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Tipping Point · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Please Tip Me host Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: And I am your twenty five percent host Shane.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and sometimes we
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: talk about the weird traditions that we have picked up
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: that nobody likes, but we do them anyway.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: And that, my friends, is tipping, you know, and we'll
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: talk about this, I'm sure, but I wonder if the
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: reason tipping is so aversive is because it's so confusing.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: That could be part of it. We'll talk a bit
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: about the reason that persists. But you know, one of
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: the things that people have never liked about it is
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: that you are paying for things twice. Sure, you get
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to pay for it, and then you get to pay
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: for that same thing again. You don't get any more,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: you just are. You're just paying more for the thing
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: that you already agree to a price for and are
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: now spending even more money than you thought you would. Right,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: There's a lot to unpack there, and we will get
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: into all of that. But if you are joining us
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: for the first time, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: We are happy to have you and we hope that
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: you enjoy what you hear in this discussion today. And
• 1:15
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• 1:18
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• 1:21
  Speaker 1: enjoy what you hear in this one and that you
• 1:22
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• 1:25
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  Speaker 1: rating and review, pick up some merchant or merch store,
• 1:39
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• 1:41
  Speaker 1: you can help. And I will describe more about these
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: ways of supporting us at the end of this discussion,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: but it wanted to get them out of the way
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: just so that in case you were jumping into this
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and you're like, I already like the cut of this, guys,
• 1:53
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• 1:55
  Speaker 1: ways you can do it. Love that before we even
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: jump into our main topic, we have to acknowledge that
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: it is July ninth and that is the Call of
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the Horizon day, so uh celebrates in whatever way it
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: makes sense to you.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's also Fashion Day, so there's that.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: We've talked about fashion a little bit on this show,
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: so not explicitly, I think in an episode, although kind
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: of I don't remember we did at some point. But yeah,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: it is Murderdom of the Bab Day. I honestly don't
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: know if I want to know more about that. I
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: just like the name of the day so much.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm going to leave it right there
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: and just we'll do with that what you will write
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: in and tell us what you think if you're celebrating.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: It's also National don't put all your eggs in one
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: omelet Day unless you only have one, or unless you
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: want a really big omelet.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Or that it is national no broad day, no comment
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: but fun.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, enjoy yourselves. It is a National sugar cookie Day. Delicious.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: It is Durian fruit Day. Delicious to some people.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's National dimples Day, cute to some people.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: So smile. It is Argentina's Independence Day.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I love that. It's Wimbledon. I guess if you like tennis.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Sure, it is a rabbit week. Those rabbit enthusiasts. I
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: love rabbits.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: They're cute, they're adorable. I had a friend who got
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: a rabbit and it clawed him up really bad, and
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: he was like, I didn't know rabbits could do that.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: And I was like, welcome to the world of rabbits,
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: my friend.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Butanicola, we'll drink.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. I'm saying now, Yeah, I had
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: a thirst for blood. It became a real problem f rohim.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: It's air conditioning Appreciation Days. As a Floridian, that is
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: every day for me.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say absolutely, that's particularly now be
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: nice to New Jersey. Week is the week it is
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: that they tell us at least.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I dress the pine bearns seem nice.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: That's as nice as I could go. All Right, it's
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: a dog days of summer.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: It is understandably. I guess Freedom Week because we are
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: very recently around probably this is why we're very recently
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: around the United States Independence Day. I guess that's why.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's also probably our last freedom week, so
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: you know, celebrate it why you can.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: We're eliminating it as much as humanly possible. In the
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: United States. So yes, yeah, yes, celebrate freedom while you're
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: free to celebrate freedom.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It is National Aborigines An Islanders Day
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: Observance Committee Week.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: That's a mouthful. That might be the longest day I've
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: ever seen on here.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so far. Yeah.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: National Ferriers Week. Cool.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's also Shark Week. So but again, being
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: in Florida, every day, Shark week because there's sharks everywhere
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: all the time.
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  Speaker 1: Fair, fair enough, all right. So those are holiday things
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: that you can know about and or maybe you already know,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and we're just shouting out to you nowhere of those days.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: But we're not here to talk about those holidays specifically.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: We're here to talk about things that we do and
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: understand or attempts to understand why we do them. And
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: a huge part of understanding why we do them is
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: understanding the history of how we sort of got there,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: and then the contextual variables that continue to maintain support
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: or affect the trajectory of those things. So, as we said,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: we're talking right now about tipping, and it is the
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: kind of tipping you're probably thinking about. It is the
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: idea of paying extra on top of an agreed upon price,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: and it is extremely common. I think most people will
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: have encountered this in restaurants and like dining out at restaurants,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: you probably will have also encountered this in bars and
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: in like coffee shops and that sort of thing in America.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: But this practice in America again in particular, has gotten
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: absurdly out of control. And this has people now asking
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: for tips at a doctor's office, a movie ticket counter,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: and even at self checkouts where you're the only person
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  Speaker 1: participating in that transaction.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So we're going to try to answer where this
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: came from, why do we still do it, what we
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: can do about it, and really just kind of unpack
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: the behavior and the context of tipping as it pertains
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: to not only the US but globally.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, although largely the US unfortunately.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's almost I don't want to say almost exclusively,
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: but it is really a US centric problem.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: We it is a thing into itself here all right away?
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Sufficient to dive into our topic. Is there anything we
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: need to add before we get going.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Let's get into it, my friend, Let's get into it.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, So here's a bunch of information that you already know,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: but said in a decontextualized way to help highlight the
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: sort of weirdness of it. And I feel like that
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: strategy is kind of a part of the why we
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: do what we do. Brand Like, let's just say things
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: but without a lot of contexts, so that you can
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: kind of hear how weird it is that that's the
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: thing that we do. Yeah, just by taking the little
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: pieces out. So I'm gonna describe what to do that
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  Speaker 1: for like a couple of a couple of exchanges here,
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  Speaker 1: in a basic economic arrangement, a vendor assigns a price
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: to an item. A patron accepts the price or maybe
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: haggles with the vendor. But once both parties are in agreement,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: then the patron forks over their money in exchange for
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: the good or service of their choice. That's the basic
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: economic exchange. So protextualize a little. I'm not talking about
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: a specific example of pain for something, but that's kind
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: of how the overall exchange works. And hearing it that
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: way again, the point is start to like that part.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I think we get we understand that part, but the
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  Speaker 1: next part's the important wrinkle here.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, So if you are engaging in this exchange at
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  Speaker 2: a restaurant in the United States, specifically, you're also expected
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  Speaker 2: to pay an additional fee on top of the price
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  Speaker 2: set by the restaurant. So you've already haggled the price,
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  Speaker 2: you've agreed upon the price, you pay the price, and
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  Speaker 2: then you pay an additional price on top of that price.
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  Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, the amount of that additional price or that
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  Speaker 2: fee is decided at the discretion of the patron, who
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  Speaker 2: is not legally obligated to pay anything above the set price,
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  Speaker 2: so the tip could be zero. However, culturally, we will
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  Speaker 2: pay anywhere from ten to twenty percent, sometimes up to
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  Speaker 2: thirty percent or more than the set price, and a
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  Speaker 2: vast majority of people followed these expectations, the ten to
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  Speaker 2: twenty percent usually.
