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Resilience, Flow, And The Future Of Accounting · Difference Makers Podcast

• 0:23
  Sinead Donovan: Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to everyone who has tuned into this episode of Difference Makers Discuss Live.
• 0:31
  Sinead Donovan: I'm Sinead Donovan, and I am really excited for this episode.
• 0:36
  Sinead Donovan: It is, I think, the first time that we've had a second bite of the cherry with two of our contributors.
• 0:43
  Sinead Donovan: Earlier this year spoke to Brad Hook and Declan Scott, who co-authored the inaugural report um on global um resilience and well-being for chartered accountants worldwide, and looked at the resilience and well-being in the profession.
• 1:02
  Sinead Donovan: And we um met with the two guys earlier in the year and dug into some of the report findings.
• 1:08
  Sinead Donovan: So, what I would say is if you haven't watched that episode, what you need to do directly after this episode is go back and look at that episode because that will set the scene for the key findings of the inaugural survey and report.
• 1:22
  Sinead Donovan: So some of the key strengths that the charged accountants had uh for dealing with res uh resilience was um creativity, altruism, and curiosity.
• 1:32
  Sinead Donovan: Um and they were the ones that armed us well for resilience and well-being.
• 1:37
  Sinead Donovan: But then I guess probably more importantly, some of the challenges that the um the survey found that charged accountants had were our ability or our need to constantly multitask, which kind of gave rise to hypervigilance and then gave rise or contributed to uh an inability to sleep or rest.
• 1:59
  Sinead Donovan: And so what charged accountants worldwide have done is they've taken that report, they've created the well-being hub on the website, and they've given some tips, some learnings, some suggestions as to how best to arm ourselves as charged accountants to help in this need to be resilient in our profession.
• 2:20
  Sinead Donovan: And the next part of the adventure is going to be a survey in Q1 of next year, 2026, and we will revisit to see if any of those interventions or learnings have helped with um with some of the results we see.
• 2:38
  Sinead Donovan: And I'm delighted to say that Brad and Declan are gonna be involved in that, interpreting those results again and writing the report.
• 2:45
  Sinead Donovan: So Brad and Declan, you're very welcome.
• 2:49
  Sinead Donovan: That was a very long-winded introduction.
• 2:51
  Sinead Donovan: So, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna turn to you, Brad, in the first instance, and just check if there's anything else you'd like to add on that summary of the initial report.
• 3:00
  Sinead Donovan: And then maybe give us some insights as to what you might hope to see in the second survey or what you are seeing in the globe in general around the journey uh for resilience and well-being.
• 3:14
  Brad Hook: Well, thank you so much for having us.
• 3:16
  Brad Hook: It's a pleasure to be here once again.
• 3:18
  Brad Hook: So, from the original report, what really stood out, as you said, is this kind and curious nature of accountants and their creativity really shines through.
• 3:30
  Brad Hook: And people don't often acknowledge people in the finance profession as being kind and curious and creative, but there is so much of that there, but not necessarily to ourselves.
• 3:42
  Brad Hook: And it's those rhythms of resilience that can really support us, including some skills.
• 3:48
  Brad Hook: And as you said, what might we discover in the follow-up assessment?
• 3:53
  Brad Hook: Because our preferred process is to measure, provide some form of resilience training or intervention, and then measure again.
• 4:01
  Brad Hook: We believe if we can measure something, we can take action, we get that insight.
• 4:06
  Brad Hook: And what we usually see is improvements in daily rhythms.
• 4:11
  Brad Hook: That's a quick win.
• 4:12
  Brad Hook: Can I create some calm under pressure?
• 4:15
  Brad Hook: And it can be as simple as a one-minute breathwork exercise, or can I create some space and boundaries, bookending the beginning and the end of the day?
• 4:26
  Brad Hook: So there's a morning and an evening by design, which can make a huge difference.
• 4:31
  Brad Hook: Remember what we practice is what we become.
• 4:33
  Brad Hook: So if I practice uh multitasking, task switching all day long, high pressure, it's not going to go away just because it's 9 or 10 p.m.
