Latest / The Future Herd / 34: Biomanufacturing Is the Next Agricultural Superpower Play with John Rafferty

Transcript

34: Biomanufacturing Is the Next Agricultural Superpower Play with John Rafferty · The Future Herd

0:00
Jesse Hirsh: Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch.
0:03
Welcome to the Future Herd.
0:11
What if the next great chapter for Canadian agriculture isn't just about
0:16
what we grow, but what we build from it?
0:20
We talk a lot on this show about the pressures facing the AgriFood
0:24
sector, trade disruptions, climate volatility, supply chain
0:29
fragility, and those are real.
0:32
But every once in a while, a conversation comes along that reframes
0:36
the entire picture that shifts you from managing risk to seeing
0:41
genuine generational opportunity.
0:44
And today's conversation is one of those.
0:47
My guest is John Rafferty, the president and CEO of Ontario Genomics.
0:53
When most of us hear the word genomics, our eyes probably glaze over a little.
0:59
It sounds like something happening far away in a lab by nerds in white coats,
1:04
not something that touches a farmer's bottom line or a rural community's future.
1:10
But John changes that.
1:12
What Ontario genomics is working towards is something called biomanufacturing.
1:18
The idea that we can take agricultural inputs like corn, dairy, byproducts,
1:23
biomass, and instead of shipping them out or processing the way the way
1:28
we always have, we can ferment them, transform them, manufacture everything
1:34
from bioplastics to food colourants to proteins, circular, renewable, and
1:41
rooted right here in Canada's soil.
1:44
John came to this sector, not as a scientist, but as a leader.
1:49
He's reinvented himself across financial services, telecom,
1:54
and the charitable sector.
1:55
And now he's asking a question that I think every person in this industry
2:00
should be contemplating themselves.
2:03
Canada has the land, the water, the clean energy, and the talent.
2:08
So what's stopping us from becoming a superpower?
2:13
Yes, we often brag about our agricultural muscle, but what
2:18
about advanced biomanufacturing?
2:21
Taking that agricultural foundation and upgrading it, not just for the
2:27
global market, but for an entirely new sustainable circular civilization.
2:33
Sounds a little crazy, but entirely grounded in contemporary science.
2:40
And that's where we focus today's conversation.
2:44
Alright, let's hit it.
2:48
John, welcome to the Future Herd.
2:51
John Rafferty: Thank you for having me.
2:53
Jesse Hirsh: Now I like to start every episode with a kind of ritual.
2:57
It's sort of an abstract question I'd like to throw to our guests.
3:00
There's no wrong answer, and it's what does the future mean to you?
3:07
John Rafferty: Wow.
3:08
Uh, there's, it's always a challenging question.
3:11
I knew you were gonna ask it as well.
3:13
Um, so, uh, I, I think the future has, uh, a number of things.
3:18
Uh, for me, uh, the future is about hope.
3:23
The future is about unity.
3:25
Um, I, I think the future is about, uh, sustainability, uh, respect.
3:32
Uh, I think there are things that we've lost, from society and there
3:38
are things that kind of as human race evolves and we accelerate that maybe
3:44
gone two or three steps further and need a step back every once in a while.
3:48
Um, and I think that we're approaching a kind of, a bit of a place of
3:54
reflection where I think, uh, that would be, would be a good thing to do.
3:59
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
3:59
Very powerful.
4:00
Now, part of the reason of course, we wanted to have you on the show is to dig
4:06
into genomics, and not just the kind of, uh, broader genre, but in particular the
4:11
exciting role that it is currently playing and will play within the AgriFood sector.
4:18
But a, a natural follow up to kind of get into the, the category of, uh,
4:23
origin stories is, is how did you get involved in agriculture in AgriFood?
4:27
And I ask that 'cause you do have quite a diverse, uh, uh, experience
4:32
both in terms of leadership, but also in terms of different sectors and,
4:37
you know, genomics in particular is not necessarily a place for beginners.
4:43
Uh, so I, I'm curious what, what drew you to the sector, uh, in
4:47
general in genomics in particular?
4:51
John Rafferty: So, so this is I, I guess John version four or kind of
4:55
reinvention or reincarnation 4.0.
4:58
Um, uh, in terms of careers, um, I, uh, uh, I started in what would be called
5:05
financial services and, uh, then I spent a time within the telecom, organisations.
5:11
Um, then I ran, ran a very large, uh, one of Canada's largest and oldest
5:16
charities, um, uh, and leaving there, having been there for almost 16 years
5:24
in the end, or actually a little, little over 16, I, I wanted something that
5:28
would of bring startup entrepreneurship with my business leadership and my
5:35
experience working from a policy and a government regulations perspective.
5:41
And, you know, I'm not a scientist.
5:44
Um, you can ask me lots of things about genomics and, and I've
5:47
got a very good broad knowledge.
5:50
Um, we're on the verge of needing to commercialise a lot of what genomics is
5:56
has been producing over the last 25 years.
5:59
And while as an organisation, inter Genomics is now with our new
6:04
strategic plan said, we actually have two quite distinct missions.
6:09
One is in the world of precision health, the human side of rare diseases and
6:13
diagnostics and therapeutics, and the other is in food and industrial biotech.
6:18
It's in the way in which we can, um, stop being an extraction based society from a
6:27
manufacturing stop extracting, uh, from the earth and start doing things in a
6:33
circular way, start biomanufacturing.
6:36
Um, and a lot of research says that 60% of everything that humans
6:41
consume can be bio manufactured.
6:44
and if it, if its origin is from agriculture or biomass input, then
6:50
it can then on a circular basis go back into, into the earth as well.
6:55
And, and that kind of circular economy.
6:58
Uh, you know, I'm, uh, I'm not a closet environmentalist.
7:02
I'm an environmentalist.
7:03
I, I believe very fundamentally that, um, we need to, uh, focus on
7:12
a healthy planet moving forward.
7:15
shifting from extraction based manufacturing to circular manufacturing
7:20
is, I think a huge opportunity.
7:23
Jesse Hirsh: go ahead, Jen.
7:25
Jenn: Yeah, I have a couple of questions, John.
7:27
Um, I guess the first question I wanna bring back to farmers, and when we
7:33
talk about genomics, it can be kind of a, um, an unknown, which has the
7:39
potential then to be a bit scary.
