Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / Solving the Literacy Puzzle with Norene Bunt — Practical Strategies for Integrating the Science of Reading Into Classroom Instruction
Transcript
- Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everybody. You are listening to the Authority Podcast here on the Bee Podcast Network. For those of you who have been with us before, thanks as always for being here. Anybody who's new today, welcome. I'm glad to have you here for a great conversation that is part The National Literacy Month campaign we here at the Be Podcast Network are doing in partnership with Reading is Fundamental in which we're hosting a number of productive conversations across our network of podcasts about developing kids reading and literacy skills for life. We're addressing that from a number of different angles with a variety of experts, leaders and practitioners from all kinds of roles, talking about everything you can do. In your position. So my guest today is Dr. Noreen Bunt. [00:01:00] She is an author and former teacher, principal, curriculum coordinator, school improvement strategist, superintendent, who is an expert on best practices in literacy instruction and integrating the science of reading effectively and efficiently to support high levels of learning for all students. She has a book called Solving the Literacy Puzzle. Practical Strategies for Integrating the Science of Reading into Classroom Instruction. It's going to be a rich text for our discussion today, and I'm pleased to welcome her now. Noreen, welcome to the show. Norene Bunt: thank you, Ross. I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this podcast today with you. Ross Romano: Yes, I'm glad to have you here. And so something we're talking about in some of these episodes, but it never hurts to reinforce some of the context for listeners. What's happening right now, currently in the U. S. You know, how are our students generally performing in the areas of reading and proficiency? Norene Bunt: Okay, well, over the past number of years, especially the last 10 years, [00:02:00] we have been somewhat struggling in the area of literacy when compared to other countries. So, just to share a little bit of information with you about that, The PISA assessment, which is an assessment that's been given, or that is given to individuals 15 years and older, and they look at literacy rates for the students. This test is given in approximately 80 countries, and the U. S. combined literacy rate for males and females is currently 86. This is a little concerning because most developed nations consistently score at the rate of 96% or higher, whereas struggling countries that are less developed, the average literacy rate is 65%. And Pisa also found from [00:03:00] 2018 to 2022 a drop in performance that they really indicated was unprecedented. Reading was a 10 point drop and math was a 15 point drop, and this is from the National Literacy Institute. Researchers have stated that COVID played a role in this decrease. However, there are other underlying factors that are also contributors. to the decline. And looking at just the national scores through the National Assessment of Educational Progress or NAEP of 2019, we found that 35 percent of our 4th grade students scored at or above the proficient range. which was slightly lower than in 2017. So this really creates challenges for our country in being competitive within a global society. Ross Romano: Yeah. What are in are [00:04:00] there additional you rent Americans COVID? But it, of course, stands out that, you know, The U. S. stands in contrast to other more economically similar countries, right, as far as the, the lower proficiency rates compared to what other countries are experiencing, and That's really the majority of what our conversations are focused on is the US reading is fundamental being the largest children's literacy profit in the country. Are there other factors that are standing out? Because even, even as you mentioned COVID, and of course, you know, every country experienced that a little bit differently, but that was a global pandemic. So, even when it comes to a factor like that, it doesn't necessarily explain why the US is. is you know, performing as it is in comparison or in contrast to other nations. Norene Bunt: Right. Well, just a little bit [00:05:00] more about this data just to kind of lead into that. So, NAEP also found between 2019 and 2022 that 22 states showed no significant change and 30 of our states showed decreases in reading scores. in 2022, only 33 percent of grade of grade four students scored above or at the proficiency level and a bigger concern possibly is 50 percent of Hispanic students did not reach benchmarks and 56 percent of black students did not reach benchmarks. So, you know, the data is pretty startling. I have a philosophy that there are four. factors that truly are impacting this decline in literacy. The first one being the swinging pendulum of philosophy, philosophies, and pedagogies. So until the mid 1950s, [00:06:00] you know, just your basic readers such as the Sally, Dick, and Jane series, basal readers, and others of their kind really accounted for the reading curriculum used in most schools. And that was for over 30 years. Well, then in the 1970s, reading instruction really started to become a constantly changing entity. So during the 1960s, basal programs came under attack because of the lack of systemic instruction in phonics and the quest to use authentic literature. Then in the 1980s, A literature based approach