Latest / Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health / The Influence Factor: How Parents Can Use Leverage and Raise the Bottom for Treatment-Resistant Kids Struggling with Substance Misuse, with Jared Murray

Transcript

The Influence Factor: How Parents Can Use Leverage and Raise the Bottom for Treatment-Resistant Kids Struggling with Substance Misuse, with Jared Murray · Hopestream: Parenting Kids Through Addiction & Mental Health

• 0:01
  Jared: I do always try to tell families when I'm working with them, you know, on the front end that, Hey, like your, your loved one does not have to go to multiple treatments and your loved one does not have to experience multiple relapses in order to sustain this in their life.
• 0:15
  Jared: You know, those things do happen.
• 0:16
  Jared: Those things are a story for so many families.
• 0:19
  Jared: And we work with so many of those families as well.
• 0:22
  Jared: Sometimes it takes two or three or four treatments, unfortunately, for them to finally sustain this in their life.
• 0:28
  Jared: Sometimes we experience guys and girls.
• 0:30
  Jared: Have a relapse and that be the experience that wakes them up to the reality of what they really suffer from.
• 0:45
  Brenda: Welcome to Hope Stream, a podcast where you'll hear interviews, conversations, and encouraging words for parents of teens and young adults who struggle with substance misuse and mental health.
• 0:57
  Brenda: I'm Brenda Zane, your host, and a fellow parent whose child struggled I'm so glad you're here.
• 1:03
  Brenda: Take a deep breath and know you're not doing this alone anymore.
• 1:08
  Brenda: Hello friend, I'm excited to have you here today, but before we jump in with Jared, if you haven't already, take a deep breath.
• 1:19
  Brenda: Like the kind where you sort of sigh at the end because it felt so good.
• 1:24
  Brenda: I know you know you need to breathe, but I consistently hear from people that when they stop what they're doing just a few times a day.
• 1:33
  Brenda: And take maybe two to three minutes to breathe with intention.
• 1:38
  Brenda: It makes a significant difference in their world.
• 1:41
  Brenda: And I know you have two to three minutes.
• 1:43
  Brenda: So there's one of your breathing breaks today.
• 1:47
  Brenda: When I sat down with Jared Murray for this conversation, I knew he'd have some golden nuggets to share with me because he's a person in long term recovery.
• 1:56
  Brenda: And the years he struggled the most were in high school and early in his college career, which, by the way, got interrupted by his substance use.
• 2:06
  Brenda: And when I say interrupted, he got kicked out of the University of Alabama.
• 2:11
  Brenda: Jared is with Momentum Recovery in Wilmington, North Carolina, where he works with young adults and their families as they're deciding to get help for their substance use.
• 2:22
  Brenda: At Momentum, Jared is on the front end of the transition process, so he talks with lots of parents who are desperately trying to get their child to accept help.
• 2:32
  Brenda: And because he went through the experience himself 13 years ago, he has unique and valuable insights that you get to benefit from today.
• 2:41
  Brenda: We talked about when the right time is to seek help.
• 2:44
  Brenda: If your child is struggling, Jared shares his thoughts on the somewhat prevalent belief that relapse is an inevitable part of recovery.
• 2:52
  Brenda: He answered my questions about what kinds of boundaries parents can put in place that help move a young person toward accepting help.
• 3:00
  Brenda: And you'll hear him share why he believes interventions.
• 3:04
  Brenda: When done well can help move a person to the gift of recovery, even if they don't initially want to accept help.
• 3:12
  Brenda: It's all so enlightening.
• 3:13
  Brenda: And you may want to jot down notes because Jared spoke from his heart and will give you so much hope to hold on to, including how he went from being banned from the university of Alabama campus to running their collegiate recovery program.
• 3:28
  Brenda: I am telling you, get ready for a beautiful, hopeful conversation with Jared Murray.
• 3:33
  Brenda: From Momentum Recovery.
• 3:35
  Brenda: Enjoy.
• 3:51
  Brenda: Jared, welcome to Hope Stream.
• 3:53
  Brenda: We've, we got through our little technical difficulties and I'm so happy to have you here for this conversation.
• 4:00
  Brenda: So welcome to the podcast.
• 4:02
  Jared: Absolutely.
• 4:03
  Jared: Super, uh, excited and very grateful to be here with you, Brenda.
• 4:07
  Jared: And yeah, look forward to having some meaningful conversations about substance use and recovery and mental health and all the stuff I talk about every day.
• 4:15
  Brenda: Yeah, and you, you, you lived it and you see it and I would love to get like the Jared 101 if you'd be willing to give us that because it will help us understand sort of where you're coming from and also the work that you do, uh, today.
• 4:30
  Jared: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:31
  Jared: I grew up in a, you know, in a really loving family you know, loving parent to Ford.
• 4:36
  Jared: A lot of unconditional love, you know, and to me, I had an older brother who I looked up to and, you know, definitely every family system has its issues and has its, you know, trauma within the family system, so to speak.
• 4:48
  Jared: And, you know, I think, uh, I definitely experienced some of that, you know, growing up and from a young age, but for the most part, like, I had everything you could have asked for, you know, and I can say, though, that despite having all those positive things in my life growing up in terms of a good family support system, a good brother, a lot of friends, I played sports, you know, all those things, internally, I still never felt fully comfortable in my own skin.
