Latest / The Body Pod / Best Of The Body Pod - Rethinking Nighttime Nutrition: Dr. Mike Ormsbee on Sleep, Metabolism & Fat Loss

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Best Of The Body Pod - Rethinking Nighttime Nutrition: Dr. Mike Ormsbee on Sleep, Metabolism & Fat Loss · The Body Pod

0:00
Speaker 1: Hey, body Pod family, we are back with another best
0:03
Speaker 1: of the body Pod, and this one genuinely changed the
0:06
Speaker 1: way I eat, and I think it will do the
0:08
Speaker 1: same for you. We sat down with doctor Mike Ormsby,
0:12
Speaker 1: professor at Florida State University and one of the leading
0:15
Speaker 1: researchers in nutrition, metabolism, and body composition. And I have
0:19
Speaker 1: to be honest, I walked into this conversation ready to
0:22
Speaker 1: push back and walked out completely converted. He makes the
0:26
Speaker 1: case that a small protein centered snack before bed is
0:29
Speaker 1: actually one of the smartest things an active midlife women
0:33
Speaker 1: can do, breaks down what really moves the needle on
0:37
Speaker 1: visceral fat, explains why resistance training is non negotiable if
0:41
Speaker 1: you are losing weight on a GLP one, and shares
0:44
Speaker 1: research on collagen for joint pain that turned me from
0:48
Speaker 1: completely indifferent into a believer. This one is packed with practical,
0:53
Speaker 1: research backed information you can use today. So let's get
0:57
Speaker 1: into the show. This is the best of the body Pod, right.
1:08
Speaker 1: Welcome doctor Mike Ormsby to the Body Pod. So excited
1:13
Speaker 1: to have you here today.
1:15
Speaker 2: You know, it's been really cool. We're just talking offline
1:17
Speaker 2: about some friends that are mutual to us, So I'm
1:21
Speaker 2: fine it happy to connect with you.
1:22
Speaker 1: Yes, And I actually just spoke with Abby Smith Ryan,
1:26
Speaker 1: who I know you know too, like thirty minutes ago,
1:29
Speaker 1: so that's great.
1:33
Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually was speaking with her this morning as well,
1:35
Speaker 2: probably before you could talk.
1:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's great.
1:40
Speaker 1: And I have to say, while I was diving into
1:43
Speaker 1: kind of the questions I wanted to ask you here,
1:46
Speaker 1: I discovered that you were a triathlete and that you're
1:49
Speaker 1: a cyclist.
1:50
Speaker 2: Yes. Well, I have to preface it. I was active
1:54
Speaker 2: in that space for quite a long time, but when
1:57
Speaker 2: we started having children is when that sort of changed
2:00
Speaker 2: for me. When the time commitment that I was trying
2:03
Speaker 2: to put into that wasn't my priority anymore. So yes,
2:06
Speaker 2: I love it. We still work with a lot with
2:08
Speaker 2: endurance athletes. I did pretty decent stuff like up to
2:12
Speaker 2: like a half iron Man distance in trathon. Wasn't winning anything,
2:15
Speaker 2: but had had a great time for a decade training
2:19
Speaker 2: and racing and all that.
2:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome me too. I stopped.
2:24
Speaker 1: I only did seventy point three, but I stopped twenty nineteen,
2:30
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, and that was my last one. Didn't know
2:35
Speaker 1: it at the time, but that was my last one,
2:36
Speaker 1: and now I just ride my bike, so I much
2:40
Speaker 1: prefer to cycle, and I go to Europe once once
2:44
Speaker 1: a year to kind of ride there. And there's the
2:48
Speaker 1: only sport that I can do NonStop and not ever
2:50
Speaker 1: get tired of.
2:51
Speaker 2: So that's great, and finding that one thing is so
2:55
Speaker 2: so useful.
2:56
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Well we're going to dive right in because
2:59
Speaker 1: I'm dying to get your take on. First of all,
3:03
Speaker 1: let's start with pre sleep feeding for females. And I
3:07
Speaker 1: have to say I have never my mind is completely
3:11
Speaker 1: blown on this because in every course that I've ever done,
3:15
Speaker 1: we've always been like, nope, circadian rhythm, don't you know two.
3:19
Speaker 3: To three hours before bed?
3:21
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, now I'm completely changing
3:24
Speaker 1: my mind. So let's start there and just tell me
3:27
Speaker 1: what your research has shown on this and what your
3:30
Speaker 1: thoughts are.
3:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great story because you're right, there's a
3:34
Speaker 2: lot of confusing things about the messaging and and just
3:38
Speaker 2: like most of these things, the nuances really matter, and
3:42
Speaker 2: what you would ask someone to do would really depend
3:44
Speaker 2: on what their goal is and how they even define
3:47
Speaker 2: eating before bed. And so let's sort of back up.
3:51
Speaker 2: I was I remember it was like two thousand and eight,
3:53
Speaker 2: nine and ten. I was trying to get like a
3:56
Speaker 2: niche topic to sort of dive into. And you know,
4:00
Speaker 2: I was coming off competing as an athlete in college
4:03
Speaker 2: as an ice hockey player and then getting into trathon,
4:06
Speaker 2: and I had a lot of friends who were in
4:08
Speaker 2: that space, but also in like the bodybuilding world and
4:10
Speaker 2: the figure world and all these different athletes, and every
4:13
Speaker 2: one of those athletes ate at night, and they all
4:16
Speaker 2: ate before bed late at night. They're having eggs or
4:19
Speaker 2: cottage cheese or a protein shake or maybe some fruit
4:23
Speaker 2: with it, something that was reasonable. It wasn't in all
4:26
Speaker 2: out like fast food go or pizza or ice cream
4:30
Speaker 2: at that time, but it was food to fuel for
4:32
Speaker 2: the next day. And so right about that same time,
4:35
Speaker 2: The Biggest Loser was on TV, and I remember hearing
4:37
Speaker 2: all the trainers on that saying, you know, don't eat
4:39
Speaker 2: after six or seven pm. There are these cutoff times,
4:42
Speaker 2: and so that was sort of my first dive into
4:46
Speaker 2: It was around twenty ten to twenty twelve. We did
4:48
Speaker 2: a very first study in that space, and we're like,
4:50
Speaker 2: you know what, let's just see what's going on. Why
4:53
Speaker 2: can't we eat at that time, what is the problem.
4:56
Speaker 2: And so we took a stance of like an applied
4:58
Speaker 2: research laboratory metabolic aspects of pre sleep feeding and exactly
5:04
Speaker 2: sort of like what was tolerable and we wanted to
5:07
Speaker 2: know good or bad, Like I'd like to know for
5:09
Speaker 2: myself was it a good thing to eat these things?
5:11
Speaker 2: Or was it bad? And so in that context of
5:15
Speaker 2: smaller protein centric tight meals or snacks, looking at you know,
5:20
Speaker 2: probably less than three hundred calories, a lot of the
5:22
Speaker 2: work is right around two fifty or even just shy
5:24
Speaker 2: of that of a protein dominant food looks like it
5:28
Speaker 2: was actually either doing nothing or was a benefit to
5:32
Speaker 2: certain markers. And so the story there is actually pretty
5:36
Speaker 2: pretty neat. So our lab and one of the lab
5:40
Speaker 2: overseas was doing this and they were looking at muscle metabolism,
5:42
Speaker 2: we were looking at fat metabolism and what and so
5:45
Speaker 2: we sort of paired all these topics together and like,
5:49
Speaker 2: let me ask you this, Hailey, like when you think
5:50
Speaker 2: of pre sleep feeding, what time are you thinking of
5:53
Speaker 2: when you think about eating it? And are you thinking
5:55
Speaker 2: about your largest meal? And there's the confusion like is
5:59
Speaker 2: it dinner where it's like a large mixed macronutrient meal, carbons, fats, proteins,
6:03
Speaker 2: the whole thing, and it's five six eight hundred, nine
6:06
Speaker 2: hundred calories and it's one bowlus. With that definition, there
6:11
Speaker 2: probably is not a great reason to eat that before bed,
6:14
Speaker 2: like right before bed, and then how long after that
6:17
Speaker 2: meal before you go to sleep, And so we have
6:19
Speaker 2: a very strict definition of it. It's two hours after
6:22
Speaker 2: dinner and within thirty minutes of going to bed is
6:26
Speaker 2: how we define pre sleep feeding with these protein dominant foods.
6:30
Speaker 2: And that's we focused on protein because way of a
6:33
Speaker 2: big interest in protein, but also it was like what
6:36
Speaker 2: people were doing. We wanted to see what was actually
6:38
Speaker 2: happening in these more athletic contexts to people who were
6:42
Speaker 2: interested in health and performance and competing again the next day.
