Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #021 Jason Flom with Floyd Bledsoe and Cornelius Dupree (Live from the Innocence Network Conference 2017)

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#021 Jason Flom with Floyd Bledsoe and Cornelius Dupree (Live from the Innocence Network Conference 2017) · Wrongful Conviction

0:05
Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up. The
0:10
Speaker 1: choice to be in that lineup was the last choice
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Speaker 1: that made as a free man. A year later, I
0:15
Speaker 1: ended up writing the system.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone
0:20
Speaker 2: in the world is going to think as a monster
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Speaker 2: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,
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Speaker 2: and I'm just going to have to come to peace
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Speaker 2: with that.
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Speaker 3: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the
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Speaker 3: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.
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Speaker 4: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they
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Speaker 4: might have to play in my hanging.
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Speaker 1: They had been told that two.
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Speaker 4: Prison officers would have to participate in my execution.
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Speaker 1: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,
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Speaker 1: all help broke loose.
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Speaker 5: But this weekend we're recording from sunny San Diego at
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Speaker 5: the Innocence Network Conference, And because we have so many
1:06
Speaker 5: xaneries together, we'll be doing two shorter interviews with two
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Speaker 5: incredible exoneries who will talk about what this conference means
1:12
Speaker 5: to them, Floyd Ledsoe and Cornelius Dupree. But let's start
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Speaker 5: with Maddie Delone, the executive director of the Innocence Project,
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Speaker 5: who will explain how this conference came into existence and
1:23
Speaker 5: what it's all about. Maddie Delone. Maddie, welcome, Thanks Jason.
1:27
Speaker 2: Great to be here.
1:28
Speaker 5: Maddie is a force of nature. She has spent her
1:31
Speaker 5: entire life in criminal justice reform, fair to say, and
1:35
Speaker 5: everything from working inside of prisons to really building and
1:39
Speaker 5: running what is the organization at the forefront of the
1:43
Speaker 5: innocence movement, at the center, whatever you want to call it.
1:46
Speaker 5: And we're here today at the Innocence Network conference in
1:49
Speaker 5: San Diego, which is an out of this world's extraordinary event.
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Speaker 5: And Maddie, you and I go back to the beginning
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Speaker 5: of this together and your memories better than mine. So
2:01
Speaker 5: I wanted to talk to you about how this all
2:04
Speaker 5: started and also what it means to be here, not
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Speaker 5: only for you and the staff, but for the x Hoonneries.
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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot, Jason. So the Innocence Project started
2:14
Speaker 2: about twenty five years ago as a small clinic at
2:17
Speaker 2: Cardozo Law School with Barry and Peter running the show,
2:21
Speaker 2: working with students, other law professors, and really understanding the
2:25
Speaker 2: power of the science to get people out of prison.
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Speaker 2: The DNA technology was pretty new in the criminal justice system.
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Speaker 2: Pretty quickly they realized how many innocent people there were
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Speaker 2: and how much work it was going to take to
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Speaker 2: get people out of prison across the country, and they
2:40
Speaker 2: began to find law professors really at other universities across
2:45
Speaker 2: the country to do this work. So the sort of
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Speaker 2: next projects in the network were formed, the Innocence Project
2:52
Speaker 2: in ninety two, There was a project in ninety four.
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Speaker 2: I just heard that the Innocence Project Northwest rated their
3:00
Speaker 2: twentieth anniversary this year. So those are among the first projects,
3:04
Speaker 2: and pretty quickly people realized they needed to have a
3:07
Speaker 2: way to come together and to begin to share what
3:09
Speaker 2: they were learning and figure it out. You have to
3:12
Speaker 2: remember that while we have fifty post conviction DNA laws
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Speaker 2: right now, so for people for whom DNA can prove
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Speaker 2: in a sense, you now have a way to get
3:20
Speaker 2: back into court. That wasn't true when this all started.
3:23
Speaker 2: So they had to figure out how do you get
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Speaker 2: back into court when there's no mechanism, and they use
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Speaker 2: the press, and they use persuasion, and more and more
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Speaker 2: they could use as they began exonerating people, the power
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Speaker 2: of those stories and the experiences of the xonaies. I
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Speaker 2: think the first network conference was in two thousand, so
3:43
Speaker 2: it's seventeen years later, and this is the sixteenth conference.
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Speaker 2: At that first conference, there were maybe seventy five or
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Speaker 2: eighty people. I wasn't there, but Barri and Peter were there,
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Speaker 2: and a number of the people who are still in
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Speaker 2: this work today. And with each conference the conference grew,
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Speaker 2: new projects started, more people were exonerated, the exoneries began
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Speaker 2: to come to the conferences in bigger and bigger numbers.
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Speaker 2: We began to work. You began to work to help
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Speaker 2: pay for people to get there, to put them up
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Speaker 2: in hotels, people who had no resources.
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Speaker 5: Right, these are people from all over the country and
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Speaker 5: even other parts of the world as well.
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Speaker 2: That's right. We had an amazing conference at the Ohio
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Speaker 2: Innocence Project hosted in two thousand and eleven I think,
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Speaker 2: where we invited Mark Gotsei, who was the Ohio Innocence
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Speaker 2: Project director, really invited people from around the world who
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Speaker 2: were doing this work to come, and they brought x
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Speaker 2: hooneries from Japan and Italy and other places. So it
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Speaker 2: has grown from probably in two thousand, maybe eight or nine,
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Speaker 2: exonerated people and today in San Diego they're almost two hundred.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's amazing. I mean last night we posted a
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Speaker 5: graphic on the screen with the total number of years served,
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Speaker 5: including two hundred and twenty two years served on death row.
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Speaker 5: Extraordinary being here and being a part of it, and
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Speaker 5: just sort of experiencing the energy, the positive energy that's
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Speaker 5: developed or that's generated, I should say, from the ex
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Speaker 5: houneries being around each other, because not unlike what I
5:14
Speaker 5: understand to be the case with POW's prisons of war,
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Speaker 5: no one can understand what they've been through except for
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Speaker 5: each other, as much as we try and as much
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Speaker 5: as we want to help, and so it's really been
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Speaker 5: an extraordinary journey to watch them heal. And it's obviously
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Speaker 5: a very long, it's a never ending journey, but progress
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Speaker 5: is being made in this building as we speak, and
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Speaker 5: that's the remarkable thing to be a part of.
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Speaker 2: Can I just tell you a story I just heard
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Speaker 2: from one of the directors of one of the projects
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Speaker 2: this morning. They have a client who got out of
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Speaker 2: prison after thirty two years and got out maybe four
5:45
Speaker 2: or five months ago. Came to the conference last night.
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Speaker 2: As you were saying, there was an introduction of all
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Speaker 2: of the ex Honeries, including forty seven X Honeries who
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Speaker 2: had never been here before. And at the end of
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Speaker 2: that presentation and the whole crowd is standing and cheering
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Speaker 2: and crying and they're hugging each other on stage. Her
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Speaker 2: client walked down the stairs from the stage and said
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Speaker 2: to her this is the first time I felt free.
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Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's heavy, and it's magical. I mean,
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Speaker 5: there's no other word to explain it. And yeah, it's
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Speaker 5: so great because every time one of them gets up
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Speaker 5: and the crowd erupts, nobody tells anybody to erupt, and
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Speaker 5: nobody tells anybody to stand, But it's a standing ovation
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Speaker 5: every time, and they're really among their peers, and they're
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Speaker 5: among people who love them and care about them as
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Speaker 5: we do. So it's a it's just an awesome thing.
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Speaker 5: What is that for the Innocence Project? I mean, how
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Speaker 5: have you been able to focus the staff who traditionally
6:39
Speaker 5: were just focused on the legal stuff. How are you
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Speaker 5: able to build this into the sort of the deal
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Speaker 5: lack of a better word, the DNA of the Innocence Project.
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Speaker 2: One thing we had, you know, as we got more
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Speaker 2: and more people out about ten years ago. We actually
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Speaker 2: made the decision with our board that you're on to
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Speaker 2: hire a social worker, and we now have two social
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Speaker 2: workers who work in the office and each of them
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Speaker 2: works on cases as people are about to come home,
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Speaker 2: and then is a person for them to go to
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Speaker 2: and talk to over the course of you know, intensively,
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Speaker 2: probably the first year, but for some people they're still
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Speaker 2: talking often ten years later. We also have developed a
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Speaker 2: fund for Innocence Project exonarees who don't have resources or
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Speaker 2: have family without resources when they come out, so that
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Speaker 2: we can help pay for rent or medical care that's
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Speaker 2: not covered under state insurance schemes, or whatever the case
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Speaker 2: may be. And I think we're trying to get I know,
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Speaker 2: we're trying to get better and better at that every year,
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Speaker 2: and we're learning more and more from the exoneries themselves
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Speaker 2: about what it takes. And one of the things I
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Speaker 2: think it takes, and you talked about it at the beginning,
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Speaker 2: is bringing them together with each other more often. They
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Speaker 2: really are the people who are best able to help
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Speaker 2: each other heal. And we're realizing the importance of their
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Speaker 2: families and the importance of helping find support for their
7:54
Speaker 2: family members because like the exonarees. The family members worked
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Speaker 2: for twelve years, for ten years, twenty years, thirty years,
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Speaker 2: when they stuck with them. They work to help get
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Speaker 2: somebody out. And if you've been on that course of
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Speaker 2: getting yourself out or helping someone else get out for
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Speaker 2: twenty years and then they're out, you have to find
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Speaker 2: the next course of purpose. And I think there's hope
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Speaker 2: for many people that it will just be glorious and
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Speaker 2: perfect and they'll be free. It's a thing they worked
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Speaker 2: at for so long. But life on the outside is hard, and.
