Latest / The Everyday Awesome Project / 124: Complicated Mother-Daughter Relationships: Love, Boundaries, and Distance with Nisse Noble

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124: Complicated Mother-Daughter Relationships: Love, Boundaries, and Distance with Nisse Noble · The Everyday Awesome Project

• 0:27
  Polly Mertens: Hey superstars, welcome back.
• 0:29
  Polly Mertens: Polly here, and I am delighted to be joined today by a dear friend of mine.
• 0:34
  Polly Mertens: Hello, Nissa.
• 0:35
  Polly Mertens: Hello.
• 0:37
  Polly Mertens: Welcome, welcome everyone.
• 0:38
  Polly Mertens: This is Nissa Noble, and I want to do a little intro.
• 0:42
  Polly Mertens: I'll give the personal side and then I'll give maybe your sort of pseudo-professional side because you're not just a dear friend of mine.
• 0:48
  Polly Mertens: Like you're like known out in the world, like big time.
• 0:52
  Polly Mertens: So we have an influencer in the house, y'all.
• 0:55
  Polly Mertens: So Nissa, we've known each other maybe like 10.
• 0:59
  Polly Mertens: Oh, let me just introduce the topic.
• 1:01
  Polly Mertens: Sorry, I'll just say that as well.
• 1:02
  Polly Mertens: So today we're gonna be talking about navigating complicated mother-daughter relationships.
• 1:07
  Polly Mertens: And this is my bestie in terms of going to someone when I got just I got hairballs in my relationship with my mom.
• 1:16
  Polly Mertens: And Nissa and I like we relate on this.
• 1:18
  Polly Mertens: So a couple, well, maybe like a month ago, I was like, well, you were giving me some great coaching and advice, and I said, We gotta have you on.
• 1:25
  Polly Mertens: And so Nissa is just so wonderful in terms of being so we've known each other probably 10 years.
• 1:33
  Polly Mertens: And at least.
• 1:34
  Polly Mertens: At least, yeah.
• 1:35
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, we've been in a mastermind group.
• 1:37
  Polly Mertens: Um, we started as lean-in, and now it's just women who love on each other and we play and we hang out and we support each other, and it's just a space of unconditional love and awesomeness.
• 1:47
  Polly Mertens: Um, and I'm just really great to call you one of my best friends.
• 1:50
  Polly Mertens: So that's it.
• 1:51
  Nisse Noble: I feel very grateful to have you, Polly.
• 1:53
  Polly Mertens: So that's our personal relationship.
• 1:55
  Polly Mertens: And this beauty, like when I think of one of the most creative and talented people I personally know in the world, uh yeah, it's you.
• 2:06
  Polly Mertens: Like, hands down, like Nyssa can generate beauty and creativity, and her mind is just gorgeous.
• 2:14
  Polly Mertens: She created, so she's on her fourth like startup, like she's a serial entrepreneur, has done everything from e-commerce and other things I don't even know about, but like your most recent adventures are into um, you know, supplementation, supplements, right?
• 2:29
  Polly Mertens: Mushroom supplements.
• 2:30
  Polly Mertens: You can talk about that if you'd like.
• 2:32
  Polly Mertens: And then the fun thing, I think, is out of your relationship with your mom, you created something called Planet Gale, which is an Instagram, TikTok.
• 2:41
  Polly Mertens: Like that's your channel, that's your voice, that's your creative outlet with you and your mom.
• 2:46
  Polly Mertens: And I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that.
• 2:48
  Polly Mertens: And it's not just, oh yeah, there's just this channel that like girl was on like uh, you know, Good Morning America online and CBS interviewed her and her mom multiple times.
• 2:58
  Polly Mertens: So, like, not just you know, like, oh, but's and around, like you were creating a buzz.
• 3:03
  Polly Mertens: So tell us maybe tell me a little bit about Planet Gale and like where this started.
• 3:09
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, I would love to.
• 3:10
  Nisse Noble: Um, and first of all, thanks for having me on, Polly.
• 3:12
  Nisse Noble: I feel and for the for the warm fuzzies, that feels good.
• 3:16
  Nisse Noble: Um, yeah, I'm uh I am on to my fourth founder adventure now.
• 3:21
  Nisse Noble: So it's a supplement call company.
• 3:23
  Nisse Noble: It's a supplement company called Third Nature.
• 3:26
  Nisse Noble: And I founded that after decades of burnout, and the goal is to help passionate people find their third nature, which we define as the state of flow when you're doing your thing.
• 3:40
  Nisse Noble: So uh that's one project.
• 3:44
  Nisse Noble: The other project that's very near and dear to my heart is Planet Gale.
• 3:48
  Nisse Noble: So in terms of plant of complicated mother-daughter relationships, that community was born out of my desire to learn how to love my mom.
• 4:01
  Nisse Noble: And I started it on TikTok, just creating videos as a way to see my mom differently, to process who she is without you know, all of the the all of my past experience with her.
• 4:20
  Nisse Noble: And it it went absolutely viral.
• 4:24
  Nisse Noble: There's over 700,000 Galians now, which is what we call them.
• 4:29
  Nisse Noble: They um are some of the most the kindest, weirdest, most lovable people in the world.
• 4:37
  Nisse Noble: It's a really amazing community, and yes, um it was the story was picked up by CBS News multiple times, Good Morning America Online, AARP.
• 4:47
  Nisse Noble: So it it definitely resonated, and I think at the core of that is what we're talking about today, which is complicated mother-daughter relationships, complicated parent-child relationships.
• 4:59
  Nisse Noble: So I think it's a it's a topic that a lot of people can relate to.
• 5:03
  Polly Mertens: And I just want to insert here for if you haven't uh you know been to Planet Gale before, just uh like a little background from my you know outside in perspective, and I'm happy if you want to share more, but really we want to go into the meat of like this dynamic.
• 5:16
  Polly Mertens: And what I saw you doing with your mom is, you know, um you had lost your your dad, you know, a few years before that, and then your mom was, you know, becoming older, and then you guys you were starting to need to take care of her more, right?
• 5:31
  Polly Mertens: Just like you know, my mom and we've had conversations around that, you know, when we get this generation that your parents age, and then you're having way more interactions with your mom, you know, and it's one thing when your mom's like, okay, I see you, you know, kind of thing, and then you're either full-time caretaking or part-time caretaking or response the responsible family member because you have brothers and sisters, you know, and it's like, well, it's on you, right?
• 5:53
  Polly Mertens: And you had to relocate her and all these things, right?
• 5:57
  Polly Mertens: And you really dove in and got to know your mom more during those years, too.
• 6:01
  Polly Mertens: You know, I mean, well, you couldn't help it.
• 6:03
  Polly Mertens: I mean, like you're spending more time with her and stuff, but she had this um I wouldn't call it unique, but passionate, because some people, you know, you've got a lot of Galians that are like this, I think.
• 6:14
  Polly Mertens: She was very unusual, kind of like a a flower child, I would say, a little bit kind of came out of that jump.
• 6:19
  Nisse Noble: Oh, not a little bit.
• 6:20
  Nisse Noble: She's a lot.
• 6:21
  Nisse Noble: She was weird.
• 6:23
  Nisse Noble: And full on weird.
• 6:25
  Nisse Noble: And it that is something that I that is a word that I embraced, that my mom embraced.
• 6:30
  Nisse Noble: And it's actually a fun topic on Planet Gale because there's a lot of people that get angry that I call my mom weird.
• 6:38
  Nisse Noble: And we see weird as a good thing on Planet Gale.
• 6:43
  Nisse Noble: Like it is you being authentic, it's you being different, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 6:49
  Nisse Noble: That's not weird, isn't a bad word.
• 6:51
  Nisse Noble: So I think calling my mom weird is accurate.
• 6:56
  Polly Mertens: Mm-hmm.
• 6:56
  Polly Mertens: Okay, so she was weird and this level of we'll call it a generous streak or something.
• 7:02
  Polly Mertens: Like she had this daily habit or routine of gifting.
• 7:06
  Polly Mertens: I don't know how you call it on Planet Gale, but that's right.
• 7:09
  Nisse Noble: We call it aggressive generosity.
• 7:11
  Nisse Noble: Okay, aggressive generosity.
• 7:14
  Nisse Noble: It's got its own language.
• 7:15
  Nisse Noble: I'll put that in the dictionary, right?
• 7:17
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 7:17
  Nisse Noble: What is that?
• 7:18
  Nisse Noble: It's aggressive because she won't take no for an answer.
• 7:22
  Nisse Noble: So you are going, you are going to get whatever she wants to give you, whether you want it or not.
• 7:29
  Nisse Noble: It's it is aggressive.
• 7:30
  Nisse Noble: She will she would run across the street to fill somebody's parking meter.
• 7:34
  Nisse Noble: She would, you know, go into the post office every day and give them muffins, whether they wanted the muffins or not.
• 7:40
  Nisse Noble: Guess what?
• 7:41
  Nisse Noble: If you want a muffin, you're gonna get 12 muffins.
• 7:44
  Nisse Noble: And there is, you know.
