Latest / The Diary of a CFO / Stepping into a new CFO role and getting up to speed (with 2x CFO Matt Ziegler)

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Stepping into a new CFO role and getting up to speed (with 2x CFO Matt Ziegler) · The Diary of a CFO

0:02
Hello, and welcome back to the diary of the CFO.
0:05
Today, I'm super excited to have with me Matt
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Ziegler. He's a CFO of GovExec, a company providing
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sales and marketing solutions to government contractors.
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Matt manages finance, sales ops, and IT. And
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so, so excited to have you, Matt, here. I know
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this is your second role as a CFO, so tell us
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more. Thanks, Wasee. Good morning. My second
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run, my first run, well, I'll just give you a
0:29
background on myself. I mean, I've mostly been
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an FP &A in my career. So I've supported $50
0:33
million organizations and multi -billion dollar
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organizations. And I ran corporate FP &A when
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AOL spun off from Time Warner. So I'm comfortable
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with very large organizations. Although I don't
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know everyone's names at that point, which is
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sometimes a challenge. So my first CFO gig, I
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came into a hospitality tech firm right before
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COVID started. Got a battlefield promotion in
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June 2020 to CFO. Tried to bob and weave as the
1:00
company, tried to learn the new rules and then
1:02
the newer rules as all the things moved around
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from getting grants from the government to figuring
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out what the new remote work policy should be.
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Back in June, I joined GovExec. So I'm about
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90 days in as of actually as of tomorrow. It's
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been really exciting. I mean, my first job, as
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I said, I was promoted into the role. So I knew
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the business, I knew the team, I knew a lot of
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information already. And so this is my first
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kind of onboarding as a CFO. And it's been a
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good journey so far. Awesome, awesome. So what
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are some things that... you will say were easier
1:41
the first time. I know you just mentioned you
1:42
were in the company, in the industry. What are
1:45
some things that maybe caught you off guard in
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this first 90 days? GovExec is a complicated
1:52
business that provides a whole spread of different
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kinds of services to its customers from media,
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to research, to surveys, to events, to custom
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content, to data. So just a lot of different
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business models, right? So my prior company was
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a smaller company, it was really one business
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model, a SaaS model. So a SaaS model is easy
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to understand, easy to model, right? There's
2:13
only a few factors in terms of churn and new
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bookings. Whereas this company has multiple business
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models, different kinds of customer needs. And
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so that was the biggest thing that was really
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new to me. Coming up in FP &A, have to be quickly
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understand the business and how it works. That's
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kind of job running FP &A. So that part, I was
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used to, but there was certainly a lot more pieces
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to learn coming to a much more complicated business.
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What are some of the things that accelerated
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your knowledge of the business? Because, you
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know, now that you have several business models,
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how did you connect with people? Like, how did
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you accelerate your learning there? I actually
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gave 30 days notice leaving my last firm. And
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so kind of compromise was I... started onboarding
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before I even left my old firm. So I had several
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meetings with my CEO, some of my key peers, several
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of my directs. And so even by day one, I mean,
3:11
they sent me, you know, board decks and, you
3:13
know, all these things. So I was able to get
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a pretty good idea of what I was walking into
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by day one. And that really helped a lot. I really
3:20
encouraged that. I mean, it was, you know, 30
3:22
days I thought was appropriate as a CFO. to give
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that notice. But it also gave me time to be flexible,
3:30
to have some conversations with my new employer.
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And that helped a lot. I felt like I was walking
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in with a much higher sense of what I need to
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do, where the problems are. And I was also able
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to talk to my predecessor, which also helped.
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So that doesn't always happen. So I was definitely
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lucky in that regard. He was retiring. It's not
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always the case you get to talk to your predecessor,
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right? Yes, I had that privilege to be able to
4:00
talk to my predecessor and he gave me a handover
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document. He gave me his phone number. I was
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like, so grateful because this is my first CFO
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role. So I was like, okay, all the help I can
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get. And it's helpful to know what their to -do
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list was. Everyone has a to -do list they just
4:16
haven't gotten to yet, right? So if you kind
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of probe there, it's like, what would you have
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done in the next year? That gives me a good sense
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of what business needed or still needs. Not that
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that becomes your own to -do list immediately,
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but obviously considerations for the future.
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That's a great insight, too, for those who come
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in and may not know what to ask the predecessor.
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These kind of questions definitely help. That's
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what I found. Coming in day one, I had a pretty
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clear idea of... what the business needed, what
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the team needed. You know, when I started with
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the onboarding process, they were very clear
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about simplicity and scale being what the company
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needed, right? So being able to, the company
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has acquired several companies last few years.
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And so there's been some, not full integration,
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some integration of course, but not complete
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integration. So finishing some of that is kind
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of also part of the impetus for here's what you
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need to focus on. Let's get these things finished.
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So you can build a foundation for the next level
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of growth for our investors. Were you also overseeing
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IT and sales ops where you were or just just
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finance? No, no, I have all three. So I have
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all three. I just picked up IT two weeks ago,
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so I'm still learning that piece as well. IT
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is really interesting because in one way it definitely
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is a control function. Right? Like how you think
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about security and access and even things like
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procurement. Like, you know, do you allow people
5:45
to buy whatever they want or do you require them
5:47
to only buy this model of laptop, right? To make
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the service easier. So, you know, that's definitely
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a step beyond what I have managed before. I managed
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HR, I managed sales ops before, but I'm really
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enjoying getting to know IT and I like to learn.
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I like to learn new things. So, IT is definitely
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an area where as much as maybe even more than
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finance, it's a balancing act, right? Like you
6:11
could be, you have to find a balance between
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what is the business, what can the business support?