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Speaker 5: The first question people want to know is do they
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Speaker 5: get compensation when they get out? And they're flabbergasset to
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Speaker 5: find out that not only are there I think twenty
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Speaker 5: states that don't have compensation statutes at all, but also
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Speaker 5: even if you are entitled the conversation, it can take
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Speaker 5: many years to get it. So you're just in the
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Speaker 5: twilight zone. Now you're out and trying to figure out
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Speaker 5: how to live with nothing, and it's an incredible series
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Speaker 5: of challenges. Let's just talk for a moment, Maddie about
8:51
Speaker 5: the strategic litigation aspect of our work.
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Speaker 2: So we have two programs, and the strategic litigation program
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Speaker 2: is a pretty new program for the last five years,
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Speaker 2: although I like to think that the Innocence Project has
9:02
Speaker 2: been doing it in maybe a less focused and concentrated
9:05
Speaker 2: way forever. But the Strategic Litigation Unit, which was founded
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Speaker 2: five years ago by your generosity and that of your family,
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Speaker 2: run by Christopher Fabricant, who's a brilliant lawyer, really works
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Speaker 2: on getting the courts to understand their role as a
9:23
Speaker 2: gatekeeper of bad evidence going into cases. And so the
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Speaker 2: Strategic Litigation Unit takes cases around the country where there
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Speaker 2: is bad forensic science is trying to be introduced, or
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Speaker 2: eyewitness identification procedures that were done in a way that's
9:39
Speaker 2: not reliable and not likely to give you the best ID.
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Speaker 2: In fact, seventy five percent of the DNA cases have
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Speaker 2: had an eyewitness identification, which is erroneous. So we know
9:50
Speaker 2: how important it is to get the ID procedures right,
9:53
Speaker 2: and our team finds cases to teach courts about how
9:56
Speaker 2: to vet evidence and to keep bad evidence out. If
10:00
Speaker 2: we can keep bad evidence out of these cases in
10:02
Speaker 2: the first place, then you'll never have people being wrongly
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Speaker 2: convicted until and lessen until the police and prosecutors and
10:09
Speaker 2: the courts understand that at the front end and begin
10:12
Speaker 2: to implement procedures and keep the evidence out of court.
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Speaker 2: We're going to continue to replicate the problems we have
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Speaker 2: with wrongful conviction and to put more people in. And
10:21
Speaker 2: you said it yourself, it takes forever to get them out.
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Speaker 2: If somebody goes in and they exhaust their state appeals
10:28
Speaker 2: eight years later, and then they write to us and
10:30
Speaker 2: then we take their case and then we litigate the
10:33
Speaker 2: case for ten or twelve or fifteen years. Sometimes heard
10:36
Speaker 2: someone today who has a case that they picked up
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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine. It's twenty seventeen. The person was
10:42
Speaker 2: just freed. That's an entire life. So we have to
10:45
Speaker 2: stop it at the front end, and that's what the
10:47
Speaker 2: Strategic Litigation Unit tries to do. The Joseph Flohm Special
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Speaker 2: Council has done amazing work in the courts to try
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Speaker 2: to protect people from having bad evidence admitted in the
10:58
Speaker 2: first place in the courts. And that's what it's going
10:59
Speaker 2: to take to really change the system.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I know that my dad, if he were here,
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Speaker 5: would be thrilled to see the quality of the work
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Speaker 5: that's being done in his name. He was a supporter
11:09
Speaker 5: of the instant project, and Scadden of course has donated
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Speaker 5: tens of thousands of.
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Speaker 2: Millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of legal
11:17
Speaker 2: brilliant legal talent and support to the.
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Speaker 5: Project, and they still do to this day. Recently, Keith
11:21
Speaker 5: Allen Harward was freed after thirty three years in prison
11:25
Speaker 5: in Virginia with the help of the pro Bone of
11:28
Speaker 5: Department at Scatten in DC, run by Don Salzman. So yeah,
11:31
Speaker 5: it just continues. Unfortunately, our work will never end. We'd
11:33
Speaker 5: love to put ourselves out of business, but unfortunately that's
11:36
Speaker 5: not going to happen in our lifetimes. Maddie Delone, it's
11:39
Speaker 5: a pleasure to have you on the podcast today and
11:42
Speaker 5: I really appreciate you stopping by and dropping some knowledge.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason, great to be here. Keep up the
11:48
Speaker 2: great work.
11:49
Speaker 5: So that was a great introduction to the conference from
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Speaker 5: my friend and partner in Fighting Injustice, Maddie the loan.
12:05
Speaker 5: Let's continue with the one and only Floyd Bledsoell.
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Speaker 1: After spending sixteen years behind bars for a murder his
12:11
Speaker 1: brother committed.
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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety nine, fourteen year old Camille Arfman went
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Speaker 4: missing after getting off the bus from school Bledsoe's older brother,
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Speaker 4: Tom confessed several times to the murder and led police
12:23
Speaker 4: to her body, but several days later, Tom Bledsoe changed
12:26
Speaker 4: his story, pinning the murder on Floyd. New DNA evidence
12:30
Speaker 4: in October of twenty fifteen implicated Tom Bledsoe.
12:34
Speaker 6: Just over a month ago, Floyd Bledsoe's murder conviction was overturned.
12:38
Speaker 5: Law enforcement a district coord agreeing he was an innocent man.
12:42
Speaker 5: Floyd Bledsell, Welcome to the show. Thank you. Floyd is
12:45
Speaker 5: an axonnery from Kansas who served.
12:48
Speaker 7: Sixteen years sixteen years.
12:50
Speaker 5: And you out there listening had just as much to
12:53
Speaker 5: do with it as he did, that's fair to say.
12:55
Speaker 5: And his attorney, Alice Craig is here. Alice, welcome, thank you,
12:58
Speaker 5: thanks for being here. So we're here at the Innocent
13:01
Speaker 5: Network conference in San Diego. Have you been to San
13:05
Speaker 5: Diego before?
13:05
Speaker 7: No, this is a very beautiful city.
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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty. It's different than Kansas, very different than
13:10
Speaker 5: Kansas and the Ocean. I I just can't even So
13:16
Speaker 5: your case in a nutshell revolved around this rape and murder,
13:21
Speaker 5: and it's so bizarre because this one came with instructions
13:26
Speaker 5: right tragically, your brother was the culprit. And what makes
13:31
Speaker 5: this so insane is that he went he confessed to
13:34
Speaker 5: a religious figure, was a pastor or something, and then
13:37
Speaker 5: he confessed to the police. Yes, and he provided the
13:41
Speaker 5: murder weapon, told him where to find.
13:43
Speaker 7: The body, took him to the body, took him to
13:45
Speaker 7: the body.
13:45
Speaker 5: Yeah. Right, So you're probably having the same reaction I was,
13:49
Speaker 5: which was okay, so thanks for telling us, and here's
13:53
Speaker 5: your one way ticket to prison, right, I mean, but
13:56
Speaker 5: that's not what happened.
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Speaker 7: No, can you walk us.
13:59
Speaker 5: Through how you ended up being charged for a crime
14:01
Speaker 5: that your brother had not only clearly committed, but had
14:04
Speaker 5: confessed to in every conceivable way.
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Speaker 8: Right, and he had confessed to multiple times, multiple people
14:11
Speaker 8: had heard him. Basically what happened On November seventh, at
14:15
Speaker 8: about ten o'clock that evening, he went to the police station,
14:18
Speaker 8: made a phone call to the pastor of the church. Said, Hey,
14:22
Speaker 8: this is Tom.
14:23
Speaker 7: I'm sorry. I lied to you.
14:24
Speaker 8: I know where she is. I'm going to turn myself in.
14:27
Speaker 8: He says, I wish I could have turned back to
14:29
Speaker 8: hands of time, but I can't. And then he said,
14:33
Speaker 8: please help my parents through this, and then he hung up.
14:36
Speaker 8: Called our father, and then called Jim back again and
14:41
Speaker 8: left basically the same message, saying that he wished he
14:44
Speaker 8: hadn't done it, wish he could have turned back to
14:46
Speaker 8: hands of time, but he made his choice. He's going
14:49
Speaker 8: to pay for it for the rest of his life,
14:51
Speaker 8: and that mom and dad were mad at him, and
14:53
Speaker 8: he was turning himself in. He asked the church to
14:56
Speaker 8: forgive him, God to forgive him, and they took him
14:59
Speaker 8: to get int Arney. Then the attorney went to the
15:02
Speaker 8: police department. His attorney told him that Tom knows where
15:06
Speaker 8: the girl is, and then the police went with him
15:09
Speaker 8: to where the body was.
15:10
Speaker 7: He showed him.