• 7:46
  Polly Mertens: Yes.
• 7:47
  Nisse Noble: It's just a a driving passion of hers.
• 7:52
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 7:52
  Polly Mertens: So that's so that I think is a little bit of where the story got picked up and and more.
• 7:57
  Polly Mertens: I mean, you're such a good storyteller.
• 7:58
  Polly Mertens: I mean, you knew helped paint the story of who your mom was.
• 8:02
  Polly Mertens: Like, I think part of that was your journey of seeing it through new lenses, and then you were able to s create that story and curate it in a way that was like how like you could have empathy and love and stop being, you know, like I at times still feel like the victim of, you know, the relationship and the complicatedness or whatever, but you flipped that and you were like, wow, you know, there's there's a good human here, right?
• 8:24
  Polly Mertens: And what's that story?
• 8:26
  Nisse Noble: Right.
• 8:26
  Nisse Noble: Right, a hundred percent.
• 8:27
  Nisse Noble: I mean that tool was what I used.
• 8:33
  Nisse Noble: I and I wouldn't say it was that it created empathy or that it created um tolerance or however you want to describe it.
• 8:42
  Nisse Noble: I would say that it allowed me to embrace those feelings because I think when we have complex relationships with parents, it's not it's not that we don't feel those things.
• 8:57
  Nisse Noble: It's not that we don't love them, it's not that we don't have empathy for them, it's that the pain overrides it and we can't access it.
• 9:05
  Nisse Noble: And and so how do we find a place where feeling empathy for them, feeling love for them also feels safe to ourselves?
• 9:16
  Nisse Noble: And for me, it was about creating a different vantage point for my mom.
• 9:24
  Nisse Noble: And I did that through creating videos and seeing it as a movie or a TV show.
• 9:33
  Nisse Noble: I think when we make that, when we make that change in our viewpoint about it, then we remove ourselves from it.
• 9:41
  Nisse Noble: We can see the mom, you know, we can be in the drama or Yeah, we can see that you know, mom is has main character energy all on her own.
• 9:52
  Nisse Noble: Right?
• 9:53
  Nisse Noble: And sometimes she plays a part in our story and sometimes we play a part in hers, but maybe it's my artistic nature, but I do see things as movies, I see them as as stories and TV shows, and and so for me it was an easy way to flip the script a little bit so that I could see it differently.
• 10:18
  Polly Mertens: Well, I just want to say that, and you know, I would watch, you know, through the TikToks and videos and stuff, like how you're telling your mom and stuff, and just our relationship, you and I, how helpful you were to me.
• 10:31
  Polly Mertens: And we I think we helped each other both directions at times, you know, just a a sounding board, and a lot of what I want to do in this conversation is just have a conversation about this.
• 10:42
  Polly Mertens: I would told you, you know, before we went on air how, you know, I had an eating disorder, you know, a food addiction for 20 years.
• 10:48
  Polly Mertens: And when I walked into a room where other people were talking about something that was so shameful and hidden for me, and this topic actually feels like that for me too, you know, and it's like, let's talk about this, you know, like you and I are not in the mom of the year award-winning mom category.
• 11:05
  Polly Mertens: We didn't hit that lottery or whatever you want to call it.
• 11:07
  Polly Mertens: Like we, you know, your mom's your mom and my mom was my mom, and they had some similarities, right?
• 11:11
  Polly Mertens: And so we could have someone to talk to about this that understood and is like, what do you do?
• 11:17
  Polly Mertens: And so let's talk about some of the things that you and I commonly like hit upon, and maybe like some of our you know, shared experience of like what it was growing, what it was like growing up with a mom like this, both as a child and then as a plenty modern, you know, adult.
• 11:32
  Polly Mertens: Like, you know, it was it was different.
• 11:35
  Polly Mertens: One of the things that um as I dug into this, you know, and preparing for our calls, like you and I would both say that at some age the rule flipped and like you became the mom and she became the child, right?
• 11:47
  Polly Mertens: But do you remember when that was, or would would you agree with that?
• 11:49
  Nisse Noble: Like Oh, yeah.
• 11:51
  Nisse Noble: I mean, I rem I remember from a very young age, my mom would often say, Let's bring Nissa along so that we have an adult.
• 12:01
  Nisse Noble: I was maybe eight.
• 12:05
  unknown: Oh jeez.
• 12:08
  Nisse Noble: So very early.
• 12:10
  Nisse Noble: Very early.
• 12:11
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, so you were already like demonstrating that and and right, and like what child gets born and knows that, right?
• 12:18
  Polly Mertens: No, we we adapt, right?
• 12:20
  Polly Mertens: Like we see something, and so there's this, there's a phrase out there, and I just want to like put it into the conversation called parentification, and it's when the child becomes more like the caretaker in the relationship, right?
• 12:31
  Polly Mertens: Whether that's caretaking at an older age, and you and I I would say it was like more caretaking.
• 12:35
  Polly Mertens: Like my mom was alcoholic, she wasn't like a fall-down drunk at home or something, had to put her into bed, but you know, just looking after myself, right, was one thing, and I'm guessing you had some of that.
• 12:44
  Polly Mertens: And maybe there was some emotional caretaking for that person, right?
• 12:47
  Polly Mertens: Um, and maybe practically, you know, like doing your shopping or putting yourself on the school bus or whatever.
• 12:53
  Polly Mertens: Was that like how it was for you?
• 12:55
  Polly Mertens: And like you said, take you know, going along with them to make sure they didn't get in trouble or whatever, right?
• 13:00
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, I mean, definitely.
• 13:02
  Nisse Noble: I remember packing my own lunches for kindergarten.
• 13:05
  Nisse Noble: I remember, you know, I moved out at 15 at very much on my own all the time.
• 13:11
  Nisse Noble: Uh, you know, I would describe my childhood as us kids were kind of like outside cats, you know, we had food and you could come in and you could like be have your needs cared for, but there just wasn't much in the way of emotional support or you know, my parents were around, but they weren't emotionally available.
• 13:36
  Polly Mertens: Exactly.
• 13:37
  Polly Mertens: It's it's the thing, it's like we weren't abandoned.
• 13:40
  Polly Mertens: It wasn't like, oh, they were never.
• 13:41
  Polly Mertens: I mean, you know, my mom worked a lot, so like she wasn't there a lot, but like we weren't not like there was a roof over our head.
• 13:48
  Polly Mertens: There were there weren't like some of the dramatic, traumatic things that people really point to and say, like, that was child abuse or something like that.
• 13:55
  Polly Mertens: And that's not what we're saying here.
• 13:56
  Polly Mertens: It was like roof over our head, well educated.
• 13:59
  Polly Mertens: Your mom and your dad were super wicked bright, you know.
• 14:02
  Polly Mertens: My mom quite very smart.
• 14:04
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:04
  Polly Mertens: But the emotional immaturity is is where it yeah.
• 14:08
  Polly Mertens: So now fast forward that, like, and that never changed, right?
• 14:13
  Polly Mertens: Like your dynamic with your mom, if it was like mine, like once it was that way, it was always that way, right?
• 14:18
  Nisse Noble: Right.
• 14:19
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:21
  Nisse Noble: So no, that that dynamic in my relationship with my mom never changed.
• 14:27
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:27
  Polly Mertens: So this is just like a hallmark.
• 14:29
  Polly Mertens: And like I said, there's no so we're calling this like complicated mother-daughter relationships.
• 14:34
  Polly Mertens: Um, and one of the phrases I was like looking up for this, and and I don't think we would call it this, was like, you know, toxic mom, you know, and that that throwing that word around isn't it.
• 14:43
  Polly Mertens: And I think we would just want to talk about some of the things that were present, you know, this reverse roles, if you will.
• 14:50
  Polly Mertens: I would say, and tell me this is it.
• 14:52
  Polly Mertens: So I'm gonna label it a couple of them or name a couple of them, like emotionally draining or unpredictable.
• 14:57
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:59
  Polly Mertens: Um, makes everything about her, or it felt like there was a lot of like it roll the world revolves around her most times.
• 15:06
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 15:06
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 15:07
  Polly Mertens: Um, how about guilt tripping, controlling, or manipulative?
• 15:10
  Polly Mertens: I don't know that your mom was that much.
• 15:13
  Nisse Noble: No, I I don't I don't think she was.
• 15:15
  Nisse Noble: I mean, she was um unwell and unstable, but her intention wasn't to do those things.
• 15:24
  Nisse Noble: However, in talking to some of my siblings, they did have some experiences with you know, controlling and which was new to me, right?
• 15:34
  Nisse Noble: Every kid has a different relationship, a different parent, even if it's the same parent.
• 15:39
  unknown: Right.
• 15:40
  Nisse Noble: Um, and so I think in in certain stages she was bipolar, which I had learned uh as an adult, that did manifest as that for some of my siblings, but it wasn't something that I experienced with her.
• 15:55
  Polly Mertens: You didn't, yeah.
• 15:56
  Polly Mertens: I I would vote for and I still have it today, like the guild trip thing, like, oh you do this for me if you like cared about me, or oh, just this one time, or why aren't you, you know, like so I have I my mom never did that.
