Latest / Pine Street Pod / “Soil and Soul: On Earth, Food, and What We're Hungry For” Week Three - To Go

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“Soil and Soul: On Earth, Food, and What We're Hungry For” Week Three - To Go · Pine Street Pod

• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Pine Street Pod, a podcast from Pine Street Church in Boulder, Colorado.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: We're a spiritual community reimagining church and faith for the common good.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: These messages come from our Sunday gatherings, and wherever you're listening from, we're glad you're here.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Learn more and connect with us at Pine Streetchurch.net.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to follow or subscribe for new weekly episodes.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And now, here's this week's message.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, good morning, everybody.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: Grace and peace, 100,000 welcomes.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're our guest today, we're in the middle of a series this fall uh called Soil and Soul on Earth, Food, and What We Are Hungry For.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: And today we're gonna level up the credibility of this series by having people here who know what they're talking about, who are not just theology nerds.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, maybe there's a little bit a bit of that too.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but uh this morning, as we step into week three, uh, instead of a sermon today, we're gonna do what we've begun calling a chancel conversation.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So a panel discussion.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Sean and Lee and Emma, I'm just gonna go ahead and ask this illustrious crew if you would come on up with me here uh as I do a little intro.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh these folks are doing what I believe is pretty miraculous work.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and when I say miraculous, I love to define that in the way that Wendell Berry uh defines it, the late great farmer and activist and poet and essayist.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Wendell Berry writes, Whoever really has considered the lilies of the field or the birds of the air and pondered the improbability of their existence in this warm world within the cold and empty stellar distances will hardly balk at the turning of water into wine, which was, after all, a very small miracle.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: This water to wine stuff.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: We forget the greater and still continuing miracle by which water with soil and sunlight is turned into grace.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's funny how much of the Bible, as our Celtic Christian household would say, the Bible is an outdoor book.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's something different about reading the Bible outdoors, and I think some of that comes from how the gospel story, so much of what we read in the gospels, is outside.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you think about fields, hillsides, uh, beside wells, beside shorelines, and you think about how many gospel stories involve food.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the central practices of the Christian church over time is what?
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Communion.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: That Jesus didn't leave us with a doctrinal statement or something to believe in with our heads, Jesus left us with bread and cups.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty profound.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you think about the gospels that are centered on the table, eating, a wedding feast, a prodigal son welcomed home to a fatty calf, the multiplication of loaves and fishes that we talked about last week, the sense of abundance versus scarcity, the Lord's prayer, give us this day our daily bread.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Communion and community are everywhere in the gospels.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: So uh today you've already heard from Sean Kohler with Boulder Food Rescue, and uh I'm honored to welcome Leah Cousin, the owner and the operator of uh Backyard Roots, which is an urban farm here in Boulder.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and Emma Leeds by Lucky, uh, who happens to be, I think, a theologian, although apparently she thinks she's not a very good one.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's simply untrue.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she's a farmer, she's written this book, this one.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: I know all of you have this already, but if you don't, go out and get it.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's Decomposing Holy Ground, the theological compost for shifting worlds.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: So uh welcome all three of you.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I want to start with Sean again.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: We've uh heard a little bit about uh Boulder Food Rescue, but I want to maybe ask some questions that are a little more explicit so that people can have some takeaways today.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so my first question is because many people think of food assistance as charity, right?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: We think of boxes that are handed to people in need, maybe the food bank line Sean was mentioning.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I know that our church and churches everywhere do food drives, which are great, but uh BFR works differently.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: They move food by bicycle, as we've just seen, through community members and distributed to neighborhoods.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, Sean, my question for you is what is the difference between that model uh and the traditional food charity model, and why does that difference matter?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: The difference between BFR's model and the traditional model.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, sorry.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: But um, yeah, uh kind of the the key differences as you all were able to see in the video is one of the biggest ones is perishable foods.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Since we are a just-in-time food rescue, we are able to pick up these uh perishable vegetables, fruits that are like are still fit for human consumption, but their shelf life is uh dwindling.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so we are able to get those to people's homes within like an hour, which is the same time it would take you to get your groceries home.