became the method to use for instruction, and then followed by the whole language philosophy. In the mid 1990s, guided reading came into the mix, where students received instruction in small groups based on their levels of reading development. And more recently, a balanced approach, which includes literature based instruction, [00:07:00] along with a traditional basal reader, has been used in many schools. And then in the 1990s, the daily cafe model, where students spend time in rotations each day, where they read to themselves, they read to a buddy, they work on writing, they do word work, and they listen to reading, became very highly used. And so, I believe that these pendulum swings, along with the changes in philosophies about reading instruction, have led teachers to be uncertain. about what effective reading instruction should really look like. So that's one of the major factors that I feel has led to our decline in reading proficiency. (ad here) Ross Romano: Yeah. One of the things that your book does is consolidate decades of research on effective literacy instruction. I think that really speaks to even a lot of what you just [00:08:00] Talked about with pendulum swings is that the volume research out there can feel overwhelming to an individual teacher. And also the weight of all that history, right. Of, of knowing what the data is and has been historically and understanding that reading proficiency is, isn't where they want it to be and understanding that there's been a lot of back and forth about what constitutes reading instruction. And yet. None of that really is, should be all that relevant to one individual teacher, as far as what they can know, can understand, can do in their classroom. But, you know, that overwhelm when there's a lack of clarity or a lack of practicality. can certainly be affecting them. What are some of the key things to understand in the way that you consolidated it, distilled it, and try to communicate it to make it more digestible and practical and to kind of say to teachers, look, here's basically what you need to know, right? And all the [00:09:00] other stuff, maybe don't get hung up on it. Let's, let's think about what we can do. Yeah, go Norene Bunt: well, we need to look back ~in the,~ in the 70s, 60s and 70s, the reading instruction was basically based on basal readers, like we talked about, and the basal readers were comprehensive. They included phonics, they included comprehension vocabulary. Fluency, lots of discussion of text and skills and writing. And so we know that that is sound literacy instruction. And then in the early 2000s, the National Reading Panel did extensive research and determined that comprehensive reading instruction needs to be, or needs to include phonics, phonemic awareness, vocabulary, comprehension, fluency, and writing. And then again, with the science of reading, those same components come out, so we really need to take a look at our instruction and is [00:10:00] it comprehensive and does it, you know, address all of the components of the science of reading? I do have some other factors that I don't know if, you know, you'd like to talk about now, but, but I really believe have also impacted the quality of our literacy instruction. Okay, so the first one, of course, was what we just talked about, the pendulum swings. I believe another major factor is our use of literacy instructional time and what we focus on during that time. So, back in the 60s and 70s, like we talked about, the BASEL had a very comprehensive program for reading instruction. Educators typically went through the BASEL E1 each year. It included all those important components of literacy. And usually 60 to 90 minutes was spent on that holistic instruction, much of that in whole group, so that all students were receiving the same instruction. [00:11:00] Well, then in the 1990s and 2000s, we continued to use some whole group instruction and purchased curriculums, but we also got into more of the guided reading. And this is where we assess students to determine their reading level and then put them in small groups based on these levels. And more of that literacy block time was spent then in small groups, whereas the other students needed to be doing independent work. And then in the 2000s to 2010, small group instruction using leveled books was pretty much what we, what we have, you know, really done during that time. There's very limited whole group instruction, and teachers used leveled books and basically had to develop their own curriculum. Which was a lot of work and very time and labor intensive for the teachers. Today the common format for instruction in schools [00:12:00] is to have a whole group mini lesson, which is usually a phonics lesson, a vocabulary, or a read aloud. And that's about 20 percent of the instruction. And then small group instruction. Which is where they're in small group with the teacher one on one for 15, 20 minutes. That's about 17 percent of the time and then 50 percent of the time in many classrooms, are involved in rotations or independent work. And then 20 percent of the time is often spent on online reading programs or computer assisted learning. I feel like these factors. have limited our amount of time spent on quality whole group instruction. In addition, from 2010 to 2020, You know, we were trying to assess students and their readings. So we decided to do cold readings and hot readings and timing [00:13:00] students for how many words per minute they could read. And that really became a main focus of reading instruction, just trying