• 5:14
  Jared: I always dealt with this, in recovery, we call it self centered fear, this like fear of not being good enough, fear of what other people think about me.
• 5:22
  Jared: Fear of the future, you know, fear of, you know, having people's acceptance and approval.
• 5:29
  Jared: Just a lot of, you know, kind of fear that revolved around me.
• 5:32
  Jared: And so I dealt with, even when I was around people, this feeling of feeling alone, you know, and kind of isolation and loneliness and just dealt with some low self esteem.
• 5:41
  Jared: Like, if you would have known me growing up as a parent or as a friend, like, you would have never thought that that's how I felt internally because that's not how I showed up.
• 5:49
  Jared: You know, in the world, but internally, that's how I felt.
• 5:51
  Jared: And as a result of feeling that way, when I was introduced to substances at a young age, I was like, Oh, this is my solution to that.
• 6:00
  Jared: You know, now I can feel the way that I want to feel and I can relate to people and I can feel comfortable around people and comfortable in my own skin.
• 6:07
  Jared: And so, you know, using substances, you know, seem to be my solution to my internal condition, which was my inability to be okay with myself and the world around me.
• 6:18
  Jared: And so, you know, throughout, I guess, my high school career, so to speak, when my substance use really kicked off as an early adolescent you know, just to paint the highlights of it, I, I went through a lot of unmanageability externally and internally.
• 6:32
  Jared: I put my family through a lot.
• 6:34
  Jared: There was a lot of legal issues that erupted in high school.
• 6:38
  Jared: There was a lot of school issues.
• 6:41
  Jared: There was a lot of issues you know, with sports.
• 6:44
  Jared: Like I made the, you know, varsity soccer team as a freshman, was a really good athlete.
• 6:48
  Jared: By the time my senior year rolled around, I didn't even play my senior year because my substance use had gotten so progressive.
• 6:54
  Jared: And I began to become very apathetic and just quit caring about things that were important to me, like academics and sports and things of that nature.
• 7:02
  Jared: And, and I was spiraling, you know, from 16 until 20 years old when I finally got sober.
• 7:07
  Jared: It was just like a one way down elevator.
• 7:09
  Jared: It was about the best way down until it crashed and burned, you know, essentially.
• 7:14
  Jared: But my, my youth quickly progressed to IV, opiate, and cocaine use when I was in college.
• 7:20
  Jared: I went to the University of Alabama.
• 7:22
  Jared: My, my parents, you know, thought if we just get them out of our house, You know, like, and he goes to college, he'll just grow up, and things will magically work out, and things will be okay, and, you know, we have fears about that, we know what high school looked like for him, but, we can't have him here anymore either, you know, because he's kind of wrecking our lives, and that was kind of the reality of what we lived in, because we all just lived in the chaos of my addiction for so long when I was in high school, so I went down to college, my addiction only progressively got worse I got arrested when I was 20 years old with about five different felonies in one case and two different misdemeanors and had some significant charges hanging over my head that were all centered around my substance use at the time.
• 8:04
  Jared: And I, of course, dropped out of the fraternity, was expelled from the University of Alabama.
• 8:10
  Jared: I went to treatment two days after that arrest.
• 8:14
  Jared: And that was January 29th, 2011.
• 8:18
  Jared: You know, and, and then entering treatment.
• 8:21
  Jared: At that point, at 20 years old I've, I've been able to sustain sobriety in my life since then, which just came up on, you know, 13, 13 years actually clean and sober this past January.
• 8:32
  Jared: So, you know, it's been a, been a really good journey in my life, you know, since entering treatment, I've been able to restore relationships with my family.
• 8:40
  Jared: You know, been able to get married and have a wonderful family with, you know, we have lots of animals, no kids yet, but, you know, we, uh, we, we love our life and we love our, you know, kind of what we've been able to build.
• 8:53
  Jared: And my wife has started a great physical therapy career.
• 8:56
  Jared: And I've.
• 8:57
  Jared: You know, I've been able to have an awesome career working in the field of substance use and mental health and, you know, after I, uh, got out of treatment, I had dreams of going back to school and graduating and getting my degree, which I was able to do that, and I went back to the University of Alabama and was able to help start their collegiate recovery community and went through that program, which was so mind blowing to me because I was told I'd never be able to return to that campus and was expelled.
• 9:21
  Jared: And, you know, they let me come back and, you know, I was able to, uh, you know, finish and get a degree and be very successful in school and get 4.
• 9:29
  Jared: 0s every semester, which I never thought I'd be able to do something like that.
• 9:34
  Jared: Everything I ever attempted during my substance use, I failed at.
• 9:37
  Jared: You know, whether it be school, whether it be relationships anything like that, I was not good at sustaining.
• 9:43
  Jared: And so in recovery, being able to do that just was so You know, fulfilling for me, right?
• 9:48
  Jared: So I got my degree and actually went on after that to pursue a master's and got my master's.
• 9:54
  Jared: And, uh, yeah, I've been living this, this life since then and finally had the ability to be comfortable in my own skin and have some healthy relationships again in my life.
• 10:02
  Jared: And you know, I get to have fun in recovery too.
• 10:05
  Jared: I love fly fishing.
