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The Unseen War For The Human Mind · Life TV now

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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those
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Speaker 1: of the participants and do not necessarily reflect those of
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Speaker 1: the network or its affiliates. This content is for informational
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Speaker 1: purposes only and should not be considered medical advice nor
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Speaker 1: treated as a replacement for diagnosis or treatment. Please consult
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Speaker 1: your healthcare provider of choice regarding any personal changes to
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Speaker 1: your health or treatment plan. What if some of the
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Speaker 1: thoughts that you battle aren't entirely your own? Scripture warns
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Speaker 1: that our struggle isn't merely against flesh and blood, but
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Speaker 1: against rulers, powers, and spiritual forces of evil. Yet somewhere
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Speaker 1: along the way, many Christians have stopped seeing the world
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Speaker 1: through a biblical lens like the original authors of the
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Speaker 1: Bible did. So who are these unseen enemies and what
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Speaker 1: do they want? Today we uncover the ancient battle for
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Speaker 1: the human mind. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Life TV Now,
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Speaker 1: where we unpack all matters of truth, faith, and freedom.
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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Joe Artishorn. Today, we continue a powerful
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Speaker 1: discussion with our special guest talking about the unseen realm.
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Speaker 1: We're talking about the spiritual arena where things like mental health,
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Speaker 1: people grappling with depression, people grappling with thoughts of unaliving themselves,
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Speaker 1: the dark oppression that takes place at night when people
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Speaker 1: feel that they're held down, some people struggling with with
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Speaker 1: sleep paralysis, all of the things that a lot of
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Speaker 1: times traditional psychologists, people that want to medicate, that want
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Speaker 1: to go the traditional path of evaluating things psychologically miss
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Speaker 1: when they divorce themselves from the very prevailing, oftentimes, spiritual realm.
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Speaker 1: But before we dive in, let me introduce who's here.
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Speaker 1: She's an integrative nutrition health coach with a master of
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Speaker 1: science and health education. Please welcome our executive director, Jamie Woodall.
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Speaker 1: And she's a licensed clinical mental health counselor with over
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Speaker 1: 20 years of experience combining clinical expertise with a deeply
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Speaker 1: biblical worldview. She's the founder of Mental Warrior Consulting and
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Speaker 1: author of the brand new book, Humanity Under Siege. Please
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Speaker 1: welcome Dr. Natalie Atwell. Look at this cover. Look at
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Speaker 1: this cover. I am so proud to say that I
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Speaker 1: have the honor of having published this important work. Let
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Speaker 1: me read to you the title and the subtitle. Let's
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Speaker 1: bring this up on the screen. Humanity Under Siege, The
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Speaker 1: Unseen Realm and the Spiritual War Against the Human Mind. Dr.
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Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell, if you guys missed last week's program, go
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Speaker 1: back to the archives, wherever it is that you watch
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Speaker 1: Life TV now. We were just beginning to set the landscape.
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Speaker 1: We were setting the table. We were building the framework
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Speaker 1: for how Not to disparage traditional psychologists, we point out
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Speaker 1: the tremendous value that they bring to the equation, but
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Speaker 1: anybody that's doing counseling, life coaching, any form of mental
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Speaker 1: health intervention that divorces themselves from the spirit realm might
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Speaker 1: be missing huge things. And I want to start, and
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Speaker 1: this is a little off script, but I want to
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Speaker 1: start here because you said something in between the break
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Speaker 1: last week that I really want to start with today
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Speaker 1: because it kind of follows up what I just said.
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Speaker 1: When you divorce your program from the spirit realm, you
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Speaker 1: may be missing huge factors of what it would take
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Speaker 1: to help somebody who is struggling with things like dark depression,
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Speaker 1: somebody who's dealing with thoughts they don't even want to
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Speaker 1: tell their spouse or mother or cousin or grandpa about,
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Speaker 1: something they're hiding because it's a shame cycle, something that
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Speaker 1: has convinced them they have no value, but they don't
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Speaker 1: even want to say it out loud because it's For
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Speaker 1: some of them, maybe they're even reciting scripture and God
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Speaker 1: has not given us a spirit of fear. And if
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Speaker 1: there be any good things, think upon these things. And
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Speaker 1: like they know all the fridge magnet theology, they know
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Speaker 1: the t-shirt theology, and I'm not diminishing the scripture. I'm
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Speaker 1: saying they know all the little things, but they themselves
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Speaker 1: are finding it difficult to take true rest and joy
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Speaker 1: in the word of God. And then you're dealing with
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Speaker 1: the vast majority of the surplus population of people that
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Speaker 1: don't know anything. about the spirit realm, and this is
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Speaker 1: where I was gonna buttress what I said a minute ago, Dr. Natalie.
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Speaker 1: Sometimes the mistake is not factoring in the spirit realm.
