden perspectives. Yeah. Like,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: there's extreme versions. And maybe an extreme version is, hold
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: on a minute, your dog is not that wounded.
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: And your dog has it out in the water. Yeah.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: And it's like getting away. And you smoke it with
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: an arrow under a flashlight. That feels to me like
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: not That sort of tips into a weird area.
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: Then there's the one that's laying on the ground, like wheezing,
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: you know, like it's not going anywhere.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: It'd be very interesting.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: And again, just like that warden said too, the thing
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: to do is call and let the warden know. So
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: if you're going to all of a sudden fire a
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: high caliber rifle two hours after legal shooting light ends
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: at a deer that's on the ground wheezing, and there's
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: going to be a gunshot that goes off two hours
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: after legal shooting light, Call the warden. If you can.
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: There's a lot of places you're not going to be
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: able to.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: Sure. But you can make your best effort to be like,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: hey man, just in case you get a call about
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: one single shot at 10 p.m. when it got dark
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: at 7.30.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's funny too because I would never If
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: we were bow hunting and we went out at night
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: to look for something, you definitely bring your bow. Yep. Sure.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: Because you're like, well, shit, I don't know what's going
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: to happen. I have to finish it off. If someone said, well,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to grab my pistol. I'd be like,
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: no way, dude. It's bow season. Exactly. But I would
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: never factor in the artificial light.
• 49:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: As to why someone would let one lay, though, for
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: like 12 hours, if you're not familiar with archery hunting.
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: Like, there's a chance you bump that deer, and he
• 49:11
  Speaker 6: runs off, and you never find him now. Ideally, you
• 49:14
  Speaker 6: can let them die in their first bed or their
• 49:15
  Speaker 6: second bed, uh and and you're just upping your odds
• 49:18
  Speaker 6: by letting them slowly expire in their bed rather than
• 49:21
  Speaker 6: chasing after them and now they've ran two more miles
• 49:24
  Speaker 6: away and and you just can't find them anymore.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Look me in the eye once again yeah that's not
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: what i'm talking about I hear you. I hear you.
• 49:36
  Speaker 6: You didn't even know the 100-yard detail until we started,
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: until like five minutes ago.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Before the show, you're like, people don't leave deer lay overnight.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: That's not what I meant. Okay.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: Let's move on.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: You're right. Listen, you're right. You're right. Thank you.
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: I feel much better now. Yeah, I was. Okay.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: Wonderful.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: But now we got to fire Mark Kenyon. So that's
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: too bad. He's got to take the hit here. Well,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: the 8-12 hour recommendation... You know him better. Do you
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: mind letting him know? I'll let him know. I'll tell
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: him to keep showing up anyway, though. I think Steve
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: will forget about it. Let's just hope it blows over,
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: but it sounds like you're fired.
• 50:18
  Speaker 5: On to the news.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Here's an interesting one. I just got this.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Thumbing through stuff I thumbed through, and I saw that Maryland...
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I'm mainly talking about this story because it was a
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: side story, but that Maryland... Let me put my spectacles
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: down here. What are you laughing about?
• 50:44
  Speaker 5: It's a side story.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, the side story is the best. That's why I
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: brought this up.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Here's a headline.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Waterfowl hunting schedule confirmed after federal light... Trust me, I'll
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: explain all of this. But here's the headline. Waterfowl hunting
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: schedule confirmed after federal light goose conservation order paused for
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: 26-27 season. As a little background. People who pay attention
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: to wildlife politics, wildlife news, know that snow goose populations
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: were quite low. in the 60s and 70s, and then
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: due to changing agricultural practices and the changing of some
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: things that are not even well understood, snow goose populations
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: just exploded. Most people think that snow goose populations were
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: driven by, again, changes in agricultural practices, grain prices, more
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: changing agricultural harvest schedules, the way grain is harvested, where
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: we basically created a bunch of snow goose wintering habitat.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: You might say, well, why is that a problem? That
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: became a problem because snow goose numbers, it wound up
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: being that the limiting factor on snow goose numbers was
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: winter habitat. So as farming practices created more and more
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: and more snow goose habitat, snow geese started to greatly
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: degrade their nesting habitat in the Arctic. So in an
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: effort to conserve Arctic nesting habitat, states took a lot
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: of steps to increase snow goose harvest. And out of
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: this came some snow goose hunting practices that in previous
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: generations would have been regarded as deeply taboo. Most people
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: out there will know that when you're hunting snow ducks
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: or geese or migratory waterfowl, you need to put a,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: you need to put a plug in your gun so
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: that the gun can hold a maximum of three shells.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: So two in the tube, one in the chamber, if
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: it's a slide action or a semi-auto, right? Maximum of
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: three shells counting the chamber. Um, when you're hunting big game,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: generally you're allowed to hunt 30 minutes after legal sunset
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: and waterfowl, you always have to quit at legal sunset. Um,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: People know that like when you're calling geese, calling ducks,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: normally you have to use a mouth blown call. You
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: can't use an electronic caller. People are accustomed to very
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: tight bag limits. Like maybe you're allowed two geese or
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: three geese or four geese, right? To lower snow goose numbers,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: all that stuff went out the window. And they started
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: these crazy snow goose seasons where there was no limit
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: on snow geese. Or you're allowed 25 snow geese a day.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: You were allowed to put extended magazines on guns. We're
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: here that you get videos of guys shooting snow geese
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: where the magazine is longer than the barrel on the shotgun.
• 53:59
  Speaker 5: Spring seasons, too.
