Latest / Identity at the Center / #342 - Identity Management Day 2025 with Jeff Reich

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#342 - Identity Management Day 2025 with Jeff Reich · Identity at the Center

0:00
But I think you're seeing the beginning of what we are going
0:02
to start dealing with. And let me take that a step
0:06
further from an identity perspective.
0:08
I'm guessing many people here, or at least some of the people
0:11
listening to this or and watching this sold their DNA to
0:17
a 23andMe. I say it that way because that's
0:19
kind of what you, Yep, you know, it's kind of what happened here.
0:23
That information now that 23 me is about to be sold is going to
0:28
end up in the hands of whoever buys it.
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I'm not saying they're evil or. That 23 me or that anything bad
0:35
may happen, but I am bringing up the fact that your DNA, which is
0:39
really your true identity, you know, a component of your true
0:42
identity can now transfer hands out of your control.
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And what does that mean? And will there be a Jim McDonald
0:53
version 100 years from now because of it?
0:57
I don't think that's possible. Sorry, Jim.
1:00
No way, No way, man. You already tried to create one
1:03
with the April Fool's episode. This is identity at the center
1:14
if it has anything to do with IAM.
1:17
This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
1:23
Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
1:31
Center podcast. I'm Jeff and ask Jim.
1:33
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
1:35
Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great, man.
1:38
I just got a good chuckle listening to our AI episode
1:42
again. For those who didn't know, put
1:44
out a special episode on April 1st.
1:47
Pretty funny. The good thing is, you know,
1:50
there's all this thing about, Oh yeah, it's going to take my job.
1:54
I don't think it's going to take our podcast jobs, at least not
1:58
within the next year or two. OK, so now you're really put me
2:01
under the gun here because we're actually recording this before
2:05
that episode has gone live and before you've had a chance to
2:09
listen to the new version that I've put together.
2:11
And so, yeah, I, I like where it's headed.
2:14
I think it'll, you know, be kind of entertaining.
2:16
And it's something that I've actually been trying to do for
2:18
years, ever since this whole AI craze came about.
2:22
Obviously, it's it's quite ridiculous.
2:24
Our voices are not at all, you know, I mean, they're close, but
2:28
not like, you know, enough to be like, oh, is that really Jeff or
2:32
is that not Jeff? Or is that really Jim or not
2:34
Jim? So I made it very clear that
2:35
those are AI Jeff and AI Jim. Yeah, well, AI is at the center
2:41
as we know, we've referenced many times, but I think we're
2:44
safe for now. I mean, you're, you're right.
2:47
You did a really good job in terms of even like the last
2:50
version I heard. But I think there's still an
2:55
element like we just had some good laughs with our our guests
2:58
today. We had good laughs with our
3:00
guests every time, both on the show and getting ready to
3:04
record. I think that that just brings
3:07
them, you know, that spontaneity and you know, that camaraderie
3:12
brings an element to the show that AI just can't reproduce.
3:17
Not yet. It's very difficult to get AI to
3:19
laugh without it saying like ha ha, you know?
3:24
I just told a funny one. Right, exactly.
3:27
So anyway, it was an experiment, you know, it's a one off, but
3:30
yeah, hopefully people dug it and.
3:33
Yeah, that's it. We'll try it again next year and
3:36
maybe it'll be a little bit better, a little bit better
3:38
every year until. I mean, it has to be, right.
3:40
This is the worst it will ever be.
3:42
I hope it's just going to continue to get better.
3:44
And there are certainly tools that are rapidly expanding and
3:48
their capabilities. And it is expensive to do AI
3:52
voice stuff, so it'll probably get cheaper too.
3:55
Yeah, I mean, even with like Copilot.
3:58
So I'm part of a team at RSM, which is where we do our day
4:02
jobs, which is like, you know, experimenting with Copilot.
4:07
And a lot of the feedback has been, you know, it works great
4:10
when I upload four or five documents to analyze, but if I
4:13
give it like 70 documents, it just chokes and does nothing.
4:18
And so I kind of think that's probably more with how much
4:23
horsepower the level of license that we have because I think the
4:27
AI can handle it, right? Not well, it's very expensive.
4:31
So without turning this into AI, at the center you have what's
4:35
referred to as tokens and the context window with is basically
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how much information can you put in and words take up a certain
4:45
amount of tokens and each, you know, basically it's kind of
4:48
like the length. And I'm, I'm sure somebody out
4:49
there is like, no, you're totally wrong.
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But this is the way I understand it is you have a certain number
4:53
of tokens that you can put into the response, and then there's a
4:56
certain number of tokens that come out as part of that context
4:59
window that it will kind of be able to refer to.
5:00
So yeah, you can definitely upload too much information.
5:05
Pro tip is try to do maybe 1 document at a time, 2 documents
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at a time, something that's much smaller.
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If it's a very big document, you might need to split up that
5:12
document into different files as well.
5:15
So, yeah, it is. And again, this is, it's, it's
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the worst it will ever be right now.
5:20
It's probably going to get better, but that's why it's, and
5:24
the larger, I think that's, you know, one of the things that a
5:26
lot of these AI firms are working on is trying to make
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that context window bigger. That token, the number of tokens
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allowed, right, etcetera. And that really does relate back
5:33
to the cost it takes to to chunk through each of those things and
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and get things going. Yeah, no.
5:39
So I'm really excited. I think we should get our
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conference code information out there and then introduce our
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guests. What do you think?
5:49
Yeah. Let's talk about it.
5:50
We've got a European Identity and Cloud conference from Kummer
5:53
Coal coming up. That's in Berlin.
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That's May 6th or 9th. Jim, you and I are going to be
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there and we hope people will join us.
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If you use the code ID AC25 MKO, that gets you 25% off of your
6:04
registration. So that's pretty exciting.
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And then a couple weeks later, we've got it done.
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A verse that's happening that's June 3rd to the 6th that's in
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Las Vegas and if you use the code IDV 25-I D AC25 that also
6:18
gets you 25% off. So there's a nice little trend
6:20
there. We'll have those in our show
6:22
notes below if you're or if you're watching on YouTube in
6:24
the description and it's always on our website idacpodcast.com
6:28
right on our homepage. Just Scroll down both beneath
6:30
the the listener to watch buttons and you'll see whatever
6:33
we've got currently active there.