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a normal system, kind of a more traditional food pantry system, the food is picked up, collected, brought to a food bank where then it's evenly distributed out amongst the food pantries, and that process can take up to a week or two.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so that process really is not suited for perishable or for any perishables.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I was talking about that agency of the communities to set up what they want, they let us know what foods they do and don't want.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: Our volunteers who get used to their shift and keep checking in with the community will start to know what foods that community does and does not want, so it can be much more catered to them.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And an important thing that I do think is worth noting really quick before we move on too much is despite older food rescue operating in a different system than our kind of food pantries, I don't want to diminish the work that people like community food share, Sister Carmen and Effa do in this community.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Most of our participants talk about going to these food banks and food pantries as well.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's through the collaboration of kind of all of these entities that we're that individuals are able to pick up canned goods and dry goods from community food share, add some produce from Boulder Food Rescue, and turn it into like a truly balanced meal.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, those are kind of the two big differences.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Sean.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna move to Leah now.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um Leah practices organic and regenerative farming in her urban backyard.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so for someone, Leah, who's not familiar, what does regenerative mean?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: And why did you choose that approach over kind of conventional growing?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so sure thing.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um thanks for asking because I feel like these terms organic, sustainable, green, compostable, I mean, the list goes on.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: These are terms that are thrown out a lot, and people don't really have a context for what they mean.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll do my best to try to explain regenerative to my experience.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: But so regenerative growing, regenerative agriculture is kind of a philosophy of farming, ranching, land stewardship that is that nourishes the soil, the people, and the earth.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a recognition that we're all connected, we all have a part to play in this living ecosystem, kind of with the soil, the soil at the center.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it definitely goes to say that this is not new.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's rooted in Indigenous wisdom and has been practiced for thousands of years.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's just in the past kind of couple of decades that um we've come to define what it means.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it just um I always want to give credit to that this is not new and that you know our Indigenous communities have been doing this.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um so, kind of unlike conventional farming, it focuses on the cyclical nature of growth and vegetables and animals rather than a linear food chain.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: So rather than farmer commodity sales, it focuses on soil to the uh to the crop, to the community, um, and how we put that back into the soil over and over and over again.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then I would I would also add that it seeks to reimagine our food economies, so how we distribute food locally, which is so great while you, you know, it's kind of the basis of what Sean has been talking about, um, and how we get it from the farmer directly to our community and how we think about what it actually takes to the costs it takes to produce that food.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um sadly, I can't charge$16 for a bunch of kale, but that's you know kind of what it costs to produce it.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um so how we can reimagine those economies to support our farmers and those in the community who are eating who are eating the food.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then why I chose this method.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I was trained in this method.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: I have learned from farmers in Boulder County for the past um 20 years in this method, and just even more specifically in the last five years with backyard roots, um chose to grow regeneratively just because I want to leave the land in a better, healthier spot than what I found it.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um so thinking of land stewardship rather than land ownership, and then also you won't taste any better food than regeneratively grown food.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's beautiful, it's tasty, um, and it's very nutrient dense.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then it also practicing in a small space, it gives a really tangible way to see the effects of regenerative growing.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: Reproduce, um, it's under about a quarter of an acre, and we can feed about 15 to 20 families a week.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: So regenerative ag is highly um uh it yields a lot um in in very small spaces.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of why we chose to go that route.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, thanks, Leah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And for those of you who were not here for our opening art reception in the gallery a couple of weeks ago, uh Leah and Backyard Roots provided farm to table vegetables for that opening event with uh our gallery uh back there and uh with Anton's work.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I uh I have to say I'm not really a beet lover.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't really like beet.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: No offense to those of you who are beet fans or anything like that, but I had beet hummus that Leah made, and it is the best hummus I've ever had.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, thanks Leah for that for broadening horizons.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I want to move to Emma now and uh her book, I'm totally embarrassing you, aren't I?
