Latest / Human Equilibrium: Wise Leadership in the Age of AI / How to Use AI Without Outsourcing Your Thinking – with Cole Hoover
Transcript
- speaker-0: It's more about like always having your aperture open for new things. Like there there's like a certain humility, there's a certain curiosity. That posture has been the thing that not only have that I've admired the most, but it seemed to be the thing that of the leaders that I've witnessed, the ones who've been the most successful in the really like holistic ways are the ones who've been the learners. We want to be able to feel like the people around us are actually paying attention. They're listening to us, they're seeing our unique needs, and they're practicing care. I think that you can still do those things with AI in your ecosystem, but I think it requires a high level of thoughtfulness to do it well. speaker-1: Welcome to the Human Equilibrium Podcast. It's a podcast about leadership at the intersection of artificial intelligence and human wisdom. I'm Dan Molly, a leadership advisor, executive coach, and facilitator. On the show, I talk with founders, people leaders, and experts in AI and transformation. Together, we explore how AI is changing leadership, organizations, and the experience of being human. In these conversations, we step beneath the hype. And the Doom to explore what leaders are really experiencing with AI and how we can leverage increasingly powerful technology while strengthening the human leadership capacities needed to guide it wisely. This is Human Equilibrium. My guest today is Cole Hoover. Cole is the founder of Ponto Social Impact Consulting and co-host of the Facilitating Change podcast. Cole spent the first 10 years of his career as a social entrepreneur. Helping to build and scale teams, creating meaningful impact in the world, and has spent the last decade designing and leading learning communities, fellowships, and multi-stakeholder collaborations that help organizations build trust and act together at the systems level. His work spans social enterprise education, economic mobility and microfinance, civic engagement, and the responsible integration of AI into mission-driven work. Welcome Cole. speaker-0: Thanks so much, Dan. So happy to be here. speaker-1: Glad to have you. So let's start out. I'd love to hear what's a short story of how you came to do the work you're doing today? speaker-0: Yeah. You know, it's in a way, it's as simple as the bio you just read. ⁓ and I think at a little bit of a deeper level it was I had ⁓ a lot of amazing opportunities ⁓ early in my career to be a part of teams taking on really, really ambitious things, like folks who were entrepreneurs and technologists and organizers, and I really just fell in love with social entrepreneurship, the possibility of it, the The kind of ⁓ creative potential of building these organizations to try to grapple with some extremely difficult challenges. And I think through that period, butting up against these challenges over and over again from all these angles, I started ⁓ seeking out mentors, seeking out fellowship programs, seeking out support. And in the process of getting what I needed to really thrive or even just to get by as a social entrepreneur, I very much fell in love with the container of these kind of communities. And so I was drawn to figure out what it would take. ⁓ kind of I've always been ⁓ a learner, kind of a student of how other people learn, and someone who's been fascinated by kind of multidisciplinary, cross-sector groups of people just because there's so much to learn in that difference. And so I I was really drawn to figuring out like what is it to design an impactful space, a a community where leaders can come together and build relationships, ⁓ build the capacity that they need, and together understand the networks and the systems that they're actually trying to change and impact. So ⁓ that was a bit of my journey. I I first was kind of getting my own needs met and then I was very much falling in love with the opportunity to bring people together for this kind of work. speaker-1: And what was one of those early experiences that made you realize this work is so important? Like what made you think, wow, I wanna go in and dedicate my life to doing this kind of work in the world? speaker-0: Yeah. You know, I I I think that there's all kinds of positives out there. There's like all kinds of things that I was like moving towards. and I also think that it was partially in reaction to the fact that there's not a lot of great adult learning communities out there. I think there's like a really, really traditional path where people, you know, in the early years of their life, they go through like a very prescriptive, very specific learning journey. And regardless of when you get off that journey to go to go into work, you are often not doing much ongoing learning. You're you're not being in that space of curiosity with others. And so I think that I just fell in love with ⁓ you know, the the container of a fellowship, the container of a community of practice where Leaders who maybe always had to put on a brave face out in the world and and in some cases give a bit of a sanitized version of what was actually happening could show up more authentically. I think that honestly one of the things that drew me the most to it was people building the relational infrastructure, building the connective tissue to feel vulnerable enough to ask for help. And I saw like all the amazingly powerful things that happen when people ask for help and really the the inspiration