• 10:06
  Jared: I love trail running.
• 10:07
  Jared: I love, uh, being outside.
• 10:09
  Jared: I love music.
• 10:10
  Jared: I go to a lot of concerts, you know, in recovery and that was something that was important to me with getting sober in my twenties was seeing that I could still have fun to be able to see that I could be a normal 20 year old in recovery.
• 10:19
  Jared: You know, so but yeah, that's just a little bit of the, you know, synopsis of my addiction and my recovery and kind of what all that looked like for me.
• 10:29
  Brenda: Amazing.
• 10:30
  Brenda: I have 4 million questions about all of that, but the one I really want to understand the most is, because I hear this all the time from our parents, and I believe it was true for my son, is that feeling of not being comfortable in your own skin and how substances just don't you know, really fill that space and really solve a problem, which, you know, we, we talk about all the time, how the substances aren't the problem.
• 10:57
  Brenda: They're actually the solution.
• 10:59
  Brenda: But what do you, what did you learn along the way that now allows you to be comfortable in your own skin and to manage those feelings without the substances?
• 11:08
  Brenda: Because obviously you found a different bandaid for that problem, or do you think it was you aged out of it?
• 11:15
  Brenda: Like talk a little bit about how you transition because that's pretty amazing.
• 11:23
  Jared: Yeah.
• 11:25
  Jared: And I think that's like the biggest piece of recovery and long term recovery is learning how to, you know, regulate our emotions in a healthy way and learning how to have, you know, what they call an AA emotional sobriety and And that's always continuously still been a challenge for me, right, even at 13 years clean and sober, and a lot of it's conducive to, like, what am I doing for myself today, you know, therapeutically, to be able to sustain, first off, self awareness about those things, and also the ability to cope with those things, you know, in a healthy way, and, you know, my sponsor says that, you know, our disease is always with us.
• 12:06
  Jared: What we learn in recovery is we learn how to live with it.
• 12:08
  Jared: You know, and I mean, that's what recovery really has taught me is how to live with it, you know, and, and I don't think I was aware that I felt that way as a young adult or an adolescent.
• 12:21
  Jared: Like, I just didn't have that level of emotional intelligence or self awareness about myself.
• 12:26
  Jared: I just knew that I felt uncomfortable and I didn't like the way that I felt.
• 12:31
  Jared: And when I was introduced to substance abuse, those feelings, you know, went away.
• 12:34
  Jared: I don't know that, you know, at the beginning of my addiction, when I was 13, 14 years old, that I knew that I was running from something, you know?
• 12:42
  Jared: The later years of my addiction, I think I did start to realize some of that, but it really wasn't until I got into recovery that I was able to gain that level of self awareness.
• 12:52
  Jared: And that resulted from doing the work on me, right.
• 12:55
  Jared: And, you know, diving into, in my own personal journey, 12 step recovery, which is what was, you know, what works for me and working with a sponsor and going through the steps and looking at my patterns and looking at, you know, me on a very deep level.
• 13:10
  Jared: It's where I really got in touch with that and, and I recall like going to meetings for the first time in recovery and like hearing these people share the way that I felt and the way that I thought, you know, and for my whole life, even as a young, young child and adolescent and young adult, I felt like I was misunderstood.
• 13:27
  Jared: Nobody felt the way that I felt or thought the way that I thought.
• 13:30
  Jared: And when I got into recovery, I heard all these people sharing the same feelings.
• 13:34
  Jared: And the same thought process and, and that was comforting to me, you know, like I, I didn't just identify with them on the level of substances that they were using.
• 13:41
  Jared: Those things are important, but I identify with them on the deeper elements of like, why they used.
• 13:46
  Jared: Cause that's what I wanted relief from, you know, was that like pain that I experienced so much was, you know, You know, that internal stuff.
• 13:54
  Jared: So to answer that question, I think it resulted from consistent therapeutic work in terms of sustaining, you know, my recovery and my sobriety.
• 14:03
  Jared: And that is continuous, right?
• 14:05
  Jared: Like, I still deal with those things today.
• 14:06
  Jared: I internalize things.
• 14:08
  Jared: I, you know take things personal when I shouldn't.
• 14:11
  Jared: I, you know, and I'd have to stop and take a step back and be able to, you know, You know, regulate my emotions in a healthy way as a result of having some self awareness today about those things as a result of continuously doing therapeutic work on myself, you know?
• 14:25
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 14:25
  Brenda: And, and I know that, you know, everybody finds their own tools that work for them and going through whether that's, like you said, I think the self awareness piece of it is so huge to first even be aware that you're having those feelings and then being able to go back and, and I hear this.
• 14:42
  Brenda: for my son too, it's like, oh yeah, all that stuff they taught me back when I was, you know, 16, 17.
• 14:48
  Brenda: Now I go back to those things because they actually work.
• 14:51
  Brenda: But at the time, I just sort of dismissed them.
• 14:54
  Brenda: But you, I know we were talking before you did not experience a relapse.
• 14:58
  Brenda: And I would love to have you talk a little bit about that because you have There's, there's a little bit of chatter in this whole world about, well, it's a given, it's going to happen.
• 15:09
  Brenda: Just be ready.
• 15:10
  Brenda: Everybody relapses, you know, deal with it.