• 4:41
  Brad Hook: I'll still continue to practice these habits.
• 4:45
  Brad Hook: So creating some rhythms of resilience, and we hope that we see some shifts, especially around sleep, uh, around tactical, calm tools that can really help everyone just to downregulate that nervous system response so that we're more calm, focused, and connected in the moments that matter.
• 5:04
  Brad Hook: So these are all learnable skills when people have some kind of intervention.
• 5:08
  Brad Hook: We usually see some great results.
• 5:10
  Brad Hook: But I'll pass over to Declan.
• 5:14
  Declan Scott: Thank you, Brad.
• 5:14
  Declan Scott: Hi, Shanid.
• 5:16
  Sinead Donovan: Hi, Declan.
• 5:16
  Sinead Donovan: How are you?
• 5:17
  Sinead Donovan: A fellow Irish charged accountant.
• 5:20
  Declan Scott: Yes, 30 years this year since I qualified.
• 5:23
  Declan Scott: So I've got a few grey hairs now to prove it.
• 5:26
  Declan Scott: And it's close to my heart, this topic, uh, having come through the profession and knowing the intensity that many young people experience as they go through this stage in their career development, and there's often a lot of uncertainty mixed in there as well.
• 5:41
  Declan Scott: So I wish I'd known some of these things now, 30 years ago when I was coming into the profession and been able to establish some good building blocks, foundational building blocks and rhythms that would have no doubt helped me.
• 5:56
  Declan Scott: And you know, many people coming into the profession, and there's so much variety now in the in the profession.
• 6:02
  Declan Scott: It's not, you know, there's it's not the traditional path of just going into a practice.
• 6:07
  Declan Scott: Now there's so many ways of getting involved.
• 6:09
  Declan Scott: So trying to create uh, you know, some sort of support network for chartered accountants, young chartered accountants in particular, to help them deal with the avalanche of information and the choices, almost too many choices, and you know, the the overwhelm that we feel very much relates back to our cognitive overwhelm.
• 6:32
  Declan Scott: And that is that's endemic across the world in all the companies.
• 6:37
  Declan Scott: Uh, you know, I've I'm based in North America, and it's you know, every company I'm going into now, very, very similar trends showing up where people are really struggling under that weight, but it starts as a cognitive risk, and and then our bodies become overwhelmed, and we don't understand how to regulate our thought process, our emotional process, and very often it is back to coming into your body and really trusting your body and taking care of your body, taking care of the basics.
• 7:05
  Declan Scott: And that's what I ignored for many years when I was younger and could get away with it.
• 7:10
  Declan Scott: And so I think this is an important conversation to bring not only to the members themselves, but also to the leadership of today and their responsibility to support uh the next generation uh through that experience now that that we've we've gleaned from from those years and how to help people navigate this barrage of information.
• 7:32
  Declan Scott: So I'm excited to see where the the next report, what it reveals.
• 7:37
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah, and I think you've touched on something really critical there, um, Declan.
• 7:41
  Sinead Donovan: So I I was a partner in um uh a large firm here in Ireland for over 25 years, and a couple of things struck me from my experience as you spoke.
• 7:50
  Sinead Donovan: The first thing is that that kind of need to be always switched on and to multitask, it's almost drilled in well, it is drilled into us from day one, as when we go to stand into the profession, and especially if you're in public um practice, um, because you know, time is money, um, and and and if you're able to do a number of tasks at once, um it's great.
• 8:13
  Sinead Donovan: And what I'm seeing now is there's potentially a little bit of a crash is the wrong word, but sort of meeting of the generations, and so the leaders might still think that's the best way to go about it.
• 8:27
  Sinead Donovan: But what I'm hearing from both of you is that multitasking and all of the pressures that come with that and all of the the the add-ons is not good for for for for anyone, but it's also not necessarily good for business.
• 8:40
  Sinead Donovan: So, how do we as a profession kind of marry the leaders who might have grown up in that um environment with with the students of today who we're saying need to break that chain?
