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Conservation Is About Collaboration And Balean Is All About Collaboration · How To Protect The Ocean

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  There is a collaboration problem within
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  There is a collaboration problem within
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  the ocean conservation
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  field, and we're going
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  to talk about it on today's episode of
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  the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  We have Bart Orr, who is the new founder
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  of Balian, which is a
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  platform that helps individuals
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  individuals that have ocean missions,
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  that have ocean missions, have that
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  support and get that funding to push
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  their ocean missions
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  push their ocean missions even further
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  even further and get to that next level.
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  We're going to talk about how this
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  We're going to talk about how this
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  founding came, how Balian
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  came to be, how he went from
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  he went from an engineer to a founder of
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  an engineer to a founder of an ocean
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  conservation organization.
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  We're going to talk about how our
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  We're going to talk about how our
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  collaboration has been so
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  helpful and what makes a good
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  what makes a good collaboration for ocean
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  collaboration for ocean
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  conservation on this episode.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Let's start the show.
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  Hey everybody, welcome back to another
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  exciting episode of the How
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  to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
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  I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
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  This is the podcast where you find out
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  what's happening with the
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  ocean, how you can speak
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  up for the ocean, and what you can do to
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  live for a better ocean by taking action.
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  better ocean by taking action.
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  On today's episode, we're going to be
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  On today's episode, we're going to be
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  talking about
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  collaboration and what the problems are
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  in collaboration in today's ocean
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  conservation field and how
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  to solve that, especially in
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  this creator economy that we talk about.
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  We're seeing a lot more and I'm seeing a
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  We're seeing a lot more, and I'm seeing a
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  lot more individuals
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  come up with ideas of
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  how to protect the ocean, how to make the
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  ocean more sustainable, how to get people
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  involved in making the ocean protected
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  and conserved and more
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  sustainable and just helping
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  out the planet in general.
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  But there's a lot of problems with that
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  because you're individual.
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  You don't have necessarily a huge
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  platform like some of the
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  larger organizations do.
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  And a lot of the times you get left out
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  And a lot of the times you get left out
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  of the funding because
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  you're not part of a large
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  organization, which makes it
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  really hard to collaborate.
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  really hard to collaborate.
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  So we're going to talk about
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  So we're going to talk about
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  collaborations in this episode.
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  We're going to talk a lot of things and
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  I'm going to introduce my
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  guests in just a second.
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  But before we do, if you are interested
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  in protecting the
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  ocean, I want you to consider
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  consider joining the undertow.
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  joining the undertow.
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  The undertow is a platform, another
• 1:49
  The undertow is a platform, another
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  platform where you can be
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  part of a community where
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  not only are you going to be able to
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  support wave makers, but
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  you can also be guided to
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  taking ocean action, whether it be
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  through buying specific
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  products that we vet to make
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  sure that they're good for you or that
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  you're just talking about
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  the ocean in general and
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  learning more about the ocean.
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  And learning more about the ocean.
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  No algorithms from a
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  No algorithms from a
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  social media platform.
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  social media platform.
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  This is all ocean all the time.
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  This is all ocean all the time.
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  Go to speak up for blue.com forward slash
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  join the undertow that
• 2:16
  speak up for blue.com
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  blue dot com forward slash join the
• 2:18
  forward slash join the
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  undertow to get access to that.
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  Now to introduce my guest today, we have
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  Bart Orr, who is one of
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  the founders of Balian
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  Balian and Balian dot org is the website.
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  and Balian.org is the website.
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  So you can go there to get more
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  information and contact them
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  and I'll put it in the show
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  notes, but Bart and I have been talking a
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  number of times recently.
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  of times recently, as soon as we met, we
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  As soon as we met, we met through a
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  friend of ours, Natalie
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  Gilson, who is a communications
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  Gilson, who is a communications person,
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  person who works for Pisces management.
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  management and she's amazing.
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  And she's amazing.
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  And I've been able to meet a number of
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  different people
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  through these collaborations.
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  collaborations and we decided to
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  And we decided to collaborate on through
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  some podcasting and to
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  be able to talk about
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  Balian to be able to talk about what
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  makes a good collaboration
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  and how to elevate individuals
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  individuals who want to work within the
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  who want to work within the ocean
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  conservation field may not have that
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  traditional background
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  that traditional background of ocean
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  of ocean science or being a marine
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  biologist, ocean
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  conservationists, but want to help out
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  out regardless and have various creative
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  regardless and have various creative ways
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  of doing so, whether
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  it be through business,
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  whether it be through art, whether it be
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  through a number of
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  different avenues, science, and
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  we don't want to be able to
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  get them to the next level.