6:34
So yeah, I'm excited for both those conferences.
6:36
We've got some neat plans for both and it's going to be
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interesting. You know, what's kind of crazy
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is like each of these conferences, we're busy dudes,
6:43
man. I mean, especially identifiers.
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We're going to be on stage a couple of times each, sometimes
6:50
together, sometimes apart. We're doing a number of podcast
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recordings at EIC. I'm going out there the week
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before. So if anybody's going to be in
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the OZO area on Wednesday, April 31st, we're going to do an
7:08
identity beer. And I've never been to an
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identity beer like an official event.
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So it's going to be official. I'm hoping if you're there,
7:18
you've reached out and join us. Yeah, that'd be cool.
7:21
Jim is fine. I'm going to put you on the hook
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for that. Sure, absolutely.
7:27
All right. We do the sponsored episodes
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right? Yeah, exactly right.
7:30
All right. Why don't we get to our episode
7:32
today, As you know, indicated by the title that people probably
7:35
read at this point, we're talking about Identity
7:36
Management Day 2025 and we're welcoming back Jeff Rich.
7:40
He's the Executive Director at the Identity Defined Security
7:43
Alliance or the IDSA. Welcome back to the show, Jeff.
7:46
Thanks Jeff very much and gems, good to see you both again.
7:50
Yeah. I feel like we see each other at
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conferences here and there. And then we also, you know, are
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great supporters of Identity Management Day.
7:56
We have linked on our on our own website right at the top of the
7:59
banner there. But why don't we get a little
8:02
bit of an update maybe from the IDSA?
8:04
Any news, developments, things that people should be aware of
8:07
maybe that have taken place over the last several months?
8:09
Sure. I always like to talk about
8:11
that. And generally just wanted to say
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if you are having beers on April 31st, I want to join you.
8:17
Will you be in Oslo? Probably not, but well, on April
8:21
31st I could be. OK, well, we'll see you there,
8:24
man. I yeah, I think this went right
8:27
over Jim's head right now. I I think it might have, Yeah.
8:31
OK, Yeah. You're probably about April 30th
8:33
or maybe it's. Yeah.
8:34
What is it? The second is the 1st Friday, I
8:36
think. Yeah.
8:37
So there is no April 31st, Jim. Oh.
8:41
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. Hey.
8:44
I'll have free beer tomorrow. Oh, yeah, exactly, exactly.
8:47
I, I, I'm a true believer in that.
8:49
And to get back to answer your question, Jeff, I haven't
8:51
forgotten since we talked, which I think was about a year ago
8:55
about Identity Management Day 2024 allowed.
8:59
This happened, obviously Identity Management Day 2024
9:01
happened where we had over 1000 participants.
9:07
We had people from 82 different countries.
9:10
We had over 40 sessions. It was our first true around the
9:15
world event. It was a 21 hour event and we
9:18
didn't learn enough. So we're doing it that way again
9:21
this year. In addition to that, we put out
9:25
our annual identity security research document, which was
9:30
released at identifiers actually last year.
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And a lot of good trends came out of that.
9:35
You know, it's been close to a year now.
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So there's no great surprises at this point anymore, except that
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identity really is the focus of, of everything.
9:45
Look at every single breach you see.
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Look at every single compromise that exists.
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And even though it may not be the root cause of every single
9:53
issue, it could have stopped the majority of issues from ever
9:57
happened. And I'll, I'll use a, a recent,
10:00
without getting political about it, a recent event that occurred
10:03
that involved US National Security, even though there were
10:06
a lot of, there was a root cause as to what may have really made
10:10
it happen, in reality, it could have been avoided if identity
10:15
and authentication had really occurred correctly.
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So we're seeing that trend expand.
10:21
We the research last year said that over 95% of breaches and I
10:27
call that I'll round up to 100 had identity associated with it.
10:32
I think this year when we do the research which we moved to the
10:35
fault we're going to be releasing that in September, I
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think it's going to actually read 100%.
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I don't know how it couldn't. Yeah, I I had a little same way
10:45
I always just rounded it up to 100%.
10:48
But so Jeff, give us the 411 on Identity Management day.
10:54
So what is the date, what time do things get started, and how
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do people get registered? So first of all, the date right
11:03
here it's April 8th, 2025 and it's April 8th where you live.
11:09
We start at 0 midnight on April 8th and that's launches our
11:15
Oceana Asia region and that runs for about 7 hours with speakers
11:19
from the Oceana Asia region. And that component also has a
11:23
hybrid part to it where people will be meeting in person in
11:28
Melbourne, Australia. Now not everyone can get to
11:30
Melbourne even if you're in the Oceana Asia region.
11:32
So we're still streaming it online.
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But there is an an in person part.
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And to the earlier comment, I think it's in Australia and
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you're maybe beer involved after too.
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I I heard a rumor about that. Jeff, is that the first time
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that's been in person like that? Because I feel like it's been
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virtual maybe for the last couple years.
11:48
But it has been virtual since the beginning.
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This is our fifth this year of the first three were entirely
11:53
virtual and last year, pardon me, two years ago, Melbourne
11:58
started this event, but I streamed into Melbourne with a
12:02
greedy and then they had their own session.
12:05
They just had a complete independent last year.
12:09
We did this this way with them, learned a lot of great lessons,
12:14
learned that I'm not an event planner and that making a
12:18
hybrid. Event.
12:19
Halfway around the world in another hemisphere and making it
12:24
all work well, which because of a lot of people putting a lot of
12:27
time it did and we felt so good about.
12:30
That's why we decided to do it again this year.
12:32
So this is the second time where we actually have a synchronized,
12:35
I'll use that term, a synchronized hybrid event for
12:38
the first of the three segments. Then we moved to EMEA that's
12:42
come that's being headquartered out of Cairo.
12:45
So there's going to be speakers from Egypt and Israel and, and
12:49
Germany and Denmark and France. So, you know, we have each
12:55
region covered and then we move to the Americas.
12:57
And I, I have to live in the UTC or AG or GTM if you're AGMT
13:03
rather, if you're, if you're still old fashioned about it
13:06
time zone because it starts at midnight UTC and it goes until
13:09
2100. So wherever you are, you can see
13:14
live events and sessions that apply to you, and it's going to
13:18
be recorded as well. That sounds so much fun.