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You could have very tight IT controls where you
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basically can't do anything without getting IT's
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permission as a user, right? You can only buy
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one thing and everything's very centralized,
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but you know, the business would struggle, right,
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to be under such restrictions. So you've got
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to find what is the appropriate balance between
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you know, complete freedom for the business to
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do what it wants to do to drive growth and, you
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know, policies that are, you know, always well
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intended, but sometimes maybe a little too restrictive
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based on that exact business's needs. So just
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to, I'm learning about that sort of, I hate to
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call it a battle, but I mean, it is sort of a
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battle, right? The right balance, balance of
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power, let's say. Yes. And I'm seeing more CFOs
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taking on IT as well. Like before it was like
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finance and accounting, but now it's almost feel
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like scope creep, right? You get IT and some
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HR. Like, do you feel the same way that when
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you started your career, did you see a lot of
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CFOs overseeing IT versus now? I saw some, but
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I would say more the CTO would have IT and in
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larger companies, HR would report directly to
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the CEO. I've seen HR, I managed HR at my last
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firm, and it's very interesting. It's a whole
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different perspective on the company, and there's
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also a controls element, so it makes sense to
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have a report to the CFO, but people are challenging,
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right? You never know how they're going to react.
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I think there's a tendency, at least for myself
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as a CFO working with a CEO, it's like, well,
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I see all the pieces on the board. And I know
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what needs to happen to make them all more successful.
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You can get a little bit inflated, you know,
8:00
sense of self, right? To say, well, I know what
8:02
all these things need to happen. If all these
8:04
people just do what I told them to do, everything
8:05
will be great. But all those pieces, you know,
8:08
are people obviously, right? So, you know, you
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need to figure out how to communicate and how
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to, you know, provide that sense of here's why
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we're doing it this way. Here's where we're heading.
8:18
Here's why it makes sense as a company, right?
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So there's... that sense of over communication
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that coming up there FTA over communication was
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not a strength right it was like budgeting and
8:30
strategic projects like it was more who was in
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the know who was allowed to know this project
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we're working on it's only four people who are
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working with HR who are just the opposite right
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where you're supposed to communicate to you know
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as widely as possible and give people the why
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so that's been a learning for me but I don't
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have HR my current role but just something I
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learned in my last role. Hoping not to jinx yourself
8:52
either. But you bring up a good point, which
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is when you start your career in finance and
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accounting, so whether you came through FPNA
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or accounting, you don't really think about those
9:06
people's skills you're going to need later on
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in your career, right? Because you're in your
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silo, you're in your team, you're using jargon
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like a cruel reserve. You don't have to explain
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that to anybody. And it's like, okay, VP or finance
9:18
CFO, and you really need those soft skills. So
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can you tell us a bit more about how did you
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learn? How did you adjust? Because that's, that's
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probably not in your educational background,
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if I can say. You're right. I mean, coming up
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through FP &A, I mean, the largest team that
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I managed was 20 people, half in Bangalore and
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half in Virginia, but they were all, again, FP
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&A people, right? So we all spoke the same language
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effectively, right? and going beyond that, it
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is a challenge when you're managing people where
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you haven't experienced what they've experienced.
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If I said to somebody, close the books 20 % faster,
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I've never closed the books. I don't really know
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what's involved with that. I mean, I know what's
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involved, but I don't know all the specific steps
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where they're like, it couldn't possibly be done
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20 % faster, maybe 5 % faster, right? And then
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it becomes a challenge of, well, What would it
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take? Like what would other people in the business
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have to do differently to accomplish what I just
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suggested, right? Like it may be possible, but
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it'll only if other people also change, right?
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And so one of the things that I try to guide
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my team to is our other areas where we're accepting,
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I have to say subpar, but we're accepting the
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inputs other teams give us and just accepting
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that they're never going to change. the timing
10:38
and the quality, whatever, whether it's the planning
10:40
process, the accounting process, the HR process,
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any process, right? We're just accepting that
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those things are never going to change. And once
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you get to the CFO, you can be a little more
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like, they're going to change, don't worry. We're
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going to change that, right? We're going to,
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those processes, nope, no, we're going to, we're
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going to, I got your back, right? So back to
11:01
your question though, it is a challenge to learn
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how to manage teams where you don't know how
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they've operated. And actually, my last company
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was a bit of mixed blessing that I inherited
11:12
a really strong accounting team because we were
11:14
in COVID. So I have so many other challenges
11:16
to work on that I didn't learn as much about
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accounting as I probably should have because
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they had it, right? They were really skilled.
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They've been doing it for a long time at this
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company. And so I didn't have to dive in on accounting.
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I just accepted that it worked and I moved on.
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Whereas now I would say, just in retrospect,
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I should know the functions better than I do.
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learning what your team, in terms of communication,
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you know, I do weekly one -on -ones, but also
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biweekly skip levels. And so that helps me learn
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a little more about the team and what they're
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interested in. Like I really probe on, like,
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where are you heading? Like, what are you looking
11:53
to do next, right? Like right now you're the
11:56
head of billing, right? Well, what do you do
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in the next role, right? And how can I help you
12:02
develop the skills? and the knowledge. And so
12:05
that's also learning for me, right? So I learn
12:08
more about the billing process by just understanding
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what they're doing and where they want to go.
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And I really recommend that because A, the feedback
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that I get is like, I mean, I hate to be too
12:19
self -serving, but it's valuable. It's valuable
12:21
for me to have that. I care about you and your
12:25
career mentality, right? It's valuable for attention.
12:28
It's valuable for the company. And it's good
12:30
for my learning, right? To learn more about people.
12:33
and learn more about what they're interested
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in, and things that wouldn't have occurred to
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me, just as my team gets larger and I have a
12:41
more broader spectrum of skills on the team.
12:45
That kind of questioning, and some people are
12:48
very open to that, but people have never been
12:50
asked that question before in their career by
12:52
their manager or their manager. And I find that
12:55
a little depressing, actually. It's like, do
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you want to show any interest in your career?