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  And so Balian is one of those platforms
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  that's working to do that.
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  And it's a great platform and it's going
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  And it's a great platform and it's going
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  to become a bigger platform as it grows.
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  So I want to have Bart on to talk about what makes a good collaboration.
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  So I want to have Bart on to talk about
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  what makes a good collaboration.
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  So we talk about the current problems and
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  So we talk about the current problems and
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  some of the solutions
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  that we suggest throughout
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  this collaboration.
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  So if you're an individual who's looking
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  to up their game in
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  terms of ocean conservation,
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  conservation, this is
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  this is the episode for you.
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  the episode for you.
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  And if you're an individual who's
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  And if you're an individual who's
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  struggling with
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  collaborations in the past, this might
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  be good for you to be able to listen to.
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  you to be able to listen to.
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  So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy
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  and I'll talk to you after.
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  Hey, Bart, welcome to the how
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  to protect the ocean podcast.
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  Are you ready to talk about collaboration
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  in ocean conservation?
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  Yes, sir. Yes, I am. Yeah.
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  Let's collaborate, right?
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  Absolutely. This is a collaboration which
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  we'll find out more
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  about in a few minutes.
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  And Bart and I, we've met through a good
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  friend of ours, Natalie Gilson, and we've
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  So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy.
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  been kind of talking on and off for a bit
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  for the over the last couple of months,
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  working together, discussing ocean
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  conservation and what's needed.
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  And we're going to talk about your
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  platform, Baliin, and we're going to talk
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  about you and everything that has to go
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  with collaboration and ocean
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  conservation, because that's something
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  that one is an important thing to do to
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  get projects moving
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  forward to get action done.
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  We see collaboration on all different
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  levels from government level all the way
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  to individual level.
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  And so we want to talk about some of the
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  problems that we've seen and how to get
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  those solutions going
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  to solve those problems.
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  So we're going to talk about a lot of
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  things. And to be honest, Bart, I have a
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  feeling this is going to be the beginning
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  of a long conversation that's going to
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  happen over a number of episodes.
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  So I'm already inviting you back because
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  I know this is going to be a lot of fun.
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  But this is it's going to be like a
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  conversation and less of an interview,
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  but more of a conversation.
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  And I can't wait to get into it. But
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  before we do, Bart, why don't you just
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  let us know who you are and what you do?
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  Yeah, sure. Yeah. Wow. And then we still
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  need to start, right? And already paving
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  the road for the next steps.
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  Yeah, look, Bart Orr, I am Bart training.
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  I'm a mechanical engineer. I have my
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  business background. And but I'm
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  absolutely intrigued by
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  sustainability in general.
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  And a couple of years back, I got into
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  this thing called ocean and ocean
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  conservation, ocean sustainability. And
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  that's where things took off. And I found
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  out I have a new career.
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  Almost like a new purpose, right?
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  Yeah, so what what is important to me is
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  that if you consider how we look at the
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  earth and how we how we deal and live our
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  everyday life, I became absolutely
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  fascinated by the fact how how this the
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  largest ecosystem on the planet is has
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  always been there for millions of years.
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  And it's keeping it's it's it's still
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  there. It's taking care of us. And we are
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  barely aware of that, right? As humanity.
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  And that's that's thought about, okay,
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  there's this big thing, keeping us alive.
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  While we barely know.
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  That's fascinating. So let's explore
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  that, right? And that's where my journey
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  started. There's also one of the reasons
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  why I decided, okay, let's let's go for
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  it. And this is going to be my new
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  purpose, my new future. And hence, here's
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  value. And suddenly, I'm an ocean
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  entrepreneur. No, with my co founder.
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  Yeah, well, I love I love that. I love
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  that aspect. And, you know, coming from
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  an engineering background, like why has
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  sustainability always been such a play
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  such a big role? You know, a lot of
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  engineers, you can engineer is such a
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  such a just like ocean conservation,
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  ocean science, there's such a it's such a
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  huge field, you can specialize in a lot
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  of different aspects of it, from oil and
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  gas all the way to creating, you know,
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  the smallest of instruments that go into
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  microchips that are microchips that go into computers that are
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  power some of the largest facilities in
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  the world. So this is such a broad
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  subject matter. But sustainability,
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  although it is a niche kind of area
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  within within engineering and sort of
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  within the scope. How did you like where
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  did that interest come from? And how have
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  you been using that throughout your
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  career? Yeah, well, for me, it's actually
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  pretty simple. It starts with awareness
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  for myself. I've been
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  creating, I think, a lot of people are
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  probably mostly consumer products or
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  tools and equipment and mechanical stuff.
