Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 292. Saving Retailers Money with Different CO2 High Ambient Strategies

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Episode 292. Saving Retailers Money with Different CO2 High Ambient Strategies · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: On this example we saved, same system, same location, same ambient. We saved and ran it at 292, 000 kilowatts. And then when we did ejectors here, with ejectors, same system, same location, ejectors was 245,000. And this is a commercial refrigeration application we were targeting. So that was like a 19% savings.
• 0:01
  Trevor: On this example we saved, same system, same location, same ambient. We saved and ran it at 292, 000 kilowatts. And then when we did ejectors here, with ejectors, same system, same location, ejectors was 245,000. And this is a commercial refrigeration application we were targeting. So that was like a 19% savings.
• 0:01
  Super excited that you're here. This is the third year or fourth year I'm talking about CO2 at the AHR Expo.
• 0:01
  We know this is a very heavy HVAC conference, but I try to bring as much refrigeration as possible because that's my passion. A little bit of About me if you guys don't know me my name is Trevor Matthews from a company called Refrigeration Mentor. We do technical training, we build customized training programs for contractors we do design courses, supermarket CO2 courses, and today we're going to be diving into CO2 high ambient strategy.
• 0:01
  This is something I've been talking about and learning about for probably seven or eight years now. I started learning CO2 back in 2015. training it all over North America over the last, yeah, since 2015, 2016. Train thousands of contractors and training more and more from around the world. And really like learning about it.
• 0:01
  That's. That's why we're here today. That's why you're here today is to learn a little bit. We're all about training, education, and mentorship at Refrigeration Mentor. And this is really what we're trying to do to uplift the refrigeration industry by sharing some knowledge. Because I, I think as we continue to evolve in refrigeration, we're going to see it continues to change. I'm not going to be diving in all the regulations because around the world, I work with people and there's different FGAS regulations, there's different, the AIMS Act here in Canada where our regulations haven't changed since 2016 or 2018, I can't remember.
• 0:02
  That's. That's why we're here today. That's why you're here today is to learn a little bit. We're all about training, education, and mentorship at Refrigeration Mentor. And this is really what we're trying to do to uplift the refrigeration industry by sharing some knowledge. Because I, I think as we continue to evolve in refrigeration, we're going to see it continues to change. I'm not going to be diving in all the regulations because around the world, I work with people and there's different FGAS regulations, there's different, the AIMS Act here in Canada where our regulations haven't changed since 2016 or 2018, I can't remember.
• 0:02
  So depending on where you're at, and I'm working with different countries on trying to, how, how to implement. CO2 and natural refrigerants into their country, training programs for the contractors. And it's a lot, it's a lot. And all we can do is really for us. And for me is to try to help the industry, help those technicians work out there safely and get the jobs done.
• 0:02
  On time and in a timely matter, but we're going to be talking about some high ambient strategy, but before we get in there, I want to talk about something that I just recently launched on a beta test. This is for the industry. So there's a QR code if you want to get on this beta test list. So we know AI is continuing to grow.
• 0:03
  On time and in a timely matter, but we're going to be talking about some high ambient strategy, but before we get in there, I want to talk about something that I just recently launched on a beta test. This is for the industry. So there's a QR code if you want to get on this beta test list. So we know AI is continuing to grow.
• 0:03
  This Support here. This is a training education and mentorship for technicians and refrigeration Professionals so this is a communication line where they can talk right into it And I was telling some of the technicians how I'm trying to I used to be a technician in the field and I struggled For five or six years seven years as a supermarket technician and like two o'clock in the morning had no one to call So this is kind of the refrigeration buddy.
• 0:03
  So they'll call and say hey Superheat's good, and then it'll ask you, well, what's the pressures or temperatures? That's what it'll ask you back, and then they'll be like, I didn't, I didn't take the temperature and pressure. Well, can you go to the, the evaporator and get the pressure and temperature and come back to me?
• 0:03
  And you can talk to it and talk it through like you're talking to a, a lead technician, or a lead support line from a manufacturer. So on the control side, on the compression side, on the CO2 side. And it's really here to help the industry out, to educate them and train them. So I'm super excited that, that everybody get a chance to take a, to scan that.
• 0:04
  And you can talk to it and talk it through like you're talking to a, a lead technician, or a lead support line from a manufacturer. So on the control side, on the compression side, on the CO2 side. And it's really here to help the industry out, to educate them and train them. So I'm super excited that, that everybody get a chance to take a, to scan that.
• 0:04
  Okay, fantastic. So the first step here, and I do this all the time. I do, like I said, I do intro to CO2 programs, service and maintenance, design CO2 programs for people all around the world. And even in my advanced CO2 programs, this is what I start with. Okay. Do we all, do you all know what type of diagram this is?
• 0:04
  What else is it called? Pressure Enthalpy, Log Diagram, Mole Air Diagram. There's lots of different terms for it. And what we need to understand in the fundamentals of CO2 and fundamentals of refrigeration is there's a lot of key terms. It took me many years to really understand all this, and I mean I'm talking with experts all over the world to figure out what the actual term's on.
• 0:04
  And I want to make it easier for technicians, because that's, that's my goal, is to help technicians and people coming into the refrigeration industry. So the first line here is the saturated liquid bubble point line. So anything to the If we're, you're looking at to your left side of it, that's gonna be liquid.
• 0:05
  And I want to make it easier for technicians, because that's, that's my goal, is to help technicians and people coming into the refrigeration industry. So the first line here is the saturated liquid bubble point line. So anything to the If we're, you're looking at to your left side of it, that's gonna be liquid.
• 0:05
  Okay? Subcool liquid, if you're below the critical pressure line, and we'll show you that in a minute. On this side is your saturated vapor dew point. I know all of you know this, but I want to go through it and so anything to the, to your right side of it's gonna be all gas or vapor in the minute. Middle is gonna be your two phase mixture, so this is where you got a percentage of liquid and a percentage of vapor inside this.
• 0:05
  Saturated condition, okay? Because this is going to be very important when we dive into high ambient strategies. Here this is a sub cooled liquid. Anything below the critical pressure. On this side is the gas and vapor we talked about. And this is flash gas. I just kind of mentioned that a little bit.