that comes from sometimes like really unexpected places that would then ripple out in the world where a leader would learn something from someone maybe in a completely different sector, but that had a bit of a seed of wisdom for their own problems, for their own sector, for their own things that they're working with. And so ⁓ yeah, that that kind of like virtuous cycle was something that I that I really, really was drawn to. speaker-1: Hmm. Yeah, I love that. And I think you're starting to articulate a bit of your perspective around leadership and what effective leadership looks like. Can you share a little bit more about role models, influences, anything that really helped you to crystallize the kind of leadership that you wanted to take a stand for and support in the world? speaker-0: Yeah, you know, my the leaders I have most respected in my career, either working directly with them, ⁓ you know, as as someone reporting to them on a team, or ⁓ a leader that I've been either mentoring or guiding through a learning journey, or just leaders that have been peers in a community, the ones that I most admire, this will not come as a surprise to you, are are the people who are the learners. Like they're the ones who are out there, they're open. they're they're kind of falling in love with the problem and and and saying that not in a way that they're in any way condoning the problem or that that the problem itself is something that they like, but they are they're dedicating themselves to like constantly evolving and learning alongside with it. ⁓ and to me, like the learner posture is not just about this either like accumulation of energy, ⁓ this this accumulation of expertise or kind of this the stacking of knowledge. speaker-1: Hmm. So I'm curious now to hear a little bit about your experience in using AI and your work ⁓ with clients, etcetera. How are you using AI today? speaker-0: ⁓ you know, it it it varies. I think it's something that a lot of a lot of organizations obviously are grappling with, both kinda how they how they want to use it, how they don't want to use it. ⁓ you know, I like like you I know ⁓ have spent some time grappling with it, both thinking about it, writing about it, but also being in the practice of it. And so There are absolutely some specific examples, ⁓ some kind of products or services or tools that like I've seen clients adopt, I've I've supported clients in adopting, and we can absolutely go into any of those. But more than anything, the thing that I'm seeing, at least by the most thoughtful organizations and leaders that I'm working with, are people really using it as an opportunity to let's see, I'd I'd say almost like reset and check in around the kind of organization that they want to have. Like they're the ones who are who are saying, you know, and so I yeah, I've I've been I've been witnessing a lot of really, really thoughtful conversations. ⁓ I know that there's there's a lot of folks out there who are who are not approaching this thoughtfully and and I I really worry about that. ⁓ but I think the majority of the work that I've been doing has just been kind of holding space and if people are willing to move forward, ⁓ helping them to design some experiments that they can try within their work that's like still kind of sitting with their values, still sitting with their guidelines for how they want to be showing up in their work. speaker-1: Yeah, it's interesting because I think with AI you sort of put a magnifying glass on whatever's already present. So if there's dysfunction, it's like more dysfunction, right? If there's if there's some really good practices in place, you can really amplify the value there. Totally. And yeah, I think I'm curious, like, in particular from your perspective, as you talk about the leader as the learner and how that's so critically important, how do you see that being impacted by AI? For better or for worse, like are you noticing that leaders are struggling to maintain the stance and posture of learner in the face of increasingly powerful technology? And are you seeing them leverage it effectively? speaker-0: Yeah, ⁓ such a good question. And I do not have a satisfying answer, but but I will say ⁓ I I have been seeing some leaders use it as a way to kind of go deeper on some questions. a thing that I've been doing a lot of reflection on this lately. I'm actually writing a series about kind of AI and impact networks, ⁓ with my friend and collaborator David Ehrlichman right now. And we've been we've been grappling a lot with, you know, as we introduce AI into networks, what are the ways that it's helping us learn? What are the ways that it's helping us to enhance kind of the beauty of the human work that we're doing? And what are the areas that it can kind of become ⁓ Like a little bit of something that brings out maybe some of our less intentional tendencies and kind of gets us into just automating things that we shouldn't be automating. And so the things that I've seen that are promising are people using AI as a reflective partner. One thing that's come up in our writing is, you know, we we've tried our best to be really, really discerning about all of the hazards. ⁓ you know, the environmental, the social, the the legal ethical, ⁓ but also just the things that AI can do to a team ⁓ if people aren't being very thoughtful about how it's being implemented. But on the other hand, I think it's actually really, really helpful to be honest about kind of the other side, the completely non-AI enhanced or AI-enabled workforce. Like Prior to AI, we had a lot of conversations