to get those kids to meet their words per minute benchmarks on their three times a year assessments. So fluency became a main goal and a main focus, which really left out many of the other important components. Ross Romano: Yeah, and I guess my next question on this would be why? If there's practices that were known to be effective 60 years ago and the evidence has not changed over time, we still have clear evidence that those practices continue to be effective. Why did we get away from them? Why has there been so much change and lack of consistency? Norene Bunt: I think the two main reasons for that is teachers want to do the very, very best that they can, [00:14:00] and they put a lot of work and emphasis on helping their students to become strategic and successful readers. So, if someone comes along, a researcher comes along and says, Hey, let's quit using these basils. These are not authentic literature. We need to have more focus on. on Authentic Literature and Phonics. So teachers are going to switch their instruction to what their hearing is going to work better. However, it may not end up working better. And I think the second reason is for the assessment piece, because the easiest way to assess students proficiency in reading is to use a timed reading and count the correct words per minute. However, you are only assessing fluency. So we're not assessing their vocabulary knowledge, their comprehension, or any of that. So it was almost a, this is easier factor. And I [00:15:00] also think that teachers kind of liked the idea of the small group reading, and of having students work independently or with partners. However, the activities that students do during their literacy stations or rotations are often really disconnected and do not provide comprehensive reading instruction. So it's just really limited the amount of time in many classrooms where teachers have quality whole group instruction each day. So I think just between, you know, the research and kind of the pressure to try these other Methodologies and just the ease, I guess you might say, of the assessment and having the small groups and rotations, I feel would be the major reasons that we've gone that route. Ross Romano: Yeah. How do, how do like reading skills develop in students? I mean, is it a, really a linear progression? Sometimes, you know, [00:16:00] do different learners take a different pathway to development skills or are there some, some that are. Seemingly spontaneous. I'm curious about that because as, you know, of course, as we're in the, especially the era now of, of digital tools for assessment and personalization, et cetera, that there's a lot of emphasis, of course, put on being able to intervene in real time or being able to differentiate or personalize for students based on where they are. And I'm curious if sometimes some of it almost may be. Unnecessarily pressured that that we change our strategies and tactics to try to account for a student that seems a little bit behind right now, but that they may progress. you know, at the next phase much more rapidly and may catch up if we just stick to what we know works.[00:17:00] But I don't know. I don't know if that's true at all. But it would seem to me that that could happen in certain times because in all areas of life, right, the digital world has, I think, increased a lot of pressure. to be able to adapt things. And and that could be one way potentially to get away from staying the course. We know these practices work, and if we stick with them, we're confident that they'll see us through. Let's not, you know, let's not react too quickly before we really know that something's not working. Norene Bunt: Right? Well, you know, most students. will learn to read successfully with quality whole group instruction with that's focused on the science of reading that's focused on the all of those components. We started to think every child needed to have small group instruction and that has been very detrimental, I believe, to the [00:18:00] instruction and to the students. Putting students in lower level or grade level below grade level texts, you know, them at a disadvantage because they're going to be tested using grade level text. And when we put them in a lower level of text, even though we don't mean to, we often have lower expectations for them due to their perceived levels of ability. And research has shown from Wilson and from Sparks those are a couple of the researchers, that this tracking or ability grouping can actually exacerbate achievement gaps. And slow reading group growth, excuse me, for some children. So, to me, a major change that we could make. that would be positively impactful on many, many students would be to get back to using a solid comprehensive reading program. Doesn't necessarily have to be a BASEL, but something where, you know, it's research [00:19:00] based and all the components are included and teachers aren't developing their own curriculum. And every student has the opportunity to participate in that High quality research based instruction. Then, for those students that do struggle, which typically should only be at the most 20%, And that could be because of their cognitive abilities. It could be because of their language and things like that, but they need some intervention time and they need to have some small group time. But our philosophy of not having very much whole group instruction and doing small groups for every student has just been not only a huge amount of work and pressure for teachers, but also not beneficial for our students. Ross