• 0:05
  You have a percentage of flash gas, a percentage of liquid inside this two-phase mixture. On this one, it's really hard to see, but it says 0.4 0.40. So that really means that in, if it was at that point or on that line, that means there's 40% flash gas or or gas or vape or whatever you want to want to call that.
• 0:06
  You have a percentage of flash gas, a percentage of liquid inside this two-phase mixture. On this one, it's really hard to see, but it says 0.4 0.40. So that really means that in, if it was at that point or on that line, that means there's 40% flash gas or or gas or vape or whatever you want to want to call that.
• 0:06
  'cause this is really important to understand with CO2, because even in. HFC system, the refrigeration system, we never ever liked flash gas where? Where did we want flash gas to happen? In the liquid line, right? That's what we don't want. But this is what CO2 systems generate a lot of, so we'll talk about that.
• 0:06
  Here's the critical point, so any time we're above the critical pressure or critical temperature of any refrigerant We're going to be at a supercritical fluid, but we'll talk about that in a second. So, critical pressure, 1055 PSI or 72. 8 bar. I try to make the units universal because a lot of people that I work with use bar and Celsius.
• 0:06
  And so the critical temperature is 87. 8 or 31. 1 degrees Celsius. So when we're above that, we're at a supercritical fluid. Okay, and what does that mean? It's an undefined fluid. So it's a, there's a percentage of gas and a percentage of liquid in there, but it's undefined. You can't just go to a pressure temperature chart and be like, okay, at this pressure, it's this temperature.
• 0:07
  And so the critical temperature is 87. 8 or 31. 1 degrees Celsius. So when we're above that, we're at a supercritical fluid. Okay, and what does that mean? It's an undefined fluid. So it's a, there's a percentage of gas and a percentage of liquid in there, but it's undefined. You can't just go to a pressure temperature chart and be like, okay, at this pressure, it's this temperature.
• 0:07
  Okay, on this side, so if I'm above the critical pressure, but below the critical temperature, This is compressed liquid now. See, I didn't know that until I started working with people in the CO2 extraction area. Because I just always thought when you're above the critical pressure, it's super critical fluid.
• 0:07
  It's not. It's actually a liquid. Because you can move CO2 liquid at 4, 000 psi or 2, 000 psi. So this is a compressed liquid. But when you go below the critical pressure, then that's sub cooled liquid. And does this matter? Maybe it does, or maybe it doesn't. And anything below that 61 61 PSI, I think it's 4.
• 0:07
  2 bar, then you, that liquid CO2 could turn to dry ice. And these are a few things that I hear all the time. I just did a talk a few days ago at another event called the HVAC Symposium. And I did taking the fear of the CO2 and flammable refrigerants. That's one of the things that people worry about is getting dry ice.
• 0:07
  in the system. In the system, if you get dry ice, it's not very difficult to turn it back into a liquid or a vapor. But if you, where I talk about the safety of it, is if you get it in your hoses while you're charging or something. So that's where the safety, the thing comes involved. And definitely, we talk about that heavily in our intro to CO2 programs.
• 0:08
  in the system. In the system, if you get dry ice, it's not very difficult to turn it back into a liquid or a vapor. But if you, where I talk about the safety of it, is if you get it in your hoses while you're charging or something. So that's where the safety, the thing comes involved. And definitely, we talk about that heavily in our intro to CO2 programs.
• 0:08
  But here's the system. Now we're going to talk about a flash gas system. This is a basic booster system. And really, does anybody know when I say a basic booster system, what that means? Now what, what does that mean, Abraham? Did you
• 0:08
  Speaker 5: take the lower, the short power from the low side and at low temperature side and you boost it to the medium suction
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  Speaker 4: so you can take down to a higher,
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  Trevor: Yeah.
• 0:08
  Yeah, exactly. It's like two stage compression. As Abraham, is that correct? Yeah. Abraham says you're taking this low temp, these are the low temp compressors, and it doesn't matter manufacturer, and you're taking that discharge, and you're discharging it right into the A medium temp compressor, and so this is your booster compressor, right here.
• 0:08
  Took me a long time to figure that out, people were talking about, Ah, this is a booster system, I didn't really understand until, I, I spent years, and then I figured it out, oh, the low temp is that booster system, okay? And so what happens is a two stage system, because this compressor here, cannot do that massive compression ratio, so if we went from here, All the way up to by that condenser, it's too much for those compressors, it's outside the envelope.
• 0:09
  Took me a long time to figure that out, people were talking about, Ah, this is a booster system, I didn't really understand until, I, I spent years, and then I figured it out, oh, the low temp is that booster system, okay? And so what happens is a two stage system, because this compressor here, cannot do that massive compression ratio, so if we went from here, All the way up to by that condenser, it's too much for those compressors, it's outside the envelope.
• 0:09
  And so they, they would, that would lead to a failure, okay? So what they do, they will put it into the suction immediately. Is this new to the refrigeration industry? No, no, no, this is this I haven't seen this on HFC systems. This has been around for decades Okay, so this is not new. Maybe it's new to some of you, but it's not new And when I start learning about it and seeing it, I'm just like, okay How does this make sense to me in the refrigeration industry?
• 0:09
  And so really what happens in a flash gas system or a basic booster system You have your suction going through your medium temp. Let me see if this works here. Oh, yeah. So here's my medium temp So we have our suction going through a medium temp, through our gas condenser or gas cooler, through something we call a high pressure valve, down into our flash tank, receiver, or vessel, a lot of people call it different terms, so depending on who you're chatting with, through a flash gas bypass valve or a bypass valve, and then back around.
• 0:10
  And so really what happens in a flash gas system or a basic booster system You have your suction going through your medium temp. Let me see if this works here. Oh, yeah. So here's my medium temp So we have our suction going through a medium temp, through our gas condenser or gas cooler, through something we call a high pressure valve, down into our flash tank, receiver, or vessel, a lot of people call it different terms, so depending on who you're chatting with, through a flash gas bypass valve or a bypass valve, and then back around.
• 0:10
  So this is like a gas loop. Is there really any work being done there? What, what do we need to have work being done in your system?
• 0:10
  Heat transfer, right? We don't have an evaporator in there. So right now, we're just bypassing this gas back into the medium temp suction. So what happens when we're in the middle of the summertime? It's really hot out. Where would we be on the chart? If we're, where we say 87. 8 degrees Fahrenheit? How often does that get in most places around the world?
