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Transcript

Word · Formed

0:09
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Formed.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: This is a podcast focused on Christian formation here at the town church.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: And this fall, we're really doing two things.
0:17
SPEAKER_01: One, we're going to look at corporate worship in particular.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: That's a rhythm that we have that forms us, and there's so much to talk about with that.
0:26
SPEAKER_01: We're still looking at different elements of it.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: And then we're also in the other weeks looking at questions that are sent in about formation in general.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: This week we're looking at corporate worship, and the element we're going to explore is the word or the sermon, the preaching that is not only common in any sort of church gathering on a Sunday morning, but it's really central to how we approach a Sunday morning.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: It's central to our liturgy.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot of questions to ask about that.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: So I want to do that.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: And to help me do that, I have brought on my illustrious guest.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I think about illustrious.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: I think it's a good thing.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: Isn't it?
1:07
SPEAKER_01: I think it means shiny.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: Does it bright?
1:13
SPEAKER_01: Illustrative?
1:15
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't know.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh Vince Black.
1:17
SPEAKER_01: He his primary role is preaching, and he carries the heaviest load there with most irregularly preaching.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: And so I'll get your thoughts on it, Vince.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, so let's just get right at it.
1:27
SPEAKER_01: To start, I want to ask you what was your growing up like with sermons?
1:32
SPEAKER_01: How did you engage with it growing up?
1:33
SPEAKER_01: What did you think about you grew up in the church?
1:36
SPEAKER_01: Like what was that?
1:37
SPEAKER_00: What was that like?
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did grow up in the church.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the church I grew up in was a church um where this was my experience, where hearing the Bible preached book at a time was my experience.
1:53
SPEAKER_00: So um versus versus maybe what?
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Versus a a topical, you know, here's eight sermons on marriage, here's six sermons on money.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: Um I grew up in a church where we would, you know, take a book of the Bible at a time and work through it from beginning to end.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: So I um I mean we I started going to this church when I was five.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Before that, we were we lived in Germany, um, and so I don't have any recollection of that church.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh the church that I was in from the age of five until I left the home, um, left our our home, um, my parents' home, was the same church, and that's what we did.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, worked through it.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: I'll I will say, uh for all the young listeners, which probably don't have any, but uh probably don't for the five-year-olds listening right now.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm yeah, I don't know that I appreciated it as a youngster.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Um not not the style, not the what we were doing, just that we I had to sit still and pay attention.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: So this was like the sit still time.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this was the yeah, I I had to sit still and and you know it was it was recommended and encouraged that we have our Bibles with us.
3:14
SPEAKER_00: And I uh you know, as a six, seven, eight year old, that wasn't just wasn't something I'd rather be out playing or doing goofing around with my friends or whatever.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: So I did a lot of drawing.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I spent a lot of time.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: We had, you know, had a bulletin that was passed out at the front door when we walked in, and I did a lot of drawing and trying to, you know, get through the 35, 40 minutes and get on to something different.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: So that was my those early years.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: However, I will say that once I left the house and and it was up to me then to find a church, that was the only thing I had in mind for what to be looking for was a church that was preaching through the Bible regularly.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, those that those years, five, six, seven, eight, whatever, those, those younger years, that didn't last all the way through, you know, till I was eighteen.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: I I grew to appreciate it more and more as a way of of life.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: But again, like when I moved out of my parents' house and it was up to me to find a church, that was my only category for what to look for.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: A Bible preaching church.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: A Bible preaching church from a book of the Bible, regular, you know, regularly going through the same, you know, the next text, the next text, the next text.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: When this is gonna be really crass, when did listening to a sermon stop being just boring or something just to get through?
4:37
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it still is, right?
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, when I'm preaching, you're like, this reminds me when I'm fine.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: No, when I'm preaching, I'm like, what am I doing?
4:45
SPEAKER_00: This is boring.
4:47
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, that's a good question.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't I don't know.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I have the answer.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm uh I think really okay, I I I do have some some thoughts about it.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: I had someone who um in my later years in high school, I had someone who was um a mentor uh who a discipling me that we were working through book a book of the Bible together.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: We did a Bible study, and I think as I learned to engage with the Bible more and more personally, um, then corporately it became something that I also had a desire to engage in.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: But I but I learned it.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: I learned it over time as we you know, I was in Iwana, so if you were in a shout out to a food workmen are not ashamed, not ashamed.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, although there was some shame in it for me, I'll tell you.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: You didn't get the badges.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: I didn't get the badges.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: I think memorizing God's word is is a piece of it.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: I think being engaged in God's word on a personal level or um in a you know a smaller group kind of setting, anything that that engages um on a more individual level, I think helps in a corporate setting also.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's when it became more of a of something I desired to do in a corporate setting was when I was beginning to engage with it, I don't know, 15, 16, 17, something like that.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: So later I want to ask some more questions about engaging in with young kids.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna leave that there for now.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Let's I want to ask a question that zooms all the way out.