Romano: Yeah, I mean, and certainly the research into the science of reading. is [00:20:00] a basis for utilizing those practices, but also familiarity with that and the ability to distill and communicate that can be used as a justification for sticking with those practices to audiences who are placing pressure on teachers, whether that be parents, community, you know, even administration, right? And it would seem like one of the ways to remove some of the barriers or the factors inhibiting some of these practices from being used as a consensus would be clear buy in and guidance from administration on the way it should be taught but also You know, utilizing that to communicate why these practices are being used, even when it might seem unclear to some stakeholders, because nobody wants to see a student struggling, and [00:21:00] there's a lot of pressure, I think, when we know that a student's struggling to do something, which might mean, okay, I had to do something different than what I think is going to work, because I just have to show that I'm making an effort, even if, you know, All of that isn't necessarily changing outcomes or, and, but also you know, as you said, that, that outcomes can be long term worse if we are introducing texts that are less challenging, right, that there, there is room for productive struggle and being able to ascertain what's productive and what's not productive is, is important. But to say, look, if we stick with things that right now are more challenging that we can get there. But, you know, but it seems like it, I mean, it really requires some stronger leadership in these areas to make that happen. And also to break through some of the areas where this approach [00:22:00] compared to some alternatives, in a sense, may be a little, you know, Like, it's fundamentals. It's vocabulary, phonemes, and comprehension, and it's sticking to the basics, and, but you have to develop those basics before you can build on them but that requires consistency and, you know, and diligence to stay the course, where I think it's easy to be distracted by other things that, that may skip some steps. Thanks. But, you know, it doesn't work if we rely on each individual to figure that out for themselves. There needs to be more of an approach at the, at the institutional level. Norene Bunt: Right, right. And, you know, we kind of forget that one of the very core parts of the Every Student Succeeds Act, or ESSA, is that all students are engaged in research based universal instruction. And this is so that we have [00:23:00] equity in learning opportunities. You know, as a parent, if I were told, Well, your student's not in the grade level text. Your student's in this level because we think the grade level text's too hard for him or her. That should not be okay. You know, we need to have quality core instruction for every student, and if we have this universal research based instruction and implement it with a high degree of integrity, most students will achieve proficiency on grade level assessments, and they'll all receive high quality instruction. not being placed in lower ability groups that are going to hinder them. So I think we need to remember that that's a big part of that act, which is in place to increase our reading proficiency. Teachers will kind of struggle. Some teachers will struggle with the idea of using Whole group instruction with a grade level text, but I think [00:24:00] when you think about the benefits of this, it's so important. Trying to introduce a skill or concept in several various small group settings is really cumbersome and repetitive for teachers. Plus the time is so limited that you can't go into depth on anything. So whole group instruction is much more time efficient. and make sure that every student is exposed to those grade level concepts. So whole group instructional time needs to be increased in most classrooms where all students are receiving that explicit instruction in those grade appropriate skills and strategies. including students with their English language learners, students that have goals for reading in their IEPs, they are going to benefit from being involved in whole group instruction. And when you talk about it being kind of repetitive or boring or whatever. There are so many ways to make [00:25:00] instruction exciting and engaging for the students. With vocabulary instruction, you can have students engaged with a partner doing graphic organizers. You can have students in small groups planning to be the expert on the word and they have to come up and teach it. There's just many ways to make things engaging. So I think that we need to just be creative with how we teach those. One of the Ross Romano: as part of this, you know, in addition to presenting practical steps I think we also want to make sure that any teachers listening, you know, are feeling confident and feeling good about their practice. Are there some common practices that you believe most teachers are using that they might, they might not know them as or realize that they're consistent with the science of reading [00:26:00] but it's things they're likely already doing that they can Kind of place in that context and start to understand, okay, you know, here's some of the good things I'm probably already doing. And now that's, those are things to build from. Norene Bunt: biggest trends I guess you might say in literacy instruction is to use the read aloud strategy where the teacher reads text aloud to the students and models using vocabulary and comprehension strategies. So models what an