13:22
Jeff said that I've got an idea, one year for Identity Management
13:26
Day, we should start in Australia, both be there, do
13:30
live streams and then start taking planes West and try to
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see some of the live events finishing in.
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I guess the the final country would be West Coast of the US.
13:43
Jeff. Yeah, that would could be where
13:45
that you do. That and I'll buy.
13:46
Beers. I was going to say if you buy a
13:49
few minutes. Maybe I was going to.
13:50
I was going to say, yeah, that's big of you.
13:54
Jeff. Yeah, Jeff.
13:55
Jeff, if I buy the plane tickets, I'm going.
13:58
Hey, that's fine. I'm I'm happy to travel for it.
14:00
It's almost like watching like the celebration wave, like go
14:03
across the, you know, across the world, right?
14:05
Yeah, this is a. Yeah, it is a celebration.
14:09
So tell us more about what this event is all about.
14:12
Yeah, so this so by the way, although the URL.
14:15
Isn't up there, and it should be.
14:17
You can register at identitymanagementday.org.
14:21
Easy enough to remember, you just have to be able to spell
14:25
and you'll get. It's free.
14:27
All events are free in it and as we have right now, 44 sessions
14:32
lined up with about 50 speakers. I know we have registrants from
14:37
around the world already. Obviously time will tell by the
14:40
time this airs as to how many we get from different countries and
14:44
that really interests us. A lot of what we're talking
14:47
about this year is there are some AI, heard you talking about
14:50
AI earlier and it's, and I'm of the opinion 2024 was a year of
14:56
AI. It's going to grow.
14:58
It's not it hasn't peaked, it's by no means done.
15:01
I believe in the identity space. 2025 is the year of the NHI, the
15:06
non human identity. And if we haven't focused enough
15:09
on that yet, you're going to see probably at least a third of our
15:12
sessions talking about NHI because it is truly a management
15:17
issue for everyone that thinks, oh, I can just take an NANHI and
15:22
manage it. Just like someone's user ID
15:24
doesn't work that way. You know, whether it's an
15:27
ephemeris instance dealing in a in a container that starts and
15:32
then stops and goes away, or it's a machine account that has
15:36
to have its credentials, you know, recast and reload it once
15:40
a month or whatever it is you're doing.
15:42
There's a whole bunch of different management techniques
15:45
and tools needed compared to the carbon based identities that
15:50
we're that we're used to dealing with.
15:53
So I, I think you're going to see a lot of that.
15:55
I'm excited about it. I like the different countries
15:58
we have involved as speakers now.
16:00
And in the Americas region we do have sponsors, the other two
16:03
don't and those sponsors are going to have exhibit booths.
16:08
And if you haven't been to one of our events before.
16:11
And we hear this often, it's as if you were at an in person
16:14
conference without the travel and the smell, which is awful.
16:17
Often what they say. And you can go right up to a
16:20
booth and you just, you go up to a booth and you just, you know,
16:23
you're going to see someone and they'll, they'll talk to you.
16:26
And as far as I know. They're not going to have any
16:28
deepfake or AI. Images they may, but I believe
16:31
they're going to be real live people.
16:33
You can download documents from them, you can watch videos and
16:36
for every one of those activities that a participant
16:39
takes part in, they get points and it that's all gamified.
16:43
So at the end of the Americas region, which is the end of the
16:46
entire event, we have a leaderboard of top three-point
16:49
getters get prizes and then there's prizes for each booth as
16:52
well. So it, it ends up being a real
16:56
educational fun International Day that people can benefit from
17:01
both emotionally, intellectually, and I guess
17:05
financially, depending on what the prizes are.
17:08
And the one thing I, I'm bringing up as well with this
17:13
year, you know, there's a, there's a lot going on in the
17:16
world, There's a lot of conflict and a lot of people are doing a
17:19
lot to, to stop it. Because obviously, you know, not
17:23
only are people's lives being after people's lives are being
17:26
ended. And it would be nice if we could
17:28
do that. And I'm by no means saying that
17:30
Identity Management Day is the solution for World Peace, but
17:34
for 21 hours? From.
17:36
I'm not saying it's not. No, no, I'm not denying and I'm
17:40
just not saying it is. But for 21 hours, we can all
17:44
recognize that even though each one of us has our own identity,
17:48
we are all, each all of us together one, because we all
17:52
have way too much in common to be able to do that.
17:54
So I like to take the opportunity to say we are going
17:58
around the world in a real peaceful way, saying we all work
18:01
together for the same, for the same thing.
18:04
Yeah, that's pretty cool. You know something else that's
18:07
pretty cool. I started going through the
18:09
agenda for Identity Management Day.
18:11
I saw a couple of the speakers that are on the agenda.
18:16
So Anders, I saw Henrique people who've are identity at the
18:25
center alumni, if you will, really exciting stuff.
18:30
Talk to us a little bit about some of those, some of the
18:33
agenda, what people can expect from the kind of content they're
18:37
going to hear about that day. So I've already mentioned, you
18:43
know, it's, there's a lot that's going to be well, there's going
18:45
to be some on AI, there's going to be a lot on the NHI.
18:47
I've yet to mention the theme of this year's event, which is
18:51
existential identity. And the more we work with this
18:55
and we thought about it, I, I, I see, I see reaction there to
18:58
this because we struggle with what do we want the theme to be?
19:01
Because last year it was identity management around the
19:04
world. And, and that worked for a year,
19:06
but it got really stale. So that was, that was good.
19:09
And we, So what do we want it to be this year?
19:12
And NHI kept coming up. And I didn't want to be, you
19:15
know, 2025, the year of NHI, even though I've already said
19:18
that once today that that's not what I wanted the theme to be.
19:21
So we came back and forth and at some point someone said, you
19:24
know, some people are having an existential crisis about what
19:29
their identity is and what it's being used to do.
19:33
And, and, and it just came all of a sudden existential
19:36
identity. Can you truly define who you are
19:39
at any given point in time doing any given function?
19:42
And is that the only one of you? And, and where's that going?
19:47
And it, but I happen to get too serious about it.
19:49
I think if you just look at it from that perspective, we all of
19:53
our identities, I believe, are about to start being reformed in
19:56
a way that, you know, you're still going to be Jim and Jeff,
20:00
please. But although the AI discussion
20:04
you had, man, maybe not, but I, I, I like to think that now
20:10
we're going to look at how are we being used when in, you know,
20:13
at at some point, I don't know if you've seen this, I'm going
20:16
to go off on the tangent. Imagine that if you in St.