• 0:10
  At least a few hours a year. And the more south you go from Canada, it gets more and more. Okay, so that will mean the percentage, let me just go back one slide, the percentage of fat, flash gas you would see there will move across. Okay, so this will mean, As the summer hits and the warmer weather hits, or it doesn't matter if it's summer or not, anytime that temperature starts to rise, the ambient rise, we're going to create more flash gas inside this vessel.
• 0:11
  At least a few hours a year. And the more south you go from Canada, it gets more and more. Okay, so that will mean the percentage, let me just go back one slide, the percentage of fat, flash gas you would see there will move across. Okay, so this will mean, As the summer hits and the warmer weather hits, or it doesn't matter if it's summer or not, anytime that temperature starts to rise, the ambient rise, we're going to create more flash gas inside this vessel.
• 0:11
  And this is a penalty, okay? And this is one, one of my good friends, Andre Patino, one of my first mentors for CO2, he was like, Trevor, think about it like this. I'll never forget, think about in the middle of the summer time, you need ten medium temp compressors to run, okay? And so that's to take all that load, all the flash gas load, all the medium temp load, all the low temp load, back into those medium temp compressors.
• 0:11
  I'm like, yeah, okay, that makes sense, because you've got to design for a, for like the worst case of the year. Makes sense? Does that make sense? Okay, but he said, like, Trevor, think about in the middle of the wintertime, when it's not really hot out, you're, you don't need as much capacity. You may only need 4 or 5 of those compressors, or 6 maybe.
• 0:12
  I'm like, yeah, okay, that makes sense, because you've got to design for a, for like the worst case of the year. Makes sense? Does that make sense? Okay, but he said, like, Trevor, think about in the middle of the wintertime, when it's not really hot out, you're, you don't need as much capacity. You may only need 4 or 5 of those compressors, or 6 maybe.
• 0:12
  So 40%, 30%, 40%, or 50%, all depends on the design on the compressor, will be going through that, just gas looping around, and that's an energy penalty. So that's why, like, people are like, well, CO2 is not efficient, you know, it doesn't work in these climates. It's not true. You can take these and work these in any, really, any climate.
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  But it's a lot of energy that's going to be used because you're not doing any work. Make sense so far? Okay, great. Okay. So that's, that's one thing I learned. And so, so how do we mitigate that? How do we change that? We're going to talk about three different potential strategies. And I'm going to explain to you right now what I've learned.
• 0:12
  And I'm going to talk about my experience with working people in, in over 20 or 30 countries that are doing CO2. What I see is it's not a one size fits all, telling you right now. There's not, you just can't take a unit and place it in Toronto, place it in Vegas, places in Miami, play, different parts of here, you know, here in Florida.
• 0:13
  And I'm going to talk about my experience with working people in, in over 20 or 30 countries that are doing CO2. What I see is it's not a one size fits all, telling you right now. There's not, you just can't take a unit and place it in Toronto, place it in Vegas, places in Miami, play, different parts of here, you know, here in Florida.
• 0:13
  It's not gonna, you just can just take that system and put it in all these different places. That's just what I learned. You can't just take it and put it in Denmark and then put it in Australia. Will they work? For sure. But there's different strategies that you need to think about and this is what I talk about when I'm coaching some people and clients about, okay, what strategy should I bring to my retailer, to my customer?
• 0:13
  It depends. And here are three solutions that we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about parallel compression, we're going to talk about adiabatic, and we're going to talk about ejectors. Okay, they have a place in CO2 systems, but not every system you're going to want to have ejectors, not every system you're going to want to have adiabatic, and not every system you're going to need parallel compression.
• 0:13
  Because I used to think, and the way I was I was taught, is like, oh well these are all cool advancements and the high ambient strategies, but what do each one of these add from this? What does it add to that system? It has efficiency, but what else? To get that efficiency, what does it add? Cost. Sometimes complexity.
• 0:14
  Because I used to think, and the way I was I was taught, is like, oh well these are all cool advancements and the high ambient strategies, but what do each one of these add from this? What does it add to that system? It has efficiency, but what else? To get that efficiency, what does it add? Cost. Sometimes complexity.
• 0:14
  Okay, and this is some of the things you need to think about depending on where you're placing. I'm working with some people in South America to install some of these. Okay, some transcritical booster systems. But the level of service in certain parts of South America is not the same as in Germany. Not the same as in Canada, not the same as in the U.
• 0:14
  S. And there's different things that they have to learn because even in Canada we have a great apprenticeship program. I went through it. I got my red seal, but I was not good, really good at drives when I started out. Like, how do I set up a drive? How do I put it on a compressor? How do I work on it? I struggle, and so a lot of technicians do, even though you have four or five years of school behind you, because if you don't see it every day and you're not working on it, you're not trained by a mentor or a coach, it's really tough.
• 0:14
  And so these technologies may fit or may not fit depending on a lot of factors. Okay, so parallel compression. Really, what, what's, what is parallel compression? What are we doing? Does anybody know? What are we doing? Anybody work on parallel compressions yet? Let's show of hands. No one? Okay. Okay, so what we talked about earlier, we have our discharge, our medium temp compressors.
• 0:15
  And so these technologies may fit or may not fit depending on a lot of factors. Okay, so parallel compression. Really, what, what's, what is parallel compression? What are we doing? Does anybody know? What are we doing? Anybody work on parallel compressions yet? Let's show of hands. No one? Okay. Okay, so what we talked about earlier, we have our discharge, our medium temp compressors.
• 0:15
  We have our discharge that goes out into the gas cooler through our high pressure valve down to our receiver, our flash tank, or our vessel. Okay, we would leave our vessel and go through our flash tank, but back into our medium temp suction. Does anybody know what an average medium temp suction temperature or SST would be running at?
• 0:15
  Or pressure? It doesn't matter? 400, 425. Okay, say, say plus 20 Fahrenheit minus 6 Celsius. Okay, we'll say, we'll say we're running at that right there. And then, so that, that means if we're running that, that flash tank at, say, that temperature or that pressure, there's a compression ratio. Okay, from my medium temp suction to my discharge.
• 0:16
  Or pressure? It doesn't matter? 400, 425. Okay, say, say plus 20 Fahrenheit minus 6 Celsius. Okay, we'll say, we'll say we're running at that right there. And then, so that, that means if we're running that, that flash tank at, say, that temperature or that pressure, there's a compression ratio. Okay, from my medium temp suction to my discharge.