expert reader or a strategic reader would do. The problem that I'm seeing there, and I'm witnessing this very frequently as I go out and supervise student teachers and observe in classrooms, is that teachers are doing a read aloud, but then that's where they stop, and they're not moving forward to having the students practice it, that strategy or skill, and [00:27:00] apply it. So, just making that change from using a read aloud in a modeling type of format to application, to practice an application on the part of the students, which is not difficult to do at all, and that can just increase the efficacy of, of literacy instruction in itself. Ross Romano: Are there one or two clear, you know, straightforward practices that come to mind that you would say, eliminate? Make sure, don't do this anymore. It doesn't work. Norene Bunt: Well, sadly to say, but in most classrooms, especially, you know, in elementary where I've been observing a lot, there's very, very little instruction on vocabulary. very little comprehension, actual instruction and practice for the students and application. You know, those are just big areas that we need to concentrate on. Also, the [00:28:00] discussion of text has become very, very limited. And that's where a lot of that learning comes from, is having discussions in whole groups and small groups about the text and creating comprehension through those discussions. So, you know, those are some things we really want to concentrate on. Also, we need to look at the research on independent reading, because having students read independently for anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes, is really not supported by, by research as being very effective. So we need to take a look at that. In one classroom that I've recently observed, the teacher does a read aloud for about 15 or 20 minutes, where she's modeling a reading strategy, and then the students read, Their own books of choice for about 45 minutes. That's very, very limited instruction for [00:29:00] students. Ross Romano: I realize I should have had a chance to make this more explicit earlier, but is there a particular grade level range that you're mostly addressing? Norene Bunt: It would mostly be a K through six, but definitely all of the components need to be addressed, you know, all the way through high school, just in more complex ways. Ross Romano: Yeah, I guess, especially when you referenced. explicit vocabulary instruction. It would seem that toward the later part of that range, and then certainly into secondary, right, that that's really not happening at all. And at that point, if you are a proficient reader, then you can expand your vocabulary through reading, through, you know, seeing things in context, or looking up a particular word that you don't know. But if you haven't developed the other proficiencies around that, or if you're gaps in vocabulary are too great, right? That you're not able to make [00:30:00] sense of things. There's an opportunity to say, look, this is something we teach in earlier grades, and then we just stop. And why do we stop? And there still is a lot of benefit to, to enhanced vocabulary at all ages. Norene Bunt: Oh, for sure. You know, high school, junior high and high school students need to be involved in vocabulary work and they need to be involved in lots of text discussion. They can do they can create the thick questions to ask during the discussion. They can be independent in leading their discussions. They take out a lot more engagement and ownership of their learning when they're involved discussing text and that just doesn't happen as often as I think, you know, it probably could. Ross Romano: what should schools be doing and encouraging students to, to be doing in their reading development outside of class time, whether it's [00:31:00] homework, independent, et cetera, what, what is effective during those times? Norene Bunt: So this would be when they're having independent work time. Ross Romano: Independent work time or homework or things they can be doing at home, et cetera. But, you know, the times outside of instruction. Norene Bunt: Okay. Ross Romano: if there's things that are better uses of that time, more effective or enhancing to say, look, you know, here's, here's what we recommend doing at home with parents or, you know, I think it can be independent or it can be that there's a variety of things, but there's a lot of time outside of that limited instructional time, as you referenced, that we still want students to be developed, but we don't want them to be spending their time on things that aren't really helping them because We want them to be successful, right? And, and reading is certainly is the kind of thing that if we have, we're asking kids to do [00:32:00] things that they're not ready to do or that they don't feel like they can do then it's going to lead to disengagement and then it's going to make it that much harder. And yet it's not like, It's probably going to work best to say don't do anything outside of the class, right? Norene Bunt: Yeah. So I think that any work that students do either independently, as homework, or with a buddy during rotational time, whatever, needs to be directly connected to the whole group skills and strategies to make it meaningful. So, let's say that you've introduced a story or a novel, you've maybe read a little bit with the students, assign them the next part. or assign them to a finished story. So take that instructional text and have them work on it independently. They also should work with vocabulary. They can do