6:28
SPEAKER_01: Um why do we have preaching in the corporate worship gathering?
6:34
SPEAKER_01: Period.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: It's job security for me, right?
6:37
SPEAKER_00: Is that what it's no?
6:39
SPEAKER_00: I um I mean I I think we can go all the way back to the early church when the first church began to meet.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: I was looking at the as we were talking about it before we started recording.
6:48
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about this in the early church after Jesus died, was buried, resurrected, ascended, um, he left the spirit.
6:58
SPEAKER_00: And some of the very first chapters of the book of Acts, we see Peter having these long, I mean, they weren't called sermons at the time, but our headings say Peter's sermon at Pentecost.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, there were these long explanations of scripture from different leaders in the what was becoming the church.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: And I I think about chapter two of Acts, verse starting in verse 42, it says they devoted, this is talking about the early church, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship and the breaking of bread, prayers and all came over all of them.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: And and we and there's several places that talk about that there, that there was some sort of teaching that they were devoted to hearing from, the expounding on what they had was the Old Testament, expounding on those things for the church, an explanation of it for the church.
7:51
SPEAKER_00: Now remember, um, the the people of this day, not all of them were literate, and so there was a or the oral um transmission of of God's word um was something they leaned on heavily.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: So the explanation of it was something that became a pattern of the early church.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: They gathered around those truths.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: The expounding of the truth of God's word was a piece of what they regularly regularly gathered to do.
8:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to find it.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: I just read it the other day.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: No, that's not helpful.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: In one of the letters that Paul writes to the early church, um, he instructs he instructs them to share it with other churches as well, to be read in their gatherings.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: And so we go through the Bible in our sermon series.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: We don't do a whole letter of Paul at a time.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine that?
8:44
SPEAKER_01: But they are now gathered.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, it's in in the end of uh the book of Colossians.
8:49
SPEAKER_01: So chapter four, verse sixteen, Paul writes this.
8:53
SPEAKER_01: And when this letter has been read among you, have it read also in the church of the Laodiceans, and see that you also read the letter from Laodicea.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a gathering, they're reading Paul's letters, which now we are using as text in our sermons, um, as a focal point of what of what they're doing.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and some believe that Paul knew that what he was writing would become, would be uh authoritative, the the authoritative word of God for the church.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Which is wild.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Peter talks about it, you know, how Paul's Paul's writings are confusing, hard to understand.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: But so so there's some understanding that um, you know, what was being read from these letters was authoritative.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was authoritative.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: It was from God and it it should be expounded upon, talked about.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: So one reason why we do it today is that we are following the practice of the early church and what we see as evidence in scripture.
9:47
SPEAKER_01: Are there other reasons why we have preaching as a as a focal point, particularly in our gatherings?
9:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean I I think the point of our gatherings on Sunday is to to uh be together as a people who are rallying around a central truth, that central tr truth being who God is and what he's done through his son.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh the life, death, resurrection, uh ascension of Jesus and the hopeful return.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean it's a like we're hoping for it, I just mean it it is it is a hope.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: Um we gather around those central truths.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Where do we find those central truths in God's word?
10:27
SPEAKER_00: We find uh God's word is authoritative, it it has authority for our lives.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: It's Paul says it's active and it's living and it's sharp and it pierces our hearts and um it's inspired, it's breathed out by God, it's for us, it's for our our reproof and our correction and our our training in godliness.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Therefore, um as we gather together week after week, that central rallying point, that central truth um it is going to find its its place, its primary place in as we gather.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean it will be a a main part because that's where we find truth.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: So it'd be different if you know, if week after week I got up and said, you know, I was thinking about something this week, um that might last for a week or two until people are like, Yeah, we don't really care what you were thinking about this week.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Um it doesn't hold any bearing on our life.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: That's not a that's good for you, it's not it's not really authoritative for me.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: What's the authority in your voice?