6:46
Speaker 2: So with that definition, it changes it right Like Haley, like,
6:50
Speaker 2: let's say you work out at night. You work all
6:52
Speaker 2: day long, you're working, mom, you finish work, you get
6:55
Speaker 2: your kids to bed, and then that's your only time
6:57
Speaker 2: and you're so dedicated that you say eight to nine pm,
7:01
Speaker 2: nine to ten pm is the only time I have
7:03
Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. Then hey, let's say you
7:04
Speaker 2: exhaust yourself and you really put in a good effort
7:07
Speaker 2: at that workout. If you then want to also, say,
7:12
Speaker 2: compete in your race, your cycling race the next morning,
7:15
Speaker 2: or another really good effort tomorrow, you better eat because
7:19
Speaker 2: you need to restock those fuel sources in order to
7:22
Speaker 2: compete well. And if you think about outside of like
7:25
Speaker 2: the individual sport athletes, if you're in a team setting
7:28
Speaker 2: and you have doubles in it's summertime and you're trying
7:31
Speaker 2: to you know, compete hard every day for like a
7:35
Speaker 2: camp scenario or something like that, then you'd better be
7:39
Speaker 2: eating at nine. And so sometimes it's not even is
7:41
Speaker 2: it good or bad, it's like this is required. You
7:44
Speaker 2: have to do this to compete. Here's a good example.
7:47
Speaker 2: We were really fortunate to do work with a race
7:51
Speaker 2: called the Florida Ultraman. Have you ever heard of this race?
7:53
Speaker 3: It's a not that one, but I'm familiar with.
7:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the oilier Man's insane, right. They're so they're
8:00
Speaker 2: really really long races and the athletes are awesome, and
8:03
Speaker 2: we had a great relationship with the floor Ultraman race director,
8:06
Speaker 2: so we got access to the athletes and it's a
8:09
Speaker 2: three day triathlon and the time stops at the end
8:12
Speaker 2: of each day. So like the faster you finish on Friday,
8:16
Speaker 2: you have more time to eat, recover, do what you
8:19
Speaker 2: need before you go to bed and wake up super
8:21
Speaker 2: early the next day. But if you're finishing in the
8:24
Speaker 2: evening and you're not a fast finisher, but you're going
8:26
Speaker 2: to finish, you're finishing and it's dark out and then
8:30
Speaker 2: you have to get up at five in the morning
8:31
Speaker 2: to do it again, and you you actually ride, run,
8:33
Speaker 2: or swim all day long for three days straight. And
8:37
Speaker 2: in that scenario, if you get off your bike and
8:39
Speaker 2: used to eating gels and drinking you know, liquid cover
8:42
Speaker 2: hygh rates and proteins, and then you try to go
8:45
Speaker 2: to bed and do it again, you will not make
8:47
Speaker 2: it to the finish line. And so that's what I
8:49
Speaker 2: always mean by nuance. And so even the bigger companies
8:52
Speaker 2: that you might see on social media that often are
8:55
Speaker 2: saying we've got white paper evidence showing that heart variability
8:59
Speaker 2: is disrupted and your sleep is disrupted, the nuance isn't there.
9:04
Speaker 2: So I always, as you know, much as I know
9:06
Speaker 2: I shouldn't do it, I always try to comment and
9:09
Speaker 2: say it for who and in what setting, and are
9:12
Speaker 2: you working out in the evening. Are you perhaps you're
9:16
Speaker 2: an athlete that's struggling with energy availability, and in that sense,
9:20
Speaker 2: using that night time slot to get one more feeding
9:22
Speaker 2: is a good idea just to get total energy up
9:24
Speaker 2: for that particular person. So there are so many nuances
9:28
Speaker 2: to it, and so there's where I'm commenting, like, you know,
9:30
Speaker 2: for who, what scenario? Are you an athlete? Are you
9:33
Speaker 2: competing again tomorrow? And what's your ultimate goal at the
9:37
Speaker 2: end of all this stuff. So there's sort of the
9:39
Speaker 2: nutshell of it, and I'm happy to go through the nuances,
9:41
Speaker 2: but I figured i'd lay it up with that sort
9:44
Speaker 2: of a background.
9:45
Speaker 1: No, that's great because I think for me specifically in
9:48
Speaker 1: these groups, I'm always trying to teach alongside my experts
9:51
Speaker 1: to fuel for the demands of the training session and
9:54
Speaker 1: whatever that training session is. We know that we need
9:57
Speaker 1: more carbohydrate for potentially a really hard hit session or
10:01
Speaker 1: really hard strengths training session, but maybe not as much
10:03
Speaker 1: for if you're going for a walk the next day
10:05
Speaker 1: or whatever. And I only work with with middle aged women,
10:09
Speaker 1: so women pretty much in this pery slash postmenopause space,
10:13
Speaker 1: which is getting a lot of chatter if you if
10:17
Speaker 1: you haven't noticed.
10:19
Speaker 2: Oh I noticed. Yeah that's great, it's it's phenomenal.
10:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, good and bad. But here is where the science.
10:27
Speaker 1: I'm super intrigued with any expert to kind of break
10:31
Speaker 1: up your take on if this population. So if you
10:36
Speaker 1: everything that you just said, now, if we're taking a
10:39
Speaker 1: you know, middle aged woman that already has most women
10:43
Speaker 1: are time crunched. They're probably not recovering well or sleeping
10:48
Speaker 1: great in this perimenopausal space. So you already have these
10:52
Speaker 1: these things going against you, even if you are healthy
10:55
Speaker 1: and eating well and blah blah blah. But for someone
10:58
Speaker 1: that isn't really competing and is just wanting to get
11:02
Speaker 1: up the next day and say, Hayley, tell me what
11:04
Speaker 1: to do in the weights room, does this matter as
11:08
Speaker 1: much or is it kind of negligible? Of well, are
11:11
Speaker 1: you hungry a little bit before bed? What time did
11:13
Speaker 1: you eat dinner? I mean I go to bed early.
11:16
Speaker 1: So for me, I like to be tucked in by
11:20
Speaker 1: eight point fifty nine.
11:23
Speaker 2: Nice.
11:24
Speaker 3: Does it always work? It doesn't always work. But now
11:27
Speaker 3: that my two.
11:28
Speaker 1: Teenagers are out of the house and I only have
11:29
Speaker 1: one at home, it makes a little bit easier. But
11:33
Speaker 1: in that situation. Does that matter for not looking at performance?
11:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say it almost matters more. And so
11:42
Speaker 2: and here's why. If you're in that scenario, which just
11:46
Speaker 2: sounds like everybody who's listening to this is we still
11:51
Speaker 2: have a trouble meeting our total daily protein needs. It's
11:54
Speaker 2: just it is. It is hard to hit those sometimes
11:56
Speaker 2: even if you have the best laid plan. And what
11:59
Speaker 2: we're fine is that it's probably not magic of eating
12:02
Speaker 2: at protein before bed. It's the magic of having one
12:05
Speaker 2: more feeding time to get your total daily protein intake
12:09
Speaker 2: to a level that you want it to be at
12:11
Speaker 2: for all the other benefits that that brings, and you
12:14
Speaker 2: do not have to be worried about it adding fat
12:17
Speaker 2: mass and I can show the data, we can talk
12:20
Speaker 2: through the data on that, and so psychologically it allows
12:23
Speaker 2: you the freedom as someone who is in that space,
12:26
Speaker 2: super crunched on time. You didn't get the protein and
12:29
Speaker 2: you needed, your kids are whining and complaining, and you
12:32
Speaker 2: need to figure out life, and then guess what, You've
12:36
Speaker 2: got one more chance to top off your protein stores.
12:40
Speaker 2: In this particular scenario, it's easy because you're already at
12:43
Speaker 2: home and you have access to those foods. It's hopefully
12:46
Speaker 2: a quiet time when you're trying to do your destress
12:49
Speaker 2: and start your bedtime routine perhaps, and you don't have
12:53
Speaker 2: to worry about any of the issues that people are
12:55
Speaker 2: afraid of with adding fat or fat gain or any
12:58
Speaker 2: of it. When we make the caveat of small protein
13:02
Speaker 2: centric meals. And so here's the example. We have a
13:07
Speaker 2: technique in our lab Helly, it's really cool. It's called microdialysis.
13:11
Speaker 2: And with microdialysis, we can insert these very small probes
13:15
Speaker 2: into any tissue that we want. Think of it almost
13:18
Speaker 2: like a belly piercing. So we pinch a layer of
13:21
Speaker 2: skin in your abdominal belly fat, for example, and we
13:24
Speaker 2: put a small needle into that tissue, remove the needle,
13:28
Speaker 2: and we leave this flexible probe underneath the skin. And
13:31
Speaker 2: in that probe, I can end up measuring what's coming
13:34
Speaker 2: out of your fat cells in any condition. So it
13:36
Speaker 2: can be sleeping, it can be exercise, it can be
13:39
Speaker 2: whatever sort of stimulus we give to the body, could
13:43
Speaker 2: be eating. And when we've done this, we've done this
13:46
Speaker 2: in men and in women, and in both cases we
13:49
Speaker 2: don't see any change in overnight fat coming out of
13:53
Speaker 2: the fat cell, which would be called lipolysis. And so
13:56
Speaker 2: with lipolysis staying no different than a placebo, we know
14:01
Speaker 2: that it's not changing insolent enough or any of the
14:05
Speaker 2: hormones really to have an effect that's dampening or lowering
14:09
Speaker 2: the fat metabolism response. It all stays elevated, no matter
14:13
Speaker 2: if you have nothing or if you have this protein drink.
