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Reflections from Confluence: Language, Health Stories, and Faith with Dawn Petrin · Healing Octopus Radio

• David: today we are talking about our reflections ⁓ and insights and ⁓ sorts awesome ideas that came out of Confluence ⁓ and how that was. ⁓ And I the big thing that I'm hearing from others is that there are no words to describe it. So somehow we're going to make up some words ⁓ and talk things. Dawn: Yeah. Yeah, that's my full disclosure to listeners. I have yet to have posted anything about Confluence. And I told David before we started recording that it's my hopes that I come into some sort of congruent coherence, hilariously, about the event and what it felt like through this conversation so that I can share more. And I know the WayForward people and Alec and his team are always like, we never know how to market this. And I've gone twice now and I agree it's so hard to explain it. How many times have you gone now? David: I've gone to all four and yeah, even when I was ⁓ sharing about it and that I was speaking, ⁓ it's like health and freedom and community event or festival, conference, ⁓ kind of throwing those words together. But yes, very indescribable. Dawn: Cool. literally. Yeah, when we were crossing the border, they're like, where are you going? We're like, we're not going to sovereignty ranch to talk about equity. I like to describe it to people who don't know ⁓ me or the, ⁓ I guess the realm that we kind of live in and that I feel like we really live in at Confluence as like holistic health and freedom. But if I'm speaking to border patrol people. I skipped the freedom part, you know? David: Yes. I get really wonky about the words too, of course. So I'm like, that means different things to different people and it doesn't quite and yeah. And then I fall down the hole. Dawn: So. Of course. I mean, that seems like that was one of the major themes of ⁓ confluence this time too, was that sort of, I don't think it was spelled out as such as much as it happened, but like that our words are our spells and that we need to be really careful in ⁓ how we speak of things and what we're saying. And I got that from Dawn, the other Dawn. I introduced myself, I'm like, you're the other Dawn. Well, you're the Dawn and I'm the other Dawn. ⁓ David: you Dawn: I got that from ⁓ the Sacred Honor Educational Fellowship as well. I got that from Andrew, I forget his last name, ⁓ Samuel Wu. I went to his discussion thing on equity as well. And there was one gal who's, I mean, there was lots of speakers who I couldn't go to because things were happening at the same time and I have not yet ⁓ mastered the city or the perfection of being in multiple places and conscious of it at the same time. But there was one gal who I think that was her whole talk. Did you go to that one? No. Yeah. But it does seem like what I noticed from last year is that like Alec and his team kind of creates themes and it did seem like, the, I don't know, the empowered use of language was one of the themes that was threaded through the event. David: No, I didn't. Yes, I thought of that even with the stories part because like I was doing a thing on stories. ⁓ Dawn talked a little bit about stories and then the word stories just kind of wove through it as well. So I definitely picked that up on as one of the major themes was the language and the things we're telling each other. ⁓ And that especially comes into play with the terrain piece of people telling their health stories and ⁓ Dawn: Yeah. David: me just wanting to shake everybody and go, you made it up. Somebody else made it up. You just took it on. it didn't. So yeah. Dawn: Okay, so that's so interesting. This isn't from Confluence, but one of my teachers, Madeline Moon, said this thing ⁓ last time I was in Texas, which is in September, and she was like, everything is channeled. People made everything up. So you're like, you just made that up. like, truth is, is that like everything was made up. ⁓ Not Hellinger. ⁓ shoot, I forget his name. The G ⁓ dude, he made up those five laws based on what he saw, right? And same with the terrain perspective and the way it speaks of things. So David, my darling, I challenge you to ⁓ stop maybe or to pause on the idea of like, ⁓ you made that up. And that means it's like less true than other things. I don't know. What do you think? David: Hmm. Mm hmm. Hummer is the German medicine. Yeah. Yeah. The. Well, that's why I don't like the word laws, because law would imply that it works, meaning laws of this realm, not the not the legal stuff, but the laws. Yeah. Yeah. The like the laws of this realm, if they are a thing, the the meaning is that it works 100 percent of the time. Dawn: Hummer, yeah. Right. Just like, be careful with your words there. Mm-hmm. David: that way. And so somebody made that up. ⁓ Nobody knows 100 % of the time. And now we can really get into something unless you claim to be omniscient. And some people do. And I don't know that that's how that works. Just because it works today. Maybe it worked a different way yesterday. Maybe like, I don't know. ⁓ Dawn: Right. May we again soon. Great. Yeah, I feel like that's something that Mark Gober speaks about in his, an end to the upside down cosmos too. It's like just because it, you know, just because that's what it seems like on this planet, for lack of whatever word I'm supposed to use now, doesn't mean in this earth, on this terrain, ⁓ doesn't mean that that's how it works in other parts of the universe. So I think that's interesting, especially because so much of what Confluence is about is like, David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dawn: lawful versus legal, right? ⁓ As one of the places that we ⁓ come to ⁓ discover empowerment. Before we keep going too far, I want to say something that I don't know if you'll like. I tried to write about Confluence yesterday. And ⁓ one of the things that came to me was like, it feels like a little bit like the feeling that you used to get when you were a kid and you weren't David: Mm-hmm. Dawn: that awake to what was going on with Disney, but like when you were watching a Disney movie or like at the end of Full House when everything gets wrapped up in happiness or like I went to Disneyland a lot growing up. My mom worked for an airline, so we just were able to go there really affordably and not the rides of Disneyland, but like the feeling of being in a place where like if you're a kid in Disneyland and whatever, there's enough finances to do all the things. It's like, ⁓ I'm so safe. This is so fun. Everybody here wants me to have a good time. And I feel like that is one of the first major magics of Confluence for me was last year and this year landing and like getting there and just being like, holy shit. like my nervous system went like, shoo, like. I know that I don't believe all the same things as these people and they don't believe all the same things as me, but everyone here is open-minded towards at least like the things that I think and believe in. And it feels like, I don't know, I hate to say like since COVID, but since COVID and before that, it feels like there hasn't been that many, and I hate to say safe spaces, but actual safe spaces to be a free thinker. And that was a place where it's just like assumed that you question the narratives and that like you see the hilariousness, the absurdity of the world. And also it's sort of assumed that if you're there and you made the pilgrimage, the effort to get there, that like you're in for the efforting that it takes to create this as Eisenstein would say like a more beautiful world our hearts know is possible. David: Yes, agreed. ⁓ I don't know. I don't haven't had the Disneyland experience. So maybe that's what we should call it. It's like Disneyland, but for grownups. But yeah, I. Dawn: You ⁓ no. David: It's interesting for me to kind of get those reflections from people who haven't experienced that for as long as I have, because I realize I'm starting to take it for granted. Probably a lot where like I've been going to events since 2019 and 2021 was really. Thanks for listening. We really only covered about 10 % of the things we wanted to talk about. There was so much more to go into, but we just kind of went all over the place. And so that was a lot of fun. yeah, ⁓ I'll put some more ⁓ content out here about different topics that came up for me. And so look forward to that. And if you're interested and curious in how I'm talking about terrain and health, And 2020 and 2021 is really when I started to have those connections and the more intimacy like that was when I was just kind of. I was going to say blown off the planet or something like shocked ⁓ because I had nothing else to relate that to that type of connection. ⁓ So I realized that coming into it years later, ⁓ Welcome to Healing Octopus Radio. I'm David Barbarisi. On today's episode, I had a conversation with Don Petrin, who's one of my best friends and business coaches. We met virtually years ago in Kelly Brogan's Vital Life Project community and in person last year at Confluence, which is an event that's difficult to describe. I usually call it a health and freedom and community festival, but there's a whole lot more to it. and how I see the world, then please join me for What the F is up with Health, which is my six week live program. And the next cohort is starting at the beginning of June. ⁓ so check that out. The links in the show notes or go to healing octopus.com and yeah, please follow me on the socials, subscribe to the podcast, leave reviews, all the engagement things. And until next time, take care. It's yeah, it's interesting. Like it kind of it almost like wears off a little bit and I need to keep reminding myself like, yeah, this is really, really, special. ⁓ Dawn: It is so special. Yeah. And it's so nice to be able to take it for granted too, actually. Right? I think a lot of us, all of us, think everyone who has experienced anything to do with COVID, whether you like were all aboard the, in my writing yesterday, was like all aboard the Max and Vax train, or you were like questioning it all. We all have PTSD from that time. Like, and it's been David: And on today's episode, we're talking about our reflections from this year's confluence. Some of the topics include law, faith, health, and the stories that we tell ourselves. None