20:20
Petersburg, FL, there is the Salvador Dali Museum.
20:24
If you've never been there, it's actually pretty interesting.
20:26
You don't have to spend all your time at the beach.
20:28
Find a rainy day and go to the Salvador Dali Museum.
20:32
It not only does it have a lot of his art, but you may or may
20:35
not appreciate, but there is an, an AI focused generative image
20:41
of Dali that can answer your questions.
20:44
And, you know, it's, I mean, it's just many steps past the
20:49
Disney animatronic characters, you know, Abe Lincoln, I was
20:54
speaking saying Gettysburg Address.
20:56
Does it actually answer the questions though?
20:58
Or does it just give you more riddles or more other things to
21:00
think about? It, well, it's, it's kind of
21:02
both, you know, it's, it's not a true interactive ask me a
21:06
question. I always have a debate that
21:07
won't happen. But if you ask some questions,
21:10
it will give you an answer that may be different from an answer
21:12
it gave before. So I don't know the programming
21:16
behind it. So I can't say for sure if it if
21:18
it's simply randomized or, or what, but the reason I bring it
21:22
up is not because I'm a either a huge fan of Dali or I'm trying
21:25
to sell tickets to the museum. But I think you're seeing the
21:30
beginning of what we are going to start dealing with.
21:32
And, and let me take that a step further from an identity
21:36
perspective. I'm guessing many people here,
21:39
or at least some of the people listening to this or and
21:41
watching this sold their DNA to a 23andMe.
21:47
I say it that way because that's kind of what you, Yep, you know,
21:50
it's kind of what happened here. That information now that
21:55
23andMe is about to be sold is going to end up in the hands of
21:58
whoever buys it. I'm not saying they're evil or
22:02
that 23 means or that anything bad may happen.
22:06
But I am bringing up the fact that your DNA, which is really
22:09
your true identity, a component of your true identity, can now
22:13
transfer hands out of your control.
22:16
And what does that mean? And will there be a Jim McDonald
22:22
version 100 years from now because of it?
22:26
I don't think that's possible. Sorry, Jim.
22:29
No way, No way, man. You already tried to create one
22:32
with the April Fool's episode. But so here's what I was
22:38
thinking as you're talking about all that is like what is an
22:42
identity? What gets an identity?
22:44
What is an identity for a person?
22:47
Because we talked about the identity of things.
22:50
There's a thermostat qualify as an identity.
22:54
This is just anything that has a chip in it, that's an identity.
23:00
What about my bottle of soda? Is that an identity?
23:03
Like where does it? Where does it end?
23:05
I think for me an AI, probably, if the AI is responsible for
23:13
making decisions, is an identity.
23:18
What do you think? Oh no, I I completely agree.
23:21
I think if any AI or even more basic machine learning can make
23:26
decisions based on context, rules and input, then there's an
23:32
identity associated with it. And now back to what you're.
23:34
Referring to earlier. I'm not ready to say that your
23:38
your your bottle of soda is, is an identity and and you just
23:42
drained the identity out of it. But the but anything with a chip
23:47
in it is not necessarily not doesn't necessarily have an
23:51
identity. See how you made me thirsty just
23:53
looking at that? I don't think everything with a
23:57
chip has an identity, but any device with a chip that has to
24:01
communicate with something else has an identity.
24:06
And if it didn't, how would the receiving end of it know who it
24:10
was that was communicating? And I do notice it.
24:12
Who? I should have said what, but
24:13
yeah. Is there is there a concept of
24:18
an account? Is an account an identity?
24:21
Are they basically synonymous? I don't think they are thinking
24:25
identity is. I have an identity, have a
24:28
number of accounts and a thermostat sending data to
24:33
something. I don't really think that is an
24:36
identity. I think of that as it has an
24:39
account so they can get to the API to dump the data.
24:43
Just a just a silicon wafer. Jeff, this is something like Jim
24:49
and I have gone back and forth on a couple times is this
24:51
concept of identity and account. And I, I, I take a, I take a
24:56
looser interpretation, I guess of it, Jim, would that be fair?
24:59
Like where it's not just humans, I feel like a non human can also
25:03
have an identity. That's why we call it non human
25:05
identity. But I don't, I, I'm, there's a
25:07
lot of Gray in there. You know, thermostats, a good
25:10
one. I've got 2 smart thermostats in
25:12
my house. Who do they belong to?
25:15
I guess ultimately they roll up under me.
25:18
Because I'm the you. Here they do, but I've also set
25:20
up an identity for my house. So in Google Home or in, you
25:25
know, the Apple's home kit, you establish a, a virtual construct
25:30
of your home and then you assign devices.
25:33
I mean, I must have like 50 smart devices in my house, but
25:36
they're all the home smart devices, if that makes sense.
25:40
Now, ultimately the home, you know, is mine responsibility and
25:45
so it rolls up under me. But each of those things
25:48
definitely needs an account. But I feel like they do need an
25:50
identity as well to be able to say, OK, well, this is my
25:53
thermostat, this is my smart lights or, you know, my cameras
25:58
or whatever it may be, right? Things like that.
26:01
And I, I don't, I don't, I, I guess I'm not sure what I'm
26:03
saying other than it's like this identity and account thing.
26:08
Maybe it's a little greater than I was thinking.
26:12
Yeah, I think that people just use the term loosely.
26:15
I think it's like the the word roles.
26:17
Like people use the word roles if they're application
26:20
developers. It's like these are the roles
26:22
within our application. They're IGA administrators.
26:25
Talking about a role is like a grouping of entitlements that
26:29
can cross multiple applications. Get those two points of view
26:35
talking in the, you know, there's a collision because
26:38
we're not using common vernacular.
26:41
And I just think that this whole idea of, you know, non human
26:45
identity is me. I'm just getting hung up on on
26:49
the word because it is what it is.
26:52
But I don't think in many cases that they are identities.
26:55
I think they're accounts. So I can see your point of view
26:59
and first of all, I want, I want to thank both of you for taking
27:01
this discussion right along the existential identity theme
27:05
because I believe. We got profound real quick.
27:07
Yeah, but that's exactly how we came up with a theme.