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  Speaker 1: And so this idea of this old thing that we've
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: we've been describing tipping in particularly in restaurants, has been
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  Speaker 1: very normalized in American culture for like generations at this point. Sure,
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: although most people seem to have hated it ever since
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: its existence. But in recent years it has become more ubiquitous.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, and maybe that's not the right way to
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: say that, because ubiquitous kind of already means everywhere, but
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: increasingly valent. It's growth and spread has spawned a bunch
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: of terms in the lexicon to denounce how reviled it
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  Speaker 1: is by the overwhelming majority of people. So people will
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: say things such as tipping, fatigue, guilt tipping, tip creep, tipflation,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: and viral tip shaming to illustrate the mounting discontentment with
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: the fact that tips are now being asked for even
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: in a transaction where the customer performs the entire service
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: by themselves or by people who already famously earn very
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: high wages, such as doctors. Like why would you need
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  Speaker 1: to tip a doctor someone who's already charging you the
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  Speaker 1: equivalent of like a car for the service that they've
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: provided you, right, And like we know that the reason
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of people want to become doctors is because
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: they make so much money, So like tipping in a
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: doctor's offices seems very very silly, particularly as we get
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: into the reason for tipping to begin with. But that
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: is it is just spread to so so many places.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's everywhere. Like I feel like, uh,
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: like my tattoo removal place has a tipping like a
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: tipping app wo like, which is just kind of like
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: like I get it, like you're you you are shooting
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: me with lasers. I am in a lot of pain.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: And like tattoo culture, tipping is expected, like that is
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: part of like the culture inside of that too.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: That's part of it.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: But like I thought it was interesting, like the opposite
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: is true. So I tipped you to get the tattooed.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Now I have to tip you to get rid of
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: the tattoo. That's like a weird I'm having a hard
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: time with that one. Like that one's that one's like
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: it's it's like spinning on my head a little bit.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: No matter what, you're like paying more money than what
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: you kind of budgeted to pay. Yeah, and as you said,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: you're doing it in both circumstances. Both to receive the
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: service and to unreceive the service, you get to pay
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: more money. Yeah, I mean, it's it's an incredible arrangement
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: that we've sort of that we've all sort of just
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: agreed that that's the way that we're going to do things. Yeah,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: and we all just allow podcasts to play ads.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Oh man, we did. Why would we do that?
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Well, let's really start to understand tipping by digging into
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: the history of tipping. And understanding where this comes from.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's get the word tip out of the way.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: A lot we keep saying this word and the word
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: tip is an acronym for to ensure promptitude. People think
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: that at least, and that's a myth. It's not what
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: the word means or where it comes from. So according
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: to Snopes, the word tip is used as a verb
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: in its way. Likely it comes from a sort of
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: slang in which tip meant to give or to share with,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: as in to give someone an informational tip, often with
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: shady dealings and stuff like that, like oh, I'm giving
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: a not much tippair.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: It was one of those things, and we still use
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: it in that way. So it never changed, meaning it
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: just added another level to this.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this whole idea that that's where it comes from.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: And like Snopes did a great job etymologically breaking down
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: why that wouldn't even make sense to have been where
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: that came from. But yes, if you hear that, it's
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: this to ensure promptitude or to ensure promptness, or to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: ensure performance, to ensure prompt service, like those are all
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: things that people have come up with. None of them
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: are true. They're all a lie. You've been lied to.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: That is not how it goes. All myths all myths.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: It was just the word tip that was sort of
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: used as slang, and then it came to mean, in
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: addition to other things, giving someone money. Right now, according
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: to journalists who research these things, tipping seems to have
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: emerged during the Middle Ages in Europe, of course, where
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: bad things come from, and the sort of aristocratic and
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: sometimes monarchical masters, if you will quote unquote masters, they
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: would sometimes provide serfs and servants with an extra gratuity
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: for particularly exemplary service. That was one of the places
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: that we think is one of the first instances of
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: what looks like modern tipping today.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Sure now, in addition to that, tips may have been
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: used in European taverns to incentive quick and high quality service,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: and from there. It is important to understand that Americans
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: and an echo of their European ancestors, love the idea
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: of class structures and feel it necessary to rank themselves
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: above others whenever possible, so a quirky feudal practice that
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: got embedded within and throughout so many aspects of European
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: culture that you hardly notice is there even when you're
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: looking right at it. It's easy to see how Americans
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: could go, oh, I see that, I like that. And
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: so what Americans did? They love showing off how successful
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: and awesome they think they are. And so a tipping
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: kind of hierarchy or ti tipping structure established power dynamics
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: very quickly and exemplified wealth. So Americans went, oh, this
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: is good. This really shows off my wealth, what I'm
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: hoarding that you'll never be able to get. So I'm
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: gonna go ahead and we're gonna do tipping to the extreme.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, the whole sort of feudal system that was
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: largely endemic in Europe, but I mean there were other
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: places too, But like that is that is a place
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: where that sort of became just the cultural norm. It
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: just left this like I feel like it just embedded
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: this value of ranking yourself above others, and in other
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: parts of the world, that's just not how they ever
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: approached things, Like it was not as much or as
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: culturally common to emphasize your success above other people because
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: that's right, honestly, kind of a messed up way to
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: treat people. Yeah, it's not nice, but that became very,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: very embedded, and I mean I think you see it
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: in a lot of things, and in the United States
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: and other vestiges of European and colonization sort of cultures
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: where in particular status is so important. Like you drive
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: the fancy car just because you want to be seen
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: driving the fancy car, not because it's it's better, not
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: because it offers any real advantages. It's just expensive to
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: show off that you can afford something that that's expensive,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: or people buying, you know, paying four hundred dollars for
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: a haircut, or buying a five hundred dollars bottle of
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: wine with dinner, like there's no actual advantage to doing
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: it at that price point, but it allows you to
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: have that status, right, And that's like this weird thing
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: that sort of seems to have just festered its way
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: through culture over time, particularly in this sort of European cultures,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and definitely made when it made its way to the Americas,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: and the idea of sort of masters and slaves really
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: did not help. And we will get to that in
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: a second, we certainly will. But that's why people wear
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: powdered wigs and they buy expensive birds, and they eat
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: expensive fruits, right, they do it because that's I mean,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: that's what I do at least like And when I
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: walk around in my town, I wear a powdered wig
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: and a long cloak, but I make sure the cloak
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: has logos on it, specifically expensive logos that you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: people know that my Balenciaga cloak and my powdered wig.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I got to have both of those things together. That
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: tells you that I am wealthy beyond all reason.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, with an expensive exotic bird on your shoulder as well.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Of course that only speaks in French.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Yes. So there was this version of tipping that what
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: you might have seen in taverns in Europe, where they
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: would essentially try to guarantee quick and good service by
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: just paying a little extra on top of what they
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: were already paying. And when wealthy Americans encountered this practice
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: when they were traveling to Europe, because we're talking in
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: like eighteen hundreds at this point, yeah, they ate it up.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: They loved this idea. They were eager to bring this
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: practice back home to the States and to share it
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: with everyone, and they felt that it created the sense
