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Burnout: The Truth About Work-Life Balance · Bro-ing Pains

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: You're willing to sacrifice your experience in this earth for our limited time that we have for the benefit of your family.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: When I pose that question to some men, they would unequivocally, without even skipping a beat, say yes.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: What's up, world?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Browing Pains, where we have the conversations that live somewhere between your therapist office and the group chat.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Chad, a licensed marriage and family therapist, but my friends like to call me Puppet Chad.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Carlos, a theater kid turned self-proclaimed corporate poppy.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: And a quick reminder: this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you're struggling or know someone who is, please reach out to a licensed mental health professional in your area.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back, everybody.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is season two, episode seven.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've lost count at this point.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: So today we're talking about something that all of us have experienced at one point or another: burnout.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: We normalize a version of success that slowly disconnects us from ourselves, and we call that discipline.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: We call that ambition.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're already thinking, nah, that's not me, just stay with us for a second.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: If being still makes you uncomfortable, or if your sense of worth is tied to how productive you've been that day, this might hit closer than you think.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a big topic for most people our age, because we're all like kind of we we all can relate to this.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just a mental health field kind of a thing, you know, or it's not just a corporate world thing.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's everybody.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so everybody's gonna be able to have an opinion about what's gonna be said on this episode.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: So let's get into our vignette.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is vignette number 005.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing this for us.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Ravi is 39, is senior director at a tech company, married, two kids, his parents immigrated from India with almost nothing, and growing up, success wasn't optional.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was survival, stability, proof that the sacrifice meant something.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Ravi has done more than survive.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: He owns a home, provides well.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: From the outside, it looks like he made in.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: So he doesn't really understand why his wife keeps bringing things up.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing what I'm supposed to do, he says.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: This is what providing looks like.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's not out drinking, he's not checked out in obvious ways.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: He's working, building, securing their future.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: His day starts early, ends late, calls do bleed into dinner, emails get answered from the couch, weekends aren't really off, just quieter.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: He tells himself it's temporary, just this quarter, just until things settle.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: His wife says the kids have started asking why he's always on his laptop.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: He brushes it off.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: They're young, he says.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: They don't get it.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: But there are moments like when his son stops asking him to play, or when his daughter hesitates before coming to him first, or when his wife says, You're here, but you're not really here.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: At work, everything makes sense.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: There are metrics, wins, proof that he is valuable.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: At home, it's slower, messier, harder to measure.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So when she asks him to log off early, he nods and then opens his laptop anyway.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Just one more email, one more push, one more step towards security.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: He tells himself he's doing this for his family, but he doesn't say how much he needs it for himself.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: That almost made me fucking tear up when he said or when you said like when his son stops asking to play or when his daughter hesitates before coming to him first.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's devastating for your children to to like already at such a young age internalize this this feeling of like, oh, I can't go to hit to my dad or or you know, whatever it may be.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's what example are we setting for our fucking children?