27:09
In fact, they may end up becoming the theme of IDSA.
27:12
I I think it it's going to be around for a while, probably
27:15
longer than me. But to answer your question,
27:17
Jim, do you do you know what what this is?
27:23
Remote control. Yes, very good.
27:24
OK, you pass the test. A 2020 vision?
27:29
Not quite. Yes, but what action did you
27:31
take? What did you do to tell me what
27:32
it was? You looked at it, but then what
27:34
did you do? I processed it in my brain.
27:39
And you identified. I used my brain.
27:42
Yes, you identified it. And if you look at the root of
27:45
the word of identify identity, they're both as they, they both
27:49
come from the same root. So the reason I believe that an
27:53
account is part of an identity, just like DNA is part of an
27:57
identity. DNA doesn't have your
27:59
personality. It can help influence how your
28:02
personality is going to manifest itself.
28:05
So it all combines to be part of a carbon based human identity,
28:10
but from a for a machine identity.
28:12
The reason I think it's important is that, Jeff, with
28:16
your two thermostats, you have one in room A and 1:00 in room B
28:20
and you probably label them differently, you know, in
28:23
whatever application you use for that and when, when and when the
28:27
communications occur, you know which thermostat you're
28:30
identifying, which thermostat is sending that signal.
28:33
You can identify which thermostat to, to send a signal
28:36
to say turn the temperature up or down.
28:38
So because you have to identify it, I posit that there is an
28:42
identity associated with it. There is.
28:45
I'm not going to say that there's a either consciousness
28:48
or a soul or a spirit associated with it, but there is an
28:52
identity associated with it. Yeah, you have to assume that
28:55
like you've got that one thermostat probably has a bunch
28:59
of service accounts running on it somewhere, right?
29:01
Little microprocessors, there's probably AP is that it's hitting
29:05
and each of those endpoints that it's trying to communicate to
29:08
needs to identify what is this thing trying to get to me.
29:11
Hopefully they're doing security about it right, You know, things
29:13
like that. So I it's to me that's an
29:16
identity like my thermostat. Yes, it has.
29:18
It sounds weird to say that right.
29:20
Or, you know, my smart ring has an identity.
29:22
This is how I this is how things communicate back and forth.
29:25
And then an identity might have a bunch of different accounts
29:29
beneath it. I think where you draw the and I
29:32
and Jim, I kind of kid it from your perspective as OK, where
29:34
you draw the line of identity. Is it human?
29:36
Is it not human? Does my collection of Apple
29:39
devices, is that my Apple identity?
29:42
Because I have a MacBook, an iPad, a watch, a phone, and
29:45
whatever else? It's probably out there.
29:47
Like where do you draw the line is probably what I'm thinking
29:49
that you're thinking about. Is that right, Jim?
29:52
Yeah. Well, I take that Apple example.
29:54
I mean, you could potentially the identity is still you like I
29:59
think if you asked Apple like what's my identity is Jeff
30:02
Sedman and you have maybe an Apple device issued by your
30:07
company and you have to have an Apple ID for your company and
30:11
you have to have an Apple ID for personal.
30:14
Does that make are those two identities or is it you're the
30:18
account owner, it's one identity and those are your accounts?
30:22
So let me pose a question from that When you sell your watch,
30:27
what happens to the identity? Right.
30:30
You deassociate it with from the primary identity associated with
30:34
it, Yeah. You disassociate it with
30:35
yourself, but the actual identity the watch can't change,
30:39
otherwise whoever buys it next will never be able to activate
30:42
it. That's that Mac address.
30:45
Yep. You can't have more than one.
30:47
Right. So maybe.
30:48
Well, that's how the theory. OK.
30:53
OK. So it's it, it becomes and it,
30:58
it becomes an existential crisis right now that I don't think is
31:02
is dooming us in any way. But it is something we have to
31:06
figure out. Because if we run fast headlong
31:10
into the let's just have non machine identities and let's
31:14
have AI drive it. I'm not saying the robots are
31:17
going to take over the world. I'm not.
31:20
Yeah, they could. But for now, I'm not going to
31:22
say they will, but we run the risk of getting to a place where
31:27
we have IPV 6 won't handle enough addresses and we have all
31:32
of these identities that are impossible to manage.
31:36
And how do we line that up and how do we categorize them?
31:39
And in gym, there has to be a voice of reason like you, this
31:42
is well, where do we draw the line and what is simply a
31:45
machine that has an account versus an identity.
31:48
I think it's in our future that the answer to that's in our
31:51
future. That what happens when quantum
31:53
comes around and everything is everything is true and false at
31:56
the same time, that then we're really screwed.
31:58
Talk about existential identity. You know your quantum state is
32:01
going to be a big part of that. Well, yeah, but the good thing
32:04
about quantum state is it either exists or it doesn't.
32:09
Well, you're if you're at, if you're at, you know you're super
32:12
position, you could be both. So what are the odds that you
32:15
exist versus the odds that you don't exist is really the
32:19
calculation you're trying to perform, You know, well, let's
32:22
just say, so we, we put IPV 6IN because IPV 4 wasn't enough.
32:26
So IPV 8, IPVQ for quantum, right?
32:31
What we have to come up with some way to keep identifying
32:34
devices? Give it a serial number of some
32:35
sort, Some unique identifier? Exactly.
32:39
You know there's an there's an identity associated with each
32:41
piece of space junk. Think about how many items there
32:46
are there. There's an identity associated
32:50
with every known star. See, I, I knew I'd be able to
32:52
bring that in. And we don't even know about all
32:56
of them, not even, we haven't even scratched the surface on
33:00
them. So identity means a lot more
33:03
than it's my name and my body. I mean, that's important.
33:06
And for humans, that's where it starts and and where the core
33:10
needs to be. Where do we draw the line and
33:13
how do we define everything else?
33:16
That's part of it, especially when you have non human
33:18
identities in the AI starting to mingle and determine what's what
33:22
we're going to be working with going forward.
33:25
Yeah, go back to the star item. I mean, you can purchase an
33:28
identity for a star, right? You can name a star.
33:31
So if we wanted a Jim, you know, maybe that's something we do is
33:34
we, we buy a star, we call it identity at the center or Idec
33:38
or something like that. What do you think?
33:40
Is that a good way to spend our funds?
33:42
That means that the podcast will live on forever, right?