15:12
Speaker 8: The detectives testified at trial that the area was so
15:16
Speaker 8: well concealed and only the true perpetrator would have known.
15:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't a lucky guest. No, No.
15:22
Speaker 7: And it was the middle of the night, dark.
15:24
Speaker 5: And he had just bought the gun, and he had
15:26
Speaker 5: just bought the the gun.
15:27
Speaker 7: Two weeks prior. So much stuff.
15:29
Speaker 5: This was literally the easiest case in the history of
15:32
Speaker 5: criminal justice for the authorities. Alice, would you disagree with that?
15:36
Speaker 1: No?
15:36
Speaker 6: I wouldn't.
15:36
Speaker 5: I mean this was it like, I mean, it's gift
15:39
Speaker 5: wrapped right.
15:40
Speaker 8: They charged him with murder that Monday. Three or four
15:43
Speaker 8: days later, he decides he doesn't like jail and says
15:46
Speaker 8: he didn't do it, that his brother did it, which
15:49
Speaker 8: was me. So the police they were like, well, how
15:52
Speaker 8: did you know all this stuff? He said, well, he
15:54
Speaker 8: confessed to me on the side of the road. Detective
15:57
Speaker 8: Carino says, okay, that's plausible and says when Tom says
16:02
Speaker 8: two thirty in the afternoon, Randy says, are you sure?
16:06
Speaker 8: And this is all said in my trial. Randy says
16:09
Speaker 8: are you sure? And Tom says, yep, I'm positive.
16:12
Speaker 7: Had to be two thirty.
16:14
Speaker 8: Randy told admitted a trial that he told Tom that
16:17
Speaker 8: he was lying and Tom said, no, I'm not. He goes, yeah,
16:20
Speaker 8: you are. You want to know how I know you're lying?
16:22
Speaker 8: He was like, how he said Floyd was sitting in
16:24
Speaker 8: my patrol car two thirty in the afternoon, and Tom said, well,
16:28
Speaker 8: must have been earlier. Randy admitted to giving Tom facts
16:31
Speaker 8: to make his story more believable.
16:34
Speaker 7: At my trial.
16:35
Speaker 5: The whole thing is just like, actually, I mean, and
16:39
Speaker 5: there's so much I mean, I guess basically.
16:43
Speaker 8: It comes down to people getting tunnel vision, people making mistakes,
16:49
Speaker 8: poor detective work, stuff that should have been investigated they
16:53
Speaker 8: didn't look at. And then you throw Tom's defense attorney,
16:57
Speaker 8: who you know, his job is to get his client
17:00
Speaker 8: off and he means necessary within the law, supposedly. And
17:05
Speaker 8: so I don't think we know the true reason why
17:09
Speaker 8: everything went the way did. But ultimately, with his attorneys
17:14
Speaker 8: and help and poor investigation, things flipped. They arrested me,
17:19
Speaker 8: they claim on November fifteenth, but when they interviewed me
17:25
Speaker 8: on November eleventh, I believe it was twelveth somewhere running there.
17:29
Speaker 8: They had me in the holding cell, wouldn't let me leave.
17:33
Speaker 8: They told my wife or my ex wife, but my
17:35
Speaker 8: wife then that they didn't know where I was. They
17:38
Speaker 8: said he got in a car and left. When she said, well,
17:41
Speaker 8: his car's out front, they told her he left. We
17:44
Speaker 8: don't know where he went. I was in their holding cell.
17:48
Speaker 5: The whole thing is totally set.
17:50
Speaker 8: You know, for four days, nobody knew where I was
17:52
Speaker 8: except them, And then finally, after the press got a
17:55
Speaker 8: hold of it, then they.
17:57
Speaker 7: Charged me with for sugar murder.
17:59
Speaker 8: And then I went to trial. I had poor representation
18:04
Speaker 8: and got found guilty. The Tippeek at Capitol Journal interviewed
18:08
Speaker 8: an individual who was on the jury member and he said,
18:13
Speaker 8: we didn't know who did it, but this was our
18:15
Speaker 8: opportunity to make somebody pay. I guess we made a mistake.
18:20
Speaker 8: Sixteen years that's a mistake.
18:22
Speaker 5: I guess We'm interesting. We just had somebody paid, just
18:24
Speaker 5: picked somebody out of the phone book, and just you know,
18:26
Speaker 5: I mean in this case, it was just you know, Alice,
18:29
Speaker 5: what a crazy turn of events. I mean, ultimately Floyd
18:32
Speaker 5: was exonerated, right, and Alice, how did the exoneration come about?
18:37
Speaker 6: So Floyd's case is one of those cases that I
18:40
Speaker 6: think every lawyer who looked at it was really interested
18:43
Speaker 6: in and wanted to help. None of us were going
18:47
Speaker 6: to let go of it. My clinic at k Law School,
18:50
Speaker 6: the Innocence Project there, we took his case on. We
18:53
Speaker 6: probably started working on your case in two thousand and
18:56
Speaker 6: five and went to federal court. And the interesting thing
19:02
Speaker 6: with the federal habeas that we did is that the
19:05
Speaker 6: federal district judge when we filed our habeas, actually ruled
19:09
Speaker 6: in Floyd's favor and issued an opinion that essentially said
19:13
Speaker 6: Floyd was innocent. And this conviction couldn't stand. Once he
19:18
Speaker 6: did that, Floyd said, well, can I be released? And
19:21
Speaker 6: I guess So we asked the federal court to release
19:24
Speaker 6: him while the state appealed, and they did so. Floyd
19:29
Speaker 6: was actually out for a year. That was probably the
19:32
Speaker 6: nine months that was probably the hardest thing for us.
19:35
Speaker 6: The state appealed his case to the Tenth Circuit. I
19:38
Speaker 6: remember when we were about to argue in the Tenth Circuit.
19:42
Speaker 6: I was talking to the state's attorney before we walked
19:45
Speaker 6: up to the podium, and he said to me, we
19:48
Speaker 6: don't think Floyd did it, but we have to protect
19:50
Speaker 6: our jury verdict.
19:51
Speaker 5: Okay, well, let's just think about that for a second.
19:53
Speaker 5: We don't think he did it, but the jury verdict
19:55
Speaker 5: is more important than justice or one person's them and
20:00
Speaker 5: liberty and all that in pursuit of happening to all
20:02
Speaker 5: that stuff is all out the window because we need
20:04
Speaker 5: to protect our jury theoretic because it's a sort of quoint.
20:07
Speaker 6: Well, actually, what gets worse is we lost in the
20:10
Speaker 6: Tenth Circuit because of the standard of review, and the
20:13
Speaker 6: Tenth Circuit said, we're not going to overturn this. Kansas
20:17
Speaker 6: State courts and so we lost and they reversed the
20:22
Speaker 6: federal district judge and I had to call Floyd and
20:26
Speaker 6: tell me how to go back to prison.
20:27
Speaker 5: But then you got them out. We're sitting here.
20:30
Speaker 6: So at that point in time, we filed for DNA testing,
20:34
Speaker 6: and one of our concerns was that the investigation that
20:38
Speaker 6: was originally done, and I think it goes back to
20:40
Speaker 6: what you said at the very beginning that this seemed
20:42
Speaker 6: to be a slam dunk case. So a lot of
20:44
Speaker 6: investigation that should have been done wasn't done. And our
20:47
Speaker 6: biggest concern, I think, was whether or not there'd be
20:51
Speaker 6: evidence to test. That was the largest concern we had.
20:55
Speaker 8: And they actually told me over and over again. They
20:57
Speaker 8: were like, look, we can't go back and fix bad
21:01
Speaker 8: detective work. You can't because we're talking at that time.
21:04
Speaker 7: It was twelve years, yeah, twelve years later.
21:08
Speaker 8: You know, it's not like you can just walk back
21:10
Speaker 8: even a few months and see everything because a lot
21:13
Speaker 8: changes in twelve years.
21:15
Speaker 5: And by the way, and there's no way to tell
21:16
Speaker 5: this story in short of a time as we have
21:19
Speaker 5: here because it's too twisted. But on top of everything else,
21:22
Speaker 5: we can't leave out a couple of important details one
21:25
Speaker 5: is that your dad got involved. At the trial, he
21:28
Speaker 5: testified in favor of your brother, saying that he, you know,
21:31
Speaker 5: he gave him an alibi, He created all kinds of
21:34
Speaker 5: phony alibis and stuff like that, which is so it's
21:37
Speaker 5: like something out of Shakespeare, right, or a Greek tragedy.
21:40
Speaker 5: We find out later that he was actually protecting himself
21:43
Speaker 5: because he helped with covering up and disposing of the
21:45
Speaker 5: body and all that stuff. And yes, he didn't want,
21:48
Speaker 5: you know, he didn't want to go to jail.
21:49
Speaker 8: Well, when we pulled the DNA, that's when we've discovered
21:53
Speaker 8: obviously one of the motives for him to wanting to
21:57
Speaker 8: cover for Tom so hard.
21:58
Speaker 5: Right, And the DNA proved conclusively that not only weren't
22:02
Speaker 5: you the culprit, but that in fact the perpetrator, but
22:04
Speaker 5: in fact it was your brother, and that your dad's
22:07
Speaker 5: DNA was found on her socks, on the victim socks.