14:16
Speaker 2: And so if the net gain is nothing, but you're
14:18
Speaker 2: having the advantage of a more protein in your day,
14:21
Speaker 2: it's a win. It's a win across the board. And
14:24
Speaker 2: so that's to me, would be for this what your
14:28
Speaker 2: question was like, these very busy forty plus year old
14:32
Speaker 2: women who've got lives and children and trying to, you know,
14:35
Speaker 2: do everything for everybody. Probably this is a time when
14:39
Speaker 2: you can say, Hey, this time is for me. I've
14:41
Speaker 2: got I can have a shake, I can have a
14:43
Speaker 2: little bit of cottage cheese or yogurt. Now, not all
14:46
Speaker 2: of those foods have been tested, but my suspicion is
14:49
Speaker 2: that all of those protein centric foods would be really
14:52
Speaker 2: good options for this particular example.
14:56
Speaker 3: Oh, I did it last night. I tested the theory.
15:00
Speaker 1: I have been so busy the last few weeks that
15:02
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm barely I mean, usually I'm pretty good
15:05
Speaker 1: and pretty routine eat the same things, roughly the same foods,
15:10
Speaker 1: but I've just been running on empty and so these
15:14
Speaker 1: late time kind of meal snacks, and I think that's
15:17
Speaker 1: the difference. So if you're saying, if we look at
15:20
Speaker 1: sleep architecture, then when we hear about like heavy food,
15:25
Speaker 1: like food sitting in the belly and not digesting and
15:27
Speaker 1: we want that all digested before ideally we go to sleep,
15:31
Speaker 1: or where the sleep hygiene conversation comes in, then this
15:35
Speaker 1: really is just like it is what you said, a
15:38
Speaker 1: snack of protein. It's not having you know, a glass
15:41
Speaker 1: of wine before bed. All of these things that we
15:43
Speaker 1: know will hinder sleep architect like the sleep efficiency.
15:47
Speaker 3: So I think that could be.
15:49
Speaker 1: Really helpful, especially for women that aren't as afraid that
15:53
Speaker 1: it's gonna make them fat, but they're they're on limited
15:56
Speaker 1: calories because most of the time they're coming to me
15:58
Speaker 1: for body composition help, and so you know, that window
16:03
Speaker 1: is how do you get us all of this protein in,
16:05
Speaker 1: which then takes me to my next question of intermittent fasting.
16:10
Speaker 3: All right, let's take a quick break to hear from
16:12
Speaker 3: some of the body Pod sponsors. We'll be right back.
16:25
Speaker 2: This is a.
16:25
Speaker 1: Huge conversation in the mental puzzle space of do we
16:29
Speaker 1: fast do we not?
16:31
Speaker 3: Usually the answer I'm curious.
16:33
Speaker 1: Your opinion is it depends which you know makes it
16:37
Speaker 1: hard because everyone wants a specific answer for everyone and
16:41
Speaker 1: that's really hard to do. But what are your thoughts
16:45
Speaker 1: on that, because for me, it shortens the protein feeding
16:48
Speaker 1: window if we're just looking at hitting protein overall.
16:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, So kind of two things to close out or
16:56
Speaker 2: maybe part of that other conversation. I think it's important
16:58
Speaker 2: too that people understand that what I'm referring to in
17:02
Speaker 2: all of these our research studies with many people, and
17:06
Speaker 2: if you know that anytime you eat anything you don't
17:08
Speaker 2: sleep well, then that's true for you and you need
17:11
Speaker 2: to pay attention to that. So even if the literature
17:13
Speaker 2: says one thing, you need to know how you respond
17:16
Speaker 2: to it. So I love how you said you experimented
17:18
Speaker 2: with it last night, and that's what really matters when
17:21
Speaker 2: it comes down to it, is how do you respond
17:23
Speaker 2: to it? So I think that's an important piece to this.
17:26
Speaker 2: And one of the other things we didn't go into
17:29
Speaker 2: too much detail in that space was like the outcome
17:32
Speaker 2: measures and so outside of fat metabolism, so we see
17:36
Speaker 2: that there's either no change or an increase in morning
17:38
Speaker 2: resting metabolism, which means that you've been sort of revving
17:41
Speaker 2: just a little bit higher all night from some of
17:44
Speaker 2: these protein centric drinks. So that potentially could be helpful
17:48
Speaker 2: if you expanded that over a long period of time.
17:50
Speaker 2: So that's sort of one. It's also important to know
17:54
Speaker 2: that if you're new to exercise or you've never done
17:56
Speaker 2: it and you're just starting. In our study, which was
18:00
Speaker 2: women in this category, we gave them the pre sleep
18:04
Speaker 2: feeding and it didn't actually help much or at all
18:08
Speaker 2: with like glascemic control even with the protein drink, so
18:12
Speaker 2: small changes and like insulin sensitivity and blood glucose which
18:16
Speaker 2: were not going the direction you would want. Okay, So
18:18
Speaker 2: that made me think, oh, maybe we shouldn't do it
18:20
Speaker 2: for people who are sedentary, and so we decided to
18:22
Speaker 2: use that same group and add exercise and so just
18:25
Speaker 2: four weeks of including just three days of exercise and
18:28
Speaker 2: pre sleep feeding, and this overweight to some of the
18:32
Speaker 2: women had obesity middle aged group, if they added exercise
18:37
Speaker 2: and did the pre sleep feeding, absolutely abolished any metabolic problems,
18:41
Speaker 2: and so the exercise is such a sledgehammer in driving
18:45
Speaker 2: our metabolic responses to things that that pre sleep feeding
18:48
Speaker 2: then was ended up being either the advantage or no
18:51
Speaker 2: change while the exercise needed to be in there. So
18:55
Speaker 2: if you're someone who's sedentary and just adding in pre
18:58
Speaker 2: sleep feeding, then I think you would need to watch
19:00
Speaker 2: blood gluecose levels. Again, not many studies in that exact space,
19:04
Speaker 2: but from the one or two that exists, I would
19:06
Speaker 2: say be cautious with that approach, so just you know,
19:10
Speaker 2: make sure it's not all everything's positive. There are pluses
19:12
Speaker 2: and minuses to anything that's chosen. And then some of
19:16
Speaker 2: your clients and people who are interested, maybe they do
19:19
Speaker 2: train hard and they are elite at their age or
19:22
Speaker 2: their age group athletes or something. That's where this could
19:25
Speaker 2: be interesting, and that there are data showing that after
19:28
Speaker 2: an evening battle of exercise this was soccer, if you
19:32
Speaker 2: had pre sleep protein, it actually had things like reactive
19:37
Speaker 2: strength indects and counter movement jump were able to come
19:40
Speaker 2: back to normal faster after a hard game. So theoretically
19:44
Speaker 2: you could compete more or better, or maybe just a
19:47
Speaker 2: little bit harder each time you do compete because that
19:50
Speaker 2: lasted for three days. The benefit was higher for performance
19:52
Speaker 2: for roughly three days. So that's there. And then there's
19:56
Speaker 2: also an advantage to muscle protein synthesis. So the other
20:00
Speaker 2: I was talking about overseas that runs this as Luke
20:02
Speaker 2: van Luhn and his group, and they've found in a
20:05
Speaker 2: ton of different studies that it actually increases muscle protein
20:08
Speaker 2: synthesis while you're sleeping with a small protein dominant snack
20:14
Speaker 2: in their hands. They actually have seen over twelve weeks
20:17
Speaker 2: of training with this strategy, where again it was used
20:21
Speaker 2: to increase total daily protein. They just took it before bed.
20:24
Speaker 2: They had better outcomes for like cross sectional area, muscle strength,
20:28
Speaker 2: all the things that you might be looking for for
20:30
Speaker 2: a trained individual who's like a gym goer wanting to
20:33
Speaker 2: add muscle to their frame. So a little more context
20:36
Speaker 2: there with what outcomes people are finding. And again it's
20:39
Speaker 2: a little bit mixed. But what I'm telling you is
20:40
Speaker 2: like the summary of the good points and that's where
20:43
Speaker 2: you would use this strategy.
20:45
Speaker 3: Where have you been for the last three years?
20:49
Speaker 2: So, Haley, I think it's exciting. I think it's a
20:52
Speaker 2: neat place, but again it's end of one and that
20:54
Speaker 2: brings me back to your original question, which was intermittent fasting.
20:57
Speaker 2: Now intermittent fasting. As you said, you probably have five experts.