11:30
SPEAKER_00: Um so that central rallying truth is God's word.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: Let's spend time looking at it so that so here's the so that maybe this is what you're getting at, so that our hearts are formed by it and our affections are growing um for who God is and and what he's given in his son.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man, there's so many thoughts going through my head.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: I script it's such a central part of our liturgy, and it is for many, not all, but many Christian churches.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Um because it's a source of authority, it's what we can trust.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: That is what we can lean on.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: And so your job as preacher, like in a way we can measure like the quality of the sermon to a degree on how faithful it is to scriptures.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: Like when you get to preach, just to your point, you're not saying so.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: My opinion, or what I think, hey, I I had I had this dream last night, I'm feeling X, Y, or Z.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: You are doing your best to be faithful to this is what God's word has and is saying for us today, whether it feels good or not.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: And that's not to say that um God God may not uh that's not to say that God isn't uh somehow using me and the things that I might bring to the table based on an experience that I had when I was walking through Old Town.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: There might be some good truths in that.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: But how do we base that?
12:57
SPEAKER_00: What what do we base that on?
12:59
SPEAKER_00: Good good truths about me walking through Old Town based on what?
13:03
SPEAKER_00: What is the truth?
13:05
SPEAKER_00: The truth is who God is and says He is, and where do we get that?
13:09
SPEAKER_00: We get that in God's word.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: So, in a lot of ways, uh what I'm doing on Sunday, and the way I've said it um somewhat uh facetiously, but not really.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: It's a laziness on my part.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to come up with something new every week based on my experiences and my wisdom.
13:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't I don't want to have to try to figure out how do I lead these people when it it's right here.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: We have it in in God's word and and we can look at it.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: That that's our source of truth.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: So a piece of the hard work that you do is taking what is true in God's word, knowing this church, the context of our church, what people are wrestling through, where we're at, and faithfully communicating the truth of it and applying it.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: So you have to so this is work that you're doing, like applying it in a way that the Spirit might use to show us more of God and and uh grow us, shape us, form us, pull us forward.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: That's my hope.
14:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: Whether I whether that happens every week or not, uh but that's my hope.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: My hope is that I'm I'm able to sit down and study, starting with God's word, using other secondary sources to to help me understand, using the original languages to help me understand what's going on in the text, and then I step back from that and I try to figure out from my understanding of who we are as a church and the people who are a part of our church and the things that they're going through, the joys and the sorrows that they're going through.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: How does the text that we we have in front of us, how does that apply to the hearts and lives of the people who are a part of our church right now, and what might God do through the Spirit to impact hearts and lives through that?
15:01
SPEAKER_01: So it's a part of our liturgy in part because um we see the early church practicing it.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: So there's there's something there.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: That's one.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: It's also a central part of our liturgy because that's where our our primary authority comes from, where God primarily reveals himself to us, it's what shapes us.
15:18
SPEAKER_01: So that's the work that you're doing.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: So the Bible is is primary, and we see that part through a sermon.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: This touches on a second question I have that's very, very related.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: This is a kind of a crass way of saying it, but what does what does preaching do?
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Like what what what's happening when we're listening to a sermon when the word is being preached?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's a good question.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: I'll um I'm not prepared for this.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: I'll sort of shoot from the hip here a little bit.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: Um but but I think these things stand.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: Um there is something cognitively happening.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we you know, I don't I don't sit down and look at a text and then close my eyes and say, Spirit, yeah, do something here.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: There is a cognitive like study to this that we want to know in our heads what was happening in the original context.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: Where is Galilee?
16:15
SPEAKER_00: What does that how does that fit in history?
16:18
SPEAKER_00: And so there is a cognitive piece of that.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: And I and I think that is a piece of it.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is a piece of our Sunday mornings.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: We sit down and we hear the context, we hear the the um what was going on, we hear who the people are, we hear the hit how it fits into history.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: We need to know that.
16:31
SPEAKER_00: That that is that's a piece of it.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Um and then we move into application.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: The word is not given to us for as a history book.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: The the Bible is not given to us uh primarily as a history book, although there's history in it.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: It's given to us um that it might affect our hearts.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: And so there's something that happens mysteriously where where what we're learning from the words on a page or from hearing it, if if we're not looking at the page, hearing it.
17:03
SPEAKER_00: And that's hitting our heads, and we're we're taking it in cognitively, we're understanding the tr the things that are there.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: There's something that the spirit does to take those truths and apply them to our hearts to affect, to bear on us as as people who have the spirit um to to affect our hearts.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: And so I th again I go back to Paul, I already said it.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: But God's word is living and active, it's sharper than any two-edged s sword.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: It it pierces in between the joints and the marrow and gets at the places that that that are deep inside of us.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's mysterious.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how it does that necessarily.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: It does but it it does it more through God's word because the spirit's involved in it's the truth of God than it does if we're reading you know, wh whatever, East of Eden or whatever it is.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's something mysterious happening as the Spirit um affects our hearts with the truth of who God is in his word.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: That we and that we can't always put our finger exactly on in the moment or even sometimes after the moment.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's a combination of all those things.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think if you take away the the sort of cognitive historical, you know, um place and time thing, if you take that away, you're missing a piece that that might relate to you as a human, right?