7:41
So why should farmers care about genomics as part of their business?
7:46
John Rafferty: So I think that there are two, two places
7:48
where genomics plays a role.
7:50
It plays a role within traditional, uh, elements of farming.
7:54
So as our climate changes, as a profile of that changes, um, the risk profile
8:01
of pests, the risk profile of droughts, um, you know, there are things that
8:06
are be, that we are funding as an organisation, um, uh, research projects
8:11
that are looking at how to make crops more frost resistant, how to make crops
8:16
more drought resistant, how to help with, um, uh, with milk production levels
8:23
in, in, in, uh, uh, in dairy herds.
8:26
Um, so there is this traditional genomics world, um, uh, that has
8:32
had lots of breakthroughs, um, that farmers would be quite familiar with.
8:36
Um, and there are more to come, you know, and, and I think looking, going
8:43
down to the microbial health of soil, which is fundamental to all farmers,
8:48
whatever farming you're doing, um, and understanding the, the genomics
8:53
of, of soil, uh, and all of the microbes that are in it, um, is a
8:59
really, really, uh, fundamental piece.
9:01
So that, that's why farmers should be interested on, on that side.
9:05
what genomics is also presenting now is the ability for us to take a biomass
9:13
input, whether it's, um, lactose off, off of dairy or acid whe from a dairy
9:19
production, whether it's things as fundamental as corn or, or other inputs
9:23
from, from, um, uh, from grain growers.
9:26
Uh, and we can, we can bio manufacture, we can ferment using yeasts usually.
9:33
Um, uh, we, we are using the biomass as a form of sugar, um, uh, in that
9:39
sense, uh, of fermenting to produce almost anything we want from bioplastics
9:44
to to food colourants to proteins, um, not to compete with agriculture.
9:51
'cause that's not what it does.
9:52
It's to, it's to complement.
9:54
And I think there's a huge opportunity in Canada for our
9:58
farming community to understand how can they diversify revenue streams?
10:02
How can they, you know, create more value per acre by, um, us being able to
10:09
explore the, um, the biomanufacturing, uh, elements of fermentation.
10:16
and we've done it in our past with kind of fundamentals like ethanol.
10:20
Um, but we can do it in so many more ways because of genomics.
10:23
Now.
10:25
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and you were suggesting that on some levels you're
10:27
not competing with agriculture, but allow me to tease out your, the kind
10:32
of, uh, assertion of a circular economy.
10:36
what extent are we creating alternatives to the petroleum industry, to plastics,
10:40
to, you know, some of the more extractive industries that I, I, I think we do
10:45
want to be, at least speaking for myself, reducing our reliance upon.
10:49
I, I'd love for you to elaborate on that.
10:53
John Rafferty: Yeah.
10:53
So I mean, absolutely.
10:55
I think that this, this is all, you know, complimentary to the agricultural, um,
11:01
and additive to the agricultural industry.
11:03
Uh, I suppose if it's competitive, it's competitive with petroleum,
11:07
um, uh, you know, uh, that kind of, that's a finite resource.
11:12
Um, I think that there, it would, would take decades and decades for, for that
11:17
to be viewed by the petroleum industry as something that's competitive.
11:21
But we need to stop extracting and wherever we can, replace, um, petroleum
11:29
with a biomass input, which is circular in its nature, then, then we have an
11:36
obligation, I think, to explore that.
11:38
Um, ultimately, commercial markets work on a cost per unit.
11:43
Um, a lot of the things we're talking about, just like they are in all elements
11:47
of, of the farming world are commodities that have a price, um, and they have
11:52
input costs, uh, and production costs.
11:55
And biomanufacturing is no different.
11:59
we're up against competing with what has been, you know, a hundred years worth of
12:05
developing and perfecting the economics of petroleum based manufacturing of product.
12:11
So it's not gonna be an overnight, just like it wasn't an overnight to
12:15
create solar energy or, or wind energy.
12:18
Um, you know, the cost per, um, uh, per unit, uh, initially of creating,
12:26
uh, energy that way was huge factor over that of traditional, uh, methods.
12:33
Now it's, uh, it's a very competitive industry and we're starting to see
12:39
an acceleration of movement away from, uh, energy, uh, electricity
12:44
production, uh, involving finite resources and into renewable.
12:48
and I think hopefully the same will be the case for, for all of our nylons
12:52
and polyesters and our plastics, um, that we currently make using petroleum.
12:58
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and, and that kind of nicely circles back to your earlier point
13:02
about the, not just focus, but I suppose challenge around commercialisation.
13:07
That, you know, commercialisation is obviously a key component of enabling
13:13
this kind of advanced manufacturing, but it has historically also been
13:18
something that Canada and Ontario in particular has a, a mixed track record on.
13:23
So what are some of the challenges?
13:26
What are some of the opportunities, what are some of the things that
13:29
Ontario Genomics in particular kind of sees as game changing when
13:33
it comes to improving the kind of commercialisation that is required to
13:38
en enable the kind of infrastructure and industry that you're describing?
13:44
John Rafferty: Yeah, so, so we, we produced the, the second version
13:47
of a report called the Food Food Innovation Report, um, in 2025.
13:51
It was launched in, at the end of March, 2025.
13:55
Uh, and it speaks broadly to, um, to innovations across the sector.
14:00
Uh, and, and it calls out two things that are needed in
14:03
Ontario and and across Canada.
14:06
Um, and that is the ability for companies that are creating these
14:10
technologies to be able to scale, um, uh, in a meaningful way.
14:16
And the ability for regulators to keep up with, with novel ingredients, um,
14:22
uh, you know, in, in a way that makes sure that our regulatory framework
14:26
isn't getting in the way of innovation.
14:29
Uh, uh, and, and regulations are there for a reason.
14:32
And I'm not saying we, we need to get rid of all regulations.
14:34
I'm just saying we need to make sure that they don't become an
14:38
undue barrier, um, to innovation.
14:41
Uh, the control, the initial controllable piece of that is the ability to scale.
14:47
Um, on, uh, I referred a little while ago to the fact that we have two missions
14:52
within the precision health world.
14:54
Uh, they're discovering molecules for a therapeutic that have
14:59
a huge value per microgram.
15:02
Right?