13:02
I've had very supportive managers, but on the
13:05
other hand, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.
13:07
So it was maybe easier to support me because
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I knew I could tell you exactly where I was going,
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right? So someone who doesn't know needs a little
13:15
more, you know, kind of hand holding and support.
13:18
Yes, but it also speaks to how sometimes we are
13:22
promoted to management because of our technical
13:24
skill. Then we get them. We don't have how to
13:26
be a manager. We don't have that kind of leadership
13:29
training. And in turns, we can become bad bosses,
13:32
right? And not ask people those right questions.
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And it's really sad, like you said, very depressing
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sometimes. There's definitely the people skill
13:41
element is something that, for example, having
13:44
a manager 101 course is really important, right?
13:47
You know, just your firm's time as a manager,
13:49
and it should be taught by people at the company,
13:52
right? People that have been, you can hire a
13:54
consultant and they definitely know some of the
13:57
buzzwords and all that, but people that actually
13:59
have been through it at the company that you're
14:00
going to work with every day, I find is the right
14:03
approach, right? And then I had people in my
14:06
last company that, you know, they aspire to be
14:08
managers. And I said, okay, well, I'm happy to
14:11
give you the same training. that the other people
14:13
are getting because you're going to need it sooner
14:15
or later. Right. And so that was always my goal
14:18
to have that. And I haven't even looked at this
14:21
company yet. If we have the same kind of thing,
14:23
it hasn't been that high on my list. But now
14:25
that I see it, I am curious as a manager or managers,
14:29
then it's difficult. Like we just got our semiannual
14:33
reviews coming out, like the review process.
14:35
And I need to really encourage my team, my managers.
14:39
to care about it, right? Not caring, but they're
14:43
very busy, right? And so it's like, how much
14:47
effort should I put into this? And I need to
14:49
set the example I have yet to, but I need to
14:53
set the example that you do need to care about
14:55
this, right? This isn't important, not because
14:58
HR wants you to do it, although that is important,
15:00
but also because if you're not in touch with
15:03
what your team is doing, particularly when everyone's
15:05
remote. That's at the whole new level. 10 years
15:09
ago, if someone wasn't happy, I could just walk
15:11
by their desk and I could see the unhappiness
15:14
in their face. So it becomes much more important
15:17
to have those kind of check -in, whether it's
15:20
a formal review or not, to be especially become
15:23
a manager of managers. You need to reinforce
15:26
that kind of and model that kind of behavior.
15:30
If anyone's watching this, I promise that we'll
15:32
get on right away. Yes. I mean, your plate every
15:39
day, I have something added and nothing removed
15:42
from my to do list. Right. You come in, you have
15:45
five things to do. You end the day. There is
15:48
10. So being able to connect with your manager
15:51
is important, but then how do you. ease that
15:55
transition, right? Because the first time manager
15:57
doesn't have the same challenges as being a manager
16:01
of managers, right? Especially in finance and
16:04
accounting. Can you tell us a bit more about
16:06
what that transition was for you when you first
16:09
became a manager and then when you became like
16:11
director, manager of managers? Oftentimes you
16:15
just manage starting out like one or two people
16:18
at most, right? And so it's very easy to do it.
16:21
You spend a lot of time with them. You may have
16:23
known them already, right? And so you kind of
16:25
know some of their personality issues and, you
16:27
know, what they're good at, what they're not
16:29
so good at, what they like, what they don't like.
16:31
And so as a manager, you can almost take too
16:34
much of that in, right? You're working with them
16:37
much as, oh, well, Fred doesn't like when I schedule
16:40
meetings after four. So I'm going to try to schedule
16:42
meetings after four, where your next employee,
16:45
you may not know that, right? So you have to,
16:48
you know, consider that, I think. But as you
16:50
become a manager of managers, then the delegation
16:54
is really challenging in some cases. At this
16:58
point, I have people who manage, manage, manage.
17:02
So there's three levels, right? So I mean, it's
17:04
even more like, okay, what are you working on?
17:08
The thing I struggle with, honestly, Wasee, is
17:11
can I just look at your calendar? Can you just
17:14
tell me where all your time is being spent? And
17:16
let me fix that. Maybe it's working for my stuff.
17:19
Maybe it's meetings of people's schedule. Maybe
17:22
it's you're too much in the weeds of what your
17:24
team is doing, and you need to delegate to them
17:27
in order to let them learn. I don't like to ever
17:31
ask that question, but I always want to. It's
17:33
like, can I just look at your calendar? Can we
17:35
just address it? Because there's something that
17:39
needs fixing where you're not using, and I'm
17:42
the same way. I'm sure my boss had the same feedback
17:44
looking at my calendar. I feel like that how
17:46
you use your time and how you delegate to people
17:49
and just respect the fact that you have to let
17:51
them do the project and come back to you as opposed
17:54
to you don't need to be on the project team.
17:57
You want to be in every meeting, you have to
17:58
be in every check -in, right? You're not going
18:00
to get anywhere if you're in everything, right?
18:03
You're just going to be stuck. So educating people
18:06
about that approach and modeling it equally importantly
18:10
is I think really important when you get to be
18:13
a manager or managers, right? Is that you're
18:15
You don't need to be in all the meetings and
18:16
you shouldn't be in all the meetings because
18:18
your team isn't, isn't able to grow as a result.
18:21
If you're the most senior person in the meeting,
18:24
probably speak a fair amount of the time, right?
18:26
You know, it's just nature, right? It's like,
18:28
oh, well, let me give you my opinion on that.
18:31
I don't need your opinion on that. Yeah. And
18:35
they may not even be able to speak or actually
18:37
say what they wanted to say, because now they're
18:40
like, who, what is the boss going to think? Right.