• 15:15
  Brenda: And maybe that is true for a lot of folks, but it's not for everybody.
• 15:18
  Brenda: So maybe talk a little bit about what that was like, because I think it's really good for parents to hear that.
• 15:25
  Jared: Yeah, absolutely.
• 15:26
  Jared: And I think it is too, right?
• 15:28
  Jared: You know, I know for, for me, like getting into recovery, being in treatment, Getting into, you know, kind of the, the recovery fellowship and in those circles, you just hear so much about relapse and the way that I internalized that early on in recovery was that, Oh, like relapse, the prerequisite for me, like.
• 15:48
  Jared: It's what has to happen for me for me to be able to ever sustain long term recovery.
• 15:52
  Jared: It must be something that I need to do, you know, like, that was like, kind of the message I heard early on.
• 15:58
  Jared: And it was one of the things that I struggled with, you know, you get into meetings, you get into recovery and like, I still deal with this illness that wants to separate me from everyone else and wants to make me feel like I'm not like everybody else.
• 16:10
  Jared: And so when I hear like people have relapsed and I haven't, it's like, Whoa, do I need to do that to earn my spot here?
• 16:15
  Jared: You know, like that's what you started to kind of believe.
• 16:17
  Jared: And, and, and I was so thankful that there were some people that I was around in my early recovery who did teach me that, Hey, relapse is not a requirement.
• 16:26
  Jared: You know, it's not something that you have to experience and able to be able to fully experience recovery and long term recovery.
• 16:33
  Jared: And because I had so much fear around going back to the life that I.
• 16:38
  Jared: Was living prior, you know, I mean, I was so Broken when I got into recovery and so beaten down and, and did have that gift of desperation finally, and I did not want to go back to what I was doing, and I was willing to do whatever people told me that I needed to do to sustain this in my life and, and so I do think that fear of relapse was healthy for me in that way, you know, so I, I do always try to it.
• 17:03
  Jared: Tell families when I'm working with them, you know, on the front end that, Hey, like your, your loved one does not have to go to multiple treatments and your loved one does not have to experience multiple relapses in order to sustain this in their life.
• 17:15
  Jared: You know, those things do happen.
• 17:16
  Jared: Those things are a story for so many families and we work with so many of those families as well.
• 17:21
  Jared: I'd say that I'm the minority in terms of those who go to treatment one time and sustain long term sobriety, right?
• 17:28
  Jared: Most people don't have that experience.
• 17:30
  Jared: But for families who, you know, do experience relapse and do experience multiple treatments.
• 17:35
  Jared: I always try to tell them that like, you know, recovery always can be obtainable.
• 17:41
  Jared: There's always hope like if they're alive, there is always hope for recovery, you know, and sometimes it takes two or three or four treatments, unfortunately, for them to finally sustain this in their life.
• 17:53
  Jared: You know, that those resources that you put towards treatment, you know, are not a waste in terms of understanding that every treatment they go through, they learn something new every single time there's new information given.
• 18:05
  Jared: There's new seeds that are planted, and I think there's some prevention that happens through, you know, doing some of that work as well in terms of slowing down the progressive nature of this disease.
• 18:15
  Jared: And so, When a relapse does happen, if it does happen, it doesn't necessarily have to be a failure, you know, like it can be an opportunity to use that relapse to be able to finally garnish and be able to sustain long term sobriety afterwards if we can look at why the relapse happened and kind of, I don't know, do that work from that standpoint, right?
• 18:35
  Jared: Like, in simpler terms, sometimes we experience guys you know, that we work with and girls You know, because we work with young adult men and women have a relapse and that be the experience that wakes them up to the reality of what they really suffer from, you know, and it really starts to help them understand their illness and, you know, what they struggle with on a deeper level, which kind of sparks that fire and ignites that fire for recovery going forward.
• 19:02
  Jared: Right?
• 19:03
  Jared: So trying to help families understand that relapse, Doesn't have to be a failure in a lot of cases.
• 19:07
  Jared: It's not a failure and most right and kind of changing the way that we discuss relapse in our language around it.
• 19:14
  Jared: I think it's important, but just like you're kind of asking in regards to my story understanding to that relapse doesn't have to be a part of everybody's story and.
• 19:23
  Jared: There are those that can go to treatment one time if we do things correctly is what I tell the whole family if we do these things correctly and we follow suggestions and we give our loved one their best chance at sobriety, you know, like, let's do that and see what happens.
• 19:37
  Jared: Right?
• 19:38
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 19:39
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Brenda: And, and what do you think about because I know you have families who are desperate to get their young person into treatment.
• 19:48
  Brenda: They are desperate to do whatever they can to, you know, avoid the train wreck that they can see coming.
• 19:56
  Brenda: And When, and a lot of times our kids are just really resistant, you know, they're not at a point where they're like, like you were, like you were so desperate.
• 20:06
  Brenda: What do you tell families like that, that, that are calling you and saying, Jared, help us out.
• 20:12
  Brenda: Like, what do we do to get this kid?
• 20:16
  Jared: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Jared: Yeah.
• 20:17
  Jared: And I think that's like the biggest thing that we deal with on the admission side of things and on the intervention side of things, right?
• 20:24
  Jared: Like working with young adults and working with adolescents, you know, specifically those demographics.