graphic organizers. They can do [00:33:00] word sorts together. They can do vocabulary matching games. There's lots of things they can do to practice and get those multiple exposures to the words. They also should practice their sight words, because if students know the first 100 words, that are most common, they're going to be able to read about 50 percent of text. If they learn the 300 most commonly used words, they'll be able to read up to 75 percent of text. So that's just so important. They can also work on their comprehension strategy that you have taught them in whole group. So perhaps it was summarizing. You know, have them work on a summarizing graphic organizer, have them work on a one paragraph summary of chapter five, or work on a characterization essay about a character. So bring in that comprehension and that writing to what they're [00:34:00] doing. They can work on fluency. They can do some reading, reading and rereading, and they can practice to be an expert reader of a certain poem or part of the text. So there's many, many things that they can do outside of working with the teacher that can be engaging and meaningful. Preparing for a discussion circle or a discussion protocol is another way that they can be involved with applying those skills and strategies. Ross Romano: And discussion is one of the things that's unique to the classroom environment that can happen in that setting at a, at scale at least. What, like, what should classroom discussion look like according to the science of reading? Norene Bunt: Okay, so classroom discussion needs to be focused around a common text so that everyone's got that same context that they're talking about. This could be the instructional text used for whole group, or it could be [00:35:00] stories or novels that they're doing in small groups. But they need to be discussing thick questions, which means higher order questions. Questions that can't be answered with one word, can't be answered yes or no. Questions where they have to explain or give examples of what they're talking about. Pre planning thick questions is just key to having good, rich discussions. And I suggest you start out with the teacher planning these questions and teaching the students how to actively engage in productive conversation about the text, but then move that to the students. Once we taught them and modeled how to ask these thinking questions, they could do that, and then they could take more and more ownership and leadership of the classroom discussions, which can be very engaging and very rich. Ross Romano: So as we are getting toward the end of our conversation here, let's, let's [00:36:00] even get hyper practical. So, But, you know, as, as educators are listening to the conversation, especially if they're listening to it when it's recently published, the school year will have started and then they're already in the middle of teaching. And so there it's not necessarily time to overhaul everything, but what is at least one practice that you would say, look, you can definitely start this right away, start trying this and then what should. a teacher look for as evidence that it's working and kind of keep an eye on. Norene Bunt: So I think. Like I talked about before, the biggest change that's going to have a huge impact is going to be teaching with a grade level text. And it does not have to be a basal, but it could be a novel, it could be stories, something that's grade level appropriate and of interest to the students. And all of the students need to have hands on that text. So they need to have a [00:37:00] copy of the story, the book, the novel in their hands. And then the whole group instruction needs to focus on Those components we talked about. Introduce important words. So the vocabulary part. Talking about a comprehension strategy and helping students learn how to apply that. Involving students in writing, especially in response to literature. So those kind of small changes, I think would be very, very impactful and you need to provide those interventions for those 10 to 20 percent of students that need support. For teachers who are struggling with the idea of putting students in grade level text, there are some practices that can be really helpful in preparing students to be successful with grade level text. And I'd like to talk about those just for a minute. Again, remember we talked about if the students know the most commonly used words, they're [00:38:00] already going to be able to read at least 50 percent of the text successfully. So a really good practice is to look through the text and decide what tricky words students need to learn about before they read. So teaching those words, modeling how to figure out what they mean modeling how to use them in a sentence to clarify their meaning, modeling how to use context clues to figure out what they mean, and then reading those words together several times. So preparing them for that complex or challenging text by discussing and working on those tricky words. Another really good way to help them be successful with grade level text is to pull out some challenging sentences from the text that they're going to read and practice those together. know, put them on sentence strips or on the large screen, model reading them, have the students read them with you. Okay. This will prevent them from being [00:39:00] tripped up when they come to those challenging parts of the text. And then also providing background information on the content of the text, of course, is so important, especially if it's a complex topic or it's a unique