of this is legal, financial, medical, or any other kind of advice, so keep that in mind. And I hope you enjoy the conversation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dawn: bypassed in a big way, especially from those people who were not ostracized as much. mean, everyone, everyone was deeply affected and changed. But those of us who fought back, whether it was quietly or not, are likely more armored and ⁓ more afraid. Like in my town where I live, like when people are like, where are going? And my husband was like, ⁓ yeah, we're going to a sovereignty festival. I was like, don't tell them that. Right? But at Confluence, I didn't have to say that. I didn't even have to explain myself. So there's something so nice there about that. And I think it's beautiful that you can like, you know, take it for granted too. Like we should, I don't want it to be this like special realm where we feel like we're allowed to exist as ourselves. I just want that to be. David: Yes. Dawn: the whole world, you know, and I don't want it to have to be like, you have to think like me in order to be able to be yourself either. So yeah, so grateful to Alec and Molly and ⁓ Mike and is Allison ⁓ Lindsey, so grateful to all and all of the people who worked with it to for the effort that they put into making that happen because like, David: you Mike. Lindsay. Yes. Dawn: That's another thing that happened, I guess. There was just so many crazy things behind the scenes, right? I have a friend who was volunteering at the beginning and he was like, I don't know, bring rubber boots. It's crazy here. And of course, like, you know, God smiled upon us with the Texas sun and it all hardened and it wasn't too crazy muddy. But the people who put that festival on worked their butts off this year. And I didn't see the stress on any of their faces. Maybe Molly, but she's a farmer and I just, and it's her home. So I assume that like it's a little bit more, but otherwise it seemed like, man, if they hadn't told you that behind the scenes was crazy, I don't think you would have known. David: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. The amount of grit and determination that all of them have is like off the charts, ridiculous. I look at my own life and the thing like, you know, we're having like the nervous system response from like scary emails and stuff. And I'm like, they're dealing with like animals living and dying and like crazy weather and like Dawn: Wells breaking. David: Everything. Well, yeah, I think it happened. I don't I would be curious what they would say about which years was the most intense. sounds like this one probably was. But like every single year, there's something crazy behind the scenes and you wouldn't know about it unless they said anything. Yeah. Dawn: Yeah, so, so beautiful. Kate, ⁓ were you exposed to any new ideas this year for you? You're pretty deep down all the rabbit holes. So deep down, you've like come up on some of them, right? But yeah, did you experience any like new revelations this year that you'd want to share with your listeners? David: Right. Hmm. Well, I didn't attend a whole lot of the talks, so there's that. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was reinforcement for me. I listened to all of my terrain friends. ⁓ The law stuff is still really challenging for me to get into. ⁓ Kind of got to. Dip in and then dip out and kind of go back and forth there. ⁓ Dawn: Okay. Yeah. Okay. David: I'd say one of the recurring themes besides the stories was also trust God. There was a lot of Jesus mixed into. ⁓ Dawn: Yeah. You know, there was Jesus, but I loved what Alex said about Jesus. He's like, I'm a Christian, but I don't believe you need to take Jesus as your savior to get to heaven. And that's really nice, because I think there are so many paths to get to God. And also, I think that a lot of people who are descended from Christians in the last thousand years, we have a lot of shit attached to that. so instead of... David: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dawn: like seeing God everywhere. We're like, there is no God. So I actually think it's really like, however you get there and I love Jesus. ⁓ I'm not like a practicing devout Christian, but I love Jesus deeply and grew up in the faith. And it's so nice to be in a place where people are ⁓ willing to be like, yep. we love God, we have to trust God and like shit's gonna be crazy, but we have to trust the creator that we're here for like a reason, right? And I don't know if that's, I'm say like, you know, when end times are coming, but we've always thought it was end times, but when our end times are coming, maybe we like come closer to God. But I also, yeah, I think it's so, so important. I mean, I don't know, your listeners probably don't know me, but my business is ostensibly like find God in marketing. Not quite that, that you want spirit. Spirit is everywhere and that's what we want to ⁓ call forward and that's why we want to serve, etc. And so I agree, it was really nice. And that's actually what my husband, he had so many takeaways because he's newer to these ⁓ ideas. But one of them, he's like, I just... David: Hehehehe Dawn: I love that people spoke about God and I love that I want to speak more freely about God now too and my love for God. it's like, ⁓ because I believe humans are inherent, mankind is the way we would put it in my years in philosophy, are inherently good and that God is good. And even when you're part of an ostracized community in the midst David: Hmm. Dawn: of who knows what, well we know what, because we can go read the WEF and the WHO mandates. But even when you're in the midst of this like pretty much train wreck of what's going on in society, if you can put your faith into a higher power, into the creator and like be in love in your heart, things are going to be better than they would if you're just like, I hate the world and I hate people. And as I was like leaving, a friend of mine who is like, she is a free thinker, but she posted on her Instagram, like a mask on the ground and she's like, human beings are a cancer. And I was like, no, this isn't it. So to arrive at Confluence and hear this, like, you know, the love that we have for each other, ⁓ mankind and creator, it's really nice. Yeah. David: you Mm-hmm. Yeah, we've got to rethink the word cancer, too ⁓ Yeah We're not I'm gonna get in trouble when this comes up using the c-word the Like it's an adaptation of Well, there's a whole thing about definition and the test and all of that like what? Dawn: I was like... Yeah, okay, how would you read the word cancer? Sure. David: It really is. ⁓ But the idea that we're being decomposed. ⁓ But it's not that. It's not that that's causing that, it's that we've. Fallen so far off the path. That ⁓ it's time to return to the soil. Yeah, and I mean. Dawn: ⁓ yeah, that's a, that's fair. Okay. Yeah. David: It can be reversed and all of that. I don't mean it to sound like so heavy and stark, but like the the general idea of like this is what's supposed to happen to us after we're in the ground. So we're being composted. ⁓ So I come from the this is the Biggleson philosophy of it's a molding process, and it's not that the fungus is attacking, it's that it's. Breaking us down. ⁓ Dawn: Right. Right. Right. David: dead and decaying tissue. ⁓ So it is a beneficial process, sort of, but it depends on what scale you're looking at. Because if you want to be your body still a little longer, it's beneficial and it tells you to get back on the path. But also, in the overall giant picture, that seems to be what's going on. Dawn: Cool, I mean not cool, yeah, mean, Cancer is interesting in that, ⁓ my God, what's his name again? ⁓ The GNM dude. David: Hummer. Yes. Dawn: I keep wanting to... Anyway, I'm back in family constellations training, so I keep wanting to him Hellinger. So he got like testicular cancer, right? So this is from Melissa Sell's talk, and this is paraphrased from my memory. But he got testicular cancer after his son was accidentally killed, ⁓ crazily enough by like the exiled Italian prince or something ridiculous. And, ⁓ you know, he had whatever radiation, had whatever he had to remove it, but in getting it, it set him on his path to ⁓ like studying cancer. And he ended up being like the head oncologist ⁓ at a hospital where he was actually able to see like brain patterns and places in the body where people were getting cancer. I don't want say like cure, but find some remedy for people using allopathic means, but also using like spiritual coming to terms with or something. so it was interesting, like, because what she said was like, he got testicular cancer because the body was like, you need more testicles because your seed has just passed on or something like that. I admittedly am like ⁓ just like a ⁓ toe dipper into German new medicine. A good friend of mine is ⁓ a practitioner and teacher of it. So I've learned some, but I love the idea that seems to work really well at both German new medicine and terrain that like everything the body is doing is brilliant and adaptive, right? And so cancer, even like the bigglesons or whoever knows the most about terrain or whatever, they're still just going to be like, David: Thank you. Dawn: guessing at what the adaptation of what a cancer is anyway. David: Yes, we still got to make up the stories. So you get to pick which story you want. Yeah. I don't think there's any way to really know what the thing is other than there's useful patterns. So this is like the ⁓ past for performance is not an indicator of future performance or whatever. So we got useful patterns from the past. That doesn't mean that. Dawn: Right. David: tomorrow's thing is gonna work exactly the same way. We're not guaranteed any kind of consistency. ⁓ And then yeah, the other thing like with ⁓ cancer and I think with everything, like there's the emotional component. So there's different frameworks for all of that. ⁓ I'm coming to the current belief, because that's all I have, that A framework that brings peace could be true for whoever, or at least useful. So there's different emotional frameworks of this emotion means this thing and relates to this, and it fits for some people and it doesn't fit for other people. And then there's other frameworks and fits for some people, doesn't fit for some people. And so what I'm kind of getting