33:46
Well, this is on the Internet, so you have to assume it'll be
33:48
rare forever. Somebody is going to be looking
33:50
or, you know, listening to this podcast in the year 3000.
33:53
Like man, look at these Cavemen talking about these identity
33:56
concepts. And so and you're thinking it's
33:58
going to live forever on Earth, it's actually going to live
34:01
forever everywhere because there are radio waves associated with
34:05
even if you're not broadcasting for antenna that are going to
34:07
work. Their way out to the universe.
34:09
And at some point, sometime in the future, there'll be some
34:12
creature that will know how to receive and interpret these, and
34:15
they're going to say, whoa, look at this Earth.
34:19
What are they thinking? So.
34:22
Yeah. So Jeffrey, another question,
34:26
another big topic, AI and identity is this agentic AI, so
34:34
that there's going to be these AI agents everywhere and how do
34:38
you manage identity when it comes to those that something
34:42
that your speakers are going to get into during identity
34:46
management day? You know, I saw at least one
34:49
abstract that had the word agentic in it, and my guess is
34:53
it'll probably be a couple. It's probably a bit early to
34:56
really start talking about what that means for identity because
35:01
we're still at the point where, you know, whether it's from
35:05
Google or Microsoft really, really we're starting to even
35:08
figure out what does agentic ID, agentic AI rather really mean
35:14
and what can you do with it? And you know, back to the
35:17
quantum decision, I think it's going to be we're going to have
35:20
to have more democratization of quantum computing before agentic
35:25
AI can really take off because it doesn't take much and say,
35:30
oh, I want to do this and this and this and your, your CPU melt
35:34
because you can't handle all of that input.
35:37
So right now that's a good limiting factor, I think to our
35:40
benefit. But that is yet again, another
35:43
thing to to figure out. So I think it's a bit early.
35:46
You're going to hear agentic AI and there has to be an identity
35:49
associated with it. The question then becomes what
35:52
sort of intelligence is truly associated with that agentic
35:56
identity? Because every time it performs a
35:59
task, it knows more. It doesn't mean it's smarter,
36:02
but it knows more. I, I think agentic AI is kind of
36:07
the next big thing in this world of AI because it is a proactive
36:12
typically process that's running.
36:15
It's something that's out there. And I think this is what a lot
36:17
of security companies are looking at is, you know, how do
36:19
you, how do we make our software more secure?
36:21
How do we make our systems more secure?
36:23
And if you've got a 24 by 7 AI that is constantly evaluating,
36:28
trying to find threats, etcetera, and and it has the
36:34
autonomy to do something about it.
36:36
I think that's the big part about the agentic side is right
36:39
now the most basic use case is you think about something like,
36:42
you know, all the deep research and deep sea type things where
36:45
it's taking a multi step approach to say, let me research
36:47
this topic and search these different websites or resources
36:52
and then compile this report, right?
36:53
That's an early form of that agentic AI.
36:56
But imagine a day when you know you've got AI identities running
37:02
around your infrastructure and they might even not even be
37:07
bound to a specific device or platform or system.
37:10
It could be a generalized agentic AI that is looking at
37:14
all these things as a holistic approach that says, oh, OK, hey,
37:17
we noticed that this firewall was misconfigured and we fixed
37:20
that. Hey, we noticed this S3 bucket
37:22
was misconfigured. Let's fix that.
37:24
And it's constantly sort of evaluating.
37:26
And now I'm starting to feel like I'm getting into the matrix
37:29
right? Or any sort of sci-fi in the
37:31
future where you've got a is talking to each other and I've
37:35
kind of joked my source and I'm like, well, you a is figure it
37:37
out. That'll let me know what you
37:38
decide as the human. And I think that's a big, big
37:41
step that's going to come through.
37:42
But each of those AIS is going to have some sort of non human
37:46
identity associated with it because how else are you going
37:47
to track who did what, or in this case, what did what?
37:51
I think it's a really important topic to get into as part of
37:54
this evolution of where we're going for both, not just AI, but
37:56
how we're going to manage the identities on it.
37:58
Yeah, and what knows what. Yeah, what knows what, what does
38:02
who it is a whole bunch of different stuff.
38:05
I'm staying away from the what does who?
38:06
Thank you very much. I know one of the things that
38:10
comes up through Identity Management Day are the awards.
38:13
Maybe you can talk a little bit about what those awards are and
38:17
kind of give us a preview. You don't have to spoil it,
38:18
right? It's coming up.
38:19
I think this will this will air the day before this goes live or
38:22
before the awards get announced. But if you can kind of preview
38:25
what are the awards, who are they for and what should people
38:27
expect? About that, the awards will be
38:28
announced at the beginning of the America's region.
38:31
That will be at I believe 10:00 AM Eastern.
38:37
I have to get my head out of UTC here on the 8th in the US and
38:43
there are 4 categories and the opportunity to submit nominees
38:49
will they've closed by the time you're seeing this, but the, the
38:52
four categories are the SMB or small medium business, small
38:59
medium business identity project of the year.
39:02
You know what, what identity project made the most difference
39:05
in the smaller medium business? What enterprise project of the
39:09
year? What identity project made the
39:11
biggest difference for an enterprise?
39:13
There's two other awards. There is the identity
39:17
professional of the year, and that could be anyone that just
39:21
either a champion for identity or someone that invented
39:24
something or is just people identify identity with them and
39:31
make it go forward. And the fourth category is the
39:34
best innovative use of new technology and identity.
39:39
And last year we really had to push to get nominees for that
39:44
topic. I think everyone was afraid to.
39:47
That is now the largest number of submissions we've received.
39:50
So in a year that. Sea change has occurred.
39:54
A lot of people are saying, hey, you can use identity in an
39:58
innovative way. To really help drive the
40:01
business and isn't that a good thing for us rather than, oh,
40:04
you're a cost center, just reset the password.
40:06
And go away. How does someone nominate for
40:11
these things? And it's probably too late for
40:13
this year, but if I'm thinking about as a goal maybe for like
40:16
next year to get nominated for something, is it self
40:19
nomination? Do you need to have someone else
40:21
nominate for you? Maybe it's different based on
40:22
the type of awards, Like how How can people get involved with
40:26
this and really kind of make this I you know, I had to say
40:29
like the Emmys or the Oscars, you know, for identity where
40:32
it's like, yeah, this is a big thing.