about people being extremely disengaged in their work. We had, you know, we see the reality of people phoning it in. We see the people of showing up to a meeting having not read the notes that they were supposed to do before. These tendencies, like you're saying, can be absolutely exacerbated with AI. But we've also been finding that there's some ways, if your organization can be thoughtful and honest about the things that AI can do to actually enhance. humans' abilities to show up with all their brilliance, you know, d there can be some positives. And so again, the the leaders that I've seen using AI have been using it as a reflective partner. They've been using it as a way to kind of standardize everyone's process for preparing for a meeting, for honoring the time of their other their other colleagues. ⁓ People are busy. Like we we try to do so much. And so I think there's also a hazard that can come up with AI where Just because you can do so much more doesn't mean that you should. ⁓ and it can get people into these loops of not only overwork, but biting off more than they can chew and more than they can process. So again, there there's lots of really fascinating, beautiful uses for AI in all different kinds of realms. But the one that I've been finding maybe the most compelling and the one that feels the most human-sized. is using it to ask really beautiful questions, using it to reflect a little bit deeper about the work you're doing yourself and with others. speaker-1: Yeah, I find this this realm really interesting because I think what we're starting to see is people leaning on Claude or on OpenAI, you know, Chat GPT, to be a coach or even a therapist, certainly to be a thought partner. Where do you see the are there limits to the benefit and are there any risk factors from your perspective in engaging in that way? speaker-0: Yeah. I I think absolutely, like, you know, there's been so much study about the I know that there's been some upgrades to models, but I I I don't think there's anyone out there who would say that the sycophancy problem of AI has been solved. We still have models that are going to just kind of agree. with what you are saying or doing. There can be definitely like a delusion factor that can be generated. There's absolutely prompts that you can use. You can you can build into you can build in files that your ⁓ AI agent, your LLM are referencing that can help it to kind of dial back that sycophancy or that agreeing with everything that you're saying, but but the risk is definitely there. But I think even Even if you're being really diligent about it, ⁓ about that aspect of it, I think that one of the things that is most important is Even if you are using AI as a coach or AI as a reflection partner, making sure that you're doing that as a way of supplementing, not replacing the human interactions that you have in your work. ⁓ I've seen lots of really cool organizations that have actually designed AI to do the things that maybe it is harder to do or ⁓ maybe not as meaningful for humans to do. in order to free up the space and the energy to actually allow people to spend more time connecting, more time doing the things that are actually kind of bolstering human wisdom and human connection. So to to try to more concisely answer your question, like I think there's absolutely a risk there. And to me, the people who have most addressed it are the ones who've created processes where AI is a seasoning. It's not the main dish. It's Human connection is the thing that is centered and still supported. But like I'd given in the example of the person who in the past maybe wasn't preparing for their meeting and not honoring other people's time, there's a possibility for AI to really support in on a time crunch team to give people the ability to prepare a little bit better. ⁓ and so yeah, all all different kinds of ways that people can approach this, but I think making sure that there's a balance is is key. speaker-1: Yeah, like that. And I think you bring up a really important point, which is the increasing pace of acceleration, which doesn't feel like it's episodic. It doesn't feel like there's going to be an end. It feels almost like it's endemic and that we're entering into a new permanent reality. And we don't I don't know, you know, I don't think anybody knows. ⁓ I'm sitting in the question, but it certainly feels different, particularly in the past maybe two years or so. And I wonder in the face of that acceleration, what are the most important things to stay connected to as a leader that if you lose track of, could ultimately lead you to be maybe lost at sea in that acceleration? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, great great is a great question and I don't think one we're gonna answer today. And I'm really excited to kinda keep tuning into to this work that you're putting out in the world to just see how pe how people are over time addressing that. You know, I I think w we we could definitely talk about some of the some of the bigger risk factors that I think could arise and maybe that'll come up in our conversation, but ⁓ I think I I I really more so go back to the leaders that I've seen be the most successful about this are the ones who are engaging with it directly. And and that can look like a lot of different things. I think it needs to it needs to hit a couple different ⁓ couple different registers for it to really, really be resonant. And I so I think the first one is leaders need to be both up to date. And curious and learning about the possibilities. I think they need