21:01
Speaker 2: They all say something different, or at least it's confusing
21:05
Speaker 2: enough to say it depends, and I'm not going to
21:07
Speaker 2: help you out all there. It is still depends. But
21:09
Speaker 2: I'll tell you this from my experience working with lots
21:12
Speaker 2: of different people in research, studies and even in coaching,
21:16
Speaker 2: it's a great tool. It's a fantastic tool if you'd
21:18
Speaker 2: like to intermitt fast and so I never pushed someone
21:21
Speaker 2: away from it if they like it. Some people have
21:23
Speaker 2: lifestyles where it really just suits them to wake up
21:26
Speaker 2: and not eat for a while, and some people don't.
21:28
Speaker 2: You wake up and you're starving, and so for me,
21:30
Speaker 2: I always push, like, follow what's natural to you and
21:34
Speaker 2: then just make the best choices with that. So we
21:37
Speaker 2: have folks who have used internment fasting absolutely love it.
21:40
Speaker 2: It shortens the eating window, can control calories, and as
21:44
Speaker 2: you probably know, all the data like if you just
21:46
Speaker 2: choose to do a slightly clerk restricted and eat all
21:49
Speaker 2: day at the end of a longer period of time,
21:52
Speaker 2: you tend to have very similar outcomes. So it's a
21:54
Speaker 2: great tool. If you like it, use it. If you
21:57
Speaker 2: don't like it, don't use it. But this certainly is
22:00
Speaker 2: something that would that would work with this protein feeding
22:03
Speaker 2: that I'm talking about. Depending on where you leigh, where
22:07
Speaker 2: you decide to bracket your start and end time with eating.
22:10
Speaker 2: And so if you if you bracket that in the morning,
22:12
Speaker 2: clearly you wouldn't be having that at night. If you
22:15
Speaker 2: bracket that in the middle of the day, or you
22:16
Speaker 2: stop around eight pm, like twelve to eight for example,
22:19
Speaker 2: again you wouldn't have something later. But I will tell
22:22
Speaker 2: you this. I read a lot of studies that talk
22:23
Speaker 2: about fasting or intermittent fasting, and then you read the
22:26
Speaker 2: details and it's like, oh, but we allow an essential
22:29
Speaker 2: amino acid drink. Oh but we allow a protein drink.
22:32
Speaker 2: And so it's like, is it really fasting or is
22:35
Speaker 2: it not? And so even if the title says intermittent fasting,
22:38
Speaker 2: there are several different times I've looked through and it's like, yeah,
22:42
Speaker 2: it's fasting. But we do allow tea, We do allow
22:45
Speaker 2: you know, things that have small amount of calories. We
22:49
Speaker 2: do allow an essential meno acid drink just to maintain
22:52
Speaker 2: you know, amino acid levels. In the system, so you
22:55
Speaker 2: have to look at that quite quite a sort of
22:57
Speaker 2: a nuanced lens. But for me, everything is possible to
23:01
Speaker 2: be a benefit, but it has to fit your lifestyle
23:03
Speaker 2: because if you can't stick to it, it's never going
23:05
Speaker 2: to work.
23:06
Speaker 1: Okay, that's the mic drop right there, because this is
23:11
Speaker 1: while I think the Internet and this day and age
23:16
Speaker 1: is so amazing, it's information overload. And then you get
23:21
Speaker 1: these you know, niche populations. Well for you know, this
23:25
Speaker 1: specific population of women that say I'm working with and
23:29
Speaker 1: then they hear, you know, well I can't do this, now,
23:31
Speaker 1: I should do this, Now, I shouldn't do this, now
23:33
Speaker 1: I should do this. And it's this back and forth
23:36
Speaker 1: game with each new article that comes out. And then
23:40
Speaker 1: women come to me and they're like, just tell me
23:44
Speaker 1: what to do, tell me exactly what to eat, and
23:46
Speaker 1: tell me what exercise to do, and I'll do it
23:49
Speaker 1: to a team. I'm really good at following through. And
23:51
Speaker 1: it's never that simple because we're all unique and individual
23:57
Speaker 1: And while there are some do you see some from
24:00
Speaker 1: your perspective, If we're looking at this, what are the
24:03
Speaker 1: overarching themes that we really have to nail besides the
24:07
Speaker 1: nuances of whether you're going to intermittent fast or whatever.
24:11
Speaker 1: In the nutrition and fitness space, yeah.
24:14
Speaker 2: I mean everyone's going to talk about which leverage to
24:16
Speaker 2: pull and what's you know, or you hear some conversations about,
24:20
Speaker 2: you know, stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, and
24:23
Speaker 2: that's where the nuance is crazy, Like you probably have
24:26
Speaker 2: had these discussions like I don't know about you, but
24:28
Speaker 2: I don't have time to always, you know, to do
24:30
Speaker 2: everything perfectly to get two training sessions of cold bath,
24:34
Speaker 2: look at the sun, you know, do all the different things.
24:37
Speaker 2: And so you have to choose with the busy lifestyle,
24:39
Speaker 2: what are the biggest things? And this to me, you
24:42
Speaker 2: can really get that into three spaces exercise, nutrition, and sleep.
24:46
Speaker 2: And if those big rocks are under control, the little
24:51
Speaker 2: other pebbles that fall out are much easier to manage.
24:55
Speaker 2: Or you just aren't in a situation where you're trying
24:58
Speaker 2: to be on stage or compete and a thing. You
25:01
Speaker 2: just want to have a lifestyle where you feel pretty good.
25:03
Speaker 2: You can handle your lifestyle with your spouse and your kids.
25:07
Speaker 2: And in that sense, those three big items are exactly
25:11
Speaker 2: where I'd be landing. And then I might think about
25:13
Speaker 2: all right, nutrition is pretty well dialed in, but I
25:15
Speaker 2: don't really like eating in the morning, So maybe intermitt
25:18
Speaker 2: fasting is something that I would try, And you know,
25:20
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even get there until I had the basics
25:23
Speaker 2: lined up for those other areas. And Haley, I agree
25:26
Speaker 2: with you. Like people all the time, they're like, I
25:28
Speaker 2: don't get it. I was told to not eat before bed.
25:30
Speaker 2: I was told to eat before bed, and so I
25:33
Speaker 2: think it can be far easier than that. And I
25:36
Speaker 2: think it's a step wiser proach. What's the simplest possible
25:40
Speaker 2: thing you can change today that you barely even notice
25:43
Speaker 2: it in your lifestyle that would then add up over
25:46
Speaker 2: time to be a big impact. So, for example, one
25:49
Speaker 2: of the courses that I have online, we finish it
25:51
Speaker 2: with these small steps, and it's like every chapter in
25:53
Speaker 2: that book is where do you finish And what's one
25:56
Speaker 2: action item you can take today? Maybe it's increasing your
25:59
Speaker 2: approaching and take just a little bit and that's all
26:01
Speaker 2: you do for like four weeks to dial in that habit.
26:05
Speaker 2: Or maybe it's something like you know your vitamin D
26:07
Speaker 2: is super low, and so you take a vitamin supplement
26:09
Speaker 2: and that's the only thing we ask you to change,
26:11
Speaker 2: and your clients might be like, what in the world
26:13
Speaker 2: I'm paying you to do this? And then it's like, yeah,
26:16
Speaker 2: but if you stick with me, this is the key
26:18
Speaker 2: is getting all of these big ticket items where it's
26:21
Speaker 2: so routine you stop thinking about it. And so for me,
26:24
Speaker 2: those are those are the big the bigger sort of
26:27
Speaker 2: levers that I can pull in order to sort of
26:32
Speaker 2: set my boundary, set my baseline for where I can
26:35
Speaker 2: eventually get to. I always know I can fall back
26:37
Speaker 2: on these three things exercise, nutrition, and sleep.
26:41
Speaker 1: So true, and this is what I have with with
26:43
Speaker 1: some of my you know, high profile clients that are
26:47
Speaker 1: that are you know, running companies or whatever.
26:49
Speaker 3: They don't I don't.
26:50
Speaker 1: They don't have time for me to micromanage them at all.
26:53
Speaker 1: I mean, and really I'm just like, okay, do if
26:55
Speaker 1: we do the basics, it doesn't the nuances that come
26:59
Speaker 1: from again, like you said, eating before or eating after,
27:03
Speaker 1: or you know, doing this kind of cardio versus this
27:07
Speaker 1: kind of cardio. At the end of the day, are
27:08
Speaker 1: you doing something resistance training, are you sleeping well, recovering well?
27:13
Speaker 1: And is your nutrition pretty on point.