15:02
They, that scaling in that kind of very, um, uh, intense, uh, and precise
15:09
way is, is, you know, people want to produce hundreds of grammes of something
15:15
if you're producing a sweetener, um, using, uh, you know, uh, input from,
15:21
uh, from a grain grower, uh, you are competing against sugar, which has a spot
15:27
market of whatever it is at the moment.
15:29
It's about a dollar Canadian per kilogramme.
15:32
so if, if, if you're producing that, you need to produce hundreds of kilogrammes
15:38
for sampling, not hundreds of grammes.
15:42
So the, the, the need that we have in Canada writ large, there are, there are
15:46
a few pockets where we do have this, but uh, in Ontario we don't is the ability
15:51
for our innovators, um, and startup companies to be able to move up the
15:58
progression of scale so that they're producing hundreds of kilogrammes and can
16:03
start demonstrating their unit economics.
16:07
'cause at the end of the day, if you're a food manufacturer and you are interested
16:11
in one of these bio manufactured products, it's still gotta compete on price.
16:16
Um, with what you currently have, we can wax poetic about how important it
16:21
is to have something that's circular economy based versus extraction
16:25
based, but it's still gotta on price.
16:28
Um, and that's kind of a real that, that we are currently
16:32
working to, to, uh, try and solve.
16:36
Jenn: So, John, you said something really interesting there.
16:38
You said in other areas there is this capacity to have innovators
16:44
scale up, but not in Ontario.
16:47
What is the missing piece in Ontario?
16:49
What is, what's the major roadblock that.
16:51
John Rafferty: is, is biomanufacturing, um, capacity at, at, you know, at a
16:57
thousand litres that is accessible and, uh, priced appropriately.
17:03
Uh, at the moment are startups in Ontario, they, they need to go to,
17:08
uh, to Nova Scotia, or they need to go to Saskatchewan, or they
17:11
need to go to another country.
17:14
so, uh, you know, Ontario's a pretty important, uh, part
17:19
of the Canadian economy.
17:20
It's got a huge AgriFood Um, and, uh, we, we've got a lot of the innovators are
17:28
based here in Ontario, and so we're, we're looking to solve that particular gap.
17:34
Jesse Hirsh: is that a capital issue or is that a regulatory issue?
17:39
John Rafferty: Uh, at the moment it's a capital issue.
17:40
Um, you know, the more companies we have that are able to start
17:44
scaling, then they're gonna start putting pressure on the regulators.
17:47
Um, but the, you know, the regulating regulat, the regulatory issues are
17:54
in terms of speed and process, but they're not, you know, hugely onerous.
17:59
It's not, it's not that that's a, you know, a barrier.
18:02
It's not a missing thing.
18:04
It just is something that we've got to constantly pay attention to, uh,
18:11
to make sure that we don't, um, we don't discount innovative products.
18:16
Um.
18:18
Jesse Hirsh: So let me, let me ask you a, a what may be a digression, but at the
18:22
same time may bring us also to a, another way to approach some of these subjects
18:28
and some of the challenges you're facing.
18:30
know, you, you sort of, when we talk about regulation in general, it tends
18:34
to be a through line through a lot of conversations in the AgriFood
18:39
sector, partly because I think we are in a moment where we are
18:43
rethinking regulatory environments.
18:45
We are think rethinking the, the nature of, of regulations that apply both to
18:52
a, a changing global market, but also a, a rapid rate of technological change.
18:57
That's part of the point of genomics is we now have access to technology that
19:02
I, I think our current regulatory, uh, uh, environment just didn't anticipate.
19:08
But you've alluded a couple times to the dual mandate that your
19:12
organisation has that on the one hand, you know, I think precision
19:16
medicine is where most people engage.
19:19
Genomics is where the idea of genetics, especially around cancer, uh, uh,
19:24
uh, kind of hits home for people.
19:26
But obviously when it comes to food, health and safety is also a factor.
19:31
there an opportunity here to have both sides from a regulatory perspective,
19:36
collaborating so that you can not only be proactive either in the aspirational
19:42
sense of self-regulation or just in the sense of leadership of, of helping the
19:48
regulatory environment kind of upgrade, you have the people who are experienced
19:53
in navigating the medical regulatory environment, but also focusing on not
19:59
doing harm and looking at health effects compared to the other people who are
20:03
looking at productivity and prosperity and efficiency and optimization.
20:09
there an opportunity for Ontario genomics to kind of play both sides
20:13
of that and create a unique form of expertise, especially when it comes to
20:19
leading, uh, uh, uh, in an area like regulation that can be very contentious.
20:25
John Rafferty: Yeah, no, I, I think you, you're spot on there.
20:27
I think that, that we, we need to learn the lessons from both sides, uh, of our
20:32
missions, um, to make sure that, that we're bringing, we're bringing what
20:37
we learn on the, on the therapeutic and diagnostic size of how, how to get
20:41
something, um, approved in Canada, uh, to the other side of the ledger as well
20:46
for Genomics, other side of the ledger.
20:49
Um, I, I think it's, uh, you know, anytime anything touches our food,
20:55
whether it's the packaging that's made by something different, we need to make sure
20:59
health and safety is really important.
21:01
And, and Canada is, has got a stellar reputation for, uh, for its standards.
21:07
Um, it, it, as I said, I don't think regulation in and of itself is a
21:12
challenge, but we need to move at speed.
21:16
Um, the, the more things, uh, are moving faster, it just creates challenge.
21:22
Um, and, uh, in and of itself, it isn't a problem.
21:26
But speed to market is, is a thing.
21:29
Uh, and we, we don't want unnecessary barriers or lags, um, uh, in, in the way.
21:37
Jesse Hirsh: where does complexity, uh, fall into that?
21:40
And, and sorry to preempt you, Jen, and, and hopefully you'll, you'll jump in and
21:45
I say complexity both on the regulatory sense, but really I'm coming back to
21:50
you as a leader and as a communicator.
21:53
Because on the one hand, it strikes me that genomics as a science and,
21:58
and certainly within the concept of an applied technology, us to engage
22:03
in greater complexity, allows us to entertain greater complexity.
22:08
How do you communicate that complexity?
22:11
To what extent is that complexity just par for the course, or is it another dynamic
22:17
to manage either on the regulatory end or to your point on the speed, on the getting
22:23
things to market, finding ways to scale?