to be with their teams, having honest conversations around from their perspective, not someone else's, like you can absolutely listen to experts, but I think it's more important for you and your team and your managers and whoever in your organization is making decisions to have a really, really values-based conversation about. when you want to use AI, when you don't want to use AI, why you want to use AI, why you don't want to use AI, and and make it this dynamic conversation. It's not to say that you'll come to something and decide on it and it will be fixed. Like as you'd kind of alluded to Dan, like these time times are changing and things are going very quickly. And so a decision you make today might not be valid in two months. And so That's why more than ever is it important to have those habits for conversation, for feedback, for connecting about these things. So you all build the skills to actually continue to engage with these ideas. And one hazard I've seen, and probably the place that I've witnessed the most like both like confusion and kind of like hand-wringing around AI use in a company, are the ones where there's a lack of honesty about it. Like the l like there's been studies ⁓ about kind of even when people perceive something as AI generated, if there's not a disclosure, or even sometimes when there is a disclosure, people trust it less. And not only do they trust that artifact less, they trust the person who who created or, you know, ⁓ was a part of that artifact to getting to you. And the the cultures that I've seen that can really, really thrive in this uncertain moment are the ones who say, you know what? We we want you to experiment with AI. You're not gonna be penalized for doing that. We want you to be honest about the ways you're using it, when you're using it. We want you to use your ⁓ kind of use of AI as a learning experience. We want you to continue to practice the critical capacities, critical thinking, writing, reading, all these beautiful things that make you human and keep you sharp. Like The places that I've seen struggle the most with this are the ones where it's actually not very clear, or rather, that's not true. It is clear. Everyone knows who's using AI, but they're not talking about it openly. And it makes this really kind of awkward liminal space where there can't be any learning about it because people feel like if they admit to using AI, they're gonna be g they're gonna get in trouble or they're gonna they're gonna be looked down upon. ⁓ and if that's the case. There isn't really the space to have the harder conversations around, hey, I was looking for your critical thinking and you sent me back a 10 page AI slop dump. Like this is not helping us at all. Like if it's part of your process to like get this thing as an initial aspect of your thinking, cool. But like I'm looking for your critical thinking, not not AIs. And so creating a culture for that I think is extremely important. speaker-1: Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying. And I know that it's a very open question to be living into, not one that has some kind of closed resolution right now. but I appreciate hearing your thoughts. And I think one of the key questions I always sit with is what do we need to sort of protect? Like what do we need to invest in? ⁓ s as we go through this acceleration, as we continue to adopt the technology and as it becomes more and more powerful, what are the things that we need to invest in and where are we going to deliberately choose not to use AI? Yeah. And so that's a question I have for you is are there any places in your work where you've made that choice either to fully not use AI for a certain kind of activity or to use it a lot less maybe than you could have? speaker-0: Yeah, totally. yeah, it's it's funny. I was I was given a guest lecture at a friend's ⁓ class at the University of Washington the other day, and one of the questions that they were asking all of the speakers who came in to talk to this entrepreneurship class, these really amazing, brilliant students, was what's a what's a tool or process that you're using right now? And I I I don't remember exactly if it was to be more productive or whatever, but you know, the they would it was framed as like, what's something that's helping you do your work better? And my answer, ⁓ and it's been interesting hearing students follow up with me after, really struck a chord, which was writing. Like I have been doing a lot of writing. And it is the thing that I am not willing to give to AI. ⁓ or give to AI is a bad way to say it. It's something I'm not willing to Let AI do for me because it just helps me to think so much better. ⁓ and so the thing that I am never using AI for is a first draft. Like that that blank page, like struggling with the blank page. Like it sucks, it's uncomfortable, it's not fun. I am not naturally a gifted writer. I I I have to struggle through it. And I think that I have ⁓ I've benefited greatly by being around other people who are. really brilliant writers, but I don't think I would be able to internalize any of their lessons if I was showing up with this perfectly polished draft. I think that, you know, although I'm not a great writer, I have spent a lot of time developing skills as a critical thinker. And it would be a huge ⁓ A huge missed opportunity for me to actually use my critical thinking skills if I was outsourcing that writing, which is such a beautiful way to ar to articulate it. speaker-1: Yeah, I really like that example. And I think you bring up another important point here, which