18:43
So. It is a delicate balance. And it's even harder
18:47
on my FP &A team, I think. This is my first budget
18:50
cycle in 20 years where I haven't been the person
18:53
running it day to day, right? And now my head
18:55
of FP &A is doing it. Yeah, I saw the post. Yeah,
18:58
exactly. I mean, it's harder than when my kids
19:00
went to school because, I mean, I'm just so used
19:02
to, like, I need to step back and I'm not...
19:06
I'm not that great at it, to be honest with you.
19:08
It's like, oh, I know what this is. I know what
19:10
we need here. I know what this needs. It's stepping
19:12
back from something you've done for so long and
19:15
letting someone else run it and show you what
19:17
they've learned because, you know, they've learned
19:19
different things than you, right? And they've
19:20
had different skills they can bring. It is hard
19:23
to learn about new teams, but it's also hard
19:25
to give up the thing that brought you where you
19:27
are today, right? That's where that set of skills
19:30
was. I'm struggling too with that because I came
19:34
from the controllership. So I came from CPA controllers,
19:39
so I'm all about internal controls. And now that
19:42
I did head FP &A at some point, but back in my
19:46
mind is that CPA internal controls controller.
19:49
So I'm all in that accounting function. Like,
19:52
yes, let's get to it. So I'm wondering from your
19:54
standpoint, since you came up from the FP &A
19:58
route to now CFO, how is it dealing with the
20:02
accounting team? Because I know now you said
20:04
it's hard to let go of FP &A. So how are you
20:08
doing it with accounting? Like I said, my last
20:11
firm, I inherited a great team. I didn't focus
20:14
on it as much. At this firm, we're building out
20:17
the team. It's a combination of in -source and
20:20
outsource actually. So it's working. That's good.
20:23
You know, there's always coming into new firm.
20:27
There's so many things to learn. And so like
20:29
you can imagine a business that has a lot of
20:31
different business models. has all different
20:34
RevRec policies as well. Like there's not just
20:36
one policy, there's one for each business and
20:38
different kinds of customers. And so this is
20:41
an example. That's something where I need to
20:43
spend more time on to say, well, I'm not trying
20:46
to challenge how you did it, but I do need to
20:49
understand the why. I feel I'm just accepting
20:51
that it's right is not good enough. I need you
20:54
to explain it to me. and honestly is a layman,
20:58
right? I've never been an accountant, I don't
20:59
have a CPA, right? So, you know, I'm not gonna
21:01
understand all the technical, well, the SEC ruled
21:04
this and blah, blah, right? It's like, just help
21:06
me understand the practical, why do we do it
21:09
this way? Because I have to explain to somebody
21:12
else, like there will be times when I'm presenting
21:14
the results and be like, well, why did the revenue
21:17
do that? And I was like, oh, because we have
21:20
this policy which says, dum, dum, dum, right?
21:22
And I have to be able to... explain it, right?
21:24
And, you know, and look credible while I do it,
21:26
right? So I find that working with accounting
21:30
or any new team that I didn't work with, it's
21:32
really about understanding their deliverables
21:34
and what they need to be successful, right? So
21:37
accounting, of course, primarily is the monthly
21:39
and then the annual deliverables and what do
21:41
they need? What are they not getting? Where are
21:44
they being challenged? Like going back to the
21:45
closed process, you know, I've had, I've worked
21:47
with, even before I was the head of a CFO, you
21:50
know, just I worked with accounting teams quite
21:51
a bit. sometimes they wouldn't get key information
21:55
from the business team until day one, day two,
21:57
day three. And it's like, well, obviously the
22:00
closed cycle gets held up as a result because
22:02
the business team isn't providing key information
22:06
when frankly the day minus one information would
22:10
have been good enough, right? I mean, we didn't
22:12
learn that much from day minus one and day two
22:14
that we could have delivered it on day minus
22:16
one and gotten there faster. So as CFO, really,
22:20
you are facilitating and helping remove all the
22:24
roadblocks from your team so that they can be
22:26
their best, essentially. That is the goal, right?
22:29
Where you prioritize the time and how you spend
22:31
and which roadblocks and how much to remove them
22:34
is one of my biggest challenges now. It's like
22:37
there's so many parts of my team working on so
22:39
many different projects and so many different
22:41
key business deliverables, right? And they all
22:46
have... blockers to a certain extent. I mean,
22:48
you can always have more talent, more resources,
22:52
more tools, more time, more support, whatever,
22:56
right? But it's hard to get any or all of those
22:58
things sometimes, right? So, you know, trying
23:00
to figure out which team's problem I need to
23:02
focus on and, in some cases, burn some political
23:06
capital. We have to make a change. And some of
23:09
my colleagues aren't going to be happy about
23:10
this change, you know, but this is what we need
23:13
to get to the simplicity and scale that... I've
23:15
been asked to deliver. So I'm standing there
23:18
blockers and I'm sure there are many blockers
23:21
that they have, but I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't
23:23
help you with that one right now. I have nothing
23:26
to add, right? I mean, we have to live with it
23:28
a little while longer. I mean, it's just a cycle
23:31
of finance and accounting, right? There is always
23:33
something going on. There's always a reporting
23:36
that's due. Every time you look around, it feels
23:38
like, okay, more work. How do you balance, you
23:43
know, in your first 90 days, things that you
23:45
should start doing or stop doing? Do you start
23:48
a new project or are there things like, like,
23:50
do not do this in your first 90 days as a CFO?
23:54
I mean, my biggest win was putting the team in
23:58
the right positions, right? And so I was, I was,
24:02
I had a couple of things going for me, right?
24:03
So first of all, I mentioned I had that sort
24:05
of free onboarding, because even before I hadn't
24:08
left yet, I had some key conversations where
24:10
I could kind of think about what was needed.
