Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Construction Scheduler: Fuh-gantt-aboudit!

Transcript

Construction Scheduler: Fuh-gantt-aboudit! · Roast the Post Podcast

0:00
Hi,
0:00
I'm Paul Austin-Menear,
0:01
and this is Roast the Post,
0:03
the story behind the bullet points.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: All right, so this week, ladies and gentlemen, welcome.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: We're diving into a job that sounds like it was written by a committee of
0:20
SPEAKER_00: architects,
0:21
SPEAKER_00: lawyers,
0:22
SPEAKER_00: and one very,
0:24
SPEAKER_00: very patient HR rep.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: Meet the Construction Scheduler,
0:29
SPEAKER_00: a role so buried in acronyms and corpo construction jargon,
0:32
you're going to need a Gantt chart and flow diagram just to
0:36
understand where the
0:37
SPEAKER_00: employee break room is.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: You'll be the glue holding together a major program at Toronto Pearson
0:43
SPEAKER_00: International Airport,
0:44
SPEAKER_00: herding cats,
0:45
SPEAKER_00: I mean herding stakeholders,
0:47
SPEAKER_00: through terminal modernizations,
0:49
SPEAKER_00: greenhouse gas initiatives,
0:51
SPEAKER_00: and world-class passenger experiences.
0:54
Big words for a two-page job ad that hints at a bowl full of
0:58
executive-level ego on the side.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: So is this construction management or just aviation-themed babysitting?
1:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's roast.
1:08
And a very special thanks to Celia in Montreal for sending this
1:11
job post in to us.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: This is a listener submission.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: We appreciate you.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: Keep them coming.
1:19
SPEAKER_00: So this is a construction scheduler job.
1:24
and I'm by no means an expert in the construction industry so I
1:30
was kind of curious
1:30
like scheduler what does a scheduler do and the word seems
1:35
self-explanatory right
1:36
SPEAKER_00: like you're a scheduler you schedule stuff
1:39
But I figured I should do a little bit of research and see what
1:43
a scheduler in this
1:44
SPEAKER_00: world actually does.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: So I went down the internet rabbit hole and I found myself on an industry
1:49
SPEAKER_00: association website for construction kind of organizations firm.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: And they say,
1:56
SPEAKER_00: kind of basically,
1:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:58
Construction Project Scheduler is the architect of time for
2:02
building projects.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: They develop and maintain detailed project timelines.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: They sequence tasks, allocate resources,
2:09
resources and coordinate with contractors their goals to ensure
2:14
that the project
2:15
stays on track minimizing cost delays and budget overruns so
2:20
you know I read that
2:21
and I think about Gantt charts I really think about Gantt
2:23
charts like you know this
2:25
task has to start here and end here the next task has to start
2:28
here and end here
2:29
and all those things run in sequence until the shovels are out
2:32
of the ground and
2:33
the mayor cutting the mayor's ribbon cutting ceremony kind of
2:36
happens and whatnot
2:37
SPEAKER_00: so
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Bear that in mind,
2:39
SPEAKER_00: folks,
2:40
SPEAKER_00: as we are going through the job ad because that's,
2:43
SPEAKER_00: I think,
2:43
SPEAKER_00: some kind of important context.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: Let's kick things off with the Roasty profile as per the usual.
2:49
So for the folks at home,
2:50
this is just a bit of a profile of the job ad to give some
2:54
context.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: And Jen has not seen this ahead of time.
2:57
We kind of like to just throw things at each other and let the
3:01
chips fall where they may.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit more fun that way.
3:05
and I'm going to read this job ad out kind of verbatim as they
3:08
wrote it so if there
3:11
are little things where I trip up over words or whatnot because
3:14
they've kind of
3:14
worded something a little bit strangely and I'm just trying to
3:17
deal with it in real
3:18
time bear that in mind so the job title for this ad is
3:23
scheduler scheduler the
3:26
report to title is your manager don't exactly know who that is
3:31
but it's your
3:32
SPEAKER_00: manager
3:34
the company size is 10,001 or more and that is across the
3:39
entire consortium because
3:40
the organization that has posted this job ad is a construction
3:44
consortium of
3:45
several companies that are working together on this project the
3:49
industry is
3:50
SPEAKER_00: construction as we might have guessed
3:52
SPEAKER_00: What do they do?
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Well,
3:53
SPEAKER_00: this organization,
3:55
it is like I kind of mentioned a special purpose consortium
3:58
formed to manage major
4:00
SPEAKER_00: infrastructure projects at Toronto Pearson International Airport for the
4:05
infrastructure investments that various levels of government
4:08
have made in recent
4:09
SPEAKER_00: years.
4:09
SPEAKER_00: Now they're trying to deploy all that cash.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: So that's what this organization does.
4:14
SPEAKER_00: That office location is in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: The job location is also in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: And as you might guess,
4:23
SPEAKER_00: the geographical operating area for this organization is Mississauga,
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Ontario,
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Canada.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: The job type is full time, but the duration is unknown.
4:35
They don't actually specify that in the job ad,
4:38
which I found kind of interesting.
4:42
I'm going to kick things off by reading out the introduction to
4:46
this job ad.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: I think it's pretty good context.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: This one's not too, too long.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: You know,
4:50
SPEAKER_00: it's probably about a page and a half or so,
4:53
but I'm not going to drill into absolutely every little thing
4:57
in this because there
4:58
SPEAKER_00: are some redundancies.
4:59
So we'll pick out some of the more interesting things to chat
5:02
about and go from there.
5:03
SPEAKER_00: The job ad is structured into a few different sections.
5:06
SPEAKER_00: There's a job summary section,
5:08
SPEAKER_00: a responsibilities section,
5:11
SPEAKER_00: a work conditions section,
5:13
SPEAKER_00: a desired skills,
5:15
SPEAKER_00: knowledge,
5:15
SPEAKER_00: and competencies section,
5:18
SPEAKER_00: and that's it.
5:20
So beginning off,
5:21
the company is a general partnership of firm,
5:25
firm,
5:26
firm,
5:27
and firm.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: We don't name and shame on this show,
5:30
partly because Jen and I don't have lawyers and partly because
5:33
that's just not our
5:33
SPEAKER_00: bag.