22:10
Speaker 5: Because this theory there is that he helped to drag her.
22:13
Speaker 5: It sounds grotesque to the graveside or whatever, and of
22:15
Speaker 5: course that's a crime as well. In protecting himself, he
22:19
Speaker 5: managed to flip the script and get his innocent son
22:23
Speaker 5: sentenced for murder while his guilty son stayed out. And
22:27
Speaker 5: then to wrap up the crazy, right, as if all
22:30
Speaker 5: this wasn't crazy enough, he killed himself. He did right,
22:34
Speaker 5: and he left three suicide notes in which he said,
22:37
Speaker 5: in case anybody wasn't listening the first time, he said
22:40
Speaker 5: it again, that he did it, that you didn't, that
22:44
Speaker 5: he was the sole perpetrator.
22:46
Speaker 7: That he has sent an innocent person to prison.
22:49
Speaker 5: His own brother, right, who's sitting here with me right now.
22:52
Speaker 5: So we hear at the Innoc's Network conference in San Diego,
22:56
Speaker 5: a weekend of healing and hope and strength, and you
22:59
Speaker 5: are a shine example of all of those things. I mean,
23:01
Speaker 5: if you could see and meet Floyd, you know, he's
23:04
Speaker 5: just sort of a I mean, you'd never know, you know,
23:07
Speaker 5: he looks like a guy who won the damn lottery,
23:09
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. And so that's the way
23:11
Speaker 5: he carries himself, which always, I mean all respect to you.
23:14
Speaker 5: I'm always amazed at the joy and grace that the
23:19
Speaker 5: Xneries exhibit. And you're as good of an example as
23:22
Speaker 5: anyone could be. So let's talk about how you got
23:26
Speaker 5: from there to hear right, because you come out of prison,
23:30
Speaker 5: but it ain't so easy after that, is it? No?
23:33
Speaker 8: You know, when an xonerary comes out of prison, they
23:35
Speaker 8: don't have much, if anything at all. Kansas does not
23:39
Speaker 8: have any compensation laws. I'll speak for Kansas because that's
23:42
Speaker 8: what I know. After sixteen years, you make a dollar
23:45
Speaker 8: five a day, and that's only if you work the job.
23:49
Speaker 8: The days you don't work, you don't get paid.
23:51
Speaker 5: Dollar five a day, right, you know, and most and
23:54
Speaker 5: less one more time and no compensation laws and no
23:57
Speaker 5: compensation right. One of the twenty states that has only five.
24:00
Speaker 7: Days for eight hours. Put that on a credit report, right,
24:05
Speaker 7: you know, almost your last shob dollar five a day.
24:09
Speaker 5: Five days a week, and it sounds a lot like
24:11
Speaker 5: five twenty five a week. You know, exactly you made
24:14
Speaker 5: five and twenty five dollars a week. No, not exactly.
24:18
Speaker 8: And so when we come out, you know, the clothes
24:20
Speaker 8: that you see, you know, when I was coming out
24:22
Speaker 8: of the Jefferson County Courthouse, the final shirt of jeans
24:26
Speaker 8: and the shoes that was bought by my attorneys. I
24:29
Speaker 8: had an aunt and an uncle and a few family members,
24:32
Speaker 8: but my aunt and uncle stuck by me for the
24:34
Speaker 8: whole sixteen years.
24:35
Speaker 5: And let's not leave out of this your kids, right,
24:38
Speaker 5: because when you went in and they became victims.
24:40
Speaker 8: Till I had two boys and a wife, she got
24:42
Speaker 8: divorced because obviously, you know, it was her sister in
24:45
Speaker 8: law or it was her sister, and she had the
24:48
Speaker 8: police and the county attorney was telling her all this stuff,
24:51
Speaker 8: lying to her, you know, lying to the family. She
24:55
Speaker 8: took my kids from me, filed to have my rights removed.
24:59
Speaker 8: The I saw I saw my kids prior to my
25:02
Speaker 8: release was November twelfth, at one point thirty in the
25:05
Speaker 8: afternoon of nineteen ninety nine. I gave Cody, who was
25:09
Speaker 8: two and a half at that time, and Christian, who
25:12
Speaker 8: was nine months. I kissed in a hug and said
25:15
Speaker 8: I'll be back in a couple hours, and I never
25:17
Speaker 8: came back. And then for sixteen years I didn't see them.
25:25
Speaker 8: You know, I wrote letters, you know, I had a
25:28
Speaker 8: nice stack of letters wrote to them when I first started.
25:32
Speaker 7: Every day, every day I'd.
25:34
Speaker 8: Write and say I'm coming, Oh, I'll be homes on
25:42
Speaker 8: their birthday, Christmas, everything.
25:47
Speaker 7: You tried not to lose.
25:48
Speaker 8: Hope, and ultimately, after a while I gave up for
25:55
Speaker 8: writing because I had no place to send the letters
25:59
Speaker 8: nobody to read to the boys, to tell them, Hey,
26:03
Speaker 8: I love you, I'm thinking of you. I haven't forgot
26:07
Speaker 8: for sixteen years. I never once forgot my kids. I
26:11
Speaker 8: got a lot of friends that are still in prison,
26:14
Speaker 8: most of them are rightfully there. And I remember once,
26:18
Speaker 8: right before I got released for that short time in
26:20
Speaker 8: two thousand and eight, you know, he was like, Floyd,
26:24
Speaker 8: do you ever think you'll ever be.
26:26
Speaker 7: Able to see your kids?
26:27
Speaker 8: And I said, well, someday I'll be able to see them.
26:32
Speaker 8: Most people were like, you're crazy, You're crazy. You're never
26:36
Speaker 8: going to get out. You keep saying the same thing
26:38
Speaker 8: week after week. And finally in twenty and sixteen, in April,
26:47
Speaker 8: I saw my kids. What was that like, Well, they're
26:51
Speaker 8: much taller. Cody's six almost six y two and Christians
26:57
Speaker 8: five eleven.
26:57
Speaker 5: Wow, because you're not a tall man too. They're in
27:01
Speaker 5: towering over you.
27:02
Speaker 7: Yeah.
27:02
Speaker 5: You know, you left them as these little babies, and
27:06
Speaker 5: now you're looking up at them.
27:07
Speaker 7: Yep.
27:08
Speaker 8: And you know what, there's no two people on this
27:11
Speaker 8: or that I'd rather look up to than those two boys.
27:14
Speaker 5: And they're doing good now in spite of this terrible
27:18
Speaker 5: childhood that they had to endure without their dad and
27:21
Speaker 5: with this being fed these lies and believing that their
27:24
Speaker 5: dad was a child rapist and a murderer, right, And
27:29
Speaker 5: you know what a way to grow up that is.
27:31
Speaker 5: So somehow or other, you persevered in prison, even with
27:35
Speaker 5: this added burden of not being able to contact your kids.
27:38
Speaker 5: And you can see. I mean, I'm looking in your
27:41
Speaker 5: eyes right now, and the pain is it. It's unreal. And
27:45
Speaker 5: as a parent, and I'm sure a lot of people
27:47
Speaker 5: that are out there listening have kids, I'm sure you can,
27:51
Speaker 5: you know, try to imagine what that would be like.
27:53
Speaker 5: But we can't imagine. And that's what's so powerful about
27:56
Speaker 5: this conference. I believe it's being able to get people
27:59
Speaker 5: together who have had similar experiences and you would know
28:02
Speaker 5: better that.
28:02
Speaker 8: Last year was my first conference in San Antonio. I'd
28:06
Speaker 8: been out twelve weeks. Twelve weeks, and you know, I
28:10
Speaker 8: show up here and you're just starstruck because in Kansas
28:14
Speaker 8: you feel like you're all alone. But then you get here.
28:18
Speaker 8: Last year there was one hundred and fifty three Eggsonneries
28:21
Speaker 8: that had been in the same boat. I remember sitting
28:25
Speaker 8: down and eating with Amanda Knox and Ryan Ferguson and finally,
28:29
Speaker 8: you don't have to explain how you feel because they
28:32
Speaker 8: already know. You don't have to answer all the questions
28:35
Speaker 8: of well what do you mean by that? It don't
28:38
Speaker 8: even have to be spoken because we've been through the
28:41
Speaker 8: same or the similar ways. We've all learned how to cope,
28:47
Speaker 8: and you learn how to persevere through it. And there's
28:52
Speaker 8: so much healing, so much renewal here. I've been looking
28:57
Speaker 8: forward to it since when I got back to Kansas
29:00
Speaker 8: City last year, you know, I was looking forward to
29:04
Speaker 8: the next one because you learn that there's people.
29:08
Speaker 5: Just like you. Yeah, Unfortunately, there's thousands of them, and
29:12
Speaker 5: there's then there's tens or hundreds of thousands that are
29:14
Speaker 5: still in the numbers are truly mind boggling. Yeah, for me,
29:18
Speaker 5: it's just an honor and a privilege to be here
29:21
Speaker 5: and be amongst you and the you know, and the
29:23
Speaker 5: other men and women who have so overcome such impossible
29:28
Speaker 5: challenges and odds and tragedies and trauma. To be here
29:31
Speaker 5: and be speaking for the people who are still in really,
29:35
Speaker 5: when you think about it, right, and for each other
29:37
Speaker 5: and stand it up for each other like you do.