24:13
When I got here, I was very happy to find it
24:15
wasn't a question of that I had underperforming
24:18
talent. The talent was good, right? And the third
24:20
benefit, which I only thought about until recently,
24:23
is if I'm bringing my FP &A knowledge or what
24:27
I've experienced with sales ops or collections
24:29
or whatever prior company to a new company, I
24:33
don't really need to consult a lot of people
24:35
to say, what is the collections team need to
24:38
bring to be successful here at this company?
24:40
Or what does the FP &A team need to bring, right?
24:43
It's a pretty universal thing that we need to
24:45
bring to companies to be successful, right? So
24:48
that's very translatable where sales ops is a
24:51
little more complicated because the sales teams
24:53
are different, products are different. But the
24:56
other parts of my business are very translatable.
24:59
So it wasn't a question of really how do I think
25:02
about how to bring value in accounting, right?
25:05
It's, I know what that value looks like, right?
25:08
And since I had, I felt that I had the right
25:10
people, the results, but there was some reorganization
25:13
that was needed to give them a clear view of
25:16
what their role was, what their go -forward projects
25:19
look like, and then how to organize the team
25:21
so it was a little more scalable than before.
25:24
And so that was really my first focus is, are
25:27
there gaps on the team? There was one. that person's
25:30
first day is today. I'm very excited to have
25:32
him start. So I'm 90 days in. I actually worked
25:35
with this guy before. So I mean, I knew, I knew
25:37
the gap. I'd filled it before with similar resources,
25:41
reached out to him actually before I even started
25:43
the job and said, I think I'm going to have a
25:45
job for you if you want it. So that was helpful
25:48
to have that, you know, network tap into to say,
25:51
who would you meet that have good kinds of skills
25:53
and hopefully they want to work with you again.
25:55
Right. And so, you know, this might be a job
25:59
for him. That was my main focus, getting the
26:01
team organized and also there hadn't been like
26:05
an all CFO team meeting before. There hadn't
26:08
been bi -weekly skip levels before. So some of
26:11
those things were just bringing in a new perspective
26:14
on this is what a CFO organization looks like.
26:17
And so having me talk about what I focus on,
26:20
how I work, my quirks and how I work, everyone
26:23
has them. It was valuable, I hope, to my team
26:26
to hear directly from me in a... town hall for
26:29
the CFO organization, if you will. Getting the
26:32
team organized and aligned and thinking about
26:34
how to drive growth definitely was the first
26:37
project I would absolutely recommend. And then
26:39
the second, of course, is if you are coming into
26:43
a brand new industry, actually I was, but having
26:46
the FP &A background, I've been very quickly
26:49
digesting business models and what they need
26:52
all throughout my career. So I think I'm pretty
26:54
good at it. But in some cases that might be the
26:57
second is if you don't understand and you can't
27:01
articulate, if you couldn't stand up at a customer
27:03
conference as a CFO and talk about the business
27:07
and talk about the value and talk about the products,
27:10
right? Then you shouldn't be the CFO, right?
27:13
Like you may not be able to speak for an hour.
27:15
You should be able to speak for at least 10 minutes
27:18
on why this company drives value. Why do customers
27:22
come back, right? And why do they like the...
27:24
what business, what they get out of it. So I've
27:27
been trying to go to customer conferences and
27:30
events. And again, I'm lucky in that this company
27:32
has those kinds of things. Not every, obviously
27:34
not every customer, every company does. You might
27:37
have to get on sales calls. Maybe you don't even
27:39
announce yourself as the CFO, right? Cause that
27:42
sends a whole different tone of the conversation,
27:45
of course, if you're on a customer call, right?
27:47
But you have to listen to the... what the customers
27:50
are saying and hear what the challenges that
27:53
they're trying to face are. So you fully understand
27:56
what this business's purpose is. And so you can
28:00
help it achieve more of that thing or question,
28:04
are we achieving what we thought we were achieving,
28:06
right? So that sort of business understanding
28:09
and hearing from the customers and what they
28:12
want, I think is really important. And every
28:14
business is different in how you would accomplish
28:16
that, but you got to find a way to do it. Awesome.
28:19
Awesome. Like you said, first, making sure your
28:23
team, your structure is right. And then secondly,
28:26
how you are building your team. Now, in terms
28:29
of your personal life, right? Because there will
28:32
be a lot going on at work because you're starting
28:35
this new role. What are some things maybe on
28:37
the personal side that kind of helped you do
28:39
that? Did you have monthly massage? Like, what
28:42
are you doing on the side to keep your sanity
28:45
as you're going through your first 90 days? Well,
28:49
I guess I'm luckier than I think, looking back
28:51
on all these different elements that have come
28:53
to this point in my career. So, as I alluded
28:56
to, my kids are in college. I'm an empty nester.
28:59
My wife and I are empty nesters, right? And so,
29:01
you know, I don't have the specific time constraints
29:05
where I've got to go to the soccer game or I've
29:07
got to go to the ballet or whatever, or even
29:10
just picking up and dropping them off, right?