• 8:54
  Sinead Donovan: Um how do how do how do we do that as a profession?
• 8:58
  Sinead Donovan: It's a huge question, and I'm involved in education, so I'm I'm trying to know who wants to take that one.
• 9:04
  Declan Scott: Well, I will take it and then Brad will actually make it better.
• 9:07
  Declan Scott: Is that the right word?
• 9:11
  Declan Scott: He will give it the four-year review, but it's um you know the intensity of working, particularly, you know, on a charge, time-based charging.
• 9:21
  Declan Scott: And you know, I remember when I was in the profession every six minutes, and there was this constant pressure to have to to demonstrate value.
• 9:29
  Declan Scott: And I know I I came through the tax stream at the time, so it was always I was more obsessed with what I didn't know.
• 9:37
  Declan Scott: I knew there were I like I knew a lot, but there was a lot I didn't know, so it was constantly having to kind of um see if I was doing it correctly.
• 9:45
  Declan Scott: There was a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves as well, uh, and obviously this the structure of the profession is there to help grow people, and I think it's important to distinguish between performing and growing.
• 9:57
  Declan Scott: Um, you know, we we often talk about performance and high performance, but I think what's a lot of young people now today, and I've got you know three, two teenagers, uh one just leaving university, and I know they're not lazy, they're not lazy.
• 10:13
  Declan Scott: It's not that they're not willing to work hard, you know.
• 10:15
  Declan Scott: My daughter's just done her finals and unbelievable pressure and work ethic.
• 10:20
  Declan Scott: And so I feel very good about this generation coming in because they're tremendously passionate, and we've got to maintain that passion when they come into work, and sometimes it feels like to go from this learning growth mindset into performance, and I'm gonna do this same thing over and over again to be to become an expert in it, and so that specialism can be a really difficult transition for a young person where they've done so much in university and projects and juggling things and subjects, and then they're back, they're into a field that might feel quite limited, where they don't feel connected to a purpose, don't feel connected to a bigger outcome.
• 10:57
  Declan Scott: So, for leaders to to really help people see that this is a growth journey, I think that's important to paint that picture as well, to help you know, really invest in people's well-being as well as their growth in what they possibly can become.
• 11:13
  Declan Scott: Because literally, as a chartered accountant now, the world is your oyster.
• 11:16
  Declan Scott: But it takes a while before you can actually look up and realize that from some of the mundane tasks you might be given when you enter the profession originally, where you have to be, you know, held to keep it safe and all of those things.
• 11:29
  Declan Scott: So I think there's so much confusing messages for young people knowing who are impatient, let's face it.
• 11:35
  Declan Scott: As a 20-year-old or 22-year-old, you want to know everything and you want to get on with your life, and and I think that's a hard environment to create safety for those people, also a growth path, a pathway for them to see possibility and to learn, uh, rather than just be performing routine or mundane tasks.
• 11:54
  Declan Scott: And and ultimately the the leader themselves, and it it's important that if one's observing them, that they're living on purpose, that they are taking care of themselves.
• 12:05
  Declan Scott: I think that was the thing that that finished me with the profession when I was working in practice.
• 12:10
  Declan Scott: I looked at the leaders of the day and went, hey, I I could work really hard for the next 10 years and it wouldn't, that's where I'd be, and it didn't inspire me.
• 12:19
  Declan Scott: And so I think it's really important that that we stand up to scrutiny ourselves in how we show up each day and how people observe us and whether we're the kind of leader that's inspiring people or not.
• 12:31
  Sinead Donovan: And yeah, yeah.
• 12:33
  Sinead Donovan: No, and I mean I'm with you on the whole the current the or the Gen Zs or the Gen Alphas and everything.
• 12:38
  Sinead Donovan: I I don't put them in the bucket of lazy at all.
• 12:41
  Sinead Donovan: Um, I do think there needs to be some sort of a working relationship that is really harnessed between the the intergenerations to ensure they understand each other.
• 12:50
  Sinead Donovan: Rad, do you want to add anything to that?