22:26
I, I, I may be imagining, uh, that complexity as something that plays a
22:31
role here, but it, it just strikes me as a, a, a being a, a core element of
22:36
the environment that we're describing.
22:39
John Rafferty: So it, it, it, I mean, I think your point there, there are com
22:43
complex pieces to this, but our, role is to talk about what the outcome that
22:50
we're looking for is, and to make sure we have clarity on the outcome, which is
22:54
really simple on the precision health.
22:57
You talk about, you know, uh, diagnostic and therapeutic
22:59
pointing to a particular thing.
23:01
We know, we know what the North Star is from a patient's perspective.
23:05
Um, we, we need to clearly communicate what the North Star is
23:10
within the Biomanufacturing world.
23:12
I think it's, it's easier and clearer to talk about that on things like
23:16
bioplastics, the ability for us to, to eliminate petroleum and, and the, the
23:22
ongoing increase of microplastics in the environment by producing plastics that,
23:29
that, uh, that are bio manufactured, I think has a lot of clarity.
23:34
Are there complexities in order to make that happen?
23:37
Yes.
23:38
Uh, our job is as we, we sit as a convener between the amazing people
23:44
that are the innovators and the kind of the regulators and the markets.
23:49
Um, and as that convener, as that trusted intermediary, our job is to
23:55
be clear in, in why it's important to clear on what the North Star is.
24:01
Uh, and, you know, ideally we are able to convince policymakers do a similar
24:08
thing in some of these areas as they did in the area of, of electricity
24:12
production, which is kind of mandating, you know, something as powerful as
24:16
mandating that by a certain date.
24:18
X percent of packaging has to be bio manufactured.
24:22
Um, from a a from a a, not just recyclable, but this is, this is about,
24:28
uh, it being fully biodegradable, um, and, and how we manage it, but we've also
24:34
built a whole infrastructure in how we manage waste at a municipal level, which
24:39
lends itself to different coloured bins.
24:42
Um, and if we're going to change the nature of plastics, then we need
24:46
to change the nature of how we, we manage them because, uh, uh, they,
24:52
they need to be dealt with differently than a petroleum-based plastic.
24:55
So there are lots of complexities, but if the North Star is, technology allows
25:01
it to happen, we're now able to start proving that the unit costs, the costs,
25:06
unit economics is getting close enough to parity that we can now get this across the
25:12
threshold and make a meaningful change the way that we, we bio manufacture versus,
25:19
uh, use extraction, um, manufacturing.
25:23
Jenn: I just have, I just wanna expand the conversation a little bit because
25:26
I like what you were talking about the North Star and getting real clarity
25:30
on the outcomes, and I think in the health field it is a lot easier, but
25:34
when we look at what Ontario Genomics is doing, it's more than just bioplastics.
25:38
You're also looking at cellular agriculture.
25:40
And so how do you go about getting a North star for egg and food when it
25:46
comes to the Ontario Genomics umbrella?
25:48
John Rafferty: And, and, and that's one of the biggest challenges that
25:52
we have as a communications exercise.
25:54
Um, I, I think Jen, to, to your question, we, we deal with,
26:00
um, microbial health of soil.
26:03
We deal with how we can help, um, microbes in water to help
26:07
the extraction of rare minerals.
26:09
We deal with modifications to help protect plants against the climate.
26:15
And, and so the breadth of what we do is so much, how, how do you have
26:20
a single North staff for all of that?
26:22
Because you, you start from a communications perspective, you'll
26:25
start, you're talking about world peace, you know, you're talking about
26:28
this nebulous thing that is, while everyone will agree to it, you know,
26:34
it, it's, it's not precise enough.
26:36
Um, so I think we, we need to define, uh, and start getting successes, you
26:42
know, on a, at a ground level, working with a farmer, a a co, you know, a
26:49
group of farmers in helping diversify revenues, in helping, showing how we
26:54
can start biomanufacturing products that go into our supply chain that
26:59
currently we import, that we talk about things that are, that are, you know, on
27:04
the margins, um, uh, currently because of where they come in the world and
27:10
us being able to buy or manufacture them creates supply chain security.
27:14
And then we can start taking those victories and, and scaling them forward.
27:18
This is not gonna be a, you know, one great campaign and
27:23
everyone knows what we're doing.
27:24
Um, uh, it, it is bit more complicated than that.
27:29
And that's, that's because, you know, there's a genome in
27:32
everything, you know, and, and the way down to the microbial level.
27:36
And, uh, and, and it's a very powerful thing and it is going to be
27:41
kind of the bio era moving forward.
27:43
And I know AI is gonna fuel a lot of that because the genomic research
27:49
is kicking out huge amounts of data.
27:52
and AI is accelerating how quickly we can therefore, and now analyse, interpret,
27:58
and make sense of, uh, all of that data.
28:02
and everything will go faster as a result.
28:05
Jesse Hirsh: I wanna come back to the AI stuff as well as the microbial stuff,
28:10
but to build off Jen's question, I think you and I politically at least certainly
28:15
environmentally, are, are kind of eye to eye and, and I appreciate that you've been
28:20
framing a lot of this within the context of the, our domestic needs in, in, in
28:25
terms of a population who obviously needs to eat and, and, and enjoys a very diverse
28:31
diet that we have to import a lot of.
28:34
But what about the export potential here?
28:36
And, and I say this 'cause I assume that that is very much part of the
28:40
kind of focus of commercialisation.
28:43
And I do think a lot of the AgriFood industry really does think of success
28:49
in the export oriented concept, right?
28:51
Like we, we as an industry really think of, think of it a, a, a
28:56
success within that context.
28:58
So spell out some of the opportunities and, and not just the
29:02
opportunities, but where, where does the com, the global market play?
29:06
Are, are we leaders?
29:07
Are we catching up?
29:08
Are who else in the world is, is kind of developing similar expertise
29:13
or centres of excellence that we should be paying attention to?
29:16
John Rafferty: Yeah.
29:17
Okay.
29:17
Lot, lots of pieces to that and hopefully I'll, I'll weave in an answer
29:21
to all of your comments there, Jesse.
29:23
I think first of all, uh, if you wanted to define and, and rank by potential
29:31
countries in the world that that can play a role as an agriculture superpower, uh,
29:38
and, and therefore a biomanufacturing superpower, you need acreage.
29:43
We've got a lot of acreage in Canada.
29:46
Um, you need, uh, abundance of water.