5:34
SPEAKER_00: We're not trying to embarrass folks.
5:37
These are supported by design partners Architect,
5:42
Architect,
5:43
and Architect.
5:44
SPEAKER_00: Together we are delivering The Thing,
5:48
a major program of client as a part of Toronto Pearson's
5:53
infrastructure development
5:54
SPEAKER_00: plan.
5:55
This multi-year program is designed to address immediate
5:58
passenger growth demands
6:00
SPEAKER_00: while preparing Canada's largest airport for the future of air travel,
6:04
SPEAKER_00: including critical upgrades to airfield and infrastructure,
6:08
SPEAKER_00: greenhouse gas reduction initiatives,
6:10
SPEAKER_00: modernization of terminals one and three,
6:14
SPEAKER_00: and the creation of a world class passenger experience.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where we break things in.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, on a side note,
6:22
SPEAKER_00: kind of feel bad for Toronto Pearson.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: Terminals one and three,
6:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
6:26
SPEAKER_00: for folks who aren't in Toronto,
6:28
SPEAKER_00: haven't flown through Toronto,
6:29
SPEAKER_00: aren't familiar with the airport.
6:31
SPEAKER_00: There's terminal one and there's terminal three.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: There's something missed in the middle.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: There's no Terminal 2.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: It's been that way pretty much the entire time I've lived in Toronto,
6:39
SPEAKER_00: and I've always wondered flippin' well,
6:40
SPEAKER_00: why?
6:40
SPEAKER_00: Why is there no Terminal 2?
6:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, we closed down Terminal 2 20 years ago and demolished it.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: So for 20 years, there's been Terminal 1 and Terminal 3.
6:49
We're going to do some rebuilding,
6:50
but let's not rename the terminals or anything.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: We're just going to keep two out of this.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: Maybe number twos are verboten at the airport or something.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: The next part of the job ad is job summary.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: So it says,
7:05
SPEAKER_00: as a project manager within the company,
7:09
you will lead and oversee the execution of complex
7:13
infrastructure scopes within the
7:15
SPEAKER_00: program.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: You'll be responsible for managing project schedules,
7:19
SPEAKER_00: budgets,
7:20
SPEAKER_00: risk,
7:20
SPEAKER_00: and stakeholder coordination while ensuring safety,
7:23
SPEAKER_00: quality and compliance are upheld through all phases.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: This role requires a strong leader who thrives in high security,
7:31
SPEAKER_00: high stakes environments,
7:32
SPEAKER_00: and can navigate the complexity of multi-stakeholder delivery models.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: So let's pause there.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Those two sections in mind, does anything come up?
7:42
One thing that stood out for me is that this job title is
7:45
supposedly scheduler,
7:46
SPEAKER_00: but they call you a project manager within the company.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: That stood out.
7:51
that stood out to me too because when you were describing kind
7:53
of at the top of
7:55
this the role itself I was like oh you mean a project manager
7:59
like that's that was
8:00
my first thought this is a project manager it's interesting how
8:03
many times we see
8:04
job ads that have a different title than than what's in the
8:09
body like it's I don't
8:11
know if it's just there was a final last-minute change and they
8:14
forgot to review it
8:15
SPEAKER_01: or they used a template or something like that and
8:18
but it happens quite often that there's a different title than
8:23
what the role title
8:24
is in the body and also just going all the way back to the
8:29
report the report too I
8:31
think is hilarious we love a report too like we want to know
8:35
what the reporting
8:36
structure is because it gives you so much more information into
8:40
like career
8:41
6catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear 6catalysts Roast the Post
8:44
pwamenear 6catalysts
8:45
Roast the Post pwamenear 6catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear
8:48
6catalysts Roast the
8:48
Post pwamenear 7catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear 7catalysts
8:51
Roast the Post
8:51
pwamenear 7catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear 7catalysts Roast
8:54
the Post pwamenear
8:55
7catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear 7catalysts Roast the Post
8:57
pwamenear 7catalysts
8:58
Roast the Post pwamenear 7catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear
9:00
7catalysts Roast the
9:01
Post pwamenear 7catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear 7catalysts
9:04
Roast the Post
9:04
SPEAKER_01: pwamenear 7catalysts Roast the Post pwamenear 7catalyst
9:09
and they just didn't do that one final look over before they
9:15
before they went live.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: Did you find it on LinkedIn or where was this?
9:19
SPEAKER_00: So this this was sent to us by somebody else.
9:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And I to be honest, I don't know where they found it.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: They they put the like we've
9:28
folks we've got a little form on a Google form link to our
9:32
website that's like hey
9:33
if you see a job ad send it to us just copy and paste the stuff
9:35
here in case the
9:37
job ad goes away before we have a chance to look at it so I'm
9:40
not quite sure where
9:41
SPEAKER_00: this came from but it does read
9:43
Read like something that would be posted to an Indeed or
9:47
something like that.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: Like one of those job sites.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: It was definitely a public posting.
9:51
Celia did say that in her note when things were coming in that
9:55
like it was a public posting.
9:57
She came across it because she's looking to change companies
10:03
that she works for.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: She's in construction, a little tired with what she's doing.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: So she was like, I was looking for jobs and I found this one.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of nuts because of A, B and C was what she said.
10:13
so she presumably found it the same way a lot of folks would uh
10:17
just in going out
10:17
there and hitting the job boards yeah okay very cool um no so
10:21
far so far very
10:22
interesting to me but um nothing beyond that like it's just I
10:26
just need more
10:27
information before I can dig into the the roast a bit what
10:31
about you it's wild to
10:33
SPEAKER_00: me that even we've gotten you know a paragraph and a half
10:38
SPEAKER_00: into this less than a half a page so far.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: And we're both kind of like,
10:41
SPEAKER_00: wait a second,
10:42
SPEAKER_00: is this a scheduling job or a project management job?
10:45
SPEAKER_00: The part that's wild to me
10:47
is that the amount of money that's being put into this airport
10:53
as part of the
10:53
infrastructure investments that the government of Canada and
10:57
the provincial
10:58
SPEAKER_00: government are making is well into the billions of dollars.