27:17
Speaker 2: About it, no doubt about it. It's so boring. Do
27:21
Speaker 2: you know what the name of that course is. It's
27:23
Speaker 2: called Changing Body Composition through Diet and Exercise. So nobody
27:27
Speaker 2: wants to click on it, but it is. It's just
27:29
Speaker 2: like hearing me in a lecture and I'm going through
27:31
Speaker 2: lecture by lecture what do these things actually mean? And
27:34
Speaker 2: it's just a science. You know. We ended with like
27:36
Speaker 2: these are the tools. Hopefully now you have the ability
27:39
Speaker 2: to use those tools as you want. And I think
27:42
Speaker 2: you know you mentioned resistance training and that's such a
27:44
Speaker 2: critical piece to this and I think I think it's
27:48
Speaker 2: the part. And I know you have other guests to
27:50
Speaker 2: kind of go through these things, but that piece is
27:53
Speaker 2: so critical. We always say, like, if you want to
27:55
Speaker 2: be a smaller pair, then just do the slow aerobic exercise.
28:00
Speaker 2: You'll be a smaller pair, but you won't actually change
28:03
Speaker 2: the way that pair looks. Then you have to add
28:05
Speaker 2: in the resistance training to sort of sculpt out what
28:07
Speaker 2: that will eventually look like. And so one of the
28:10
Speaker 2: studies we're running right now might be of interest. It's
28:12
Speaker 2: specifically in postment appalls of women, and these are women
28:15
Speaker 2: that are also pre diabetic and either overweight or have obesity,
28:21
Speaker 2: and we are directly, directly for the first time, comparing
28:25
Speaker 2: aerobic exercise to resistance exercise on outcomes of fat metabolism.
28:30
Speaker 2: And this is a five year study we've been running now, Haley, Okay,
28:35
Speaker 2: do tell it's phenomenal. And so these women are awesome,
28:40
Speaker 2: They really want help. They come to us because of that,
28:43
Speaker 2: and they get training for twelve weeks and they get
28:46
Speaker 2: it's either straight aerobic training or straight resistance training. And
28:49
Speaker 2: in most of the research you probably have seen to date,
28:53
Speaker 2: it's aerobic heavy. It's switching now like a little more
28:56
Speaker 2: resistance training and women specifically, but a lot of it's
28:58
Speaker 2: aerobic dominant research for weight and control. And that's because
29:03
Speaker 2: when you compare twenty minutes of running to twenty minutes
29:06
Speaker 2: of weightlifting, your calorie burn is going to be far
29:08
Speaker 2: higher in the running. You just say you're burning more
29:12
Speaker 2: calories with that. And so there's a couple other studies
29:16
Speaker 2: who have tried to pair these together, but they paired
29:17
Speaker 2: them on time, so you would work out for say
29:20
Speaker 2: forty five minutes in both groups, but the calorie burn
29:22
Speaker 2: was so much higher in one that it really shifted
29:25
Speaker 2: the conversation. And so what we've done is we've instead
29:28
Speaker 2: of matching time, we're matching calorie output. So you exercise
29:32
Speaker 2: to burn a certain number of calories, and so the
29:34
Speaker 2: resistance training group ends up working out longer, but they're
29:38
Speaker 2: burning the same amount of calories as the other group.
29:40
Speaker 2: And so now we're finally to a point where we're
29:42
Speaker 2: getting some data back and you have plenty of things
29:45
Speaker 2: coming out of this lab based on what we're finding.
29:48
Speaker 2: But it's just awesome to watch how the strength training
29:52
Speaker 2: particularly is improving what you would think strength. And then
29:55
Speaker 2: you see the confidence come up. You see all of
29:59
Speaker 2: the ability to sort of handle the stresses that we're
30:01
Speaker 2: thrown at them sort of come up a little bit.
30:03
Speaker 2: And even the aerobic group they're new to exercise, so
30:07
Speaker 2: it's great. But then they all are starting to say,
30:09
Speaker 2: I wish I was doing some resistance training. I can
30:12
Speaker 2: see that group over there, I want I want to
30:13
Speaker 2: join that group. So we have fantastic, awesome participants in
30:19
Speaker 2: a whole team here that that handles the training and
30:22
Speaker 2: all of the outcomes. But we're looking at how how
30:25
Speaker 2: are they utilizing fat, how are they putting on fat?
30:27
Speaker 2: What exactly is going on with microbialysis? And biopsies and
30:30
Speaker 2: all the science techniques we can throw at them, and
30:34
Speaker 2: so we should have some really good answers here. And
30:36
Speaker 2: the hope is this, Haley, is that at the end
30:39
Speaker 2: of it, that the guidance on what to do is
30:44
Speaker 2: less of uh anecdote where we know we should be
30:49
Speaker 2: resistance training, and it's more of they put these things
30:53
Speaker 2: head to head and either there was no difference in
30:56
Speaker 2: the fat metabolism piece of it, or there was a
30:59
Speaker 2: greater improvement from being able to resistance train and add
31:02
Speaker 2: these other pieces of weight and strength to it, which
31:05
Speaker 2: you know obviously have like longevity outcomes and other things
31:08
Speaker 2: that are are quite useful for POSTMNALPASAL women.
31:11
Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Haley.
31:13
Speaker 1: If you've ever finished a workout plan and thought, okay,
31:16
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31:54
Speaker 1: Your strongest years are still ahead. Let's make you happen.
32:01
Speaker 3: So do you are you.
32:02
Speaker 1: Measuring and what are your what are your thoughts on
32:05
Speaker 1: visceral fat because this is also a big one that
32:08
Speaker 1: changes for women as we kind of go into this
32:11
Speaker 1: menopausal transition.
32:14
Speaker 3: Most women notice more abdominal fat. And when we look at.
32:19
Speaker 1: Visceral fat specifically, the question is always how do I
32:24
Speaker 1: target it?
32:25
Speaker 2: It's usually a multimodal approach, and so there are several
32:29
Speaker 2: studies that we've done in this space looking at visceral
32:31
Speaker 2: fat with resistance training, HIT training, aerobic training, usually with
32:36
Speaker 2: a higher protein intake, and a lot of these are
32:39
Speaker 2: in men and women, but all of a middle age,
32:41
Speaker 2: and many of them are perrier, postman apostle, and and
32:45
Speaker 2: so in our work, I don't know if you remember
32:47
Speaker 2: years ago, there was a program called Body for Life
32:50
Speaker 2: that came out, oh, kind of the the nineties. Yeah, yeah,
32:54
Speaker 2: So that's when I was starting research in this space.
32:57
Speaker 2: And so a guy named doctor Rcierro had these grants
33:00
Speaker 2: and I was a student in his lab and we
33:01
Speaker 2: were just starting to figure out what's help with that
33:04
Speaker 2: particular program, because it was really the first time we
33:06
Speaker 2: got a big message to lift weights and add protein.
33:10
Speaker 2: And so we decided to compare that particular program, which
33:14
Speaker 2: was resistance training three days a week and three days
33:18
Speaker 2: a week of high intensity interval training with one day off,
33:21
Speaker 2: so a six day program, and then we compared it
33:23
Speaker 2: to at the time, which was the old Food Guide
33:26
Speaker 2: pyramid back then, and so the Food Guide pyramid, and
33:29
Speaker 2: then it was the basic recommendations that go along with
33:31
Speaker 2: it were increased physical activity five days a week, so
33:35
Speaker 2: it was everybody was exercising, but the one group got
33:39
Speaker 2: resistance training and specifically a higher protein intake that we
33:43
Speaker 2: accomplished through protein shakes and protein bars. So it was
33:47
Speaker 2: primarily through those mechanisms to jack protein up in our hands.
33:51
Speaker 2: We looked at DEXA and we were calculated visceral fat
33:54
Speaker 2: and subcutaneous fat and changes over a twelve week study.
33:58
Speaker 2: And so these women were just awesome gots. They worked
34:02
Speaker 2: so hard and in that time, no matter what you did,
34:05
Speaker 2: starting an exercise program with some dietary instructions was helpful.
34:10
Speaker 2: So everybody lost weight, everybody lost body fat, everybody gained
34:14
Speaker 2: a little bit of muscle mass. But there are pally
34:17
Speaker 2: probably two giant things I learned from that. The resistance
34:22
Speaker 2: training and the protein in that group led to far
34:27
Speaker 2: greater more significant changes in reductions in belly fat and
34:31
Speaker 2: visceral fat than not including a higher protein diet and
34:35
Speaker 2: not including resistance training. So by far, to attack that
34:39
Speaker 2: visceral tissue, at least in the studies that we've run,
34:41
Speaker 2: it's got to be a combination of something with resistance
34:44
Speaker 2: training and a much higher protein intake than many women
34:49
Speaker 2: are many people in general are typically eating when they're
34:52
Speaker 2: starting out on these types of programs, So that was
34:54
Speaker 2: really really critical to us. The other part was that
34:58
Speaker 2: the women in that study were, for better or worse,
35:02
Speaker 2: they were so awesome, but they were so stuck on
35:05
Speaker 2: the body weight number as compared to the body composition number.