• 54:01
  Speaker 6: This has been most of my life. I've only ever
• 54:04
  Speaker 6: known snow goose hunting as what you're describing.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: You've only ever known the good times. Electronic callers. That
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: you could sit multiple electronic callers out in the field
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: playing the noise of a huge flock of snow geese.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: That you're hunting them in the spring. You're hunting ducks migrating. Geese. Sorry.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: Normally you're hunting geese and ducks migrating south in the
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: fall and winter season. They're opening up seasons all through
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: the central flyway. Somewhere in the Atlantic flyway. You're hunting
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: returning geese. You're hunting them on the way down, you're
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: hunting them all winter long, and you're hunting them on
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: the way back in an effort to lower these goose numbers.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Most guys that are participating in these crazy snow goose
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: hunts aren't even really aware of, I would guess, aren't
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: really aware of degraded Arctic nesting habitat. Maybe most of
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: them don't really care about degraded Arctic nesting habitat, but
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: it created this snow goose bonanza. If you go look online,
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: you'll find videos where guys are dumping hundreds of snow
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: geese off bridges. And you'd go to popular snow geese
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: hunting areas, and people would have photos, I've seen them,
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: where there are islands of dead snow geese. Because guys
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: are just killing them and dumping them. Dumpsters full of
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: dead snow geese. Landfills covered in dead snow geese. From
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: people like, the Bonanza is so big that they're violating
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: the wanton waste laws. It was the Wild West. So
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: an important distinction here is in the Atlantic Flyway, you
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: have the greater snow geese. And these things are big.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: And then in the Central Flyway, you have the lesser
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: snow geese. Well, Maryland and other Atlantic Flyway states are
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: just now starting to reverse some of these. They're starting
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: to tighten some of the bonanza back down. Let me
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: pull this up here from Max. Bear with me a minute.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: Not as organized as I would like to be. Our
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: resident duck expert, Max Bartum. I said to him, like,
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: tell me your thing. What are you thinking when you
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: look at this? Like, help me interpret this. Max Bartum says,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: here's my thoughts. He points out the main concerning thing
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: about this is that the Atlantic greater snow goose population
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: is has been declining for years. They think that last
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: year alone, they lost 200,000 Atlantic greater snow geese to
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: avian influenza.
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: That's what I was going to ask about.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: It wound up being that it's not, like, if they're
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: getting that number under control, it's not because of the
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: crazy hunting. The number's dropping from the avian influenza. And
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: he points out that they're talking about pausing. They're talking
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: about pausing the thing, but they're only just adjusting a
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: couple things. They're still hunting them in March, right? And
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: this article even points out that greater snow geese on
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: the Atlantic flyway are now at or below the conservation
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: threshold they'd like to see. So that leads to the question,
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: why in the world are they still killing them in March?
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Because they're only changing a handful of these regulations.
• 57:53
  Speaker 5: What's interesting to me is like these are, like waterfowl
• 57:58
  Speaker 5: is like top level managed by the feds, right? So
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: states are free to change their own waterfowl regulations?
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: No, it's a flyway thing. It's a flyway issue.
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a flyway issue. Snow geese seem to still
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: be doing good, though. Central flyway, 100%. This flyway, not.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Here's a sentence from this thing, or a passage. The
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: Light Goose Conservation Order is a management tool authorized by
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and has been used
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: to reduce and stabilize populations of light geese. which include
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: greater and lesser snow geese and Ross's geese since 2010. However,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: here's the thing. So the Atlantic Flyway is the greater. However,
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: greater snow geese are now at or below the management
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: plan's population goal. Maryland and the other states in the
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Atlantic Flyway, a major bird migration route on the East Coast,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: have elected to pause the light goose conservation operation order
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: for the 2026-2027 season. Barely. If they were really, like,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: I don't get. If they were really serious about this.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: No, because it's like at or below population levels, right?
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: So if it's at. then everything's perfect. So if they're
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: slightly at or below, I'm guessing in their heads, they're like,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: it can still sustain this hunting. It can't sustain this hunting.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but what I'm afraid of here is they're not factory. Okay.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: The Atlantic greater goose population right now is sitting at
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: roughly 450 to 500,000 birds. They just lost 200,000 to
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: avian influenza. Avian influenza has not gone away. Meanwhile, the
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: Central Flyway lesser snow goose population sits at 8 million.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: If you've got greater snow geese in the Atlantic Flyway
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: at around 500,000 and you just lost 200,000 to avian
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: influenza and you're pausing the conservation order as a couple
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: modest tweaks and you're still shooting them all through the
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: winter and through March, I just think that it feels
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: to me a little... courting disaster. Yeah.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: Is it possible that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service could, like,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: do they supersede Maryland, like Maryland? If they said, you can't.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: Do this anymore. Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: It's through a flyway council. All the states, the feds
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: all come in. There's even interplay with Canada and Mexico
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: on the whole thing. I just saw when I thought,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: when I saw the headline, I thought, oh, wow.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: They're doing away with all the crazy slaughter hunts.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: Because geese numbers are so low. And I read it
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh wow, geese numbers are really low.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: And then I'm reading it and I'm like, but they're
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: not really doing away with the crazy slaughter hunts.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 6: My read would be the same as Yanni, that despite
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 6: all that, they're still very bullish on snow geese being okay.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: Max says the new rules accomplish little. Perhaps saving a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: roost or two from being jumped. Yeah.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 6: It does feel like, again, the first time in my
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 6: lifetime that this has gone the other direction for snow geese.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: It's always been the gloves are off.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Like, get them. The only thing they've done, just to
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: be clear, here's the only thing they've done. They've said, okay,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: now instead of no limit, the limit is 25. And
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: now instead of being able to shoot a half hour
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: past sunset, you can only shoot till sunset. That is
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: the response to it being at objective, having just lost
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: a couple hundred thousand birds to avian influenza. Now for
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: my Maryland story. Right when this started to blow up,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: so this would have been back in, I know, yeah,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: this would have been in 2010 when this whole thing
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: started to blow up. I go down with my buddy Ronnie,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: and we go down. I can't even remember how it happened.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Me and him and another buddy of ours went down
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: to do a big snow goose hunt with a guide.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: And the guide had one of those dogs. This is
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: the problem with some labs. They're human shit eaters. I
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't aware of this. It's an issue.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: Ask Max.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's all kinds of things on the internet to
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: fix it, like feed them bananas.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 6: I'm aware of, like, coprophagia, but I didn't know it could, like, humans.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: They'll be like, yeah, give me the human stuff, too.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: There are. It's a problem among labs.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: I have this on good authority from Max, who in
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: addition to knowing more about ducks and geese than I'll,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: knowing more now at his young age about ducks and
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: geese than I'll ever know.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: He knows more about labs than I'll ever know. I
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: had one for 13 years. They have a human shit
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: eating problem.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: So picture this. This ties into Maryland. We're all in
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: layout blinds, which really restrict your movements when you're in
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: a layout blind.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 5: You can shoot your toe off.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: This guide goes off and takes a growler in the windrow.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: All right? All of a sudden, here's the dog running around,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: having consumed those human feces. Even to the point, you're
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: going to think I'm lying, but I'm not. Ask Ronnie.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: Even to the point where the dog is trailing the
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: toilet paper out of its mouth.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: There you are in a layout blind.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: He should have buried his dog.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: Phil, are you going to have to put a warning
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: on this episode?