18:31
SPEAKER_00: The human condition is woven through it because these are real things happening in real times and real places with real people.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: That affects me.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: I could see myself there.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: I could understand how that hits a human heart.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: So we need it.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think we need all of those pieces together.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if it's a fair summary to say something like the spirit every time that we are sitting and paying attention to God's word preached, the spirit is at work and sometimes, maybe maybe all the time, in some pretty mysterious ways, but affecting our heads and hearts somehow.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:10
SPEAKER_01: In some way, every time that we're actually engaging and paying attention to the word being preached.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Something's happening right then that's profound and that we need.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: And we may not know it right then.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: And we may not even experience it right then.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: But like I said, you know, I s I I grew up in this church, and I don't know that as a seven-year-old, I experienced it right then, but it did affect, it shaped and formed my heart and um and the experience that I had for year, year after year after year after year in this.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Um that didn't return empty.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, God used that.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: I remember being in my early 20s, I'm in seminary, and I'm thinking, man, I don't think sermons actually do anything.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: We spend 20 to 45 minutes every Sunday listening to the word preached, and I have a really hard time going back and being able to say, and this happened as a result.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: So I remember thinking, like, what if we just throw it out?
20:07
SPEAKER_01: We do something different when we get together, or we do a Bible study, or it's like a Bible discussion or something instead of uh the the sermon.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: Um now my view has radically changed on that.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: I I think I was really deficient in appreciating the long game and how so much of the Christian life is God shaping us over years and decades rather than just that particular He can do it, right?
20:33
SPEAKER_01: It could it could be one Sunday, radical change.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: He does that, yeah, but often it is imperce and perceivable ways that he graciously is shaping us.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm gonna stop with that.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Um what can I ask you?
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Do you know is there a moment that it changed for you?
20:57
SPEAKER_00: So in your in your 20s, you thought, why do we need this?
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: What where where was the where when did you experience that deficiency and say, Oh I remember one of my professors speaking directly to that and bringing up the long game.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: And when I heard that, I was like, he might be right.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: And then I think over time it simply has played out that no, that that's absolutely right.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: So it wasn't like years and years and years being like, we should stop preaching.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't that.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: But it was a very distinct moment in my life where I was questioning even the value of it.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Because what's it do?
21:31
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
21:32
SPEAKER_01: I don't really see it, so let's maybe throw it out.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I I'll I'll hang on to something you said, which I think is true.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's possible that we could just do a big Bible discussion, right?
21:45
SPEAKER_00: That that's not that wouldn't be sin.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: That wouldn't be uh biblical, right?
21:50
SPEAKER_00: That that we could do that.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: We could get together on a Sunday and say, hey, here's a thought.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna put this up on the screen and like you all to break up into some groups and and talk some.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Through this.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: And there could be some real fruit in that.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: There there could be.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: I I I think we I don't think we see that modeled in the New Testament.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: I think when we when we see the people gathered, there was some sort of teaching or preaching.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: We see it from Jesus.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: We've seen it in Luke already, where Jesus gathers his disciples together and teaches them.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: There's a specific teaching in mind, and often he uses would use the Old Testament.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: So I think there are a lot of different methods.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: The way that and it fits the personality, right?
22:30
SPEAKER_00: You and I preach very differently.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Um we have the same thread, the word of God, but we're very different.
22:38
SPEAKER_00: You often start with a question.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: I often think, I don't know what I'm doing.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Here's an outline that I've come up with that helps us kind of sort through this.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's very different.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: And if Brock preaches, it's very different.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: And if John preaches, it's very different, and others.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, so we could do it in a variety of different ways.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, and much of that's dependent on the personality and also the the um the ways in which we've done it, just the sort of culture that we've come up in and and see it working well.
23:09
SPEAKER_01: It does raise an interesting question though.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Um would it somehow be uh what's the word?
23:18
SPEAKER_01: Deficient or sinful or unbiblical if we changed our liturgy and instead of preaching, we do have like a Bible study or a Bible discussion.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: I I mean we would have to get into a lot of different specifics and practical things, right?
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Like who who's leading?
23:41
SPEAKER_00: Who's leading that Bible study?
23:42
SPEAKER_00: There needs to be a leader.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: We can't just sit in a big circle and share ignorance.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: There needs to be some stated truth that we're all walking away with.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: That could happen in a Bible study.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Who's leading that?
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Is it someone who is gifted and called to lead that?
23:58
SPEAKER_00: Is it someone who has authority in the church and there's accountability for that person?
24:03
SPEAKER_00: Um is that person an elder?