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Speaker 1: We see this with the children that my family has
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Speaker 1: worked with for years in helping them overcome abuse cycles
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Speaker 1: and confessions to the Lord about the things they dream
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Speaker 1: of if they could only forgive their abuser, et cetera.
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Speaker 1: And I said last week, it's often where you see
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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ enter the scene where lasting breakthrough takes place,
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Speaker 1: where normal secularized Western psychological approaches or medications are not
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Speaker 1: ever going to help this person truly overcome. But then
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Speaker 1: what might even be worse, Dr. Natalie, is you have
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Speaker 1: somebody that says, I tell you what, we're going to
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Speaker 1: factor in the spirit realm. I'm an expert in reading
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Speaker 1: tarot cards. I have this little device that if we
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Speaker 1: spin the wheel and we talk at it, it's going
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Speaker 1: to give us the knowledge that we can't see as practitioners.
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Speaker 1: Let's tap into the spirit realm. Now join hands with me.
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Speaker 1: And they begin to practice new agey, dark occultism, things
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Speaker 1: like that. Is this something you've seen in your profession
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Speaker 1: where you've seen the dangerous side of not divorcing yourself
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Speaker 1: from the spirit realm, but bringing in the wrong one?
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Speaker 2: Yes. And it's an alarming one. And one reason, another
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Speaker 2: reason I wrote the book, because we have mental health
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Speaker 2: on one side, church on the other side, and not
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Speaker 2: all of them are always getting it right. But one
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Speaker 2: thing is the spirit realm is something that is being
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Speaker 2: viewed more seriously or taking more seriously in the mental
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Speaker 2: health realm. But unfortunately, in mainstream secular therapy, it is
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Speaker 2: being like really divination is being brought in. And what
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Speaker 2: you're saying about tarot cards, some people watching might think
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Speaker 2: that that's abnormal or no, that's not happening. But I
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Speaker 2: regularly get emails saying, here are some continuing ed classes
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Speaker 2: that you can take that we have to take to
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Speaker 2: maintain our license on how to use tarot cards in therapy,
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Speaker 2: how to use different basically divination measures to help your clients,
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Speaker 2: which to me, it's concerning because... One, they're not evidence-based treatments,
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Speaker 2: and we were trained to use treatments that are evidence-based.
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Speaker 2: But then it's also concerning because if you're someone who's hurting,
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Speaker 2: maybe you're going through grief that makes you feel so lost,
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Speaker 2: and you go into a therapy session with a little
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Speaker 2: bit of hope that maybe this will be the one
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Speaker 2: that can help you move the needle of your healing.
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Speaker 2: And then they bring up a tarot card. Well, even
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Speaker 2: for a believer, you might be so distraught in that moment,
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Speaker 2: you're not realizing what's happening.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And it's something that we need to wake up, and
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Speaker 2: I feel so called to speak out against, that we
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Speaker 2: need to have the godly biblical forms of spirituality being
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Speaker 2: recognized in the unseen realm and how that interacts with
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Speaker 2: people's mental health. We definitely don't need spiritual practices of
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Speaker 2: darkness being brought into the therapy center. Thank you.
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Speaker 3: Well, wouldn't that be an opportunity too for dark forces
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Speaker 3: to come in and make it look like, oh yeah,
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Speaker 3: this is helping so that they go deeper and deeper
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Speaker 3: and deeper down that dark rabbit hole. Maybe it looks
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Speaker 3: like it's helping, but on the other end, they're becoming
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Speaker 3: more and more oppressed and it could end up really
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Speaker 3: hurting them later.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It's in a system of enslavement. So oftentimes
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Speaker 2: people will continue in these patterns of using divination or
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Speaker 2: using new age or occultic practices to For their health,
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Speaker 2: not just mental health, but other health-related problems. They use
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Speaker 2: it because initially it might work. They may see some
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Speaker 2: relief from their symptoms. But what happens is it's a
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Speaker 2: very legalistic system. So it requires more and more and
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Speaker 2: more of the same thing to achieve the same results.
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Speaker 2: So really that is not freedom. That is enslavement. Oh,
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Speaker 2: so good.
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Speaker 1: I'm telling you, this book is so timely and it
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Speaker 1: is so important. And here in just a few minutes,
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Speaker 1: we're going to make sure you know how you can
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Speaker 1: get your copy of it. But Natalie, you are just
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Speaker 1: crushing this conversation. This is so overdue. Have you guys
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Speaker 1: seen these programs on different platforms that you pay monthly
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Speaker 1: to subscribe to various streaming television shows? For purely research purposes,
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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, I watched most of one
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Speaker 1: season of one of these where people, it's like a
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Speaker 1: haunting program. where people are talking about the home that
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Speaker 1: they grew up in being completely haunted, or they stayed
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Speaker 1: somewhere that was haunted or whatever. And here's the deal.