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  And when you do that, you start to
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  realize, okay, yeah, let's let's make it
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  a bit better. Let's make it a better
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  product or how to make it more
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  sustainable and with a smaller footprint.
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  But after a while, you start to realize,
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  okay, it's still, well, still shit that
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  I'm putting into this new world, right?
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  And there's already so much so I became
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  fascinated about how can I lower my
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  footprint, but you cannot go below zero,
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  right? Still a challenge, still a
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  challenge. But if you get to zero, I
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  started wondering, is there a possibility
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  how you can make a positive impact,
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  which, which, well, maybe not with stuff,
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  but with things, the things that I want
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  to do. And that's, that's idea that kept
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  me alive. And also awake
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  in the evenings, right?
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  But it was really there. And I started
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  exploring things like, okay, seaweed,
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  super interesting, right? There's a big,
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  big potential in how seaweed is a
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  sustainable source of food and
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  livelihoods of people and while in the
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  ocean, it also does a great job in
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  biodiversity. So that's interesting. So
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  let's, let's, let's go there. And, and
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  just concepts like these,
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  that's, that's, that's, that's the
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  that triggered me. And what can I do,
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  right? How can me and how can I
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  contribute to that? How can my thoughts,
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  my, well, if I have them, how can all my
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  skills, how can all my skills contribute
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  to this bigger picture? And how can I
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  create something that is bigger than me
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  alone? And that's where collaboration
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  starts. There is one of the things that I
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  noticed, when I explored
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  this, this concept of seaweed,
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  and ocean conservation and the
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  combination of the two. What really,
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  really intrigued me is, this is a new
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  world. This is a new type of new sector
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  where people treat each other in a
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  different way. Everybody is in there with
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  a purpose, they're not there for money,
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  right? These people, they are truly
• 9:55
  motivated, they are really there to make
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  an impact on their own way. And this,
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  this leverages this
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  different type of collaboration.
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  Different type of collaboration that you
• 10:05
  would normally see in normally in my
• 10:08
  world, from the industry, right? Where
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  it's all about, this is mine, this is
• 10:13
  yours. And let's keep it like this. No,
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  it's way different, different mindset.
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  And that was something like, okay, here,
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  we can do something here, we can build
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  bridges. And this is, this is my type of
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  people I want to work
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  with. That's where it started.
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  I love it. I love it. And so like, when
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  you did engineering, what were you
• 10:34
  working in? What aspect of engineering
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  were you working in?
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  Mostly consumer goods and production. I
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  did some things in bicycles, I did some
• 10:44
  things in machine industry, construction,
• 10:47
  medical tools, a whole bunch of things.
• 10:50
  But when you're a mechanical engineer,
• 10:54
  after a while, it doesn't matter anymore,
• 10:56
  whether you build roller coasters or, or,
• 10:59
  Coca Cola bottles, right? It doesn't
• 11:02
  matter. It's just material. And I wanted
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  to do something like imagine with a
• 11:07
  positive impact. And yeah, I believe my
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  mindset still is an engineer. Yeah, I
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  still think like that. And that's also
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  what I did when, when you zoom out and
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  you see the earth from space. I don't see
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  just this bowl, this, this bowl or this
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  floating swear, it's more like,
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  this is an ecosystem. This is a total
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  system that works. It's completely
• 11:31
  closed. What happens there? And is this
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  ecosystem thoughts? How does it stay
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  alive? How does it
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  work? That's interesting.
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  Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I think I think it
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  is interesting, especially, you know,
• 11:44
  working with consumer goods all the time,
• 11:45
  you see, like, you're like, Oh, I want
• 11:48
  this to be more like, I'd like this to be
• 11:49
  more sustainable. And, you know, but
• 11:51
  you're stuck in this sort of like a cog
• 11:53
  in the wheel of, you know, the business
• 11:55
  aspect and what, you know, marketing and
• 11:57
  what, what works for people, what people
• 11:59
  will use. And I mean, you know, changing
• 12:01
  human behavior is very difficult. But,
• 12:03
  but you can do that when you create
• 12:05
  products. And I can see where that
• 12:07
  sustainability really
• 12:08
  comes in, like that.
• 12:08
  Oh, yeah. Process, like how do we make
• 12:11
  this a lot more sustainable? And, and I
• 12:14
  love that aspect as well. So that's cool.
• 12:17
  And so where was that shift, like that
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  predominant shift over the last little
• 12:21
  bit where you're just like, you know
• 12:22
  what, you know, I want to really have my
• 12:25
  mark on, on, on the oceans and on ocean
• 12:29
  conservation. So where, where did, can
• 12:31
  you pinpoint that one moment where you're
• 12:33
  like, okay, I'm making a, I'm making a
• 12:35
  big shift because that's a
• 12:36
  big change in your career.