is the tension of doing something that you don't feel particularly great at, but that you know you need to invest in and engage in because the journey matters as much as the destination. In fact, you're not gonna get where you wanna go unless you've done that work to sit with the tension and work through it. And I think that's where I feel like one of the things AI can do often inadvertently, is remove the tension. to the point where it becomes harder for us as leaders to want to engage with that tension because hey AI can just do it for you. ⁓ but I think you know writing is such a great example because not only does it polish the writing, it also flattens it in my experience. And I've done a lot of writing with AI. Yep. And I've learned along the way that what comes out when I work directly with AI from the start. of a writing process. It's it feels flat, it feels generic. It doesn't feel alive with the journey of my experience of working through what I'm talking about. And I think we see this with some of the data around how students can write a paper and not even remember a single sentence from it, right? Because it was AI that wrote it and they didn't have to actually work through the thinking. And s with without having to grapple with the thinking and what I'm sort of saying is the tension of it, then you don't actually learn. And so this goes back to your position of leaders as learners where I think this presents a challenge. And I'll just give one more little example and then I want to hear your your kind of thoughts on this. an example of where I think AI can be misapplied. ⁓ we have to be thoughtful about it. I heard from a friend about how somebody lost a loved one in in the workplace. ⁓ sorry, somebody at work lost a loved one and their manager sent an AI like speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I'm sorry for your loss note. And and it was like, I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope you know, s the generic flattened response. And you can imagine that doesn't land as care, right, from your manager. That lands as, ⁓ you didn't even have time to even write to me. So this is where they're diminishing returns, right? Things like performance reviews and feedback and genuine moments of human care and communication. the building blocks of psychological safety, which I think research has shown for a while now has been one of the core elements of high functioning teams. Now, more than ever, I think we have to invest in using AI in wise ways so that we don't fall victim to over outsourcing ⁓ in these ways that actually require the human empathy, the human touch, the human care to come through. So I'd be curious about your thoughts on that. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, that's hard. And I and yeah, I could see how that would land so poorly. It it also makes me wonder, you know, for instance, how different is what that kind of incense or as as we're probably all reacting and kind of r cringing at that boss and what they did, like, how different is that than giving someone a Hallmark card with something that's already written on there? Like, I I I bring that up j just 'cause I'm curious and I And I think I'm just thinking over time, like, is part of the AI writing and us perceiving it, is it because we're not yet used to this and and in five years' time we'll see it as more normal? Is it because we're like, I don't think anyone outside of some, you know, beautiful ⁓ bespoke card writers were probably worried about Hallmark cards stealing their jobs and completely altering the economy? But like I I I bring this I bring this up to say like we're in early days with how we think about these tools. and I think that we're also at a time where there's a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of ways that we are getting overly technologized, not just with AI, but with so many other things that I think people are people are craving the more human, like people I think I think generations do this all the time. They react against the current technology by wanting to go more analog, ⁓ whether it's a handwritten note or a Walkman or or whatever. Like I I say all this to say I think that we're probably in a period where the way we're thinking about these things will evolve over time. The things that make us cringe now will probably change, and I think to your more important deeper point speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Very well said. Yeah, so what are you noticing about AI and leadership that you don't think we're talking about enough yet? Like out in society, in the workplace, et cetera? speaker-0: Hmm, yeah, really good question. you know, I not not to be redundant, but I I I think I go back to the point I shared earlier, which is I don't think that enough leaders like I like I think leaders are w whether they're a technologist or not, they're being asked to say, What's your AI strategy? Whether it's related to your data, to your security, to your to your product, your to your to your ⁓ your product development, the way you're seeking, ⁓ How to manage your CRM. We're asking these really technical questions, but we're not asking leaders to hold space around what does AI and AI's ability to do all these things mean for the people working within the company. Like even the people I see at kind of gigantic tech companies that have a mandate for AI usage, it's not typically framed in the sense of. use AI to do this specific thing better. Like there's absolutely some brilliant companies out there that are doing this, but it's more just