29:11
So I try to respect the fact that my younger
29:13
colleagues still have those things. Okay, there
29:17
you go. And I mean, I remember when I had them,
29:18
I have two kids. I remember those days. Part
29:21
of my challenge is I've told my team very clearly,
29:24
you don't need to work the way I work. I might
29:27
be online half a day on Sunday, and sometimes
29:31
I send the messages on delay. They show up on
29:33
Monday morning and sometimes I forget or I don't,
29:37
right? But I've tried to be clear, like you don't
29:39
need to be online Sunday because I'm online on
29:41
Sunday, right? And then I might decide to go
29:43
for a walk Tuesday afternoon at three because
29:45
it's a nice day. there's a working from home,
29:49
I think if I was working in the office all the
29:51
time, I would definitely have more of those,
29:53
maybe not massages, but something like that,
29:55
that were helping me. But you know, working at
29:57
home all the time, the work -life line is erased,
30:00
right? And so, but what I do then is I, you know,
30:04
I have had Thursdays where it's like, I've got
30:08
a free hour, I'm going to go back to the book
30:09
I was reading. You know, it's like, I don't have
30:11
a meeting for an hour. I'm going to take some
30:14
time off, right? Because I'm pretty confident
30:16
I'll be working Saturday afternoon or the big
30:18
project is coming tomorrow, I know, or you know,
30:21
whatever, right? So trying to find that balance
30:23
where I take time off where I can to sort of
30:27
decompress and go for a walk or whatever, work
30:30
out, right? Those are sort of the things that
30:33
I do. But, you know, like I said, I try to tell
30:35
my team, many of them are trying to focus on
30:38
that nine to five because they have, you know,
30:40
activities, things with their family. I respect
30:43
that. Like I said, I was there. So that's the
30:45
hardest thing I think is, or most important maybe
30:48
is you don't need to do, you don't need to mirror
30:50
what I do because you're getting an email from
30:52
me Sunday afternoon. It doesn't mean you have
30:54
to answer in the next half an hour or whatever,
30:56
right? It can just, and I try, I really do try
30:59
to, even when I go out that on Sunday, it was
31:00
like for Monday, right? Yes. Delay, delay delivery.
31:06
Exactly. Because I try, I do try to do that because
31:08
I know that there's a, some people have the,
31:11
Oh, it must be important if you send it to me.
31:13
It's like, no, I'll just want to. That's just
31:14
when I chose to work. But hopefully if you're
31:17
not working on Sundays, which is fine, hopefully
31:20
you're not reading books on Thursday afternoon
31:22
either, right? Yes, yes. Understanding that the
31:29
role of the CFO is not just about the numbers,
31:31
right? You have to know, like you said, being
31:33
able to stand and talk about the business model,
31:36
being able to build a team that's leadership.
31:38
So that's business strategy and all these things.
31:41
What are some advice that you will give to aspiring
31:44
CFO, aspiring people, whether they're in accounting,
31:46
in finance, like what are some of the things
31:48
that should be doing along the way? The thing
31:51
that I would recommend is twofold. One, I already
31:55
spoke to, it's like understanding your team and
31:58
where they want to go. What are they trying to
32:00
accomplish? What are they focusing on? And also
32:04
just it's a little more challenging, maybe, you
32:07
know, you can't be too direct in how you ask
32:10
about their personal life, but just understand
32:12
it a little bit. You know, you just try to pick
32:14
up on those clues, which is like, Okay, good.
32:17
She has kids, good to know. And you talk about
32:19
those things, right? I mean, I mean, those are
32:21
shared experiences, right? So, but you try to
32:24
talk about in a way that is not suggesting that
32:27
they're doing the wrong thing in their work life
32:29
balance. So it's like, Oh, that's great. You
32:31
know, you went to a ballet rehearsal or ballet
32:34
performance last night. That's fantastic, how'd
32:36
it go, right? Did she respond, right? But then
32:39
in the work side, I'm going to say order to cash,
32:42
right? Order to cash to me is the area where
32:45
converting prospects to customers, revenue to
32:48
cash, but then also making sure you're building
32:51
good recurring relationships. It touches so much
32:54
of what we do with CFOs, especially if you have
32:57
multiple ops. The aspiration of the sales ops
33:00
team should be is that they do everything that
33:04
the sales team could possibly do, except actually
33:07
contact customers, right? But everything else
33:09
they do is sales and ailments, sales support,
33:12
sales collateral, right? All those things that
33:14
they could be doing to make the sales team more
33:16
effective, providing data, you know, looking
33:18
at the pipeline, providing guidance, sometimes
33:21
providing a little kick in the butt. It's like,
33:23
you know, this reps pipeline performance is a
33:26
lot worse than these other people. understanding
33:29
how quickly you convert prospects to customers,
33:32
because all of that is a marketing policy you're
33:34
incurring where you have salespeople that are
33:36
being paid just to nurture a relationship as
33:40
opposed to closing a deal and moving on to the
33:43
next phase. And then your ability to recognize
33:45
revenue and then pluck the cash is obviously
33:48
a key part of what the CFO organization does.
33:52
But then also... in your team to think about
33:55
that recurring relationship. Well, you want to
33:57
be the kind of company that your customers want
33:59
to do business with two, three, four, 19 times
34:02
down the road, right? And part of how they engage
34:06
with our team, the CFO team, is going to be part
34:08
of that decision that they make. Making sure
34:11
the tools are easy to understand, the process
34:13
is easy to understand, right? We may not be directly
34:16
overseeing the onboarding process or implementation
34:20
process if there is one. But we should definitely
34:23
understand it very, very clearly because it's
34:26
one of those many pieces in that chain of order
34:28
to cash. And I want to collapse that as much
34:31
as possible. I'm making an investment in sales
34:33
and marketing. I want to recoup that investment
34:36
in terms of cash in the door as soon as possible.
34:39
I would really encourage all people that want
34:41
to be the CFO to really understand that process.
34:45
And there's a lot of tools being developed to
34:47
improve it. I mean, there's a lot of innovation
34:49
in the space where you look at new software coming
34:53
out and you're like, I really think that would
34:55
work for us. So part of my job is to be aware
35:00
of those improvements in the space and say, will
35:03
this be right for us? This may be a tool we should
35:06
look at to make our billing process more effective.
35:08
Nice, nice. And so with order to cash and...