at, especially with the emotional part, ⁓ Dawn: Right. David: because I'm still in progress there. Yeah. So for me, it's like, OK, whatever seems to fit for that current thing and whatever brings peace. Dawn: We all are, David. that's super beautiful, whatever brings peace is true or at least useful. True in that situation. And oftentimes, like, probably if you can become peaceful or balanced or coherent, you know, as it were, because that's a word that also gets bandied about those places, that place, confluence, chances are it's going to be easier to heal whether you're doing it using allopathic means or... lifestyle medicine or whatever. If you can be at peace with the choices that you're making, you're definitely ⁓ like heal something, you know, you'll be healing something. That was, yeah, it was interesting when Melissa Sells was speaking. One of her case studies was like a melanoma case study and it was like, the result, well, I got the melanoma cut off. And she was like, you know, if you like belief is so important. that if you are afraid and you don't think, like, and you, if you believe that like getting the melanoma cut off is going to ⁓ work better than just the GNM, like it might be good for you to do that because your belief matters so much when it comes to healing. What do think of that? David: Yes, agreed. Yeah, I. I reluctantly agree that belief matters way more than we want to admit that it does. I, so I really like knowing or the seeking truth and I have to come to this conclusion that this belief that I can't know truth right now in this incarnation or whatever. And so Dawn: Why are you reluctant? Yeah. David: There's a hell of a lot of variables and possibilities. And I and just not able to hold all of those or to even come to a useful or come to a framework that I like. And this, of course, comes up for me with the practitioner piece of like, ⁓ I'm going to help people with like, this is what I'm teaching and this is what I'm ⁓ sharing. And I would love to have an awesome framework. Dawn: Right. David: that I could just go, this is it. This is the thing. I just need to give this to you and then you're going to understand and like everything's great. And then, you know, reality ⁓ disagrees with that. ⁓ So I got to go, OK, well, beliefs. So I guess you can do anything. And as long as you believe hard enough, you can jump off the cliff and fly. ⁓ And I don't like that as an answer. Dawn: Hmm. Wait a second. If anyone's going to teach people how to jump off cliffs and fly, it's probably Edith. mean, it might be in the right place. Confluence might be in the right place to fly. ⁓ before I move on to Edith, because I do want to speak about how cool she is and how cool what she teaches is, but... David: Yes. True. Dawn: I wonder if, you you talk about stories and frameworks, I wonder if like part of the problem is like you are a zeros and ones person, right? Like as a computer engineer, you want like this stark truth, it's, you know, equals true or not, right? And like, I, and then I also want to challenge you, I think you do know truth in your body, but our knowing of truth in our body, our spiritual understanding of the world is, David: Mm-hmm. Dawn: impossible to communicate precisely with words. So first of all, I think you know truth, David. That's why you know you don't know truth. And I had a professor back in my early days of studying who spoke about the illogical ways that we know that logic is right. And that has like stuck with me. It's like, ⁓ well intuitively, you just know it's right. And it's like, ⁓ David: You Dawn: ⁓ Yeah, then I think like, yeah, the framework of like, if you are building a world on the internet with computers, you are choosing to eliminate nuance and create ⁓ specificity in each ⁓ moment, I guess. David: Yes. Yeah, there is some more, there's still some magical and mysterious stuff with technology though as well. So I don't have all the answers there either. Right. Dawn: Which is probably nice. for sure. Yeah, I was gonna say except for in the quantum, except for in the quantum. I'm like, are we? Is there quantum? I think that's something interesting I noticed too this time. there seemed to be, I wanna say like competing, like Charles Eisenstein has a different viewpoint on a lot of things than I don't know about from this year, but like Steve Young or something. ⁓ or Mark Gober, like he was talking about the quantum and I know there are a lot of our, a lot of the people who are questioning are also questioning sort of like quantum stuff. So I think that's something I want to say about ⁓ confluence too. It's like in the knowing that we can't quite elucidate truth perfectly, ⁓ we maybe, or Alec or whoever's choosing the speakers also like allows different perspectives to be there. So, In some way though, probably lots of people would call us like far-right fascists, even though none of us are that. ⁓ In some ways, it feels like there's more... Yeah, just coming back to like more space for nuance, for mystery. There's more space for mystery in the speakers at this conference than maybe at other ones. David: Yeah, I I I don't know, it bugs me a little. ⁓ The quantum stuff and then where there are disagreements on things that should be evidential conversations. So, let's see. Dawn: Okay. David: Like, I guess in mainstream science, the way quantum stuff is defined, like physical particles. So if we're in that, and this is like the words being weird too, but if we're in that realm of like, here's some photons and electrons and they're doing this and that, like, okay, that should be observable, directly observable. Like if we're talking physical particles, I should be like, I can hold this in my hand. And you know, like it's a thing and this is the virus issue and this is like all of the other ones. So when I'm in that conversation, to me, there has to be, has to be common reality. So like, you know, we're in a room and we say, that's a table over there. And we can both point at the table and say, that's a table. And we have some kind of common definition of table. So when we're talking about the particles and things, like that should be like that conversation. where things get mixed up or where I get confused is then we're having those conversations in the more metaphysical realm. And of course we could argue that there's no boundary there and that the whole thing's blurry of, know, you don't go, ⁓ I'm in physical, now I'm in metaphysical, whatever, you know. So there's that problem. But so when I hear someone like Charles talk about what he's talking about, Dawn: ⁓ Yep. David: I don't know where he's playing in. It sounds like the metaphysical, ⁓ where words that meant certain things to me in the physical reality now mean different things. ⁓ DNA being another example. don't know if, I don't think he said this, but like people say DNA and they mean it as like their blueprint of life. They could mean it outside the body. And I'm kind of like using it as a, what is it? Dioxi, ribo, blah, blah, acid. And so it's like, it's an acid, it's a chemical. Like show me the chemical in the body. So to me, like maybe I'm going more literal, whereas I feel like the spiritual, the metaphysical aspect is using that term in a different way. And so that's where I feel like there's confusion. Dawn: Hmm. That's interesting. Are you a Cartesian? David: What do mean by that? Dawn: Like, you believe there's a separation between mind and spirit and matter? Do you believe there's a separation between spirit and matter? David: I think there can be a useful distinction between the two. Dawn: I mean, that's where Descartes was coming from, right? Because when he came into like, okay, we need to separate spirit and matter, it was because he wanted to be able to study matter. And the church was like, no, you can't study anything. It's all God. And then the church is like, we own God. Well, yeah, kind of, right? We own God. We own religiosity. We own spirit. And therefore, y'all can read... David: Yeah, right. Dawn: ⁓ Like Aristotle in the Bible and other than that we will not be cutting people up We will not be counting how many legs on a spider I think in the I think in Aristotle there was like more legs or something I can't remember that exact story but so Descartes was like actually mind and body are like spirit and body spirit and matter are separate and so the church can own spirit and then we can go and study matter and I think that that is like how we got here it's like by being allowed to be like separate them and then get really specific, cut people up, look at them under microscopes, like the whole world. That's how we got to all these like scientific laws, which we know are most likely descriptions of how things go usually. Right? And so yeah, they're just kind of teasing you about that because I do wonder about like, if we come to understand something about matter. David: Yes. Dawn: does it reflect into what the spiritual realm is like? And I don't know, I don't claim to know. And I think that some of the magic of our, ⁓ is it a peer group maybe? Is that so many of us are mostly aware that most of the truths are not really true and we don't really know. And the great mystery is what's like really exciting and beautiful. ⁓ these days. I think I got that. ⁓ I definitely got that from last year's confluence where it was so much about like water and the maybe it's not a globe. ⁓ And then this year similarly in the like Trust God. And also I know you didn't do much with the law stuff, but I did sit in on some equity talks and it's like knowing who you are as a like valuable and powerful, almost like asset in society and being in honor with who you are and then how you interact with the like, ⁓ like being lawful versus legal, how you interact with the legal system. Like so much of a more free life is just actually getting behind the idea that you are free and then learning how to like, David: you Dawn: ⁓ advocate for yourself ⁓ in the system. And that's something ⁓ I really, really loved what... I really loved it from Andrew. Bring freedom into your life with ⁓ Equity Fellowship, Andrew McDonald. ⁓ I didn't know him before. I knew the Sacred Honor ⁓ Fellowship people because I met ⁓ MJ last year. But ⁓ I felt like, what did he say? David: Yeah. Dawn: Right, equity is available always, but we have to bring it. ⁓ And then like everything the government is doing