35:10
Speaker 2: And so I remember talking to at least three of
35:13
Speaker 2: those subjects that wanted to basically escape from the study
35:19
Speaker 2: because their body weight had not shifted enough for what
35:23
Speaker 2: they thought should be happening in a twelve week study.
35:26
Speaker 2: But then I show them the decks of data, and
35:28
Speaker 2: we see a giant drop in body fat and visceral
35:32
Speaker 2: fat and in an increase in muscle mass. And I
35:37
Speaker 2: was hoping that would push them over the edge to say, okay, no, no, no,
35:40
Speaker 2: this the composition is critical to this piece of it.
35:44
Speaker 2: But we have to get out of our own way sometimes, Hayley,
35:46
Speaker 2: there's such a stigma on body weight, and it has
35:49
Speaker 2: got to shift a body composition because we're doing ourselves
35:52
Speaker 2: no favors by sticking in this weight only and just
35:56
Speaker 2: losing muscle mass in some of these programs that exists
35:59
Speaker 2: when you don't account with resistance training and a higher
36:01
Speaker 2: approaching intake.
36:03
Speaker 1: Were these women and men in a calorie deficit or
36:07
Speaker 1: were you just having them resistance train over the tele question?
36:12
Speaker 2: It depends on the study. The one I'm referring to
36:14
Speaker 2: was not. It was they met with a dietician weekly
36:18
Speaker 2: to keep them at their target calories, which was based
36:22
Speaker 2: on keeping them even so, it was based on we
36:25
Speaker 2: had did resting metabolic rate in their activity factors to
36:27
Speaker 2: keep them in a certain small range of coloric intake.
36:31
Speaker 2: And then we just manipulated the protein side of it
36:33
Speaker 2: and the exercise side so that the calories were equated,
36:36
Speaker 2: so in that particular study was over and above. So
36:39
Speaker 2: protein itself is pretty pretty unique. We have done so
36:43
Speaker 2: much work with not just a pre sleep protein but
36:46
Speaker 2: just daily protein changes, and in every single every single
36:50
Speaker 2: paper that I put out on it, or looked at,
36:52
Speaker 2: or been associated with. If you're in a situation where
36:56
Speaker 2: you're an athlete, should have higher approaching. If you're in
36:58
Speaker 2: a situation where you're trying to recover more, probably should
37:01
Speaker 2: have higher protein. If you're in a situation where you
37:04
Speaker 2: want to be losing belly fat, you should probably have
37:07
Speaker 2: more approtein. If you're in a situation where you're trying
37:09
Speaker 2: to lose weight, in general, I would also increase protein.
37:12
Speaker 2: And so I get a lot of questions around, well,
37:14
Speaker 2: in this situation, that situation, would you increase it decrease?
37:17
Speaker 2: I'm like in every one of those situations, I would
37:20
Speaker 2: lock in and dial in protein at the level that
37:23
Speaker 2: we want and then manipulate the other macronutrients around that
37:26
Speaker 2: based on your exercise output.
37:29
Speaker 1: So we can then, just to confirm that I'm hearing
37:34
Speaker 1: you right, we can change visceral fat without being in
37:38
Speaker 1: a calorie deficit.
37:39
Speaker 3: Then that study showed yes, that.
37:41
Speaker 2: Study showed with the higher energy output more of energy flux. Yes,
37:45
Speaker 2: we actually had a reduction in the visceral fat in
37:47
Speaker 2: that particular study. Pretty great to see that. And I
37:51
Speaker 2: want to follow that, Hailey with another really cool study.
37:54
Speaker 2: I think your audience would really like. We were looking
37:56
Speaker 2: at a giant weight loss study. These are people who
37:59
Speaker 2: were looking to go get bariatric surgery. So they were
38:03
Speaker 2: going to a bariatric center to have surgery and instead
38:06
Speaker 2: they see our team sitting there and we're like, hey,
38:08
Speaker 2: instead of having that surgery, come with us for some diet,
38:11
Speaker 2: for some diet and exercise. So, as you can imagine,
38:13
Speaker 2: many people didn't want that, and so they went on
38:16
Speaker 2: their way. But we were able to recruit a lot
38:18
Speaker 2: in for our work which was run by a guy
38:20
Speaker 2: named Eddie Joe for his PhD dissertation that was run
38:23
Speaker 2: out of a colleague's lab at our University. And so
38:26
Speaker 2: when they came through and we actually recruited these people in,
38:30
Speaker 2: every one of them went on the medically supervised diet
38:32
Speaker 2: which was required at the bariatric center. Do you know
38:35
Speaker 2: the calorie intake for a medically supervised diet? How low
38:37
Speaker 2: that is? Under one thousand, yes, about eight about eight
38:41
Speaker 2: hundred calories is what it was when we did the study.
38:44
Speaker 2: It's terrible, and it's mostly liquid, and you're coming from
38:47
Speaker 2: a position where you're going for bariactric surgery, so the
38:49
Speaker 2: calories are far higher than that in your usual life,
38:52
Speaker 2: and then you quickly cut that down with mostly liquid
38:54
Speaker 2: foods to go through these and it's just miserable. Right.
38:58
Speaker 2: You do lose a lot of weight though, because you're
39:00
Speaker 2: just not eating much at all. And so what we
39:03
Speaker 2: did is we took all these people and we said,
39:05
Speaker 2: it's actually at a harm if we don't add protein
39:09
Speaker 2: to both of these groups, because on a calorie on
39:13
Speaker 2: a Graham's per kg basis, they were like at zero
39:16
Speaker 2: point four Graham's per kg, which is like half of
39:19
Speaker 2: the RDA, which we know is probably half of what
39:22
Speaker 2: we should be eating. So you can do the math.
39:24
Speaker 2: It's very very low based on total body size. And
39:28
Speaker 2: so when we added protein to both groups, it became
39:30
Speaker 2: a situation where it was like really cool to see
39:34
Speaker 2: where they you know, they all had a little bit
39:36
Speaker 2: extra protein. So it put their calories up to about
39:38
Speaker 2: twelve hundred or so, which is still not very high,
39:41
Speaker 2: but it was at least better than eight hundred. And
39:43
Speaker 2: then one of those groups got resistance training and the
39:46
Speaker 2: other one did standard of care, which was more like
39:48
Speaker 2: calisthenics and just walking and things like that. And after
39:51
Speaker 2: the period of that particular study, this is going back
39:55
Speaker 2: to the body weight versus composition. Both groups lost a
39:57
Speaker 2: ton of body weight, but the composition was so critical.
40:01
Speaker 2: So when they lost all that weight, the group that
40:03
Speaker 2: maintained or had the higher protein and got the resistance
40:07
Speaker 2: training of their weight lost let's say twenty four percent
40:13
Speaker 2: of that weight loss was fat, and they only lost
40:20
Speaker 2: a teeny little bit of muscle along that way. Now,
40:23
Speaker 2: on the other hand, the group that got a little
40:27
Speaker 2: bit of protein but didn't do resistance training, they lost
40:30
Speaker 2: a significant amount of muscle mass in that in that
40:35
Speaker 2: period of time, so the end of the day, and
40:38
Speaker 2: I think I said that backwards, so let me just
40:40
Speaker 2: rephrase that. The group that did resistance training only lost
40:43
Speaker 2: four percent of their muscle mass. The group that did
40:45
Speaker 2: not do resistance training lost twenty four percent of their
40:48
Speaker 2: muscle mass in that study. Twenty four so like a
40:51
Speaker 2: quarter of the weight loss was muscle. And so now
40:55
Speaker 2: if you stop doing that you're at a place where
40:57
Speaker 2: you're smaller, but you also have way less muscle, and
41:00
Speaker 2: if you start to eat normally again it's called weight recidivism,
41:05
Speaker 2: You're just going to put it right back on and
41:07
Speaker 2: go even even worse with it. And so in my
41:10
Speaker 2: mind that was like, gosh, out of the gate. We
41:12
Speaker 2: had data to show that in any of these weight
41:15
Speaker 2: loss giant weight loss studies, like you've got to be
41:17
Speaker 2: weight training, got to have higher protein in order to
41:20
Speaker 2: save your muscle mass.
41:22
Speaker 1: Okay, So then this same conversation would apply to someone
41:27
Speaker 1: who's going on like a GLP one and losing a
41:30
Speaker 1: lot of weight but not adding in resistance training and protein,
41:34
Speaker 1: but resistance training being the bigger rock for preserving muscle mass.
41:40
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Now, I haven't run those studies. I
41:43
Speaker 2: know a lot of those are coming out now and
41:45
Speaker 2: being done by colleagues of mine all over the place.
41:47
Speaker 2: But yeah, because it's just a different mechanism to lose
41:50
Speaker 2: the weight. But if the weight was coming off that fast,
41:53
Speaker 2: you better be doing something to maintain the integrity of
41:56
Speaker 2: your muscle mass or you'll be just set up for
41:58
Speaker 2: other problems.