35:12
you brought up very good point, the difference
35:14
between revenue and cash. Like they're not the
35:17
same, but a lot of people, especially out, I
35:21
don't know if it's outside of finance and accounting,
35:23
like we get it, but then you have to explain
35:26
to the business maybe like, what is the difference
35:29
between those two? What are those things that,
35:31
Hey, we should be explaining it better to the
35:34
rest of the organization so they understand,
35:37
like, what are some of the things maybe you've
35:39
done to help the business understand where you
35:41
were coming from as a finance person? In my last
35:45
firm, I mentioned that hospitality tech was obviously
35:47
very challenged during COVID. So we had a lot
35:50
of customers that were delinquent, right? And
35:53
at some point, the AR team, the collection team,
35:56
you know, their ability to move the needle on
35:59
those accounts that are maybe 90 days or more
36:01
past due, It is minimal, right? Like they've
36:05
already sent out all the cadences and all the
36:07
playbooks. And at that point, you either you
36:09
write it off or, you know, you send to send to
36:12
collections or maybe you keep working. Right.
36:15
One of the most interesting balances that I think
36:18
is it's hard to find, but it's important to find
36:21
is if you have larger accounts, not every company
36:24
has this, but my last company, my current company,
36:26
there's a very good relationship between the
36:29
sales rep. and the customer, right? There's a
36:31
lot of conversations about what is needed and
36:34
then the delivery of that product at the end
36:35
of the day. And so you develop that kind of,
36:38
well, the finance team probably wouldn't, but
36:40
the sales and delivery team has a rapport with
36:43
the customer. So you have to figure out how to
36:45
engage that rapport and say, well, can you ask
36:48
the customer, can you ask where we are? Why are
36:51
they not paying? Are they unhappy? Did they not
36:54
get a PO? Is something, is there some approval
36:57
they're missing, right? working with the sales
37:00
and delivery team to be your eyes and ears to
37:03
say, and I don't mean for every deal, what's
37:05
some of the larger and more complicated deals?
37:07
It's like, can you help us out here? And it's
37:10
a tricky balance for them. And also for me as
37:12
a CFO, because frankly, I want the sales team
37:15
more focused on new revenue. And they only have
37:17
so many hours in a day. So if I ask them to be
37:19
my, now my collections agent, obviously it's
37:22
less revenue they're bringing in, right? But
37:25
there are times you need to figure out a way.
37:27
And we've been pretty successful here at GovExec
37:29
in figuring it out. But it's a balance with every
37:32
customer because a sales rep doesn't want to
37:34
be a collections agent. And they're not fully
37:36
incentivized to be a collections agent unless
37:38
you figure out a second incentive for them to
37:41
be a collections agent, in which case they're
37:42
happy to be a collections agent. So that balance
37:47
of how much time and investment do you put into
37:49
the reps and the delivery team helping you with
37:52
accomplishing those collections is really a key
37:54
part. And I don't know there is one answer. It's
37:57
just to keep taking a run at it until you think
38:00
you've got the right balance, where at some point
38:03
in the zero days past due to X days past due,
38:08
when this would no longer become the collection
38:10
team's primary responsibility to collect, and
38:13
now it's sales and delivery's primary responsibility
38:16
to continue the conversation and probe the customer
38:19
when they can and say, hey, what do you think
38:21
about? When can we get paid, right? Like you
38:23
guys are 90 days past due. What the heck, right?
38:26
Can you help us out here, right? Or what are
38:28
we missing? Maybe there's a piece of paperwork
38:30
missing or who knows what. That to me is essential
38:34
part of the business success is finding that
38:37
balance and then really run that playbook over
38:40
and over again to minimize the time to collect
38:43
and minimize the gap between revenue and cash.
38:47
Yes. And I love how you kept going over things
38:51
that we see on the back end in the financials,
38:53
right? But how are they impacted in the front
38:56
end? What's going on with the customer? So you
38:58
really have to have that broader view as a CFO,
39:02
not just looking at the numbers, but what affects
39:04
the numbers and how can you get your team to
39:07
think that way? Because sometimes we're all in
39:10
silos. We're just like closing the books. reconciling
39:13
the subledger, doing that forecast. How do you
39:16
get your team to start seeing the bigger picture?
39:19
It's challenging, right? So that's one of the
39:21
reasons why I do, at least I assume what people
39:24
do. And I've been in many of my career where
39:27
I have a weekly CFO directs team. So all the
39:31
directs are on the call or talking about what
39:33
they're working on. And so they kind of hear
39:34
about other business challenges and some of them
39:36
are interrelated, right? And so I'll say, okay,
39:39
the two of you go sort this one out, right? or
39:42
I'll ask one of them to help another one. It's
39:44
like, I know you can help here. So for example,
39:48
one of the challenges, I'll go back to order
39:50
to cash, the problem is the contracting is as
39:54
clear as it could be upfront, right? If the contract
39:57
isn't clear, then it makes collections more challenging
39:59
on the backend sometimes. Customers might say,
40:03
well, our default is to pay net 60, our terms
40:06
and our approval process clear that we actually
40:08
are signing for net 30. So there's often going
40:12
back up the chain and revisiting and doing better
40:15
for the future. This constant, okay, well, what
40:18
do we learn? How do we push it back? And so that's
40:20
a, having your whole team come together to understand
40:22
it. So if your functions team is suffering, it
40:25
might be your sales ops team that can help them
40:27
out, right? But at least in the long run, by
40:30
changing the contracts in a certain extent or
40:33
changing the expectations of the customer upfront.