• 20:30
  Jared: Like we, we deal with a lot of treatment resistance.
• 20:32
  Jared: We deal with a lot of pre contemplation where they're not so sure that they really have a problem and they're really struggling to accept the fact that they have a problem.
• 20:40
  Jared: You know we deal with those things on a really deep level.
• 20:45
  Jared: Coaching the whole entire family and trying to get the family system to a place of understanding that, you know, it's really hard for us to gauge your loved one who's struggling.
• 20:56
  Jared: It's really hard for us to gauge their motivation right now when they're in a position where they can't make rational decisions.
• 21:02
  Brenda: Right.
• 21:03
  Jared: If we look at what happens in the brain with the disease of addiction and how it hijacks the midbrain and the prefrontal cortex, when we start to understand that on a deeper level, I always try to help families see, like, they can't make a rational decision regarding what they need, you know, and that doesn't mean That they're not ready for help and that doesn't mean that they won't be successful in treatment because that's what every parent gets hung up on, right?
• 21:26
  Jared: It's like, well, they're not going to be successful until they ask for help or until they're ready, you know?
• 21:30
  Jared: And it's like, well, we can't sit around and wait for them to make the decision to go to treatment because that probably won't ever happen if it's left up to them.
• 21:39
  Jared: Right.
• 21:39
  Jared: And, and I, and I know for me, like when I look at my story, I wanted help a long time before I actually got help, you know?
• 21:46
  Jared: Right.
• 21:47
  Jared: And, and even though I had that gift of desperation, like, that lightbulb moment didn't happen for me until I was in treatment.
• 21:55
  Jared: You know, like, the day before I went to treatment, when I was getting arrested, I was telling those police officers, you don't understand, like, I've been clean for two weeks, guys, like, I don't need treatment.
• 22:04
  Jared: I don't need any help.
• 22:05
  Jared: And I was like, believing the insane things that I was saying.
• 22:09
  Jared: That's how delusional, that's how delusional I was, you know, like they're finding narcotics in my vehicle and paraphernalia and I'm telling them I have not used in two weeks and somewhat believing the lies, you know?
• 22:21
  Jared: So it's like, how can we let that individual, you know, how can we gauge their motivation or their readiness for treatment when they still Clearly are having a hard time separating between what's true and what's not and what's real and what's not, you know So I do try to put some responsibility on the family In this sense, to like, let's put some boundaries in place from a place of love, let's utilize what leverage we have to hopefully try to get them into treatment and help them make this decision since they're going to be incapable of making this decision on their own, left up to their own thinking, you know?
• 22:54
  Jared: Because it's all about, it's not about how they get there, it's about the work that they do once they get there, right?
• 23:00
  Jared: Let's try to raise their bottom and teach them that they can put the shovel down and they don't have to dig that hole any deeper, you know?
• 23:06
  Jared: There are ways that we can step in and help intervene and help raise their bottom and help them get into treatment, you know, and we can't just sit around and wait for them.
• 23:22
  Brenda: Hey there, are you feeling stuck in a cycle of drama and arguments with your child?
• 23:27
  Brenda: Worried sick about their substance use?
• 23:29
  Brenda: I have been there and I want you to know there's hope.
• 23:32
  Brenda: This podcast is just one piece of the curated and trustworthy resources and solutions we offer for parents.
• 23:39
  Brenda: We recognize you need emotional support and a solid plan for moving forward making positive change in your family.
• 23:47
  Brenda: So in addition to connecting with other parents and feeling like part of something bigger, we also teach you practical skills and strategies to dial down the drama and diffuse those heated moments.
• 23:59
  Brenda: We step you through the evidence based craft approach, a game changer that can help you invite your child to accept help without resorting to tough love or waiting for rock bottom.
• 24:10
  Brenda: We have so much more than the podcast waiting for you.
• 24:13
  Brenda: Head over to HopeStreamCommunity.
• 24:15
  Brenda: org to tap into all of our resources and become part of the HopeStream family in our private online community.
• 24:23
  Brenda: Remember, you're not alone in this.
• 24:26
  Brenda: We're doing it together.
• 24:27
  Brenda: Now, let's get back to the conversation.
• 24:43
  Brenda: You said something really insightful though, that you, even before you did get help, that there were times where you wanted help.
• 24:52
  Brenda: And I'm wondering if you could give us some insight into what prevented you from doing that.
• 24:57
  Brenda: Because I think that is super important for parents to understand that there might be times when what they're hearing and seeing might not actually be in alignment with how their, their kid is feeling.
• 25:10
  Jared: Yeah.
• 25:11
  Jared: Yeah.
• 25:12
  Jared: I mean, like, you know, the times that I wanted help before I actually got help, you know, it was important to know that, like, I didn't have the ability, like I said, to make the rational decision regarding just telling my parents I wanted help and telling them I needed to go to treatment.
• 25:28
  Jared: You know, I didn't have the ability to make that decision left up to my own thinking, but they did know that I was struggling.
• 25:34
  Jared: They did know that things were going on.
• 25:36
  Jared: Yeah.
• 25:37
  Jared: You know, with me.
• 25:38
  Jared: And I think looking back today, I think some things they could have done differently.