• 16:09
  Nisse Noble: It was never that, which I think was um a unique thing.
• 16:15
  Nisse Noble: You know, I think that's a that it's to some degree is like a common thing, right?
• 16:18
  Nisse Noble: We hear about that, that moms will guilt trip you, and um especially my mom being Jewish, like apparently that's like a very you know specialized skill in a Jewish mom.
• 16:30
  Nisse Noble: And so I think it's actually pretty impressive that she didn't do that.
• 16:35
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 16:37
  Nisse Noble: At least not to me.
• 16:38
  Polly Mertens: Now, you know, your mom always seemed from the outside like you know, so kind and generous and things like that.
• 16:44
  Polly Mertens: Um for me, one of the things is like these interactions I would just feel worse after or drained, or just like like like why am I talking to this person, or like why am I spending time with this person?
• 16:55
  Polly Mertens: Did you how was your what was the degree of when you're around her how it was for you other than like all this aggressive generosity?
• 17:03
  Polly Mertens: Was there like anything else that was more like it rubbed you wrong other than that?
• 17:08
  Nisse Noble: Oh, a hundred percent.
• 17:09
  Nisse Noble: I mean, my mom growing up, I was terrified of her.
• 17:13
  Nisse Noble: She was um she was terrifying, she would have these insane mood swings, she would scream and throw things, she was emotionally volatile, she was um she could be emotionally abusive in that state.
• 17:30
  Nisse Noble: So you kind of just learn to like stay away from my mom.
• 17:35
  Nisse Noble: And she her those moods of hers would control the entire the entire family, the entire household, the entire everything.
• 17:45
  Nisse Noble: And the interesting thing was that some of those dynamics started to change as she got older in the last you know, five or six years of her life, I guess eight years or so, while I was caring for her.
• 18:03
  Nisse Noble: And it was weird.
• 18:07
  Nisse Noble: Because I remember I I remember telling my therapist, I think when I was, I don't know, in my early twenties, like, I just wish that she was evil so that I could completely hate her.
• 18:20
  Nisse Noble: Right.
• 18:21
  Nisse Noble: Because she would she had this amazing side of her that was so pure and good hearted and generous and and then she also had this horrible side, and it was this Dr.
• 18:37
  Nisse Noble: Jekyll and Mr.
• 18:38
  Nisse Noble: Hyde thing um that can be really traumatic because you start to question, was it really that bad?
• 18:48
  Nisse Noble: Did I really like did she do that?
• 18:50
  Nisse Noble: Maybe, maybe she isn't that bad, maybe she and you start to feel crazy.
• 18:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 18:58
  Polly Mertens: You question yourself.
• 18:59
  Polly Mertens: And I guess I'm so glad you're bringing this up.
• 19:01
  Polly Mertens: I had forgotten just until you started telling me stories about your childhood in this, like my mom, I used to call her screaming fisherwoman.
• 19:08
  Polly Mertens: I don't know what that or my dad called her that.
• 19:10
  Polly Mertens: I forget, maybe he said that.
• 19:12
  Polly Mertens: And it was like the yelling in my household, like I just sort of blank it out.
• 19:16
  Polly Mertens: Like I remember at one point saying, What was my childhood?
• 19:20
  Polly Mertens: It was fighting, not me necessarily, but my parents, right?
• 19:23
  Polly Mertens: And just the yelling that would go on.
• 19:26
  Polly Mertens: And and that was largely my mom.
• 19:28
  Polly Mertens: I totally now that you say that, and it's like, oh, it feels like so distant because I don't see her that way anymore.
• 19:33
  Polly Mertens: You know, she just doesn't have a sparring partner, if you will.
• 19:36
  Polly Mertens: But yeah, and I love that you're saying that.
• 19:39
  Polly Mertens: Like this is part of that, like uncovering something that um I you know, we talk about like shining a light on it.
• 19:45
  Polly Mertens: Like I feel guilt for like, why don't I want to be around her?
• 19:49
  Polly Mertens: And then I just start processing and we're really trying to distinguish, you know, it's like women who have childbirth, they have other kids because they forget how painful it was, you know, like if they lose track of like that was really freaking painful, you know, don't put yourself in that situation again.
• 20:02
  Polly Mertens: But like you said, we sort of distance it from because we get enough nice interactions, right?
• 20:07
  Nisse Noble: But because she feels unsafe.
• 20:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 20:11
  Nisse Noble: Right?
• 20:11
  Nisse Noble: How can you trust someone that is that unpredictable, is that violent?
• 20:18
  Nisse Noble: Even if it doesn't you know, my mom never hit me.
• 20:22
  Nisse Noble: But the pain is still there.
• 20:27
  Nisse Noble: And I think one of the ways that I was able to find peace with it was to recognize that multiple things can be true at once.
• 20:40
  Nisse Noble: She can be multiple people, and one doesn't necessarily negate the other, and that people do change over their lifetime.
• 20:51
  Nisse Noble: But doesn't mean that what happened in the past didn't happen or that I don't have a right to feel the way that I do, but maybe I can make space for multiple truths.
• 21:03
  Polly Mertens: Absolutely, absolutely.
• 21:04
  Polly Mertens: And and and stop kind of pointing the finger at us, like, is there something wrong?
• 21:08
  Polly Mertens: Like, am I missing something here?
• 21:10
  Polly Mertens: You know, like why, you know, instead of going, ah, like one of the things that we'll move to at the end of this is like, what do you do now?
• 21:17
  Polly Mertens: And it's like be honest with yourself.
• 21:18
  Polly Mertens: And I think that's where you saying, like, oh, this is the way she is, right?
• 21:22
  Polly Mertens: And that's the way she was, and you know, and not either pretending or shrinking the painful moments, you know.
• 21:31
  Polly Mertens: You know, and I I look at it like I was thinking of I was like, I don't know, trying to quantify it.
• 21:35
  Polly Mertens: I'm like 80% of the time I don't like the person she is, and 20%, and it's like, you know, and that's just how it is right now, you know.
• 21:43
  Polly Mertens: And it's like, do you want to spend time with somebody that 20% of the time you get a good parent, and then 20 the other 80% of the time you just yuck, you know?
• 21:52
  Polly Mertens: Varying levels of pain come from that.
• 21:55
  Polly Mertens: So I love what you said about the safety, you know, it's they're not safe to be around because you don't know who you're dealing with, right?
• 22:00
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 22:02
  Nisse Noble: So there is another there's another element there for me where I realized that a lot of the things that I found triggering about my mom were also the things that I didn't like about myself.
• 22:19
  Polly Mertens: Some more.
• 22:20
  Nisse Noble: So there was this realization of like, hmm, okay, maybe if I can find some love and appreciation for those parts of me that I find less desirable, maybe I can extend that to her as well.
• 22:37
  Nisse Noble: And and that did help a lot.
• 22:40
  Nisse Noble: Like by me accepting those parts of myself and allowing her to be the way that she's gonna be, I I think that was a big part of a shift for her.
• 22:53
  Nisse Noble: I don't I don't know that my mom ever had somebody do that for her.
• 22:59
  Polly Mertens: And so how did that how did that look?
• 23:01
  Polly Mertens: So you said you were loving a side of yourself that you maybe had negated or you know not wanted to love on.
• 23:10
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 23:10
  Polly Mertens: And how did that show up with her?
• 23:13
  Nisse Noble: Say that again?
• 23:14
  Polly Mertens: Well, I think what I realized is that you know did you have angry sides of yourself maybe that you kind of like not really like her.
• 23:25
  Nisse Noble: I mean I think I think it was less about the scary sides of her, right?
• 23:36
  Nisse Noble: Which I recognized was illness.
• 23:41
  Nisse Noble: I mean sometimes we carry things, and that was one of the things that she carried.
• 23:49
  Nisse Noble: And part of it was, you know, one of the things that her and I have in common is a very tender heart and an idea, you know, a a desire to to overdo and to um to care a little bit too much, and and it's it's a vulnerability.
• 24:18
  Nisse Noble: So that was one thing.
• 24:20
  Nisse Noble: Um that was a scary side of me, but I I don't think that that was the thing that I'm trying to remember like the the crux of it.
• 24:29
  Nisse Noble: Um I guess overarchingly it might be it would be like little things where I think she embodied a sense of authenticity and self-confidence that I didn't allow myself.
• 24:49
  Nisse Noble: That you know, she could take up space in the world and she could be her full and complete self.
• 24:57
  Nisse Noble: And even if that upset and hurt or bothered everybody around her.
• 25:04
  Nisse Noble: And that made me angry, and I think it was because I wanted that and I didn't feel like I was allowed I wasn't allowing myself to do it.
• 25:15
  Nisse Noble: And so that's just one example, but there were a lot of little things like that that I said, you know, I'm over here wishing that she would be somebody that she's not.
• 25:27
  Nisse Noble: And at the same time I'm wishing that she would appreciate me for who I am.
• 25:39
  Nisse Noble: So I was like, you know what, maybe that's that's maybe that's unfair.