40:35
But I think to your larger question on how you
40:37
get the team thinking the larger way. and thinking
40:40
about the overall challenges of business, the
40:43
thing that I do is it's not just my direct telling
40:47
me about what they're focused on, the problems
40:50
they're having, where they are in solving various
40:52
projects we've talked about. It's also what am
40:55
I seeing? What am I seeing from my seat that
40:58
they don't see? And where appropriate, bringing
41:01
it back to my team. And sometimes I will tell
41:04
them, this is only for you. You can't share these
41:07
down below for many reasons, right? But it can
41:11
be valuable by people that I have confidence
41:14
in, and I have confidence in this team, to say,
41:16
well, here are some things that I'm seeing that
41:19
I'd like you to be aware of, but I don't need
41:22
you to tell 20 more people, right? It will do
41:26
you a lot better if you have this information.
41:28
And you'll have a little more color as to why
41:30
we're doing the things that we're doing. It doesn't
41:32
affect you directly, it kind of affects... what
41:34
you're seeing in the business. And so having
41:36
that context, which I can bring, because I have
41:40
that seat that they don't have. And then I benefit
41:43
the same way from being in the CEO leadership
41:46
meetings, because I hear things there that I
41:48
didn't know. Bring those things down to my team
41:50
and say, yeah, we're going to have to work on
41:52
this, or we're going to have to make time for
41:54
this, or we're going to de -prioritize this thing
41:56
over here, because we got to focus on this new
41:58
thing. And so my last question is, Now that you
42:03
are in the seat of the CCFO and you're seeing,
42:06
okay, a lot of things are going on, what are
42:08
some of the blind spots you think that maybe
42:11
we're not thinking as CFOs enough? Maybe we should
42:14
be considering doing better in this area versus
42:18
another. What could be some of the blind spots
42:21
that we should be aware of? What should be in
42:23
the back of our minds? It's a great question.
42:25
You always think about what you don't know, what
42:27
you should know. I think for many CFOs, that,
42:32
you know, support private equity or any other
42:36
sort of shorter term hold investors, right? Whether,
42:40
you know, sooner it's not, you know, a private
42:42
company that is not founder run, the founder
42:45
is going to die there, right? I mean, there,
42:47
you know, so a lot of this work companies that
42:49
are going to get sold in the next one, two, three
42:52
years, four years, who knows that if you haven't
42:54
been through the sale process of a company, right?
42:57
Knowing for kind of how much time you have left.
43:00
and prioritizing the things that are going to
43:04
make you as successful as possible in that process
43:08
is essential. Again, if you have not been through
43:11
it, you wouldn't know. But one of the things
43:14
that piece of advice I got from some conference
43:18
I went to that I've yet to follow, but I promise
43:21
you I will at this company, is you should always
43:24
have a data room stood up. informations in a
43:28
place that's clean, it's organized because you
43:30
never know where you're going to need it. Every
43:32
quarter you should update it, right? Because
43:34
it's always a pain point, you know, finding and
43:37
cleaning the data. So for example, whether it's
43:39
this year or three years from now, I know I'm
43:41
going to need it and they're going to want to
43:42
look at multiple years backward, right? So it's
43:45
worth it to kind of stand one up, keep it clean,
43:49
keep it current and be ready. And that's something
43:52
that I would suggest is a blind spot. But the
43:54
other thing I'm going to say on the positive
43:57
side as a blind spot is that speed is relative.
44:01
So if you ask how I am doing, I am moving far
44:05
too slow. Things are not getting done at the
44:08
speed they need to be done because I can see
44:11
where we are. I can see where we should be and
44:14
we're not there yet. It sounds a little silly,
44:17
but like how happy we're all going to be once
44:19
all those projects are completed. I wish I was
44:23
that happy today. I look at these projects and
44:28
that's nothing about my team, nothing anybody
44:29
doing anything wrong. It's just, I want them
44:32
to be done faster. But if you ask my team or
44:36
you ask my directs, their feedback is it's the
44:40
energy and it's the direction, setting a clear
44:43
direction, which is what they value. And it didn't
44:47
say, boy, he's moving too slowly. They look at
44:51
it and say, he's set the energy that we're going
44:53
to fix these things and we're moving in the right
44:56
direction of why we're doing these things and
44:58
that is about that is value right and that is
45:01
something that they appreciate that I don't like
45:05
I'm looking at the end they're looking at the
45:07
journey right and so I'm like well that's good
45:10
so I'm glad I didn't know that I mean I didn't
45:13
really think about that until I was preparing
45:15
for this but that I have learned that that people
45:18
tell me, you know, you really appreciate everything
45:20
you brought. And it's like, all I brought is
45:22
a bunch of things in progress, like nothing's
45:25
done except the team realignment. But in terms
45:28
of my peers, that's only the foundation to build
45:31
a value. It doesn't actually deliver a tremendous
45:33
amount of value to them directly, but they will.
45:36
They're like, no, no, I really appreciate the
45:38
energy and the focus you brought. I'm like, oh,
45:41
okay, good. Glad to hear it. Yes. Yes. The journey.
45:47
Wow. I can see myself and see many. Yeah. Being
45:51
a bit impatient, right? Like this should be here.
45:53
We should get there by this day, but that's a
45:56
great perspective. Thank you so much for sharing.
45:59
You're welcome. And thank you for that. Wow.
46:02
Thank you so much, Matt, for being on the show.
46:05
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You shared such
46:08
great advice, such great tips that I think will
46:10
benefit our community. Thank you for tuning in.
46:14
I hope you enjoyed the episode as much as I did.
46:17
I will drop the link to Matt Ziegler's LinkedIn
46:21
profile in the show notes and also on my website
46:24
at wassi .common .com. You will also find them
46:27
in the edition of the Diary of a CFO newsletter
46:30
on LinkedIn. If there's any topics you'd like
46:33
me to cover in the future, don't forget to email
46:36
them at ask at thediaryofacfo .com. Again, the
46:41
email is ask at thediaryofthecfo .com. Thank
46:44
you so much. Don't forget to subscribe and leave
46:47
a review so that others can benefit from such
46:51
great insight in this episode. Thank you and
46:54
see you soon.