40:33
Yeah, the I DS. That'd be great.
40:36
So thank you. I'm going to use that and I'll
40:38
give you credit for it. Yeah, it it, we, we essentially
40:43
have no rules. We have an online form you fill
40:45
out from our website, whichisidsalliance.org.
40:48
And remember to register for the event.
40:50
And you can still do it even when even after the event, you
40:53
can register and see some recordings.
40:55
But it's identitymanagementday.org.
40:57
You just go to that site, click the award you want to submit and
41:01
that's it. We just ask for information.
41:03
You can nominate yourself. We're not worried about you
41:06
having to have any friends. That's OK.
41:09
You can nominate yourself. You can nominate your company.
41:12
You can nominate another company.
41:14
You can nominate your customers company.
41:16
We've had someone that's nominated their ID supplier.
41:20
Although we do, we that's it is the only rule we have is vendors
41:24
can't participate in this because vendors, let's face it,
41:28
they're usually on the leading edge.
41:30
So we keep them out of the awards.
41:32
But beyond that, there's really no rules.
41:34
Just fill out a form. It's simple.
41:36
If it takes you 5 minutes, you're a slow typist.
41:40
And what do you look for in nominee?
41:42
Is there a panel that reviews it?
41:44
Are you looking for originality or consensus?
41:47
I guess kind of talk me through like I want to make a good case
41:50
for this next year, right? If I'm listening to this, how do
41:54
I sell myself on that? Well, the, the, the one thing
41:59
that all four wars have in common is did the submitter
42:04
demonstrate that there was movement made because of either
42:09
that individual, you know, professional of the year or the
42:12
innovative use or the project of the year.
42:15
So we really look for how much movement occurred.
42:20
We take into account the maturity of the individual
42:24
organization. There's nothing, you know, a lot
42:26
of people said, well, I've only been doing this for two years,
42:29
so I can't be the professional of the year.
42:31
Not true. You know it.
42:32
How much of A move, how much movement, how much of A change
42:35
are you making happen versus how much stuff you know and how long
42:39
have you been doing it? It's not a lifetime achievement
42:42
award and maybe one day we will have one of those, but it is not
42:46
really identity professional of the year or project of the year.
42:50
So the submitter needs to be able to demonstrate here's where
42:53
we were before and here's where we were after.
42:56
That's really all we look for. And our planning committee for
43:00
the, for identity management day ends up being the review judging
43:04
committee for that. And you know, we always end up
43:07
having discussions like you're going to different perspectives,
43:09
different people. They can submit someone, but
43:12
obviously they have to recuse themselves from from voting on
43:16
that when when they do. But we always end up with when
43:21
we have the four listed, everyone's in full agreement and
43:23
then supportive and say, Yep, those are the right ones.
43:26
OK, my last and final question, maybe the most important.
43:30
How do you stay awake for 21 hours for Identity management
43:33
day if you're starting at 0 and going to 21 on UTC time?
43:38
So I I've I've discovered that there is a difference between
43:43
being awake and being lucid. I can stay awake for 21 hours.
43:49
And did you ever drive home? Like, you know, if you drive to
43:52
work and you drive home and you get home one day and you
43:54
realize, wow, I don't even know how I got here.
43:58
And let's assume that you weren't drinking or anything.
44:01
And, and I mean, I drove home and I'm sure I went the same
44:04
way. Did I stop at that red light?
44:07
You know, and then you check and, and I promise you'll do
44:10
this. If you, if you, if you think
44:12
about this enough, you'll go see if there's any dents or
44:14
scratches on your car. Then you realize, well, things
44:17
must have gone well. Part of it is that, and I'm not
44:20
going to say when and where that happens because I'd like to
44:23
think everyone's going to get as much attention as my attention
44:26
as you can. But caffeine helps at different
44:29
times. 20 minute power naps. Like if a session starts and I
44:33
know it's going well and I know this is not the first time
44:36
someone's done this, I'll grab a few winks and I have multiple
44:40
alarms. Because you run the risk if
44:43
you're an hour. 18 and you take a nap like it's going to take a
44:46
lot to switch you up, but that's pretty much it.
44:49
I, you know, a couple 20 minute cat naps.
44:51
But for the most part, and there's a lot of good people
44:53
supporting this and they're always telling Courtney, you
44:56
know, you can go sleep for a few hours.
44:59
And we always say, yeah, I think I may try that.
45:01
And we never. Well, I'm excited for this.
45:03
April 8th, I am registered, so I will be attending as much as I
45:06
can so people can check it out. We'll have links in our show
45:10
notes for people check it out. Identity Management Day 2025 is
45:14
exciting stuff. Let's see.
45:17
Let's end on a later note. And I have a would you rather
45:20
question for today. So Jeff, as our guest of honor,
45:25
I'll let you go 1st and then Jim, I want your thoughts.
45:28
Would you rather give up salt or sugar when it comes to.
45:33
Food OK, knowing that I'm always going to have the amount I need.
45:38
Yes, Jim, I know you're probably concerned about the nutrients
45:42
here. Around this you stole my answer.
45:45
Yeah, I am. So I'm sorry I didn't.
45:46
No, I didn't give your answer. Let's assume health is not a
45:49
part of this, it is purely just the flavor profile of salt
45:52
versus sugar. So I'll give up salt only
45:55
because I've never liked salt. I just, I just like it.
45:57
I don't like sugar that much, but I really dislike salt.
46:01
So if it has to be a binary choice, salt goes away.
46:04
What about like a nice steak or pizza or cheese or things like
46:09
that? Nothing.
46:10
So. So let me qualify the answer
46:15
with I'm a vegan, so steak and cheese don't really matter too
46:19
much to me. And, and, and for the record,
46:22
it's not a fad. I've been a vegan now for over
46:24
30 years and there was a reason for it and I stuck with it.
46:27
And, but no, I don't, we don't have table salt in our house.
46:33
And it's not because and I have low blood pressure.
46:35
So I mean, sometimes low blood pressure, but that's not why I I
46:39
avoid salt. I just never cared for it.
46:41
I get, I never like anything salt salty.
46:44
I like savory, you give me all the Peppers you want in the
46:47
world and I'll eat them non-stop.