11:00
So this one infrastructure improvement area is getting several
11:05
billion dollars.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of coin.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: Yet this job ad is like
11:10
a little bit confused I find that interesting and Celia she
11:14
said like she did say
11:16
SPEAKER_00: in one of her one of her comments on putting sending things in that the
11:20
construction industry is in Canada particularly in Ontario is
11:26
going through a
11:27
SPEAKER_00: pretty a pretty pointed labor shortage
11:32
I wouldn't say a crisis but it is very difficult for
11:35
construction firms to find
11:37
people to the point where some construction firms are resorting
11:42
to like another
11:43
friend of mine who works in the construction industry said that
11:46
her firm when I was
11:47
chatting with her about it on background she said that her firm
11:51
has taken to
11:52
SPEAKER_00: sending people out to bars
11:55
and trying to find people who can like work general labor on
11:59
construction sites and
12:00
SPEAKER_00: be like,
12:01
SPEAKER_00: do you need a job?
12:02
SPEAKER_00: That's wild.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: Like sending somebody to a bar to be like, do you need a job?
12:06
SPEAKER_00: That's crazy.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: Especially in the backdrop that we're hearing of,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: like the job market is total trash and it's impossible to find a job.
12:12
Yeah,
12:13
but I do like,
12:14
do you remember we did a follow up recording of our live happy
12:18
hour event?
12:20
and one of the things that we were talking about is that we are
12:22
all recruiters like
12:23
everyone at every level should be recruiting and looking for a
12:28
talent at any
12:29
opportunity so it's yeah it's interesting to me that that's
12:32
that it's the same
12:33
thing in British Columbia like that there's a definite shortage
12:36
of skilled labor
12:37
and construction as well and all the construction projects are
12:40
just taking way
12:41
longer than anticipated because of that but one of the things
12:44
you mentioned when
12:44
you're talking about how much money is involved in these kinds
12:47
of projects how much
12:48
SPEAKER_01: funding there is
12:50
I it's making me think about I kind of bookmarking thoughts
12:54
about potential salary
12:55
when we if and when we get to the salary because I think that
13:00
that's an interesting
13:00
thing to know it's it's very common knowledge that there
13:03
there's a lot of funds
13:04
there's a lot of money so it'll be interesting to see and if
13:06
there's a shortage as
13:07
well what the salary is going to be for this role it should be
13:12
a very generous
13:13
salary will it be we've learned that that's usually not the
13:16
case so so I guess
13:18
SPEAKER_01: we'll find out
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:21
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's go into the next section.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: And this section,
13:24
I actually am going to read all of the bullet points because
13:28
they kind of tie into
13:29
SPEAKER_00: the themes that we've been talking about.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: So for the folks listening at home,
13:33
SPEAKER_00: these bullet points,
13:34
SPEAKER_00: like think to yourself,
13:36
SPEAKER_00: does this say scheduler?
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Does this say something else?
13:38
Because that's the general thrust of what we're going to get
13:40
into at this section.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: So responsibilities, and these are all bullet points.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: Lead day to day management of project scopes,
13:48
SPEAKER_00: ensuring alignment and contractual obligations,
13:51
SPEAKER_00: technical requirements,
13:52
SPEAKER_00: and schedule milestones.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: Coordinate with design,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: construction,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: commercial,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: and digital teams to support integrated planning and execution.
14:02
Develop and manage detailed project schedules,
14:05
budgets,
14:06
and reporting dashboards.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Facilitate stakeholder and subcontractor meetings to monitor progress,
14:13
SPEAKER_00: resolve issues,
14:14
SPEAKER_00: and ensure alignment on deliverables Manage change orders,
14:19
SPEAKER_00: risk registers,
14:20
and mitigation strategies to minimize project disruption Ensure
14:25
adherence to safety
14:26
SPEAKER_00: protocols,
14:27
SPEAKER_00: environmental compliance,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: and quality standards on site
14:32
Act as a key liaison with GTAA and that's Greater Toronto
14:36
Airport Authority.
14:37
That's the the organization that that administers Pearson
14:42
Airport on behalf of the
14:43
SPEAKER_00: federal government,
14:44
SPEAKER_00: which actually owns the land and the assets and everything.
14:47
Act as a key liaison with GTAA representatives and other
14:50
project partners for assigned scopes.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: Monitor construction productivity,
14:56
SPEAKER_00: track KPIs and report project health metrics to senior leadership.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Lead the development of project documentation,
15:04
SPEAKER_00: including status reports,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: closeout plans,
15:07
SPEAKER_00: and turnover to liberals.
15:09
And the last one is support a collaborative team environment
15:13
and mentor junior staff as needed.
15:16
SPEAKER_00: So that's the responsibilities section.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Quite a few bullet points in there.
15:22
SPEAKER_00: Did anything stand out?
15:23
SPEAKER_00: Like for me,
15:24
there's a little bit of a jumble of stuff in here where you're
15:26
thinking scheduler,
15:28
SPEAKER_00: project manager,
15:29
SPEAKER_00: something else,
15:30
SPEAKER_00: what's going on?
15:31
I think to me it's a project manager where where I'm stuck
15:34
again I go back to
15:34
thinking that they must have put the wrong title or or
15:37
something on the job posting
15:40
I think it's a project manager a lot of it aligns with what I
15:43
would expect for a
15:44
project manager it's the the kind of like responsibilities are
15:48
going to be the same
15:50
SPEAKER_01: really it doesn't matter what the sector
15:53
is what the industry is project management is project
15:56
management and to me I feel
15:57
like there is alignment what's interesting is um again without
16:02
knowing the
16:02
reporting structure remember it says you report to your manager
16:06
which is just
16:07
hilarious to me um and uh I I just wonder the level of it seems
16:15
like a high level
16:15
of accountability and so without knowing who the manager is
16:18
it's it's tough to
16:19
SPEAKER_01: understand like
16:21
SPEAKER_01: where the authority lies for this stuff.
16:24
SPEAKER_01: You're the key liaison for the GTAA.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Who is your manager?
16:30
SPEAKER_01: Are they not there?
16:31
SPEAKER_01: As a project manager, that's interesting to me.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: There's junior staff as well.