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Speaker 1: I believe, and I'll be on record as having said this,
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Speaker 1: I believe that many of these people are telling you
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Speaker 1: the truth. Now, a Christian might watch that and start
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Speaker 1: picking apart and, well, you know, you just need to
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Speaker 1: close portals and speak the name of Jesus and plead
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Speaker 1: his blood over your home and I'm not mocking the
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Speaker 1: person that has that strategy for their home, but you
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Speaker 1: have to understand that people that grew up with zero
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Speaker 1: Jesus that have no influence and only negative ones and
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Speaker 1: abuse cycles, these are places where demonic activity has taken place.
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Speaker 1: And here's the catch. And this goes with what Jamie
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Speaker 1: is saying. This goes with what Dr. Natalie is saying.
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Speaker 1: One of the things that I took receipt of when
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Speaker 1: I was watching these episodes to see what would become
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Speaker 1: of the victims. Their tears are, I mean, they're flooding
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Speaker 1: down their face. They're literally living nightmares. They're talking about
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Speaker 1: the lady with the white face that haunts me to
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Speaker 1: this day. And I get this foreboding twisting in my
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Speaker 1: gut before she comes back. And she usually comes through
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Speaker 1: my closet when she comes to me at night. And
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Speaker 1: I just know that evil or whatever the thing is
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Speaker 1: going on. Some of them lurked in the basement. Some
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Speaker 1: of them were children. They had night terrors. Watch this.
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Speaker 1: At some point, at about the 22 minute mark, when
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Speaker 1: they're arcing towards the end of the episode, It's almost
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Speaker 1: guaranteed that what's going to happen is somebody is going
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Speaker 1: to come out, some soothsayer, some new age sage burning
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Speaker 1: home cleanser, some spiritual enlightened person. who understands how ghosts,
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Speaker 1: and they are traveling from here to there, and they're misunderstood. Okay,
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Speaker 1: they're going to burn the sage. They're going to do
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Speaker 1: the things. They're going to speak over the home. None
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Speaker 1: of this is biblical. But what happens? The home begins
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Speaker 1: to feel different.
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Speaker 3: It gets better for a while.
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Speaker 1: Sunshine is a little brighter. It gets better for a
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Speaker 1: little while. And either entraps the person to a permanent
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Speaker 1: belief in the new age and this soothsayer and all
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Speaker 1: the shamanism and the cleansing and the things as a
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Speaker 1: total misdirect away from salvation and Christ's message. Or it's
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Speaker 1: like you said, it's very legalistic. This is huge in
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Speaker 1: new age. Let me say something to you. Jesus Christ
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Speaker 1: is the only one of the gods that has given
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Speaker 1: his life for your freedom.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 1: Every other system in the world is based on legal transaction.
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Speaker 1: If I do this thing, I will receive. If I
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Speaker 1: obey this thing, I will receive. If I give more,
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Speaker 1: if I... Do you understand what I'm saying? He's the
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Speaker 1: only one that gives of himself freely and says, you
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Speaker 1: can have true freedom from all of this stuff, including
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Speaker 1: the spiritual oppression, but you have to accept me as
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Speaker 1: your Lord and Savior. Isn't that a great deal?
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: It's a counterfeit. Everything that Lucifer does... He takes, even
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Speaker 1: when Jamie mentioned, or you mentioned that somebody's symptoms might
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Speaker 1: even sort of be relieved. I even believe that God's medicine,
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Speaker 1: his psychology, his mental wellness gets deranged and hijacked and
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Speaker 1: stolen like everything by Lucifer. Someone that begins to meditate,
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Speaker 1: even though not on God, might be releasing melatonin, serotonin,
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Speaker 1: different chemistries. Their blood pressure begins to decrease. Their anxiety
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Speaker 1: begins to lift. They don't even know that they're borrowing
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Speaker 1: from God's medicine when they give Lucifer credit for it. Anyway,
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Speaker 1: this is a serious stump. And now it's like, get
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Speaker 1: back to Natalie. Want to hear Natalie talk?
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Speaker 2: It's true.
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Speaker 1: You've said discovering the divine counsel worldview completely changed the
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Speaker 1: way that you saw mental health and spiritual warfare. What
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Speaker 1: is it that you discovered?
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Speaker 2: So I'm someone who loves scripture. I read it regularly
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Speaker 2: in my life. It's something I put at the forefront
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Speaker 2: of who I am, what I believe. And I think
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Speaker 2: understanding it is so important. But what the Divine Council
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Speaker 2: worldview really did for me was give me a framework
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Speaker 2: for understanding passages that I had read over and over before,
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Speaker 2: but never quite connected to my work and to what
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Speaker 2: people were really battling. And the work of Dr. Michael Heiser,
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Speaker 2: the late, great was really significant for me in that
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Speaker 2: and his book, The Unseen Realm, because it just made
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Speaker 2: me understand where the battle was originating from. And in
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Speaker 2: the book, I talk about that a lot, about the
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Speaker 2: rebellions of Genesis 3, 6, and 11, and how really
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Speaker 2: I feel like God showed me that's where the beginning
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Speaker 2: of all mental health problems started. And so you can
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Speaker 2: tie those back based off of the results of those
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Speaker 2: rebellions and how that looks in mental health and the
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Speaker 2: problems that people struggle with today.