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: of aristocracy among the American elites because a lot of time,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: particularly back then, there was still the sense of like
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: looking up to European aristocrats and monarchs and the elites there,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and so the American elites wanted to rival and sort
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: of emulate that same attitude and bring this idea of
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: tipping back with them where they had this power dynamic
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: where they could show off their wealth.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Right, And like most sensible people, most Americans, like you know,
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: the American population in general hate hate, hated so much
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: to hated tipping. Like you know, what you might see
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: in the news today is like you might explain that
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: people Americans hate tipping because it's from another country. That
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: might this current administration might argue that, But here I'm
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: just saying, like most most of us don't like tipping, right,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: and they hated tipping so much that it was actually
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: deemed undemocratic. William R. Scott wrote in nineteen sixteen, quote
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: tipping and their aristocratic idea it exemplifies is what we
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: left Europe to escape. It is a cancer in the
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: breast of democracy. End quote. That's pretty powerful metaphor. I
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: think it's pretty clear now Americans were a hard working bunch,
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: most of them, not the elites, of course, and not
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: eager to spend more of their hard earned money that
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: they were already kind of busting their asses to get
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: on what they was already expensive dining experiences such as restaurants.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: They didn't want to spend more money than they already
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: had to spend to have these experiences.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But even though like there were those many elites
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: sort of upper class people who did like this, there
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: were still many of the wealthy America who didn't like
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the idea of tipping. And Mary Anne Morgan, who was
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: daughter of the famous JP Morgan, Yes that JP Morgan,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: the one you're thinking of. Yeah, she famously hated tipping.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: She was also like a big time philanthropist and did
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: a lot of other sort of social justice causes, but
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: she began an anti tipping crusade. And one of the
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: strategies she pursued in this anti tipping was like you
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: can hear that and be like, oh, of course, like
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the wealthy don't want to pay any more money for things,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: So that's why she hated it. Not so, Actually she
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: kind of put her money where her mouth was. Part
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: of her strategy entailed opening a low cost restaurant that
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: not only didn't want tips and made tipping against the
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: rules in that restaurant. I found a whole article clip
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that sort of described this idea of her restaurant where
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: tipping was not allowed at the restaurant, Like we're gonna
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: we're gonna pay her workers, We're gonna pay them fairly.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: You were going to pay the price that we set
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: and we're not going to ask you to pay more
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: than that.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: So glad that you brought that up, because I was
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: thinking about this as we were talking about it, Like
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: what we understand of tipping today is like it's not
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: that we are trying to take money from people who
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: are working. Like the tipping culture includes really two aspects
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: of it, right, like where you're paying this additional feed
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: to the person who's your server or who's in this space,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: but they're also not making a living wage or an
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: hourly wage that is meeting their needs, so like they're
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: relying on tipping to supplement the income that the restaurant
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: should be paying them for regardless. Like that's I think
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: the important piece of this, Like we're not talking about
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: tipping like, oh, tipping is bad, We're talking about tipping
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: culture is really bad.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: There you go and we're going to elaborate on that
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: a lot. In matter of fact, that would be we
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: are like kind of the most of the rest of
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: this discussion as we go.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure, just kind of talking about you know,
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: miss Morgan, all at even a merely universal hatred of
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: tipping was not enough to combat the power of racism. Shockingly,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you're not surprised. Racism plays a huge role
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: in this. It plays a pretty powerful role in this
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: tipping culture. Right, So for the next part to make sense,
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: it is important to understand that there was no such
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: thing as a legally mandated limit on how much or
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: how little someone could be paid for their labor. Okay,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: not tipping, but their actual labor. People had to be paid,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: and they likely wouldn't work for barely anything. So there
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: was sort of like a mutual contingency for both the
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: employer and the employee that the employee would be paid
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: an amount that worked for them, or else they would
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: find another job.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but important to note that, like back at this
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: point when they're like, tipping has made its way to
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the United States, but back in the eighteen hundred, it's
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: like there was no lass saying you had to pay
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: your employees, or that you had to pay them any
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: particular amount. Do you pay them whatever you thought was fair?
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: And like a business that didn't pay their employees unlikely
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: to last very long, probably no one worked there and
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: they would stop being a business. Right, So they're like
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: kind of was some there was contingencies on both sides
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: to sort of ensure that something happened, but there was
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: no requirement that you actually had to pay them any
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: reasonable amount. And again, like that may have even worked
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: if you didn't. Then also throw in the embedded racism
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: and the sort of problems with slavery. So again the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: difference here is like that all made sense except for slavery, right,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: And in that arrangement, of course, one person is forced
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: forced to work without pay and no other like worker
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: protections at all, and no escape from that life at all.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: It was terrible, something for which we should always remember
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: our horrible shame and never do anything like it ever again.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: See your episode on slavery, which we did record a
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: year or two ago that outlined the problems and the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: issues with this. But nobody would want this life, like
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: we definitely heard people who have tried to say, oh, well,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: they don't talk about the benefits of slavery. I'm like, well,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: if you think it's so great, go be someone's slave
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: for the rest of your life and your children and
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: your children's children. Yeah, and see how much you like
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: it and if that's the thing you want for yourself,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: and if you still like it, then great. But otherwise
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: I bet you won't you, And then you do not
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: have a leg to stand on as far as trying
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to defend that. Yeah.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And because we're talking about such a serious topic
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: like slavery, we're not going to do a funny ad break.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: We're just gonna take a quick ad break because it's
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: kind of a rough topic. So here's an ad.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it does make sense that we we acknowledge
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: the lewdness of this with the lewdness of an ad. So, yeah,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: we'll transition back to our topic at hand. We were
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: just talking about, essentially, like how what minimum wage which
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: didn't exist, what wages looked like, and then the fact
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: that there were people who were forced to work and
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: not earn any wages at all.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, at the end of the Civil War and
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: the abolition of slavery, formerly enslaved black people needed work
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: to earn their own money, and so they commonly took
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: jobs and service positions such as waiting on people in
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: dining or drink settings. So you saw that quite a bit,
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: especially like right after slavery was abolished.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like they particularly immediately after, Like they
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: would have had a lot of job experience aside from
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: service that they'd be able to really lean on. So
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: they needed something to be able to sort of take
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: care of themselves.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: According to journalist Nina Martyris, tipping largely became popular in
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the United States during the eighteen nineties and specifically with
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: one event. And I've actually heard this and I've seen
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: this multiple places, so I feel pretty confident that whatever
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: information was dug up on this, this seems to be
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the catalyzing event here, although it's possible something else would
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: have taken its place if it wasn't this sure, but
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: that event was the establishment of a luxury train service
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: run by the Pullman Company. Was what it was called.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: The Great hold On Real Quick. What a great last
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: name for trains. That's a good point. I did not
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: think about that, But you're right. Is that works fun?
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: That is awesome?
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that works a little too. Well, that's suspicious. How
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: well that works?