29:39
Speaker 8: And that's some of the stuff that I do now
29:41
Speaker 8: is I go to the Kansas Legislature and try to
29:44
Speaker 8: get the laws change to ensure that it doesn't happen.
29:48
Speaker 8: You know, I've spoke on the on the Mandatory Recording
29:51
Speaker 8: Act for Kansas, the recording of interrogation, right, That's one
29:55
Speaker 8: of the biggest causes was you would think that if
29:58
Speaker 8: you have somebody can that you would.
30:01
Speaker 7: Record it, right.
30:02
Speaker 5: I was not smart to me.
30:04
Speaker 8: Jefferson County did not. They did not do any recordings
30:07
Speaker 8: of Tom until November twenty fourth or twenty fifth.
30:11
Speaker 5: It just doesn't make any sense.
30:13
Speaker 7: Everybody else they recorded right off the bat.
30:16
Speaker 5: It's just it's like Alison Wanslan, It's just like through
30:18
Speaker 5: the looking lass. It's just backwards and upside down and
30:20
Speaker 5: inside out. It's nothing that they did make any sense.
30:23
Speaker 5: And I will say for myself, and I think I'm
30:25
Speaker 5: speaking for ninety some percent of the people that are listening,
30:29
Speaker 5: that if we weren't hearing this from your mouth, the
30:32
Speaker 5: story just you know, if I tell this story to someone,
30:35
Speaker 5: they're going to go, no, no, no, you got something wrong there,
30:37
Speaker 5: because it doesn't work like that. It can't work like that.
30:40
Speaker 5: I mean, Alice, you must have the same feeling like
30:42
Speaker 5: it's just totally fucking bizarre.
30:46
Speaker 6: This case is very bizarre, but it's not the only one.
30:48
Speaker 6: And I think that's the sad truth of it is.
30:52
Speaker 6: Floyd and I have been working together for so long,
30:54
Speaker 6: but there's other people that we're going to continue to
30:57
Speaker 6: as a team try and get out.
30:59
Speaker 5: We all have of the shared responsibility, and I think
31:02
Speaker 5: everyone who's listening hopefully will feel the same sense and
31:06
Speaker 5: want to get involved and help, because you can't be
31:09
Speaker 5: around somebody like you, Floyd and not feel like Jesus,
31:12
Speaker 5: that could have been me, because it really could have
31:14
Speaker 5: been any of us. Right, You're just a regular guy.
31:16
Speaker 5: You weren't some career criminal or some sinister like dark
31:20
Speaker 5: force of just a regular guy going about your life
31:23
Speaker 5: with a couple of young kids in the middle of America,
31:25
Speaker 5: you know, just a regular guy.
31:27
Speaker 7: I was working for a drry, just trying to raise
31:30
Speaker 7: my kids on.
31:30
Speaker 5: The farm, right, and then this, Right, And it's just
31:33
Speaker 5: so weird how when the forces of justice they start
31:36
Speaker 5: to churn and they just grind people up, and it's
31:39
Speaker 5: only a miracle that somebody like you can actually survive
31:42
Speaker 5: this ordeal and come out in one piece with a
31:45
Speaker 5: smile on your face. I see how you light up
31:47
Speaker 5: when you're talking about your kids. So now they're twenty
31:51
Speaker 5: and eighteen. Yes, and they're tall enough to be a
31:54
Speaker 5: basketball players and they're doing good. Yes, if you want
31:57
Speaker 5: to talk about that a little bit, sure, a little bit,
31:59
Speaker 5: go ahead.
32:00
Speaker 8: But he's just enlisted in the army. He's going into intelligence.
32:03
Speaker 8: He just finished basic training. He's on his way to
32:06
Speaker 8: go for extended training for intelligence. Christian is a senior
32:11
Speaker 8: in high school. He'll be graduating in May, going to
32:14
Speaker 8: fire fighter school.
32:16
Speaker 5: Amazing, So you got you got a soldier and a
32:18
Speaker 5: fireman yep. And are you close to the kids now?
32:20
Speaker 7: Yes?
32:20
Speaker 8: I try to get up there at least once a
32:22
Speaker 8: month to see him. Cody will be a little harder
32:24
Speaker 8: because now he's out here, but we stay in contact.
32:28
Speaker 5: Now.
32:28
Speaker 8: I do animal portraits, painting and stuff like that.
32:31
Speaker 6: Uh, Floyd learned painting.
32:33
Speaker 5: People see that.
32:34
Speaker 6: You must actually exhibiting right now at the Johnson County
32:38
Speaker 6: Public Library.
32:39
Speaker 8: Yes, and it'll be on exhibit till May fifteenth.
32:42
Speaker 5: But is there a website people can go if they
32:44
Speaker 5: want to just see it, because a lot of people
32:45
Speaker 5: can't get to the.
32:46
Speaker 7: Tonight now yet. You know, I hope to have it
32:47
Speaker 7: up here pretty quick.
32:48
Speaker 5: You let us know when you do it, we'll we'll
32:50
Speaker 5: put it on our site and people can be able
32:52
Speaker 5: to find the Floyd Bloods or maybe you'll turn out
32:55
Speaker 5: to be the next who knows Homer Winslow or something
32:57
Speaker 5: like that, you know.
32:58
Speaker 8: And then I got married November nineteenth last year.
33:02
Speaker 5: Congraduations.
33:03
Speaker 8: She has a seventeen month old So I have a
33:05
Speaker 8: stepson that's seventeen months Blake, and he's a ball.
33:10
Speaker 5: So it's actually kind of a full circle, now, isn't it.
33:13
Speaker 5: Right now you got your kids back. You actually have
33:16
Speaker 5: a young son who's really almost about the same age
33:20
Speaker 5: as one of your kids was when you went in.
33:23
Speaker 5: So it's really a redo. I mean, what a difference
33:27
Speaker 5: to see somebody like you, who would have been literally
33:31
Speaker 5: rotting and suffering in prison for the rest of your
33:34
Speaker 5: life if not for the fact that good people like
33:37
Speaker 5: Alice and others that donate almost all of their time
33:41
Speaker 5: to the cause had come to the rescue and had
33:45
Speaker 5: ultimately proven that what should have been obvious to the
33:49
Speaker 5: authorities all along and really was obvious, you know.
33:52
Speaker 8: And I remember just before we filed for the DNA.
33:56
Speaker 8: I would call Alice and Jeane and Beth.
33:58
Speaker 7: They'd give me the answer.
34:00
Speaker 8: We don't know what we're going to do, but we'll
34:01
Speaker 8: figure out something. It was like, we hit this big
34:04
Speaker 8: little stone wall, and I wrote in the thinking card
34:07
Speaker 8: to the d NKU and I said, when you're instructors
34:12
Speaker 8: and your students hitting the stone wall.
34:14
Speaker 7: They didn't give up and turn around.
34:17
Speaker 8: They picked up the chisel, they picked up the hammer,
34:19
Speaker 8: and they made away. And that's exactly what they did.
34:23
Speaker 8: They gave me my life back.
34:24
Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't make it easy for anyone to get
34:27
Speaker 5: out of prison. I mean, even with extremely talented attorneys
34:31
Speaker 5: and advocates, which you were in that sense lucky to have.
34:34
Speaker 5: A lot of people don't even have that. It's still
34:37
Speaker 5: almost impossible task because they just keep putting up roadbloxed because,
34:40
Speaker 5: like you said, Alice, they want to protect the jury
34:42
Speaker 5: verdict or the wrongful prosecution or the wrong whatever the
34:44
Speaker 5: hell it is. And it's so weird. It's like why
34:49
Speaker 5: why why why? No? This is simple, right, everybody needs
34:55
Speaker 5: to know who really did it.
34:58
Speaker 6: It's hard to convince people. Even when we filed the
35:01
Speaker 6: DNA reports in Floyd's case, the investigators for Jefferson County
35:06
Speaker 6: that were reinvestigating it said, well, this doesn't mean Floyd
35:09
Speaker 6: didn't do it or wasn't involved, and it wasn't really
35:13
Speaker 6: until Tom committed suicide that they were convinced that was
35:17
Speaker 6: the only thing that did it. If we hadn't had
35:19
Speaker 6: that would probably still.
35:20
Speaker 5: Be litigating it. Sounds like if you would have had
35:23
Speaker 5: pictures and photographs of the crime taking place and a
35:25
Speaker 5: timestamped video of you being somewhere else doing something else,
35:30
Speaker 5: they still would have went, well, yeah, they would have
35:33
Speaker 5: come up with it, because we've seen that. I mean,
35:34
Speaker 5: they come up with theories that are just a first
35:37
Speaker 5: grader would go that don't make any sense, But they do,
35:40
Speaker 5: and they did, and you're the living proof of it.
35:43
Speaker 5: But now you're here, so San Diego, what are you
35:45
Speaker 5: going to do? Well, now you're saying going surfing, what
35:47
Speaker 5: do you do out here?