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: In addition to this dog being a coprophagic dog, scatophagic dog,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: he's also an avid face licker. And he's got you
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: kind of captive because you're in a layout blind. So
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: here now we know That he's just consumed human feces.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: But he wants to lick you real bad. I'm in
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: that layout blind beating this dog off.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 5: When you're not supposed to be moving around.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: Now we will have to put a warning.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: I'm in the layout blind aggressively shooing the dog away
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: just because of this. What do you think of that?
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: How many geese did you kill?
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Not many.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 5: A handful.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: Not unlimited.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: Not a slaughter hunt?
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: Not unlimited. What do you think of that?
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 6: That would have been the first time in my life
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 6: I would reject dog affection.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: I love dogs.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 5: Makes you wonder though.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Would you want that dog licking you? No.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 5: No.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: How's that for a story?
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: I'd rather hear Spencer's turtle story.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks, Steve.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: Here's my turtle story.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 6: An Iowa man is facing more than 120 charges in
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 6: Alabama for trafficking in endangered species.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: Phil's got pictures for us.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 6: Aiden Thronson, whose only prior criminal history- He's a little shaver.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 6: His only prior criminal history I could find was for
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 6: speeding in a school zone. He was arrested in Northwest
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 6: Alabama near Bankhead National Forest. He is accused of harvesting
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 6: and selling flattened musk turtles, which are a species that
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 6: is exclusively native to north central and west central Alabama.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 6: It's been called the rarest turtle in North America. The
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 6: turtle is listed as threatened by the U.S. Fish and
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 6: Wildlife Service, endangered by the state of Alabama, and critically
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 6: endangered by the IUCN Red List. These reptiles have been
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 6: extirpated from about 75% of their native range, Their population
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 6: is down 90% since the 1960s. Their greatest threats are
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 6: the things that you always hear in these cases, pollution,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 6: food chain disruption, poaching, and habitat loss. Specifically, the turtles
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 6: rely on rocky waterways where they wedge themselves into rock
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 6: crevices to escape predators. But due to mining practices and
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 6: urban development, their home waters have been filled with silt
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 6: that now covers their hidey-holes. and that exposes them to raccoons,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 6: snapping turtles, wading birds, and large fish. The turtles are
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: real easy pickings for most predators that wander the upper
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 6: Black Warrior River system, since adults only get three or
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: four inches big. But besides their shell, these are tiny
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 6: little turtles, besides their shell, their best defense is the
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 6: foul-smelling musk odor that they're named after, which they can
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 6: release when they're threatened.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: Now, guys like Aiden.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 6: are further depleting flattened musk turtle populations by moving them
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 6: on the exotic pet black market. The species is largely
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 6: trafficked due to its scarcity, not because it has any
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 6: perceived medicinal value. So what would it cost to own
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 6: one of them? Well, figures are pretty hard to come by,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 6: but there was a bust in the 1980s for someone
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 6: who was selling them at $ 80 a pop, which is
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 6: pretty cheap. In 2008, someone in Canada was advertising them
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 6: for 180 American dollars per turtle. And right now you
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 6: can buy one adult male from JJW Farm Sanctuary for $ 1, 444.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 6: And that's their sale price.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Is that dude Black Market? This is Black Market.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I can't find where this website is based
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 6: out of, but it seems to be foreign. They only
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 6: accept payment via Cash App, Zelle Pay, or Crypto.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: He's got a hell of a sale on, because that's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: marked down from $ 3, 000 to $ 1440.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 6: Let's talk about the rest of their offerings. This is
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 6: your one-stop shop for exotic animals, the JJW Farm Sanctuary.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: Here's what else they have.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 6: We could get a male sub-adult chimpanzee for $ 15, 000. That's
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 6: a $ 5, 000.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: Price marked down.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 6: That price seems appropriate, $ 15, 000.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: For a chimp. That's like, I think, in the neighborhood
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: of what I would guess.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 6: Or we could get the world's deadliest bird, a cassowary,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 6: for $ 7, 000. Or we could buy a pound of glass
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 6: eels for $ 2, 348. And this last one is just for Steve.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 6: We could buy an oscillated tom turkey for $ 2, 200. That's
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 6: not an oscillated turkey. I understand the photo is not,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 6: and I don't think that's their photo either. But they
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 6: are listing a male oscillated turkey for $ 2, 200. It has
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 6: one customer review from someone in Colorado. who said that
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 6: it seems to be a good turkey and they got
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 6: it on time. So $ 2, 200.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Where is this place out of?