setting or culture or time period, because the more they know about the topic, the easier it will be for them to read and comprehend. And then I think it's important to model reading part of the text, even with older students, Reading the first part of the chapter to them, reading the first couple pages of the story with them following along, and then have them assigned to continue reading the rest, and then whisper reading if they need support. So, in other words, an adult or a buddy is sitting next to them, and as they read, they can help them with, you know, the words that they are struggling with, and then having students read the text more than one time. That's a very good way for them to [00:40:00] get practice in vocabulary, in fluency, in comprehension, and just all those skills. So I think if we prepare our students to read a grade level text using these strategies, and then provide supportive interventions for those that really need it I think students are going to be much more successful and strategic readers. (ad here) Ross Romano: Absolutely. So, listeners, again, the book is called Solving the Literacy Puzzle. It's available from Solution Tree or wherever you get your books. We'll put the link to that below to make it easy for you. Noreen, is, are there any other resources or anything else you'd recommend listeners to check out if they're interested in this topic? Norene Bunt: Yeah I really enjoy Tim Shanahan's blog. It's ShanahanOnLiteracy. com, and most educators will have, will know Tim Shanahan by name. But he goes into discussions on all these different topics. Whole group versus small group instruction. [00:41:00] Independent reading, how much time should be spent on that. The importance of discussion of text. So that's just a wonderful resource. And then also Cindy Jaban from the Northwest Evaluation Association or AWE, NWEA. She has information about explaining the science of reading. And what a science of reading classroom looks like. And I would definitely recommend looking into that. And then, of course, Smoker with his book Focus from 2011 is still very, very good. Elevating the Essentials to Radically Improve Student Learning. That's through ASCD. And then he has a follow up book in 2019, How to Make Reading Instruction Much, Much More Efficient. And that is very helpful. It kind of confirms what I'm saying as well as, you know, going on to more of the how to's. Ross Romano: Well, we will link to those [00:42:00] resources below. A lot of valuable stuff there for anyone who wants to continue your learning around literacy and literacy instruction. We'll put those resources there. We will link to Noreen's book and also hope you will continue to engage with our podcast content here. in the month and all the fall really. We'll put that across the network. You can visit bpodcast. network to learn about all those shows. You can subscribe here to the authority and find a variety of episodes here. And if you're interested in getting involved with Reading is Fundamental, you can go to rif. org. There's a lot of free resources there. And if you're interested in getting involved in the campaign or donating and supporting their efforts, there's a lot there, so check all that out. We'll make it easy. We'll put it in the show notes. We'll give you the links. And we hope that this conversation is giving you a lot to think about and, and some things you can do to Noreen, thanks again for being here. Norene Bunt: You bet. Well, can I have just a closing comment here? Are we out of time? Okay, [00:43:00] so want all of our students to perform on grade level in our schools. And the only way we're going to be able to do that is to start with this philosophy of using grade level text with all students, using the science of reading and teaching those components, and then making it our goal that kindergarten and first grade students are all proficient when they leave those grade levels. We need to put lots and lots of energy into making sure that happens, and then teachers in second grade and beyond will have a more manageable range of abilities to teach and to plan for instruction. And as several researchers, including Schmoker, say, nearly all students, regardless of their family, ethnic, socioeconomic, or cultural backgrounds, have the ability to perform on grade level in K and first grade. Thank you. Unless they have significant cognitive disabilities, and they've determined that [00:44:00] virtually every student could be reading on grade level by the end of first grade. And I just think that that's very, very possible when we have that whole group research based comprehensive instruction for all students. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, that is a very optimistic note to lead on. And. Please, you know, think about that and apply that to all the conversations you're hearing throughout this month, that certainly there are some urgent challenges that we need to be vigilant in addressing and really think about the importance of this topic and, and how we approach reading instruction, literacy instruction, and just instilling that joy and love of reading as well. But also it can be done. So let's Think about that and, and hopefully continue this dialogue, this conversation. If there's things that stand out to you as a listener, send us a note, let us know what you'd like to hear more about. And we'll continue to cover those topics here on this show and across the network. And thank you all for joining us and [00:45:00] thanks Noreen for being here. Norene Bunt: Thank you very much.