35:48
Speaker 8: Well, Kansas, guys, I've always wanted to write a jet ski,
35:52
Speaker 8: So I'm trying to convince people to write a jet
35:55
Speaker 8: ski with me. But they're not really him because they're like,
35:59
Speaker 8: it's kind of cold in the morning, but hey, what's
36:02
Speaker 8: a little hyperthermia. You know it'll wear off eventually, you know, but.
36:06
Speaker 5: Well, I'm gonna make sure you get on a jet
36:08
Speaker 5: skip if I have to go with you.
36:10
Speaker 8: So I got the chance to go to La Jolla
36:14
Speaker 8: to see the sea lions, uh huh. And those are
36:17
Speaker 8: so awesome because you're just a few feet away. You
36:19
Speaker 8: can almost walk right up to them. I wouldn't recommend
36:22
Speaker 8: petting them because they kind of growl at you, but
36:25
Speaker 8: it's amazing.
36:26
Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't have those in Kansas right now. So
36:30
Speaker 5: I really appreciate you being here. I know it's not easy.
36:34
Speaker 5: I appreciate you being here, and also you being here,
36:36
Speaker 5: so I appreciate you being in San Diego at the conference.
36:39
Speaker 5: I appreciate you being a really remarkable beacon of light
36:42
Speaker 5: and hope. And I really appreciate both of you being
36:45
Speaker 5: guests on this very special edition of Wrongful Conviction with
36:49
Speaker 5: Jason Flomm from the Innocent Network conference, where we are
36:53
Speaker 5: generating so much positive energy that we could probably light
36:56
Speaker 5: up at least a mid size city. Once again, Lloyd Alice,
37:01
Speaker 5: thank you for being here. It's been an extraordinary experience
37:04
Speaker 5: for me. And now let's have some fun sounds grew.
37:07
Speaker 8: Thank you.
37:18
Speaker 5: It's my pleasure, my honor actually to introduce a friend
37:21
Speaker 5: of mine for many years, an incredible man, Cornelius Duprix.
37:26
Speaker 5: He maintains and projects an incredible positive attitude and great energy,
37:31
Speaker 5: and that's why he's now an ambassador to the new
37:34
Speaker 5: ex hoonnaies, helping them adapt to life on the outside.
37:38
Speaker 9: In nineteen eighty, Cornelius dupre was sentenced to seventy five
37:42
Speaker 9: years for aggravated robbery.
37:44
Speaker 1: Cornelius Dupree Junior was just nineteen years old when he
37:48
Speaker 1: first went to jail.
37:49
Speaker 9: The crime included abduction and rate. He has served the
37:52
Speaker 9: longest prison term of any Texas inmate ever cleared through
37:56
Speaker 9: DNA evidence. Pre was released last July on parole after
38:00
Speaker 9: thirty years behind bars. One week later, DNA test results
38:05
Speaker 9: proved his innocence.
38:06
Speaker 5: Cornelius, Welcome to the show.
38:08
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me here.
38:09
Speaker 5: So Cornelius, your story is remarkable in the fact that
38:15
Speaker 5: you served thirty one years in prison, that's correct for
38:19
Speaker 5: a crime you had nothing to do with, had no
38:21
Speaker 5: knowledge of, and no involvement with.
38:23
Speaker 1: That's correct.
38:24
Speaker 5: And this was a crime, I mean, the length of
38:29
Speaker 5: your sentence is extraordinary and unusual even among the axgoneries.
38:35
Speaker 5: But the causes of your wrongful conviction are common. You
38:39
Speaker 5: were a victim of wrongful identification and to some extent racism,
38:44
Speaker 5: I would say, right, And I want to talk about
38:46
Speaker 5: this with wrongful convictions that are based on misidentifications, which
38:50
Speaker 5: is the most common cause of wrongful conviction. It's been
38:53
Speaker 5: proven scientifically that the least accurate form of eywouldness identification
38:59
Speaker 5: is crossration. Yes, and in this case, and I want
39:02
Speaker 5: to go back to it all those years ago, in
39:04
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy nine, right, that's correct, That seems like another century.
39:09
Speaker 5: It was another century actually, and two white people in Dallas,
39:13
Speaker 5: Texas were robbed. It was a couple and the woman
39:17
Speaker 5: was sexually assaulted by two black men. And you and
39:21
Speaker 5: a buddy were out. What were you doing that night?
39:23
Speaker 3: We were on our way to a party, and they
39:26
Speaker 3: had house parties back then.
39:27
Speaker 1: He and I.
39:28
Speaker 3: Decided earlier the day that we was going to attend
39:31
Speaker 3: this party, you know, foo blocks away from where our
39:35
Speaker 3: parents lived. We lived with our parents at that time,
39:38
Speaker 3: So about maybe ten thirty eleven o'clock at night, we
39:41
Speaker 3: proceeded on to attend the party. And before us we
39:45
Speaker 3: acknowledged that there was a couple of squad cars.
39:47
Speaker 1: You know, just sitting there.
39:49
Speaker 3: So we proceeded on to go to the party, and
39:52
Speaker 3: the cops they stopped us and asked us where we
39:55
Speaker 3: were going, and we told them we was on our
39:57
Speaker 3: way to the party, and they at that point asked
40:00
Speaker 3: us to get up against the car and they frished
40:02
Speaker 3: us and find a bag of weed, marijuana and a
40:06
Speaker 3: little darrin of pistol which my co defendant had. So
40:09
Speaker 3: they proceeded to frish us to try to find more
40:12
Speaker 3: stuff out. Soon then we really thought, you know, we
40:16
Speaker 3: were in trouble for the marijuana and the little gun,
40:18
Speaker 3: you know, a little pistol and whatnot.
40:20
Speaker 1: So we were thinking that we were going.
40:21
Speaker 3: To go to jail and possibly get out. You know,
40:23
Speaker 3: we were probationists. I was kind of borderline, you know, juvenile,
40:29
Speaker 3: young adult, you know. I guess they could have made
40:31
Speaker 3: it a felony, you know, a dult felt in the case.
40:34
Speaker 5: Because you were twenty at the time, right.
40:36
Speaker 3: Well, no, I was ninety, yes, nineteen turning twenty. So
40:39
Speaker 3: I was kind of borderline, I think. Yeah, I was
40:40
Speaker 3: an adult straight across the border.
40:43
Speaker 1: I was an adult. He was a young juvenile.
40:45
Speaker 5: Right, And to be fair, as the seventies. Everybody was
40:47
Speaker 5: carrying back then.
40:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, y, yes, that was the thing.
40:50
Speaker 5: But the pistol, you know, a couple of young black
40:52
Speaker 5: eyes and Texas with a pistol. The cops don't They
40:55
Speaker 5: don't like that.
40:55
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's correct.
40:56
Speaker 3: And were they white cops, Yes they were. They were
40:58
Speaker 3: white cops from an all black neighborhood.
41:02
Speaker 5: But you had no idea that this robbery, this sexual
41:06
Speaker 5: assault had taken place, not in the general vicinity.
41:10
Speaker 1: No.
41:10
Speaker 3: Again, I come from an all black neighborhood. You know,
41:13
Speaker 3: it's all black. And from what I gathered, this incident
41:18
Speaker 3: happened man a few miles away, which was another neighborhood.
41:22
Speaker 1: I guess at a convenience.
41:23
Speaker 3: Store something like that. I'm not really for sure. I mean,
41:27
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about it. All I know is
41:30
Speaker 3: they stopped us, asked us where we were going, and
41:32
Speaker 3: put the cuffs on us, and then proceeded to taking
41:35
Speaker 3: us to the count of jail.
41:36
Speaker 5: And then things went really wrong. Yes, sir, you were
41:39
Speaker 5: not a rich guy. No, so you couldn't afford to hire,
41:42
Speaker 5: not by a long shot. Right, So you had a
41:44
Speaker 5: public defender, Yes, I did, And the evidence against you
41:48
Speaker 5: really they had no physical evidence, no, because if they
41:51
Speaker 5: had it, they would have had to lie about that
41:52
Speaker 5: because you weren't there. So the only evidence they had against.
41:55
Speaker 1: You was the marijuana and the pistol, but.
41:57
Speaker 5: That had nothing to do with the client that you
41:59
Speaker 5: were convicted of.
42:00
Speaker 3: Well, they used it as I mean, because I guess
42:04
Speaker 3: the guy was robbed. I mean, I guess that would
42:06
Speaker 3: have took a pistol or something of that sort.
42:09
Speaker 5: Well, but at the same time, I mean, how many
42:11
Speaker 5: people have pistols. We know there's more guns in America
42:13
Speaker 5: than our people, and back then in Texas, I imagine
42:16
Speaker 5: a lot of people are carrying guns. That doesn't prove
42:18
Speaker 5: you assaulted and raped and robed anybody. But there was
42:21
Speaker 5: no physical evidence. There was no biological evidence. There was
42:24
Speaker 5: no sperm or hares or anything else that could have
42:27
Speaker 5: connected you to this crime, which was since it was
42:30
Speaker 5: a crime that was physical in nature, that evidence would
42:33
Speaker 5: have existed and would have been able to be tested.