46:49
But I just never cared for salt and I don't really add sugar too
46:53
much either. But if I had to choose, I'll
46:56
take sugar over salt just because salt is pretty much
46:59
distasteful to me. OK, Jim, how about yourself?
47:02
Would you rather give up salt or sugar?
47:05
Like I said, Jeff Bridge stole my answer because he hinted like
47:11
if you have enough to survive. So I had an easy answer when I
47:16
heard this question was salt, of course, because without salt you
47:20
die. Without sugar, you.
47:24
You don't die it, but you don't necessarily die.
47:27
But you don't really live either, man.
47:29
You don't need carbohydrates. There's no such thing as an
47:31
essential carbohydrate, right? There's essential fats.
47:35
Protein is essential to survival.
47:39
And here's the thing, I'm an outright sugar addict.
47:44
I like salt. So this is a rotten question.
47:48
That's the whole point, though, is to make you think.
47:50
That's the whole point, right? So here's my answer is I would
47:53
give up sugar actually, because the effect of giving me up sugar
47:58
is like enormous health benefits.
48:01
There's actually no plenty of people cut sugar from their diet
48:06
and they lose weight and their body.
48:09
They they have all kinds of great effects.
48:12
It would be hell to go through to get there.
48:16
But give me a binary choice. How'd you sugar?
48:19
I'd cut sugar. So I'm with you on this one.
48:22
I mean, I I look, I love both sugar salt, but I don't know how
48:27
I could live without salt for just the flavor profile.
48:31
I know like a nice, I mean, I love salt.
48:33
I'm like the opposite, Jeff. I mean, you know, sea salt,
48:37
table salt, garlic salt. I think there's just a variety
48:40
of different seasonings that you just or salt is such an
48:42
important part of it. And I, and I do this staring off
48:45
to my side here where I have a a bag full of chocolate covered
48:49
walnuts and chocolate covered almonds.
48:51
And I'm still saying I have to give up sugar.
48:54
Jim, I knew you were going to go to the health angle with it.
48:56
Like I in my mind, that was like a given, 'cause I'm like, Oh
48:58
yeah. You don't mean long enough.
49:00
Come on. Yeah, of course.
49:01
But I can't. I mean, I, I just my, my life
49:04
would be my food would be too boring without salt.
49:09
And so I'm with you. I, I would drop the sugar.
49:11
Jeff, as you hear, Jim and I talked through our reasoning for
49:14
this. How crazy are either of us?
49:18
Oh no, I knew before this question that you were both
49:21
crazy, but but relative to this question, I I think you're both
49:26
spot on to what makes your identity who you are.
49:29
By the way, if you think food's too boring without salt, I do
49:32
propose that try different Peppers too.
49:34
They're there as well. I'm not saying.
49:36
You should give up salt but. There's other things out there.
49:40
Are we talking spicy Peppers or like I guess, are there any kind
49:44
of? Pepper the whole.
49:44
Spectrum. The whole spectrum from bell
49:47
pepper to to Carolina Reaper and everything in between.
49:51
I I. That is a wide range right
49:53
there. I like Peppers.
49:56
It's not that I don't like that stuff, but I would just put salt
49:58
on that pepper, that's all. Well, Jeff, let's since in honor
50:02
of of Jeff Rich, our vegan friend, throw meat into that.
50:07
Would you give up sugar, salt or meat?
50:10
Well, that's an easy 1 though, right Jeff?
50:12
Oh yeah. Not not for him.
50:14
What would you give up? I'd give up sugar.
50:16
Oh, what are we giving up? Salt, sugar or meat?
50:20
Yeah. You know what?
50:22
I think I could give up meat before those two.
50:26
And I love a good steak. You know, me and my, my, I still
50:29
dream about that Wagyu steak we had in Vegas like a decade ago.
50:32
So I would give up meat before I'd give up salt and sugar.
50:37
You're like, that's not the answer you were expecting from
50:40
me. No, I mean I've I wasn't sure
50:43
what you would go with. I mean, again, miserable
50:46
question right, but I would still give up sugar.
50:50
I I couldn't give up meat very easily.
50:54
Yeah, unless I had like a hard work up and they were like,
50:57
dude, you don't stop eating meat.
50:59
You're dead, man There's. Some people who choose to
51:01
continue to eat the meat. Yeah, you're right.
51:05
So Jeff, you and I are actually a quantum entanglement the book,
51:09
Jeff, but we end up being reverse sides of the coin, at
51:12
least on this. And I know the ideal gift for
51:15
Jeff said. When should I ever decide to get
51:17
you a gift? OK.
51:18
Salt. Sea salt covered caramels.
51:21
Oh. Yeah, now we're.
51:22
Talking see that see that has to be There's the best of both
51:24
worlds for you I. Was going to say that.
51:25
You can't go wrong with that kind of stuff.
51:27
I mean, sea salt on on on chocolate is fantastic.
51:30
I just, I just love salt. I mean, what can I say?
51:32
I'm just, I'm just a salt nut, OK, We got ridiculous to the
51:36
end, but I appreciate Jeff sticking with us through that.
51:41
We're going to go ahead and wrap it up for this week.
51:43
I'll have links again in our show notes.
51:45
Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn, learn more about the IDSA and
51:48
definitely get out there, register for Identity management
51:51
Day 2025. There's a lot of content in
51:54
like, like you said, Jeff is you can watch it even after the
51:57
fact, right? So if there's things that maybe
51:58
you miss, you'll be able to kind of go back and kind of review
52:00
that. So it's exciting stuff.
52:03
It's a great time of year. It's time to celebrate, right?
52:06
All that, all the work that we do throughout the year and
52:09
celebrate all the I am heroes are out there.
52:10
And there's a lot of you guys who are listening who are
52:12
absolutely I am heroes for your organization.
52:14
And whether you know it or not, you probably are.
52:18
So take the time, celebrate and spread the word.
52:21
Like let's get more people involved with this and let's
52:23
turn this into the, the, the IDs or the Oscars or the Emmys for
52:27
the identity space. And maybe we can make that
52:29
happen in the future. So.
52:33
There you go. If that's not insensitive
52:34
enough, I don't know what is. OK.
52:36
Thanks everybody for watching and or listening and we'll talk
52:40
with everybody in the next one. You've been listening to
52:45
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
52:49
Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon.
52:53
But in the meantime, hit the website at
52:55
identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at
53:02
the Center.