• 12:52
  Sinead Donovan: Because it's such a huge topic that really influences everything going forward.
• 12:58
  Brad Hook: Absolutely.
• 12:58
  Brad Hook: So what we do see is increasing anxiety amongst the younger workers.
• 13:03
  Brad Hook: And that's across the board.
• 13:05
  Brad Hook: It's not just our research that shows that, but uh, we do see, in fact, uh publications like The Anxious Generation.
• 13:13
  Brad Hook: But and we see that ever since the introduction of smartphone technology, young people have increased, experienced increased anxiety and worry and distress.
• 13:23
  Brad Hook: However, as a leader navigating this changing world, first what we recommend is you know be adaptable, recognize that everyone has different working styles.
• 13:34
  Brad Hook: And in fact, for over 20 years, what we've discovered is those leaders scoring highest in resilience do model the rhythms of recovery, performance, care, performance, care.
• 13:45
  Brad Hook: And what we mentioned in our latest global report is perhaps consider a culture of coaching.
• 13:53
  Brad Hook: So instead of that top-down leadership approach, understand each person in your team, understand what motivates them, what gives them a sense of purpose and passion and what energizes them and what are some of those risks.
• 14:07
  Brad Hook: And we use our resilience assessment for exactly this purpose because it uncovers factors that you may not have even considered, and really get to know them.
• 14:17
  Brad Hook: And that's that affiliative leadership style.
• 14:19
  Brad Hook: And ignite that sense of purpose because if you can align what people are doing day to day with something bigger than just KPIs or performance, you know, we're actually helping people solve complex problems, enhancing their experience of work in life.
• 14:38
  Brad Hook: Wow.
• 14:38
  Brad Hook: Well, suddenly we found a way not to manipulate, but to connect what someone is doing, the grind, with something greater.
• 14:47
  Brad Hook: And being able to adopt that coaching mindset, as I mentioned, you know, what would it take for you to reduce your distress and anxiety?
• 14:55
  Brad Hook: How could we create some rhythms that will help you and boundaries in the evenings?
• 15:00
  Brad Hook: This is perhaps the key to supporting Generation Zed and Generation Alpha who are coming very, very soon.
• 15:07
  Brad Hook: But I think emotion regulation skills, as we said before, these things are all trainable.
• 15:12
  Brad Hook: So provide some interventions for your young people and then connect what they're doing day to day with purpose and consider you as a manager or as a leader adopting the mindset of a coach.
• 15:23
  Sinead Donovan: So one of the things I want to unpack there that you said is you mentioned that this um younger generation or GNZ have increased anxiousness, and and and that's I'm not surprised with that.
• 15:35
  Sinead Donovan: Um as a mom, as a as a as a former uh leader of a firm, my gut is that is something to do with the avalanche of technology, of social media, of immediacy.
• 15:48
  Sinead Donovan: Um, and to me, therefore, human connection is really critical to balance that.
• 15:55
  Sinead Donovan: And that might be the per the purpose that you're talking about.
• 15:58
  Sinead Donovan: But I guess my question to you is as leaders, is that human interaction and human connectivity really important to try to flatten that anxiousness for them?
• 16:10
  Brad Hook: Absolutely, and we've seen some great examples of this where in some consulting firms where we've worked, we discovered that Gen Z females were scoring really low, whereas those over 50 were scoring really high.
• 16:26
  Brad Hook: So by understanding that, there was an opportunity to create some mentorship and create some connection.
• 16:32
  Brad Hook: Additionally, absolutely, and Declan can expand on this because I know he's done a lot of work in the area, but social media is definitely fragmenting our attention.
• 16:42
  Brad Hook: The some recent research suggests that on average, adults, so this is across the board, can maintain focus for around 47 seconds before becoming distracted.
• 16:52
  Brad Hook: 47 seconds happens to be about the length of your average real or short.
• 16:56
  Brad Hook: So this idea of scrolling, which has become habitual, has fragmented our attention combined with multitasking, which we all struggle with, as revealed by our latest global report.
• 17:10
  Brad Hook: We are as fragmented as ever.