42:00
Speaker 3: All right, let's take a quick break to hear from
42:02
Speaker 3: some of the body pod sponsors. We'll be right back.
42:14
Speaker 1: Okay, now this is going to be getting into the
42:16
Speaker 1: weeds here, but I'm going to ask it anyways. So,
42:20
Speaker 1: for the resistance training, did it matter what they were doing?
42:25
Speaker 3: And what I mean by that is a rep.
42:28
Speaker 1: Range getting close to failure using effort or just you know,
42:33
Speaker 1: kind of going in and being like, okay, do your
42:36
Speaker 1: own thing, but you have to lift some weights.
42:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question, Haley. That particular one was supervised,
42:42
Speaker 2: so they had a student trainer with them every single rep,
42:46
Speaker 2: every single exercise, and they were pushing for the sort
42:49
Speaker 2: of the normal recommendation, so it was full body exercise
42:54
Speaker 2: and they had that those three days a week, and
42:55
Speaker 2: then they had a rep range of round eight to
42:58
Speaker 2: twelve and they were supposed to be getting close to
43:00
Speaker 2: failure on the end of those, and so we had
43:03
Speaker 2: RPE scales rating or perceived exertion scales for every single
43:07
Speaker 2: time they went through that. So yeah, it does matter,
43:10
Speaker 2: like you need to be getting close to failure. And
43:12
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've had conversations about that, Like the weight
43:14
Speaker 2: probably is not as important, it's just are you getting
43:17
Speaker 2: close to failure? And they were pushing themselves, they worked hard,
43:21
Speaker 2: they had a really good experience. It's actually helpful to
43:24
Speaker 2: be held accountable to somebody. They say that all the time,
43:27
Speaker 2: Like even if you're very well trained, it's nice to
43:29
Speaker 2: have a coach where oh yeah you can someone can
43:33
Speaker 2: keep you accountable. And yeah, they're pushing themselves.
43:36
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's go.
43:38
Speaker 1: Let's move on to rep ranges since we're kind of
43:40
Speaker 1: touching on this for women and in like this midlife area,
43:49
Speaker 1: it is there only one way to train? Do we
43:52
Speaker 1: train all rep ranges? Do we get benefits from different
43:55
Speaker 1: rep ranges? I mean, I love to hear what my
43:59
Speaker 1: any experts say and any kind of turn that they
44:03
Speaker 1: might have or difference that they might have in this
44:06
Speaker 1: specific population.
44:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I I don't know, if you ask my friends
44:12
Speaker 2: and stuff. I'm a pretty middle of the road kind of person.
44:15
Speaker 2: So I like, once again, I don't know that I'll
44:19
Speaker 2: you know, be real controversial in anything, but the way
44:22
Speaker 2: that I see it, based on my view of the literature,
44:25
Speaker 2: past coaching experience, and been in this field for thirty years,
44:28
Speaker 2: Like there's a there's a benefit to just about every
44:32
Speaker 2: type of exercise and every type of rep range to
44:35
Speaker 2: tissue metabolism, performance, recovery, psychology, you know, what have you
44:42
Speaker 2: and so to me, if you like lower reps and
44:47
Speaker 2: heavier weight, then lift that way. If that's too heavy
44:51
Speaker 2: for you, or you're at an age where like you
44:53
Speaker 2: don't need to backsquad so much anymore, like, then just
44:56
Speaker 2: shift it a little bit and then you can use
44:58
Speaker 2: a different rep range. And so for me, I like
45:00
Speaker 2: to work through a full range of them. I have
45:02
Speaker 2: heavy days, I have light days. The people that we
45:05
Speaker 2: work with, the women that are highly active and are
45:08
Speaker 2: associated with our facility at the Institute of Sports Sciences
45:10
Speaker 2: in Medicine, do that too. So there'll be a day
45:14
Speaker 2: of you know, you know, even with the aerobic world,
45:17
Speaker 2: like a zone two day, and then they'll be like
45:18
Speaker 2: a higher intensity day and they'll be heavy days and
45:21
Speaker 2: all that and some of that s based on how
45:23
Speaker 2: you feel that day, Hailey, because there's something to auto
45:26
Speaker 2: regulation where you're in the gym or you're in your
45:29
Speaker 2: garage wherever you're training, and some days you're just like,
45:31
Speaker 2: I'm dialed in. I can totally go heavy today, that's
45:35
Speaker 2: what I want to be doing. But that's taxing on
45:36
Speaker 2: your nervous system, So I don't think you should do
45:38
Speaker 2: that every single day, and so we work through a
45:41
Speaker 2: wide range of weights and also repetitions is what I
45:46
Speaker 2: would personally recommend, and there's some data to back up
45:49
Speaker 2: variety in general. So again Paul our heroes run many
45:53
Speaker 2: of these studies. I was associated with two or three
45:55
Speaker 2: of them. They're called Prize and it's so the prize
45:59
Speaker 2: is an acronym for protein is the P, resistance training is,
46:02
Speaker 2: the I is intermittent like sprints, S is stretching or yoga,
46:08
Speaker 2: and then E was endurance. And so he compared in
46:11
Speaker 2: many different studies this Prize program to traditional exercises, and
46:16
Speaker 2: simply the variety that's provided with you know, something different
46:20
Speaker 2: just about every single day was quite useful, and I
46:23
Speaker 2: think it would be useful for things in general like
46:25
Speaker 2: compliance and wanting to go do something. It's not the
46:28
Speaker 2: same thing every day. But he also found greater benefits
46:32
Speaker 2: with that sort of approach for like you said, visceral fat,
46:35
Speaker 2: abdominal fat, muscle mass, etc. And so outside of just
46:40
Speaker 2: rep ranges even between types of exercise, I think that
46:43
Speaker 2: variety is really nice and it keeps you ready, right
46:46
Speaker 2: Like if my kids want to play on the playground.
46:50
Speaker 2: I want to be able to do that with them.
46:51
Speaker 2: If they want to do some activity, I hope I
46:53
Speaker 2: can still throw a ball or kick a soccer ball.
46:55
Speaker 2: So it keeps you sort of it at least keeps
46:58
Speaker 2: me in the mindset of like I can still hang
47:00
Speaker 2: with most things. So let's go ahead and try these
47:03
Speaker 2: different activities.
47:04
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Okay.
47:07
Speaker 1: So another study that I would like your input on,
47:13
Speaker 1: which was super fascinating to me because I've never really
47:18
Speaker 1: cared that much about collagen and when people ask me,
47:21
Speaker 1: I'm like, what take.
47:22
Speaker 2: It or don't?
47:24
Speaker 3: It's one other thing that I have to take.
47:26
Speaker 1: And now, after I've listened to some podcasts that you're on,
47:30
Speaker 1: I'm starting the collagen regularly from here on out.
47:34
Speaker 3: So let's talk about that.
47:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's another one. I felt the same way
47:39
Speaker 2: before we actually did the research on. I was like, oh, no, like,
47:43
Speaker 2: it's not a complete protein. I don't think this is
47:45
Speaker 2: This probably isn't the way that I would be wanting
47:47
Speaker 2: to get my protein in. And so when the opportunity
47:51
Speaker 2: came up to study collagen, we made sure to do
47:54
Speaker 2: it right. We when we chose a population that was
47:58
Speaker 2: great and I'm you know, as I'm getting old, I'm like, hey, yeah,
48:00
Speaker 2: middle age is great, let's study let's study that. I
48:03
Speaker 2: want to see what happens. And so we took lifelong
48:06
Speaker 2: active people. Lifelong active. It could be anything. It could
48:09
Speaker 2: have been golf walking, it could have been even like
48:11
Speaker 2: high level elite athletes, but you had to be active
48:13
Speaker 2: your whole life. And then we ended up studying collagen
48:17
Speaker 2: intake at three different levels, like zero, so you took
48:20
Speaker 2: up placeibo ten grams per day or twenty grams per day,
48:24
Speaker 2: and then we measured and we had them take the
48:27
Speaker 2: supplement for nine months, which is the kicker. That's a
48:31
Speaker 2: very hard thing to pull off in the research world,
48:33
Speaker 2: is something that long. And we did that for a
48:36
Speaker 2: couple of reasons. One is like, there's a lot of
48:39
Speaker 2: negativity around collagen. We want to make sure we didn't
48:41
Speaker 2: just go too short, and that we didn't want to
48:44
Speaker 2: finish and say, you know, if we had done a
48:46
Speaker 2: little bit longer, maybe we would have seen something, So
48:48
Speaker 2: we wanted to take it all the way out. We
48:50
Speaker 2: also wanted to look at see if there's any changes
48:51
Speaker 2: in bone mineral density, and that won't change until at
48:55
Speaker 2: least a minimum of nine months, so we were still
48:57
Speaker 2: just on the customer. If we were going to see
48:59
Speaker 2: something we might i'd have seen it about that point.
49:02
Speaker 2: And so our primary outcomes were not muscle growth, which
49:07
Speaker 2: I wouldn't recommend collegen for. Our primary outcomes was joint pain.