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I don't like that. Did I ever
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: tell you so? Did I ever tell you? Like we
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: did our family tree all the way back, and we
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: learned that, like my immigrant family that came here when
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: they came here in the eighteen hundreds, the reason my
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: last name is Spiker is because they were working on
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: railroads and they were the ones that would set up
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: the railroad spikes.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I did not know that. That's fun.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something we learned in our in our dives.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, who knows how accurate that is, but that's
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: what that's what we learned as we were investigating that.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Wow, okay, maybe some history here then. Speaking of trains, Yeah,
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: speaking of trains, So, the founder of the Pullman Company,
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: George Pullman, he did hire these formally enslaved black men
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: to work as service importers on his train. And while
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: that sounds altruistic and one hundred percent was not, to
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: decrease his costs and maximize his profits, he installed the
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: system in which he paid his employers, the black employers, specifically,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: next to nothing. It was as little as twelve dollars
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: per month, or even nothing in some cases, but offered
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: the opportunity to earn more money on top of what
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: he paid them in the form of tips from customers. Now,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: even back then, you hear twelve dollars a month and
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, but it was the eighteen nineties, like
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that was probably a lot. Like no, that was still
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: basically nothing like rent would have still been more than
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: twelve dollars a month at that point. So like they
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: were probably living in abject poverty at rates of pay
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: like that, or barely scraping by and maybe if they
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: had more work they'd be okay, But that is very
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: very little amounts of money.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Right, So, as an employer, effectively paying your employees less
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: and relying on them to make tips was a way
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: to offload the responsibility of paying your employees and just
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: really put it back on the customers, right, And so
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: they got to choose whether and to what extent they
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: would make up the difference. And that's really kind of
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: like a core thing about tipping culture. It tips are
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: supposed to make up the difference if the restaurant doesn't
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: want to pay their employees. That's exactly it, And that's
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: kind of like the crux of it, right, so now
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: he could get away with not paying a fair salary
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: in increasing profits for himself and allow racist Southerners to
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: treat workers as they felt they deserve to be treated poorly.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: And as it was a train service, it traveled to
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of different places and spread the cancerous idea
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: of tipping with it. Restaurant owners in particular quickly glombed
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: onto this practice and started using it within their service,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: specifically with their serving staff.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the start of this is like, how can I
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: not pay black people who used to be slaves and
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: make them work anyway? And that's kind of the system
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: he came up with. And then restaurant owners, who are
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: usually operating off of pretty thin margins to begin with,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: were like, well, this is a way I can actually
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: increase how much my business makes is by not paying
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: my staff, right, and instead the customers will pay my
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: staff and we'll just sort of shift the obligations over
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: here a little bit. And it kind of worked. Despite
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: the growing popularity of tipping among businesses such as bars, restaurant, trains,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: and places with serving staff, the public at large still
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: did hate pain for things twice and so finally, the
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: various governments of the United States. These are state governments.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: They finally stepped into do something about this, and around
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: the beginning of the nineteen hundreds, forty eight of the
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: fifty US states passed laws outright banning tipping. And to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: be fair, at that point, I think they were only
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: forty nine states, but.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there were, there weren't very many. There weren't all
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: fifty yeend.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, almost all of them tried to ban an outlaw
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: tipping at the turn of the nineteen hundreds.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But the problem was that none of these laws
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: were very very difficult to or nearly impossible to enforce,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: and the governments of different states repealed their anti tipping laws.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: So great lip service. Great that you passed it, and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: they went, oh, how do we do this? Oh we
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: can't okay, never mind.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah that was basically it is like there was there's
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: no mechanism by which they can enforce this. I mean again,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: for one thing, there was no minimum wage yet, and
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: for another, like nothing is being recorded digitally, so they
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: could just write down whatever and then report that if
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: they're going to report it at all, right, And another
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: thing is they couldn't necessarily control customer behaviors, so like
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: they just kind of can continued to foster this culture
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: to the best of their ability, so they could continue
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to offload their costs of paying people and put it
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: on to customers instead. Right, it was very, very difficult
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: for the government to do anything about it. So, okay,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: so restaurants, bars, and other service industries are using the
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: practice of tipping that started with racist policies designed to
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: avoid paying former slaves. And anyway, they're using tipping to
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: have an excuse to not pay their employees and instead
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: have the customers pay their employees while keeping their prices
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: low to create a sense that people are paying lower
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: prices than what they actually end up paying, because of
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: course they're then paying that amount on top of whatever
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: the service or good that they paid for.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: It was, right, exactly. So it's smoking mirrors, baby, that's
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: all it is.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we had to set up that for the
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: next part.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so you might have heard us say there
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: was no minimum wage, and let's talk about that. This
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: issue could not have possibly persisted with the adoption of
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: a federal minimum wage, especially when that became a thing. Actually,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: that's very wrong if for some reason it did. And
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: here's why. When the fair Labor Standards Act established a
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: federal minimum wage. They specifically carved out an exemption for
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: workers who had tips as part of their wages, which
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: meant that everyone who earned tips could be paid less
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: than the federal minimum wage because they could potentially earn
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: their money from tips. As somebody who worked in a
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: restaurant at one point in time, my hourly rage was
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: two dollars and fifteen cents because I was making that
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: when I was getting tipped, and if I did not
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: get any tips that night, I only made two dollars
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: and fifty cents per hour during my shift.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly it. That is how that works, and
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: that was legal well and that still is like that
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: is still that is those are still the laws right now.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I didn't work in the eighteen hundreds. I
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: worred was this was this was two thousand and one, you.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Know, yeah, yeah, yeah, So there was a federal minimum wage.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: It exempted employees to essentially less than that. Now, there
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: was this a s Preme Court ruling in nineteen forty
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: two that tipped employees were not obligated to share their
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: tips with other restaurants staff. And while we might hear
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: that and be like, oh, what jerks that they ruin this? Actually,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I think what they did here was maybe a little
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: more clever than it sounds. I think what the reason
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: for this ruling, or at least an outcome of this ruling,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: is that if only the service staff, the people who
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: were out on the floor bringing plates and whatnots people
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: were the ones who were working on tips, that would
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: have made it so that the staff who were not
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the front of the house serving staff, like the cooks
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: and the people behind like they would have had to
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: have been paid at least the federal minimum wage because
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: and not been exempt from that like the serving staff were,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: because they would not then be considered a tipped employee.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: So I think that was actually what they were trying
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: to do, is they were actually trying to reduce how
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: much of the burden was being offloaded in this tipping
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: culture by allowing the workers who earned the tips to
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: keep all those tips to themselves. I think I think
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that was the plan. I couldn't find anything to corroborate that,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: but that would have been an implication of that, because
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: to be deemed exempt from minimum wage, you had to
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: be a tipped wage earner. Essentially So anyway, what happened
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: then is Congress created a tip credit, and this allowed
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: employers to pay employees a sub minimum wage that was
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: specifically forty to sixty percent of minimum wage, again with
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: the understanding that the rest would be made up from
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: tips that that would fill the gap. Which is kind
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: of funny thinking that, like, if they're paying let's say generously,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: they're being paid sixty percent of minimum wage, right, that
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: means that to get the amount they would have to
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: be tipped to make up that gap is forty percent,
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: and no one's tipping forty percent, right, right, So just
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: the thing to consider anyway, that meant that minimum wage
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: for tipped employees because this was set out of percent,
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: like Congress said it, So it's forty to sixty percent
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: of minimum wage. If that system is in place, then
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: as minimum wage increased, tipped employees would also continue to
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: have their wage, their minimum wage increased as it went
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: like that would have been how that played out. So
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: that was in I think the nineteen sixties or something
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: like that that they made that they passed that law.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: Right now, in nineteen ninety six, Republicans controlled Congress, and
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: so Congress froze the wage of tipped workers at two
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: dollars and thirteen cents per hour, which is about four
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: dollars per hour today. This dollar amount, two dollars and
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: thirteen cents is still current minimum wage for tipped workers
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: in nineteen states in the US, almost thirty years later.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: I remember when this happened because my mom has spent
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: her entire life working in restaurants and she was a
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: server at the time, and I remember when this happened
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: and everybody was fuming, fuming about it, yeah, because they
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: were like, this is it's unfair. We're already scraping the
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: barrel like to get paid, Like we're already working, busting
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: our asses to get paid. So thirty years later, it's
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: still two dollars and thirteen cents per hour today.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Like today, people in nineteen states in the United States
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: could be earning two dollars and thirteen cents per hour.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Two dollars and thirteen cents. That is a crazy low number.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: So I just want to throw a bunch of these
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: states under the bus really quick. These are the nineteen
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: states where this is allowed. Alabama, Arkansas, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: North Carolina, South Carolina, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, and Wyoming.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Those are the nineteen states that still have two dollars
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: and thirteen cents as the exempted sort of minimum wage
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: for those workers from that nineteen ninety six law. So
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: what do those states have in common, you decide?