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 6: I can't find a physical address, but it seems to.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: Be in a foreign nation. That's a CITES animal. 100%.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 6: Based on what I'm seeing, I would guess somewhere in
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 6: Asia is where this JJW Farm Sanctuary is located. They
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 6: have their email address on there. They encourage you to
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 6: come pick these critters up in person, but they will
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 6: ship them to you if you need to. And again,
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 6: the review was from somebody in Colorado who had an
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 6: oscillated turkey shipped to them. So that's where you can
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 6: buy a flattened musk turtle right now for $ 1, 444. That's
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 6: the turtle we're talking about.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: So how old is the kid there? The kid's young.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: 20 years old. He's 20 years old.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 6: Now, according to a CITES analysis, they believe that about
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 6: 100 flattened musk turtles are exported from the United States
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 6: every year, but they think the vast majority are farmed
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 6: animals rather than wild ones. As of now, it's unclear
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 6: where Aiden's turtles were headed or how many he had
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 6: when arrested, but the 104 counts of taking or selling
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 6: a protected species and the 20 counts of violating the
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 6: protection of flattened musk turtles suggest it was more than
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: just a few. The 20-year-old was given a $ 100, 000 cash
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 6: bond The Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources is
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 6: not commenting right now because they say it's an act
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 6: of investigation. So we don't know if he just had
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: like his pockets full of these turtles, if he had
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 6: a pickup full of these turtles, what it was, but
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 6: facing 120 plus counts for trafficking these things.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: My first instinct when I saw his picture, I thought
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: he was 15 or 16 years old. And I felt
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: bad for him. Not bad for him, you know what
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: I mean? Like caught up in something wrong. Didn't understand, right?
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: But 20. Yeah.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 6: And he's like very intentional driving from Iowa to Alabama
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 6: to this tiny little watershed to get these things.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 5: It makes you wonder what else he was doing.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: I bet he's a hunt, fish, and son of a gun.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 6: No, man. I tried to find his social media. I
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 6: found two profiles, one on Instagram, one Facebook, same exact name.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 6: And all the photos there are reptiles. So this seems
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 6: to be a real passion of his is having reptiles.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 5: Or selling them.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: Or selling them.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 6: So no further details right now. We'll see how this
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 6: plays out.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: You know, I have never even heard of that turtle.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Me either.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 6: That's why they call it the rarest one on the continent. Alabama, though,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 6: is just loaded with that stuff. Alabama, I think, has
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 6: the most freshwater diversity on the continent.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: That's my understanding.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Don't they have one... the most, maybe, endemics or something?
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 6: Freshwater fish that probably extends to the herpetology world as well.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: Man, that poor kid, man. That's his story. Well, I
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: don't know. He's 20, you know.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't think he's hanging out with the wrong crowd.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 6: I think he might be the wrong crowd.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: Might be the wrong crowd. That would be my guess.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: Speaking of the wrong.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 5: Crowd, 15 bears removed from Bozeman property after someone allegedly
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 5: fed them. Uh, Early September 26, just outside Bozeman, Montana Fish, Wildlife,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 5: and Parks received a report that black bears were allegedly
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 5: being deliberately fed at a residential property. Spokesman Morgan Jacobson
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 5: later said investigators believed that feeding had been occurring. Later
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 5: that month, wardens and wildlife staff investigated the property and
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 5: encountered an extraordinary concentration of bears. described as extremely food-conditioned
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 5: and habituated to people. Bears had lost their normal fear
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 5: of humans and were no longer relying on natural foods.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 5: FWP considered these bears to be a significant public safety threat,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 5: and all 15 of them were removed. 14 were euthanized,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 5: and a cub was was transferred to like a rehabilitation facility.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 5: The scale of that is highly unusual. In an entire year,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 5: FWP normally removes only about eight to 10 problem bears
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 5: from the Bozeman area. Jacobson said he knew no comparable
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 5: local case involving so many bears. Repeated access to human
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 5: food sources teaches bears to associate homes and people with
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 5: easy food. Relocated bears often come right back to where
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 5: they were captured when they were doing this stuff, or
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: they'll find another place to go near where they were
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 5: relocated to to get after human food. Common attractants are garbage,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 5: birdseed feeders, pet food, and other calorie-rich associated foods. But
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: it sounds like This person was, it wasn't like they
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 5: were coming in to hit a bird feeder, that these
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: bears were being fed. FWP stresses that early reporting matters
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 5: if you do have a bear that's, you know, getting
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 5: in your bird feeder or garbage, because if they catch
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 5: them early enough, they can kind of like stave off
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 5: that behavior in the future. As of today, the investigation
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: remains publicly open.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like they haven't identified the locale yet.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 5: I don't think they want- North of Bozeman.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: You say? I know, that's as much as I've found.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 5: It's probably, I assume that's intentional. They don't want, you know,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: to attract attention to that person. Like, that's all I
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 5: could guess. So they haven't identified a suspect or announced charges.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 5: Under Montana code- Unlawful supplemental feeding. The statute prohibits perfectly
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 5: or knowingly attracting bears with supplemental feed and prohibits feeding
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 5: that artificially concentrates wildlife. Maximum punishment, $ 50 to $ 1, 000 fine,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 5: up to six months in county jail. A court can
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 5: additionally revoke the offender's hunting, fishing, or trapping license and
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 5: suspend their ability to do any.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: Of that stuff. But there's no indication that they were
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: doing this to hunt. No, they might've been like, I
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: think this was an animal lover. Yeah. Yeah. That's the
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 1: vibe I get. Yeah. Is that it's not someone trying
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: to get like a little bait pile going for hunting
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: that it's a, that it's a, they're doing a favor
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: to the bears. Yes.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 5: They're, they're, they're doing the bears a solid by giving
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 5: them some food. Um, my react, my first, the first
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 5: thing that came to mind with, with that in mind,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 5: that this was just someone like being nice to the bears,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 5: an animal lover. But the first thing that came to
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 5: my mind is like, imagine the reaction, like what would
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 5: have happened if a hunter was found to have poached
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 5: 14 bears?