29:49
We've got an abundance of water.
29:51
You need relatively low cost and clean energy.
29:54
We have low cost, clean energy, like we have always been one of the top countries
30:00
in the world in helping feed the world.
30:02
Um, uh, and, uh, I, I think we have dropped a little bit over the last while
30:07
as a, uh, in terms of global agricultural, um, ranking, but we're still, you
30:12
know, right up there we have all of the ingredients, no pun intended to, to
30:17
be, uh, a, an agricultural superpower.
30:21
The, the question is, do we want to, to.
30:25
Grow crops that we send overseas, or do we want to do something with
30:29
a portion of what we're, what we're growing and expand our acreage so
30:33
that we're also biomanufacturing products that, that go overseas.
30:36
So there is a huge global market for us to be able to be
30:40
a biomanufacturing superpower as well as an agriculture superpower.
30:44
And I think those two things, in my opinion, are the same.
30:47
Um, I, I think that there is a distinction between them, but they, they're both
30:51
using the natural resources of Canada in a circular way to help provide, uh,
30:57
food and ingredients for the world.
31:00
the countries who are doing it best, are countries that are, that
31:05
are starved for land mass they have to be more efficient, more, more
31:11
effective with every acre they have.
31:14
You know, the Netherlands, uh, you know, comes, comes to mind.
31:17
Singapore, um, uh, some of the other Asian countries come to mind.
31:22
You know, I think that we do things very well, but we've got a very
31:27
traditional agricultural export market in terms of what goes, what goes where.
31:33
And we've also been very, very intertwined with, with the us and
31:38
I'm not an international trade expert, but, but I, you know, those
31:43
relationships have been broken.
31:44
Um, with the US there is a huge opportunity for us to expand elsewhere.
31:49
Having said that, the US will always be the biggest market, know, on our doorstep.
31:55
Um, and therefore we also need to take advantage of that market as well.
31:59
We have a lot of what they need.
32:00
So, um, it's a huge export opportunity.
32:03
It's a huge global opportunity.
32:06
And Biomanufacturing, the jobs that come in a bio in, in, in the,
32:10
in scaled biomanufacturing, they kind of look like jobs that are in
32:14
an automotive plant in many ways.
32:17
You know, like the, these are, you know, there, there, there are thousands and
32:21
thousands of jobs that can be created in Ontario, in the Biomanufacturing sector.
32:26
Um, and I think that those are, are, are some of the jobs of the future.
32:31
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
32:32
And that actually me to kind of ask the AI question, uh, kind of building off the
32:39
answers you've been giving in terms of building an ecosystem, building a culture
32:44
of commercialisation, of scale, of, of focusing on export oriented markets.
32:50
I mean, o obviously one of the strongest assets that we have here in Ontario are,
32:55
are post-secondary institutions, right?
32:58
Whether it's Guelph Kitchen or Waterloo, Toronto.
33:01
I mean, we, we have some of the best and, and brightest minds in the world.
33:06
But on the commercialisation level, to your point about the United
33:10
States, we are often heavily reliant upon their technology industry.
33:17
What role is Ontario Genomics trying to play when it comes to the AI side?
33:23
And I don't mean so much the technology angle, I mean the commercialisation angle.
33:28
I mean, kind of taking the phenomenal research that is happening at our
33:32
universities and weaving it into the industry or to your earlier evocation,
33:38
allowing entrepreneurs to create new companies and scale up those companies.
33:45
the business angle of the technology piece?
33:47
Or, or even if you want the policy or regulatory angle.
33:51
'cause I suspect they're also factors.
33:54
Kind of help me understand, to your point, not just the role that AI is playing, but
34:00
that what we need it to play in terms of the threads of our conversation that you,
34:05
you've so eloquently been bringing up.
34:08
John Rafferty: Well, I, I think, um, there are a couple of
34:11
points that you bring up there.
34:12
So a ai, there isn't a project that we're helping fund or a company that
34:17
we're, we provide funding into that isn't using AI within, its within its work.
34:22
You know, some, some more overtly than others.
34:26
But, uh, it, it is a part of how we accelerate the discovery and the
34:31
learnings, whether it's at, at, you know, within the, the lab discovery
34:37
side, or whether it's in the process engineering side of, of understanding
34:41
how we can be more effective and more efficient to, to drive, uh,
34:45
unit costs to where they need to be.
34:48
Um, so AI is a huge piece.
34:50
One of the factors in North America, um, that is a truism that, uh, that will
34:56
not go away is that the US market is 11 times bigger than the Canadian market.
35:01
if you have a new company here in Canada, and you are gonna spend some
35:08
money to get something approved for a market, you can choose to do that
35:12
and get it approved in Canada, or you can choose to do that in America.
35:17
and America is 11 times bigger.
35:19
It's not that, you know, it's, there is just an economies of scale.
35:25
Uh, and one of the challenges, and I, I've Canadian since the late 1980s.
35:31
I, I came as a landed immigrant in 1986.
35:34
Um, and, uh, and I, the reason I'm saying that is because whenever I say
35:38
anything that's a tall critical of Canada, I feel that my exit makes it
35:42
things like I'm a foreigner, you know, uh, making a comment and I'm not.
35:46
Um, but you know.
35:49
Canada, if you took not just our landmass, but if you took our economy
35:53
and you dropped it somewhere else in the world, if you dropped it in Europe,
35:57
it would be this really important economy within the European Union.
36:01
If you dropped it over, you know, off the coast of Australia, it would
36:04
be a bigger economy than Australia.
36:07
It would be a powerhouse in that kind of Southeast Asia.
36:10
Um, but because we sit on top of the biggest economy in the
36:14
world, we almost have a bit of a, um, a bit of a self-conscious.
36:18
We are not really that big an economy.
36:20
We we're a huge economy.
36:22
Um, we've got a great market and, um, but we, we have the challenge of proximity
36:29
to the biggest market in the world.
36:31
Um, and I think that plays into things, into the dynamics of, of where
36:36
companies go and how do we keep them in Canada when you've got this much
36:40
bigger market, just a short way away.
36:43
Ontario Genomics plays a role with wraparound support for the companies
36:47
we provide funding with, uh, you know, providing access to an introduction to,
36:52
um, to people in the, in the, in the VC world, in the venture funding, uh, world.