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh the elder uh a primary role of the elder is to teach, um, is to pract protect sound doctrine and and and protect from from wolves.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: Um is it that?
24:15
SPEAKER_00: So I I think it could be, but I still think the same parameters would be on on the Bible study that we would say are on the the preacher.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Therefore, it kind of gets to this practical like, so what are we doing then?
24:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is are we engaging, experiencing, hearing from God in God's word?
24:39
SPEAKER_01: Right.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: That's the piece we're gonna hold on to most highly.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's no I don't think there's any magic behind it.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be 10 minutes, it needs to be 20, 30, 40.
24:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so why is our about 45 minutes to sometimes push in an hour?
24:52
SPEAKER_00: I think you might have the record.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: I don't think I do.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: I think you might.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: There was a sermon that you gave 10 plus years ago.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: If I remember right, I think it was uh clocked into what 62 minutes, maybe.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: All right, anyway.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: Don't fact check that one.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: Is there anything magical about that?
25:10
SPEAKER_01: Or or why is that why are we pretty consistently um a good portion of an hour spent in a sermon?
25:20
SPEAKER_00: That I think is a good question.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and well, uh I don't want to give you too much credit.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: I just mean that's a good question for us to consider.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Um I I mean I I think some of it is um tradition.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's traditionally what what what I grew up in although when I was you know five, six, seven years old it felt like seven hours, not forty minutes or whatever.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: Um I think often to to um put together a full argument around where we're headed from a passage, it takes some time.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't ever set out the I don't know how you do it.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't ever set out to say usually they're 45 minutes.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: I have to get to 45 minutes.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: In fact, often what I'm doing is saying they're usually 45 minutes, I should try to cut a lot of this.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Um but i I don't have a time limit in mind.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Um there are times when I think, well, this doesn't need to be that long.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Um the passage I'm working on right now for the Sunday coming up, it's a longer one, it's a little bit confusing.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: I I think it may take some time.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: But there are other times it's a it could be a verse.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, but there's a lot that goes into looking at how how do we apply this.
26:52
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know.
26:55
SPEAKER_00: I I I could be I could be um convinced that it should be shorter.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: I could also be convinced that it could be longer.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: I don't think there's anything right or wrong necessarily.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: I I think some of it is the attention span of the people and also the context of what we've got put together in our in our room.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's definitely a point where you can feel like get a little squirmy.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:20
SPEAKER_01: And and for us, I think you're right.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: Like for us, this is a piece of a maybe a cultural piece for the town church.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: This does not apply to every other church, but there are some expectations now because this is how we've done it.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: That's about 45 minutes or so.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: Other churches says 20 minutes.
27:35
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, other churches it's longer.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have a friend down in Broomfield.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: He regularly, I don't think I've seen a sermon of his under an hour.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: And so what I'm hearing you say is that one of the reasons why we specifically is about 45 minutes is that it has been about what it's taken to develop the passage in in how you and I prepare.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's not, I don't think for me, I'd have to check my heart here, but I don't think it's ever been a that's what we should do.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: So try to get there.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Try to get to 45 minutes.
28:06
SPEAKER_00: Better fill it out a little bit.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Fill it out.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I should add some more things, some more stories, some more pictures.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: I that it's not that.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: It really at times it really does take a how do I say this in a way that's both understandable to the context and the history and all of that, and also applies to our hearts, gets at our hearts and what the what the spirit might be doing, and also the sort of so what?
28:31
SPEAKER_00: So what do I now do with this?
28:32
SPEAKER_00: And how does that tie into everything else we've learned over the weeks that we've gone through?
28:39
SPEAKER_01: Something else that's a little bit unique on how the town church approaches this.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: You mentioned this earlier is preaching through books of the Bible.
28:46
SPEAKER_01: Why, why do we do that?
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: We hold that as a pretty high value.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple, there's a few reasons that I look at it.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: One, I mean there's one practical reason.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Um it's mu this is my opinion, it's much easier to work through.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: I, you know, every every Monday I come in and I sit down, I think, okay, what's next?
29:09
SPEAKER_00: And I open and look at the next passage, and there it is.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think there's something unique.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying it's the right way to do it.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: There's something unique about how the how the spirit uses what's next in the life of the church.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's often, in fact, Jory and I were just talking about this that, you know, there's something that him he maybe talked about in a youth gathering, that the following Sunday, um, the very thing that he talked about in the youth gathering was a part of the text for that Sunday.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, we didn't plan that.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: He didn't plan it, I didn't plan it.
