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Where Do You Put Them? · Forged in Fire: The Soldier | The Civilian | The Truth

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  (Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hi listeners, we want to let you know
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  that the mental health of our soldiers, veterans,
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  their families, and all victims of war are
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  our priority.
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  Please note that the following episodes contain sensitive
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  material.
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  Know that you are valued and you don't
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  have to walk through trauma alone.
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  Your stories, your lives, have purpose.
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  Richly Productions presents Forged in Fire, The Soldier,
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  The Civilian, The Truth, starring Leah Vasquez and
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  Richard Cannell.
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  Created, written by A.C. Leo.
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  Hi, how are you?
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  Hi, good.
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  Are you upset?
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  Why would you think that?
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  You look very serious this morning.
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  You're usually smiling.
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  Oh, I was just thinking about my never
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  -ending to-do list.
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  You ready to start?
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  Yeah, sure.
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  Let's go.
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  Okay.
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  So you said only men should be in
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  the army.
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  Why?
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  Well, from my experience, women are panicky.
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  They don't see clearly in chaotic situations because
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  they make emotional decisions instead of like rational
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  ones.
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  That's a big claim.
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  What do you mean by chaotic situations?
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  Like when you're being shot at or someone
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  is cut in half.
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  They make emotional decisions.
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  They'll run to help instead of hunkering down
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  to deal with the threat first before getting
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  to safety.
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  I've seen it happen repeatedly with women in
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  battlefields.
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  Just to be clear, the protocol is to
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  return fire and get to cover.
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  If the wounded can move, they move.
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  If they can't, you drag or carry them
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  when it's safe.
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  Once you're safe enough, medics can start treatment.
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  So in your experience, women soldiers panic, do
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  not follow the standard protocol, and run to
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  the wounded soldier to help them.
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  Yes.
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  Sounds heroic.
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  It's not.
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  They put other soldiers in their unit in
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  danger.
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  In the first story in this book, in
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  chapter one, your commander, a man in a
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  leadership position, and I quote, he had pissed
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  himself, was in the fetal position and rocking
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  back and forth, completely shutting down.
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  That's the body being overwhelmed by fear.
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  I'm not judging him because some people will
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  break under extreme stress.
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  But if we're talking about danger to a
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  unit, a leader who freezes and makes no
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  decision puts everyone in far greater danger than
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  someone who acts alone to save a fellow
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  soldier.
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  At least the soldier who runs toward a
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  wounded fellow soldier is deciding, they're moving, they're
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  actually trying to do something.
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  A commander curled up on the ground, completely
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  shut down, leaves the entire unit with that
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  direction.
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  Absolutely not.
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  He followed the first step of the protocol,
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  take cover.
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  Okay, you're seriously joking, right?
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  That's how you're going to spin this?
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  I'm very serious.
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  And I'm not spinning anything.
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  A soldier who freezes is out of the
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  fight.
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  Useless in that moment, but not necessarily getting
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  the rest killed.
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  Plus, there's always a second in command to
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  take over.
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  A female soldier who runs into the open
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  fire because emotions take over can turn one
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  casualty into three or four in seconds because
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  the rest of the unit would engage in
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  trying to cover her so she wouldn't get
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  shot too.
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  My argument is that discipline matters more than
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  instincts driven by emotions.
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  Training is supposed to override that fight-flight
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  -freeze reaction.
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  The job is to control the impulse to
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  rush in, no matter how badly you want
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  to help.
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  That's the difference between reacting and following protocol.
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  Well, I find it hard to believe that
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  women are the only ones who make that
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  mistake and men do not.
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  In my experience, it is.
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  Okay, I can't argue with your personal experience,
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  but sometimes hundreds, even thousands of soldiers die
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  in wars.
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  Those wars are overwhelmingly fought and led by
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  men, which means mistakes are being made by
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  men too.
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  War is full of them.
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  Of course it is.
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  War is chaos.
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  Nobody fights perfectly.
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  Exactly.
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  So, if mistakes are universal, why single out
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  women as a problem?
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  Men start wars, men command them, men execute
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  them.
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  Those decisions cost lives on a scale far
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  larger than soldiers breaking protocol in the middle
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  of a firefight to try and save a
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  fellow soldier, cut in half as you put
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  it, and pegged as panicky.
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  I'm just talking about what happens at the
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  ground level.
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  When rounds are coming in and you've got
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  seconds to react.
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  Emotions affect both genders.
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  Fear, adrenaline, confusion.
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  You're describing the human nervous system, not a
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  female one.
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  Training is supposed to override all that.
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  But in reality, people still break.
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  Men break, women break, commanders break, soldiers panic.
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  Others run toward danger, some freeze, some fight.
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  It sounds less like a gender issue and
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  more like the unpredictable reality of war.
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  Maybe.
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  But when you're responsible for the lives of
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  the people beside you, patterns matter.
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  What you see repeatedly starts to shape what
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  you trust.
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  And what you trust can also shape what
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  you notice.
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  What you focus on might only be what
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  confirms what you already believe.
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  Maybe that's why you see women panicking more
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  often than men and excuse the men and
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  not the women.
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  That's not how it feels in the field.
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  You see patterns over and over.
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  It's not about bias, it's about survival.
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  I get that.
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  But men freeze too.
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  Isn't the bigger issue that humans break under
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  stress regardless of gender?
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  If the standard is that training is supposed
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  to override instinct, then isn't the question really
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  about training effectiveness and leadership?
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  Partly.
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  Leadership matters, training matters, but who you then
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  trust on the battlefield is everything.
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  So what you're saying is your conclusions come
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  from what you've observed, it reflects your experience.
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  Yes.
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  Experience shapes judgment.
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  That's why I speak from what I've seen.
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  On the ground, there's only action and consequence.
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  I learned to focus on the behaviors that
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  put lives at risk and the ones that
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  keep people alive.
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  And yes, to me, that's the only standard
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  that matters when machine gun rounds are flying.
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  Well, moving forward, when asked what women are
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  good at, you answered only clerical work.
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  Seriously, that's it?
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  But they really are.
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  Women do everything and they are in every
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  job sector in the military.
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  I just don't think they should be.
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  They should not be part of the infantry.
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  You have never thought about a woman in
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  infantry.
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  She is a good infantry soldier.
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  No.
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  Never.
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  Every woman I have ever dealt with in
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  the infantry was lazy.
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  Actually, no, I take that back.
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  There was one and she was a fantastic
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  infantry soldier.
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  She was really tough and she comes from
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  a long family of military people.
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  Both her brothers are in the military and
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  her dad was an infantry battalion officer.
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  So if she wasn't anything other than amazing,
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  the family would have disowned her.
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  So women can be infantry soldiers.
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  She was the exception.
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  More like she proves your point of view
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  is wrong.
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  No, one exception is not the rule.
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  But it does prove the capability exists.
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  If even one woman can meet the standard,
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  then the issue isn't that women can't do
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  the job but your inability to accept it.
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  Infantry is different.
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  It's brutal.
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  Exactly, which means the real dividing line isn't
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  men and women.
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  It's who can meet the standard and who
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  can't.
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  In the infantry, you don't just carry your
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  own weight.
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  Sometimes you carry someone else's too.
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  If the standard drops even a little, the
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  whole unit feels it.
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  I agree, but standards should apply to individuals,
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  not entire genders.
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  I don't understand.
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  With all that you've said that you think
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  it's good that women are in the military.
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  The military is a direct reflection of the
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  society it comes from.
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  Women are part of that society.
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  So yes, it's a good thing they're in
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  the military.
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  The real question is, where do you put
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  them?