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Sam Altman’s Merge Labs Explores Gene Therapy for Brain-AI Interface · Elon Musk Podcast

• 0:01
  Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Elon Musk
• 0:04
  Podcast. This is a show where we discuss
• 0:07
  the critical crossroads, the Shape, SpaceX, Tesla X, The
• 0:11
  Boring Company, and Neurolink. I'm your host Will Walden.
• 0:17
  Sam Altman is working on a brain chip venture that may try
• 0:21
  something no major competitor has attempted before, changing
• 0:26
  how brain cells work using gene therapy.
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  Merge Labs, which is the startup associated with Altman and Open
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  AI's venture arm, is considering a method that would genetically
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  alter brain cells so they can better interface with implanted
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  technology, People familiar with the plans say.
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  This includes using ultrasound to communicate with those
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  altered cells. Now the goal is to build a brain
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  computer interface that allows seamless interaction between
• 0:54
  human thought and AI tools like ChatGPT, Altman said publicly.
• 1:00
  He wants to be able to think something and get a ChatGPT
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  response without needing to speak or type, you know?
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  This idea sits far outside what companies like Neurolink
• 1:10
  currently focus on. Elon Musk's firm is pushing
• 1:13
  forward with electrode based implants that read and stimulate
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  brain activity electronically. And Neurolink raised $650
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  million this year and now holds a valuation of $9 billion.
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  Merge Labs wants to go a different direction, though,
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  tapping into sonogenetics, which is a research field that studies
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  how to make cells respond to ultrasound through genetic
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  engineering. Sonogenetics isn't a new field,
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  but using it in a commercial brain chip product would be a
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  major leap forward. Researchers have spent years
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  exploring how cells can be sensitized to sound waves.
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  Merge is evaluating whether gene therapy can make specific
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  neurons react predictably to ultrasound, which could then be
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  used to send and receive brain signals.
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  This method may allow less invasive implants, since
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  ultrasound can pass through tissues more easily than
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  electrical signals. The hardware involved would also
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  break new ground. Sources say that Merge is
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  looking at embedding an ultrasound device into the human
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  skull to work with the modified brain tissue.
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  This setup could allow for real time detection and control of
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  neurological activity without relying on wires or probes
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  inserted deep inside of your brain.
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  And if this technology ends up working, it may enable smoother
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  interaction between the brain and digital systems, with fewer
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  physical risks than traditional electrodes.
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  Now, Open AI has not confirmed the details publicly, though,
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  and Altman said the deal has not been finalized.
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  Still, Altman's presence around the project is very visible.
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  He plans to Co found the company, though he will not take
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  an operational role or personally invest in it.
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  Much of the early funding, expected a total $250 million,
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  will come from Open a Eyes venture.
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  Arm Merge is currently valued at 850 million, according to three
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  people with direct knowledge of the funding talks.
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  Altman is working on the project alongside Alex Blania, who
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  currently leads Worldcoin, which is a separate venture that uses
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  iris scans to verify digital identities.
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  Blania has close ties to Almond through Worldcoin, another
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  project backed by Opening Eye leadership.
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  Altman previously invested in Musk's Neuralink, but the two
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  entrepreneurs are now not quite friends, and they're now
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  competing head to head in the brain interface space.
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  The rivalry escalated after Musk sued Open AI for straying from
• 3:40
  its original nonprofit mission. Now brain computer interface, or
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  BCI, companies are multiplying, but few are pursuing the path
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  Merge appears to be taking. Nerlink is still the most high
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  profile BCI company and has begun human testing for treating
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  paralysis. Others like Precision
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  Neuroscience and Synchron focus on non invasive or semi invasive
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  implants designed to assist people with neurological
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  disorders. These companies rely on reading
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  electrical signals from the brain, often requiring surgical
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  insertion of electrodes. Emerge stands out by potentially
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  combining genetic engineering with ultrasound, aiming for a
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  system that works through acoustic stimulation of modified
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  brain tissue. That route could avoid problems
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  associated with electrodes like scar tissue or long term signal
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  degradation. However, it could also take
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  years before the safety and reliability of this approach is
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  proven in humans, and the technology will require
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  overcoming major scientific hurdles, particularly around
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  targeted gene delivery and long term tissue response.
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  Ultrasound has gained momentum in neuroscience research as a
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  non evasive way to influence brain activity.
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  Start-ups like Nudge in Others, backed by investors including
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  Fred ESM and Reed Hoffman, are developing helmets that are
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  focused on using ultrasound to stimulate specific brain
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  regions. These devices are aimed at
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  treating psychiatric disorders without implants, and Merge
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  would be among the first to pursue implanted ultrasound
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  combined with cell modification. Now, Open AI has not officially
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  commented on its role in the Merge product.
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  However, the company's venture fund is expected to provide a
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  large share of the capital needed to bring the project to
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  life. And if successful, Merge could
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  redefine how humans interact with AI systems, bypassing
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  screens and keyboards for something closer to direct
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  thought transmission. And it's still an early
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  development, and the gene therapy approach could shift or
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  be scrapped, depending on technical feasibility.
• 5:44
  And But for now, Altman is backing a plan that challenges
• 5:46
  the standard brain chip road map by blending genetics, sound, and
• 5:51
  computing. Hey, thank you so much for
• 5:53
  listening today. I really do appreciate your
• 5:55
  support. If you could take a second and
• 5:57
  hit the subscribe or the follow button on whatever podcast
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  platform that you're listening on right now, I greatly
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  appreciate it. It helps out the show
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  tremendously, and you'll never miss an episode.
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  And each episode is about 10 minutes or less to get you
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  caught up quickly. And please, if you want to
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  support the show even more, go to patreon.com/stagezero and
• 6:20
  please take care of yourselves and each other and I'll see you
• 6:22
  tomorrow.