is under fiction and equity lives in all fiction. So it's like if you, ⁓ and ⁓ yeah, the vibration of equity is being an honor. So it kind of reminds me of like the sort of shit that me and Alisa might talk about, about like getting high vibe and like that if you can get into the vibration of the thing, you actually like are in it. And it seems like that plus some like understanding of the laws that you are. not acquiescing to, you are not agreeing to be part of when you're, if you do get ⁓ taken down by the RCMP in Canada or the cops anywhere else, the police, those, if you can vibrate at a level of equity and you know something about the things to say appropriately or the things not to say, you can actually like... ⁓ I say like live outside the law, but you can live a lawful and honorable life, not weighed down as heavily by ⁓ the state's legal jurisdiction, right? Jurisdiction is another word that I feel like was really like important for me to come to understand that I've obviously thought about, but haven't thought about as much as I did after. David: Thank Dawn: him and also VEDA Revival, who was really cool. Did you listen to her talk? Oh man, I'm going to have a baby and not give it a birth certificate. I'm so excited. Like, oh, so empowering. David: No, I didn't. Awesome. Dawn: And this is I think is so interesting with equity. It's like, if we are doing this, if we're working... ⁓ within the equity frameworks. We're just trying things that other people have done ⁓ based on something like Black's Law, like based on common law, based on like trying to say the right words that take you out of the jurisdiction of that system of control. But, I was explaining this to Nathan, ⁓ but like the courts, they can't say the reason that your case got dismissed. Like that shit can't get on the record, right? So I have not deep dove into equity yet, but it seems like what I, part of what I learned from Sam was like, you just got to be trying to get stuff on the record. You're just trying to get stuff on the record and then the courts are trying not to get stuff on the record because... If it was like, ⁓ yeah, because you got yourself out of the jurisdiction of this court, now we're going to dismiss your charges, you actually don't need a license, then that would be like, everyone else could start doing it. AI would be like, ⁓ turns out if you say these words or whatever, right? We'd all know. So it's so interesting because there were a number of people in that conversation who had also had similar occurrences working within equity frameworks. ⁓ being lawful in a legal situation, but none of them could say why they won. And they didn't really win. You'll never really win, right? They'll just dismiss it to keep it off the record. And they were even talking, some people think there are equity law courts that people get into and maybe Sam ended up in one, but it was never said that. Anyway, I thought of that was so, so interesting. And Nathan, my husband, who had never been exposed to any of it before was kind of mind blown and also like, yeah, I think I'm just gonna try not to need to go to court. David: Yes, that's my strategy so far. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The. Which I think it's not called driving then. That's that's one point. You know, your your property. Yeah, yeah. But ⁓ yeah, I don't know the details on that. But yeah, what I've one important point that I have gotten from everyone I've talked to so far is the ridiculous amount of Dawn: Right. Yeah, I'm gonna get a license, I guess. Yeah. ⁓ okay. You're transporting or traveling or something. Uh-huh. David: inner work that's required for any of that to work. Yeah, because I'm still dealing with, or I still have the, I would say residual fear of people in uniforms. Dawn: ⁓ Me too. Yeah. David: Yeah, and and so i'm i'm like, I don't want to go to court. I don't want to deal with people in uniforms. I don't want like any of that and so um because I was looking at The the status situation and um Yeah, I have a passport that expired more than 15 years ago, so I would need to Go talk to somebody to get a new one and do it a certain way and As opposed to just renewing it where I could just mail in all the stuff and i'm like I just want to mail in I don't want to talk to someone because then they're going to ask me questions and i'm going to need to like really know my stuff and you know answer in Really specific way and i'm like, okay. I I know I am not at that level right now ⁓ so yeah, there's A lot of yeah Dawn: That's how they get us. David: They teach us to fear the uniforms and the little pieces of metal called badges and all the other stuff. ⁓ Yep. Yes, that too. ⁓ So, yeah, there's a lot there and I'm already, as you know, already under the weight of the inner work of entrepreneurship. ⁓ yeah, it might be. Yeah. Dawn: The guns that come with them. I was gonna say it's, it might be the same inner work in a big way, you know, and I think it also speaks to ⁓ choosing good mentors, choosing great, great mentors who will really be there for you. And I think that if I decide to go the equity path, which probably eventually I will, right? Man, do I ever want to do that with mentors who are willing to like support me if I get in those situations? ⁓ Because David: Yeah. Dawn: You could just so easily say yes to the contract without knowing what the contract is. ⁓ there was a great speaker last year who spoke about offers and how everything is an offer. And if we don't realize that everything is an offer, then we are so much less empowered. Do you remember that? Do you know what I'm talking about? David: Yeah, yeah, that was Tom Burnett. Yeah. I yeah, it's interesting. I tried to or weaving all of that together with voluntary ism and the fact that I don't want the state to or I don't believe in the state at all because it doesn't have a moral right to exist and Dawn: ⁓ yeah, so good. Yeah. David: If everything's an offer, then to some degree we already live in voluntarism and we all just kind of consented to the state existing. Dawn: So yeah, I know. Okay. So my, I've only one done one episode of my like beautiful rebellion podcast, but it's on the social contract, right? And it did make me think about social contracts. ⁓ and, ⁓ the equity talks that I attended this past weekend also made me or like last weekend, whenever that was, ⁓ think about the social contract. ⁓ but you said consent and I think, and I'm not studied in this, but I think, Acquiesce is the word for it because we're not actually consenting because consent I mean maybe informed consent or like act like because yes you consent when you ⁓ Give birth you consent for your child by getting them a birth certificate and a social insurance number or something, right? But you don't know what you're actually consenting to so in my opinion, it's still not or It's like not really ⁓ what a true social contract would be because I'd be able to read the fine print. Like even on the vaccines, at least you can like read the super long insert, right? ⁓ But we don't have that unless we go deep into reading Black's Law, into listening to all these talks, breaking the spell from the Sacred Honor Educational Fellowship, right? We don't really have that. But like you said, it's the inner work. And it's the inner work with health too. So it seems like freedom is entirely an inside job and then you have to like stand up and advocate for yourself. And it's so hard to do that without expanders who are doing that around you. And even if you have those expanders around you, it's so hard to do that that, ⁓ you know, it makes sense that most people don't do it. First, they don't know. And then second, they're like, shit. this sounds hard and scary. I don't want to go to jail for a night or a life or what have you, right? And the vibration of equity is a vibration of honor is what ⁓ helps you to advocate for equity and being on the lawful side of history, not the legal side of history. And I do think like... David: Thanks Dawn: And this is something I saw during the Q &A that you and the rest of the Terrain Cool Kids did, ⁓ was that it's like so much of healing inside of Terrain, G ⁓ any of these alternative ways of thinking about things is an inside job. And even the focus on like constantly trying to heal is maybe ⁓ problematic. And I want to call out y'all because I wondered if sometimes terrain is too intellectualized for people. And so it's really like I saw in the Q &A someone like really looking for help with symptoms and almost getting laughed at. I won't say laughed at, but almost it's like, oh, well, if you don't know this, like if you don't, do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, I don't know. David: Yeah, I Yes, and I'm Felt this as a challenge where it can come off dismissive ⁓ And I guess there's a missing attunement and Dawn: Mmm. David: I haven't decided where I want to play within that spectrum. And I understand there's sort of the people who have been more involved in this for like a longer period of time. And it's really frustrating because yeah, people show up and you think they're ready to do a thing and then they're not ready. Or ⁓ this happened with Dr. Biggleson and his sons where they helped people. And then 2020 came around and then those people just went and fell for everything. And it's like, okay, you didn't really understand terrain. And so that's very frustrating. And I... I feel that and I maybe hold that back more than I should because there is an emotional piece there of like, yeah, I want to help people, but then if they're going to go do stupid stuff, in my opinion, ⁓ I'm going to take that kind of personally. So there's a little bit of detachment there for me. But the ⁓ so there's that frustration. So I can hear that. Dawn: Right. David: within our voices and behind the scenes and stuff. ⁓ I also see like the other extreme, I guess, is the trying to handhold too much. And, you know, this is me getting way too attached of like, ⁓ I just want them to do the right thing. You just need to go outside or whatever. Dawn: Yep. David: And, you know, like, it seems so obvious to me. And of course, my own stuff isn't obvious to me. ⁓ Some of it is, and I'm just not doing it anyway. But, you know, there's that. We're yeah, we're people. ⁓ So I can see that on one side, it comes off kind of dismissive and kind of like, ⁓ just