• 17:13
  Brad Hook: We jump from task to task to task.
• 17:15
  Brad Hook: Often there's this phenomenon of mental residue.
• 17:18
  Brad Hook: A little bit of the previous task remains with us and we don't always loop back.
• 17:22
  Brad Hook: It's becoming more and more challenging than ever to stay focused.
• 17:26
  Brad Hook: But again, attention control is a trainable skill.
• 17:29
  Brad Hook: Monotasking, the opposite of multitasking, uh, can make a big difference if we can just really try and focus on one thing at a time, creating space for perhaps scrolling.
• 17:42
  Brad Hook: I think that we should all just build that as a rhythm into the day.
• 17:45
  Brad Hook: It's not realistic to say stop doing that, that practice that we all have introduced into our lives.
• 17:51
  Brad Hook: But perhaps it's about time for flow state, which is our high performance zone, then time for connection, those meetings that are really important, then time for emails and communication and scrolling and creating some rhythms over the course of the day.
• 18:06
  Brad Hook: So it's not just everything all at once.
• 18:08
  Brad Hook: But I know Declan's done a lot of work in this area.
• 18:12
  Declan Scott: Yeah, I was um I went out for a walk this morning in the forest behind me, as you can see.
• 18:17
  Declan Scott: And uh, you know, some countries are very good at supporting their people to get out into nature, to create space, to create uh opportunities to reconnect with the rhythm.
• 18:30
  Declan Scott: And I suggest it's the rhythm of the earth, the rhythm of the world, the you know, the the seasons, everything, everything works in rhythm.
• 18:36
  Declan Scott: And so we have become very exposed to to many different medias all the time.
• 18:43
  Declan Scott: So I think this cognitive risk I mentioned earlier, that we look, we're in a world where you can be constantly in the go mode, as you mentioned, the constantly on.
• 18:56
  Declan Scott: And if you don't establish some rhythm and discipline in that, it's going to be very difficult for you to regulate, to emotionally regulate.
• 19:04
  Declan Scott: And it feels like a constant overwhelm.
• 19:07
  Declan Scott: Now, the interesting thing is emotions affect our physiology more than even thoughts do.
• 19:12
  Declan Scott: And so when we're in an emotional roller coaster, it's affecting our body.
• 19:18
  Declan Scott: And the more that you can do to get back into your body, and whether that be to connect with nature, to create you know some discipline in our workday and in our teamwork.
• 19:30
  Declan Scott: You know, the our report talks about this that you know, with the blurred lines between work and home now, there's I think it was Brad, 16% more after 8 p.m.
• 19:41
  Declan Scott: calls and 50 messages after hours on average, and you know, we're getting interrupted every two minutes, and like in some cases up to 1200 um different, you know, things each day that we're switching between.
• 19:58
  Declan Scott: And so when you think about the average human, we're not designed for this.
• 20:02
  Declan Scott: This is not in our design.
• 20:04
  Declan Scott: So it's it's not that as such, it's a human limitation, it's not a skill set, it's a human limitation that if we could have overcome it by now, we would.
• 20:13
  Declan Scott: Just like we if we could have overcome needing sleep, we would.
• 20:16
  Declan Scott: We'd have done it without sleep by now.
• 20:18
  Declan Scott: And so it is part of our biology that we actually cannot continue working in this manner and do so effectively.
• 20:25
  Declan Scott: And it is draining, it is draining a lot of our resources.
• 20:29
  Declan Scott: And look at your body like a battery, a car battery, it's an energy source.
• 20:33
  Declan Scott: And so the more that you can work on managing your energy actively and including the sleep in that, including your movement, including exercise, rather than constantly feeling you're you're just drinking from a fire hose, that's important.
• 20:46
  Declan Scott: Um, none of us do it terribly well when it comes to this particular area of you know, intensity, multitasking, hypervigilance, worry, all of these things that we're all very, very familiar with.
• 20:57
  Declan Scott: Our younger generation are even more exposed to it.