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, they'd be killing them. You know what I mean?
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 5: Like this person is responsible for the death of 14 bears. And,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 5: you know, we'll see, hopefully we find out what the
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 5: punishment ends up being, but I doubt it'll be what
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 5: they deserve.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: Is my- No, because think about the, from, from a
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: resource perspective.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: Think about, uh, I mean, this is not a bear.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: This is not a bear rich environment relative to other places. No,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: not that it's just not, it's like arid, you know, no,
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: it's fairly open. Like we don't have bears. Right. Like
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: in the densities that you do in dense forest ecosystems. Um,
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: What we have are more visible because of the open
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: nature of the country. But we don't have that many.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: And think about what you've done to the resource reduction
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: for people that do do lawful bear hunting. It's like,
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: that is a huge, huge hit to the bear population.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: The other thing I think about is for them to,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: how extreme it must have been. Where, I've told this
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: story a couple times, but I kicked a bear out
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: of my own garage twice now. this this fall two
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: times i've run a bear out of my garage it
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: was in the neighbor's garage um someone in our someone
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 1: in our neighborhood i'm not sure who someone in our
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: neighborhood tattle told on the bear their advice to them
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: was close your garage right exactly so these are not
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: like the agency the state agency is not trigger happy
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: no when it comes to problem bears their normal attitudes
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: is you need to take care of the like correct
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: the problem yeah you know if you've got like fruit
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: from fruit trees laying around get it picked up if
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: you got trash out get it picked up if you
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: got bird seed out take it in if it's in
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: your garage close your garage yeah this isn't like like
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: their attitude is learn to live with it reduce deterrence
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: and learn to live with it for so for them
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: to go all of a sudden like 14? It must
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: have been a crazy situation.
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and it brings to mind there was that woman
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 5: in California that was feeding bears regularly, and I think
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 5: she ended up getting killed by one of them.
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: In her house. Yeah. In her house.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 5: So that's like the extreme version of what could happen.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they must have had, these bears must have been
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: like standing around. Yeah. Like to know what bait they
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: were using.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my main question. Is in the Pilates capital
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: of the world, this posh mountain town, as proclaimed by
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: Steve and Rinella, what were they feeding the bears? Like,
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 2: were they smart enough just to be like, yeah, these
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: bears will eat corn. So they just went down to
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: the granary bought a bunch of bags of corn.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 5: Or bags of dog food or.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: Were they like oh Bears like red meat, so I'll
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: go buy half a cow and feed him steaks.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: Hopefully it'll go to, I shouldn't say hopefully, yeah, I
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: hope it goes to trial so all this becomes public.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 6: And if it would have been half that, if it
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 6: would have been seven bears, that would still be a
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 6: shocking number.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: 14 is insane. I don't even get, like you talked,
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: like Clay, he'll run up, when Clay's running a bait
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: pile down there in Arkansas, he'll get where he thinks that's,
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: I remember him saying one time he had a bait
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: pile and he thought 13 bears were using the bait pile.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: But he notes that he's like, when you kill one
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: of those bears, it shuts the bait pile down. Because
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: he says there's two things happening. Acorns, as he likes
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: to call them, acorns are starting to fall right around
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: that time of year. But also he said, so that's
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: a pull away. Like a bear would rather go eat
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: wild acorns rather than deal with the stressful situation of
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: coming into a bait station where a bunch of other
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: bears are using it. But he says a bait pile
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: is good for a bear. And when you kill one,
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: it shuts it down. So how could it be, like,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: how are these bears so habituated? I would love to
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: know this. They're so habituated that they're able to barrel
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: trap 14 bears?
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 5: This also isn't nearly the food-rich environment that Clay is
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 5: dealing with.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: Where the bears are like, geez, I keep seeing my
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: buddies in these barrels, but I'm going to keep coming.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 5: They got to work for food around here.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: Is that how they got them? They barrel trapped these?
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 2: I would imagine.
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: Or they darted them. I assume they just shot them dead.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 5: Maybe. I think they would have, if they say euthanized, like,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: Oh, that could be. Yeah, maybe they just went out
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: there and had to just shoot them off.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 5: Or they've trapped them. I mean, trapping them is 14
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 5: in one spot. Like, maybe they did just shoot them.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Because it's an open investigation, they're probably
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: not going to talk about this yet. But they are
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: generally very restrained and conservative about problem bears, which I applaud.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 5: They give them a chance, usually.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: This was already a couple weeks ago. My brother-in-law, yesterday
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: when I saw him, he said that just over the weekend,
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: they had trapped three more out of that neighborhood where
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: he lives, south of the university. So it's like, the
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: bears are just.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 5: It's a catastrophic berry failure this year.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're not in the mountains and out in the
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: places they should be. They're all coming to town to
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: look for food.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: But even the town food failed. I was talking to
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: an old-timer that has an apple orchard.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, you mean like that kind of town food?
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: He lost his whole orchard because the buds all froze
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: during that free cold snap. We have choked cherries and
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: crab apples. I shouldn't say that because you shouldn't have those.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: I didn't plant them.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: They're just there? You could cut them down.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: Dude, they even ask. Yeah. They even asked that if
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: you have these things, you should consider changing up your
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: tree program. For bears. Yes. Got it. It's a recommendation.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: It's a recommendation. Anyways, not a one in my yard,
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: not a single choke cherry or crab apple in my yard,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: but I've had the worst bear problems we've ever dealt with.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: Two o'clock, two o'clock in the afternoon, I had to
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: run one out of my garage.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: I wonder if we could transplant your problem trees over
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: to Wisconsin to my place where I'd love to have
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: the deer and bears eating on them. I would like
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: to make a correction. I think that those bears at
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: Clay's bait sites, when the acorns start falling, I don't
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: think it's that they all of a sudden are like, oh,
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: I don't want to deal with the stress of a
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: bait pile. I'm going to go eat acorns. I think
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: it's actually the acorns are falling. It is a much
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: better source of calories, better food, I don't need bait anymore.