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's what he thinks he's supposed to do.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, yeah, like like you said, it's tragic.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's more than a broing pain.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's a it's a tragedy.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it if you're at that point and you're noticing that with your kids, I mean, I can't imagine what that's like.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I I bet you he is a little more introspective than just like, oh, they don't get it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know it the vignette made it sound like that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm sure he does think about it from time to time and feels bad and all that stuff, but yeah, um, doesn't feel like there's a way out, maybe.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: You were saying that you want to talk a bit more about our at least personal experiences or what we've seen from burnout.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just tell us about your experience working in the corporate world before you became a therapist.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: I worked for as a recruiter, and a lot of people were like, oh, that's pretty corporate-y, but I was working as a recruiter for an AmeriCorps program called City Year.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: So for those of you who don't know about AmeriCorps, it's kind of like the Peace Corps, but for the United States.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like different programs and projects, like doing service basically for the community.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: I was a recruiter, basically going and recruiting out of the Sacramento region for college students to go do AmeriCorps programs.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that was like as close, I think, as I got to like a corporate job because I was like using Salesforce.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, you know, connecting with things like that.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you're like sitting behind a desk all day.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I would say I was traveling a lot too.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I was going to career fairs and visiting campuses.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that way to me, like it was it was not so much of a corporate like greed thing, like it was for a really good cause, right?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're helping kids in education and um recruiting people to, you know, go do this really cool program.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So to me, I never really felt like I was like, I don't know, in that like nine to five grind, like corporate working for the man type of thing.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: So in in that respect, I have been incredibly privileged to not have that experience.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: Did I work myself to the bone and work too much and take too much responsibility and you know, felt like I wasn't doing enough all the time like every other place in my life?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sure.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: I definitely did that.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't so much like, oh the boss man or the boss lady is making me like it wasn't really like that.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of like I was always working for an organization or company that that I felt positive about.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So then your transition to being a therapist wasn't more so about wanting more fulfillment in your, I mean, I guess to a certain extent, but like it it was more about just like wanting to have a different level of impact, right?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just wanted to have something that uh was really meaningful, but also I think fit my personality and my skill sets and and my passion.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I just didn't feel like there was anything else that I found other than therapy that was as impactful as I think I could be.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: You had a different experience for sure.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because did you have you ever worked like a fast food job or like a corporate job or something like that?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, I did.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of my first jobs out of uh college was the law firm.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'd never in my life imagined that it would be that I would stay there for seven years of my life.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that was very much a corporate job, you know, like wear wearing like slac and a dress shirt to work and sitting behind a desk all day.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And being a child of immigrant parents, I think that that I felt uh initially I felt a lot of pride in that of like, oh, I'm I'm doing I've achieved what my parents sort of wanted for me, like being educated and then having a nice job, you know what I mean, and and like being able to support myself and things like that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, very, very quickly it just becomes soul sucking and and just like incredibly I would say limiting also, like if d depending on I mean, in my uh circumstance, it was incredibly limiting because it was a law firm.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I have no interest in the in the legal world, you know what I mean?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so from the very beginning there was a ceiling for me.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I felt that I needed to to get out of there.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: What was soul sucking about it?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think I want to get more clear on that.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you that you didn't just say I didn't like it, you said soul sucking, and I'm like, I think a lot of people could relate to that, but I want to just kind of call it what it is.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what what was soul sucking about it?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it got to the point where I was working full time and not even able to pay my bills.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's how bad it got, to where I was doing this mindless sort of task, you know, like feeling like I I could do this shit in my sleep and then didn't even have enough to to like support myself.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's when I knew, like, oh no, this is doing me more harm than it is good.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so like that, so that's what I mean by by soul sucking, where it was like literally draining.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, what sort of positive is this bringing to my life at this point?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just I don't know, just reflecting about how many people end up that in that position, but then you know, having to make the choice to figure out what you're gonna do differently.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and we we've talked about a little bit of your archetype and your journey too, of where you are now, like, and deciding that you wanting more for yourself.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't necessarily from the outside looking in from my perspective, it wasn't so much more like monetarily, it was more excitement, engagement in your life, upward mobility possibilities.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Can I make this into a career?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: I felt a little vibe from you, like life is too short to just not try, and I should just try to do something, you know what I mean?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think tying it back to what you said, like there is this thought around upward mobility is I think has has always been one of my it's important to me, and and I think that it's um it's sort of in all areas of my life.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I want to to be able to challenge myself and to to have better and and like you said, this idea of life is too short.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So like why not try?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Why not bet on yourself?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why not take a risk, you know what I mean?