• 0:16
  That compression ratio is the penalty. So that's how much energy it's going to take to work. So if you go into the compressor manufacturer operation envelope, it's going to say it takes this much energy for these design conditions. The bigger that compression ratio gets, the more energy it's going to take.
• 0:16
  The less capacity you're going to have. The shorter it gets, that compression ratio, the less work it's going to do, but the more capacity you're going to get out of the compressor. So instead of sending that 45, so, the 45 percent into the medium time suction, what parallel compression will do, will take, instead of going through the flash gas bypass valve, it will go around into a separate Suction into a compressor.
• 0:16
  Now, this compressor is going to run at a higher temperature. So now, instead of running, if my receiver, what, what a flash tank running at? What do you guys, what do you run your flash tanks at? Just say 536, you know, around 35 bar or something like that. So, 536. So now I can actually, instead of running, This, all that flash gas, through these medium temp compressors, at 4, 425 you said, 407, 425, or plus 20, I can start running it at, at 32, 34 degree Fahrenheit, or 1, 2, or 3 degrees Celsius.
• 0:17
  Now, this compressor is going to run at a higher temperature. So now, instead of running, if my receiver, what, what a flash tank running at? What do you guys, what do you run your flash tanks at? Just say 536, you know, around 35 bar or something like that. So, 536. So now I can actually, instead of running, This, all that flash gas, through these medium temp compressors, at 4, 425 you said, 407, 425, or plus 20, I can start running it at, at 32, 34 degree Fahrenheit, or 1, 2, or 3 degrees Celsius.
• 0:17
  So now what happens to that compression ratio? It gets, it gets smaller. But not only that, not only that it gets smaller, is that these compressors don't have to be as large. Is that an advantage? What does that mean if I don't need as big a compressor in the system to get the capacity I need? Lower prices, lower energy, but there's always a cost, right?
• 0:17
  If you design it and you design these too, too small for an example and make it too tight and one of these fail or you have an issue, you may not meet that capacity in the summer. So this is why design is so important. And when I'm in my design course and I'm still learning, honestly, I'm still learning, technician background, but I, I can design systems now.
• 0:18
  If you design it and you design these too, too small for an example and make it too tight and one of these fail or you have an issue, you may not meet that capacity in the summer. So this is why design is so important. And when I'm in my design course and I'm still learning, honestly, I'm still learning, technician background, but I, I can design systems now.
• 0:18
  It's going in through the fine details. What is the capacity during the day? What is the capacity during the night? Do they have curtains on, on that store? There's a lot of factors that you have to take. What size of fans do you have on there? There are so many factors. But this is the basic principle of parallel compression.
• 0:18
  Any questions on this?
• 0:18
  Speaker 6: Just, are they currently designing them like that, and if they are, are they giving the medium tap compressors enough
• 0:18
  Speaker 7: capacity to still run the rack if that won't
• 0:18
  Trevor: Great question. That is a great question. Depends on the design. Hopefully they do. Because if you lose that parallel compression, now you have all that flash gas going into smaller compressors that can't handle potentially that load, and then you may run into issues in that one or two times a year.
• 0:18
  So that's a, that's a great question. That's why design is so important. Thank you for that question, Tom. And so this is what I kind of talked about earlier. I didn't jump to this slide. Instead of the compression ratio from here to here with all that flash gas, we are going to go and step it, step it up, the pressure up.
• 0:19
  So that's a, that's a great question. That's why design is so important. Thank you for that question, Tom. And so this is what I kind of talked about earlier. I didn't jump to this slide. Instead of the compression ratio from here to here with all that flash gas, we are going to go and step it, step it up, the pressure up.
• 0:19
  So we're really just reducing that compression ratio. So we're not putting so much work on those medium temp compressor. Some people call it interstage. Compressor, IT Compressor, PC Compressor, depending on what parts of the world you're from. And here's a, a little study here. This is from my good friends, Omega Solutions.
• 0:19
  That's who I partner with on my design courses. For our CO2 design course, we got six six week courses, 12 week courses, but they did a comparison. And this is, this is data that was, I believe this data was from Purdue University. I don't know if any anyone here know who Purdue and their eub applications are.
• 0:19
  They do a lot of case studies for refrigeration. Lydia does. Great to see you Lydia. Yeah. Okay. I go and do lots of research. There's a lot of way smarter people out there in the world. And I go in and I try to do as much research as possible. But this is kind of one example. We always use Or I always use the basic booster system as the baseline in that specific city that specific province state or country Okay, so this is kind of the baseline and we got strat, stratasburg helsinki and athens in this one We also have a case study if you wait till the end you can take a screenshot I'll give you a case study for toronto las vegas and miami that me and omega solution has has done for for places here so What, what we're seeing in in the first one, there's about a 4 percent efficiency.
• 0:20
  They do a lot of case studies for refrigeration. Lydia does. Great to see you Lydia. Yeah. Okay. I go and do lots of research. There's a lot of way smarter people out there in the world. And I go in and I try to do as much research as possible. But this is kind of one example. We always use Or I always use the basic booster system as the baseline in that specific city that specific province state or country Okay, so this is kind of the baseline and we got strat, stratasburg helsinki and athens in this one We also have a case study if you wait till the end you can take a screenshot I'll give you a case study for toronto las vegas and miami that me and omega solution has has done for for places here so What, what we're seeing in in the first one, there's about a 4 percent efficiency.
• 0:20
  Helsinki is about a 2. And then Athens, we get about a 6 percent efficiency gain with the parallel compression, but once again, there's a couple of notes, higher upfront costs, lower operational costs. So this is a big deal. This is a big deal that I see in the industry. I never got it, I never got it at first.
• 0:20
  When I started working with retailers, and big corporations there's different budgets. There's different agendas, honestly. And they're trying, okay, well we're, we got a capex cost, we don't Don't worry about what's going on in the operation cost, that's your problem, that's not our problem. And this is what manufacturers I talk with deal with all the time.
• 0:21
  When I started working with retailers, and big corporations there's different budgets. There's different agendas, honestly. And they're trying, okay, well we're, we got a capex cost, we don't Don't worry about what's going on in the operation cost, that's your problem, that's not our problem. And this is what manufacturers I talk with deal with all the time.