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Holiness up all the time.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Decomposing, Holy Ground.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: This book, um the title, Decomposing, uses uh that word in two directions, I think, at once.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so my question is if our old assumptions about land and belonging uh is what is being broken down, what do you hope grows up through that compost?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um I really am so compelled by compost.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think that's why it made its way into the title of the book.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um but what I love about compost is it's kind of like a microcosm and a macrocosm.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: It it mirrors, it tells us what's going on socially, globally, and also at a very intimate cellular level, what's happening inside of our bodies.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um and what compost teaches me is that um I'm not an individual, I'm part of, to kind of gesture at Donna Hare away, this multi-species muddle that involves a lot of different beings living and dying together, eating one another and being eaten, which is um a little bit of a uh, yeah, I think terrifying um realization when you really start to think about it.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I guess what it breaks down for me about my relationship to land is the idea that land is something static, that's something stable that can be owned.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um property is really the imposition, and what land and soil is doing is a lot more dynamic than that.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_04: Um what it breaks down for me about our senses of belonging is again that kind of um fiction of individuality that we all kind of walk around with.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um we are you know only here and alive because of the microscopic organisms that do their part in the soil to feed us.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um and we're only here for a little bit of time, and we're also on our way to becoming those microscopic organisms.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think that really breaks down for me these senses of human uh superiority, um, and uh puts me back kind of in a proper place, um, you know, humbled with the humus, um, so to speak.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, humus and human.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we talked about this being earth creatures a couple of weeks ago and this idea that we are all mud and spark, that we're earthbound, that we're spirit-led.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so thank you for that theological framing, too, the humus or the bee, hummus, whatever you prefer.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I want to stick with Emma for just a second because uh the word stewardship shows up for a lot of us when we think about uh environmental stewardship and climate care.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so in almost every church conversation, you hear there are buzzwords right in the church, one of them is stewardship.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Emma, you have pushed back on that word a little bit.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what do you think the church needs to evaluate about their relationship with stewardship?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I did do that.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you know, Leah just used the same word in a really positive light.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so I want to recognize that, recognize that stewardship, I think also for a lot of Indigenous thinkers, it's really important framing.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but for me, where I'm at, I felt like stewardship like connoted a little bit too much.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I guess like maybe twisted forms of stewardship that have more to do with stewarding financial resources.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, or I guess maybe a different way to say it is that I felt like I needed to learn a little bit more what it meant to be a steward.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like I wasn't really equipped.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um I don't I think that a lot of us, you know, are like conditioned in this culture where stewarding natural resources has to do with um increasing property values, um, you know, increasing value under capitalism and growing resources.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: And um, you know, in an economy of growth, I think we have to be kind of careful about what kind of growth we're after.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um I was also coming out of a program on environmental um economics and kind of learning about um this movement to price ecosystem services and a lot of language in there around um the natural world as a pool of resources, um, which I think is a really compelling um framing under capitalism.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: Again, it makes sense to a lot of us, but I think it's also um a little bit um of a simplification of what's uh really going on.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um so kind of pricing ecosystem services makes us like kind of think in terms of like calculation, like what is the world worth to us in terms of what it can provide us, the kinds of money and value that it can yield in our economies.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: And um I think you know a different form of stewardship is just something that I kind of I had to learn.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_04: Um I didn't grow up as a farmer, I didn't um grow up knowing how to care for the the earth.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I think that it's something that maybe first let's learn how to be good stewards.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, let's define for ourselves what stewardship means and can look like.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think there's a lot of questions in there, it's not so simple.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Excellent.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Emma.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh back to Leah for a second, a very kind of practical question because uh you are an educator, you have groups that come and uh learn from you at your urban farm.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: What is a question in your workshops uh that most often surprises you from folks?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um I would say that it doesn't, the actual question doesn't surprise me, but the amount of times that I get the question, this is what surprises me.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um people are often very intimidated.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: They're often very overwhelmed, and they often have imposter syndrome when it comes to caring for land, growing vegetables, um trying to make a difference.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: So um they they don't know where to start.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_03: The overwhelm of our climate problems is is high.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_03: So what I love to do in my workshops and education is empower people to know that any little bit helps and is contributing to the overall change.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: So whether that's growing in pots on your porch, um, whether that's starting seeds in your garage, um, really anything can contribute to change if we all do it together.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: I know that might sound cheesy, but um that's what I like to empower.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: Cool.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, this is a question for all of you as we head to a close.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, where is the most hopeful thing happening in your work right now that you would love for people to know about it who just otherwise would not know about it?