16:35
So I just need to know the reporting structure because I need
16:37
to know who is
16:38
SPEAKER_01: responsible for what.
16:40
It would be interesting to know what a RACI chart would look
16:43
like for this role.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: And again, without the reporting manager, I don't know.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
16:49
It feels like a lot of responsibility for this project manager
16:53
and a lot of high
16:54
SPEAKER_01: stakes responsibility.
16:56
not just making sure that this project goes from like beginning
17:01
to completion but a
17:03
lot of high stakes responsibilities involved which again brings
17:06
me back to
17:07
compensation where it keeps it keeps taking me in that
17:10
direction of it should be it
17:12
should be quite high compensation but what what seemed jumbled
17:16
to you what stood
17:17
SPEAKER_01: out to you for the responsibilities
17:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: everything that you said,
17:20
especially with the backdrop that this is a multi-billion
17:24
dollar investment and
17:26
SPEAKER_00: project,
17:27
SPEAKER_00: right?
17:28
SPEAKER_00: So,
17:28
SPEAKER_00: like,
17:30
SPEAKER_00: you're going to liaise with senior leadership at GTA because,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
17:35
SPEAKER_00: of course you're liaising with senior leadership.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Like,
17:38
SPEAKER_00: it's not like you're going to walk into GTA and be like,
17:40
SPEAKER_00: yo,
17:40
SPEAKER_00: can I talk to the baggage manager?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: What about the people who are running, like, the jet fuel tank?
17:45
SPEAKER_00: on the tarmac.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Let's talk to them about this construction.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: No,
17:48
you're going to be talking to executives in that organization
17:51
and updating them on
17:52
SPEAKER_00: progress and status and where friction points and barriers are.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: And to me, that does not seem like a scheduler's job.
18:00
a scheduler is very much and it should be at least in a project
18:05
this size a
18:06
scheduler should be very much focused on execution on balancing
18:11
resources and
18:12
allocating resources so that the project keeps on moving
18:14
forward because typically
18:16
SPEAKER_00: in contracts for projects like this there are financial penalties
18:22
for delays and their financial penalties for things that are
18:26
out of scope with the
18:27
project like things that are out of tolerance or whatever else
18:30
you specify in the
18:31
contract doesn't quite happen okay that'll be a 22 million
18:34
dollar penalty please
18:36
that stuff is common with like projects of this size so you
18:40
want your schedulers to
18:42
be like really in the weeds on making sure that doesn't happen
18:46
do you want them at
18:46
SPEAKER_00: lunch with somebody over at the airport having a boo no
18:52
SPEAKER_00: That's your boss's boss's job, probably.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: This is where it's confusing.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: So I have a question for you.
18:58
The job posting is confusing because it says scheduler,
19:02
but then it says project manager.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: In your opinion, in a hierarchy,
19:09
SPEAKER_01: Where does scheduler sit versus project manager?
19:13
Like it sounds like you're saying a scheduler is more like a
19:17
doer and the project
19:20
SPEAKER_01: manager is more like bleed in that kind of situation.
19:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
19:27
from what I gather from talking to friends and acquaintances
19:31
who work in this
19:31
SPEAKER_00: industry,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: schedulers roll up to PMs.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: So your PM is responsible for the P&L on the project.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: They're really the one doing like
19:41
the stakeholder engagement the management the internal
19:43
engagement with different
19:45
parts of the organization and the scheduler is just like making
19:48
sure that stuff
19:49
happens and getting the crews out you know to a particular
19:52
place on time making
19:53
sure that materials come in on time you know doing that type of
19:57
stuff so like the
19:59
the scheduler like they roll up to the PM that's that's how
20:02
it's really been
20:03
SPEAKER_00: described to me before but this
20:05
doesn't say that right like this this speaks to something
20:08
entirely different which
20:10
to your point like it kind of makes me think that there's a
20:14
there's a mislabeling
20:15
of this role title now was the scheduler part the mislabeled
20:19
part or was the
20:21
project manager part the mislabeled part and the role design is
20:25
just screwy don't
20:26
know but there are some more signals that we'll see that yeah
20:29
yeah let's tease it
20:30
SPEAKER_00: out for him
20:31
SPEAKER_01: Let's get into that.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting to me.
20:33
And this goes back to the whole point of why we do our show is
20:37
because who are you
20:40
SPEAKER_01: trying to attract?
20:41
You could be missing great candidates simply by having the
20:44
wrong title in the job posting.
20:47
SPEAKER_00: Especially on a job platform, right?
20:50
Like you go to LinkedIn or Indeed and you search for a
20:52
scheduler job and you see
20:54
SPEAKER_00: this and you're like,
20:54
SPEAKER_00: this ain't a scheduler job.
20:55
Or you go and search for a project manager job and this doesn't
20:58
come up because
20:59
SPEAKER_00: it's titled scheduler.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm looking forward to hearing more.
21:05
SPEAKER_00: So the next section is work conditions.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: And this one's very short.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: The position will be based at our offices in Mississauga,
21:12
SPEAKER_00: Ontario,
21:13
SPEAKER_00: with regular visits to the site office as required.
21:16
The position is five days per week with core hours of work
21:19
between approximately
21:21
SPEAKER_00: 8am and 5pm with one hour lunch or as agreed upon with your manager.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: All employees must complete a rake and criminal background check.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: And for the folks at home, rake is restricted area identity card check.
21:38
It's basically if you're going to work in a high security area
21:40
like an airport,
21:42
you've got to be able to pass the associated checks and make
21:46
sure that you're not
21:47
going to be a ne'er-do-ell and steal stuff or blow stuff up or
21:49
whatever else.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: It's a Canadian thing administered by CAATSA,
21:53
which is our organization that looks after airport security and
21:58
safety and whatnot.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Following this, we've got desired skills, knowledge and competencies.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: Bullet points, there's only a few of them.
22:07
seven plus years of project management experience on scale
22:12
infrastructure or
22:14
SPEAKER_00: vertical construction projects.
22:17
And I think that really should say in those two spaces,
22:21
but that's how it was written.
22:22
Next bullet point is post-secondary degree in engineering and
22:25
construction
22:26
SPEAKER_00: management,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: architecture,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: or a related fields.