36:57
Um, uh, I think some of the work we are doing in our intake process and
37:01
our wraparound support is done in a way to help de-risk people investing.
37:07
And I think our, our bioc create brand in particular is building a, you know,
37:11
a reputation because of the amazing work that the companies we funded have done.
37:16
I think people are seeing that as a, oh, if, if Ontario Genomics has provided,
37:20
funded through Bioc create, think that maybe that's someone we should look at.
37:24
So hopefully over time we can play a role in that kind of de-risking
37:31
profiling the amazing Canadian, um, startups that we have.
37:35
Jenn: I'm gonna ask you a question.
37:37
It's gonna take us off the AI topic for a moment, but then I think I want to
37:40
come back 'cause I have an AI question.
37:42
But first off, can you talk a little bit about that Bioc Create programme please?
37:46
John Rafferty: Sure.
37:46
Biore is a programme that we launched, uh, years ago.
37:51
Um, uh, we fund, uh, we provide $150,000 worth of non-dilutive funding, uh, to,
37:58
uh, two companies that are, that are post discovery, uh, at that kind of inflexion
38:04
point, uh, generally pre-revenue.
38:06
Um, uh, but their, their product is been, has been validated as,
38:13
as strong, and it's pointing at a market that, um, that has value.
38:18
So don't just write a check and, and, uh, uh, provide it to them.
38:24
And the funding comes from a combination of, um, uh, of the federal and provincial
38:29
government, uh, through, um, through Fed Dev in Ontario as well as, uh, uh, as MQs
38:38
Um, and then we provide 18 months worth of wraparound support, which is a, which
38:43
is a, it's a requirement for the funding that, that people participate in it.
38:50
Um, and, uh, it, it just is got a lot of special source to it when you
38:56
bring those entrepreneurs together.
38:58
So we've got 32 companies now, some of which we just funded.
39:02
So if you look at the first 16 that we funded, they've raised, uh, $98
39:07
million worth of follow on funding now.
39:10
Um, so you know, there's some real winners there.
39:13
Uh, half of those companies are in the food industrial biotech ag space.
39:19
other half are, excuse me, the other half, so half are in the food ag space.
39:26
The other half are in the precision health space.
39:28
So.
39:30
Jesse Hirsh: Go ahead, Jen, you had
39:30
Jenn: Sorry, Jesse and I think are fighting over who asked the next question?
39:33
Jesse Hirsh: the spot with your AI question.
39:35
Please go ahead.
39:37
Jenn: Yeah, so I have a, a bit of a philosophical AI question,
39:43
and it's something that I'm just learning more and more about ai.
39:48
Um, but one of the hesitations I hear from people, or you know, I've been reading
39:56
about is the environmental impact of ai.
39:59
And so when we're using AI to build a circular economy, and yet AI is
40:03
also draining resources, how do we reconcile those two positions?
40:09
John Rafferty: Yeah, I think, um, I feel the same way about the
40:12
environmental footprint of ai.
40:15
Um, and, you know, whe whether you, uh, and I, I, I'm also not sure because of ai,
40:22
which data points to believe or trust more than others, but, you know, the amount
40:26
of trillions of, of, um, uh, requests or, or, um, questions that are being asked
40:34
in the AI world, each of which takes this much water, a very tiny amount, but,
40:39
but it adds up the water consumption, the power consumption, the land, use
40:45
it, it, it's, um, it's pretty scary.
40:48
And how much of it is actually being used for things that are, are enabling,
40:53
you know, humanity, uh, versus creating a different circular challenge, not a
40:58
circular economy, but just circularity and of information and, and misinformation.
41:04
Um, so I, I think societies are starting to think about how do we,
41:10
how do we keep and capture all the things that could be good out of
41:15
AI and, and how do we find a way of partitioning off and discarding the rest?
41:21
And I, I think we're gonna, we're gonna have some significant challenges
41:26
along the way where it's gonna go off the rails, uh, on some things.
41:30
Um, but humanity finds ways to, to reign that in.
41:34
Um, sometimes it, you know, it's after something terrible has
41:39
happened that that allows us to realise that hopefully we can, we
41:43
can avoid the, that type of a thing.
41:45
Um, but I, I think that within closed data sets, like genomic data, know,
41:53
looking at, uh, uh, at how we can come up with a new therapeutic for a particular
42:00
disease needs to be enhanced and needs to be used, there's value in how AI
42:06
can, can accelerate that discovery.
42:09
Um, in, in other areas, we've gotta recognise the environmental footprint of
42:15
AI itself what things just don't justify the, the negative environmental impact.
42:21
So, uh, it's, it's challenging 'cause agree.
42:26
We're speaking out both sides of our mouth we say AI's doing these amazing things to
42:31
help us create a better circular economy.
42:34
But what's, what's, uh, the environmental impact of the AI that we are using?
42:40
Jesse Hirsh: And you know, you, your answers today have been, uh, fantastic,
42:45
both in terms of, to that last point, uh, acknowledging the nuance and,
42:50
uh, complexity of a lot of these situations while still having the,
42:55
the optimism, the hope to, to see a better future that permits me to, uh,
43:00
uh, uh, throw an even more advanced, uh, contentious question your way.
43:06
intellectual property obviously plays a, a key role both on the
43:11
commercialisation side, but also, uh, uh, on the research side.
43:16
You know, while AI is, is often criticised in terms of the copyright
43:21
elements, in terms of training, you know, putting that stuff aside, about
43:27
the reverse engineering side of ai?
43:30
And, and I say this because I think we are still trying to wrap our heads,
43:35
especially some of the latest frontier models like, uh, anthropics, uh, mythos.
43:42
To what extent does the intellectual property elements does the
43:47
intellectual property protection the environment, both of capital
43:52
funding and of regulation relation?
43:56
H how does that become complicated?
43:59
How do some of the, the communities that you're involved in, the
44:03
companies that they're starting, do they worry about this stuff?
44:07
Do they worry about protecting their intellectual property?
44:10
and again, from a sectoral perspective, from Ontario or a Canada
44:15
perspective, how do we be proactive?
44:18
How do we anticipate that?
44:19
How do we on the one hand, enable the kind of research collaboration
44:24
that we have that is required?
44:26
Well, on the same time anticipating the intellectual property challenges and the
44:32
competitive advantages that any advanced technology like this would encounter.