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because you you you never know where it's gonna end up.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to live with any sort of regrets at the end of my life, you know what I mean?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would rather live with knowing how things turned out and that I actually tried instead of being like, man, I should have done X, Y, and V, you know.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that that kind of feeds a little bit more into like this potential like downfall though, to what I'm feeling is like you said, like having this desire for upward mobility has been a i is a priority for you and probably for many people listening.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the borrowing pain would be it would be centered around how much do I want to value upward mobility versus peace and happiness?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel like I brought this up once already on the podcast.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where is that line between ambition and burnout?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's it's it's incredibly common or something that you know a lot of people can relate to.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that at the at the end of the day for me, I'm not willing to sacrifice my mental health for for a for a paycheck or whatever.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that there's um just a push back and play devil's advocate.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's not just a paycheck.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's opportunity, it's experiences, it's travel, it's your livelihood.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Your livelihood, your legacy of being able to pass down to children or cousins or whatever, nephews, nieces, um, you know, that those things are important.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the argument that I get a lot from the men that I work with in the in the room is that like prioritizing your mental health and your happiness obviously, ideally would be a priority, but it's not as big as a priority as ensuring that I could provide a lifestyle for me and my family that I think they deserve.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like this is even more point point how do you say that word poignant?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: More relevant, even more relevant.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just change the word completely.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Just change the word.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I I think this is even more relevant after uh our episode with with Dr.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Kupleton.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: The market is in crisis, and so it feels like it feels like uh the the stakes are higher, it's even more of like a life or death situation, you know what I mean?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and something that resonated with me in that episode was like this idea of like feeling stuck or feeling feeling like you you have very little options.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, well, kind of have to suck it up and and suck today's done.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's really hard, you know.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I've worked with um people, you know, in the work in the Bay Area, in the you know, tech world and things like that.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like there's so many pros to, you know, and now they make it so much more enticing to to work at these places.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they have food for you, they got free transportation, they got, you know, it's just like all the perks and benefits that kind of comes with it.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like you look at that from the outside looking in, like that looks really nice.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot of sacrifice that happens with that, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's high expectation jobs, it's pressure, it's working overtime and not being paid for it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's it's a lot.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think it's something that is very common and a lot of people can relate to.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: But what does burnout look like exactly?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, I feel like it's different for everybody.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: I have a friend who is a therapist who also has a full-time corporate job, who also has a kid and a stepkid and a husband and the house.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I could keep going and looking to expand their therapy business, I should keep going.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And does yoga and works out.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can um, it's just like to me, I'm like, I I I'm I'm burnt out, I can't do that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: But some people operate at different levels, you know.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that like when I look at like her in particular, for example, like I do feel like there's someone who's very balanced and someone who prioritizes relationships, just basically a complete badass.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, I'm like, oh, you're gonna burn out.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Even like our supervisor when we were like training was like, you're gonna need to, you know, take time off, you're gonna burn out, you're gonna burn out.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, I mean, I don't know.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Seems fine to me.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, seems like she's doing great.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: She's not resentful of her clients and saying weird things or whatever, you know, like that's she's throwing jabs at everybody.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, because that's a that's one of the key things I see in the therapy world is therapists basically um yeah, throwing jabs at their at their clients, and and I don't know if I should say that actually, too.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: One of the big things that I see from burnouts with therapists is that there's this like frustration or um they get upset for the lack of progress that they feel like they're seeing within a particular client.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Let's check in with ourselves about why that is.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how many, how many weeks off are you taking?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I've created my business plan with my private practice that I I take off six weeks a year minimum.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I I work 46 weeks.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people only get two weeks of vacation a year.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: I I take I take six weeks of vacation a year.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I I need that.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I every every one, I'm like, I need to take this time off.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: But something that that came to mind for me was was like uh I think it's common in in the tech world where like they give you unlimited PTO, unlimited PTO, and then it's like nah, bitch, you can't actually take this PTO because you you have all of these fucking deliverables that you have to need.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like a cash 22 there.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know why they do that, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because on your PTO, they have to pay that out if you ever leave.