22:30
Proven experience delivering projects in a high security or
22:33
aviation environments
22:34
SPEAKER_00: is strongly preferred.
22:35
excellent leadership communication and conflict resolution
22:38
skills strong knowledge
22:41
of construction contracts scheduling software and in brackets
22:44
they put Primavera P6
22:46
or MS project and project controls and the last bullet point
22:51
they have in here is
22:53
SPEAKER_00: PMP or equivalent certification is an asset and PMP is
22:59
SPEAKER_00: Project Management Professional.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: It's a professional designation that you can that you can earn.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: It's quite a thing to get your PMP.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: It's not like you go to a weekend course and spend six hours doing like,
23:11
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:11
SPEAKER_00: talk and talk stuff and you're done.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, PMP is multi-year.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: It's quite intense.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Does anything stand out there?
23:19
Like for me,
23:19
this is feeling much more like Project Manager,
23:22
what they've put in there.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: This is the project manager role.
23:27
SPEAKER_01: So when we go back to the earlier when you mentioned the hours,
23:30
eight to five with a one hour lunch or work something out with
23:34
your manager,
23:35
SPEAKER_01: I like that.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: I actually like the flexibility there.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: I think that needs to be seen and stated more so in job descriptions.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: That's a form of flexibility.
23:46
SPEAKER_01: And whether they realize it or not,
23:48
they're speaking to their organizational culture just by having
23:53
that one little
23:55
SPEAKER_01: sentence in there.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: Speaking of which,
23:58
there's a complete lack of any reflections of what the
24:02
organizational culture is
24:03
SPEAKER_01: going to be like there.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: There is no kind of like selling of the culture or the organization,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: but we'll save that for later.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: So I do like that.
24:11
I do like that they're stating that there is some flexibility
24:14
there within the
24:15
SPEAKER_01: working schedule,
24:16
SPEAKER_01: even if it's as small as that.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: they mentioned having a post-secondary degree they mentioned professional
24:23
designation and project management those are things too when I
24:26
go back to thinking
24:27
about the salary that are going to bring the salary level up
24:33
more and more but like
24:35
straight up like this is a project manager role so this is what
24:38
we thought right
24:39
SPEAKER_01: from the very beginning and I find that to be really interesting as well
24:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
24:46
PMP in particular is a signal that that salary is going to need
24:50
to be higher
24:51
SPEAKER_00: because salary is just a function of supply and demand.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
24:56
The fewer professionals there are with a given set of criteria
25:01
relative to the
25:02
SPEAKER_00: demand for them dictates the salary.
25:04
you know fewer people more openings higher salary more people
25:09
fewer openings lower
25:10
salary it's like there's a very basic economic correlation
25:14
there and PMP is one of
25:16
those things where it's very intense it's hard to get there are
25:19
fewer fewer of them
25:20
out there then you know project managers without a PMP so that
25:25
by its very nature
25:26
is going to mean that salaries got to be higher or else you're
25:28
not going to get a
25:29
SPEAKER_00: PMP
25:32
SPEAKER_00: Very last section in this job ad is about inclusion.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: I'll just read it verbatim here.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: It says,
25:40
company is an equal opportunity employer and is committed to
25:44
providing employment
25:45
SPEAKER_00: accommodation in accordance with the Ontario Human Rights Code and the
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act.
25:54
We're committed to providing an inclusive and barrier free
25:57
candidate experience and
25:58
SPEAKER_00: work environment.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: If you require accommodation to apply or if selected to participate in an
26:04
SPEAKER_00: assessment process,
26:06
SPEAKER_00: please advise human resources.
26:09
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't say how, but it says, please advise them.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: There's no email address or contact info about.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: No.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: So they don't want to accommodate you then?
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Like that in and of itself is not accommodating whatsoever.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
26:27
They want to put the words down that will keep them from
26:30
getting in trouble with
26:31
SPEAKER_00: someone who looks at this and says,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: oh,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: it's not compliant.
26:35
I'm going to complain to the Ministry of Labour who in 36
26:38
months might actually
26:40
SPEAKER_00: like contact them about it.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: And that's the whole job posting?
26:45
SPEAKER_00: That is the whole job posting.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: So there's no mention of benefits,
26:51
SPEAKER_01: there's no physical requirements,
26:55
SPEAKER_01: like you must be able to lift this,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: that,
26:57
SPEAKER_01: you must have no vehicle,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: anything like that.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: Nothing else, nothing else.
27:03
There's no AI declaration,
27:05
like we use AI,
27:06
we don't use AI,
27:07
this is how we use it.
27:09
SPEAKER_00: Nope.
27:11
SPEAKER_01: Paul, is there a salary listed?
27:13
SPEAKER_01: No.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: but that's illegal in Ontario.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: In Ontario it is illegal not to list a salary range for a job where the
27:26
organization has more than I think 25 people and this
27:31
organization absolutely has
27:33
SPEAKER_00: more than 25 people.
27:35
Now there might be some wiggle room in that because this is a
27:39
consortium that is
27:42
SPEAKER_00: working on federal land
27:46
SPEAKER_00: for what's essentially a federal government capital asset.