29:48
SPEAKER_00: It's what the what God was doing in the course of that.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: So um that that's a piece of it.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: Just just practically, I I want I want God and his word to dictate what we're doing next and next and next.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: We also have it.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: It's the truth.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: There's not another source of truth that we have as Christians.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: We don't have a long list of like, here are the church fathers and we lean on them, and here are the whatever we lean on them.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: This is the source of truth that God has given to us.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Therefore, I want to look at it um in a in a way that seems congruent, consistent, um, in a way that that we're walking through the whole flow of what's written in the letter or the book or the history of of God's people or the poetry of God's people.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: I want to see it from beginning to end.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: So that there's some we have some way of growing in our understanding of how God's word is laid out and how how we work through it in that way.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think the spirit's involved in that.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: There, I mean, it if it were up to me, there are a lot of passages I would skip because they get dicey.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the passage we're about to look at, speaking of dicey, the passage we're about to look at um this coming Sunday, I don't know when you're listening to this, but um, it Jesus talks of uh gives this parable about a master who comes home and sees an an unfaithful servant and cuts him into pieces.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: That's something I'd rather not really talk about in an audience with five-year-olds in the room and and people who may have some squeamish tendencies.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: That's I I'd skip over that.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: And there are so many other things I'd skip over too, because they just feel uncomfortable.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: But God's word doesn't uh God's word working through it in consistency in um in line of the whole book doesn't give us that out.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's in God's word, he wants us to know it.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: It's just as inspired as the other parts.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: He wants us to know it, wants us to be changed by it, wants us to be formed by it.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: That's that's part of how I've I talk about it sometimes.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes what I say is if I were to give I don't preach nearly as much as you, so I'm assuming you're gonna agree with this though.
32:04
SPEAKER_01: If I were to give like a four-week sermon series on the topic of love, I have to pick and choose what passages I'm going to include out of the entire Bible, which means there's a whole host of texts that I'm going to choose not to use.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And I do not trust myself enough to then faithfully represent this is what the Bible has a say on love, knowing that I have to dice it up that way.
32:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: So to your point, it it is actually way easier in a lot of ways.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: This is what God has for us next.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: If I can be faithful in in representing what it is.
32:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I also want to, yeah.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: So there's that.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: That's not to say, sorry, I got a couple thoughts going on here.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: That's not to say that doing a four-week series on love would be wrong.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: It could be really helpful.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've taken breaks to address certain topics before.
32:53
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: And there's much more we could say in those four weeks than what we say in those four weeks.
32:59
SPEAKER_00: And the people who are listening have to put their trust in us as leaders to know this was a help this was a helpful way to look at the topic of love over four weeks.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: So that there's that.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Um I also want our church to be growing in their understanding of God's word as a whole, um, and to be biblically literate so that whenever we, you know, I we say, and this is not to demean anyone who doesn't know this or or coming to understand this, when I say Malachi says this, that that right away our heads go to like, oh, that was a prophet, and he was prophesying in this time period, and this is what was going on in the context.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: And we only do that, we we're only able to get to those places of learning that as we as we have the Bible um laid out in its entirety in front of us, week after week after week, as we go through it that way.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's that's a desire of mine personally as a a pastor and preacher to to see the Bible in its totality as we as we are growing in our love for God.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
34:08
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it so much that's how you approach things.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: Um I love it.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: What are some ways to Okay, so picture yourself sitting right on a Sunday morning, the pastor begins to preach.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: What are some ways to engage well with preaching as as you're on the receiving end?
34:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think it's gotta start before Sunday.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: Um before that moment, I should say.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so um this is something I do if I sit down and read my Bible too, is I I often start with a short prayer of God, what do you have for me in this?
34:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think our our Sunday mornings have to start with that too.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: God, what do you have for me in this?
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Um and and to begin listening with that in mind.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: What is here that I need to know more and more about who God is and what he has for me?
35:05
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's that.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Um I think it's to have my Bible open.
35:10
SPEAKER_00: I've said this multiple times.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: It's not a it's not a law, don't have to have it.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Um I I think it's really helpful to have a paper Bible in front of you.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: Um you see it in the context of where it is.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: I think even getting we're going through the book of Luke right now, I think even getting to the book of Luke, you're you're flipping past other books and you see them.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: You're you're aware of where they are in line with where the book of Luke is.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Um so you see that.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: I think that that's helpful.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: So you're engaged in where is this, where does it fit?
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Um and by the way, a paper bible is is I think less distracting than a device.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Device you have notifications and other things, people across the room from your township texting you about the score of the game, yeah, things like that.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Um so I think there's a an engagement there.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Um this is my hope, this is my encouragement to our church.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think a piece of engagement is some physical engagement with what's going on.