49:12
Speaker 2: And a lot of middle aged active people one day
49:17
Speaker 2: or another have joint pain, and so you couldn't have
49:19
Speaker 2: diagnosed to osteoarthritis, but you had to have some type
49:23
Speaker 2: of reoccurring but not persistent joint pain, and so that's
49:28
Speaker 2: what we did. We lined it up. Shiloakiyevkovsky ran that
49:32
Speaker 2: study for her PhD dissertation, and she's phenomenal, and we
49:36
Speaker 2: did so much great work in that space. And what
49:38
Speaker 2: we ended up finding after nine months of that was
49:41
Speaker 2: that taking the collagen was most beneficial if you were
49:47
Speaker 2: the most active. If you were the most active people
49:50
Speaker 2: in the study, and so there were some benefits in
49:54
Speaker 2: some things we measured across the board, but if you
49:56
Speaker 2: exercised more than about one hundred and I think it
49:59
Speaker 2: was about a hundre sixty hundred and eighty minutes a week,
50:02
Speaker 2: that's where those people ended up seeing the most benefit
50:06
Speaker 2: from taking collagen. If you didn't if you were active,
50:09
Speaker 2: but it was less than that one hundred and fifty
50:11
Speaker 2: minutes a week or so. That's where not so much
50:14
Speaker 2: was seen in those individuals. And the thought is that
50:18
Speaker 2: the most active people have the most opportunity to get
50:22
Speaker 2: collagen because it's very hard to get collagen where it
50:24
Speaker 2: needs to go. You have to have blood flow to
50:27
Speaker 2: the joints, and that only is really going to happen.
50:29
Speaker 2: Maybe when you're exercising, that those people are just so
50:32
Speaker 2: active that you had an opportunity to get the collagen
50:37
Speaker 2: perhaps to these areas we were measuring for joint pain.
50:40
Speaker 2: Now some nuances here, right, let's always sort of cap
50:43
Speaker 2: this off in our hands. Ten grams seem to work
50:47
Speaker 2: a little bit better in most cases than twenty grams,
50:50
Speaker 2: and we don't know why. So it's interesting. Yeah, so
50:55
Speaker 2: ten grams is what I take. Ten grams is what
50:57
Speaker 2: I typically recommend for people. Now, it wasn't ineffective, it
51:01
Speaker 2: just had we had more of the outcomes changed in
51:05
Speaker 2: the positive direction from ten grams, And I don't know why.
51:09
Speaker 2: We have some theories on it. We're trying to test
51:10
Speaker 2: now with some ongoing work, but we still don't know why,
51:15
Speaker 2: And I think with the collagen conversation, it's like, how
51:19
Speaker 2: in the world would it be better than like a
51:22
Speaker 2: complete protein, like a wave protein, And that's where this
51:26
Speaker 2: a lot of negativity comes still, if you're talking about
51:29
Speaker 2: muscle growth, collagen should not be what you're choosing to take.
51:33
Speaker 2: You should be taking away or you know, caseine or
51:36
Speaker 2: you know, a soy supplemented product or something. The collagen
51:40
Speaker 2: specifically in my mind because it's the only data I've
51:42
Speaker 2: seen that I believe is with this joint pain angle,
51:46
Speaker 2: and I don't know. I'm not sure exactly why it
51:50
Speaker 2: would help with these specific things other than the makeup
51:52
Speaker 2: of it, with the glycine, the proleine hydroxyproleine combination of
51:57
Speaker 2: these amino acids that are in high concentration in collagen
52:01
Speaker 2: also make up the tends and the joint. So it's
52:04
Speaker 2: not that they're absent from away, they just are very
52:06
Speaker 2: much present in the collagen. And I think a lot
52:09
Speaker 2: of work needs to be done to say why would
52:12
Speaker 2: it target a tissue We don't know, But at the
52:16
Speaker 2: end of the day, the mechanisms are really really critical,
52:19
Speaker 2: but the outcomes to me are even more critical. Do
52:22
Speaker 2: you feel better, then take it and we could figure
52:26
Speaker 2: out the in between and we work on it. And
52:29
Speaker 2: I'm not putting down the mechanistic piece. We need to
52:32
Speaker 2: know that. But at the moment, it looks like pain
52:34
Speaker 2: is better if you're very active. Why not give it
52:37
Speaker 2: a try. It's not going to hurt anything, and it
52:39
Speaker 2: might it might help you.
52:41
Speaker 1: No, this is great because I don't know any female
52:44
Speaker 1: or very few that does not have some kind of
52:47
Speaker 1: joint pain, especially post menopause when we no longer have estrogen,
52:52
Speaker 1: that comes up a lot. And so this is great news.
52:55
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm starting I started the protein last night's
53:00
Speaker 1: starting the college and today I have it. I have
53:03
Speaker 1: loads in my house. I just if it's not sitting
53:06
Speaker 1: right out. I'm really good with creatine and just getting protein.
53:11
Speaker 1: But then it's just one extra thing to like throw
53:13
Speaker 1: in there.
53:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like the timing for
53:16
Speaker 2: it's also probably important for college, and like that would
53:19
Speaker 2: be like a pre workout type time that you would
53:23
Speaker 2: want to take it before exercise if you can.
53:25
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, good, so they can take it if they're
53:28
Speaker 1: having some protein before add it in there.
53:31
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. And I'm starting to see it. Now there's
53:34
Speaker 2: companies that are coming out with with way and collagen
53:37
Speaker 2: mixed together. So it's one thing. Just watch your dosing.
53:40
Speaker 2: Make sure you get in the right dosing if you're
53:42
Speaker 2: looking at those those products.
53:44
Speaker 1: Okay, great, I'm so mad out of time right now.
53:47
Speaker 1: I feel like we got to do things on my
53:51
Speaker 1: list done. But while we wrap this up because I'm
53:54
Speaker 1: sensitive of your time and I just appreciate you so much, Mike.
53:57
Speaker 1: It's so great to get to know you and have
53:59
Speaker 1: a conversation with you.
54:01
Speaker 3: If people are looking for you, you said you, I know
54:03
Speaker 3: you have to. You're the author of two books too.
54:07
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, real real fun read. So one's a
54:10
Speaker 2: textbook which is an exercise physiology textbook, which is like
54:15
Speaker 2: a great like background resource if you're a trainer or
54:19
Speaker 2: someone an X fizz and just need like the nuts
54:21
Speaker 2: and bolts. The other one's more of like a it's
54:23
Speaker 2: a it's a book and a course what was made
54:25
Speaker 2: through a company called The Great Courses that was bought
54:28
Speaker 2: by Wonderum. So it's like this continuing education courses and
54:31
Speaker 2: it's not overly like entertaining. You're basically in a classroom
54:36
Speaker 2: with me and they're twenty four to thirty minute lectures,
54:38
Speaker 2: so you can listen to them like on a commute,
54:41
Speaker 2: and it's just the nuts and bolts. But it's a
54:43
Speaker 2: really good base to have, like if you want a
54:46
Speaker 2: base before you dig into like one hundred podcasts that
54:48
Speaker 2: get confusing, it's a good base to have.
54:51
Speaker 1: Well, this is amazing, and this is for anyone, not
54:54
Speaker 1: just trainers or students.
54:57
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the Great Courses are really cool. They're or
55:00
Speaker 2: like any topic you could imagine. But the one that
55:02
Speaker 2: I did was on changing body composition through diet and exercise,
55:05
Speaker 2: and it's for everybody. It's made at any level. It's
55:09
Speaker 2: an intro level.
55:11
Speaker 1: Okay, great, So they can find that online or your Instagram.
55:15
Speaker 1: What's your Instagram handle?
55:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Instagram's just at Mike Wormsby and I try
55:21
Speaker 2: to put up everything from our lab. There a lot
55:23
Speaker 2: of our studies, these pre sleep feeding things or things
55:25
Speaker 2: that are in and related to these topics we've talked
55:27
Speaker 2: about today. So it's a great resource there. And then yeah,
55:31
Speaker 2: the Great Courses thing is available. Just if you just
55:33
Speaker 2: google that title in my name, you'll you can find it.
55:36
Speaker 2: But the Great Courses Amazon has it a couple easy spots.
55:40
Speaker 2: But yeah, i'd encourage a follow to see what we're
55:42
Speaker 2: up to and love communicating with If anybody's questions.
55:46
Speaker 3: Oh that's great.
55:47
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much again Mike for your time,
55:49
Speaker 1: and I just appreciate what you're doing in the field
55:51
Speaker 1: and your willingness to talk to my audience, who I
55:54
Speaker 1: know are going to absolutely love this podcast.
55:58
Speaker 2: Great, thanks Haley anytime, Thanks for listening.
56:02
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please consider giving us a
56:05
Speaker 1: five star review and sharing the body Pod with your friends.
56:09
Speaker 3: Until next time,