• 0:21
  If they ever just came, came together, it's probably going to save them a lot of time and money and headache, honestly. But you got to understand that it might be a higher upfront cost, but over a 20 or 30 year period, it may be a way lower operating cost. Okay. And I know a lot of retailers, a lot of manufacturers are trying to make this one size fits all, but it's just not there.
• 0:21
  It's just not there, especially for CO2, because there's a lot of conditions, because we, in Canada, we've been doing, in North America since the 90s, mid 90s, we've been doing CO2 in Canada, and we have hundreds of systems, and none of them have parallel compression that I know, and I've been to a lot of sites.
• 0:21
  Why do you think is that? What's that? Ambient temperature! Why do I need to add that when I have a, just a small portion of the year with flash gas? Okay, and so could it, could it be valuable? Well, yeah, it could be something that you may may take when you're, when you talk about ejectors, and I'll talk about ejectors in a few minutes.
• 0:22
  Why do you think is that? What's that? Ambient temperature! Why do I need to add that when I have a, just a small portion of the year with flash gas? Okay, and so could it, could it be valuable? Well, yeah, it could be something that you may may take when you're, when you talk about ejectors, and I'll talk about ejectors in a few minutes.
• 0:22
  Maybe you gotta have a parallel compression. But at this point, you'll see in these, all these Nordic countries and Canada and some of them are really cool. There's not much flash gas throughout the year. There is a percentage, and you do have to break down to, R O I. This is why when you're going to a retailer or a customer, you got to give them two or three options.
• 0:22
  And here's the numbers and this is how you break it down. I'm going to show you a few slides in a few minutes on how how to to look at that, but you have to be very detailed. Because there's, I've seen manufacturers and engineers and retailers arguing about the same thing. This is better than this. This is better than that.
• 0:22
  And then when all of them sat down together and they worked out the numbers, they're like, oh. Okay. We're all partially right. Okay. And just it's, it's the way it is. Questions on parallel compression before we move on.
• 0:22
  Yeah, go Speaker 8: ahead. Not a question. There's only a, another benefit to use power compressors. We depending on the algorithm that configures the views, the saving is included. When the flash time operation increase a pressure to health, the power compression reduce consumption. Performance. Yeah, there's another different controller depends on CPC.
• 0:23
  Speaker 8: ahead. Not a question. There's only a, another benefit to use power compressors. We depending on the algorithm that configures the views, the saving is included. When the flash time operation increase a pressure to health, the power compression reduce consumption. Performance. Yeah, there's another different controller depends on CPC.
• 0:23
  Trevor: Yeah. Yeah, although brings up a good point because now with parallel compression you can potentially Increase your flash tank your receiver your vessel pressure and as you do that that reduces the energy consumption on your on your system Great point. Thank you for bringing that up. Any other questions?
• 0:23
  Okay Adiabatic gas coolers. Okay gas cooler. What is a gas cooler? What is it? It's a condenser. It cools the gas, but it's a condenser, right? Let's not make it difficult when I'm in my train. It's just a condenser. Why do we call it a gas cooler? Because it's cooling gas. Yeah, yeah. So Nick's saying here at certain times of the year that, that it doesn't condense.
• 0:23
  It, it just cools in the gas. So that inlet that's coming into your condenser, an outlet of the condenser, you're not changing any phase. So you're just taking a temperature, say, say it's two hundred and twenty it's two hundred and fifty degrees Fahrenheit going in. Coming out is ninety five Fahrenheit.
• 0:24
  It, it just cools in the gas. So that inlet that's coming into your condenser, an outlet of the condenser, you're not changing any phase. So you're just taking a temperature, say, say it's two hundred and twenty it's two hundred and fifty degrees Fahrenheit going in. Coming out is ninety five Fahrenheit. That's important to understand. Because then we're not changing, we don't have any sub cooled liquid. This is where adiabatic can come in. And so what is, when I say adiabatic cooling, what does that really mean? Because there's a lot of smart people in this room. What are we really doing? We're adding humidity.
• 0:24
  How are we doing that? Water. Basically sweating.
• 0:24
  Taking the latent heat. So you got pads. This example, because it's not only pads, but we got pads. This is my good friends from Guttner, my good friends from BAC. So they have different style pads. Is this new to the industry? No. Man, this is decades and decades. But now we're using it in the refrigeration applications.
• 0:24
  Okay, and chiller applications. So, as we go through, we have, you see this little, there's a line there. So we have water, and the water drops down here. And then as the air goes through, we got fans going through there. And our coil's right in here. So we're taking that latent effect. So we keep it below what?
• 0:24
  What are we trying to do? Or, Damon, perfect. Keep it below that critical point. The longer we keep it below the critical point, we can keep sub cooled liquid going into that flash tank, we do not go into transcritical, we have less what? Flash gas, okay? So we got less flash gas. This is great! Less flash gas, less work on those medium temp transcritical compressors, now we got more efficient.
• 0:25
  What are we trying to do? Or, Damon, perfect. Keep it below that critical point. The longer we keep it below the critical point, we can keep sub cooled liquid going into that flash tank, we do not go into transcritical, we have less what? Flash gas, okay? So we got less flash gas. This is great! Less flash gas, less work on those medium temp transcritical compressors, now we got more efficient.
• 0:25
  But what's the problem? What are some of the problems that could, could entail with having adiabatic? Location, that's perfect. Location dependent. If I have a place that's 100 percent humidity, 100 percent of the time, and we know that's not the case, but can we get any latent effect from that? No. So this is where you've got to really crunch the numbers.
• 0:25
  Maybe, if you crunch the numbers, you might get a 1 or 2 or 3 percent ROI, and maybe the customer's like okay, I'm willing to take that cost on To do this, but what you really need to do and what we do in our design programs, we break down the numbers. Like, how much is this actually going to cost your retailer when you design this?
• 0:25
  What's the exact numbers of the oil, the refrigerant, and these gas coolers? Because this is another penalty on a CO2 system because they're expensive. Okay, what other things that, so if we're in a location that's really humid all the time, they might not be as effective. Not saying they won't be!
• 0:26
  What's the exact numbers of the oil, the refrigerant, and these gas coolers? Because this is another penalty on a CO2 system because they're expensive. Okay, what other things that, so if we're in a location that's really humid all the time, they might not be as effective. Not saying they won't be!