• 25:47
  Nisse Noble: If I want her to accept me the way that I am, and the world to accept me the way that I am, in fact, it was really more about that because uh my mom's opinion of me, uh, you know, in that sense, like I always I've always known that my mom loves me.
• 26:04
  Nisse Noble: It's never been in question.
• 26:06
  Nisse Noble: Her love has not always been enough.
• 26:08
  Nisse Noble: But I've always known that she loved me and wanted me to be me.
• 26:12
  Nisse Noble: Um, but I if I'm wanting the world to accept me the way I I am, then I need to accept my mom the way that she is.
• 26:21
  Polly Mertens: And I'm hearing another way of r saying it too, is like I you accepting you the way you are.
• 26:25
  Polly Mertens: Right.
• 26:26
  Polly Mertens: Like and and allowing yourself like like she you know, she's showing you how to just show up in a room and just be fully yourself, and you're not allowing yourself, and you're like, wow, maybe I can allow myself to fully show up in a room too.
• 26:37
  Polly Mertens: So yeah.
• 26:39
  Nisse Noble: And by doing that, I I I think that that shifted the way that I showed up with her.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: So good, so good.
• 26:49
  Nisse Noble: Now I feel in a lot of ways that I got lucky and that my mom shifted, right?
• 26:55
  Nisse Noble: I mean, I a lot of people, my mom had dementia, she had Alzheimer's, and a lot of folks that go through that experience personality changes.
• 27:05
  Nisse Noble: Um in my mom's case, truly, I think she and I got really lucky because the shift for her resulted in her becoming more childlike and more sweet.
• 27:22
  Polly Mertens: I was gonna say like a softening.
• 27:24
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 27:24
  Nisse Noble: A gentle, a gentle side of her.
• 27:26
  Nisse Noble: She was less reactive, she was more loving, um, which is not the case for a lot of people.
• 27:33
  Polly Mertens: Absolutely.
• 27:33
  Polly Mertens: No.
• 27:34
  Nisse Noble: Um a lot of people have the have the opposite.
• 27:37
  Nisse Noble: No, to that doesn't mean that she was great all the time.
• 27:40
  Nisse Noble: I'm like, I am that doesn't mean that she didn't freak out or that she was wasn't very difficult at times.
• 27:48
  Nisse Noble: Um and she sundown for sure, but the incidence of her, you know, screaming and throwing things was very minimal.
• 28:00
  Nisse Noble: Um and even she noticed it, right?
• 28:03
  Nisse Noble: She was even noticing it.
• 28:05
  Nisse Noble: She was less reactive.
• 28:06
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 28:06
  Nisse Noble: And, you know, I think that they say that a lot of times because of the dementia, that the normal pathways in the brain get kind of clogged.
• 28:16
  Nisse Noble: So you take these new pathways.
• 28:18
  Nisse Noble: I really feel like I got to see the part of my mom that was who she really is, underneath all of the the sickness and that like who she really was at her soul.
• 28:34
  Nisse Noble: That's that's what I feel.
• 28:35
  Nisse Noble: And I feel extremely lucky for that.
• 28:38
  Nisse Noble: And I want to very much put a big asterisk on that because I don't think that that's gonna be a lot of people's experiences.
• 28:46
  unknown: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:47
  Nisse Noble: Like you can do all the work you want on yourself, but that does not mean that your mom goes and do a damn thing.
• 28:53
  Nisse Noble: Totally.
• 28:54
  Nisse Noble: Okay, so this is my experience, but I do not want to create some kind of a fantasy for anyone that is that their mom is gonna change, because she probably will not.
• 29:09
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 29:10
  Polly Mertens: For sure.
• 29:10
  Polly Mertens: And and you never know.
• 29:12
  Polly Mertens: Like, who knows, right?
• 29:13
  Polly Mertens: Like, I'm so grateful, both my parents to their older, my mom is still alive, and that's one thing we're gonna talk about here briefly, is like, um, you know, I'm still navigating the relationship.
• 29:22
  Polly Mertens: Your mom passed away almost a year ago, and it's like you, you know, navigate it, and one of the things I want people to understand is like, I want to get to like some of the beautiful ways that you have been helping me continue to navigate this relationship that, you know, I'm 54 years old, and it's like I'm still growing up with this dynamic.
• 29:41
  Polly Mertens: And I I forget what I said before we aired.
• 29:43
  Polly Mertens: It was like I'm learning how to, you know, parent myself and take care of myself.
• 29:48
  Polly Mertens: And at this age, like, wow, it's still happening, you know.
• 29:51
  Polly Mertens: But I think I was wrapped in an old story and paradigm.
• 29:55
  Polly Mertens: And one of the things I just want to throw in before we move on, um, and it doesn't sound like you had it, but I definitely in the dynamic, because I just want to speak this so that you know, anybody else that is having this in their relationship, like, yeah, that happened is um guilt conditioning, right?
• 30:10
  Polly Mertens: And so it's like this condition guilt that it seems it's like uh a little bit of that passive aggressive, you know, like you know, when you start to recognize it, you're like, oh, that person's being passive aggressive, right?
• 30:21
  Polly Mertens: Like now I recognize when I'm being guilt conditioned by my mom, you know, like you should and this, and then like what shows up is that like wanting to be a good daughter, like wanting to be a good daughter, and like not what will people think, but like I'm a good person, you know, and like I want to treat people well and respectful and care about people.
• 30:39
  Polly Mertens: I don't want to like the amount of times I've gotten pissed off or angry or frustrated or resentful or whatever at my mom, and I'm like, I'm not this person.
• 30:48
  Polly Mertens: I'm like, you know, whatever.
• 30:49
  Polly Mertens: I'm more involved in this.
• 30:50
  Polly Mertens: Like I care for people.
• 30:52
  Polly Mertens: Like, why does this human bring this out side in me out, right?
• 30:56
  Polly Mertens: And it's like some of these dynamics look like guilt.
• 30:59
  Polly Mertens: But let's go to how do we adapt?
• 31:01
  Polly Mertens: Like, like what did, you know, like one thing is like you said, when we were little, you know, mine was like I can remember doing my own laundry.
• 31:08
  Polly Mertens: I mean, I rode like for an hour on city buses when I was like 12 to get to school across town, like huge, like undertake, like parents would never let their kids do today, right?
• 31:19
  Polly Mertens: Because we we adapted early.
• 31:21
  Polly Mertens: So, like, what are you know, I mean, a large one that people would say, oh, people pleasing, right?
• 31:25
  Polly Mertens: Like, oh, you know, because you've got this emotionally unstable person, bipolar.
• 31:30
  Polly Mertens: I would have said that with my mom, depression, bipolar, out throw in some alcoholism, you know, oh, how no, you know, um, like you've got this unstable uncertainty on your hands.
• 31:42
  Polly Mertens: You know, I don't know about you, like you never know who you're coming home to, or I never knew who like talking to, right?
• 31:47
  Polly Mertens: So, how did how what are some of the things that you recognize that you adapted, like people pleasing, or what else did you see?
• 31:54
  Nisse Noble: Mm-hmm.
• 31:55
  Nisse Noble: I'm gonna write that down, but I'm gonna go back to something you said because I think it was it was really powerful.
• 32:01
  Nisse Noble: Um adapting.
• 32:03
  Nisse Noble: So I heard you say that my mom would make me really angry and that I'm not that person.
• 32:13
  Polly Mertens: Oh, but I would I would that's my old story.
• 32:15
  Polly Mertens: That's the old story, right?
• 32:16
  Polly Mertens: Like I would get upset because my mom was whatever she was doing, right?
• 32:21
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 32:22
  Polly Mertens: So like I need to take responsibility for she wouldn't make me.
• 32:25
  Polly Mertens: But like I would I would be enraged.
• 32:28
  Polly Mertens: I would be, I would flip into this other person that I didn't want to be because of like who I was who I was with, who I was sparring with.
• 32:36
  Polly Mertens: Um, I didn't couldn't just love on her, you know, just like for various reasons.
• 32:41
  Nisse Noble: I just want to touch on that a little bit because I think that's what I was saying before when I was like, hey, there are these aspects of myself that I didn't love.
• 32:49
  Nisse Noble: And that's an example.
• 32:52
  Nisse Noble: You know, anger is not a emotion that I connect with very often, that I associate myself with very often, but it's a part of me.
• 33:04
  Nisse Noble: It's there.
• 33:05
  Nisse Noble: And if I tell myself that's not me, and I don't love that part of myself, because it's coming up to protect.
• 33:16
  Nisse Noble: That angry part of Polly is coming up to protect little baby Polly that didn't have someone to do that for her, that is angry that she had to take the bus on her own, that wants to protect you.
• 33:29
  Nisse Noble: And that is a powerful part of you.
• 33:31
  Nisse Noble: It's not a part to say, oh, that's not me, and I don't I don't believe or love that that's who I am.
• 33:38
  Nisse Noble: It's a it's an incredibly strong part of you that adapted in a way that you're like, okay, maybe I don't need to react in that way anymore.