• 25:43
  Jared: And my mom would tell you this too, is stepped in sooner, you know, and put some boundaries in place sooner from a place of love, utilize some levers that they did have with me because they did support me financially, you know, in every single way I think would have made a big difference with me getting help.
• 25:59
  Jared: Before I actually did, you know, so I mean, I, I know for me, I didn't have this ability to reach out to others and to reach out to my family and ask for help, but I know deep down I wanted it.
• 26:11
  Jared: But my addiction was at such a progressive place in my life at that point that the only thing that mattered was the obsession and the compulsion to use drugs.
• 26:18
  Jared: You know, like it dictated my every single day from the minute I woke up, from the minute I went to bed.
• 26:24
  Jared: And, you know, I think it's important for families that we work with to understand the chronic progressive nature of addiction.
• 26:30
  Jared: of substance use disorder and how it hijacks the brain in that sense, right?
• 26:35
  Jared: Because I think that puts a lot of emphasis on stepping in, you know, and trying to formulate some sort of intervention.
• 26:42
  Brenda: You mentioned boundaries as a way to help raise the bottom, which I love because I, I think that is such a great tool to use.
• 26:52
  Brenda: Talk a little bit about what those boundaries might look like for parents whose kids are In this position where the parents are like, they really, they're very sick.
• 27:02
  Brenda: They really need to get into treatment.
• 27:04
  Brenda: And they're wondering like, what are some boundaries that we could put in place to help?
• 27:09
  Brenda: Potentially make that happen.
• 27:12
  Jared: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Jared: I think like, you know, when working with families specifically around, you know, that topic and that conversation, it's trying to figure out like, okay, like what leverage do we have, if any, you know, I mean, do we support them financially?
• 27:26
  Jared: Do they live at home with us?
• 27:28
  Jared: Do we pay for their car?
• 27:29
  Jared: Do we pay for their phone?
• 27:30
  Jared: I mean, there's, there's different things that we, you know, can try to look at and we can try to utilize to be able to get them into treatment.
• 27:37
  Jared: Because at the end of the day, like, for a lot of the people we work with, it's a very life or death situation, you know?
• 27:43
  Jared: And so, being able to step in and utilize what leverage we have, To help their loved one make a rational decision regarding getting help since they're incapable of making that decision on their own, you know, I think is, I think is crucial.
• 27:56
  Jared: And we always try to coach families on, you know, Doing that from a place of love, you know, if you, if, if families have the ability to hire a professional interventionist to step in and do an intervention, I think that process is great.
• 28:08
  Jared: It's not like what you see on TV, everyone thinks interventions are such like a traumatic experience.
• 28:13
  Jared: I'm like, it really can be one of the most loving, you know, experiences that really brings the whole family together, you know, because what we're trying to effectively do in an intervention is pull some heartstrings to get their loved one to commit to going to treatment.
• 28:26
  Jared: So in combination of.
• 28:28
  Jared: The goal is to help someone be able to make a rational decision regarding getting treatment since they're incapable of making it on their own.
• 28:39
  Jared: You know, the young men that we work with at Momentum, they all come in because of boundaries.
• 28:46
  Jared: They all come in to our program because parents are utilising leverage, you know.
• 28:51
  Jared: They come in initially not wanting to be there not being super stoked about treatment but, but they come in because parents have done some sort of intervention or they put some boundaries in place.
• 29:02
  Jared: And then at that point, it's, it's our job to try to help get them engaged in recovery.
• 29:07
  Brenda: Those are really good tips.
• 29:08
  Brenda: And I'm glad you said that about interventions, because I do think that sometimes the, the TV show image, which is just for entertainment.
• 29:16
  Brenda: I always try to remind people that that's not how it has to go.
• 29:21
  Brenda: Can be really loving and can be that.
• 29:24
  Brenda: Raising the bottom for them to see, oh, you know, they really do want me to get help and to be healthy.
• 29:32
  Brenda: And I love how you've given some ideas about how to create that leverage.
• 29:36
  Brenda: Because a lot of times I think parents feel like they just don't have any leverage.
• 29:41
  Brenda: But getting into some of those supports and how are you supporting them and doing that from a place of love is so, so important.
• 29:49
  Brenda: So I'm glad you shared that.
• 29:51
  Brenda: How do, how would a parent know if there potentially was a little bit of motivation?
• 29:58
  Brenda: Like how do they gauge when might be the right time to have an intervention or when, when might that be an absolute waste of time?
• 30:05
  Brenda: Everybody's resources like are there things that they could be looking or listening for with their with their person young person?
• 30:14
  Jared: I would always tell a family if they were calling me Wondering when the correct time is to you know, try to intervene You know would be at the first sign that we know that this person really needs help You know, like I don't like waiting around for like a day For, for them to ask for help or for them to show some readiness or to show some motivation, because like I said, a lot of times, like, we won't ever really see that if we wait for it, you know?
• 30:38
  Jared: But I think the things to look for in terms of, you know, signs of substance use is like, are they isolating from the family?
• 30:46
  Jared: In our gut, do we believe something is truly going on with them, you know, like what kind of money are they spending, you know, what, what kind of other issues seem to go and be going on with them from a relationship standpoint and a friendship standpoint?
• 30:58
  Jared: What crowd are they hanging around?
• 31:00
  Jared: I don't know the various different things we can look for to try to pinpoint.