• 0:26
  Because if you do the numbers, there, there's, there's times a year when it gets drier and could be at middle of the night. It, it just, it just depends. What else could be a a potential challenge, I should say. Not an issue, a challenge. Water consumption, water quality. Big things to think about. Because I can have the best design system, but if it's not fine tuned properly and working right, that's going to cost your customer so much money.
• 0:26
  And I've seen this time and time again. I've seen, I've seen a retailer have this great system, it should be working perfectly, should be hitting about a 15 percent efficiency versus a flash tank, and they're getting 1%. It leads back to fine tuning and it leads back to different types of things. If, 'cause if these pads, just like any condenser, what happens if I, I go and I plug a whole condenser with boxes, what's gonna happen?
• 0:26
  High head, you're gonna trip off and they go, the compressor unit's gonna shut down and then you're gonna lose product. Okay? No different than these pads getting plugged up again, dirt and dust inside them, but one advantage is that you can see that we, we broke down here is potential savings. And this really looks good, right?
• 0:27
  High head, you're gonna trip off and they go, the compressor unit's gonna shut down and then you're gonna lose product. Okay? No different than these pads getting plugged up again, dirt and dust inside them, but one advantage is that you can see that we, we broke down here is potential savings. And this really looks good, right?
• 0:27
  So in Toronto, on our examples, we're using a 70 kilowatt which is approximately 20, 229 or 39, 000 BTUs at approximately 21 degrees Fahrenheit minus 6 Celsius. For the medium temp and then the low temp is 20 or 47, 000 BTUs, 14 kilowatts at about minus 20 F SST. You'll see as we broke down the numbers, you get an okay savings 5.
• 0:27
  2. In Toronto, 5. 2 percent savings. But what you have to do with your customers, you've got to break down these numbers. How much is the gas cooler cost? How much does the pads cost? How much is that total life cycle of that cost? Is it, are they willing to, and when you break down the numbers with them is 5 percent enough savings because look down here in, in Las Vegas, look at this number.
• 0:28
  2. In Toronto, 5. 2 percent savings. But what you have to do with your customers, you've got to break down these numbers. How much is the gas cooler cost? How much does the pads cost? How much is that total life cycle of that cost? Is it, are they willing to, and when you break down the numbers with them is 5 percent enough savings because look down here in, in Las Vegas, look at this number.
• 0:28
  Man, every customer likes seeing that number. Tw Almost 29%. I I like seeing that number. I've seen design design people go and and here's the numbers, manufacturers, here's the numbers. This is the savings that you're gonna get. How much does water cost in Las Vegas?
• 0:28
  Does anybody think of that? Like in Canada, it's free, it just shoots out everywhere. So, you know, water's not an issue. But when you go to places like Vegas or somewheres where there's droughts all the time, that water costs a penalty. So these are the things that you need to think of as a contractor, a technician, a designer, a retailer.
• 0:28
  It's something that you really need to think about. Because I love the look of the savings, but, as Jeremy pointed other things can take this savings and go, and it could be minus 28%. We got water treatment, we got pads that need to be replaced, lots of things, and these are just a couple of designs, see there's lots of different ones out there, I was just at a transcritical site, not far from my house in Canada They're called Dot Foods.
• 0:29
  It's something that you really need to think about. Because I love the look of the savings, but, as Jeremy pointed other things can take this savings and go, and it could be minus 28%. We got water treatment, we got pads that need to be replaced, lots of things, and these are just a couple of designs, see there's lots of different ones out there, I was just at a transcritical site, not far from my house in Canada They're called Dot Foods.
• 0:29
  They're a big distribution warehouse. They have a massive what was it again? M& M Carnot rack, I think. And they heat all the floors with it, all the glycol. Super cool system. And they have and that's actually the system right up there. But once again, they get the, they, they did the whole design.
• 0:29
  I talked to my good friend Jason Hill, who installed it. But they didn't have a water treatment in, in the project. He was like, we need to get this in the project. Did anybody test the water? So they did add one to it, but once again, you, as a designer or as a contractor, you've got to think about all these different things.
• 0:29
  Any questions on adiabatic solutions? Because I know quite a few of you worked on adiabatic solutions.
• 0:29
  Speaker 5: Would you be able to offset those costs, those operating costs, versus the Ah,
• 0:29
  Trevor: so that's a great question. Could you do a bigger condenser? What do you guys all think?
• 0:29
  What's that?
• 0:29
  Speaker 5: Maybe depends, maybe depends.
• 0:29
  Should be location dependent because of the ambience. Be realistic in terms of how hot it gets during the year. In most places, I don't, I haven't seen a reason why, why not to use
• 0:30
  Should be location dependent because of the ambience. Be realistic in terms of how hot it gets during the year. In most places, I don't, I haven't seen a reason why, why not to use
• 0:30
  Speaker 7: oversize. The
• 0:30
  Trevor: thing about it, just say I do get a bigger condenser, how do I drop the temperature when it's 110 Fahrenheit?
• 0:30
  That's the question. You know what I mean? So we need that latent effect, right? So you can get a bigger condenser. Man, there's challenges with that, but in Canada, you get split condensers now or anywhere. And most manufacturers make split condenser, but you need that latent effect to drop it below the critical point
• 0:30
  force and assist of transcritical transcritical to like e recovery or something like that.
• 0:30
  And you're in a. High ambient, you know, Southern California type flotation, you got to have the adiabatic to get that leading air temperature, get the boil low enough.
• 0:30
  So and it all depends. There's no, there's no right or wrong answer here. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer. That is what you, you do the numbers. Cause I'm working with some people in Australia and they've been doing CO2 for a long time. And they're like, Trevor, you know, all these studies that I see that, you know, 404 and these other refrigerants are way more expensive, they're more complex than the 404s and he's like theoretically, all these numbers that, you know, was put on paper that said all these numbers of these efficiency losses for CO2 versus synthetic refrigerants, we got the data now showing that those systems that on paper said that is going to cost as much is a lot lower.
• 0:31
  So and it all depends. There's no, there's no right or wrong answer here. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer. That is what you, you do the numbers. Cause I'm working with some people in Australia and they've been doing CO2 for a long time. And they're like, Trevor, you know, all these studies that I see that, you know, 404 and these other refrigerants are way more expensive, they're more complex than the 404s and he's like theoretically, all these numbers that, you know, was put on paper that said all these numbers of these efficiency losses for CO2 versus synthetic refrigerants, we got the data now showing that those systems that on paper said that is going to cost as much is a lot lower.