42:34
Speaker 5: There wasn't DNA technology back then, but there was enough
42:37
Speaker 5: blood type or this or that that they could have tested,
42:40
Speaker 5: and if they had, they would have learned that you
42:42
Speaker 5: were not the guys that did it. Again, it comes
42:44
Speaker 5: back to they had circumstantial evidence, which is, here's these
42:48
Speaker 5: two black guys. There's a lot of black guys though, right,
42:51
Speaker 5: And here's a little gun, right, yes, And I don't
42:53
Speaker 5: want to minimize that as a gun. The weed has
42:56
Speaker 5: nothing to do with anything, right. And then they have
42:58
Speaker 5: these two white people, this couple who made a mistake.
43:01
Speaker 5: I don't think they wanted to identify the wrong pripall.
43:03
Speaker 5: I'm sure they wanted to do it right. But we
43:05
Speaker 5: know now and they knew to an extent then that
43:08
Speaker 5: I went identification it's such an imperfect thing. And then
43:12
Speaker 5: of course there's all the stuff that happened at the
43:13
Speaker 5: police station and the ways that these procedures aren't conducted,
43:17
Speaker 5: whether it's mug shots or lineups or any other thing.
43:22
Speaker 5: We know that there's a lot of there's been a
43:24
Speaker 5: lot of improvement since then, and the Innists Project has
43:26
Speaker 5: been behind a lot of those. But there's a lot
43:27
Speaker 5: still that has to be done to help to diminish
43:31
Speaker 5: the number of wrongful identifications. But in your case, I'm
43:35
Speaker 5: guessing that most of those procedures weren't followed. They had
43:38
Speaker 5: a couple of guys, they probably felt a lot of pressure.
43:40
Speaker 5: This is a crime that, particularly in the South. Nineteen
43:44
Speaker 5: seventy nine, a couple of white people getting sexually assaulted
43:47
Speaker 5: by a couple of black men. They want to get
43:49
Speaker 5: this off their desk, right, They're probably a lot of
43:50
Speaker 5: pressure probably coming from the top, get this solid. And
43:53
Speaker 5: they got a couple of guys and you were one
43:55
Speaker 5: of them. You go to trial. Did you still believe
43:58
Speaker 5: that the system was going to function correct?
44:00
Speaker 1: Well, I have to say no in that regards.
44:03
Speaker 5: As the trial went on, were you becoming more I mean,
44:06
Speaker 5: obviously you had to be scared, but were you said
44:10
Speaker 5: you were a believer in the system, And a lot
44:11
Speaker 5: of the guys that I've interviewed on the show and
44:13
Speaker 5: women have said, yeah, I thought that justice would be
44:16
Speaker 5: done because this doesn't happen. But in your case, when
44:18
Speaker 5: the jury went out, were you expecting that they would
44:22
Speaker 5: convict you and send you to seventy five years in
44:24
Speaker 5: present like they did?
44:26
Speaker 3: Well, that was like my whole cart. It was like
44:31
Speaker 3: I knew I was innocent. I know nothing about this
44:34
Speaker 3: case in which they were allegend that I committed, and
44:38
Speaker 3: so all I had was the system. So I sit
44:42
Speaker 3: in the count of jail or waiting trial so that
44:46
Speaker 3: I can come and sit before the accuser. I really
44:53
Speaker 3: didn't know how the trial system work. I felt that
44:56
Speaker 3: once I go to trial, I would sit before the
44:59
Speaker 3: cue and they would actually see me and say that's
45:03
Speaker 3: the wrong guy.
45:05
Speaker 1: But that's not how it went.
45:07
Speaker 5: That didn't happen. And then the jury went out and
45:10
Speaker 5: they came back in, and then the worst possible result happened. Yes,
45:15
Speaker 5: guilty verdict. Was your family in the courtroom? What was
45:18
Speaker 5: that moment? Like? How did you even deal with it?
45:21
Speaker 3: They did not let my family in the courtroom. They
45:23
Speaker 3: stopped him at the back of the court and for whatever.
45:26
Speaker 1: Reason did not allow them in.
45:28
Speaker 3: I was not allowed to testify due to the public
45:31
Speaker 3: offender that I had told me that it'd be to
45:35
Speaker 3: my best interest not to take the stand because they were.
45:37
Speaker 1: Going to make me look like a you know, a
45:39
Speaker 1: hootlum or something like.
45:41
Speaker 5: This sort public business.
45:43
Speaker 1: Yes, and they were.
45:43
Speaker 3: Saying that it was the burden of proof was on
45:45
Speaker 3: them to prove that I was guilty. That I didn't
45:49
Speaker 3: have to take the stand and to prove my innocence
45:52
Speaker 3: and it being naive, you know, to the law, I said, well,
45:56
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, and I felt like, okay, I really didn't know.
46:01
Speaker 3: So I sit there and once I made that decision,
46:06
Speaker 3: they ate more lunch.
46:08
Speaker 5: So you got cuvict you got sentenced to seventy five
46:11
Speaker 5: years in prison, and your co defender was sentenced to life.
46:14
Speaker 5: And then so many years went by and eventually you
46:18
Speaker 5: found out about the Innocence Project. Had you given up
46:20
Speaker 5: hope by this point or like, you know, you were
46:22
Speaker 5: in for decades already by the time that over two decades.
46:27
Speaker 3: No, no, uh, I never given up hope. I always
46:30
Speaker 3: felt that someday I was going to be released. I
46:35
Speaker 3: just didn't know when that day was gonna come.
46:38
Speaker 5: Because with the seventy five year sentence, they were going
46:40
Speaker 5: to carry you out of there in the box. Yes, possibility,
46:42
Speaker 5: that was the only way you were getting out. But
46:44
Speaker 5: so you wrote a letter to the Innocence Project in
46:46
Speaker 5: two thousand and seven, and obviously we took your case
46:52
Speaker 5: and that was the inn Project New York, and then
46:54
Speaker 5: things started to really turn your way.
46:56
Speaker 1: Yes, it was actually after the O. J. Simpson trial.
46:59
Speaker 3: It was a big trial and whatnot, And I think
47:01
Speaker 3: that's somewhere along there they became kind of well known,
47:05
Speaker 3: you know, DNA and whatnot, and uh, I was one
47:09
Speaker 3: who was very active in the law library, the rich
47:12
Speaker 3: rooms in the prison system. And one of the guys
47:15
Speaker 3: who know that I was working on my case and
47:17
Speaker 3: trying to get out, told me about DNA the introduced
47:21
Speaker 3: you know, told me about the ensign project and that
47:24
Speaker 3: that was some information that I could use concern the
47:27
Speaker 3: NSIN project in DNA.
47:30
Speaker 1: And so I sit in my cell and I.
47:32
Speaker 3: Had to figure out a way because I know I
47:34
Speaker 3: was in jail for robbery that didn't consist of DNA.
47:40
Speaker 1: I was never charged of the rape case.
47:43
Speaker 3: It was dismissed, right, And so when he told me
47:46
Speaker 3: about the DNA and the Innocent project, I had to
47:49
Speaker 3: figure out a way in which I could write this
47:52
Speaker 3: letter to the Niscient Project explaining to them that I
47:56
Speaker 3: was in prison for a robber that I didn't commit,
47:59
Speaker 3: but in the course of this rob but that was
48:01
Speaker 3: also a rape case that occurred that I was never
48:04
Speaker 3: tried for they dismissed, and that if you go back
48:09
Speaker 3: and open up that rape case and do a DNA
48:11
Speaker 3: on it, it's going to show that I didn't I'm
48:14
Speaker 3: not the perpetrator who raped the lady.
48:16
Speaker 1: And if I didn't rape the lady who.
48:19
Speaker 3: Was with the guy in which they said I robbed
48:21
Speaker 3: then I'm not the actual perpetrator.
48:24
Speaker 5: And that's exactly what happened. Fortunately the evidence was preserved,
48:28
Speaker 5: it was tested, and you walked out of prison a
48:32
Speaker 5: freeman in twoenty ten after thirty one years.
48:37
Speaker 1: That's correct.
48:37
Speaker 5: In Texas prisons, which is even saying that name Texas prisons,
48:43
Speaker 5: it just conjures up all kinds of nightmare scenarios. I mean,
48:48
Speaker 5: from the heat to the it's just an unimaginable thing
48:51
Speaker 5: to be able to persevere and overcome. And now now
48:57
Speaker 5: you're an ambassador to new exigneries at the conference.
49:00
Speaker 1: Thank you.
49:01
Speaker 5: You know, I want to ask you specifically about the
49:02
Speaker 5: conference because here you are in sunny San Diego an ambassador.
49:06
Speaker 5: That really means that you're here to help some of
49:09
Speaker 5: the newly exonerated people. I was going to say men,
49:12
Speaker 5: but we know it's men and women. And what's that like?
49:15
Speaker 5: What does that mean to them? What does that mean
49:17
Speaker 5: to you? Because you're viewed as somebody that is extremely
49:21
Speaker 5: respected among the entire community for the way you carry yourself.
49:25
Speaker 5: How does that feel for you and what's the impact
49:28
Speaker 5: of that role?
49:30
Speaker 3: Well, I'm very honored and pleased to have that title,
49:34
Speaker 3: but that it's just a title.
49:36
Speaker 1: To me. I'm very emotional and I take it very personal.