stop saying you feel bad or just stop saying you need to be fixed or whatever. I understand that. And then I also understand going to the other extreme and like Dawn: Of course. Yep. Thank you. David: sitting with someone with their story and ⁓ I therapist said this to me of like the different the the idea of empathy and I forget which definition this is but watching someone in the well and saying hey I see you're in a well versus like jumping in the well with them and like taking on the story and everything and so I'm like yeah I don't really want to take on your victim stories or believe them or like Dawn: Hmm. David: further enable you in that way. But then also I don't want to be 100 % dismissive either. Dawn: Yeah, yeah, I'm working, I'm doing a breath work training with a really amazing somatic therapist. And she said this thing like, well, the stories are real. Like people need, sometimes people need, you know, I know we can tell when we've told our story enough times and it's just being like, okay, now I'm just stuck in this BS story. And I can tell as a coach when people are doing that, right? And if you haven't felt seen in that story yet, ⁓ you might not be ready to move through it actually, right? And I think too, like chances are, had this individual who was suffering, ⁓ spoken to any of the terrain practitioners as a client, it might have been like a different experience. And you know, we're at a festival, we're just trying to like get our points across, but I think this might be something it's like, you know, Because you're steeped in the ethos of terrain or German new medicine or even equity, because it's similar, right? You think the other people should get it by now. But they don't yet. And that's why when you telegram me, you're like, I think I just want to teach this. Teach it! Teach it! Because if they don't, like if people are coming to listen to a talk, they're probably not studying with the Bigglesons yet, right? They're probably not as steeped in it and their pattern might be, you know, they grew up in their primary scenario or their family of origin or whatever, they grew up never being heard. And then they go to their practitioners and still feel that like they're, I'm not saying that you guys did that, but like. still feel like the story has a place and then we transcend the story. But same teacher, her name is Rihanna Costa. She's really amazing. And the method is the bolder method. She also said, oftentimes we forgive too early and then we've bypassed and it just festers. And this makes me think of like if I'm just like, yeah, okay, like I know it's just a story. ⁓ it's just a story I'm telling myself. I should just get over it. That story might just actually like become shadow, you know? And then ⁓ the symptoms keep coming, they get worse or what have you. I'm not sure, but it's a direction my mind goes. David: Mm. Makes me think of the Don't Be Angry. Don't Be Angry. It's low vibe, which makes me angry. Dawn: Totally. ⁓ man, yeah, exactly. And then we have like a, like there's so many women who like, you know, have been pushing their anger down and then they're like, I have an autoimmune problem or like I'm inflamed all the time or I'm not digesting well. It's like, you're fucking mad. Go out there and yell at someone. No, I'm not. Maybe, maybe the right person or have the appropriate discussion, know, stomp your foot. David: ⁓ I'm You Dawn: Because ⁓ so many ⁓ like sympathetic, I don't know, do we believe in the nervous system anymore? But so many of our ⁓ survival mechanisms get stopped in this day and age, right? And then they become like illness ⁓ as well. Yeah, yeah. David: Yeah. Yeah. I, ⁓ This is funny, but I really like what Topher said about how he doesn't listen to people, but he lets them talk because they need to be listened to and then he listens to the body. So, yeah, and that was something. So. Yeah, I guess I don't trust body workers right now, but ⁓ for many of them, but that the really good ones, they don't need to talk to you. They can just tell what your body is doing. Dawn: Yeah. David: ⁓ Or energy workers could be like that as well. But the like yeah, we really want to talk and tell our stories and also it could be totally Not totally unrelated but kind of unrelated to whatever the body's actually doing Or is working on so I don't know but yeah Dawn: Right. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I have the ability. I have the ability to touch someone and know where their pain is and like kind of move it around. I'm not a body worker, but I have that ability. So I understand that. And like, we know that emotional conflict is so much of like where illness comes from that like, if it's able to come out, then it could be good. ⁓ Yeah, I'm going to look at my notes, but I did want to talk about, what did I say? Okay, I'm going to quote someone really smart. ⁓ All tests are wrong, but some tests are useful. Do you want to talk about that? David: Yes. ⁓ And I was that I was going to talk about the meeting people where they are. ⁓ yes, the that came from I learned that from Josh Biggleson, who learned that from farmers. He just said farmers in general, ⁓ like talking about soil tests and things. So with all of these things, all of these tests, Dawn: Right. David: And I don't care if it's so-called alternative or holistic or whatever. I would say aside from some energetic testing, but we're taking something from the body, from the natural environment, and doing stuff to it, processing it, usually adding chemicals, ⁓ putting it through machines that do stuff that few people know how they actually work. And then... Dawn: Yeah. David: telling a story after that. so, well, one thing, it's a snapshot. So even if it was totally valid, completely all the thing, it's just a snapshot of how are you doing right now, you know, and we're always adapting and changing. So that's it. So that could be useful for like before and after, or maybe day to day kind of stuff. ⁓ As for whether it's measuring something actually inside the body is a huge question and I would go with it doesn't seem to be measuring things inside the body things that are actually there but it correlates they can correlate certain things. ⁓ So, in bringing this back around to meeting people where they are. I had blood work done in 2018. It said, let's see, C-reactive protein, cortisol, ⁓ one other thing. These chemicals were all out of balance or out of the normal ranges. And that's the other problem is normal ranges is where did they come from? But it... Dawn: Right. David: me being a good public school student got the report card with the numbers on it and it said these numbers are bad so you want to make these numbers better so yeah i worked for the next year and ⁓ worked with the health coach and did all lifestyle changes and the next year the numbers were better so In the giant zoomed out scheme of things that all needed to happen exactly the way it happened in the very, very zoomed in ⁓ version of what is my opinion right now. ⁓ All of those tests are garbage. And I think that's the other thing with the speaking in front of a crowd is like, I'm going to tell you the more I wanted to say honest as if I'm lying somewhere else. Dawn: Right. David: But the more honest, my more extreme version of the thing, like this is nonsense. And this is, I was going to say for social media, like my colleagues put on social media, this is garbage. And they're kind of dramatic about it. And that gets all the engagement and that gets people arguing and like all that. So there's different communication styles for the different context. In the 101 context, there is the... me changing my message so that maybe the other person can hear it or maybe it's where they are. ⁓ There's also me maybe changing my message if I'm scared or think they're going to yell at me or that kind of stuff. Because fear of getting yelled at is apparently a big thing for me. ⁓ So, yes, when practitioners are working one on one with people, ideally they're changing well. Dawn: Mm-hmm. Hmm. David: changing the message, they're modifying the communication style in a way that can reach them. I have a hard time with not lying there. Dawn: Mm-hmm. Mmm, okay. David: Meaning that, like, if you're scared of germs, I'm not probably not going to meet you where you are with that. Because there's some point where I can't I can't ⁓ temper it while also being truthful or honest. Dawn: But... Right. And if there's someone who's coming in with a diagnosis that ⁓ they are struggling with and they've kind of tried everything and you might be able to meet them at their diagnosis and then shift it. Like be like, hear you. This is what they, ⁓ okay. And even with your story, I feel like you have a ⁓ space to... I feel like there's a space for you to show that symptoms don't necessarily have to be bad, I guess, ⁓ just in who you are and what you've been through in your own lifetime, right? So like with the gal who is suffering from suffering, yes, from Hashimoto's, we don't know about that, right? ⁓ You probably... would be able to meet someone who's like, I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's. These are all the things I've done ⁓ to deal with it so far and not be like, everything's bonk, like no need to, right? You could say like, well, the good news is Hashimoto's is a name of a dude who discovered a collection of symptoms and we can work through it, right? Like there is probably a way to meet people. And I think this is actually sort of an umbrella too. Like if I want, confluence to be everywhere. If I want to feel safe to be myself everywhere, I'm going to need to find a way to speak to the truth. Not the truth, I know how about the questions I'm asking in a way that doesn't totally destroy someone else's worldview. And that doesn't, maybe that doesn't have to be lying. I don't know about like sugar coating or what have you, but we don't have to come at it with the like, viruses never existed as our opener when we're talking about this stuff, David: Right. I do not do that as the opener anymore at all. I literally... ⁓ I mean, yeah, so I was very in the No Virus crowd. I mean, I still am. And that was like the identity. And what I... And yeah, so I came into the Biggleson's work and they like never talk about it. They actually kind of hate talking about it. They kind of... Dawn: Yeah, was there a point where