• 0:31
  So it's not it's not costing CO2 as much as people thought, and as I am seeing the evolution of CO2 with more efficient controls, more efficient components, we're seeing more efficient CO2 system, and this is no different back then in the 1990s or 80s when people HFC came out. I remember I was talking to the gurus of, of Copeland and they were like, yeah, Trevor, when 4 0 4 came out, we had a flinger feed, K body style, you know, it was working great with the 5 0 2 and, and R 12 and, and then all of a sudden 4 0 4 comes out and now we need to add a pump.
• 0:31
  Well, does that adding a pump cost money to a, a new system? It does. And then no different than four 10. Oh, we've been using R 22 for this long as a low pressure refrigerant. Now we gotta make compressors for four 10. Did that add a cost? To new design systems, thicker shells, this is the same thing. We've got to add the cost now, but over time as more manufacturers come in, the prices are going to be more competitive and we're going to see better technologies coming out over the years that's not going to cost so much.
• 0:32
  Well, does that adding a pump cost money to a, a new system? It does. And then no different than four 10. Oh, we've been using R 22 for this long as a low pressure refrigerant. Now we gotta make compressors for four 10. Did that add a cost? To new design systems, thicker shells, this is the same thing. We've got to add the cost now, but over time as more manufacturers come in, the prices are going to be more competitive and we're going to see better technologies coming out over the years that's not going to cost so much.
• 0:32
  Now we'll get into the ejectors. Okay, how many people have heard, at least heard of ejectors before? Show of hands. Okay, so does anybody want to explain how an ejector works?
• 0:32
  Venturi effect. Is a venturi effect new to the world? Okay, thank you, thank you. So what, what's it doing? Does anybody know? Want to take a stab at it?
• 0:32
  Speaker 5: Using your higher pressure from the, from the discharge line and then using that with the nozzle with the venturi effect is all that gas that is making mass flow so it's a bit compressive.
• 0:32
  It's a, I know it's very Compared to the pyrolysis ratio, which is usually mechanical. Okay,
• 0:33
  It's a, I know it's very Compared to the pyrolysis ratio, which is usually mechanical. Okay,
• 0:33
  Trevor: mechanical. Anybody else want to add to that?
• 0:33
  No? Okay. And that's right. So we're taking, and some people call it suction lift but we're actually taking that medium temp suction gas that's supposed to go into the medium temp compressors, and we're saying, hey, we don't want you to go in there because there's an energy penalty. We don't want that compression ratio so high.
• 0:33
  Right, because that makes more work. I talked about it earlier, that compression ratio. And then we take high pressure gas, and then we mix it. And it goes back into the flashing. So this is kind of what it looks for. So, you got there's, Dan Foss has ejectors. Corel and Carrier have ejectors, Mueller has ejectors, there's a lot of different Bitzer has ejectors out there, there's a lot of different manufacturers that make ejectors.
• 0:33
  But really, what's it doing? Okay, so here, 65 percent of the mass flow goes through the gas cooler. Mass flow splits between the liquid receiver, 45 flash gas, 55 percent to the fixtures. So all that liquid is going down, and now we have 45 going back. And the suction gas splits 20 percent mass to the medium temp compressor, 35 percent back to the ejector.
• 0:34
  But really, what's it doing? Okay, so here, 65 percent of the mass flow goes through the gas cooler. Mass flow splits between the liquid receiver, 45 flash gas, 55 percent to the fixtures. So all that liquid is going down, and now we have 45 going back. And the suction gas splits 20 percent mass to the medium temp compressor, 35 percent back to the ejector.
• 0:34
  So now we're taking 35 percent of that gas that we would have had to compress through those medium temp compressors. Now we don't have to. So this here is that, that, that gain on this system. Okay, but one of the things that I've been learning about ejectors, especially on the supermarket application, is that if you put ejectors on a standard system in Canada, do you think it's gonna just a standard refrigerator, commercial refrigerator, do you think there's gonna be any benefits?
• 0:34
  Does anybody, what do you guys think?
• 0:34
  Probably, what'd you say? Barely, barely not, why, why?
• 0:34
  Speaker 9: That's right. But you won't be able to talk. As much refrigerant that was initially going to be a bit of a trickle through.
• 0:34
  Trevor: And Sergio took our 12 week design course, so if you want to ask questions, he's the guy who's starting to design transcritical systems, so thank you. Exactly right! We don't have, we're not running all the time in transcritical mode.
• 0:35
  Trevor: And Sergio took our 12 week design course, so if you want to ask questions, he's the guy who's starting to design transcritical systems, so thank you. Exactly right! We don't have, we're not running all the time in transcritical mode.
• 0:35
  We're not, we're not hot. We're not producing that, that mass flow or that, that flash gas. So if we're not producing that flash gas and we have this high, high high efficiency system, but not even being used, why would you do that? Extra cost and extra complexity. One ejectors, Before I move on, is that, now if I'm designing a CO2 heat pump and I put it in Canada, would ejectors be valuable?
• 0:35
  What do you guys think? Extremely valuable, because you're transcritical. All year long. And I'm not gonna, this is not a ejectors course, but there's a huge benefit to have ejectors in heat pumps. Larger heat pumps. And that's why you're seeing more and more manufacturers having ejectors on their systems.
• 0:36
  What do you guys think? Extremely valuable, because you're transcritical. All year long. And I'm not gonna, this is not a ejectors course, but there's a huge benefit to have ejectors in heat pumps. Larger heat pumps. And that's why you're seeing more and more manufacturers having ejectors on their systems. But one of the big things, we're talking about high ambient strategies. High ambient leads to high flash gas. And any way that you can design a system to reduce that flash gas is definitely A way that's going to make your system more efficient. So we did some a case study. This here is from my good friend Nabeel Cook from Omega Solutions.
• 0:36
  This is a proprietary software, so he can just put in certain numbers and it'll, it'll break down all these calculations that we do and I do and I spend hours in. Hours and hours trying to figure it out on the Bitzer software, the Danfoss software, all these different softwares, the Copeland softwares.