• 12:36
  Yeah, it was, it was. Yeah, and that's
• 12:40
  quite unfortunate. I don't have, let's
• 12:41
  say this single moment where it's okay
• 12:43
  from tomorrow onwards, I'm going to do
• 12:45
  everything different. It was like a
• 12:48
  gradual shift. You get some, you're
• 12:53
  interested in something, you learn more,
• 12:55
  I had some conversations with a marine
• 12:57
  biologist, I remember very clearly. And
• 12:59
  she told me about how, how just whales,
• 13:02
  how they contribute to CO2 uptake, and how they contribute to the world.
• 13:06
  And I was like, okay, and this is just
• 13:10
  whales. Tell me more, right? What, what's
• 13:13
  the more you talk, the more you speak
• 13:16
  with experts, the more you start reading,
• 13:20
  you start listening to podcasts, you
• 13:21
  learn, you watch documentaries, and
• 13:23
  whether they are on national geographic
• 13:25
  or Netflix, whatever.
• 13:28
  And you start to search for information
• 13:32
  and you want to know more and yeah, this
• 13:37
  fascination that's unstoppable. And for
• 13:40
  me, it became like a new passion. I
• 13:42
  wasn't like this 10 years ago, but now
• 13:44
  there's so much we need to do.
• 13:47
  And this is the beauty. There's also so
• 13:50
  much we can do. And that was different.
• 13:53
  There's a lot of documentaries, like I
• 13:56
  mentioned, or talks that you have about
• 13:58
  people saying that this is not good.
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  It's, we have a problem and things are
• 14:04
  not going in the right direction. And
• 14:06
  they are right. There are problems.
• 14:08
  But what triggers me and maybe this is
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  the engineer taking over, I see
• 14:13
  opportunities, right? Consider this
• 14:16
  example of these wheels, right? There's
• 14:18
  now roughly 20% of the original wheel
• 14:20
  population still left. And they take the
• 14:24
  wheel activity that they only have like,
• 14:30
  they already have four ways of carbon
• 14:33
  sequestering four ways and
• 14:34
  and their wheel activity is like 1% of
• 14:39
  global carbon uptake with their activity
• 14:42
  alone. Imagine we just restored back to
• 14:45
  original populations. Yeah, then you go
• 14:47
  from one to 5%. That's big, right?
• 14:51
  That's a big difference. And
• 14:52
  a lot of big animals around.
• 14:53
  Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it was like that.
• 14:57
  So it's just a matter of, okay, we bring
• 15:01
  it back to how it was. And we save what
• 15:05
  we had, we save ourselves, right? So for
• 15:08
  me, it's more about the potential and how
• 15:10
  we can leverage that rather than than how
• 15:13
  all about how much of a threat we have.
• 15:17
  And it is there, but I
• 15:18
  see the opportunities.
• 15:20
  Yeah, no, definitely. And so in comes,
• 15:23
  you know, Balian, which you you co
• 15:27
  founded. How did how did that all that
• 15:30
  come about? Like where, you know, where
• 15:32
  did that that vision come from? And then
• 15:34
  how did you take that vision, you know,
• 15:37
  from an engineering perspective, the
• 15:38
  engineering mind and then bring about
• 15:40
  being like, okay, like this is, yeah,
• 15:43
  this is what we're gonna do.
• 15:45
  And when you decide, okay, I want to do
• 15:48
  something different. I want to do
• 15:49
  something with the oceans, you start
• 15:50
  thinking about, okay, where can I
• 15:53
  contribute? Who should I told to? Hey,
• 15:56
  I'm here, I want to help. And I started
• 15:59
  noticing, okay, there's a lot of people
• 16:02
  already doing amazing stuff. And I would
• 16:04
  love to help them.
• 16:06
  There is so much we can do.
• 16:07
  Oh, these guys are doing coral reef
• 16:10
  restoration. So here they are doing kelp
• 16:13
  forest, a reef foresting. There's another
• 16:16
  place where they work on well, you name
• 16:20
  it, there's so much. But I noticed that,
• 16:22
  okay, it's pretty challenging for a for a
• 16:26
  non scientist like me, or someone who
• 16:29
  doesn't come from conservation, or has
• 16:31
  been a banker for 30 years or whatever,
• 16:36
  and comes in with a lot of money. It's
• 16:39
  very challenging to make this change to
• 16:42
  this new sector. So I did some
• 16:44
  volunteering, I talked to people, I did
• 16:47
  my part in the best way I could. But
• 16:51
  there was one thing that I noticed. And
• 16:52
  this was this was also the
• 16:53
  reason why I could not change.