like use a bunch of AI. Like and that sounds a little wild, but it's true. And I think with with how expensive a lot of the models are getting and how we're getting to a new stage of kind of the investment cycle in AI, I think that's going to change. But to me, the thing that we're missing from a leadership perspective is the leaders who can say, hey, there's this new thing. It is changing so many things. And there's other things that it is not changing. I still want you to be able to critically think. I still want you to be able to write. I still want you to be able to offer your perspective. and this is how we as a company are going to think about this. And I want you to be able to be honest ⁓ about when you're using AI, when you're not using AI. ⁓ I don't think I don't think leaders are feeling very equipped for this, and and I'm hoping that. conversations that you're making space for can be a space for leaders to do that because I don't think there's enough of these really beautiful conversations out here, which was why I was energized to come and get to chat with you about this. speaker-1: Hmm. Thanks, yeah. I think there's a lot of pressure on organizations, kind of all the way down the food chain of investment through to execution, to use these models and to become more efficient and to streamline and automate everything you possibly can. Yep. And on the one hand, that's that's amazing. You know, there are organizations that can operate with a handful of people that would have taken fifty, right? Two years ago, four years ago. So there are massive improvements that are possible. And on the other hand, there's a way in which it feels like it's created a bit of a transactional environment ⁓ in terms of some of the way that organizations are relating down that food chain. ⁓ where it can sound a little bit like, hey, we want to automate your job or we want to automate half of your team. Help us do that. and there isn't necessarily the question of how does that impact the way you see your role or your identity in the organization? and I think importantly, here there's a lot of crunch on managers right now. Like there's a lot of pressure that moves down that food chain and kind of lands there. and I'm also seeing that there hasn't really been a clearly articulated leadership stance around AI, oftentimes in organizations. So you spoke this. spoke about this a little bit earlier. but to be specific, I don't know that a lot of leaders are saying, here's how I'm orienting toward AI, here are the bounded use cases that we're gonna prioritize, here's the way we're gonna measure ROI, here are the ways that we're going to, you know, decide what to invest in and what to cut from our experimentation. ⁓ here's what that means for the the organization of our teams and the future of your work. I think there's so many layers here that touch they go deeper than just operations and technology and they get straight into identity and you know, what exactly is the work that I'm doing and is it still valuable? And so I think what I've seen and noticed is there is some resistance when you get further down that food chain toward the the domain of just executing, getting work done. The resistance has tended to be, well, if I just if I prove that my role can be automated, then then what? You know. Yeah. So I guess I'm just curious to hear from you what your thoughts are in terms of how leaders can approach that more skillfully. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a really beautiful diagnosis. And I I think you're absolutely right. And there's so many there's so many factors in that. And ki kinda like to my example I'd said where way before AI, we had disengaged workers. Way before we had AI, we had people who were showing up not reading the notes. Way before we had AI, we had overworked people who didn't feel like they mattered because their companies didn't create a culture of mattering. I'm a I'm a huge fan of Zach Mercurio who's done a lot of research and and published a a beautiful book on the power of mattering and kind of what it what it takes to create workforces where people actually feel like their contributions are seen and valued and celebrated. And so I think part of what you're describing is regardless of AI or not, like we need to create cultures of mattering. We need to create Places where people feel like their contribution is actually something that is meaningful. It's celebrated. ⁓ there's there's a unique way that they are contributing and adding value. ⁓ but we can only do that when that is going to be authentically reflected in the business plan, in the organizational chart. And so I think that. One thing that comes up, and there's there's been all kinds of like writing and critique about this, is ⁓ it's not AI that is making all these people lose their jobs. It is companies that have a certain ethos, a certain value set, a certain business and investment structure, which is we're going to maximize value for certain group of shareholders regardless. Like we don't really care about our employees at the end of the day. ⁓ and AI has just been a really convenient scapegoat for that. Like, yes, there have been some companies where or or some very specific industries where AI has truly changed the game. But from my vantage point, and I am in a relationship with people all over the world in a variety of sectors, you know, in the Fortune 100s and all, like, there there's there's a bit more of a cynicism, which is cutting these jobs just makes the company more money. It's not really about AI. speaker-1: Hmm. That's interesting. Cause then let's let's take the position I know several leaders I've worked with, they absolutely love the prospect of AI because they get to be closer to the decisions that are so important to them that otherwise they'd have to kind of hand over to people that don't fully share their vision, that don't fully understand what they want. And so I think like one example was I worked with CEO who, you know, we had hired a head of product, they didn't last very long. 