49:41
Speaker 3: When I engage with the guys and welcome these guys
49:45
Speaker 3: in as family. What I try to do is give
49:49
Speaker 3: back what was given to me when I was first released.
49:52
Speaker 3: When I came to my first conference, there was a
49:55
Speaker 3: few guys that came up to me after, you know,
49:58
Speaker 3: being confined for such an long time and being all
50:01
Speaker 3: up tight and not knowing what they expect and not
50:05
Speaker 3: knowing anyone.
50:07
Speaker 1: It's very challenging. It can be very scary because you.
50:11
Speaker 3: Don't know anyone, and being in prison for such a
50:14
Speaker 3: long time, You're in a hard environment.
50:18
Speaker 1: It's a very different environment.
50:21
Speaker 3: It's not an environment in which you embrace people.
50:25
Speaker 1: It's an environment in which you keep people at bay.
50:28
Speaker 1: You know, you keep them away. And so.
50:32
Speaker 3: By the guys embracing me after such a long time
50:35
Speaker 3: and welcomed me home and making me feel a part
50:38
Speaker 3: of family, I took that very personal. That stuck with me,
50:42
Speaker 3: and so throughout the whole time in which I have
50:46
Speaker 3: been free, I was trying to figure out a way
50:48
Speaker 3: in which I can become a part of this platform
50:52
Speaker 3: and give back to these guys and welcome these guys
50:55
Speaker 3: in and allow these guys to know that we are
50:59
Speaker 3: family and we stand by you, and we're gonna support you.
51:03
Speaker 3: We're going to do everything we can me personally in
51:07
Speaker 3: my power to.
51:09
Speaker 1: Make it better for these guys. You know, because.
51:13
Speaker 3: We come from different parts of the world in terms
51:16
Speaker 3: of prison, but we all suffer the same thing and
51:21
Speaker 3: we all can identify with that, and so it's going
51:24
Speaker 3: to take people who understands that to try to make
51:29
Speaker 3: this more of a family atmosphere, more of a welcome home.
51:35
Speaker 5: It's amazing because I heard you use the word family
51:38
Speaker 5: several times in that beautiful speech, and it really is
51:42
Speaker 5: a family. I mean, that's the sense that I get.
51:45
Speaker 5: And the experience of being in that room last night
51:49
Speaker 5: when almost two hundred Dexigneries got on stage, it was
51:53
Speaker 5: a beautiful thing to see and be a part of.
51:55
Speaker 5: And the speeches that were made and the hugging and
51:59
Speaker 5: the dancing and the connecting of people who have shared this.
52:03
Speaker 5: You know, everybody in that room is a member of
52:06
Speaker 5: a club that nobody wants to belong to. But now
52:09
Speaker 5: it's amazing because every single exonery I've been privileged to
52:14
Speaker 5: spend time with is so devoted to helping their fellow
52:20
Speaker 5: exunarees and making a difference in not only improving their lives,
52:25
Speaker 5: but in helping other people who are still stuck in
52:27
Speaker 5: the system. And that's what we're here to do on
52:29
Speaker 5: the show, is to educate people and inform people and
52:33
Speaker 5: try to prevent the next Cornelius Dupree from ever happening,
52:37
Speaker 5: you know, ever getting into the system. You know, once
52:39
Speaker 5: you get started on this work, I was lucky I
52:42
Speaker 5: sort of stumbled into it twenty something years ago. You
52:45
Speaker 5: can't stop, you know, you can't stop because there's no
52:48
Speaker 5: better feeling. And I see it in your eyes when
52:50
Speaker 5: you're talking about it. How you're able to do it now.
52:53
Speaker 5: It's a high, that is it's impossible to even put
52:55
Speaker 5: it into words. So we talked about the worst moment
52:59
Speaker 5: of life when you were wrongfully convicted and sentenced to
53:03
Speaker 5: spend the rest of your life in prison. What's the
53:06
Speaker 5: best thing that's happened since you've been out.
53:08
Speaker 3: Being married, getting married to my wife after courting my
53:12
Speaker 3: wife for such a long time. My wife is my
53:15
Speaker 3: best friend, She's my support system.
53:18
Speaker 1: As you know, I met my wife while I was
53:20
Speaker 1: in prison.
53:21
Speaker 3: I've actually known my wife for twenty some years prior
53:25
Speaker 3: to me getting out of prison and married my wife.
53:28
Speaker 1: So my wife's been there practically thirty years.
53:31
Speaker 5: How did you meet her? Let's go back to that.
53:33
Speaker 3: Well, I met my wife while I was in prison.
53:36
Speaker 3: My wife was actually a prison guard. Incredible, Yes, my
53:39
Speaker 3: wife was. She was going to sam Houston her she
53:43
Speaker 3: major in criminology. She was on her way to possibly
53:47
Speaker 3: becoming a warden at some point in time, and she
53:50
Speaker 3: was actually a prison guard. I befriend my wife first.
53:54
Speaker 3: She was someone who I highly respected. She had no
53:57
Speaker 3: clue who I was. I had no idea that she
54:00
Speaker 3: would become my wife. Again, she was a lady who
54:04
Speaker 3: I highly respected. My job in prison kind of allowed
54:08
Speaker 3: me to kind of get a little up close and
54:10
Speaker 3: personal with the guards, you know, being that I had
54:13
Speaker 3: been in prison such a long time, I was one
54:15
Speaker 3: who was pretty much trusted, you know.
54:18
Speaker 1: I had a job that allowed me.
54:19
Speaker 3: To intermingle with some of the guards, and so she
54:22
Speaker 3: was one who I used to talk to a great deal.
54:24
Speaker 3: My wife is a minister, so she was always talking
54:29
Speaker 3: about Christ.
54:30
Speaker 1: She's very religious. Auented and that's what won me over.
54:35
Speaker 3: That was one of the prayers in which I prayed
54:37
Speaker 3: to God to send me a Christian woman in my
54:39
Speaker 3: life to kind of help.
54:40
Speaker 1: Me stay the course. I never knew it would be her.
54:44
Speaker 5: It's an incredible love story. I mean, but you can't
54:46
Speaker 5: see through the radio, but Cornelius is a very stylish
54:51
Speaker 5: and handsome, distinguished looking gentleman. But still you have to
54:54
Speaker 5: have an incredible amount of game right to be able
54:58
Speaker 5: to meet the woman of your while you're on the inside. Right.
55:02
Speaker 5: You've got tens of millions of people out here on
55:04
Speaker 5: different dating websites can't even find love, and you found
55:07
Speaker 5: it in the most hellish place on earth. It's just
55:10
Speaker 5: really beautiful that you found each other however, even though
55:13
Speaker 5: it was a horrible circumstance, and that we're able to
55:16
Speaker 5: connect on the outside and create a family. And I
55:18
Speaker 5: see when you're talking about I see the love in
55:21
Speaker 5: your eyes. It's amazing. So I would like to ask
55:25
Speaker 5: you if there's anything at all that you want to say.
55:28
Speaker 3: Well, I would just like to say to kind of
55:31
Speaker 3: enlighten people about what the Innocent Project is all about.
55:34
Speaker 3: I really wanted to know that we are family. I
55:37
Speaker 3: feel that we are now a community. There are so
55:41
Speaker 3: many innocent men and women nowadays that we are actually
55:45
Speaker 3: a community within ourselves. And that's good, that's great because
55:51
Speaker 3: we can all identify with each other's hurt. There's a
55:56
Speaker 3: big word around us that doesn't quite understand what actually
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Speaker 3: we literosten see is what the Innocent Project is all about.
56:03
Speaker 3: And the people who have roamly been in prison, these
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Speaker 3: people all suffer. We all suffer from some form of PTSD,
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Speaker 3: and we need to be close and identify with one another,
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Speaker 3: talk to one another so that we can start the
56:19
Speaker 3: healing process.
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Speaker 1: This is what it's all about.
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Speaker 5: So to add to that, I always like to give
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Speaker 5: people a way to get involved, right and so of
56:30
Speaker 5: course you've heard me say the number of times. Please
56:33
Speaker 5: go to www dot nssproject dot org. You can learn
56:37
Speaker 5: more about Cornelius and his case and his life, learn
56:41
Speaker 5: how to get involved. Is there another any other website
56:44
Speaker 5: that you'd recommend? Or that's that's the place to go.
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Speaker 1: Yes, that's that's the place to go.
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Speaker 5: That's the place to go. Please join us, join us
56:51
Speaker 5: in this movement. There's so many more people in this
56:54
Speaker 5: tragic situation, and we gotta. We got to give them
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Speaker 5: the hope and give them the ability to get there,
57:00
Speaker 5: get back out on the outside and achieve the freedom
57:04
Speaker 5: that they deserve. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.
57:12
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm
57:16
Speaker 5: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really
57:19
Speaker 5: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause
57:22
Speaker 5: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject
57:26
Speaker 5: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.
57:29
Speaker 5: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and
57:32
Speaker 5: Kevin Wortis. The music in the show is by three
57:35
Speaker 5: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
57:38
Speaker 5: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at
57:42
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a
57:45
Speaker 5: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal
57:49
Speaker 5: Company Number one
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Speaker 8: Ye