• 21:00
  Declan Scott: You know, when you get to my age, it's like you've got a little bit more composure and maybe connection to your meaning and you have a different perspective on it.
• 21:07
  Declan Scott: But when you're vulnerable and at that early stage of your career, and it's it's like what you think I have to do, I have to keep up with everything, and there's huge expectations on ourselves, it is difficult to navigate.
• 21:21
  Declan Scott: As I said, I think on our reports, Brad, was it uh maybe the best performers were still only at 31% on multitasking, it was like a very practical percentage.
• 21:32
  Declan Scott: And I'm seeing it in every company where they think that it's about multitasking and being in building in intensity to get things done, it actually isn't, it's it's more about um slowing down to go fast.
• 21:45
  Declan Scott: Or, you know, I I love the a quote by I think it was Herbert Simon, who was like a wealth of information uh creates a poverty of attention, and that's the world that we live in, is we're in an attention-deprived environment.
• 21:59
  Declan Scott: And so when you start to practice and build that attention control and realize that there are a few daily habits that you can start to bring in, you realize you can get back in control of your life, which feels so good when you feel out of control a lot, and and that's what we're pointing at.
• 22:19
  Declan Scott: These are learnable skills because performance comes down to your capability plus behavior, and your behavior brings out the best or the worst of your capability.
• 22:29
  Declan Scott: I did a keynote on this for CAW a couple of years ago in New York, and it was that was the title of it Leadership Performance is Capability Plus Behavior, and it's important that we understand our behaviors every day affects that.
• 22:43
  Sinead Donovan: Yeah.
• 22:44
  Sinead Donovan: There is there's so there's so much there, and actually, one of the biggest takeaways I did take from the first podcast you did, and and and the uh learning interventions or teaching interventions that are up on the well-being hub of charge counties worldwide is this monotasking um uh I was gonna say phenomenon, but it's not, it's it's a behavior.
• 23:05
  Sinead Donovan: Because we have been it's been it's been built into us that multitasking is the best way to be productive.
• 23:12
  Sinead Donovan: And you know, there's the old adage women can multitask and men can't, and and and all that.
• 23:16
  Sinead Donovan: But I'm gonna stop that now because saying that and kind of championing multitasking, because I really do believe and and I can see there's something in that you know to monotask and perform well.
• 23:28
  Sinead Donovan: And where I also see it, and I'd be really keen to hear your views on this, is kind of the um the convergence of sport and business.
• 23:36
  Sinead Donovan: Because I've just read a uh a fabulous sports book by one of our Irish professional rugby players here, and he talks about the flow state and how get into the flow state, but you can only be in that flow state for a certain period of the match, and and how they can maybe try and best get into the flow state at the right stage.
• 23:53
  Sinead Donovan: But you mentioned it there, Brad, about the flow state for life or for business.
• 23:58
  Sinead Donovan: So you but you can only get into that flow state if you're effectively monotasking and focusing on one task.
• 24:05
  Sinead Donovan: Is that right?
• 24:06
  Brad Hook: Absolutely.
• 24:07
  Brad Hook: There are some clear criteria that can help you cultivate your flow state.
• 24:12
  Brad Hook: First and foremost is a clear goal for the task at hand.
• 24:16
  Brad Hook: If I'm already fragmented and my attention is being captured by little notifications and distractions and calendar invitations and emails and so forth, I won't even create the conditions for flow.
• 24:30
  Brad Hook: So, first is a clear goal.
• 24:31
  Brad Hook: Second is skills to match the challenge.
• 24:33
  Brad Hook: Too many skills and I get bored with this particular task.
• 24:38
  Brad Hook: Too few skills and I'll probably get anxious.
• 24:41
  Brad Hook: You want the right amount of time.
• 24:44
  Brad Hook: So 90 minutes turns out to be about the maximum for most people, which is why you see most football matches, rugby matches are 90 minutes with a very strategic break in the middle.
• 24:56
  Brad Hook: Tennis players who sustain flow for longer have lots of micro breaks through the game.
• 25:02
  Brad Hook: What can we learn from that?