• 33:46
  Polly Mertens: What I'm hearing, what you're saying, is like, um, I probably if I pulled it back a couple of layers, is I'm actually angry at myself for being um like steamrolled or guilt tripped or whatever.
• 33:59
  Polly Mertens: It's like stand up for yourself is is sort of what I'm hearing.
• 34:01
  Polly Mertens: Is like I wouldn't put in boundaries or I wouldn't say no, or I would say yes when I meant no and things like that.
• 34:06
  Polly Mertens: And I was more angry at myself, too.
• 34:09
  Polly Mertens: You know, it's like, wait a minute, you know, like I'm angry because you're not doing this or whatever, but really it's probably like I'm not standing up for myself, too.
• 34:19
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, there's definitely some of that.
• 34:21
  Nisse Noble: I um I think for me it was finding that unconditional love for myself no matter how I reacted.
• 34:31
  Nisse Noble: It's okay.
• 34:33
  Nisse Noble: It's okay if I get defensive, it's okay if I was mean to my mom.
• 34:37
  Nisse Noble: She came over, she dropped something off.
• 34:39
  Nisse Noble: I wasn't I was a bitch to her, okay?
• 34:41
  Nisse Noble: It's okay.
• 34:41
  Nisse Noble: I'm allowed to do that sometimes.
• 34:44
  Nisse Noble: I am allowed to respond in a way that I needed to in the moment, and I'm gonna trust that my body knows what it's doing.
• 34:54
  Nisse Noble: And I can still love myself.
• 34:56
  Nisse Noble: I can say, hey, I'd you know, may hey, maybe next time we try something different.
• 35:02
  Nisse Noble: But if I can still say, you know what, girl, you did your best and I love you and it's okay, that shift w made me able to show up so much differently in all of my relationships, but really for myself.
• 35:19
  Nisse Noble: Because it I for sure, the guilt wasn't the same as your mom's, in that my mom didn't tell me, oh, why, you know, you're making me feel so bad.
• 35:30
  Nisse Noble: Right, why didn't you call me?
• 35:32
  Nisse Noble: No, but I would feel terrible because she would want to come over and drop something off in the middle of you know, I'm doing something.
• 35:40
  Nisse Noble: She doesn't ask, she doesn't she doesn't she's giving me shit that I don't want that I now have to figure out what to do with.
• 35:48
  Nisse Noble: I feel guilty that I'm gonna throw it away.
• 35:49
  Nisse Noble: I feel guilty about being mean to her because she's trying to be nice to me, right?
• 35:55
  Nisse Noble: Um and I just thought, you know, maybe it's okay if I feel all those things.
• 36:01
  Nisse Noble: Like that's alright.
• 36:03
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:04
  Nisse Noble: And maybe I need to give myself a little slack, like, because clearly I'm, you know, like and there's a lot of shit there.
• 36:12
  Nisse Noble: We gotta just let it happen.
• 36:13
  Nisse Noble: We gotta let we gotta let it come out.
• 36:16
  Nisse Noble: Um, and what are some small ways that I can it's not about adapting, but it for me it was more about what are some small ways that I can show up better for myself with my mom.
• 36:40
  Nisse Noble: Right?
• 36:40
  Nisse Noble: So what are what is a small thing?
• 36:42
  Nisse Noble: Doesn't it see a big thing?
• 36:43
  Nisse Noble: I don't have to create some big boundary and some new way of li like we always want to try to create like some I would find myself trying to come up with these complex systems, like okay, well if I schedule in an hour of mom time and I like really and it's like life doesn't do that.
• 36:58
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, it's not that especially not when you have a complex mom.
• 37:02
  Nisse Noble: She is not gonna slot into your schedule.
• 37:04
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, that ain't gonna happen.
• 37:07
  Polly Mertens: Well that was some of what you were doing towards the end.
• 37:09
  Polly Mertens: So let's hit low.
• 37:10
  Polly Mertens: So let's hit upon like how d how did you towards maybe towards the end, we'll just call it because you know we were learning for many years, but you were getting it.
• 37:19
  Polly Mertens: Like you were, you know, having boundaries, you were managing your well-being, you were taking care of yourself, you were giving yourself more respect and like you said, and honoring how you were feeling and stuff like that.
• 37:32
  Polly Mertens: What what were some of the things that you started to do differently that you know you've learned through all of this?
• 37:37
  Polly Mertens: Like what what are some of the things that worked?
• 37:41
  Nisse Noble: Um I decided that I was like I'm just gonna I'm gonna work with her.
• 37:47
  Nisse Noble: How can I make this work for me?
• 37:51
  Nisse Noble: She's gonna do what she's gonna do.
• 37:53
  Nisse Noble: How can I make that work for me?
• 37:59
  Nisse Noble: Not like how can I adapt to make her happy, but how can I channel whatever it is that she wants to do or however she wants to show up or whatever she wants to do in her life?
• 38:09
  Nisse Noble: How can I align with that?
• 38:12
  Nisse Noble: Now that's not always possible, right?
• 38:15
  Nisse Noble: Your caregiving for her, I had to take her to her doctor's appointments, I had to do all of those things, but even still, the doctor calls and is like, oh, your mom's got an infection on her toe, she needs to come in and see this podiatrist and a specialist, and you gotta do this and that and the other thing.
• 38:29
  Nisse Noble: And you know, we can and I we can get her in tomorrow at this time, or it's gonna be a month from now.
• 38:36
  Nisse Noble: And tomorrow at this time, right?
• 38:38
  Nisse Noble: This is just tomorrow at this time, I have a very important meeting and I'm already drained.
• 38:44
  Nisse Noble: I'm gonna go, you know what?
• 38:45
  Nisse Noble: We're gonna go a month from now.
• 38:47
  Nisse Noble: Because mom's infected toe, even though I feel bad, guess what?
• 38:51
  Nisse Noble: It's probably been infected for months.
• 38:53
  Nisse Noble: She's gonna be okay, right?
• 38:56
  Nisse Noble: And that's that was the difference of going, like, okay, how I have to care for myself first.
• 39:02
  Nisse Noble: So what where is it gonna give?
• 39:07
  Nisse Noble: And the give would be mom's getting her toe looked out in a month.
• 39:12
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, you know, or it would be mom wanted to, mom always wanted to go to the store every day and get me something.
• 39:18
  Nisse Noble: Like, okay, well, I would pick a specific thing, and this was the thing that I wanted.
• 39:23
  Nisse Noble: And I would be very clear though, because mom if I said to get X, she could get anything like adjacent to X, right?
• 39:33
  Nisse Noble: It wasn't like it wasn't always gonna get exactly X, right?
• 39:37
  Nisse Noble: If I said I wanted peanut butter, I might get cashew butter.
• 39:42
  Nisse Noble: I might get like I might get something that's in the realm, but it's not even close.
• 39:47
  Nisse Noble: Might be on the shelf or if that's gonna piss you off, and you know that she's gonna get you don't pretend that she's gonna know, oh, I need to tell her again that it's exactly this peanut butter.
• 39:59
  Nisse Noble: Don't do that.
• 40:00
  Nisse Noble: Don't set yourself up for failure.
• 40:03
  Nisse Noble: Know that that she's gonna extend to whatever space she's gonna extend to and go, like, how could I make that work for me?
• 40:11
  Nisse Noble: How could it be a surprise if I'm like, is there an item that this is just one example, but I think it's a good one because you know it hits diet and all of these different things.
• 40:20
  Nisse Noble: Because it would piss you off to get something that you're like, I clearly don't eat that.
• 40:24
  Nisse Noble: My mom should know that I don't, right?
• 40:27
  Nisse Noble: Whatever.
• 40:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 40:28
  Nisse Noble: Or however it's gonna trigger you, but I would say, okay, what is a thing or a category of things that if she got me anything even in the realm, I would be like, this is a fun surprise and it would be cool.
• 40:40
  Nisse Noble: So I would pick that thing.
• 40:44
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, okay.
• 40:45
  Nisse Noble: And that's the example of going like, all right, this is going to happen anyway.
• 40:50
  Nisse Noble: You are not going to tame the tornado.
• 40:53
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, and I love it's like shifting something in you that you know, um, it's not expecting that person to change and then you feel better.
• 41:01
  Polly Mertens: It's like, I want to feel better, so I'm going to shift something.
• 41:06
  Polly Mertens: I'm going to shift how like shift how I approach this, shift, you know, like, nope, we're not going to do it now, you know, make it work with for you, like take care of your needs as well, like both, both and, right?
• 41:17
  Nisse Noble: And I want to preface that with I made a decision that I wanted to care for my mom.
• 41:22
  Nisse Noble: I wanted to have a relationship with her.
• 41:24
  Nisse Noble: I made that conscious choice.
• 41:26
  Nisse Noble: I, you know, sometimes we're in between a rock and a hard place, and both options sucked, right?
• 41:34
  Nisse Noble: It was like either I have to reprioritize my life so I can prioritize mom, or I get to live with the guilt of not doing that.
• 41:43
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 41:44
  Nisse Noble: So I right, like sometimes our options suck.