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you don't rack up any PTO and you're not racking up 200 hours of PTO, they don't have to pay you out if you ever leave.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's some bullshit.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they did wow, that they these cheap ass bastards, dude.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: They were doing the math, like these people aren't taking time off.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just say that it's unlimited and they still won't take time off, and we'll keep more money.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's such bullshit.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's pretty smart.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: The other thing that I see a lot that I think maybe Ravi is feeling as well is there's so much uh positive feedback from work.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: So the workaholic thing is not so much driven by money that I see a lot in the room.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: I do see a lot of it from the validation and the acceptance and the praise.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, a lot of praise, a lot of validation, feeling like you're on top of the world at work.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're the man, you're the you're the ideas guy, you're the smart guy, you're the you're the something.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, when you're at home, particularly men who have kids, you know, they're like, so I already mentioned that we're having a baby and go to the birthing class and um, you know, preparing for birth and talking about uh breastfeeding as a man or as a partner, right?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I you start to feel like you you're you're not important, you're not needed at that time.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like the the mother is the one who's required at that time for the survival.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm I'm like seeing it from a different perspective now as I'm entering into fatherhood is like, oh, like that's just gonna kind of compound over years of like, okay, well, mom knows best.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like she says this is what the baby needs.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like she spent more time with him, or she has that personal connection, or those nine months in the womb, and they know what they kind of need.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, you can tell like a tech bro, Ravi, coming home from from work, like, you know, you you don't feel adequate.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: You don't feel that you can provide you, you're not the smart one of the family household units.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's not as enticing.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that it's it's that feeling of like, well, I don't know how else to contribute than by doing that by working and and providing financially.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, that's that's his biggest value.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, you know, does his partner and his kids, you know, if they're if they're older, eventually they they're gonna be so appreciative of all that time and all the work that they put in to provide for college funds and all this stuff.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, it is valuable.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that what you're doing is not valuable.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's just how do you want to live your life and what is more important to you and what are your values?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it it is it the most important to you that you want to make sure that you're setting up your family for financial peace and success.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: You're willing to sacrifice your experience in this earth for our limited time that we have, but you're telling me that you're willing to give that up for the benefit of your family.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And when I pose that question to some men, they would unequivocally, without even skipping a beat, say yes.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, the reason why I do this work is because I find sadness in that.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's a judgment from me.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's a judgment of like, oh well, I think I know what's better for your life, kind of thing, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: But to me, when you when you're a man and you feel like your experience on a day-to-day is not a priority, it is what you are providing for your family, right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: That is just like that's the saddest thing.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: I I can't, I I don't know anything I do know things sadder, but it's it's it's incredibly sad.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: This all just sort of ties back into you know this this theme that we've we're we're talking about this season, where it's like some men truly don't know how to express that, right?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Or or or even know that that it's uh it's an issue, it's it's something that they're they're grappling with, which is why then they turn to substances or or whatever it may be as a form of escape.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or in in this in this episode's case, like a promotion.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like I oh, I can try to hit these metrics, or I could try to just do this, and I hit my KPIs, and next thing you know, I'm available to see.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a little bit I got the corporate uh lingo.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: The lingo down KPIs, you know, look at that.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Ask me what they stand for, I couldn't tell you, but that's something.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that's for key performance indicators.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, corporate poppy here.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Let's go.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Dimen must.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Dimen mast.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: Go ahead, little mama.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you more than that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's as far as I know.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Instead of like leaning into a substance, I was saying like, you know, in this instance, it's leaning into a promotion.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's leaning into, you know, if I, you know, hit these metrics, if I hit these KPIs, then I'll be able to have that kind of high of like, oh wow, I feel good.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I feel, I feel like I'm being recognized.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: This is when I feel the most happy, is when other people recognize my value that I'm putting into something.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: Every group project I've ever been a part of, every time I scored a touchdown and I saw look into the stands and my dad was blah, blah, blah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, these are the things that get reinforced in our head where people value you based off of your performance.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: You can see how it's a vicious loop.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: You just want to make sure you keep getting that hit.