• 31:04
  Jared: Are they dealing with substance use issues?
• 31:06
  Jared: And I guess for my family to be more blunt, like, All those things times 10 were staring them in the face, right?
• 31:13
  Jared: But they still had a really hard time accepting the truth of what was going on with me.
• 31:18
  Jared: And I think a lot of that was their own fear of If we do accept that, that's the problem, then there's going to be a lot of work and a lot of things we have to do and a lot of hard decisions we have to make, right?
• 31:30
  Jared: And sometimes we rationalize and justify things as an attempt to not have to deal with those difficult things, and I think that was what my family went through.
• 31:38
  Jared: On top of having a hard time accepting that, their son had a substance abuse issue, you know, and just the stigma that's associated around that.
• 31:48
  Jared: And as a result of my parents, like, justifying and rationalizing things just like I was for a long time, I think that's what prolonged me getting the help that I needed and them getting the help that they needed, right?
• 32:01
  Jared: And, and I was really good at convincing them that everything was okay, and, and we all kind of lived in this.
• 32:07
  Jared: You know, state of denial for so long, it was like my addiction held their heads underwater and they couldn't even take a breath, you know, for years.
• 32:14
  Jared: And, you know, we, we look at how addiction and substance use disorder, right, affects the whole entire family system.
• 32:21
  Jared: And it affects the family just in the same way that it does the individual who's using.
• 32:25
  Jared: And so my mom was not able to make rational decisions, just like I wasn't, you know?
• 32:30
  Jared: And so That's why it's a lot of times good to bring in an outsider who can help us and steer all of us in the right direction with all of these things, you know?
• 32:40
  Brenda: Yes.
• 32:40
  Brenda: And it's so true because as, as the months turn into years and the years turn into more years, as the family sort of soaks in this dysfunction, it can kind of start to look like, well, this is just how it is in our family.
• 32:56
  Brenda: And you lose sight of the fact that That is not how it should be looking right.
• 33:01
  Brenda: This behavior is completely out of line with any kind of behavior that should be going on and we do rationalize and, and I think that the stigma around this prevents parents so much from seeking help, whereas if your kid was diagnosed with PTSD.
• 33:20
  Brenda: leukemia.
• 33:21
  Brenda: We wouldn't be talking in, in whispers and like trying to, trying to be really quiet about finding resources.
• 33:29
  Brenda: Like we would be out there doing a GoFundMe, pounding the pavement, finding all the latest research and the latest treatment trials and all of that.
• 33:39
  Brenda: So I think for, for parents to know not to delay that and, and to really take a critical look and an objective look at what's happening in your family.
• 33:51
  Brenda: Like you said, with, you know, it is hard as a parent to accept my kid has a problem with, alcohol, weed, heroin, like fill in the blank, because it feels bad.
• 34:04
  Brenda: Like you feel like you have somehow failed as a parent.
• 34:08
  Brenda: And I have lots of other podcast episodes on how not to believe that.
• 34:13
  Brenda: But it is, it is so true.
• 34:15
  Brenda: It's so true.
• 34:16
  Brenda: And I'm sure you see that and that's just got to be frustrating and heartbreaking at the same time in your role when you're really trying to get guys in and girls to get them in to really get the help that they need.
• 34:28
  Jared: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Jared: Yeah.
• 34:30
  Jared: And I mean, like, as far as the stigma goes and the barrier that it presents, you know, from keeping people from getting help and that the families that we work with, like you're saying, like, you know, we need to view them as a cancer patient.
• 34:43
  Jared: You know, they're suffering from a progressive incurable disease, just like cancer, just like diabetes, just like any of those things.
• 34:49
  Jared: And how can.
• 34:51
  Jared: I guess our job in this field is like, how can we get the family to a place of viewing them that way and, and having that level of compassion and empathy for them again, right?
• 35:04
  Jared: And what makes it so difficult with substance use disorder is to continue to view them that way is we get compassion fatigue, you know, like, cause the person from the person who does have cancer doesn't feel from you.
• 35:15
  Jared: Doesn't lie to you, doesn't wreck your vehicle that, you know, like there's not all this external.
• 35:21
  Jared: wreckage and unmanageability that happens.
• 35:23
  Jared: So we lose compassion, you know, and which causes us to quickly lose sight of what it is that they're really suffering from.
• 35:31
  Jared: And when it's our loved ones, you know, like it really makes it difficult.
• 35:36
  Jared: You know, like I can coach Brenda, I can coach families all day long on maintaining compassion and why it's important and how it's crucial to be able to have that, to get your loved one help.
• 35:46
  Jared: But when it comes to my own family member that's struggling, I lose that compassion quick, you know what I mean?
• 35:51
  Jared: And I'm like, well, I can't, they just couldn't, they're just not being smart.
• 35:55
  Jared: You know, I can't, they're just being dumb.
• 35:57
  Jared: They're just, you know, and like, and I started to have that same mindset that a family has and I lose sight of like what it is that they're really suffering from.
• 36:04
  Brenda: It's so true.
• 36:05
  Brenda: It's so true.
• 36:06
  Brenda: This, the symptoms of this are so.
• 36:11
  Brenda: Uh, damaging from a relationship standpoint that it is hard to, and this is why we just constantly, you know, preach compassion and empathy because it is exhausting in it.