44:38
John Rafferty: So you're asking, it's a huge philosophical
44:42
question that's in there as well.
44:43
And I, I, I mean, I think we can, from six years ago, point to a
44:49
galvanising issue that was global in its nature in, in COVID-19.
44:54
Uh, and the need for us to, to use genomic research and, and researchers around
45:01
the world to say, we, we need a vaccine.
45:04
and I think that we know when we have to, we can, it's a shame that we can't
45:12
just say, Hey, that works really well.
45:13
Why don't we do that for lots of other human issues that we face?
45:18
Um, but we don't, we, we've, we, we get these, um, protectionist,
45:24
um, market-based views of how do I create more value for me?
45:29
You use the word open source.
45:31
Um, you know, you, you're gonna make me wanna start talking about Star Trek and,
45:36
um, kind of the, the kind of the ultimate kind of what, what do we want to create
45:42
as, as a, as a society of humans globally?
45:46
Um, and we're a long way from, from that, but, you know, we, we do need to
45:54
a landing place for, um, how, how AI moves forward in a way that is a tool
46:04
that humans use and is enabling more humanity, um, some sort of a combative,
46:13
anti-human tool that's going to take jobs and, you know, anyway, so you,
46:19
you, there are lots of camps on it.
46:21
I don't pretend to be an AI expert.
46:23
Um, I'm sure I, I, I hear many of the things you do, but probably not as many.
46:28
Um, but I think that you've got CEOs of the large, you know, mega corporations
46:36
are either gonna approach this as a way of eliminating jobs and driving more money
46:42
into their pocket, or as a tool that's gonna allow them to grow employment and a
46:47
quality for the people who work for them.
46:50
there was, uh, I think it was Walmart, CEO that made, made a, a quote about
46:55
that, you know, that this is going to enable them to employ more people, um,
46:59
uh, versus other companies that say this is gonna allow them to cut jobs.
47:04
Uh, it, it, it is, the potential to be equal parts good or bad?
47:11
Um, let's keep the good and throw the bad away.
47:16
It's an over simple way of saying it, but uh.
47:20
Jesse Hirsh: Now we, we are, uh, uh, getting close to the end of time.
47:23
I, I have a few more questions I want to ask.
47:25
This is me also probing Jen to jump in if she has more questions to ask.
47:30
I, I, I've been wanting to come back to the microbial piece only because it
47:35
is, uh, an area of interest to mine.
47:38
'cause I do find it fascinating.
47:41
To what extent, and, and this is me coming back to the literacy piece
47:45
and kind of your role as a leader kind of communicating these issues to
47:50
other leaders, to society as a whole.
47:54
extent is genomic literacy and microbial literacy connected?
48:01
And I say this because both are obviously a lot smaller than us, and
48:06
I think certainly in my lifetime, we're getting to a point where we're
48:10
starting to value those tiny things.
48:13
We're starting to recognise that there are systems that we can't immediately
48:17
scrutinise that are incredibly powerful, incredibly impactful.
48:24
Do me a favour and, and, and help me try to connect these two, and, and, and
48:28
whether you see a connection in terms of fostering the awareness, especially
48:33
amongst decision makers, as to why the work that you guys are doing at
48:38
Ontario Genomics is so important both near term, but more importantly also
48:44
to, as you've been evoking throughout our conversation towards the long term.
48:48
John Rafferty: Yeah, I think so.
48:49
F first of all, the word genomics for 99 point whatever percent of people,
48:56
um, kind of makes them glassy-eyed and, you know, not want to listen
49:00
to the rest of your sentence.
49:02
Um, so, which is a, which is a challenge.
49:05
Um, and those who, three of us and others who have dug into and know, and I'm not
49:11
a scientist, so I I'm not saying this from that perspective, but understand
49:15
the power of, uh, uh, of knowledge that we can get through, through the, of
49:20
genomics and therefore turn that into action that is powerful and positive.
49:25
I mean, we, we have known in our history that we don't want to plant the same crop
49:31
in the same field two years in a row, and if we rotate them effectively, that, so
49:36
we've had this kind of innate knowledge of, of how we create healthy soil.
49:42
Um, how can we make that more precise over time?
49:46
I think some of the fundamentals are, are and always will be there.
49:50
Um, but the, the power at the microbial level is, is incredibly important.
49:57
Um, and whether it's the, the health of the soil or whether it's the ability
50:02
for us to kind of do bioremediation work, um, in, in other areas, whether
50:08
it's about, you know, recognising new pathogens, new threats, um, uh, for
50:14
disease that are coming into the soil.
50:16
So, uh, you know, I, I think you know, we care, it, uh, Ontario
50:23
genomics, we, we care about the molecule, um, and not many people do.
50:30
Um, and so it is a difficult narrative to break through.
50:35
Um, I am, I am a convert because, you know, I, I came into this world 15 months
50:42
ago, uh, and every day I learn more.
50:46
Um, uh, I'm, I'm blessed to have an amazing team of, of
50:51
people who truly understand it.
50:53
Um, and, and I think that the, know, what we learned from, you know,
51:00
from COVID is what, what will, what will kill us or make us healthy is,
51:06
is gonna be a molecule somewhere.
51:08
Um, so we, we need to understand it.
51:12
Um, uh, yeah, so I, I think, um, I think the, the future is very bright
51:17
when it comes to turning the corner on putting the importance of, uh,
51:23
soil health and microbial health.
51:25
Um, uh, there, I think it's important at a human level.
51:29
We talk a lot more now about our, our gut health and our microbial health.
51:33
Um, so that narrative's happening, it will become, um.
51:38
Kind of more ubiquitous.
51:40
I think that 20 years ago, genomics was a really specialised field.
51:46
Now it is almost a part of everything.
51:49
You know, there isn't it?
51:50
It it was a thing and now it's a part of everything.
51:53
And I think that's a good thing.
51:56
uh, so we, we maybe need to speak about it less and just do it more.
52:01
Jesse Hirsh: Well, and if anything, to kind of validate your role.
52:03
I think part of the reason there is a legacy of people thinking that the
52:07
molecular is boring is 'cause there haven't been enough outsiders brought
52:12
in to become part of the ecosystem to become insiders, to become communicators.
52:17
So that, I I, if anything speaks to, to more people like yourself
52:22
engaged, uh, you know, very briefly.