'Cause the CEO actually wanted to be the head of product. And with AI right. So he just you know, he could use AI to then basically take over that function. Now, pros and cons, I'm not recommending it, but I do think that there's something to be said for the increase in control. When you're a founder, when you're a CEO, when you're a leader, like who doesn't want to feel like you have more say over the critical decisions around the direction of your organization? And it is vulnerable to some degree, it is a risk to some degree to be handing that over. speaker-0: Yeah yeah yeah. speaker-1: To a team, regardless of how capable that team is. Now, I think that's where it's so important to be building a team that you truly can rely on and building the kind of bonds and relationships where you can do work that feels very aligned, right? And aligned with your vision. ⁓ but I'm curious just to hear your thoughts on that tension, because as a founder or a leader, it does bring you closer to con having control over the direction of your organization. It does take away some of the vulnerability and risk of having to rely on. others. ⁓ but also it it gets in the way of building a team of critical thinkers who can bring their collective wisdom to bear on the problems that your organization is is trying to solve. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, great question and and and a really beautiful tension to illustrate. And I think that kind of what you're speaking to is one of the things that AI is really wonderful for, and and that is experimentation and prototyping. Like it is hard to start something new. It is hard to be an entrepreneur. And there aren't many places on Earth, you know, even the US, which is allegedly this like total ⁓ kind of Haven entrepreneurs, like it's really hard to be an entrepreneur. It is a huge risk, personally, professionally, to try to do something new, try to disrupt something. And so can this be an amazing way for these founders who are resource strapped, time strapped, maybe they're pre being able to create the stability of building a team to actually put some prototypes out in the world? Like, what a what a gift. Like, what an amazing thing. And I think that. it can be absolutely invaluable for that. And and maybe even as you're as you're growing and and you're not yet ready to hire the person to be in that product role and and it it kind of sir can serve as an interim. Like I think that's all exciting and and really, really I could see some ways that that could accelerate our ability to be more entrepreneurial and be more disruptive when it comes to solving some of the biggest problems out in the world. To the other aspect of it, I think you're totally right. There there is a trade-off, and that trade-off very much can be not finding the right team, not building a team, and kind of having that ongoing capacity, like having that wisdom among the people working there, having that trust, having that kind of relational infrastructure in place, ⁓ which I I think is extremely valuable and you know. regardless of what you're doing as a company, you're likely doing what you're doing in service of people in some way or another, offering a product to people, offering people a service. And having humans on your leadership team who spend their lives living as humans, can empathize with humans, can can really, really like deeply understand the problems that we're all facing, I think is invaluable. AI can absolutely assist in that, but I think there is a hazard of not building the capacity of the team that you want to have for the long term. speaker-1: So we've zoomed way out and I really appreciate the conversation we've had, but I want to bring it back home now to you and your journey as a leader. So as as the technology becomes more powerful, how are you thinking about your role and responsibility as a leader? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think it's I think it's something ⁓ I feel like I have been experimenting with AI tools for yeah, for several years. I feel really lucky I got to you know, people around me were were reading, ⁓ thinking about these things a bit before they became super mainstream and So I I feel like I've had a lot of time to think about and experiment with these things. And I've kind of done that like full circle meme where I'm back to how I thought about it at the beginning. And that is I only really feel good doing this with things that I have expertise in. Like, and not only does it allow me to deepen my understanding, but I can feel really comfortable about the things that I'm outputting. And the ways that ⁓ I can understand both the intended and unintended consequences of AI being introduced into a system that I'm working in. So a great example of that is, you know, I've been an entrepreneur, I've been a learning designer, I've I've helped to lead impact networks. ⁓ but the thing that I've really gotten my 10,000 hours in is probably facilitation. and for me. at this point, like figuring out what are the ways that whether it's agentic AI or whether it's a chat bot or whether it