• 25:04
  Brad Hook: And we want to minimize distractions from our environment.
• 25:07
  Brad Hook: So that might require putting the telephone on airplane mode, actually just turning off Outlook notifications or Teams chat notifications for that hour or 45 minutes or 90 minutes if you're brave, and then really just going for it.
• 25:23
  Brad Hook: So there are criteria, and flow is an a performance accelerant.
• 25:28
  Brad Hook: If you think about it, McKinsey research suggested inflow were 500% more productive.
• 25:33
  Brad Hook: A team inflow doubles their productivity, but it's not just about productivity, it's intrinsically rewarding.
• 25:39
  Brad Hook: It feels great.
• 25:40
  Brad Hook: If you've ever had one of those afternoons where you finish the task, you lose track of time, you feel good afterwards, you feel energized, a sense of momentum, you are in flow state.
• 25:50
  Brad Hook: And it doesn't have to happen just through urgency or by chance.
• 25:54
  Brad Hook: We can create pockets of time over the course of the week.
• 25:58
  Brad Hook: I often recommend start with Friday flow, 11 a.m.
• 26:01
  Brad Hook: So you've checked your emails, you're not going to break all of your habits immediately, but between 11 a.m.
• 26:06
  Brad Hook: and lunchtime, create your flow zone for you and your team and ask them to work on their most important, not urgent tasks.
• 26:14
  Brad Hook: Companies like Google have proven that by enabling flow, you get some incredible inventions.
• 26:20
  Brad Hook: In fact, uh Google Maps and Gmail were invented by people at Google working on their passion project on a Friday.
• 26:28
  Brad Hook: So what could you achieve by creating these rhythms?
• 26:31
  Brad Hook: And then perhaps it becomes flow zone daily.
• 26:34
  Brad Hook: And it's during peak alertness, perhaps between 9 and 10 a.m.
• 26:38
  Brad Hook: It can create huge momentum within an organization, but it again, leaders need to model this behavior, not just tell people to do it.
• 27:58
  Declan Scott: That's right, particularly, you know, we keep referencing the younger generation, and I know that's probably an age where we start to develop some of those habits that we carry through our life, and and with good reasons, uh, you know, it changes as we get older.
• 28:12
  Declan Scott: Quality, quantity, you know, regularity, timing, uh, is all really important, particularly around rhythm.
• 28:19
  Declan Scott: We talked about rhythm earlier, so sleep is one of the key factors.
• 28:23
  Declan Scott: We, you know, here in the United States, we uh we changed our clocks last week.
• 28:27
  Declan Scott: It's it has a huge impact on people, you know, even to the point that there's an increase in cardiovascular incidences and it it results in more strokes.
• 28:37
  Declan Scott: And you know, a very practical Irish example here, you know, in in Europe um when they're milking cows, they start a month beforehand, adjusting the timing of milking by two minutes a day so that the cows aren't literally dry when the clocks change.
• 28:52
  Declan Scott: And so everything is in rhythm.
• 28:55
  Declan Scott: And so if we can align our rhythm, you know, we've all we're all different chronotypes, so it's not that there's one perfect example that you're meant to be in bed by 10 and up by six.
• 29:04
  Declan Scott: Aim for 78 hours is great.
• 29:07
  Declan Scott: But what I realized with all the the science backing and Matthew Walker's work and everybody else, I was I was noticing in myself just recently fragmented sleep, and it was not within my control, which again is a part of the challenge.
• 29:21
  Declan Scott: We don't accept that we're not sleeping well or we're tracking in it and we're waking up being being obsessed now with with sleep, and we're we're able to measure it now with the the wearable devices like never before.
• 29:33
  Declan Scott: So I think we're now aware of things like the impact of coffee or alcohol and and the effect of even um you know working late at night.
• 29:42
  Declan Scott: All of this is very measurable now, but what I noticed of late is my own sleep was affected by by sleep apnea.
• 29:49
  Declan Scott: So, you know, I went to to the dentist to get it checked out and did a sleep test, realized that my tongue wasn't sitting in my mouth properly overnight, so it was waking me 15 times an hour.