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Speaker 1: When you talk about the struggle that people are having today,
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Speaker 1: it is catastrophic. It is the real pandemic. Prescription drugs
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Speaker 1: are through the sky. They're being thrown at everybody with everything, sadness, despair, anxiety,
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Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts. When you say that you believe the battle
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Speaker 1: that we're experiencing today actually begins in Genesis, what happened
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Speaker 1: there that most Christians might completely overlook?
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Speaker 2: Well, I'll give you an example of a mental health
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Speaker 2: problem that I think originated in Genesis 3, and that's suicide.
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Speaker 2: So one of the things people overlook is that when
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Speaker 2: you have suicidal thoughts or ideation is what we call
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Speaker 2: it in the clinical community, when you meet with someone
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Speaker 2: who battles that, they almost always say, I heard a
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Speaker 2: voice or I had a voice, felt something outside of
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Speaker 2: me said, you need to kill yourself. The world would
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Speaker 2: be better without you. And so when I go back
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Speaker 2: to Genesis 3, who was the accuser there? Who was
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Speaker 2: the one who was telling Eve and Adam that? Did
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Speaker 2: God really say that? There was this outside influence that
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Speaker 2: resulted in their death. And so it's like God showed
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Speaker 2: me there's an outside influence that's telling someone to kill themselves.
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Speaker 2: And that originated there. And it's not coming from them.
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Speaker 2: So where the healing part comes in is telling that person,
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Speaker 2: that voice is actually not from you. But that's what
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Speaker 2: the normal mental health community says. It's a thought that
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Speaker 2: you have. It's within you. Well, if you think that
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Speaker 2: that's coming from within you, it's hard to battle that.
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Speaker 2: But if you realize there's a thought coming from outside
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Speaker 2: of me, from the unseen realm, that's a spiritual force
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Speaker 2: of darkness, when I can tell someone that as a clinician,
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Speaker 2: I believe you, and that's not from you. That's coming
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Speaker 2: from the enemies of God. They're attacking who you are
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Speaker 2: and your identity, and they don't want you to be
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Speaker 2: an imager of God anymore. That's a different conversation, and
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Speaker 2: it leads to healing. Because then someone's like, oh, I
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Speaker 2: can fight against something that's not me. That's different.
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Speaker 1: So I've never talked about this on any of the shows,
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Speaker 1: but I'll share this because we're doing this, and I
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Speaker 1: just feel like the Lord would have me share this
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Speaker 1: for someone out there maybe watching this program. But I
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Speaker 1: have not been immune to some of these thoughts, some
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Speaker 1: of these very gravitous, very heavy. Years and years ago,
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Speaker 1: before I knew that I had MTHFR, which is a
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Speaker 1: genetic SNP that I've talked about in programs years ago,
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Speaker 1: and my neurological health is all over the place, I
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Speaker 1: was heavily drinking. This is back in 2007, 8, 9.
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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm drinking heavily. to just not feel a
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Speaker 1: bunch of stuff. And this is son of the great Tom.
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Speaker 1: My father was unaware of a lot of this and
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Speaker 1: was praying for me. And he was the greatest dad ever.
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Speaker 1: And by the way, I am evidence that you can
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Speaker 1: have wonderful parents and deal with things like depression, anxiety,
15:43
Speaker 1: and so forth. Some of it for me was chemistry,
15:45
Speaker 1: but then I made it much worse by not knowing
15:48
Speaker 1: that by the heavy drinking, I was shooting my liver,
15:50
Speaker 1: which already couldn't process B12. And so here's the thing.
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Speaker 1: This is the part I wanted to share that somebody
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Speaker 1: out there might latch onto. And this might be a
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Speaker 1: lifeline for you. Some people assume that depression is always
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Speaker 1: just these thoughts of I'm tired. I don't have any value.
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Speaker 1: I have nothing to look forward to. I have no joy.
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Speaker 1: I don't experience things. I'm going to unalive myself. I
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Speaker 1: started to wonder if my family wouldn't be better off
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Speaker 1: without me. And those were the thoughts that I started
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Speaker 1: grappling with because it's like, I don't want to go.