27:53
SPEAKER_00: Maybe this organization is regulated by federal law and not Ontario law,
27:58
SPEAKER_00: which would mean that they don't actually
28:01
have that requirement but it's still very sketchy to me to not
28:05
have a salary band
28:07
listed on a job ad like this especially where you're looking
28:11
for someone who is in
28:14
demand like you're looking for a PMP anybody who's a PMP who's
28:18
going out to look
28:18
for a new job especially in construction right now given the
28:22
labor shortage they're
28:24
SPEAKER_00: going to kind of look this over and be like
28:26
no salary okay there's 50 more here with a salary see you later
28:30
so no no salary but
28:32
no perks no benefits like a health care there there's
28:35
absolutely nothing going on
28:36
there and this is where I go back to EVP employee value
28:39
proposition what what on
28:42
earth would make someone like you just said want to join this
28:45
organization or apply
28:46
for this role I mean I'll always this is coming from a place of
28:49
privilege right
28:50
like sometimes you just have to apply for a job and that's
28:53
absolutely fine
28:55
but it is really one-sided it's very extractive here are all
28:59
the things that we
29:00
need from you and we are going to give you like literally
29:04
nothing back you're not
29:05
going to get any information we're going to hold all the cards
29:07
again indicative of
29:09
the company and the organizational culture everything you need
29:12
to know about the
29:13
culture is right there in that job posting it's going it's not
29:17
going to be a
29:17
SPEAKER_01: reciprocal relationship whatsoever
29:20
when you want information it's really hard to get that
29:24
information meaning total
29:26
lack of transparency probably like piss poor communication I'm
29:31
angry with this job
29:33
posting I'm very angry with them about this yeah I mean I have
29:38
lots to say but I
29:39
guess I need to read through the full thing first yeah the the
29:44
fact that there's no
29:45
SPEAKER_00: salary that kind of blows my mind a little bit however
29:50
you're not off the hook because I did look up the average
29:54
salaries for both of
29:56
these roles in Ontario in this industry what do you think that
30:01
this job is worth as
30:03
written I went from being angry at the job posting to being
30:07
angry with you for
30:10
those listening I hate guessing the salary I get it wrong all
30:14
the time because I
30:16
SPEAKER_01: just I just think that
30:19
folks are so heinously underpaid it's it's horrifying so I
30:25
always try I always make
30:27
it higher than it is and then I'm so disappointed um so what do
30:32
I think so this is
30:32
SPEAKER_01: in Ontario I'm not from Ontario I'm not that familiar with the region
30:38
um it's a project manager don't know who they report into so
30:42
say like again it
30:43
could be like project manager level two which would tell me a
30:47
little bit more
30:47
information about what to expect from the salary it could be
30:50
director of projects
30:52
it could be VP of blah blah blah right it it really you're
30:56
missing such key
30:56
information to try to figure out this kind of thing um this is
31:00
just me stalling as
31:01
SPEAKER_01: I try to think about as you do
31:03
Possibly be as I do,
31:05
I don't know,
31:06
Canadian dollars,
31:07
let's say it's 85 to 95.
31:17
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: of course we don't know what this company is offering,
31:22
SPEAKER_00: but you're pretty darn close for the average.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: So in Ontario, average salary for a construction scheduler
31:32
SPEAKER_00: is $81,900 to $85,000 per year.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: And that's from Randstad's salary book.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: The average salary of a construction project manager is $90,000.
31:47
225,000 per year so again that's like kind of supporting our
31:52
totem pole thing where
31:54
project managers a little higher on the totem pole than
31:56
schedulers right like
31:57
schedulers report into project managers in a lot of these
32:01
construction projects so
32:02
you're you're pretty close you're pretty close on the average
32:05
for sure this company
32:08
who knows and you know for the folks at home I'm the same I
32:12
tend to guess higher
32:14
than what the the posted salaries actually are I think Jen and
32:18
I are both optimists
32:19
about like a fairer and better world and we're continually
32:22
disappointed yeah we
32:29
SPEAKER_01: don't know what it is for this specific
32:31
SPEAKER_01: this specific organization.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: And we also don't know if this is a scheduler or a project manager.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's another piece of information that we don't have.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: based on what was in the job ad itself,
32:46
SPEAKER_00: I would lean more towards the meant project manager,
32:50
even if they are kind of talking about it a little bit like it
32:54
is a scheduler.
32:55
Like there are definitely a few bullet points in there and the
32:58
responsibilities
32:59
SPEAKER_00: that just say like,
33:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, construction scheduler for sure.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: But then rest of the job ad reads like a PM.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: So what are you going to do?
33:08
SPEAKER_01: This is it.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: I know we said that we weren't going to be looking at the chat,
33:11
but I looked at the chat and there's a really good point that's
33:14
made here.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: It feels as though it's being titled a scheduler,
33:21
even though the responsibilities are that of a project manager
33:24
so that they can pay
33:25
SPEAKER_01: a scheduler salary.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: That's what it feels like.
33:29
maybe just a mistake in the titling the more we've been doing
33:33
this show though the
33:34
more I'm like people be sneaky yeah and you know we we do not
33:40
name and shame on
33:41
this show having read the the original job ad before kind of
33:46
taking out the
33:47
SPEAKER_00: identifying information or whatnot some of the companies that are in this
33:51
SPEAKER_00: consortium
33:53
SPEAKER_00: have gotten into hot water in the past over labor practices.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: They are not squeaky clean, some of these companies.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: So probably, yeah, I know, construction, right, in Canada.
34:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, colorists go shocked at that.
34:09
SPEAKER_00: But that comment does hold some water because,
34:12
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
34:13
SPEAKER_00: that very well could be the tactic that they're kind of,
34:17
SPEAKER_00: like,
34:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to roll out here.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: I would be very interested to hear Celia's take on that.
34:24
I hope that she kind of reaches out to us again after listening
34:26
to the episode and
34:27
says like this and this and this and for sure that'd be really
34:29
interesting.
34:30
I think that I should maybe we should start like putting a
34:33
field in our form that
34:34
says like put in your contact information if you want to talk
34:38
further because
34:39
there's so many times we do this where someone sent in a job ad
34:42
and I'm like oh man
34:43
SPEAKER_00: I wish we could talk to them again.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah absolutely.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: So Celia, if you're out there and listening, hit us up.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: We got questions.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: All right, we are going to go into the intermission now.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: Just a short break while Jen reads through the job ad verbatim.
35:00
I'll have a little bit of a chit chat with the folks who are in
35:03
the chat room in
35:05
SPEAKER_00: our live studio audience here again.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for joining us.
35:08
We absolutely love that you're able to carve out some time and
35:11
come here while we
35:12
SPEAKER_00: record another episode of Roast the Post.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: So I'll be back in five,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: six,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: seven minutes,
35:16
SPEAKER_00: something like that,
35:17
and we will carry on to wrapping up the show and doing the job
35:21
ad scoring.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Welcome back.