• 41:47
  Nisse Noble: But I think I made the conscious choice to go, okay, I'm making this choice.
• 41:52
  Nisse Noble: And that really did help me to go, you know what?
• 41:54
  Nisse Noble: Like, I I chose this.
• 41:56
  Nisse Noble: This is something that I wanted.
• 41:59
  Nisse Noble: My my siblings didn't choose to do it, and I understand why.
• 42:02
  Nisse Noble: My like I said, my mom was pretty horrible to us growing up.
• 42:05
  Nisse Noble: So we, you know, had all the reason to maybe not show up for her because she didn't necessarily show up for us the way that we wanted.
• 42:16
  Nisse Noble: She tried.
• 42:16
  Nisse Noble: Don't get me wrong.
• 42:17
  Nisse Noble: It wasn't like there was lack of effort, but um knowing that I wanted to do that, knowing that I wanted to have her in my life, I tried to find ways that would make it positive for me.
• 42:34
  Nisse Noble: I love it, I love it.
• 42:36
  Nisse Noble: Not for her, really.
• 42:37
  Nisse Noble: I mean it so happened that it worked that way, but I think so many of us think like, oh, okay, well then I'm just gonna tell mom to be this way so that it works for me.
• 42:50
  Nisse Noble: And that's not mom is gonna be mom.
• 42:55
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:56
  Polly Mertens: And and I love it.
• 42:57
  Polly Mertens: You're just like, I started working with who she is, and like that's she's just gonna be that way, and stop like thinking that you know, no, and that's the same thing.
• 43:04
  Polly Mertens: That's no control.
• 43:05
  Polly Mertens: Intimate relationships as well.
• 43:07
  Polly Mertens: It's like, okay, if you want that intimate partner, it was like, oh, if he would just stand on his head a little bit more and do these other things and whatever.
• 43:13
  Nisse Noble: It's like yeah, I feel like, or if I bend over backwards and I contort myself, and you're like, don't no.
• 43:19
  Nisse Noble: No.
• 43:20
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:21
  Polly Mertens: Don't do that.
• 43:22
  Polly Mertens: All right.
• 43:23
  Polly Mertens: So, you know, what else towards the end were you doing that like gave you peace?
• 43:30
  Polly Mertens: Or um, you know, or because I know you were, you know, health was, you know, she's struggling, she's got health challenges, you've discovered some health challenges along that same path.
• 43:40
  Polly Mertens: You guys were kind of in a parallel, you're nurture nourishing your own health.
• 43:45
  Polly Mertens: How did you keep your nervous system okay?
• 43:47
  Polly Mertens: Or take, you know, one of them's like, Yep, we're not doing it now because you like some little boundaries, it sounds like were there.
• 43:52
  Polly Mertens: Uh I I think at one point I asked you, and it was like I remember you saying some of the advice, one of the pieces of advice you gave me was like you don't have to answer her messages right away.
• 44:02
  Polly Mertens: Or whenever whenever you want.
• 44:04
  Polly Mertens: Like that was like freaking breathtaking for me.
• 44:07
  Polly Mertens: I was like, okay.
• 44:08
  Nisse Noble: Oh, that's huge.
• 44:09
  Nisse Noble: It is a huge thing.
• 44:11
  Nisse Noble: So as somebody that grew up, so you talked about how did we adapt growing up with moms like this?
• 44:18
  Nisse Noble: So So I think a lot of the ways that we adapt when we're kids, at least is a common way.
• 44:23
  Nisse Noble: A lot of people have different, everybody is different.
• 44:27
  Nisse Noble: But we become hyper-vigilant, anxious.
• 44:31
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:32
  Nisse Noble: We are always on alert.
• 44:34
  Nisse Noble: Something bad is going to happen.
• 44:36
  Nisse Noble: And some of the coping mechanisms with that is to like when problem arises, solve it right away.
• 44:42
  Nisse Noble: Because the the unknown is so scary and painful.
• 44:46
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 44:47
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 44:47
  Nisse Noble: And what that can manifest into is people pleasing and or just being very responsible and available.
• 44:58
  Nisse Noble: Because it feels safer.
• 45:00
  Nisse Noble: Because we're in control.
• 45:01
  Nisse Noble: We'd like the control.
• 45:02
  Nisse Noble: So at least this is for me.
• 45:04
  Nisse Noble: And so with my mom, if she would text me or call me, the implication was it felt safer to just respond to it in the moment.
• 45:15
  Nisse Noble: Because then I'm taking care of it.
• 45:17
  Nisse Noble: I'm making it, fixing it.
• 45:19
  Nisse Noble: I'm, you know, I know what it is.
• 45:20
  Nisse Noble: I've got it under control.
• 45:21
  Nisse Noble: What I realized though is that I was doing two things.
• 45:25
  Nisse Noble: One, I was teaching her that I was always available to to solve any any problem.
• 45:33
  Nisse Noble: And I also was um not letting her figure it out on her own.
• 45:43
  Nisse Noble: So I think that this is good advice in it really in any scenario at work, in any people that we work with, is to just give a little space.
• 45:54
  Nisse Noble: Have a little pause.
• 45:56
  Nisse Noble: If mom would text or call me, I would wait.
• 46:00
  Nisse Noble: She leaves a voicemail, I'd listen to it.
• 46:05
  Nisse Noble: Nine times out of ten, it would be some, oh my god, the world is ending, and my computer won't turn on, and oh my god, and the the F bombs would be flying, she'd be freaking out, she'd be like, You need to call me back right now.
• 46:17
  Nisse Noble: I can't, and it's just okay.
• 46:20
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 46:20
  Polly Mertens: I was I wasn't.
• 46:21
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 46:23
  Nisse Noble: Oh, I have the voicemails.
• 46:24
  Nisse Noble: I can play the I saved them.
• 46:26
  Nisse Noble: I can play them for you.
• 46:26
  Nisse Noble: They are like, what the fuck with this fucking thing?
• 46:30
  Nisse Noble: And okay, all right.
• 46:32
  Nisse Noble: So you just let it happen.
• 46:34
  Nisse Noble: You wait at least an hour.
• 46:36
  Nisse Noble: Okay.
• 46:38
  Nisse Noble: Then reach back out.
• 46:41
  Nisse Noble: Whether whether you want to reach out by text or however available you want to be.
• 46:45
  Nisse Noble: But my thing would be like, I'd wait a little bit.
• 46:47
  Nisse Noble: Nine times out of ten, she'd be like, oh, it's fine.
• 46:51
  Nisse Noble: Right?
• 46:53
  Nisse Noble: Or she would find somebody else.
• 46:56
  Nisse Noble: That's why I moved her into senior living where she had people that were there.
• 47:00
  Nisse Noble: That's why I moved her so that she could have and she would have those people that would support her, right?
• 47:06
  Nisse Noble: Brilliant.
• 47:06
  Nisse Noble: Deal with her problems.
• 47:08
  Polly Mertens: Brilliant.
• 47:08
  Nisse Noble: What they get paid to do.
• 47:10
  Nisse Noble: Let the people, let the professionals do their jobs.
• 47:13
  Polly Mertens: The catastrophizing that I get, and I'm just like, it's not that big a deal, you know, like you know, and and like you said, and like and it and I don't know about you, but it feels like and it's very, you know, it's that emotional immaturity.
• 47:26
  Polly Mertens: It's just like a child.
• 47:26
  Polly Mertens: Like if a child, you know, doesn't get its way or doesn't want to put its shoes on to go to school, like, you know, and it's like, yeah, that's what we're that's what we're witnessing in a 70, 80-year-old woman instead of a three or four-year-old little girl.
• 47:42
  Polly Mertens: It's like it's just the same person, just older, and it's hard to go.
• 47:47
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, it's emotional dysregulation.
• 47:49
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, you know, I think what we're witnessing in those moments is we're witnessing, we are witnessing their inner child, but never regulated.
• 47:56
  Nisse Noble: So we have to remember, imagine that that's the person that's trying to care for a child, that was trying to care for us.
• 48:07
  Nisse Noble: And if they can't, if they can't regulate for themselves, if they can't show up for themselves, how are they supposed to do that for us?
• 48:15
  Nisse Noble: And I I think that that was a huge aha for me was recognizing that my mom really did her best.
• 48:22
  Nisse Noble: That was the best that she could do, like truly and genuinely, that was the best that she could show up for me and for my siblings and for everyone around her.
• 48:33
  Nisse Noble: And so when I would see those outbursts, I would over time it shifted to empathy because I was like, wow, that's gotta be really hard to live like that.
• 48:45
  Nisse Noble: You know, I don't think she people choose that.
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: Right, right.
• 48:50
  Nisse Noble: I don't think uh maybe some people do, but in in my case, I don't think so.
• 48:55
  Nisse Noble: No, that doesn't mean that we're not sad or that we didn't wish that they could have been somebody else.
• 49:03
  unknown: Yeah.
• 49:03
  Nisse Noble: There's a lot of grief there.
• 49:05
  Polly Mertens: Dude, that and there's a whole another episode that on like unpacking like the expectations, both of them and of us, you know, like like you were pointing out for me, like my expectations of being this like infallible person who never gets angry or something like that.