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: I have this great thing called acorns.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: Here's why I disagree. Please. Once you shoot one, they
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: all vanish. So there is some calculation they're making. There
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: is some push and pull.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is some, but I'm just saying that I don't...
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: If the acorns start falling.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, he says they would rather.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: They change food source.
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: He says they would rather... But it hurries that decision along.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: He should come on the show and talk about it.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: It hurries that transition along when you shoot one on
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: the bait.
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: Or else, why does the transition happen right on opening day?
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: I honestly think it's coincidence. I mean, in Wisconsin, it
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: seems to happen a week before opening day.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, it does? Yeah.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Like literally all my neighbors like are quitting bear baiting
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: because everybody baits them. They have them all summer long
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: and then the acorns start falling and literally there are
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: no more bears on the baits or cameras.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: You could be right. I see what you're saying now. Yeah.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: I think it's a strong pull.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: Like it's just, it's like right around whatever that day is,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: September 5 or whatever. It's like you're at the end anyway. Yeah.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 1: You're at the end anyway.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: I understand.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 1: I'll buy that.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 2: Shall we continue?
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: Please.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 2: The Sportsman's Alliance Foundation and Safari Club International are suing
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission over its newly imposed
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: daily bag limit of two fur bears.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: Which is so dumb.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 4: Oh, it is.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: This is how it came about. Colorado's fur bear population
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: has historically been strong.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: Just quick. I shouldn't have spoke. I shouldn't have spoke.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: It's not dumb that they're suing them. It's dumb that
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: Colorado did that. It's good that they're suing them. But
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: go on, I shouldn't have even spoken up.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just adding, well, we'll get to all this.
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: The furbearer population in Colorado has historically been strong and
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: sustainable without any daily bag limit requiring no science-based restrictions. Originally,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: there were two proposals that came in for a change
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: in the bag limit. There was two options. One was
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 2: a limit of 15, which was recommended by CPW staff,
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: or a tiered limit of eight or four, which I
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: don't exactly understand how tiered goes eight or four, but whatever.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: Those were the two options.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: Some species eight, some species four.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: Okay. But where's the tiered come in?
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 5: It was for, there was two different groups of critters.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 5: One was like, Things that are considered predatory and nuisance,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 5: like foxes, raccoons, and then others were like pine martins.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: And the word tiered is just used because it's eight
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 2: and four.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: Sure. Okay.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: So there's a last minute introduction. This is what they're
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 2: getting in trouble for. During the July 16th meeting, Commissioner
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Rebecca Niemietz, introduced a motion for a limit of two
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: based on her own unpeer-reviewed survey published just the day before.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, come on.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: Just pulls it out of her arse.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: Literally. Despite objections from other commissioners that the new limit
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: bypassed public notice and comment requirements, six commissioners voted in
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 2: favor of the two-for-bear limit. Now, the whole commissioner thing
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: in Colorado, there's 13 total. Only 11 of them have
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: voting rights. They're appointed by the governor, but they have
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: to be sworn in by the legislator. So what's happening, legislation.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: What am I trying to say? Not legislation. Legislature. So
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: what's happening here is that the governor has appointed a
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: bunch of folks to this commission that aren't pro-hunting and fishing.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: And then this kind of stuff can come up, and
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: they vote on it, and it can get pushed through.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: So what they're getting sued over is, is that they
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: have violated the administrative procedure act by failing to provide
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: proper notice, including, and sorry, ignoring public comment rules and
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: relying on rushed unreviewed data.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like we're all here to debate and vote on 15.
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: And at the last minute, some gals like, ah, how
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: about two? Yes.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 5: That's what happens in that commission, man.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 5: Over and over.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: Uh, Colorado's got a big problem on their hands. But
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: right now, well, coming up, less than a month, October 3rd,
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: you can help Colorado's hunters, anglers.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 5: November 3rd.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what did I say? October 3rd? That already passed.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: November 3rd, you can vote in Colorado and vote for
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: Amendment 83. which would make a constitutional right to hunt
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: and fish in the state of Colorado. I talked to
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: Dan Gates this morning from Coloradans for Responsible Wildlife Management.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: He said the main thing you can do right now
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: if you're interested in helping this out is everything you
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: see on the internet, like on socials, don't just like
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: it or make a comment, share it. And I'll go...
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: on to say that like you should contact people it's
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: the same thing that i was saying for when we
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: were when you guys were voting for the uh for
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 2: the lion thing in colorado it's like just this morning
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: i sent a text to my uh family in colorado
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: um most of this group there's probably about 10 people
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 2: in this group most of them don't hunt my brother's
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: on this group he hunts i'm trying to think who
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 2: else my cousins used to hunt they haven't hunted in
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: 10 years And I just said, hey, have you heard
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: of Amendment 83? It's on the ballot. The short version
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: is this. The amendment creates a constitutional right to hunt
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 2: and fish. It'd be nice if something like this wasn't needed.
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: But animal rights extremists have chosen Colorado as one of
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: their battleground states, and they will continue to chip away
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: at these opportunities and Colorado's outdoor heritage until it's gone.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: Here's a link to learn more about the amendment. And
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: I gave them the SaveTheHuntColorado.com link. And I told them
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: I supported it wholeheartedly. I hope that they would too,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: and even more, share info about it, talk to neighbors
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: and friends. Paul Diaz. That's how you say thank you
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: in Latvian.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 5: You know what I'd like? We should have some kind
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 5: of expert that can explain, like, do these constitutional rights
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 5: to hunt and fish, do they have, like, teeth?