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And I'm thinking a specific.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Queue me too for most of them. There are some
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: states that have actually completely removed this exemption. That means
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: there is no such thing as a sub minimum wage
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: in those states. That means that in those states, if
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: you're a worker who works on minimum wage, you get
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: paid at least the federal minimum wage or the state
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: minimum wage. And actually for most of those states, they
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: do have a state minimum wage that exceeds the federal
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: minimum wage. Right, and so the states that have completely
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: removed this are Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Those are completely gone as far as the MINIMUMI. That
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: means that if you go to a restaurant in any
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: one of those places, the waiters there are being paid
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: at least the state minimum wage, which might also be
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: the federal minimum wage. But if you go to any
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: of those other states, any other state besides those, they're
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: likely being paid a sub minimum wage, and possibly they're
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: being paid only two dollars and thirteen cents an hour
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: if they're in any of the states that I listed before.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So just wanted to get that out there. I wanted
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: do you all to know if you're in those states
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: or you visit those states, that's kind of what you
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: can expect as far as what's being paid for those employees.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: We only get paid for like patron supporters. And then
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: sometimes adds oh, all right, so we just threw a
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: whole bunch of people under the bus, and I guess
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: sort of complimented some states who have moved away from
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the system. So let's continue on from here. Have we
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: solved the issue of tipping by removing the subminimum wage?
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, based on what you said, it sounds
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: like tipping culture is diminishing, but it's not. It's actually growing.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: It's getting worse. So it's growing in a way that
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: is like a little bit icky. We'll say that, scientifically speaking,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: it's icky. Yeh. So, as we mentioned at the top,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: tipping is growing so common you might be asked to
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: tip a business for a job that you performed yourself,
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: or to tip people who famously make a lot of
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: money from their jobs, and like.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Various other places, there are places you've just never been
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: asked to tip before that all of a sudden you're
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: being asked to tip. And again, like tipping people when
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: you do takeout. That kind of does make sense in
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: a restaurant industry, particularly in the States. But who knows.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: But like then tipping again, like a self serve kiosk,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: you might be asked to tip. I'm like, who is
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: this for at this point? Really, it's definitely gotten. Just
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: it's so common and so and people hate it understandably.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Why does this continue to spread? Okay, so this is
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: kind of why this happens sort of thing. This is
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: that that section of this discussion. For one thing, people
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: who have the opportunity to earn extra money, they're not
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: going to turn that down in a lot of these cases, right,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: That is right. The behavior gets reinforced by successfully augmenting
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: people's income at least a little. And further, the response
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: effort to like set up a process for tipping is
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: extremely low. All you have to do is make it
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: available and some people will do it and you just
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: keep the cash. So it's just like by the way
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: we accept tips, and then every once in a while
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: you'll get tipped, even if it's not a place that
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: commonly receives tips. So like, if you're already going to
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: get a little extra money for it, and it costs
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: you almost like basically nothing to do and really no effort, like,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: it's easy to understand why people would ask for it
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: in settings where it doesn't really make as much sense
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: for them to do. So. Another thing I think to
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: consider is that, like effort and reward are not the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: only factors in determining the choices that people will make
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: about things. There's also like is it acceptable is a
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: thing for which you will be socially stigmatized? There's kind
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: of no social stigma associated for asking for tips, at
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: least not anymore, right, And there's even less stigma the
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: more that this happens, and the more common it becomes,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: that people feel comfortable asking for tips, So people are
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: really incentivized to participate in a system that costs them nothing,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: has no social disapproval, and may earn them extra money.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Who wouldn't at least try to do it? With a
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: system like that. Right, So sure we're facing three major
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: goliath contextual features that make it the people are definitely
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: going to ask for tips and in places where again
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: it just is not really a place where that would
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: the reason for tipping to supplement income that doesn't exist
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: in that space.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now another reason, of course is guilt
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: or social convention. So again, when we talk about behavior,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: behavior goes two ways. It either goes towards something or
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: goes away from something. It's generally speaking.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Right, generally speak.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Generally speaking, it's obviously more complicated that, but to simplify
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: it for this context, I'm either trying to get to
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: this thing or get away from something. And sometimes we
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: tip because of guilt or social conventions. I want to
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: avoid being misjudged. Right. The act of tipping is not
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: just customary, it's a message. A tip indicates appreciation, kindness, respect.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: A tip is often followed by a thank you or
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: some other reciprocal appreciation. Sometimes we feel guilty, so we're like,
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: I don't want to feel guilt, so I'm gonna tip
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: you because I feel like I'm supposed to. Right, we
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: have those, Yeah, but let's talk about the behavior tipping. Right,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: If we don't tip, we feel like we're sending the
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: message that we don't appreciate, we don't respect, or we
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: don't care about someone specifically, like their performance. Right, we
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: feel like we're we don't respect your performance, we don't
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: appreciate all that. Yeah, and we might be wondering, is
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: this person getting over by their employer. I might be
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: really helping them out by sparing an extra dollar or two, which,
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: you know, if I'm out of the restaurant, I feel
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: like I can sometimes, right, and some of us might
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: just hit the tip button because we aren't really paying attention.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: It happens like that too. So there's also just kind
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: of like the rote response of oh, yeah, here's that button, right,
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: here's the number, and so we could do it. Could
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: be for any of those reasons.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: You know. I've had that experience where I see the
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: option for tip, I'm like, if you have to ask,
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: that makes me think that like something's going on here
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: where you need this, you know.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: And one of the problems is like we feel like
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: we're being generous, and we are and that people who
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: get those tips definitely appreciate it. But the more we
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: do it, the more, we create a condition under which
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: those people can become tipped employees. Yes, like they could
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: actually have their wages shifted from earning whatever they earn
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: to earning the sort of tipped employee status and earn
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: sub minimum wage status. Yes. And we also just create
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: a culture of prevalence where that becomes part of all
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: of our financial transactions. And it's not like we're gonna
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: be paying less for those services. We're going to be
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: paying the exact same amount and then a tip. So
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: it's like this is just a lose lose situation for
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: everyone here. So anyway a thing to consider that does
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: lead us to, though, I think, what can we do
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: about this, this practice that has just gotten so unbelievably
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: out of hand. A lot of people have already taken
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: approach that they just won't tip anymore, And unfortunately, I
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: just that really can't work. Tipping is too fully embedded
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: for that to be a workable solution. Too many people
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: would suffer too much for us to just go like,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: all right, no more tipping, We're done. Certainly we don't
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: need to tip every single time that we're asked for tipping,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: particularly things where like that doesn't make sense. We're not
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: supplementing income. Maybe nobody even engaged with us and we
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: did it ourselves, or like we're we're paying people who
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: already make plenty of money. We've described before, Like in
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: those cases, it doesn't necessarily make sense, but there are
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: people who still subsist on sub minimum wage who definitely
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: desperately depend on that money. Right now in most states,
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: like so many states, there's only that handful that have
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: eliminated the sub minimum wage, even the ones that aren't
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: operating off the two dollars and thirteen cents an hour,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: some of them are literally two cents more than that.