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: What's the most hopeful thing you're finding in your work?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can get started, but uh super quick before I answer this question, uh Leah mentioned something that's just been blowing my mind, and I feel like I need to add on to it a little bit of I have heard a rule of thumb that it takes around a half acre to feed a family for a year under traditional agricultural practices.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that you're getting 14 to 15 families off of a quarter acre is is just insane.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's blowing my mind when I heard that.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I just needed to lift that up a little bit more.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: But as far as what's giving me the most hope right now in my work would be the amount of the best way to say this, I guess like collaboration and almost like this missile of ego that I'm studying across organizations, across individuals.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: There, I've been seeing a lot of conversations and efforts happening across different nonprofits recognizing it's like we can't fix this on our own.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: We need to partner with people to fix our world.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to partner with people who are outside of our direct industry because the problems we face are intersectional, so we should start working intersectionally.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the amount that I'm seeing a lot of people just kind of have that realization now is giving me a lot of inspiration.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Shaw.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I guess what has brought me most hope.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: So we do farm dinners over um the course of the growing season, and they're amazing events, and um, when people gather around the table and to see their excitement and passion and support of what we do is is super hopeful.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: To get notes or emails afterwards saying that that night the experience was almost ancestral to them is brings me um a lot of hope.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I would have to echo what Sean said: people working together, the resources that we have in Boulder County for infrastructure, for reimagining economies, um, for grants, things like that, um, we are lucky to have those resources.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'm always gonna say that farmers uh give me hope.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, part of the impetus in in writing the book was um I was learning to farm, I was in and around a bunch of farmers, and I just felt this sense that farmers they like understood something about their place in the world that the rest of us could really learn from.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um especially this year in Colorado.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, we're in the midst of a mega drought, we have been, um, but this year was different.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, this year was really, really bad.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um and the farmers, you know, they they keep going.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they show us what it looks like to keep going, um, despite all the odds.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, there's really no other option.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um Those that work with the land understand that life goes on and life finds a way and they they put themselves in that mix and become a part of it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_04: And so when I get really hopeless about the state of the world and my climate anxiety gets bad, I look to farmers as a way forward to show me what it looks like to keep going.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's beautiful.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, final, final question.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: Very quickly, quick, quick hit.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Someone is sitting here, probably many people sitting here are listening to this eventually.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: They're sitting here today wanting to do something, right?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the default question is, well, what can we do?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: So what would you say to that?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Someone who wants to take a first step to do one concrete thing, uh, what do you tell them briefly?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'll start since I have the microphone in my hand.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um and this is just from my perspective and from what I do, if you want to do something within the local agricultural, our local agricultural scene, is is to support your local farmer.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: Whether that means going to the farm stand, whether it means researching a CSA, uh, you know, community-supported agriculture for next spring, um uh whether it means going to their growing site and meeting them and looking like looking at how they grow and what they grow, um, is yeah, just support your local farmer.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can jump in.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um I would say the most impactful thing, talk to your neighbors.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Figure out if your neighbors need something that you can provide, they might have something that they can provide that you need, or both of you might have access that you can start banding together and create even bigger impacts by giving.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, start on that really small scale of chat to the people around you.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: If you can take care of each other, then that is one of the best ways that we can create just an entirely better society.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm just gonna encourage all of us, including myself, to uh pay attention.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_04: And um, what I mean by that is to pay attention to um the sources of your life, where your food comes from, where you come from, um, and what your life is producing or creating.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um I think paying attention to the ecosystems of which we're a part um is really important.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it brings up a lot of questions, concerns sometimes, um, but that would be my advice.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh final note um back to Wendell Berry, because how can we not go back there?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, Emma, I said that you and Wendell Berry were twinning with regard to something uh he wrote a few weeks ago, and so here's a little twinning too.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: He says soil is the great connector of lives, the source and destination of all.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: The healer and restorer and resurrector.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: I've never heard the word resurrector, but I like it.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: The healer and restorer and resurrector by which disease passes into hell, age into youth, and death into life.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the three of them are resurrectors by all that they've shared today, and they have their uh hands in the dirt and their hearts in the work.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, would you join me in thanking them for their time and input today?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And to follow their work, Boulder Food Rescue at Boulderfoodrescue.org, Boco Backyard Roots at BocoBackyardroots.com, and Emily Spilecki's book, Decomposing Holy Ground, is available wherever great books are sold.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to continue the conversation, uh connect with folks in the gallery afterwards, and thank you all so much for being part of us today.