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's um it's a question that I don't really know the answer to, and I don't think there is one.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: If you are in a position of an opportunity to dive into work and sacrifice your own personal experience and happiness, um, should you do it?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I think the answer is different for everybody, and I I I don't I don't I don't know which one's more optimal.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Something else that I that came to mind for me was was the specific to like generations and and how different generations have different work ethics.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're seeing a lot more uh millennials and especially Gen Z pushing back on that narrative of work is life.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: The hill that I want to die on is protect your fucking mental health, protect your your work life balance, and and setting boundaries is is healthy, I think.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and like Yeah, actually, I have a recommendation for people that find themselves in that situation.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And it I'm relating a lot to my clients who work in the first responder world.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, first responder, like firefighters, EMTs, doctors, surgeons, things like that.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, these people work sometimes, you know, really long hours.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you can be a scheduled for a 10, 12 hour shift, and it can easily turn into a 20-hour shift.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you talk about like work-life balance, like that doesn't really work for that field.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And at first, that's a good point.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: My first thought was like, okay, well, then if your priorities do align with wanting to have work-life balance and be there for your kids and blah, blah, blah, maybe we need to get a different career.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: But that is also, I think, limiting on on my part.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: That that was I wanted to challenge myself on that and be like, well, I mean, some people are really passionate about this work.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they really want to serve, and that this is like the way they can do that.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: What were you gonna say?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna challenge me?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, for for what?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna say, please continue.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we we need more doctors, we need more nurses, we need more first responders.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hang in there.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Don't give up.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Please continue.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, but at the end of the day, it is a very nuanced topic.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like these first responders obviously have a different lifestyle.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: They also, I mean, they're they're coming to see you for a reason.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's true.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we won't get into exactly why, but um one of the recommendations that I've been kind of working with and grappling with, not only by myself, but like with some of my clients, is like, how can you challenge your employer to be more flexible?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if if you're if your priority ultimately is your family, right?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how can you allow opportunities within your day-to-day work and the career that you choose?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: Let's say it's a tech bro, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you are answering emails in the evening time, but maybe it's centered around a time where your kids are doing homework and it feels like everyone in the family is kind of doing work time, but then you will take time off of work to like pick up your kids from school and like go play with them and make their snack and make, you know what I mean?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's ways that I think you can be really intentional about your values and your priorities and still be a really awesome tech bro senior director, right?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like you you can do both.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: I just think that when people in Bravey's situation are like, you know, I just I I can't spend time with kids or I can't play with my son.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm just like, okay, but yes, you can.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: Let's find a time and a way to make that happen.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Going back to to just how sad that is that at the at the end of the day that you're you're teaching modeling to to your children that daddy is busy and and does not have enough time for you.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like Yeah.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Especially for a young kid.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like they can't.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: They don't understand the nuance, like, okay, he doesn't have time for you right now versus doesn't have time for you because of you, right?
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Or because of who you are, or something like my dad never loved me.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they they they play these narratives in their head, um, you know, and then they're just kids, they don't have perspective.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: It is very common, and a lot I think a lot of people can relate to of of like parents.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even for you in your situation, right?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like your your parents were very young and raising two kids.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the the sort of trade-off, right?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like they maybe they didn't have enough or spend enough time with you and your brother because they had to work and you know, X, Y, and Z.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's what's crazy, is I don't know how they spent, I mean, a ton of time with me and my brother.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I could never say that my parents were not there.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they were at every single like field trip as a kid, going support.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, dude, they were all up involved in our business.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like they they were extremely involved.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just crazy thinking back on it, like how they did all this.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess like thinking about this episode, like they they didn't prioritize their experience.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: It was all for the kids.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they still managed to fuck it up.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Did you say it still managed to fuck it up?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, what one of the reasons I think there's a downside to that, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is like, well, then what kind of tension does that create in the home?