35:35
So I had an opportunity to read through the job posting in full
35:39
because what we do
35:40
is like it would take forever to read through everything so we
35:43
just kind of bring
35:43
to each other highlighted points when it's our turn to host
35:46
there wasn't much
35:47
though that you left like you pretty much read through the job
35:51
posting and so now
35:54
it's time to give our scores I guess of how we rate the job
35:58
posting itself and then
35:59
SPEAKER_01: the job design
36:01
So there are two elements that we score in each job ad for the
36:05
folks at home.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: The first one is the job ad itself.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: How is the job ad written?
36:10
SPEAKER_00: Is it communicative?
36:11
SPEAKER_00: Does it explain what this role is all about?
36:14
SPEAKER_00: Is it easy to understand?
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Is it easy to read?
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Is it legible?
36:17
Does it contain all of the things that a job seeker would be
36:21
looking for as they're
36:22
evaluating this role and deciding whether or not they're going
36:25
to apply for it?
36:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's the first kind of scoring bucket.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: The second scoring bucket is the role design.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: As the role is kind of communicated or described in the job ad,
36:38
SPEAKER_00: does it seem like it's sustainable?
36:40
SPEAKER_00: Does it seem like it is well thought through?
36:43
SPEAKER_00: It's organized?
36:45
SPEAKER_00: Is there direction to it?
36:47
SPEAKER_00: Is there a sense of where this fits into the bigger picture?
36:51
SPEAKER_00: And is this a job, this role that someone will be able to actually
36:55
So Jen,
36:56
thinking about how the job ad itself was written,
36:59
what would you score this out of 10?
37:14
I'm mad at this job posting I don't know I think that you know
37:20
the title there's a
37:21
mismatch with the job title and the title in the job posting
37:24
itself when it says
37:26
the reporting structure it just says you report to your manager
37:30
like what what does
37:31
that even mean there's nothing that sells this job to the
37:37
candidate like and this
37:38
is what I'm so tired of I'm so tired of it just being like yes
37:41
yes you've got an
37:43
SPEAKER_01: employment contract and
37:44
you do your job and you get the pay but like what about your
37:47
organization is there
37:49
that makes me want to work there more and more we're seeing
37:52
people especially with
37:52
younger generations being drawn to mission driven organizations
37:56
right like you want
37:56
SPEAKER_01: to feel good about working there and so what what is it
38:00
it mentions a little bit what they're trying to do but like
38:02
then what so what what
38:04
does that mean um what are the benefits i i i want health
38:09
insurance what's the
38:11
vacation policy like is there professional development um any
38:15
kind of wellness
38:15
SPEAKER_01: initiatives there's
38:17
SPEAKER_01: Literally nothing listed,
38:21
SPEAKER_01: including the salary,
38:22
SPEAKER_01: which,
38:23
SPEAKER_01: as we mentioned,
38:24
SPEAKER_01: is illegal in the province of Ontario.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: There is no AI disclosure.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: So are you using AI?
38:32
SPEAKER_01: How is it being used?
38:33
SPEAKER_01: Are you using AI to rank candidates?
38:37
SPEAKER_01: What are you doing with our information?
38:39
SPEAKER_01: Being a Canadian job as well, there are specific privacy and data
38:47
rules that apply to the Indigenous population and Indigenous
38:52
peoples own their data.
38:54
And so there's nothing in there about that kind of,
38:57
again,
38:58
data protection.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: What happens to it?
38:59
SPEAKER_01: Can I access my data afterwards?
39:01
SPEAKER_01: So there's a whole lot of information missing here.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: And so,
39:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
39:07
SPEAKER_01: somebody put pen to paper,
39:08
so I'm going to throw them like a two out of ten because
39:12
somebody did something.
39:14
so I guess it's a again another participation ribbon but they
39:18
did it they did it
39:20
badly so that's kind of the the job at itself when we talk
39:24
about job design and
39:26
like you mentioned is it sustainable blah blah blah I don't
39:29
know there's not enough
39:30
information here I don't know who they're reporting to I have
39:35
no idea whether or
39:37
SPEAKER_01: not this role is
39:39
SPEAKER_01: sustainable because they don't know what kind of authority they have,
39:42
SPEAKER_01: what kind of decision-making influence they have,
39:44
SPEAKER_01: what kind of ownership is involved.
39:48
And you could actually mention this a million times already in
39:52
this episode alone,
39:54
you could give a lot of information by just explaining the
39:56
reporting structure.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: We rarely see reporting structure done properly in job postings.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know, I actually don't even
40:06
want to give a rating for job design because I feel like
40:08
there's just not enough
40:09
information there for the job design itself if you force me to
40:13
let's just do a pair
40:15
SPEAKER_01: and do two out of ten for both but but otherwise there's just not enough
40:20
information there it's a fully extractive job ad and it's like
40:25
ruining my weekend
40:27
just kidding it's just ruining the next couple of minutes
40:30
deuces wild in honor of
40:32
SPEAKER_00: Pearson Airport's missing terminal 2
40:34
SPEAKER_01: There you go.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Just bringing it full circle.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: That's a callback.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Good one.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: I'm not far off.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: So for this one, the job ad itself, I would give it a three.
40:49
And the three is really based solely on the points that they
40:53
get for not having
40:57
SPEAKER_00: grammatical errors or missing commas or stuff like that.
41:01
And it's kind of a sad commentary on the state of the job ad
41:06
landscape when that is so uncommon.
41:11
SPEAKER_00: that when I see a well-written,
41:13
SPEAKER_00: well-written,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: structural job ad,
41:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm like,
41:16
SPEAKER_00: ooh,
41:17
SPEAKER_00: you didn't miss any commas.
41:19
SPEAKER_00: You used the Oxford comma properly in there.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: Like, bonus points for you.
41:23
SPEAKER_00: But that's really the only redeeming thing about the job ad itself.
41:26
Like,
41:26
the way that the job ad is kind of communicating to potential
41:31
candidates.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's not a lot there.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: for them.
41:36
SPEAKER_00: There's that confusion over, is this a schedule job?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Is it a PM job?
41:41
SPEAKER_00: Like what's going on here?
41:44
SPEAKER_00: We really don't know.
41:46
SPEAKER_00: They're missing the salary range.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: And if this is, you know, regulated in Ontario, yeah, it's legal.