36:16
SPEAKER_00: To agree, to nod, to say amen, if there's a a point in the in the text or in the sermon that that is agreeable to you, that's hitting you in some way, to be an active listener, uh, to be attentive and and and uh engaged in what's happening, um uh yeah, present in them in the moment.
36:40
SPEAKER_00: But I think it starts way before the moment you step into the room.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: It starts before that to say, God, what do you have for me in this?
36:46
SPEAKER_00: Taking notes can be helpful for some people.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: For others, it's not at all.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: For others, it it's it that is a distraction.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: Taking notes is a distraction.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: Some people write in their Bibles, that's helpful for them.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Other people would never do that.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think there are a lot of different a lot of I I know people in our church who draw, who draw or doodle as they're considering what's being said.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: That can be helpful.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of different ways to engage in what's going on.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Um it's it's a discipline though.
37:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not we're not drawn to that necessarily.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we live in a fast-paced scroll through things kind of world.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: We don't we're not drawn to 45 minutes of sitting and listening.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's a discipline.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there is something about coming in with an expectation that God has something for you in the text.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: In in this sermon, God has something for you.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: Um that I think is in some ways kind of profound.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: For me.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: For you right now, this morning, right, right.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: So and and often it's something that has already been going on in your heart and life.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: Um that's when God gets my attention most often.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing, but coming through like six different sources all at the same time.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know other townships who I think yours does this, Eric, who talk about the text that we're going to look on Sunday before.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: So you're coming in with some engagement already because you've already you've already chewed on this some, you've read through it maybe the day before.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Rex puts out every week, he puts out a here's the text we're looking at, here's some things to be praying.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: I think coming in with a a readiness to receive what God has for you is is a piece of that too.
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm gonna do a couple, a few just quick fire questions I think that people might have, either having voiced or not voiced, and we'll see where this goes.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: Okay, number one.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, we've kind of hit some of the stuff already.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: I did that one.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: We've actually hit quite a bit before.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Okay, here's one.
38:53
SPEAKER_01: I have a hard time listening to a preacher because I know they send two.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: What's the relationship between the preacher, like character kind of stuff, and the truth that's preached?
39:05
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think it's a good question.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh the reason I pause is because I'm thinking about my own heart and life, and it uh what I don't want to do is answer the question in a way that's like patting myself on the back.
39:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, but something I think I've grown in over the years is being very aware of my own sin.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: I even as I'm preparing, I'm often not preparing during the week with someone else in mind, primarily.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Although that's- I just can't wait till they hear this.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're saying you don't do that.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: Although that does that does happen because I know people are walking through different things, and I think, oh, this is gonna be really helpful for this person.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: Often what I'm doing is, how does this hit me?
39:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think if a preacher is not coming to the Sunday morning gathering with most uh most prepared to share this is how this hit me and changed me and has wrecked me and has encouraged me and um caused me to confess where I need to confess and and work towards repentance where I need to do that.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh it if the preacher's not coming on a Sunday morning with that as primary, um, I think I'd have a really hard time listening as well.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: Now, I hope that's what I'm doing, and I hope that's what's being communicated.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure I can grow in that.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there are ways that it probably seems like, well, he's got his act together and he's just telling us what to do.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: Um that's not my hope.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I don't want to do that.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: I need I want to grow in that.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: I try to share stories about, hey, Kirsten and I were having this same conversation.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: It didn't go well.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm an idiot, you know.
40:52
SPEAKER_00: I try to share um my faults as much as I um as much as seems helpful um and ways that God's working on me through that as well.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't trust the preacher either, who never shares about how the word of God is impacting their own heart as well.
41:14
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if there's an opposite um challenge to that.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: I wonder if anybody wrestles with it's hard for me to hear a preacher when I know that they are actually wrestling with X, Y, or Z also personally.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so yeah.
41:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Um whether somebody really famous, you know, that has some moral failure, and then the questions come up, well, should I even listen to his sermons that he's preached in the past or not?
41:40
SPEAKER_01: But then down to our own local church, right?
41:42
SPEAKER_01: Like I know Vince and Eric and the guys, these guys are humans, they wrestle with all sorts of things.
41:47
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I wonder if that could be a challenge to some folks than to hear um the word of God preached from them.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Any any thoughts on that?
41:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's interesting.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: I I think I've shared this before in in other other contexts, but um for a long time uh they've since moved, so they're not they're not in our cul-de-sac.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: But there's a family in our cul-de-sac who Kirsten and I have gotten to had gotten to know.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: They were a little bit behind us in their family, so they had some kids who were younger than ours, but we were often in the cul-de-sac together.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: Um I'd gotten to know this guy really well.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: We'd we'd formed a little bit of a relationship.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: He saw me out in the in the cul-de-sac with our boys, um, and they showed up on a Sunday.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember if we'd invited them or not, I'd like to say we did, but I don't think we did.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: I think they showed up on a Sunday.