is ⁓ querying and anal analytics that are allowing us to better understand the community that we're working in so we can actually show up and be more prepared to interact and design things for these people. Like that's that's where I'm that's where I'm finding the most kind of meaningful progression. ⁓ and I think that I've I've gotten even more ⁓ I'd say boundried about like AI can be an amazing editing partner. Like writing something and then having AI not directly change it for you, but read it and make suggestions for better readability, for better comprehensibility, like I I love those. But like as I'd said earlier, writing is something that I'm really trying to protect. ⁓ so So there's a lot of ways and I'm sure I'll have a different answer for you in a month than I do right now. But yeah, I I think I just go back to people are busy, they're competing for that we're competing for their attention. There's so much information out there and so can I use AI tools to kind of help sense make Help create more opportunities for reflection and connection around the people that I'm working with in this time of great overwhelm. speaker-1: I think one thing that I've noticed is with all the AI slop, especially when it comes to content and writing, ⁓ it kind of starts to feel like it fades into the background a little bit and it's hard to it's hard to create any signal. And I think what I'm finding is really creating signal is at least the appearance of, if not the genuine existence of real human, raw authenticity. Like just in the moment, here's what I'm feeling, here's what's going on. Yeah. And I think that all the old ways of operating that relied more on polished presentations and slide decks and all the various instruments of professionalism are starting to r they're starting to fall apart because People are looking for what is real. We want to know that we're experiencing something, I think, relational, at least at this point, still relational in terms of another human is on the other side. And so this I think weaves back into the question of leadership. ⁓ and then I think as a final question, I'd really love to ask you what is the question you're sitting with right now about your identity and growth as a leader? in this AI accelerated world. speaker-0: Hmm. Great question. You know, I th I think I think to the to the first one of how can we be that human on the other side, like just to to answer that through the lens of what we've been talking about, like how could we partner with AI to make sure that we're actually spending the time to prepare for this beautiful human conversation that we get to have time for? Like we are so often rushing from thing to thing. Like again, there are things that AI is negatively impacting on, but A lot of it is the way we have structured our economic systems and the way we've structured our work culture. AI is just exacerbating it. And so are there ways to use AI to interrupt some of those patterns of just doing too much, of not having the space to process, to reflect? I think that I think that for me, the thing that I'm that I'm investing in, the thing I'm grappling with, the thing I'm struggling with is ⁓ kind of like ⁓ like it feels like there's a tuning and it feels like tuning something extremely complex and multifaceted like a piano. Like there's all these strings, there's all these interconnected pieces. ⁓ and for me it's about how can I balance the places this could truly help me to move through the things that I'm not that I'm ha I have to do, but they're not contributing to my learning or connection. So I can have the right information to actually move into those spaces for of learning and connection. doing it from an informed way where I actually have a perspective I've been able to develop. I've had the time to develop. Like so for me as a leader, it's it's being in that tuning, it's being in that discernment, it's asking a lot of questions. It's asking AI to ask me a lot of questions. And it's asking AI to recommend questions I can ask with the other people around me. Like how can how can we be in those questions together? speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it sounds like maybe one of the questions that you're inviting or sitting with is how do you continue to be a learner even as you invest in these tools? You find ways to let the tools support preparation and synthesis and analysis and allow you to be better prepared for the interpersonal moments. where you can bring your human leadership capabilities. ⁓ and how do you do all of that f again from the position of being a learner without sacrificing your critical thinking, but continuing to invest carefully and intentionally in that capacity. So that's a little bit of what I'm hearing. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, beautifully said. speaker-1: Awesome. Well hey, it's been great to connect with you. Cole Hoover, thank you for being on the show today. speaker-0: Yeah, thank you, Dan. This is a total delight. I'm so excited to tune in and hear what what comes up. speaker-1: Awesome. Take care. speaker-0: Yay, two. speaker-1: Thanks for listening to Human Equilibrium. If this conversation sparks something for you, I invite you to keep exploring with me at humanequilibrium.ai. There you can find the field guide on wise leadership in the age of AI, take the free human equilibrium assessment, and explore my work with leaders and teams to strengthen judgment, emotional clarity, and relational presence in an AI-accelerated world. Until next time, stay curious, stay human, and lead wisely.