41:52
They could be fined and it's not a small fine for repeat
41:55
offenses for something like this.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: If it's federally regulated, okay, they don't have to, they still should.
42:02
SPEAKER_00: They should,
42:03
SPEAKER_00: like we've said before on the show,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:05
SPEAKER_00: don't wait until you have to do something to start doing it.
42:09
SPEAKER_00: If the labor market is shifting in that direction, you better keep up.
42:14
And if you're on the early end of the curve,
42:16
it pays back benefits for your organization.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, get it done.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Like, why not?
42:22
SPEAKER_00: You know what you're going to pay this role.
42:25
One thing for me that was also kind of missing from the job ad
42:28
is end date.
42:30
Right like this is a full-time job and I get that this can't be
42:33
a full-time
42:34
permanent job because this consortium is only going to be
42:37
around for the for the
42:39
life of the the infrastructure construction projects which
42:44
honestly will be a
42:46
decade probably but you still can't say it's a permanent job
42:50
but you could say you
42:51
SPEAKER_00: know this job will be permanent in so far as projects are underway
42:59
SPEAKER_00: and this job will be made redundant within a year.
43:04
of construction wrap up you know you could give the job seeker
43:08
some sense of that
43:09
because as it's written right now you don't know if you've got
43:12
a job for two years
43:14
three years four years five years or six weeks you got no clue
43:17
you know maybe this
43:18
job ad is reporting into this position is reporting into a
43:22
group that is highly
43:23
temporary in nature maybe it's not going to be around for very
43:26
long and you're
43:28
wasting everybody's time if you're just kind of thinking to
43:30
yourself oh we can talk
43:32
SPEAKER_00: about that in the interview
43:33
you're wasting everybody's time because people who wouldn't
43:36
screen in for that job
43:37
if you put it in the job ad are going to screen in and you
43:40
might have to talk to
43:41
them especially if you're looking for a PMP that's pretty rare
43:45
right not a lot of
43:45
them out there very very difficult to do your PMP job ad
43:50
structure role design um
43:51
you know we talked about the job ad structure and whatever the
43:56
role design is also
43:58
SPEAKER_00: a bit of a cluster for me this one um I would give this a one
44:02
which is pretty close to the lowest that I've ever ranked role
44:08
design and the
44:10
reason that I did that was because even though we can kind of
44:15
ask ourselves was
44:16
this just simply mistitled and somebody meant to put scheduler
44:20
where they put
44:20
project manager or vice versa the responsibilities that are
44:24
listed in the role
44:25
SPEAKER_00: design are both
44:27
SPEAKER_00: You know,
44:28
there are there are facets of both roles mixed into this role
44:34
in not a way that
44:35
SPEAKER_00: makes a lot of sense.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: for an organization of this size, for a project of this size.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: Anyway,
44:41
SPEAKER_00: if this was a very small construction company,
44:43
if this was a construction company that was digging ditches or
44:48
something along a
44:49
SPEAKER_00: highway,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: sure,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: this would make total sense.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: But this is a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project.
44:56
So taking those two roles,
44:58
scheduler and PM,
44:59
and squeezing them together makes no sense to me.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: And it's unacceptable.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Even people who are looking at this job are going to be like,
45:06
SPEAKER_00: What the flying airplane is going on with this?
45:10
SPEAKER_00: I just do not know.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, one out of ten.
45:13
SPEAKER_00: Companies that are this big with this much experience in construction,
45:16
SPEAKER_00: and again,
45:17
SPEAKER_00: we don't name and shame,
45:18
but the companies that are in this bidding consortium have been
45:21
around for a very
45:23
SPEAKER_00: long time.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: They should have their sh** together.
45:26
SPEAKER_01: But that's the problem.
45:28
that's the problem is that they don't care they are treating
45:30
people as just like
45:33
resources that they can oh you don't like it we'll find they
45:35
will find the thing is
45:36
they will find someone they will find someone to do this job
45:39
right and then extract
45:40
everything they can from them I'm also curious when we like
45:43
this the lack of salary
45:44
thing I wonder if when you click apply and I feel like the
45:49
answer is probably yes
45:50
SPEAKER_01: but that's just a major assumption
45:52
whether or not they'll say desired salary there will be a
45:55
section that's like
45:55
desired salary because you said like they you know what you're
45:58
going to pay them
45:59
maybe they don't right maybe what they're going to pay them is
46:01
based on what the
46:02
responses are in that desired salary box and then they're like
46:06
lower the better
46:07
right like they're making the candidates do the work for them
46:11
and I find that just
46:12
SPEAKER_01: infuriating and again big assumption that that's what they're doing
46:16
um but often you do see when they don't have a salary listed
46:19
that they're going to
46:20
get that information from you just another extraction technique
46:23
so yeah i mean even
46:25
even more infuriating that uh you know if that is the case and
46:29
if they're saying
46:30
we'll make the candidates do the work for us on the salary um
46:34
it's even more
46:35
SPEAKER_00: infuriating because i found the average pay bands in this
46:38
SPEAKER_00: this province in Ontario in about like 22 seconds.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't look at the AI overviews either.
46:46
Like the second search listing was on a research company that
46:52
does this sort of
46:53
SPEAKER_00: stuff that comes up with salary and pay bands and whatnot.
46:55
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, in Ontario, this one is blah, blah, blah.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: This one is blah, blah, blah.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: It's right there.
47:01
SPEAKER_00: 20 seconds.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: Come on.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:04
SPEAKER_01: It's because they don't care.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: They do not care.
47:08
Well,
47:09
I think that we can consider this job ad roasted,
47:13
absolutely barbecued.
47:16
SPEAKER_00: The flamethrower got put on this one.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: This job ad sucked and they should be ashamed of themselves.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much,
47:23
SPEAKER_00: Celia,
47:23
for sending it in because I feel like it's been a little while
47:27
since we've properly
47:28
SPEAKER_00: torched a job ad that sucked.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: We've been looking at some ones that were pretty good recently.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: So we're back to our roots.
47:33
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
47:36
SPEAKER_00: We'll see you all next week.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Bye everyone, thank you.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: Follow that link in the show notes for more.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for listening.
48:12
Catch us next time when we take on another posting that
48:14
definitely has something to say.