you did? Yeah. Right. David: Maybe I'll help people who go into their courses in their world don't ask about viruses with them. But it was never a conversation they had because it just didn't come up in the blood, like was never part of their worldview. And so now there's like this flooding in of people like asking about it. it's such a triggering conversation. And then it's so far removed from observable reality. ⁓ If you don't have a $20,000 microscope and know how to do all the stuff, you know, so ⁓ It's another particle thing I'm like, why are we talking about these particles that none of us can really see and like we can't do anything with them Like this isn't useful ⁓ so I've been coming at it from the contagion point of view because this is These are observable Phenomena, these are things ⁓ Dawn: Right. Okay, tell me that. David: I love the conjoined twins example. Conjoined twins don't get sick at the same time. That even breaks terrain because they're in the same terrain. So that's more of like, it's got to be thoughts and emotions or something unique about them because they have different heads and skulls and I don't know how their souls would be split out. I guess those are separate, but all our souls are not separate. ⁓ Anyway. Dawn: Hmm. David: That's the yeah, that's the whole other trail. ⁓ But yeah, they have many shared origins. They have shared blood. ⁓ They're next to each other. So they're coughing and sneezing on each other. And they just don't get sick at the same time. ⁓ That's my favorite example that came from Mike Stone, who does viral. Lygi is the website and. I just like start out with that, like the contradiction, like this is an observable contradiction. ⁓ You know, we don't have to get into the microscopic world. We don't have to hypothesize like nothing. It's just, this is, you know, as long as you believe what the article says. ⁓ And then I get into the thing with moms. As you will learn, you're gonna get all kinds of fluids from baby, from... Dawn: Right. David: They're friends from everyone. ⁓ Vomit, poop, pee, sweat, tears, blood, all the things ⁓ sneezed on, coughed on. ⁓ And yeah, there are when we when the moms pay attention. ⁓ I believe they will notice those times when not everybody in the household gets sick. ⁓ And I've heard plenty of stories of sharing, eating utensils, eating after each other, drinking after each other, ⁓ getting sneezed on in the mouth or vomited on. All kinds of scenarios we could come up with where contagion did not work. ⁓ But we have been trained to ignore those and to really focus, hyper-focus on where it kind of looks like it's working. ⁓ Dawn: Right. David: I like to lead with those because those are real examples that people actually experience. Dawn: Right. And it doesn't have to be about viruses at all. It's just like about contagion. So you can kind of like skip the like proving it doesn't exist or proving it does exist sort of part of the conversation. Yeah. I wonder how we could do that with like the law. It's a better, it's a different, I was gonna say better, but that's not true. It's a different mind than mine that is going to, that is going to, to, to do that so that more people. David: Right. Dawn: can come to understand. Okay, you've been to all of the confluences so far and you've seen a pretty big like shift in the amount of people who show up, right? So do you have anything to say about that? think like, yeah, go ahead. David: Yes. Yeah, the so the first one was 100 something people. So we were all there together the whole time. ⁓ There was a opening ceremony. We're sitting around a fire. Pass the mic around like everybody gets to talk. So that's pretty intimate there. ⁓ Dawn: Right, yeah. Wow. Yeah. David: And we kept saying the funny thing about where the pastor bowl place was. That was the main stage and the dance floor was right in front of that. So like everyone was doing everything together for the most part. Second year was 400 something people. I think I still feel like I saw most people then. And then by the third year, 750 and then this year is eleven hundred. Dawn: Yeah. Yeah. you David: And I'm still like, there's probably people who I meant to see and I didn't see, and I'm going to find out later on. Yeah, I think that might be some of the. where the standard is so high for me that I'm like, okay, maybe I don't like a thousand people or being around a thousand people for that long. ⁓ I did like the extra days where it was a little bit smaller. ⁓ But yeah, it certainly loses some of the intimacy there. ⁓ And Dawn: Right. Yeah. David: I think maybe this is the progression for me of realizing it's becoming less for me and more that this is for others. this might be my own theme as well of like, okay, this is why I'm vending or why I'm doing a workshop or doing the other things of like, ⁓ yeah, I need to do this for others. And I forgot how meaningful it was for me when I was first. Dawn: Mmm. David: being introduced there. Dawn: Okay, I like it. Because you kind of came in with like, ⁓ no, if I like it now that it's bigger and then like ended with like, I get to be in service. And that feels beautiful. And it feels like what I want to, I don't know, like touch on or be with is the idea that like the first year 100 people came and this four years later, 1100 people came and like, you know, like at a certain point, maybe there's a tipping point like One thing I thought that was really cool that Charles Eisenstein said was like, he's like, ⁓ everyone talks about this bifurcation that's coming, right? Like this like new earth versus, and like, I think maybe we want a bifurcation because that sounds easier than needing to transmute everything on this planet into goodness. It's like, and I'm not, I don't know. I love the idea of it in terms of like, I can see a shitty timeline in a direction and I want to be in a nausea-ty timeline. And like maybe we can get to Critical Mass. Like if we can go from 100 to 1,000 with this festival, maybe we can get to Critical Mass because the one thing I saw over and over again was like big, wide, open, loving hearts. And ⁓ you know, being everyone, I don't know. I'm usually a person who does not feel like they fit in and doesn't feel like part of the cool kids. And of course I can see like at, ⁓ like I came as Kelly Brogan's guest last year. So I was like automatically like in the cool kid club, right? And I was like, ⁓ this is cool. ⁓ But this year I did not have the ⁓ stature and status of being like, Kelly's kind of like bodyguard or whatever. And I could see there were people who'd been there for a long time and who knew each other and who knew me a little bit, but. But I did not feel left out, and that's one of my stories, and I did not feel like I didn't belong. And the fact that there were more people, and it wasn't just like the, your Asimos and Joel and, our lovely friend, ⁓ Mike, who is hilarious. My husband watched that one and he's like, couldn't tell if he was joking or not, pretty much the whole thing, because he was talking about drinking your own pee for an hour or whatever. I was like, ⁓ I had a feeling it was gonna be about that. But like, I didn't feel like I didn't belong even though I wasn't necessarily part of the inner inner circle. And I think the more of us who can show up and serve and not necessarily... It's like that group grows. I don't know, my friend Zach who was volunteering, he probably thought I was one of the cool kids because I know a bunch of those people or whatever, right? And maybe they aren't cool kids. I just call them that because of my nerdy upbringing. ⁓ that's something too. It does feel like it's a big group of like lovely nerdy very smart people kind of letting loose at night and it's like the cool kids are the nerdiest and that's that's pretty neat, but it did feel to me like I belonged ⁓ and of course I was so so blessed to be able to be presenting as well, but most people didn't know me. It's not like they knew I was presenting and that's why they were so kind to me or what have you, right? It just, felt like everyone lands, we show up, ⁓ the farm like greets us and we are like just allowed to be ourselves even if, you know. One of us believes in terrain and one of us is like, don't know about that BS or whatever, right? How can you not believe in the terrain? It's all around. But you know I'm saying, even though someone might be an adamant like Janem or someone might be like adamant that it's absolutely inappropriate to sign any contracts with the state or whatever, right? But the fact that you are there, I am there, everyone is there in order to ⁓ really like move the world into a more loving, open, truthful, whatever the heck that means, place. It is just so damn beautiful. So I love that there's 1,100 people because, you know, also ⁓ Alex spoke about Vada Austin's like egg ⁓ experiment. I'll just explain it quickly that like pasture raised or free range eggs ⁓ have like more coherent visual structures when you freeze them than cage raised eggs. David: and cave space, right? But like you said, not too many caves. Dawn: But like if you put a pasture raised egg next to a cage raised egg, oh, it's so sad, cage raised chickens, then like the next day they'll be, they'll both have a more coherent structure on the inside. And if you put one in the middle of 12, then the next day, all 12 of them will have a more coherent structure. So if we have 1,100 people who come and calibrate to the frequency of David: Thank you. Dawn: equity and then go out into their world and keep that frequency going for any amount of time, they're going to pass that along. And that feels like what the work is. So I don't know where the tipping point is, where we don't calibrate to each other when we come there. And therefore it's not doing the good work in the world, I guess. But for me, like knowing that it like, you know, 11 times itself since the first event. really creates a beautiful hope. And that's really what I got from both of them. Like, we can see how bad things could be going. And we all have hope. And we're here to like bolster each other's hope. And then we're like, to go out and be the coherent egg, you know, make it make a really structured omelet somehow or don't. don't know. The analogy went a little. David: You Dawn: But that is what I think is so amazing about the fact that there are more people coming and attending and people like you who received so much now get to give and similarly myself. was yeah such a, such a really special experience to be able to try and ⁓ help to ⁓ emphasize that field, that coherent field that, that ⁓ you know that beautiful, more, it's like organized isn't the right word, but aligned, congruent, aligned in the direction of the, let's take the whole world with us to the new earth. Not necessarily like force some people to, know, go to the 15 minute cities or maybe we can have the new world, the new earth in those like 15 minute cities. So yeah, I feel like I'll stop there. David: Beautiful. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I I guess, I believe. ⁓ We're either, I don't think we're far from critical mass. And I think a lot of it is the illusion of like what we're seeing, you when we go home and we're around stuff. And what comes to mind is... I remember during the 2020 times, someone's like, I'm in California or I'm in Canada or Australia. And it's terrible. And they just had this awful outlook. And then I would go, oh, I talked to somebody in Canada who's having their best life. And so a lot of it, there's a lot of perception there. I think or... Dawn: Mm. David: I believe that we're either near critical mass or there's enough people or something. And probably a lot of it is us just doubting ourselves and hiding and doing all that usual kind of stuff. ⁓ Yeah, like I've looked at things like, and this has been my thing for the 2020 times is finding all the communities and I like over community myself. ⁓ But I had the Weston A. Price Foundation. have chapters in different areas. The Freedom Cell Network, they have lots of people in different areas. And now the WayForward platform, ⁓ similar thing. And so I get what's funny, I'm a hypocrite here, but ⁓ I get a little frustrated, I guess, when People say they can't find people in their area. ⁓ And that's where I am. Like, go look at this map. Go look at that map. Go talk to this person. Like, trying to connect people. ⁓ And where I'm hypocritical is I haven't entirely found that for myself locally. But I know tons of people, not locally. ⁓ So, you know, a place to improve on. But. Dawn: Mmm. David: I'm like, we're out there. We're not going to 100 percent agree. I don't 100 percent agree with Alec on anything or any of my terrain friends or like anybody. I would have zero friends if I needed to like agree that strongly. ⁓ So like that's part of it is it's just not going to look perfect. I draw the line at status, though, the status. But. Dawn: Yeah. David: They're totally immoral and evil, but otherwise I like them. The. That, yeah, we're not going to 100 percent agree. It's not going to look exactly the way we think it's going to look. It's not going to be the hippie commune love and light. Everybody's just going to get along kind of thing. There are going to be messes or are going to have to bump into stuff and deal with our own work. But I. I feel that there's enough kind of almost people out there as long as we stop like narrowing the lens to social media or whatever, whatever kind of media says things. Cause yeah, I found a lot of people all over the place. Dawn: Hmm. Okay. I'm just really in love with the idea that we're close to critical mass or already at it, you know? ⁓ And ⁓ I agree, there are people everywhere. I live in a very small, I mean, well, it's big, there's lots of space, but very small couple of towns in the last five years and found so many people who were aligned and yeah. We don't all have to completely agree. That would be ridiculous if we did. If we know the nature of truth being it's impossible to describe that the Dao that can be named is not the Dao. Right? Like, how could we possibly agree? But I don't think we get closer to truth by just like slamming everybody else's opinions and then just sticking to our own. Right? So I want to tell a story about the last day that I was there because I missed the last, the second last day. But the last day that I was there, We were eating lunch and there was a dude checking out. So our friend Greg brought his biofield tuning forks and there was a dude checking them out. And he, I wish I had been in your Q and A because he was like, I just don't know about terrain because it says that or G and M because it says there are no infections, but if I take antibiotics, it'll like kill an infection. I was like, ⁓ okay. I'm like, well, know, Melissa Sells said, and he was like, I don't want to talk about her. And I was like, okay. And I was, I was just like, you know, like, ⁓ not none of them are exactly true. And yes, if you, you can kill an infection by using antibiotics for sure, depending, you know, I'm like, it doesn't always work. He's like, it always works. I'm like, ⁓ no, I've heard of like SIBO, it doesn't always work, but whatever. Right. but. Yeah. What do I have to say about that? It was so interesting because I, ⁓ like he was there. So he was definitely like onside for something. I don't, I don't know why. Like probably some level of holistic health, maybe some level of, of equity, but I did not start like chatting with him. Not nobody, nobody, like I didn't like ostracize him, but I was just like, ⁓ okay. That's cool. if you already have it figured out, I don't really know why you're the questions and I am not I was like you should go talk to those people because you and ⁓ and Don and ⁓ Jacob and Topher and we have or how he says all of you guys were over like right there and he's like no I don't I'm not going to and so that's sort of like what I have to say what am I trying to say with this ⁓ just that like Like everyone's opinion is allowed to exist anyway. That guy didn't need to get kicked out, you know, and probably like the seeds that were planted over the weekend might land in him somewhere. And if we're closed, like, all right, this is I was coming to is like, if we only had allopathy and we never had the idea of terrain, whatever the next truth is, that's going to sort of like take some of what worked over here and like, and evolve our understanding would not exist. ⁓ we won't ever get to that next step in human understanding and compassionate, heartfelt, heart-sensing ⁓ ways of being. So that's what I told him in the end. I didn't close off completely. I'm like, yeah, well, I don't know. But without terrain, we're not going to... Your new fighting terrain is probably going to be where this next breakthrough in the health understanding comes from anyway, maybe. So I don't know. That was the only... dissenting voice that I heard over the weekend that still seemed, I guess, kind of like almost angry, but also, it's not like he was angry. It was just like wanting to prove a point, but not being interested in ⁓ the argument. So does this move anything of this conversation forward? I'm not sure, but I did meet one person who made me think, well, that's cool. And ⁓ David: Mm-hmm. Dawn: I'm not going to like completely get rid of allopathy. Like if I'm cut deeply enough, I'm going to like go get sutures and I'm going to hope that they clean it. Right? Like there are things that we, that we know in any different paradigm of understanding, but the more that we can have and play into the more likely and then, and then let go of if it turns out not to be true, the more likely we are to come to a, I don't know, a human embodied. understanding of how things are. ⁓ that was the thing I wanted to say that's not about all this. I'm going to ramble a little or like just seg into. ⁓ I feel like I got this from Charles Eisenstein, but you were talking about like evidence earlier, right? And we think of like, I don't know, PubMed as evidence, you know, doing these like sort of, but you know what we don't take as evidence often enough is like lived experience. And that is like, we have, this is something I want to talk about in my talk, but just had too many things, so I didn't. But like, we deprioritize the truth of lived experience to such a crazy extent because of the way that we like, yeah, slice a bit of the person out, put some chemicals on it, and then look at it under a slide that ⁓ we don't even have avenues towards truth because lived experience is probably the only way to really like deeply ⁓ know something. So I don't know. David: Yes, and that has been one of my important points of getting us back to lived experience and like I Always try to be nuanced about it of like it's not a hundred percent because I could show you an optical illusion and you know You could believe it and whatever so our senses still can Be inaccurate at times, but yes getting back to the the lived feel the Dawn: Right. Right. David: Yeah, the lived experience, like what the actual symptoms are. this is an important point of like, for me, I have visible symptoms, expressions. Assuming the physical reality is real and that there's some common reality here. All of that. Yes, I have expressed symptoms and I can experience them of like the soft spot on my head didn't close. I can put my hand there, I can touch it and it's not solid and other people can observe that as well and whatever. So like that's an actual symptom and that is an actual description of what is going on with me. ⁓ Where we get lost is... Yes, all of the PubMed stuff, all of these experiments, they were based on lots of assumptions and stories. And if you track them all the way back, it turns out that those were assumptions. And it seems like every jump that the thing takes, the word assume turns into cause or something else becomes stronger. And so there's that. And then there's like the whole asymptomatic mess. There's latent, there's Dawn: Right. David: remission. So it's like, the thing's gone, but it could come back at any time. And you have to like manage and live in fear. And, you know, if you make a mistake, it's going to come back. And I have a little bit of that with like the depression piece of like, okay, maybe if I ate garbage for a week, I would probably feel terrible and it would come back or whatever. But, you know, it's not punishing me. It's not remission. It's Dawn: Great. David: I made some choices that weren't in my best interest kind of thing. ⁓ So yeah, and just like, ⁓ yeah, you didn't kill an infection. had no, or not you, but you ⁓ there's no observable, I killed an infection thing. There is an observable. I took a pill or I had symptoms. I was coughing