52:26
Yeah, very briefly.
52:27
'cause we are almost outta time.
52:29
You know, the, the second last question I like to ask people is, you know, if,
52:33
if, if you had organizationally all the resources you had, you could have, if
52:38
you had access to the right people in power, what would be the kind of policies,
52:44
what, what would be the kind of broad frameworks or even, you know, kind of
52:48
broad regulations in, in a kind of blue sky scenario would, would really make
52:54
a difference for not just Ontario, but the Canadian, uh, uh, genomics industry.
53:00
John Rafferty: Yeah, I think I, I think that, uh, we, we would have a
53:04
network across the country of, of bios scaling facilities for people that are
53:10
discovering we would be talking to and listening more to industry and to farmers.
53:17
So, so the two ends of the equation, we sit in the middle, um, about what problems
53:24
need to be solved and, and, uh, hopefully we're having more and more dialogue, um,
53:30
as an organisation with both those sides.
53:33
So we create challenges of things that we need to solve together when, whenever
53:39
humans are faced with a challenge to solve, and you bring people into a
53:43
table saying, we want to solve this.
53:46
Um, and, and I, you know, whether it's a, a, a food ingredient that we are a
53:52
hundred percent of an importer for, that we can start building our own capacity
53:57
for, and therefore de-risk supply chains, whether it's something like plastics or
54:01
nylons where we currently, the process, um, is, uh, is, uh, petroleum based and
54:07
extraction based, and we can turn it into circular or whether it's something
54:11
that's chemical additive, something that has hugely negative, uh, impacts.
54:16
We've, we've seen a recent transformation in the area of food colourants.
54:21
Um, the future of food colourants is bio manufactured.
54:25
We have a, a great Ontario based company that does that, um, that we funded
54:29
through bio, uh, through Bioc create.
54:31
Um, and so looking at a challenge-based way to solve it, if we had the resources,
54:37
um, and ability to do that, we would also, at the policy level have some things that
54:42
would mandate targets and dates similar to things that we've done on the, uh, on the
54:48
power generation electricity side, that by this date percent of these chemicals
54:56
will be eliminated from food production.
54:58
That, uh, you know, that food colourants will be eliminated.
55:01
That, that all food packaging will be, um, uh, bioplastics.
55:07
Uh, so the, the things that we would do would, would move a lot
55:12
faster, um, if we had the resources.
55:15
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
55:16
Uh, Jen, any final questions?
55:19
So the last question, uh, that I tend to end on, it's kind of like
55:23
the first, it's meant to be intuitive kind of gut response, but who, who
55:28
are the people that you look up to?
55:31
Who are the people that you follow, uh, could be living, could be
55:34
dead, uh, that you think the rest of us, uh, should be tuning into?
55:39
John Rafferty: So I, I have a lot of places I'm gonna start with someone
55:42
who's dead and not necessarily a person I look up to, but kind of philosophically.
55:46
Uh, Raja Kipling, uh, wrote a poem, uh, titled if, and I think if we
55:51
had more people that adhered, it's, it's written in a male gender,
55:56
but put it into a neutral gender.
55:58
'cause it was written a hundred years ago now.
56:01
Um, uh, if, if all of us spoke to each other the right way, if we cared about
56:07
each other the right way, and if we put 60 seconds worth of effort into every
56:12
minute, um, so philosophically, I think that would land us in a great place.
56:17
Um, I, I feel that, um, you know, we, we need to talk more.
56:26
We need to engage in conversation more.
56:29
Um, I have spent a, a lot of time trying to increase my knowledge into the, into
56:35
the farming world, uh, from the Ottawa Valley, um, uh, you know, which is, uh,
56:42
a real bed of farm farming communities.
56:44
We've got such an amazing network of, of a hundred acre farmers in Ontario.
56:50
Yes, we've got large farmers as well, but that kind of a hundred acre plot,
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whether, whether it's, uh, it's dairy or beef, or whether it's mixed use or, or
56:59
grain, um, you know, I, I think that's just something we need to tap into more.
57:05
Um, and I'm looking forward to, to this learning journey, this kind of
57:09
phase four of my, uh, of my journey.
57:13
Um, and, uh, hopefully I can become a really good storyteller in this area and,
57:18
and therefore bring policy makers along, bring the funding that we need along.
57:23
Um, we don't need as an organisation to be the solution.
57:27
We, we need things to be solved and whatever role we can play
57:31
is what, what we will do.
57:33
Jesse Hirsh: Right on.
57:34
Fantastic.
57:34
Thank you.
57:36
John Rafferty: Thank you.
57:38
Jesse Hirsh: Thank you, John, for what was a fantastic, uh, conversation and another
57:44
really inspiring episode that for me at least pushes a lot of the stereotypes that
57:52
we think of when it comes to AgriFood.
57:55
I'll acknowledge that I like to take on the role of the agent provocateur.
58:00
I try to ask questions and kind of push the envelope of discussion to areas
58:07
that provoke thought that, uh, allow us to not only engage our curiosity,
58:13
but take on the moral responsibility of finding better ways of doing things.
58:19
And what I really enjoyed about John's perspective is the way in which he
58:25
fuses the kind of radical elements that science allows us to entertain with
58:33
the responsible elements of research and sustainability and enterprise.
58:39
And that's where, again, I feel that the domain of AgriFood affords
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us a certain privilege when it comes to imagining the future.
58:48
A, a kind of empowerment, a, a kind of collaboration that's
58:54
rarely seen in other sectors, rarely seen in society as a whole.
58:59
And it speaks to what we're trying to do here on the Future Herd, which is
59:03
bring together different perspectives, bring together different elements of
59:08
Canada's food system so that we can all learn from each other so that we can
59:13
become the kind of global superpower, the, the kind of global force for
59:18
good that many of us are motivated by.
59:22
And that if anything, our chaotic world kind of mandates.
59:26
So thanks again to John.
59:28
Thanks again to Jen, uh, who is really turning into a fantastic cohost.
59:34
Uh, Jen, of course, deserves credit for producing, uh, today's episode.
59:39
And we've got a, uh, great set of panels coming up that I think
59:43
will further augment what we're doing, uh, here on the future herd.
59:48
So thanks again.
59:49
Uh, if you're enjoying the show, give us a rating, share it with your
59:53
friends, and we'll see you soon for another episode of the Future Herd.