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: I did see two dollars and fifteen cents in the list,
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: and I just didn't include them because they were more
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: than the two thirteen, but only barely, you know, And
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: there are plenty of them that were less than five
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: dollars an hour. That was super common to see. So like,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: there are people who are making exceptionally little money in
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: those states. So most of them do have a situation
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: like that. So until we can fix their earnings, simply
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: stopping tipping would cripple them financially like that. That just
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: can't be the solution right now. That would absolutely destroy
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: the financial viability of people who currently have a status
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: as a tipped worker right now, even situations where people
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: do earn minimum wage.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: The federal minimum wage right now is currently at seven
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: to twenty five okay, seven to twenty five per hour,
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: which hasn't increased since two thousand and nine. A worker
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: earning minimum wage who works forty hours per week will
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: earn fifteen thousand and sixty dollars per year, which is
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: pretty much at the poverty line and not a livable
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: wage at all. Although to be fair, many states have
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: their own minimum wage it can exceed the federal government. Washington, DC,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Washington State, California, parts of New York are the highest.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: But that is to say, again, if we just stop tipping,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: even those earning the federal minimum wage or state minimum
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: wage are likely to be barely scraping by or actually
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: live in poverty.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So again, like the solution here, it can't be
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: that we stop tipping, and it even like getting rid
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: of the sub minimum wage would definitely help, it would
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: definitely not get rid of that problem, as we've already seen,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: because there are states where they've gotten rid of the
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: sub minimum wage and people still do tip. And part
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: of that is because, like even out minimum wage, those
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: workers will probably still need tips because that's just not
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: enough to just get by on just that amount of
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: money for a lot of those people. Yeah, Now, some
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: businesses have tried to sort of replicate Maryanne Morgan's vision.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: If you remember at the beginning we talked about her
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: restaurant where they wouldn't allow tips. And so I've been
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: to these restaurants that they discouraged tipping, and they will
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: even expressly advertise that they pay their staff a living
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: wage so that a tip is not necessary or expected,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: and they'll say, like, listen, we know that a lot
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: of people want to do this. If you want to,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: you can, but we're telling you it is not expected.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: It is okay if you don't tip, because we are
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: paying our employees enough. I've been to at least two
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: that I can think of on the top of my head.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: And to answer the question you probably have, yes, I
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: paid more for my food. Did I pay more than
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I would have paid if I had paid you know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: whatever it was, and then added the tip on top
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: of that. Probably not right. It probably was what I
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: end up usually paying what the tip included, And I
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: felt really good about that being a place where I
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: can go and just pay the agreed upon price and
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: know that the people who work there are not then
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: suffering financially because of my decision to do that. Right.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, have you been to a place like that, Shane?
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: I have, and it's it's pretty interesting, Like, but Florida,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Florida doesn't really Florida's not very forward thinking about things.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: You don't say, ah, yeah, weird, right, So most of
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: the places, like unless it's like a new restaurant and
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: maybe like a city like a Orlando, you're not gonna
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: see that. I mean, the town I live in is
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: not very like ahead of the time, so like you're
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: gonna see folks that just like you know, at restaurants,
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: at least you're they're making minimum wage. I mean, my
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: mom works at a restaurant where they're still doing that,
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: so like they're making less of minimum wage should say're
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: making that sub minimum wage. So yeah, I've been to
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: place like that, but it's it's few and far between
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: here in the South. At least.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I was surprised that Florida was not on the list
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: of places where they had they still had that two
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: dollars and thirteen cents an hour. I forgot what it was,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: but it was above that at least.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: It's like four or five or something like that. It's
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: like it's still really low.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was like in that sort of
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: if you take the averages of the sub minimum wage,
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: it was like kind of right around with the average
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: sub minimum wage was as quite closer to five dollars
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: an hour. Yeah, yeah, which is so barely anything.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nothing.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: And you know, we didn't talk about this, but the oh,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: actually no we did, because the whole point of the
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: minimum minimum wage is like if you oh no, we didn't.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: It was like if you make thirty percent of your
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: wages for the month come from tips, then you count
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: as a tipped employee. It's something like that, Like that's
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: how they define the criteria for calling someone a tipped employee.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's some like weird laws about like how
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: it gets counted for tax purposes and stuff like that,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: and how you claim tips and like it's such a complex,
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: an unnecessarily complex system.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unnecessary, like ads are unnecessary.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Oh exactly, exactly, all right, we're back.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: There are some other strategies that have been proposed to
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: try and get rid of tipping. So here they are.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Okay. So some places have proposed changes such as profit
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: sharing among employees, charging a service fee at places with servers,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: which I've seen that, but I've I've seen them charging
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: service fees, but the service fees are going back to
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: the restaurant because they're like, this is a living fee
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: wage and they're not like it's like weird, Like I've
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: seen that happen a couple of times. Huh, But charging
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: a service fee to make up for the tipping will
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: be what they should do, right, Increasing the cost of
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: products sold and paying staff at a higher base salary,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: many or all of these could be viable options to
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: move away from tipping.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but we the commonality of tipping in our culture
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: makes it so that even with those policy changes, it
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: would be a long, slow, gradual change to get rid
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: of it. And it's right now it's only accelerating, like
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: we're only seeing it more and more. Right, So, Okay,
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: this next one we've got to be a little bit
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: careful on. But it's it's really important to understand and
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: break down because people are going to hear this and
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: immediately be a little bit up in arms. There's a
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: large proposal to eliminate taxes on tips. This was both
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: parties advertised and campaigned on this in the last election cycle.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Sounds great. Workers who rely on tips definitely gonna love
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: this sort of thing, but we again, this is a
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: sneaky thing that we need to actually pay attention to
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: what this incentivizes. Many scholars think and predict that this
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: would actually make tipping culture significantly worse, and the reason
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: is that tipping is already a way to offload compensation
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: responsibilities from an employer to a consumer instead. If they
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: can get away with earning income without having to pay
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: taxes on it, more people will try and exploit that
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: system of earning income so that they don't have to
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: pay taxes on their income. Like they will push for
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: more wages earned via tips and actually accept a lower
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: hourly rate because they will be taxed at a lower
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: rate for the money that they earn from tips alone.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: This will powerfully incentivize systems at all levels, from the
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: lowest worker to the highest CEO to push for tips
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: harder than they ever have before. So unfortunately, eliminating tax
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: on tips, while that sounds very appealing and I don't
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: want to take away the gain that would be rot
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: from employees who do depend on tips. This would actually
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: make the tipping problems substantially worse in our culture, Like
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: it might actually double in how often we are expected
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: to do this, or more like, it could show up
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: in every financial transaction you make. If they could shift
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: their income to a non taxed income, they're gonna do that,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: and they're gonna do it hard. So like yeah, yeah,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: So what I think would be a much better system
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: is to just pay your employees better, Like, rather than
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: incentivize going whole hog on tipping, let's just pay our
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: employees better. I think the like that will even if
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily remove tips, it can at least curb
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: the acceleration of tips.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. One, I mean, basic behavior would tell me like, oh,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna engage in the behavior that's going to produce
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: the most reward without any sort of like cost or
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: without any sort of punishment. Right, so, like, oh, a
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: source of income without any penalties on it, You better
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: believe I'm gonna go for that. Like why wouldn't I
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: go for that?