and sneezing. I took a pill, coughing and sneezing went away. Dawn: Mm. David: That is the description. That is the lived experience that says nothing about what happens long term or any other things that's going on internally. And the terrain story, the terrain version of that is ⁓ pleomorphism. And this is when all the species of bacteria and fungus turn into different versions, turn into different things. They start out from microzyme, which is little, they're like the building blocks of life, which are found in the blood and in all things. It's kind of like the force or chi. Dawn: Yeah. Okay, love it. David: whatever your favorite energy thing is. they're, actually, yes, proud. They are, they are physical particles ⁓ that people can isolate and mess with. ⁓ We can't seem to kill them, which I don't even like saying that because I'm like, maybe we just haven't figured out a way to kill them yet. But, ⁓ They like heated them and all sorts of other stuff. So kind of like the like tardigrade, ⁓ which I don't know if that's real or not anyway, but they're kind of like that. And so, and they look like sparkles in the blood. ⁓ So we're made of sparkles and they turn, they've been observed ⁓ through the microscope without much manipulation to turn into different forms of bacteria and fungus. Dawn: Cool, okay. Yeah. David: And this is pleomorphism. So the microbes are bioremediating the terrain, so our internal environment. So the coughing and sneezing is we're trying to get rid of stuff, something that doesn't need to be there. We're just excreting it. The bacteria or the microbes are helping that process. They're the cleanup crew. Taking an antibiotic. Dawn: Mm. David: which means anti against life, ⁓ doesn't actually kill them, but causes them to pleomorph into something different because with the antibiotic, we've poisoned ourselves. And so now something different is needed to clean it all up. ⁓ So. ⁓ Dawn: Okay. David: It brings into question the whole idea of a sterile environment, because I think we can't actually make a sterile environment. Because, yeah, they just change into different things. ⁓ I think it's like they can go dormant. like they won't have an effect. So yeah, the symptoms go away. ⁓ The original problem isn't solved. So the stuff you're trying to get rid of goes deeper. And then the microbes turn into different things to Dawn: Bye. David: still try to help you out. They're always trying to help you out despite your best efforts. ⁓ So that's the terrain version of what antibiotics are doing. And then of course there's the belief and there's the spirit and all these other variables that could overpower whatever's going on with being poisoned as well. Dawn: Okay, well, thank you. So dude who was asking about this at Confluence sitting with me and Gregory Glick now, you know We'd love to hear in the comments wherever David posts this what your thoughts are on that I hope it opens your heart a little but he didn't seem I want to just say it didn't seem like His heart was closed anyway, like even though he was like, I don't know about this part, you know It didn't seem like that. So I just yeah, I want to come back to that for sure David: Thank Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I don't want people to change their minds just because they heard one talk. I don't like that either, because don't just don't just go with whatever the last speaker you listen to said. So it's taken me years of reading and learning, talking to the different teachers, asking questions. And I would like to shortcut that for people so it doesn't take everyone else that many years. Dawn: Right. Okay. David: But also, I don't want you to just change everything just because I said a thing. ⁓ And so this is where we do, where I want to remind people, lived experience. What's your experience? know, playing in the garden and you see the worms there and they're like helping out the plants or they're, you know, helping your compost pile. ⁓ You know, again, the contagion stuff, the lived experience there. Dawn: Right. David: And I would say Inner knowing I'm a little reluctant there because I think there are some caveats on what people call inner knowing but I I do Admit that there is something to it with with those caveats or nuances of You know, might not apply to everyone everywhere kind of thing You know, like intuitive eating is the thing that comes to mind of like, yes, you know what you need to eat and that may be for you in that one moment, but it's not for everyone everywhere all the time. So. Dawn: Yeah, and if you're going to listen to your intuition, need to learn to be discerning, right? Which I think ⁓ is, you know, what you teach people to do is not how to be discerning, but what discerning is. I feel like this is getting long, so we should probably wrap it up. I feel like there are so many things left to say. David: Yes. Dawn: So thank goodness there's gonna be another confluence next year. And yeah, I guess David, since this is your podcast, there was like one thing that you wanted people to leave this conversation feeling or understanding or what have you. Do you know what that is? David: Hmm. I would say the synchronicities and this really comes in with confluence is you think you're going to go to a talk and then you walk over there and then someone comes and talks to you and you have the deepest conversation of your life and you miss the entire talk and that's just how the whole thing goes. And then it happens over and over and over again. And that's. Dawn: Mmm, love. David: definitely a lesson for me in let's say spontaneity and flexibility in the I'm not gonna get the thing that I think I want ⁓ And Usually it's something better. Sometimes it's not but usually it's something better but that that is the I would say the theme for me of confluence is like a lot of this is the conversations and those sort of Things that just kind of show up Dawn: Hmm. David: And I'm sure that's a reflection for life, if I could listen to that. Dawn: Right. Thank you so much for bringing that up. We had so many synchronicities too. the same thing is like, couldn't, it's like you couldn't be at all of them. So you just had to trust in, no, trust God because you're gonna like show up to the right one and hear the right conversation and meet the right people. And most of the people I spoke with were both like blown away from some of those talks. And also we're like, yeah, but the best thing that happened is when I met this person and we had this conversation. you know, so thank you. Because it's true, like, we're drawn because of the speakers, because of the, like, the promise of the event. But the truth is, people with open hearts who are asking questions and doing their best to think freely need to gather in person so we can meet each other. Because otherwise, you know, otherwise we all got to work so hard on our damn hooks and pay for too many ads, right? Like, isn't it? David: you Dawn: so much nicer just to go and trust. And I feel like you said this in your talk about how when you were, I don't know, you were doing like health coaching and you were like, oh, I need a sound healing. I heard about sound healing. And then it was like, just happened to be that like the sound healer you were supposed to work with was a couple of blocks away doing a group event and you were the only person who showed up or something, right? And it's like, you could see this in Grinning City there too. And I feel like for lots of us, Synchronicities are so much more easily accessible when we're traveling or in peak experiences when the truth is, creator, this beautiful earth, the other humans in it are always presenting us with opportunities to like move forward on our soul's path, whatever it looks like. But damn, is it easier to like hit those when Alec organizes a sweet party for us to go to? David: Yes. Dawn: I think the last thing I would like to say is that I loved the mosh pit during ⁓ dub FX and I went to a lot of punk shows growing up. ⁓ so like, I was just like, it was like the sweetest, kindest mosh pit I've ever seen. And there were like kids on the outskirts and people like bouncing around like, ⁓ sorry, pet, pet, pet. So that was one of my favorite parts actually. ⁓ And I do think, and I didn't speak with this in my talk, but maybe next year, ⁓ getting together, listening to music, dancing, smiling, cheering, like that is a form of inebriation that you don't need to be inebriated to ⁓ feel. like when we dance and sing together, and we got this from Eileen in Sing the Body Electric, right? But that is... where I feel like that heart coherence, I don't know if it's heart coherence, I call it heart coherence, but I'm sure other people who talk about this more have a heart to heart kind of coherence is maybe what I mean. Like where all of our eggs get structured similarly so we can go out in the world and like help to raise the vibe, but not in a woo way, but in a woo way. It feels like the dancing and the party part. First of all, super wholesome at Confluence. love it. So wholesome. go to like, I go to EDM parties, right? So less wholesome. ⁓ And then it feels like a way to both elevate and ground into the felt experience of this festival, of this conference, this festifrance or this constable, I don't know. ⁓ And then carry the magic out, right? So yeah, yeah. I feel like we should have another chat in a couple of weeks when things have landed or something maybe. ⁓ But I don't know. Thank you so much for inviting me on the healing. Octopus Radio. David: Thank you for coming. You have any things to sell or share? No? Okay. I just want to put you under pressure because you do it for me. Dawn: Yeah. No Yeah Thank you. I probably should I don't know if people are Listening and or watching and want to find more from me I'm in the midst of figuring out who the F I am again and Creating more. So yeah, I post on social Instagram dawn underscore patron and I have a YouTube channel, Dawn Petrin, and I'm slowly, slowly opening up to creating art and philosophy ⁓ that is very, very interesting to me. And if you have a business and you need to be cajoled into doing the shit you probably already know you need to do, then I am an excellent cajoler. But thanks David for... David: You Dawn: putting me on the spot. I'm David's cajoler, so. David: No problem. Yes. That's great. Awesome. Dawn: Yeah, thank you.