• 49:19
  Nisse Noble: Right.
• 49:19
  Polly Mertens: It's like, no.
• 49:20
  Polly Mertens: Like, it's okay to get angry, you know, and but you know, I I label it as like this is somebody I'm supposed to care about.
• 49:29
  Polly Mertens: Why am I so angry at this person?
• 49:31
  Polly Mertens: You know.
• 49:32
  Polly Mertens: Um just recognizing like, okay, that's what happened, right?
• 49:36
  Polly Mertens: And yeah, um, were there were there places where you had trouble instilling boundaries with her?
• 49:42
  Polly Mertens: You know, and maybe give me an example, like what was one like that sounds like a little silent one, like you just wouldn't you didn't tell her, like, oh hey mom, when you have these freak out moments, I'm just not gonna call you for an hour back, right?
• 49:53
  Polly Mertens: But you would Oh, right, right, right.
• 49:55
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, did I try so there were a few things.
• 49:57
  Nisse Noble: I mean, like I said, as she got a bit older, um, and maybe the dementia was taking place, like she was a lot easier to work with.
• 50:10
  Nisse Noble: Um, what were some boundaries that I put into place?
• 50:13
  Nisse Noble: Um well, one thing, so this there was a turning point and with her and she would have these tantrums, right?
• 50:24
  Nisse Noble: She would go nonlinear, as she would say.
• 50:28
  Nisse Noble: That was her phrase.
• 50:30
  Nisse Noble: And uh and typically what I would do is I would just uh flee.
• 50:39
  Nisse Noble: Right?
• 50:40
  Nisse Noble: So we've got like fight or flight, I would flee, I would like, okay, let's just gonna let her do her thing, I'm gonna give her her space.
• 50:47
  Nisse Noble: And at one point I thought, you know, and this is the that's the only two interactions I ever saw with when my mom would have these episodes my entire life.
• 50:57
  Nisse Noble: It was either flee, which is what my dad would do, or fight, which is what my siblings would do with her.
• 51:05
  Nisse Noble: But there's an another option.
• 51:08
  Nisse Noble: And I was like, hmm, okay, let's try something different.
• 51:12
  Nisse Noble: Like and one of the things that she would do would be in one of Sorry, it's loud downstairs.
• 51:19
  Nisse Noble: She'd be one of these episodes, is that she would uh yell at herself and she would say how stupid she is and she was so mad at herself, right?
• 51:28
  Nisse Noble: Because it would clearly it came from a place of not liking herself and she wasn't happy about it.
• 51:35
  Nisse Noble: So at one point when she was doing that, I said I I made her look me like I put my face in front of her face and I said, You're not allowed to call yourself stupid in front of me.
• 51:49
  Nisse Noble: Because I said, if you're stupid, then I'm half stupid.
• 51:54
  Nisse Noble: Um, I said, Mom, stop calling yourself stupid.
• 52:02
  Nisse Noble: You're not allowed to do that in front of me.
• 52:04
  Nisse Noble: And she like her whole world changed, like her whole demeanor changed, and I was like, You're not stupid, don't talk to yourself like that.
• 52:14
  Nisse Noble: She's never before.
• 52:17
  unknown: Yeah.
• 52:18
  Nisse Noble: I don't know that anybody had done it.
• 52:20
  Nisse Noble: And she like actually settled down.
• 52:25
  Nisse Noble: And it was this shift that I saw in her.
• 52:29
  Nisse Noble: And it was since that moment, and I continued to do it.
• 52:32
  Nisse Noble: I was like, you're not allowed to talk about yourself that way in front of me.
• 52:35
  Nisse Noble: I just wouldn't, that was a boundary that I set.
• 52:38
  Nisse Noble: I was like, you can't, I I don't want to hear you talking about yourself that way.
• 52:41
  Nisse Noble: So that was one.
• 52:42
  Nisse Noble: I mean, I would create different things.
• 52:44
  Nisse Noble: Like I she used to love to just show up out of the blue.
• 52:49
  Nisse Noble: Um, I told her that she has to set a time with me before she just shows up.
• 52:54
  Nisse Noble: Towards the end, I mean, I just let her show up whenever she wanted.
• 52:57
  Nisse Noble: It's I mean, she's just about it drifted.
• 53:00
  Nisse Noble: And that's the thing with boundaries.
• 53:02
  Nisse Noble: You can decide, you can put them up and you can take them away.
• 53:05
  Nisse Noble: And I decided to take it away because I was like, you know what, any any day could be the last day.
• 53:10
  Nisse Noble: So if she wants to show up, yeah.
• 53:13
  Nisse Noble: I'm gonna make space in my life for that.
• 53:15
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 53:15
  Nisse Noble: Um I I did.
• 53:18
  Nisse Noble: I you know, I said a a few things, but I think more than anything with her, it was me adapting, you know.
• 53:32
  Polly Mertens: Totally.
• 53:32
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 53:33
  Polly Mertens: I mean, you've got this, like you said, uh I think one of my favorite parts of what you said is like she sh not however you said it was like she was good being the the prime actor in the movie.
• 53:42
  Polly Mertens: You know, she was good playing the prime actor in her movie and largely other people's movies, sometimes the subordinate, but largely prime.
• 53:50
  Polly Mertens: And uh I oh yeah, I can relate to that a lot.
• 53:53
  Nisse Noble: Just full main character.
• 53:54
  Polly Mertens: Main character, there you go.
• 53:56
  unknown: Right.
• 53:57
  Polly Mertens: And it just goes, That's mom.
• 53:58
  Polly Mertens: Like she's just gonna be on stage when she's in the room, and like I'll take her mine out to you know, restaurants and stuff.
• 54:04
  Polly Mertens: And it's like the the main actor has just arrived.
• 54:06
  Polly Mertens: Did you guys notice?
• 54:07
  Polly Mertens: You know, like okay, yeah, whatever the set was going on and anybody else's acting movie.
• 54:13
  Polly Mertens: Nope.
• 54:13
  Polly Mertens: We just doesn't matter.
• 54:15
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 54:15
  Nisse Noble: She is Celine Dion, and that that you know what, like Celine is in the building, and that we gotta just I I mean, I think that it's we wouldn't imagine that Celine Dion would not show up that way.
• 54:32
  Nisse Noble: So why do we expect that our moms are gonna show up differently?
• 54:36
  Polly Mertens: You know what?
• 54:36
  Polly Mertens: And we we are okay with Celine, and then she has handlers and people that help her get to the front of the line and stuff, and then our moms, like my mom has literally I've seen her like cut in line, and I'm like, what are you doing?
• 54:46
  Nisse Noble: You know, you know, yeah.
• 54:48
  Nisse Noble: Oh, for sure.
• 54:49
  Nisse Noble: She just like she and but she, you know, she's she is all up in it.
• 54:54
  Nisse Noble: And yeah, the and it in some time sometimes though, when you can remove yourself from it for a second, you can recognize that you're like, this is kind of impressive.
• 55:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 55:07
  Nisse Noble: Like this woman is taking up some space.
• 55:10
  Polly Mertens: Exactly.
• 55:10
  Polly Mertens: The self-assuredness, agency, like like I'm like I, yeah, this is not the world was all around me, but I know what you're saying.
• 55:18
  Polly Mertens: I know what you're saying.
• 55:19
  Nisse Noble: Well, and it can show up in us, like when we do act out the way that they do, right?
• 55:24
  Nisse Noble: Whether it's in anger or taking up a lot of space or ruffling people's feathers around us or cutting in the proverbial line because we think that our needs matter, it can make us feel like, oh, I don't want to be like my mom.
• 55:39
  Nisse Noble: That's where that feeling when I was saying earlier of these things that I didn't like about myself that come from her.
• 55:44
  Nisse Noble: I think those are good examples.
• 55:46
  Nisse Noble: But maybe instead we go, well, those can be good things.
• 55:51
  Nisse Noble: Why is it all wrapped up in, you know, can we pick and choose?
• 55:57
  Nisse Noble: Can we create our own?
• 55:58
  Nisse Noble: Oh, it's great.
• 55:59
  Polly Mertens: It's great.
• 56:00
  Polly Mertens: Like I said, like I think this could like do have you seen those episodes where the guys talk for like three hours?
• 56:04
  Polly Mertens: I'm like, you and I could probably do this.
• 56:06
  Polly Mertens: It's probably two plus hour on this.
• 56:08
  Polly Mertens: So I'm like, oh, I think I was trying to make it like in an hour and respect your time because you're working and whatnot.
• 56:13
  Polly Mertens: But I think we need like a another doozy, another good one.
• 56:17
  Nisse Noble: Yeah.
• 56:18
  Polly Mertens: And I sit down.
• 56:19
  Polly Mertens: So let's see.
• 56:20
  Polly Mertens: So maybe so I've got this whole part on like shoulding, like I should be close to my mom, I should enjoy time.
• 56:27
  Polly Mertens: And then we just say like um we can like set ourselves free.