• 29:59
  Declan Scott: And I was wondering why I was waking up tired, even though I was endeavoring to follow all the guidelines.
• 30:05
  Declan Scott: So I really encourage people to go get it checked out.
• 30:08
  Declan Scott: We've all got, you know, we're all got different factors going on.
• 30:12
  Declan Scott: But sleep is one of the biggest contributors to energy.
• 30:16
  Declan Scott: You know, you can you can manage a lot more when you've had a good night's sleep.
• 30:20
  Declan Scott: It's one of the impacts, particularly on leadership, the perception of leadership, sleep is a major factor where people can sense, you know, if a leader is, if there's even more confidence in leaders that have slept well.
• 30:34
  Declan Scott: And it's interesting that many leaders um, you know, are supporting, you know, we don't need sleep and uh sleep when I'm dead type thing.
• 30:41
  Declan Scott: But it's uh I think the message is getting changed with with that book and with uh Matthew Walker's podcast as well, and a lot of other uh people talking about this subject is a huge, huge area.
• 30:55
  Sinead Donovan: So so the simple answer is what we need to do to get to uh ensure we get more sleep is just be sensible and listen to the facts and listen to the science and actually make sure we build in the time to get that sleep.
• 31:07
  Sinead Donovan: Um Brad, can I ask that you leave us with an encouraging message, with a positive message, with maybe some you know, some of your a go-to tip to help us uh score high in the resilience uh frame that you you mentioned um earlier?
• 31:27
  Sinead Donovan: Just the best tip that you could possibly give us.
• 31:31
  Brad Hook: I think that presence is such an underrated skill, and presence is an interesting phenomenon.
• 31:37
  Brad Hook: It's being open to the world.
• 31:40
  Brad Hook: How much of our time do we spend fully engaged, often juggling, switching between lots of tasks in that zone of, you know, perhaps we're nudging into chronic stress?
• 31:52
  Brad Hook: We're certainly in that peak zone in terms of our physiology and how it's handling the challenges of our of our days and weeks and months.
• 32:00
  Brad Hook: Can we cultivate some opportunities for calm presence, stepping back from the noise, taking a wide angle view of what's going on in our environment, noticing others, if you're a leader, actually noticing how people are doing, activating your emotional intelligence to notice those subtle cues of fatigue and anxiety and worry, and just being there for others, being open to what may unravel in your environment.
• 32:30
  Brad Hook: It's it's such a powerful skill, and it's been talked about for many, many years, you know, taking the balcony view, uh reflective inquiry, just asking yourself what's the most important thing to focus on right now?
• 32:42
  Brad Hook: And it can make a huge difference.
• 32:43
  Brad Hook: Those intentional pauses, whether you use a breathing exercise or whether you use some time in nature, whatever works for you, but stop, disconnect from the noise, take a wide angle view and ask what's the most important thing to do right now?
• 32:59
  Sinead Donovan: Superb, superb advice to professionals, to parents, to employers, to everyone.
• 33:04
  Sinead Donovan: Um, and thank you very much for that.
• 33:06
  Sinead Donovan: Um, Brad and Decclan, I look forward hugely to the next report, to the next global report, um, which I know is launching very soon, and there's some interesting um findings coming out of it.
• 33:17
  Sinead Donovan: And um for charter accountants members, please look out for the survey that will be launched in or the the repeat survey that will be launched in Q1 of 2026, because it is really important that we try and track um this resilience um uh scoring for the profession.
• 33:35
  Sinead Donovan: So, gentlemen, thank you so much.
• 33:37
  Sinead Donovan: I know you're at opposite ends of the globe, and I'm stuck in the middle here.
• 33:40
  Sinead Donovan: So enjoy your day, enjoy your evening, enjoy your afternoon, and to everyone that has stayed tuned in, I hope you enjoyed it.
• 33:48
  Sinead Donovan: There is some fascinating learnings here, and so much more to come when the report comes out.
• 33:55
  Sinead Donovan: Goodbye and good day.