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And so then then tipping goes everywhere, every
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: absolutely everywhere.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Everywhere, everywhere. With that being said, it would definitely be
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: helpful for any of us if we're in a situation
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: where there's transactions in which a tip is not really
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: needed or necessary to stop asking for tips. Those folks
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: should stop asking for tips in those situations, and we
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: should also probably not tip in those situations. Like when
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: I go again, going back to my tattoo removal, I
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: should not be tipping. I should not be tipping this place.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Nobody there is on a sub minimum wage scale, like
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: nobody's nobody's there working on they're all actually pretty highly paid.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: So and because most of the time insurance doesn't cover it,
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: it's usually like direct pay, it's usually like a private
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: pay circumstance. So it's a situation where like, we really
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: shouldn't be tipping, so we should please stop. But I
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: do think it's important to remember that there is a
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: cultural kind of expectation to tip in the United States
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: at least, and it's very difficult to overcome that urge
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: to tip, even when you're told not to, even when
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: situations say like, hey, you don't need to tip here,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: you still feel it, especially for those of us who
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: have worked in service industries. And like feel guilty that
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: somebody is working and serving us and we want to
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: make sure they're tipped right. And it is unlikely to
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: become a popular trend anytime soon. And even if we
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: were eager to philosophically embrace the idea of not tipping,
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: we might struggle with it emotionally due to the difference
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: in costs that we would immediately be confronted with. So
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Douglas Miller, a lecturer at the Hotel School of the
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: South Carolina Johnson College of Business at Cornell University, Good, lord,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: that is a long.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: That's the longest title I've ever seen.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: That's the longest school.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the reference that I saw. So I
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: was like, all right, I'm putting it in there.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, here we are, okay. So Douglas Miller pointed
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: out that quote as a culture, since we underpay for
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: the quality of the food that we eat in the
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: United States, then that presents a dilemma where the customer
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to pay for the food end quote. Yeah,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: And in such of the argument he's making is like,
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: we get exceptionally high quality food when we go to
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: a restaurant. And I agree, I think we have great
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: restaurants here in the United States. Some of them are terrible,
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: but like, we have some great restaurants here, and the
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: quality of the food that is guaranteed by the regulations
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: that specify how food must be prepared and like, and
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: all of that is makes it so that we are
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: reliably getting very safe to eat nutritious things at a
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: lot of these restaurants. And we do not pay as
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: much for those things as we would have to if
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: we were paying the cost that the restaurant was paying.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: And so they instead shift that cost to us by
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: having us tip the employees instead, and they pay those
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: employees less. And if we just shifted it back so
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: that we weren't said paining what that food is actually worth,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: we would be like, Nope, not paying those prices, even
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: though ultimately we kind of are already paying those prices.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: And if we're not, then all we're doing is ruining
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: someone else's life. So like tough pill to swallow.
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be difficult to do this, Yeah, but I
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: think most of us agree that it'll be worth it,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: So agreed, we'll see if we can get there. There
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: was a fun little segment here that I found that
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: were tipping cultures our practices around the world, because, as
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: we've been alluding to this whole time, the United States
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: does tipping hard. No country on earth has embraced tipping
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: the way that the United States has. Tipping in the
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: US is like guns in the US wildly out of control,
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: way way beyond basic common sense and reasoning, and happening
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: at a staggering, alarming rate. I could just say gun violence,
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: but I would just say just getting guns in general
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: here is ludicrous and like the kinds of things that
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: people have access to and buy all the time. But
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: that's just to give a quick analogy for people who
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: understand what gun culture is like in the United States.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: And I will say that like North America broadly has
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: pretty similar tipping practices across the countries of North America,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: although again it's mostly at restaurants. This tipping for everything
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: thing that's going on in the United States pretty unique
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: to the United States.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely now. In Japan and China it is not
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: only not customary to tip, it's actually insulting and embarrassing.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: So if you're traveling these places, tipping is traditionally unwelcome,
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: to say the least, And you know, what because sometimes
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: this happens, like when I was in Italy, like it's
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: not accepted. Tipping was not accepted, but it was one
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: of those things where it's still popped up here and there. Yeah,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: like it showed it just enough that was like a
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: little bit perervasive. So I would imagine that like you
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: should assume that in Japan and China, like based on
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: kind of like the cultural this stuff that we're talking
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: about here, that it's not welcome and it's offensive, but
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: you still may see it come up in some places.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: So you may and that may be a little bit jarring,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: like you might go, oh, I thought this was not
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: a thing, but like it still may pop up.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Well, And that's exactly it is that as more and
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: more travelers go to particularly from the United States, but
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: North America brobably, I guess as more and our travelers
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: go to places like Japan and China and try to
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: tip and leave extra money, many places, particularly in urban areas,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: they are starting to accept tips here and there, and
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: even in some cases maybe slightly are starting to expect it.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: This is a very unfortunate evolution of global capitalism, and
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: hopefully we can stem of the tide of this bad
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: idea before it embeds itself overseas the way that it
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: has in the United States. So generally speaking, I would say, like,
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: pay attention to what the expectations are. Ask if you're
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: not sure, and they will tell you. And do not
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: expect probably to be tipping in those definitely not in
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: rural spaces in Japan and China and maybe other other
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: Asian countries. Those are the two I found explicit information on.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: But the expectation is no tipping. You might start to
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: see it crop up. Don't go out of your way
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: to do it right, like it's actually to like what
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: I read is, in a way, it's sort of like
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: saying like I'm better than you. Here's somebody to show
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: that I'm better than you, and they're sort of like
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: that's rude, Like just keep your money, I don't need
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: your charity.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: Jerk right right, right exactly. So in Egypt and some
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: other parts of the Middle East, there's a culture of
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: tipping pretty much all service staff, doorholders, bathroom attendants, taxi drivers,
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: food service workers, guides, and hotel staff. However, the ethos
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: around tipping is very different. It is called bakshish and
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: as closer can to tithing or a sort of loosely
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: defined pay it forward type of system. It's very expected
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: regardless of the type of or quality of the service.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: And evidently not tipping might mean that the doors are
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: locked and bathrooms are less accessible and service is not
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: as readily provided, whereas when you tip, you might find
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: your ability to move around and do things much easier.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: There's far less barriers there.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: And I also think that the amount of the tip
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: does not have to be particularly excessive. I don't even
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: think it's necessarily a percentage. It's like, here's a little
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: extra cash. And then they're like, oh, by the way,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: this bathroom that was restricted is now open to you, right,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: surprise stuff where they sort of have a levered a
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: poll to just say, like, you make my life a
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: little more comfortable, and I think your life a little
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: more comfortable.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: But there is this sort of again pay it forward
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: type thing where it's not it's just not set up
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: the same way as the United States. But that was
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: a place where I saw that tipping does exist again,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: not quite like the US, but it does have its
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: own version right absolutely Denmark. Denmark is labeled as one
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: of the happiest countries on Earth, and they have very
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: very little tipping in their culture, almost none. They largely
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: don't need it and kind of never really adopted it.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: They just made sure people were paid appropriately. However, throughout Scandinavia,
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: it is fairly common to round up your check to
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: like the nearest dollar amount as sort of a gesture
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: of appreciation. I mean, this is going to come to
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: a percentage, like a single percent, like one percent or
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: less of your overall check. But rounding up is just
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: a way to say, like, here's a little extra. You know,
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: it's the like you gave me this change. I kind
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: of don't want to carry it around with me. I'll
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: just give it back to you and you can pocket
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: it and that's fine. Yeah, and they're like, thanks, that's great.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: So like that was a gesture that seems to appear
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: in sort of Scandinavian countries. Yeah, not at all at
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: the level of the United States, where you're no basically
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: paying for your meal again or whatever.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: You're the know, when you round up your check to
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: the nearest dollar here, it's to donate to a medical cause,
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: because our health care system is not is totally privatized.