• 0:36
  And he has it all, all the compressors, all the gas coolers from all the different manufacturers in here. And so we did it to flash gas bypass versus parallel versus ejectors. So the flash gas bypass on it is 306, 000 kilowatts for an example. Okay. When we did the exact same calculation, all the same numbers, everything exact.
• 0:36
  We did it for parallel compression. On this example we saved, same system, same location, same ambient. We saved and ran it at 292, 000 kilowatts. And this is in Miami, I forgot to mention it. So that's here, in Florida. And then when we did ejectors here, with ejectors, same system, same location, in Miami.
• 0:37
  We did it for parallel compression. On this example we saved, same system, same location, same ambient. We saved and ran it at 292, 000 kilowatts. And this is in Miami, I forgot to mention it. So that's here, in Florida. And then when we did ejectors here, with ejectors, same system, same location, in Miami.
• 0:37
  Ejectors was 245,000. And this is a refrigeration commercial refrigeration application we were targeting. So that was like a 19% savings. So this one here was from 3 0 6 to two 2 9 2. I don't remember exactly what the savings is.
• 0:37
  Seven or five to 7%. But with the ejectors, we're up to a 19% savings on this example. Right. And you can't just take this and say, okay, it's going to be the same in Las Vegas or in Toronto. Oh, actually the savings is right here. I did have it on here. So it's a 4. 64 savings for parallel compression and ejectors is a 19.
• 0:37
  7. And once again, this is design software, theoretical, exactly to the point, but if someone changes one or two of those numbers, they change the different fans on there, it's going to be different. Because we got fan costs in there and fan and kilowatts. We got all of it in there. So you can scan this if you want the full case study for, for Toronto, Las Vegas and Miami.
• 0:38
  7. And once again, this is design software, theoretical, exactly to the point, but if someone changes one or two of those numbers, they change the different fans on there, it's going to be different. Because we got fan costs in there and fan and kilowatts. We got all of it in there. So you can scan this if you want the full case study for, for Toronto, Las Vegas and Miami.
• 0:38
  So you can look through it and you can look through the numbers and teach yourself. So if you get out your phone and just scan that, if you want the case study that me and Omega Solution built, just put your name and email and we'll send that off to you and we'll show you what we did to, to, to look at this.
• 0:38
  But once again, Is this the, I'm getting 19 percent on this example, but is this something that I want to go and start installing? What is the risk? Or what's the challenge? What is that? Complexity is one, okay? Do I have someone who can design it? Do I have someone who can install it? Do I have someone who can service it?
• 0:38
  Do I have someone who can maintenance it? There's a lot.
• 0:38
  Speaker 7: It's essentially just a staging.
• 0:38
  Trevor: It's just an electronic valve. Yeah,
• 0:38
  Speaker 7: well, different stages.
• 0:38
  Trevor: Yeah, and so it doesn't matter if it's a Danfoss or a Corel. I hear lots of different things, Tom. Oh, it's complex and there's more things that can fail. Yeah, of course. I'm driving my car, lots of things can fail too.
• 0:39
  Trevor: Yeah, and so it doesn't matter if it's a Danfoss or a Corel. I hear lots of different things, Tom. Oh, it's complex and there's more things that can fail. Yeah, of course. I'm driving my car, lots of things can fail too.
• 0:39
  There's lots of stuff that I don't know about under the hood when the light comes on. It should
• 0:39
  Speaker 6: be a high pressure valve because a high pressure valve is one thing that can fail. That's more things that can fail, but But you only have one valve at a time. Yeah. And so then you actually have redundancy.
• 0:39
  Yeah. Trevor: Well I hear, I heard, I was with Corel yesterday and my good friend Giacomo said, well you can replace this with a high pressure valve. But I've seen lots of manufacturers still have a high pressure valve besides that, you know what I mean? So, depending on the design, maybe you need a little bit extra load.
• 0:39
  So now I have a high pressure valve as well to, to meet that. So it all depends. There's no one size fits all. So, and I just, that's kind of what I wanted to talk to you about. Ejectives, we're going to see more and more of these in different locations around the world. It's just another refrigeration system.
• 0:39
  Is it complex? At first it's going to be. But as we continue on and learning about this, it's not going to be as complex. And that's it! Understanding design, understanding the systems that are out there are going to be very key. Because like I said, I am seeing designs from every different part of the world.
• 0:40
  Is it complex? At first it's going to be. But as we continue on and learning about this, it's not going to be as complex. And that's it! Understanding design, understanding the systems that are out there are going to be very key. Because like I said, I am seeing designs from every different part of the world.
• 0:40
  People are trying to put transcritical systems in the Huttas. Actually, there's transcritical CO2 system in the Huttas places in the world already. And they're working and they're functioning people in South Africa. I work with been working with co2 11 years and it's warm there all over The north america you're starting to see every I can't say every state but the hottest hottest places there's co2 And don't be you know, don't be afraid of learning and sharing this knowledge So I talked to you today about it.
• 0:40
  If you need assistance, if you need help, if you're looking for a consultant, my friends will make a solution. They can help you out with this. And I got a ton of different design course. So if you know, technicians, supermarket courses, introduction, CO2 service and maintenance, lots of different courses to help technicians as well as design courses for engineering firms and designers.
• 0:40
  We do a lot of this stuff. This is what we do on a daily basis to really help the industry out. So you can ask those questions. And I have a lot of contractors that I talk with, well well, it's, I'm having a conversation with the manufacturer and end user, and I don't really understand the design. Well, maybe if you have someone from your team understand how a system is fully designed, and they can break down the numbers.
• 0:41
  We do a lot of this stuff. This is what we do on a daily basis to really help the industry out. So you can ask those questions. And I have a lot of contractors that I talk with, well well, it's, I'm having a conversation with the manufacturer and end user, and I don't really understand the design. Well, maybe if you have someone from your team understand how a system is fully designed, and they can break down the numbers.
• 0:41
  I've had retailers come to my design course because I'm talking to the manufacturer saying one thing, I'm talking to the engineering firm, they're saying a totally different thing. And so they're coming into the course and they're learning how to do it themselves, and I know we're going to evolve, we're going to see more and more CO2 out there, is it the only solution out there?
• 0:41
  It's not the only solution. But it's one that's going to grow very fast, very rapidly over the next few years. Thank you.