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Speaker 1: I don't want to go. I want to look forward
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Speaker 1: to things. I have a dream someday, but my family,
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Speaker 1: you know, I can't, I can't make enough money to
16:31
Speaker 1: take care of them. I can't build a dream. I
16:33
Speaker 1: can't move forward in the things that I, you know,
16:36
Speaker 1: and then of course I'm a hundred pounds heavier and
16:38
Speaker 1: my face looks like a bowling pin with a soul
16:40
Speaker 1: patch and I'm drinking beer. And you start to believe,
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Speaker 1: and the reason I'm sharing this is because again, son
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Speaker 1: of Tom and Nita, self-professed Christian, But I'm dealing with
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Speaker 1: things like I don't want to admit addiction. I'm a
16:52
Speaker 1: functioning alcoholic, essentially. And so what I'm saying is you
16:55
Speaker 1: start to think that your family would be better off
16:58
Speaker 1: with a different provider. Your kids would be better off
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Speaker 1: with a more spiritual dad. You start to feel like
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Speaker 1: a counterfeit and a fraud. And all these things start
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Speaker 1: battering you down. So here I am, self-evidenced. Thank the
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Speaker 1: Lord Jesus for people like Dr. Josh Vance. who said,
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Speaker 1: you don't have to live like this. And he started
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Speaker 1: working with me to get my liver back and so
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Speaker 1: that I can get some vitamin B in there. And
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Speaker 1: now life is much different from the way that it was.
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Speaker 1: But if that resonates with you, I don't care whose
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Speaker 1: son or daughter you are. I don't care what empire
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Speaker 1: you're attached to. I don't care, man, what plans God
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Speaker 1: has for you. If you're not taking your problems to
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Speaker 1: the Lord, and I think that's where I did, but
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Speaker 1: in this very toxic way, Dr. Natalie, and I don't
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Speaker 1: know if you want to deal with this, But I
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Speaker 1: would almost feel a guilt and a shame when I
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Speaker 1: went to the Lord, like he took receipt of all
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Speaker 1: the things that I was, he was disappointed in me.
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Speaker 1: And so I go before him already quoting all the
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Speaker 1: scriptures that I as a son of God should know.
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Speaker 1: And that just makes me feel even less capable and
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Speaker 1: even more defeated. Is this resonating or is this just
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Speaker 1: Joe Horn falling apart during a TV show? Does this
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Speaker 1: make sense?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, like you can know all of the scriptures, you
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Speaker 1: can know the things. Man, I wish that 20 years
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Speaker 1: beforehand I had met a doctor, Natalie Atwell. I wish
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Speaker 1: with all my heart I had, because my doctors at
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Speaker 1: the time, you know, let's just medicate him again was
18:19
Speaker 1: the strategy. And of course, everybody that watches, you know,
18:22
Speaker 1: this program or knows my ministerial career, they know that
18:24
Speaker 1: half my colon was cut out. I was just a
18:26
Speaker 1: guinea pig for medications and tests and surgeries and all
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Speaker 1: made everything so much worse. But I wish, I wish
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Speaker 1: back in 2004, Somebody had said, Joe, read this. I
18:38
Speaker 1: know you don't like reading stuff because that requires becoming smarter,
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Speaker 1: but you've got to read this book. My wife would
18:43
Speaker 1: have read it. I don't know that I would have listened.
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Speaker 1: She was trying to help me, but I called her
18:48
Speaker 1: a snake oil salesman and I just kept drinking beer
18:50
Speaker 1: and falling apart. You were talking about being created in
18:54
Speaker 1: the image of God. I don't know if any part
18:56
Speaker 1: of what I just shared is something you see. I
18:58
Speaker 1: don't know if there's some part of it you want
19:00
Speaker 1: to respond to. You have my permission to say whatever
19:02
Speaker 1: you want. But in your opinion... Why would human beings
19:05
Speaker 1: created in the image of God become a target in
19:07
Speaker 1: this larger spiritual conflict? And do you see others that
19:10
Speaker 1: almost self-berate before they even get to the Lord? That's
19:14
Speaker 1: not God. God doesn't condemn and make you feel guilty
19:18
Speaker 1: and shameful and like you're unworthy to approach him. And
19:22
Speaker 1: my parents never raised me to feel that way. This
19:25
Speaker 1: is spiritual. This is chemical. Is this making sense?
19:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked about earlier, not everything is a demon
19:31
Speaker 2: or not everything is spiritual darkness, but We also have
19:34
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that some things are. And I think when
19:37
Speaker 2: you in your situation going in and thinking, I have
19:40
Speaker 2: to fix this with the Lord is also allow the
19:42
Speaker 2: enemy instead of giving it to the Lord. There's a difference.
19:45
Speaker 2: There's a distinction there that matters. And part of that
19:48
Speaker 2: is understanding that it was probably. the lies of the
19:51
Speaker 2: enemy that were telling you, you're not enough for your family.
19:53
Speaker 2: You need more medication. You need more alcohol to numb,
19:57
Speaker 2: to escape. Because that is a huge lie that the
20:00
Speaker 2: enemy tells in relation to mental illnesses. You need to escape.