• 36:26
  Brenda: And you know, we have families who've been at this for 10 or 15 years and to keep that level of empathy and compassion.
• 36:34
  Brenda: You know, I'm sure you see parents who need increased self care, but I think that's the only way to do it is you've got to take care of yourself.
• 36:42
  Brenda: And if you're not doing that, then it's actually your kid who's going to be suffering because of that.
• 36:49
  Jared: Yeah, that's exactly right.
• 36:51
  Jared: And I think like on, on that topic in terms of self care for, for families and how it's so crucial.
• 36:57
  Jared: And I tried to tell every family on the front end, like.
• 37:01
  Jared: What's going to be indicative of your loved one having a successful outcome is going to be family involvement and family engagement through the treatment process.
• 37:09
  Jared: Like, if you guys all can recover together as a family system, that's going to be what indicates a successful outcome for your loved one, you know, more than anything else.
• 37:19
  Jared: And so I think that self care for families and families doing their own work, it's so crucial for everybody, but it's so crucial for the loved one to be able to be successful, you know?
• 37:28
  Jared: And so, like, My parents did engage in doing some of their own work.
• 37:32
  Jared: They did accept my condition.
• 37:34
  Jared: They were supportive of my recovery.
• 37:36
  Jared: They showed up to family programs.
• 37:38
  Jared: They, you know, celebrated when I, you know, had anniversaries and recovery and they were open about my substance use with like my aunts and my uncles and people and we just all like there was this transparency and honesty there and openness there that I was okay with.
• 37:51
  Jared: But like, Okay.
• 37:52
  Jared: Because that was there, I didn't feel like, you know, my substance use and my recovery was something that had to be hidden, you know, so there wasn't this shame that I lived with as a result of being a person in recovery.
• 38:03
  Jared: And that was so freeing in itself, but also it helps us heal as a family.
• 38:09
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 38:10
  Jared: Recovery is so much about relationships and having healthy relationships and my family and the restoration of our relationships is absolutely what contributed, I think, to my success and still does today.
• 38:23
  Brenda: Yeah.
• 38:23
  Brenda: The shame part of it is so huge.
• 38:25
  Brenda: We could do a whole episode just on shame and how that can really keep people struggling and, you know, And keep families from, from seeking the help that they need.
• 38:34
  Brenda: But I know I need to let you go.
• 38:36
  Brenda: I would love to just ask you, uh, before I do, what do you love most about what you do?
• 38:42
  Jared: That's a tough question.
• 38:43
  Jared: You know, I think what, what I love most about what I do, I mean, have to be working with families.
• 38:50
  Jared: That's what I think I'm probably the best at.
• 38:52
  Jared: That's what I enjoy the most is coaching families, working with them, watching them be able to come together and get their loved one into treatment.
• 39:00
  Jared: Seeing the relief that they experience when that happens, but but also like what I love doing as well is like when We see guys in our program have success and now work for us, you know Like when I went and visited Momentum since I don't live there on site on the other week, you know There's a young man who works for us now who has Two years sober who like, when he first came to us, like he was a knucklehead.
• 39:22
  Jared: He was so tough, you know, and, and he's working for us now.
• 39:26
  Jared: And so like those kinds of moments are really what remind me why we do what we do and why I love doing what I do.
• 39:32
  Jared: You know,
• 39:33
  Brenda: thank you so much for joining me and just sharing your experience and.
• 39:40
  Brenda: Just giving some hope to parents who have that kid in front of them or somewhere roaming around their house who is, you know, resistant and ornery.
• 39:48
  Brenda: I think this is going to be really helpful for them.
• 39:50
  Brenda: So thanks for joining me, Jared.
• 39:52
  Jared: Yeah.
• 39:52
  Jared: Thank you so much for having me on here, Brenda.
• 39:54
  Jared: This has been awesome.
• 39:56
  Brenda: Okay, my friend, that is a wrap for today.
• 39:58
  Brenda: Don't forget to download the new ebook, Worried Sick.
• 40:02
  Brenda: It's totally free and it will shed so much light on positive tools and strategies you can use right now.
• 40:09
  Brenda: To start creating those positive conditions for change in your home and in your relationships.
• 40:14
  Brenda: It is at hopestreamcommunity.
• 40:16
  Brenda: org forward slash worried.
• 40:19
  Brenda: And guess what?
• 40:20
  Brenda: We have moved the entire podcast to our website at HopeStreamCommunity.
• 40:25
  Brenda: org.
• 40:26
  Brenda: So now when you want the show notes or resources, or if you want to download a transcript, just go to HopeStreamCommunity.
• 40:33
  Brenda: org and click on podcast and you will find it all there.
• 40:37
  Brenda: You can search by keyword, episode number, guest name, and we have created playlists for you.
• 40:43
  Brenda: It makes it much easier to find episodes grouped by topic.
• 40:46
  Brenda: So we're really excited to have that done and hope you like the podcast's new home.
• 40:53
  Brenda: Please be extraordinarily good to yourself today.
• 40:55
  Brenda: Take a deep breath.
• 40:57
  Brenda: You've got this and you are going to be okay.
• 41:00
  Brenda: You're not doing it alone.
• 41:02
  Brenda: I will meet you right back here next week.