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: You should listen to this podcast. Because we've explored this
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: issue many times on this podcast. Would have it changed
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: anything in this specific situation, though?
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 6: Like, couldn't they still pitch the two-furbear limit and that
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 6: still pass?
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, I have yet to see. Like, I have yet
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: to see. No, no, no. There's an example. We covered
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: in a recent example where 25 states have enacted constitutional
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: right to hunt fish. Vermont was the first in the 70s.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: The next state didn't do it until, like, the mid
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: to early 90s.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: No, Vermont was the first in 1777. Hundreds of years ago.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: That's when they did it? Yes.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: The next one was in like 96. That's when it was? Yeah.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: They were way ahead of the game.
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: There's some states that are surprising that we have, like Montana,
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: like big hunting and fishing states. Montana hasn't done it.
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: Nevada hasn't done it. But 25 states have done a
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: constitutional right to hunt and fish. My question on this issue,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: and I ask everybody that comes on about it when
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: we talk to people about it, is can you cite
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: an example for me where a piece of legislation came
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: up and the legislation or a game management question came
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: up and it was shot down because it would have
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: violated the right to hunt fish. And there's just one
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 1: right now. Who's the state that's suing on fisheries? We
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: just covered it on the podcast. Is that North Carolina?
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: I believe North Carolina. Anglers are saying your fisheries management
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: has run amok. And you are degrading or challenging our
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: constitutional right to hunt and fish by not managing fisheries
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: in a way that allows for fishing. And they're questioning
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: it under that. But I'm not aware of many situations
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: where actions have taken place where this would trump those actions.
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: I could picture some. And I could also picture that
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: they'd say, that it would be, we're always going to
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: set bag limits. The commission sets bag limits to do
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: all this, and that you wouldn't be able to sue
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: under that premise anyways. But with that said, I do
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: think it's a very good thing to do. Oh, yeah.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: And I think that when we pass these pieces of legislation,
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: we should make them as broad-reaching as possible because you're
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: doing it on a ballot initiative, which makes good hard law.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and in a state like Colorado, you're doing it
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 5: kind of crystal balling the worst scenario where they're like, sorry,
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 5: you can't hunt bighorn sheep anymore.
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 1: Or whatever, you know? It's so puzzling to me that
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: Colorado of all places has emerged as The area where
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: the radical animal rights agenda is being tested.
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 5: I don't think it's weird at all.
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: I would picture it more in Rhode Island.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: Don't you think them and Washington are the two that
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: are kind of battling?
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Washington is bad, bad.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 5: They saw an opportunity when Polis got into office. And,
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 5: you know, we know that Polis's husband is very much
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 5: an animal rights activist.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: That's how he defines himself.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 5: I think they were like, all right, here's our chance
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 5: to pounce, you know?
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they have a ally in the governor's mansion,
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: and then his husband defines himself as an animal, whatever
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: the hell goofy term he uses, defines himself as an
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: animal rights activist.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 5: And we know from the Cats Aren't Trophy thing that
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 5: the governor was involved in that whole thing.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, his husband there. He's spending money and advocating against
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: Proposition 83. They don't want Amendment 83.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: No, definitely not.
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: Now that that dude's getting termed out, is the person
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: that's going to replace this governor, who I think is
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: just the worst governor in the country, is who's ever
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: going to replace Polis? Are they more friendly to hunters
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: and anglers, or are they like another animal rights wag
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: job coming in?
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 5: I need to research it.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: According to Dan Gates, he's better.
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 1: He's better, yeah.
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 6: Is there a federal avenue in this that, like, if
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 6: Trump decided tomorrow that he wanted to create 50 states
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 6: having the constitutional right to fish, does that work?
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: It would be an, I don't know, there would be
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: some kind of executive action. Well, he was bragging the
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: other day. He was bragging the other day that he
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: could ban fishing. He says, my office is so powerful,
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: I could ban fishing. I might just ban it for
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: a day. That's great. Maybe that's the win on this.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: He was explaining this to Johnny Morris, and he was
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: saying to Johnny Morris, who was in the audience when
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: he said this, he said, I could make it that
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: you don't sell any fishing rods. My office is so powerful,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: I could ban fishing for a day. And he joked,
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to fall into the trap of not
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: knowing when the guy's joking, which the news media always
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: pretends to not know when they're joking. He's joking. but
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: he joked, I could do this.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 5: I don't think, I don't find that joke funny.
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: Well, it's a joke. At all. It's a joke. And
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: the media, the media always, like he says a joke
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: and then they go and act like he meant it. Right.
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: And there's that, there's that Selena Zito quote. The media
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: doesn't take Trump seriously, but they take him literally. Trump
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: supporters take him seriously, but not literally. And so the
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: media then, you know, whatever, they would act like he's
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: really going to ban fishing for a day, which would
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: be not a thing he's going to do. But him
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: saying that, I wonder if that is true from a
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: legal perspective. And you did an executive order. The problem
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: is with executive orders, as we see every time anybody
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: does an executive order, the next executive undoes that executive order.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: And that's how you get stuff like the monument battles going.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: the roadless battle, and all these other executive orders.
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 5: But I don't think it would have, like, he couldn't,
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 5: how could he order, the states control their own wildlife regulations,
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 5: like hunting and, like, I don't.
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I don't see it happening. We
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: should dare him to pass it.
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it would be illegal. My hope
• 1:35:59
  Speaker 2: is that these amendments to the state's constitutions, that it
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 2: would act as a retardant to future attacks. And if
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 2: that is all that it does, great, you know. Dan
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: Gates will have more time to enjoy his retirement as
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 2: opposed to sitting around all the time battling this.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 5: Give one more quick call to action, Giannis, please.