20:05
Speaker 2: When God says... In reality, come to me. I can
20:08
Speaker 2: heal it. Just be. Come as you are. There's a
20:11
Speaker 2: part of this come as you are that is, to me,
20:14
Speaker 2: I see it in mental health as it's committing to
20:17
Speaker 2: reality at all costs. That's one of my favorite definitions.
20:19
Speaker 2: I didn't make that up, so I don't want to
20:21
Speaker 2: take credit for that. But where that comes into play
20:24
Speaker 2: with the image of God is that the image of
20:26
Speaker 2: God is a big deal. It is a special status
20:30
Speaker 2: that animals weren't given. And we love our animals. I
20:33
Speaker 2: love animals. But we were given this status to be
20:36
Speaker 2: able to be God's representatives on earth. And the enemies
20:39
Speaker 2: of God want to attack that. And it doesn't always
20:43
Speaker 2: look like what you think it might in terms of attack.
20:47
Speaker 2: It looks like identity. I'm going to attack your identity.
20:49
Speaker 2: I'm going to attack your worship. I'm going to attack
20:52
Speaker 2: your relationship with God. Because when you feel depressed, you
20:55
Speaker 2: feel like I can't get up in the morning. I
20:57
Speaker 2: can't be a good father. That's a part of how
21:00
Speaker 2: you relate with the Lord, how you relate with other people.
21:02
Speaker 2: And so that's how enemy likes to attack. And I
21:05
Speaker 2: think that in my treatment, that's one of the most
21:07
Speaker 2: important things that I do with people is just simply
21:10
Speaker 2: explain to them what being a human means. When I
21:14
Speaker 2: started doing this work and researching to start writing the book,
21:17
Speaker 2: I put a post out and just asked people, what
21:19
Speaker 2: does it mean to be a human? And almost everybody
21:22
Speaker 2: got it wrong, even believers. And that's not okay. People
21:27
Speaker 2: say it means to have emotions and feelings and all
21:29
Speaker 2: those things. Well, that's not true. Actually, what it means
21:32
Speaker 2: is to be an image bearer of the Most High God.
21:36
Speaker 2: And you have to understand that to understand what the
21:39
Speaker 2: enemy is trying to attack.
21:47
Speaker 1: I think my life was evidence of this for a
21:50
Speaker 1: long time. But when scripture talks about rulers, powers, and
21:53
Speaker 1: spiritual forces of evil, What might that look like in
21:57
Speaker 1: someone's everyday life? For people that didn't identify at all
22:00
Speaker 1: with my horror show but might be watching this program,
22:03
Speaker 1: what other ways might that manifest in maybe less obvious ways?
22:07
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people think that it has
22:08
Speaker 2: to look like a horror show. But in my experience,
22:11
Speaker 2: spiritual warfare can look remarkably ordinary.
22:14
Speaker 1: Okay.
22:15
Speaker 2: It can look like accusation. It can look like temptation.
22:19
Speaker 2: It can look like fear. It can look like lies
22:22
Speaker 2: about your identity that we mentioned or destructive, harmful belief systems.
22:27
Speaker 2: It can look like conflict between you and a loved
22:30
Speaker 2: one that you just think it came out of nowhere.
22:32
Speaker 2: But I think that's something that is important to note,
22:35
Speaker 2: that it can look remarkably ordinary. And I think that's
22:39
Speaker 2: the intentional part of the enemy's plan. Because then you're
22:42
Speaker 2: not thinking it could be in the unseen realm. If
22:46
Speaker 2: it was always like a horror story, then you would think, oh,
22:49
Speaker 2: you would automatically want to go to the spiritual realm.
22:52
Speaker 2: But when it doesn't, when it looks like temptation that
22:55
Speaker 2: you're experiencing or accusations or lies or depressive feelings, then
23:00
Speaker 2: you don't often think about the spiritual realm in those aspects.
23:05
Speaker 1: Or you'll hear Christians say, well, I'm not possessed. So
23:08
Speaker 1: that's another thing. Talk to us just briefly, and then
23:10
Speaker 1: I'm going to make sure you know how you can
23:12
Speaker 1: get your copy of this incredible book. But when somebody's
23:16
Speaker 1: dealing with a spiritual influence, that's not the same thing,
23:20
Speaker 1: in your view, as being possessed, right?
23:22
Speaker 2: So people come to me often as believers thinking that
23:25
Speaker 2: you can't be spiritually oppressed. And so I like to
23:27
Speaker 2: use the word influenced. I like to say, let's not
23:31
Speaker 2: get into the argument of oppression, possession, demonization, which is
23:34
Speaker 2: actually the Greek word in the New Testament, right? But
23:37
Speaker 2: let's talk about spiritual influence and the dark forces, the
23:41
Speaker 2: unseen realm. And usually that resonates with people a little
23:44
Speaker 2: bit more. Now, I do believe in possession. Don't get
23:47
Speaker 2: me wrong. And I have had some of those situations
23:49
Speaker 2: that have come into my therapy office, which is also
23:52
Speaker 2: an important thing that this book talks about, because sometimes
23:56
Speaker 2: you're not looking for that as a therapist. You're looking
23:59
Speaker 2: for something else. So we do need to acknowledge that.