42:32
SPEAKER_00: And I was talking to him later that week, and he said, You know what I loved about being at your church?
42:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh the the Vince who I knew was also the one who was preaching.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Like what you what you said, I have seen in your life.
42:48
SPEAKER_00: That to me was the greatest compliment maybe I've ever received about uh my preaching because this is a guy who he didn't need to say that, but he's seen me.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that's my hope.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, if you know you know us, you've seen us, you understand, you've you've been around us, what you're hearing on Sunday is not different than what you hear in other times of the week.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: What I don't know if this has happened, I've never asked my family.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: Um I hope they don't hear a preacher vents and a dad vence or a husband.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that they're different.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: I hope that's the case.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't want to I don't know if I want to ask them.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I want the truth of the matter.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: But that's that's my hope.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: I want to be this is who I am, this is what God's doing in me.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: I'm I sin at times, you sin at times, we all need this.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: Let's work through this together.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: And that's what God does.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: He uses really broken vessels to communicate truth.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so here's my last question How can I encourage my young kids as they squirm during the sermon?
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know if I have great resources that you probably that you wouldn't know about that our listeners wouldn't know about, but um I I think the first thing I'd say is there's there's a lot of grace there.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Um I will say this.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: I've said that I think I've said this before.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Your ch your squirming children are not a distraction to me.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: And you mean that when you're I really do mean that.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: They're more of a distraction to you.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: And what's more distracting to me is is um seeing your nervousness about their distraction.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: That's more distracting to me, where I think, oh no, that parent is really nervous about how their child is being a distraction.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, what was your question?
44:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh so I think there's a lot of grace there.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: I think I think um knowing that you're you're what one of the greatest things that could be happening Sunday after Sunday for your child who's squirming is um building a consistency of this is what we do as a family.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: It might not be they're gaining deep truths about who God is week after week.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: It may be no that they're not doing that, but they know on Sunday morning at 8 15 we're getting in the car to do something that is of primary importance to our family.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: That might be the greatest thing that's happening.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: However, I will also say we I think we expect too little of our kids.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: They're getting um, they're getting insight week after week as they sit there and squirm.
45:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many times you've mentioned this to you before, Eric.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know how many times I've, you know, we're in the middle of the week and one of our boys says, Yeah, it's like what you said on Sunday, and they quote like word for word what I said.
45:50
SPEAKER_00: And it looked like they were Yeah, look like they were more interested in the world in like wrestling or brother, right?
45:56
SPEAKER_00: But they they hear it and um they're absorbing it.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they are absorbing it.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: And and so I think there's a lot of grace there.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: I think we need to give our kids um more um uh more credit than what we are giving them.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: They are taking it in.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't it doesn't this is my opinion.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: You may have a different opinion as a family, but uh if they need to draw, let them draw.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: If they need to bring uh something to to engage, let them do that.
46:26
SPEAKER_00: I would say though, um check in with them to make sure that what the what that what what they see on a Sunday is um uh of in some way, they they understand that that's the priority, whether or not they believe it at the time.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Um uh so here's this this may step on some toes.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: Um I don't mean it to do that.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: But uh but what I wouldn't encourage is bring a whole stack of other books for your kids to read through while we're sitting in the in the sermon because they don't care about this, read this instead.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: Um I I would check in and say, no, no, no, this is what we're doing.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: We're engaged in this.
47:07
SPEAKER_00: If you want to draw pictures about it, great.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: But this isn't about something else.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: This is about this, and this is what we're looking at.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: And then I would say, um, don't just focus on that Sunday morning.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: See it as a week-long sort of activity to bring those things up again, to ask questions that may be asked.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: I often will try to ask questions.
47:26
SPEAKER_00: You do this too, Eric.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Ask questions in the sermon.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: Write those down, ask your kids about them later, engage with that.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: Lauren has started to started to put together the the outlines.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: I get it, I get my outlines to her the week previous, and she's printing them out and and has space for kids to do that.
47:43
SPEAKER_00: Help your kids do it, help your kids take notes, engage with him throughout the week on those things.
47:48
SPEAKER_01: Because we see God's word as so central to our liturgy on a Sunday morning and what we do as corporate worship that God uses Yes, because it shapes us, it changes us, it it grows our affections for him.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully that wraps it all the way back around.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me today, Vince.
48:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm uh thanks for being the illustrious host.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, next week we're gonna look at some more questions and answers that were sent in.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: So hopefully you can join us then as well.
48:15
SPEAKER_01: But thanks for listening.
48:16
SPEAKER_01: Bye.