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go to SaveTheHuntColorado.com.
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: An issue I see, and when Colorado's going through the
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: last election cycle, when the cat hunting ban was up
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: in Colorado, I never said it. I never said it,
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: but I got pessimistic. Do you remember? Yeah. I was like, man,
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: I think it's going to pass. I never said it,
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: but I was like, I got fearful that it would pass.
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 5: You had reason to believe that.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: Did you have people who thought that, who were educated?
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: What's that? Did you have people who thought that who
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: were educated on the subject? I was just looking at
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: the polling.
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 5: I think there was good reason to wonder because the
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 5: Wolf thing went through, right?
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: But I don't see those as... I know, but... They're neighbors,
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: but not cousins.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 5: But it gives you an idea of how the electorate
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 5: is thinking.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: I got pessimistic. And I got to, toward the end,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: I got like, man... I never said it because I
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: didn't want to deter... I didn't want to... People just
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: give up and not show up at the polls or whatever.
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 1: But I got nervous. And I got to, on the
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: day before, I got to where I was like, if
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: I really had to guess, I think that we're going
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: to fall short. And then got it by a good margin.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: 55 to 45. Which is big. Where we send people
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: to the White House on 49.9% of the vote. Or
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: sometimes we send people to the White House on less
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: than half of the vote. Margins are tight these days.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: On this one, the thing I'm worried about is, what
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: I keep reading is that they're anticipating, on November 3rd,
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: they're anticipating the blue wave. And the blue wave would
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: be that Democratic voters are very motivated to go to
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: the polls right now. And they're finding a sort of
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: waning enthusiasm among Republican voters. This, like it or not,
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: is going to be a, not clean, not clean, but
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: it's gonna just be a partisan split vote this is
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: gonna have heavy support from republican voters and it's gonna
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: have i bet you among democratic voters if only democratic
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: voters voted on this amendment the amendment wouldn't pass It'll
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: lose among Democratic voters. It'll win overwhelmingly among Republican voters.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: If Republican voters are not motivated to go to the polls,
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 1: it makes me worried about Amendment 83.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 5: It'll pass. Go vote.
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But you agree that it's, well, no, it'll not
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: pass among Democrat voters. and it'll pass overwhelmingly among Republican voters.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 5: So we need some Democrats to vote for it.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: And you need a lot of Republicans. I don't know
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: what all they got going on. I think the Republicans
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: have kind of given up hope in Colorado. Like, you're
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: not going to win the governor's office.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 2: This is, I think, something... I want to bring this
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: up because it gives you a talking point, and everybody,
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: I think, at home can be like, oh, no, why
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: do I really need to go talk to people that,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: you know, don't understand hunting, or how am I going
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: to talk to them about this, or just... This gives
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: you a little insight as to what non-hunters, this is,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 2: I was texting with my aunt after I texted the group.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: She wrote back and said, hey, I'm all for hunt
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: to eat, but have reservations about trophy hunters. Does this
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: amendment address that? I didn't see it addressed. Is it under,
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: in quotes, traditional hunting? okay so again this is just
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: where she's at with what she knows about hunting and
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: there is a part of it and again that term
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: i was asking you guys earlier like it's been weaponized
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 2: big time yeah i could go to her right now
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 2: and i might have a i might call her and
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 2: say hey i'm a trophy hunter at times i just
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: spent 20 days in uh hunting elk and didn't shoot
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 2: an elk because i was looking for a trophy um
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 2: But that's like what's in her head because she's hearing
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: about like how bad trophy hunting is.
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: Because she thinks of it as a dichotomy.
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: Well, she thinks of, I said, well, what is trophy
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: hunting to you? She says, well, someone just goes and
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: kills something and takes the antlers and puts it on
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: their wall. I said, well, that's illegal. You literally cannot
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 2: do that anywhere. That's called poaching. She's grizzly.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 5: Huh?
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: Gets it.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: It's like different states call different things, but it's wanton waste.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 2: So it's like that kind of a simple conversation and
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: explaining something simple as that is saying, hey, trophy hunting,
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: this thing that you think is trophy hunting that you're
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: seeing in the media and people are saying, oh, this
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: is what these people actually want to do.
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 3: It's illegal.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: We can't do it. No one does it. And so
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: you can kind of forget about trophy hunting and just like,
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: please support us as just hunters and anglers that are
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: mostly out there doing the hunt.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: To eat thing. Except for Brody's body. One more shout-out
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: for Vermont.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 6: They passed it in 1777. That was 14 years before
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 6: they became a state, and they were the only state
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 6: who had that protected right to hunt and fish for
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 6: more than 200 years. How can you have a constitutional
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 6: amendment before you're a state?
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: Dude, they didn't even finish the revolution. Like, this is
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: an important one. When we did the Longhunters, where it's colonial... Uh,
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: you know, it's about the colonial deerskin trade. Like our,
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: our audio original long hunters covers the end of the
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: French and Indian war up to the American revolution. And
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: we talk about pre revolution, all of the deer hunting
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: restrictions that were in place. There was restrictions that you
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: couldn't hunt if you weren't a local. You couldn't hunt
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: deer if you weren't a local. There was people putting
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: in deer seasons. In the 1760s, 1770s, they're like, we
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: need a season. We need bag limits. New York, I think,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: was the first. We need that you can't shoot does.
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 1: We need that you can't come from out of town
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 1: and hunt deer around here. So yeah, it was people
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: who were aware of these things. All right, man. I
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: hope just a lot of people show up on.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: November 3rd. And just do what you guys did around
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: the cat thing down in Colorado. It is so upsetting
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 1: to see this happening in Colorado. SaveTheHuntColorado.com. Sons of bitches.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: See you guys next week.
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 1: We want to make them go hunt with that lamb. Yeah,
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: we'd want to protect his right. All right, man. See
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: you next week.