24:01
Speaker 2: But I think it's really important to note the importance
24:04
Speaker 2: of discernment. And that's one of the things that I
24:06
Speaker 2: feel like God has shown me using the unseen realm,
24:09
Speaker 2: using Dr. Michael Hauser's work and my clinical training to
24:12
Speaker 2: help people learn how to discern problems a little bit better.
24:23
Speaker 2: One of the most important things a therapist or anyone
24:26
Speaker 2: dealing with someone who's struggling with mental health is to
24:29
Speaker 2: not just ask what is happening to the person, but
24:32
Speaker 2: is how do we respond appropriately to what is happening
24:35
Speaker 2: to them?
24:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I want you to know
24:43
Speaker 1: that right now you can get Dr. Natalie Atwell's powerful
24:46
Speaker 1: new book, Humanity Under Siege, The Unseen Realm and the
24:49
Speaker 1: Spiritual War Against the Mind at edensessentials.com by itself for
24:54
Speaker 1: only $ 24. 95 plus shipping and handling. Or you can take
24:58
Speaker 1: advantage of a very special three-book package we've put together
25:01
Speaker 1: that includes Dr. Thomas Horne, the early years exploring spiritual warfare,
25:06
Speaker 1: demonic strongholds, and the unseen battle all around us. Plus
25:10
Speaker 1: his best-selling book, Summoning the Demon, a prophetic investigation into
25:15
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, transhumanism, and the biblical image of the beast.
25:19
Speaker 1: So you can help support this program when you purchase
25:22
Speaker 1: Humanity Under Siege all by itself for only $ 24. 95 plus
25:26
Speaker 1: shipping and handling, or get all three books right now
25:29
Speaker 1: for just $ 39. 95 plus shipping and handling at edensessentials.com. You
25:35
Speaker 1: can scan the QR code on your screen right now
25:37
Speaker 1: to take advantage of this special opportunity right now.
25:46
Speaker 3: I have a question as a Christian, because there are
25:48
Speaker 3: things that we know we shouldn't do as Christians, right?
25:50
Speaker 3: We probably shouldn't contact a psychic. We shouldn't do tarot
25:54
Speaker 3: cards or Ouija boards. Like we know that, but are
25:56
Speaker 3: there things that you're aware of that maybe we don't
25:59
Speaker 3: think about that could be causing this influence to come
26:02
Speaker 3: into our life? Like we're... We don't want to open
26:04
Speaker 3: a big portal, but maybe we are unknowingly.
26:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything outside of scripture. But I'm so glad you
26:09
Speaker 2: brought that up because you would maybe be shocked at
26:12
Speaker 2: the believers who go to church every Sunday or are
26:15
Speaker 2: part of a faith community who say, hey, someone encouraged
26:19
Speaker 2: me to get a crystal that that would help the
26:21
Speaker 2: energy in my marriage. And it's just a little subtle thing.
26:24
Speaker 2: They have no idea. And thank God, one of my
26:27
Speaker 2: therapists who does this work with me, she's like, She
26:30
Speaker 2: was seeing her telehealth one day, and the amazing thing
26:32
Speaker 2: was she was able to help her watch her walk
26:35
Speaker 2: that crystal out to the trash can and leave it there,
26:39
Speaker 2: which was amazing because people just simply don't know. Or
26:42
Speaker 2: even things like, and this might be a tough thing
26:45
Speaker 2: to mention, but the Enneagram, that actually has very occultic
26:48
Speaker 2: dark roots. And, you know, there's churches doing Bible studies
26:52
Speaker 2: on it, and they're using it to help their ministries.
26:56
Speaker 2: And I think you need to understand the dark roots
26:58
Speaker 2: of these things. And where I have seen that one
27:01
Speaker 2: specific thing hurt people is in the area of identity.
27:05
Speaker 2: If you say, I'm an Enneagram 7, then you hold
27:08
Speaker 2: to that one thing. When that limits our Creator, He
27:12
Speaker 2: did not create you like anyone else in the world.
27:14
Speaker 2: So it's okay to have sometimes doubts. career assessments and
27:18
Speaker 2: assessments to help us understand patterns within people. But when
27:21
Speaker 2: you latch on to something like an identity as an
27:25
Speaker 2: Enneagram number or something like that, it can really harm you.
27:28
Speaker 2: It makes you make excuses for bad behaviors. That's just
27:32
Speaker 2: one example that can seem very subtle, but I believe
27:37
Speaker 2: it's rooted in spiritual darkness.