• 56:32
  Polly Mertens: And like the takeaway is like it's okay to feel this way, and boundaries are healthy, and so like we can just kind of wrap.
• 56:38
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, cool.
• 56:38
  Nisse Noble: Is that cool?
• 56:39
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, I think that sounds good.
• 56:41
  Polly Mertens: Okay.
• 56:41
  Polly Mertens: So I know it's like uh around a lot of this, uh, when I think of like the work of Brene Brown and shoulding on ourselves, right?
• 56:49
  Polly Mertens: And like falling into the should trap and that guilt, you know, the shame and the guilt of like, I should be close to my mom, I should enjoy spending time with her, and I should want more of a relationship, right?
• 56:58
  Polly Mertens: Like, um, what how did you reframe that?
• 57:02
  Polly Mertens: How did you evolve?
• 57:04
  Polly Mertens: Like, how did that change from like uh this guilt of like I should want to get closer, but not wanting to, or something?
• 57:09
  Polly Mertens: What were some of the things that you did or one thing that you did?
• 57:13
  Nisse Noble: Well, yeah, and I definitely can relate to that.
• 57:16
  Nisse Noble: I mean, there's so much of it.
• 57:18
  Nisse Noble: Um I think what I did that was helpful was not trying to think of it all at once and the full relationship.
• 57:30
  Nisse Noble: I think sometimes we can get so grandiose and try to, at least for me, try to come up with well, this is the answer or this is the way that I'm gonna show up that's gonna solve it all.
• 57:43
  Nisse Noble: Um, I just and it sounds cliche, but really just thinking about one day at a time and what way would feel good showing up today with my mom.
• 57:57
  Polly Mertens: It's like be in the present and do your best right now.
• 58:01
  Nisse Noble: Like just today.
• 58:03
  Nisse Noble: And maybe today that means like I can't with her.
• 58:08
  unknown: Yeah.
• 58:09
  Nisse Noble: Maybe today that means I'm mad at her and I don't want to see her, I don't want to talk to her.
• 58:14
  Nisse Noble: That's okay, let's do that.
• 58:16
  Nisse Noble: And then tomorrow we can check in again.
• 58:18
  Nisse Noble: And what I found for myself was that it it did change day to day.
• 58:25
  Nisse Noble: And some days it was.
• 58:27
  Nisse Noble: Like I very much wanted to see her and spend time with her, and then sometimes I was like, absolutely not.
• 58:33
  Polly Mertens: I love that because it's like it's okay, and what it I I know this seems like at 54 I'm saying this, but it's like it gives yourself permission to say, No, I I don't want to hang out with you, you know, like no, I don't want to see you, talk to you, solve your problem, hear about your bullshit, whatever.
• 58:47
  Polly Mertens: Like, nope, I just you know, and that reminds me of like um there's like we abandon ourselves to go be with that person, right?
• 58:54
  Polly Mertens: You know, like like, oh, their needs are are more important than ours.
• 58:58
  Polly Mertens: And it's like when I say, you know, um uh yes, I'll see you even when I don't want to, or I'll pick up the phone, like, oh, she's called six times, you know, that kind of a thing.
• 59:07
  Polly Mertens: It's like, no, like somebody else called me.
• 59:09
  Polly Mertens: I'd be like, nope, not talking to you, right?
• 59:12
  Polly Mertens: So I would abandon myself and go be like, oh, what do you need and how can I care for you and stuff.
• 59:16
  Polly Mertens: And so it's like for her.
• 59:17
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 59:18
  Nisse Noble: And especially when we do that over and over again, I think, yeah, we're we're we're a betraying our own trust.
• 59:26
  Nisse Noble: And I think the reason for me at least when I would when I would answer that call or when I would abandon myself for her, the reason why is because I felt like, well, I don't want to be that person, or I don't that's not the relationship that I want to have with her.
• 59:48
  Nisse Noble: But that's what I'm saying about just take it one day at a time.
• 59:52
  Nisse Noble: Because our relationship isn't all one thing or all it's not it's not like that, it changes.
• 59:59
  Nisse Noble: And so I think that the one day at a time helped me to maintain both.
• 1:00:05
  Nisse Noble: You know, some days you can have a really a really nice time with her, and other days you is yeah, and that one day can go on for a long time and then it can change again.
• 1:00:19
  Nisse Noble: So it it allowed for flexibility in the relationship.
• 1:00:23
  Polly Mertens: I think the last thing I'll just say and we'll wrap up is like um, you know, it's surprising how upsetting it was for me, us, or I'm I'll say speak it from my first person, is like like whatever the experience, like we'd have this interaction and it wouldn't go well.
• 1:00:37
  Polly Mertens: And that person would she'd be like not very faced for very long, right?
• 1:00:41
  Polly Mertens: You know, like we would hold on to way more for way longer than they do.
• 1:00:44
  Polly Mertens: It's like how but it's maybe that emotional immaturity is like next, you know, playtime or off to the next thing, or oh, go worry about this now, or whatever.
• 1:00:53
  Polly Mertens: So, you know what?
• 1:00:54
  Polly Mertens: Just let it go too.
• 1:00:56
  Polly Mertens: We just gotta let that shit let that shit go.
• 1:00:58
  Polly Mertens: So For sure.
• 1:00:59
  Polly Mertens: Yeah, they're not holding on to it.
• 1:01:01
  unknown: I know.
• 1:01:02
  Polly Mertens: And we're like, why do I can't I don't want to talk to you because of yesterday?
• 1:01:05
  Polly Mertens: And they're like, What?
• 1:01:06
  Polly Mertens: What happened yesterday?
• 1:01:08
  Polly Mertens: I was okay, I came to your house.
• 1:01:12
  Polly Mertens: What?
• 1:01:13
  Polly Mertens: You know?
• 1:01:13
  Polly Mertens: Yeah.
• 1:01:14
  Polly Mertens: All right.
• 1:01:16
  Polly Mertens: What's a what's a one thing, Ness, that anything that you've shared or haven't shared yet that you you think about that somebody who's, you know, an adult woman or or man um who's got a mom that doesn't win the Betty Crocker of the Year Best Mom award, what's one thing that like really helped you in how to navigate this?
• 1:01:35
  Polly Mertens: Something that you might want to leave them with.
• 1:01:40
  Nisse Noble: I would say so if I were talking to someone who had a complex relationship with their mom, she wasn't the way that they wished that she would be, I would say that sucks.
• 1:01:56
  Nisse Noble: And is there something amazing about you that you got from her?
• 1:02:07
  Nisse Noble: Because the non-Betty Crockers of the world also have a lot to give.
• 1:02:14
  Nisse Noble: They've also got a lot of unique aspects that we can write off as eccentricities or faults.
• 1:02:24
  Polly Mertens: So true.
• 1:02:26
  Nisse Noble: But I'm sure if you dig deep enough, there is something that is a part of yourself that you're proud of that came from them or that you learned from them.
• 1:02:40
  Polly Mertens: Thank you.
• 1:02:40
  Polly Mertens: So I feel like you're speaking to me, not just everyone, but to me too.
• 1:02:43
  Polly Mertens: So I'll take that.
• 1:02:44
  Nisse Noble: And I can't wait to re-listen to this to uh hear all of your wisdom and all our both of our wisdom.
• 1:02:51
  Nisse Noble: There's a lot in here.
• 1:02:52
  Polly Mertens: There's a lot here.
• 1:02:53
  Polly Mertens: That's really sweet.
• 1:02:54
  Polly Mertens: So thank you, my dear, for being on with us.
• 1:02:57
  Polly Mertens: And how can people find you?
• 1:02:59
  Polly Mertens: Tell us what the the I I I think we said it in the beginning, but just make sure that we let people know where to find you.
• 1:03:06
  Nisse Noble: Yeah, uh, you can find me at Planet Gail.
• 1:03:08
  Nisse Noble: So that's Planet Gail G-A-Y-L-E or Nissa Noble on social media, N-I-S-S-E, or at my new company, Third Nature.
• 1:03:19
  unknown: Third Nature.
• 1:03:20
  Polly Mertens: Awesome.
• 1:03:21
  Polly Mertens: Well, I have a feeling there's more uh coming, so this might be a to be continued.
• 1:03:25
  Polly Mertens: That would be lovely to have more time to unpack more with you.
• 1:03:28
  Polly Mertens: So thank you for being our guest today and for sharing all of this.
• 1:03:31
  Polly Mertens: And I hope that you know, if you're listening to this, that you either heard something in this story or in my story, whether your mom is still alive or she's passed, or something in here is touch something about, you know, like like it's okay, like you telling me some things that were okay with how I was reacting and how I was being.
• 1:03:48
  Polly Mertens: I hope in this you you felt some camaraderie and some seeing this, um, because that was really my goal and our goal with sharing this.
• 1:03:55
  Polly Mertens: So thank you for being a part of this conversation with us.
• 1:03:58
  Polly Mertens: And remember, my beautiful people and team awesome out there, how your life feels is more important than how it looks.
• 1:04:06
  Polly Mertens: And every day is your opportunity to find your awesome.