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: So like instead of like rounding up to like, you know,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: show your appreciation. You're rounding up to donate to Saint
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Jude's Children's Hospital to help childhood cancer. So very different
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: experience here, I think. Yeah, all right, So as a
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: general rule, if you're traveling, you should ask if tipping
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: is customary. I respond accordingly, And in many circumstances people
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: will not mind earning a little extra. But in some
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: places it may be very insulting. And at the very least,
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: no one really wants to spread tipping culture where it
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: doesn't already exist. We want to try to avoid that
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: if possible, because it has created so many problems. And
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: so we as a general recommendation and maybe a call
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: to action, let's go ahead and do everything we can
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: to keep this tipping cancer culture contained. If we can't
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: get rid of it altogether, at the very least, let's
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: quarantine it off and prevent everybody else from adopting it.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: Yes, so that is tipping. It is a thing that
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: we do that we don't want to do, and we
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: would like to stop doing it, and hopefully if over
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: time we can move our culture away from it. But
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: we do need to ensure that we don't set up
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: systems that promote, elongate, and incentivize tipping culture to persist.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: So again as a sort of call to action, like
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: if you don't need a tip, like, please don't ask
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: for one. I get that it's very tempting to get
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: that extra cash, but if you can go without it,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: please don't ask for one. Yeah, but in places where
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: people depend on tips for them to survive, please tip
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: them until we get our system fixed and they can
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: like earn a living wage, like we've got we gotta
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: be taking care of our people who are who are
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: out doing those things. So it's unfortunate, but like that
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: is the system we currently have, so like we can't
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: just stop tipping them until we figured out a way
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: to fix this.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Yep, exactly.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's take on points. Though, is there anything
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: you'd like to add or anything that I forgot before
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: we transition to our recommendations.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I think the only thing we forgot is our next tadbreak.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: All right, we are going to recommend some things. These
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: are things that we find joy in that are not
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: necessarily related to our topic. Sometimes they are today they're not.
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: This is I think a fun part. But before I
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: do that, I would like to get through our credits
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: really quick and then we'll get to the fun part,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: which is the recommendations. So thank you so much to
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: my team of people writing in fact checking from Shane
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: and myself. Thank you for recording with me today.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Shane Hey, thank you for having me.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. And our person
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: who makes the sounds good is Justin. He does all
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: of our audio engineering, and the music that you hear
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: us also by him. Wherever you hear music, Justin did that.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: So thank you Justin.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: He's the best.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: And of course thank you to our patron supporters. If
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: you would like to support this podcast, one way that
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: you can do that is by heading over to Patreon.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: In addition, you can get episodes without ads, you can
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: get episodes before they actually publish, and you can get
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: other behind the scenes content and goodies of that nature.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: And in addition, the thing that you probably want is
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: you want to hear your name from my voice on
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: these episodes locked in permanently in time for the period
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: of time that you are a patron supporter, and that
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: includes the like of such lovely people as Mike m Meghan,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you all very much. We really appreciate you.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: Ah, you're the best. We love you so much.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: In addition, you can leave us a rating and review,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: tell a friend like and subscribe. You can head over
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: to our merch store. Apparently our our shopping cart link
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: is broken, so I will fix that. But we do
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: have merch for sale over there, and I will get
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: that fixed and figure out what's happening and why things
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: aren't working. But eventually they will, and I will report
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: back with an update when that happens. I'll probably post
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: to social media. Yeah. I think that is it for
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: our credits before we get your recommendations.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: All right, let's do it, yay.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: Recommendations. Okay, So my recommendation is music. If you like music,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: I like music, most of us like music that we
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: hang out here, and so hopefully you will enjoy this
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: new record. There's a band out of New York called
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Hotline T and T. I believe they're out of New York.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: They seem to play in New York a lot. They're
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: called Hotline T and T, and they are a newer
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: I would describe as like a shoegaze band, very fuzzy instrumentation,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: very nineties feel, like, just really really good and really
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: catchy stuff. They have a new record out called Raspberry
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: Moon that is phenomenal if you like kind of like
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: the current feel right now where you know you like
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: guitars that sound like they hear played through like fifteen
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: distortion pedals, but they're still melody to it. Like, if
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: you like old Smashing Pumpkins and anything in that vein,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: then I think that you'll dig Hotline T and T.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: I think it's an update on the genre. I think
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: that it is a little bit catchier than some of
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: the more like heavier Smashing Pumpkins. It's like all the best,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: all the pretty parts of Smashing Pumpkins put onto an album,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: so it's worth giving it a listen. So if you
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: like that sort of stuff, the band is called Hotline
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: T and T and their album is called Raspberry Moon.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Fun All right, cool, Yeah, I'm gonna recommend a board game. Yeah,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: it's been been a minute since I did that, probably
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: at least two episodes, so I'm gonna do it again.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: I will preface this by saying that the theme of
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 1: the game not good, but the game itself quite good.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: And so the theme of the game is called unconscious Mind, okay,
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: and this is all about Freud's theory of the unconscious,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: and it's just not particularly tongue in cheek, although they
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: do have some intentional Freudian slips written to the rules.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: It's pretty funny. If you look at pictures of this game,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: it looks very intimidating and overwhelming, and even reading through
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: the rules the first time, I was a little taken aback,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: and then I figured out how it all works together,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I get it. It's actually
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: not that it's not that complex, and it looks very complex.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: It looks alarmingly complex, but it's really not actually not
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: that hard to learn or to teach. It's one of
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: those things where it's like, on when it's your turn,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: you choose one of three things that you're gonna do.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: That's pretty much it. Where it gets complicated is that
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: every choice you make could have a cascade of effects,
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: and so you're just trying to plan, like what cascade
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: is going to be the biggest advantage to me. But
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: they also did a really good job that like, no
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: matter what decision you make, it's probably not gonna not
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: do anything for you or even like hurt you in
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: any way. It just won't be as good as it
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: could have been. And I love that when they set
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: that up well in a game. Yeah, so the art
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: in this is fantastic. They have all these cards that
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: are called latent Dreams and there's manifest dreams, and the
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: art on these cards to depict dreams phenomenal. It's so good.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: I love that they have these client that that are
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: these cards that they're like objectives you have to complete.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: All you have to do is just it's actually like
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: you're barely doing anything to complete these objectives. You literally
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: just like move a dial down like they're done.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: That's fun.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: What's really clever about it is they have these transparent
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: cards that are the same size that have this sort
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: of roar shock ink blot looking like haze that you
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: then put on top of the client card and that's
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: called their grief layer. Okay, and it's just this really
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: fun idea where you have to first get rid of
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: the grief layer and then you can like finish treating
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: the client.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Oh that's fun.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So again, theme is terrible, but the game itself
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: is actually very cool and very very well designed. I
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: really like how they worked everything together, and it's actually
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: really fun to like try and plan, like, Okay, if
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: I take this action, that'll cause this cascade of things
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: that'll happen, and I'll get all these cool bonuses along
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: the way because I set it up beforehand or something.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: That's pretty much it, and I really like it. It's
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: a cool game. So if you're interested in checking out
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: a game that's going to take up your whole entire
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: table and look very intimidating but ultimately be pretty fun
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: and easy to pick up, it's called Unconscious Mind. It's
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: from Lucky Games, and I think Fantasia Games of the
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: two publishers on that very cool. I love that sweet
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: all right, If you would like to tell us about
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: board games or hotline, T and T or other bands,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: or if you would like to chime in with your
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: thoughts on tipping and anything that we've talked about in
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: this episode. We did take some somewhat controversial stances, but
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: really try to do so in the context of supporting
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: humans ultimately, Like it sounds like we weren't in some places.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: Probably when we say like no, taxes on tips, probably
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: not a good idea, but we did really try and
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: think of like big picture, like how is this going
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: to help or hurt people in the long run? And
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: if you have thoughts about that, you can email us
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: directly at info at WWDWWD podcast dot com or on
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: the social media platforms and we do look forward to
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: hearing from you. But as I said, if you would
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: like to go leave us a five star writing that
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: really helps us get into other people's feeds and then
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: we get more listeners and then they get to learn
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: things too.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: I think that is what I have to say. Is
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: there anything that I'm missing or that you'd like to
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: add before we wrap up today?
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: I got nothing else.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: All right, let's end Tipping together everybody. This is Abraham.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: YY, this is Shane.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: We're out. So.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you've been listening to Why we do what we do.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day.