27:38
Speaker 1: Yeah.
27:38
Speaker 3: In my training, we learned about crystals. And at first,
27:42
Speaker 3: you know, I kind of was like, okay, that doesn't
27:44
Speaker 3: sound like something I should go into as a Christian.
27:48
Speaker 3: But then the brain starts going, you're like, well, God
27:52
Speaker 3: made these elements on earth and maybe there is something
27:55
Speaker 3: there we're not aware of. So it's so easy. Well,
27:58
Speaker 3: even angel boards. What about angel boards? So things can
28:02
Speaker 3: be repackaged into sounding like, oh, this is okay, right?
28:07
Speaker 1: This is fine.
28:09
Speaker 3: Have you encountered anything like that?
28:11
Speaker 1: This is not a demon. This is the Archangel Gabriel.
28:14
Speaker 2: Sure. I actually interviewed someone from my practice one time,
28:17
Speaker 2: and she talked about using hallelujah cards. And they were
28:21
Speaker 2: basically like her version of a Christian tarot card. And
28:23
Speaker 2: I was like, well, you have to be really careful.
28:26
Speaker 2: I think the key is biblical discernment. I think we
28:29
Speaker 2: really have to go to what scripture says. And we
28:32
Speaker 2: don't need all these extra things when God shows us
28:37
Speaker 2: how we can actually find good biblical healing. And it
28:41
Speaker 2: doesn't involve this legalistic system that the devil would want
28:44
Speaker 2: you to implement. But I do agree. There's lots of
28:46
Speaker 2: things that come packaged in a different way. But I
28:49
Speaker 2: also do agree that intent matters. But our intent a
28:53
Speaker 2: lot of times is like, I just want to get
28:55
Speaker 2: rid of this problem at all costs and not have
28:57
Speaker 2: to do work that maybe the Lord would want you
29:00
Speaker 2: to do.
29:01
Speaker 1: God is a very gracious God. He's very forgiving. He's
29:04
Speaker 1: very long-suffering. He's very patient. but he has laws. Do
29:08
Speaker 1: you remember last week when I said ignorance is no
29:10
Speaker 1: obfuscation of the law? You might be living on extended grace,
29:13
Speaker 1: but he's petitioning you. He's petitioning you. And at some point, consequences,
29:20
Speaker 1: maybe he may step back and allow the consequences to
29:23
Speaker 1: start shaping your experience so that you're drawn to him
29:26
Speaker 1: and maybe a new path, a new approach. Does that
29:29
Speaker 1: make sense?
29:29
Speaker 2: Makes sense.
29:30
Speaker 1: In the war for the mind, What would you say
29:32
Speaker 1: to our viewers about what changes once we understand that
29:36
Speaker 1: Christ has already defeated the enemy?
29:39
Speaker 2: I love that question because the Christian story doesn't end
29:43
Speaker 2: with there's an enemy. it ends with Christ has already
29:47
Speaker 2: won the victory. And we have to understand that our
29:49
Speaker 2: identity is rooted in Christ. He has authority over the
29:53
Speaker 2: forces of darkness. And we have to partner with him
29:57
Speaker 2: in having that authority to be able to fight against
30:02
Speaker 2: the enemies of God.
30:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he's a gentleman. You have to invite him
30:06
Speaker 3: into your life in that way to help you fight
30:09
Speaker 3: these battles. If you don't ever come to him and
30:11
Speaker 3: lay it at his feet, He's a gentleman. He's not
30:13
Speaker 3: going to go maybe where he's not welcome.
30:16
Speaker 1: Right.
30:16
Speaker 2: The goal is really to become so grounded in the
30:19
Speaker 2: truth that the darkness doesn't define you and it doesn't
30:23
Speaker 2: get to dictate your choices, your feelings, your thoughts, all
30:26
Speaker 2: those things. And that takes continual practice to be rooted
30:30
Speaker 2: in truth.
30:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good.
30:37
Speaker 1: For a lot of you watching at home, these programs
30:39
Speaker 1: probably aren't going to be enough. So one more time, Dr.
30:42
Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell, tell them where your website is. Tell them
30:44
Speaker 1: how they can learn more about what you're doing in ministry.
30:47
Speaker 2: I would love to interact with your viewers. Mental Warrior
30:50
Speaker 2: Consulting is where you can find me, how to contact me,
30:53
Speaker 2: interact with the work that I've done. And I would
30:55
Speaker 2: love to know if there's more that I can do
30:57
Speaker 2: to help people.
31:03
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we're all out of time, but we will have Dr.
31:05
Speaker 1: Natalie Atwell back here in the Life TV Now studio
31:08
Speaker 1: next week. We will continue right where we've left off.
31:11
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Artis Horn. Keep your eyes on the prize,
31:13
Speaker 1: which is Jesus Christ. We'll be back.