• 28:38
  unknown: Right.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: If you're not taking care of your own self and your needs and your mental health, that's not a priority.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's gonna that's that's gonna have an effect on your family, right?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be more irritable, you're gonna be, you know, easy to be tempered, you're gonna be um not as flexible and willing to like have your kids make mistakes that cost you money, lots of money sometimes, right?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's gonna be, you know, you're gonna have quick reactions and things like that.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, the the there's there's trade-offs to this, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, did they did were they involved with every single thing in my life and gave me every single thing I could probably ever need and definitely even want to?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, they did, but there was a downside to that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would would uh close that by saying that um how do you expect to fill up other people's cups if you if your own cup isn't full, you know?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that's something that I always go back to of like it's important to take care of yourself first in order to be able to care for others.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: But again, I you know, I think about you know, you got young kids, like it's like you you quickly start not thinking that you are a priority.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's natural.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you're yes you worry about?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's that because I've done I've done so much work on myself.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean uh still in therapy a decade later.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want I don't want to lose that momentum.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't I don't want that to just go all out the window because of a primal instinct or something.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yeah, for sure.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then as a as a man too, definitely.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I'm already I'm already noticing it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm already noticing it.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: What exactly when I'm thinking about what I'm gonna do for the day, um being more centered around what my wife needs and how we can prep for the baby's arrival.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Not like what does Chad need today?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And on a on a bad day, that doesn't even come up.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: On a good day, maybe I will think about that, but yeah, I I I'm already noticing that that is a thing.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I you know, I think it's it's um understandable, isn't it?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: But I I have faith in both of you that you're going to uh sort of like the the checks and balances of it all in a main.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, you're a team in the main and and you're like uh you got each other's backs in that way.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna do great.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad that we did this episode because it's something that I still feel like in my young 30s and still feel like young 30s?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're right.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting I'm I'm pushing 34 here in September, so I think it's safe to say mid 30s now.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can drop that young bitch.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do I?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I if I'm still 33, I could keep the young.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: Early 30s.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: How about early 30s?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: You got you, I'll give you that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm glad we did this episode because, you know, as someone who's in their early 30s and um still like a baby therapist, I feel like I think when I think about what is important in life with this particular question when it comes to being a workaholic or not, or focusing more on your mental health and all that stuff, I think the question that I come to is what am I going to think about on my deathbed?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of like what you said earlier about like regrets.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think we have an answer to that.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: We do have an answer from Happiness Research saying that, you know, people who have quality relationships and connection are happier.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is happiness the ultimate goal for you?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: I I I don't know.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: For the listener listening, is is that your ultimate goal or is it something else?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And are you going to regret that other goal?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's the browing pain for me, is that it it is at the end of the day, it is a very nuanced topic.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like especially circing circling back to like we are in a time that is incredibly difficult for everybody, and and to like, yeah, it makes sense that you may not feel like you have the sort of time and energy to focus on yourself right now, where well, like there there are other things there are people out there dying, Kim, you know.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know when that's fun?
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, who's Kim?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's a quote from uh the Kardashians where uh Kim Kardashian is crying about losing a fucking diamond earring in the ocean, and so her sister's like, it's like there's people out there dying, Kim.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's it's it's very real.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it is a nuanced topic, and so we don't have the answers to it, but but I think it it's important to have these conversations at least.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: At the at the bare minimum, I you know, I think it's it's important to have these conversations.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, at least have a conversation about it because so many people find themselves exactly where this guy is.
• 34:20
  unknown: Right.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think just like bringing some awareness to it and being more being more intentional about the choices that you're making in your life, and maybe you can be a little more happier.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so uh we'll leave you with this closing question.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we want you to really sit with this question for a second.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you stripped away everything you produce, your job, your responsibilities, the ways you show up for other people, would you feel at peace with that version of yourself?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for joining us, everyone.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, stay tuned as we're getting towards the end here, I can't believe, of season two.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, our next uh episode's theme is continuing our season one discussion from season one discussion of understanding attachment styles.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's understanding how within covert male depression, how are men potentially hiding um behind uh their attachment styles and and maybe avoiding um their happiness and conversations and a more fulfilling relationship.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: So super excited to build off of that one from season one.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for hanging with us for another episode of Browing Pains.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: If this episode has shifted your perspective at all, don't just keep it to yourself.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Pass it on.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Follow us on TikTok and Instagram at Growing Pains to stay tapped in with the community.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And if you've got a story, question, or a hot take you want us to unpack, slide into our inbox at growing painspod at gmail.com.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: We'd love to hear from you.