• 16:55
  It was not just a job change where you go
• 16:58
  from one company to the other. I really
• 17:00
  needed to change my mindset in and how
• 17:02
  can I gradually make this change to a new
• 17:06
  career to new purpose. And for me, the
• 17:09
  trigger came into, okay, if there's one
• 17:11
  problem that all these organizations, all
• 17:14
  these people, and there are literally
• 17:15
  10,000 of these organizations, millions
• 17:18
  of people working on
• 17:19
  ocean impact every day.
• 17:20
  If there's one thing that's blocking
• 17:22
  them, it is funding awareness,
• 17:25
  visibility. Maybe I should do that,
• 17:29
  right? If there is a big problem for all
• 17:34
  these organizations, all these impact
• 17:36
  organizations that I can remove, improve
• 17:39
  and help them with, then I can make an
• 17:44
  impact that is far
• 17:45
  beyond who am I on my own.
• 17:47
  And that's where Valian started.
• 17:52
  Yeah, I love that. I think it's such a
• 17:55
  hard thing to, it's a hard thing to
• 17:57
  conceptualize right off the bat, right?
• 17:59
  And then I think also, it's a hard thing
• 18:02
  to try and say, like, who do you work
• 18:05
  with at the beginning?
• 18:06
  I mean, there's so many people that are
• 18:08
  working within ocean conservation. It's
• 18:10
  like, how do you support the people that,
• 18:12
  you know, Valian's going to support?
• 18:14
  And I think that's the challenge, which
• 18:18
  we'll get into in a number of different
• 18:19
  episodes here. Because I think, you know,
• 18:22
  that's, I think that'll be the always the
• 18:23
  question. And that's how we started to
• 18:26
  get to talk as well, to share our
• 18:29
  thoughts and share our ideas and where
• 18:33
  you're working with some great people
• 18:35
  like Natalie Gilson and stuff to get the
• 18:37
  stories out and get Valian's story out,
• 18:39
  including yours and Sanders.
• 18:40
  And I think that's, I think it's, I think
• 18:43
  it's really great. But, you know, the big
• 18:44
  thing with with the mission of Valian is,
• 18:47
  is, is collaboration. And that's what
• 18:50
  we'll be talking about today.
• 18:52
  And so for you when talking when thinking
• 18:55
  about that mission, both of you, where
• 18:59
  did collaboration, how did collaboration
• 19:01
  become that much of a
• 19:02
  key aspect in your mission?
• 19:03
  Yeah, yeah. Well, it started actually
• 19:06
  already with with my co founder, right?
• 19:09
  We're neighbors, we're neighbors. So we
• 19:11
  speak to each other already quite some
• 19:13
  time. And, and then you I didn't, I
• 19:15
  forgot that I didn't realize that you
• 19:17
  guys were like
• 19:18
  neighbors. That's hilarious.
• 19:19
  Yeah, sometimes you search for for like
• 19:22
  minded people all around the world. And
• 19:24
  you speak to people that are literally on
• 19:26
  the other side of the ocean. Hey, do you
• 19:27
  want to work with me?
• 19:28
  And right this idea.
• 19:30
  But there's always something in the way,
• 19:32
  right? I just got into a new job. Maybe
• 19:36
  not. I just, I just got married. Don't
• 19:38
  have the money, whatever. And then it
• 19:40
  turns out, he was living on the other
• 19:42
  side of the street, right?
• 19:44
  Here's my neighbor Sonder.
• 19:45
  So this was already where the
• 19:47
  collaboration started. I started to
• 19:49
  notice that if you just express your
• 19:52
  passion, what you want to do, explain why
• 19:54
  you want to do it. There are a lot of
• 19:57
  people around you who have something
• 19:59
  similar, maybe on a small
• 20:02
  burner in the back of their head.
• 20:05
  But a lot of people really want to make
• 20:06
  an impact. And that's, that's something
• 20:08
  that was also for us. We started from
• 20:12
  scratch. This was super important. If you
• 20:14
  speak with people and all openers and
• 20:17
  transparency, and we don't do secrets.
• 20:19
  There's no need for secrets. If you speak
• 20:21
  about what you want to achieve, what you
• 20:23
  can achieve, but you cannot do it alone.
• 20:26
  We pretty quickly realize that this is
• 20:28
  way bigger than just
• 20:29
  two people, two founders.
• 20:30
  There is so much we can do. And
• 20:33
  collaboration in general, it should be
• 20:36
  mutually beneficial, right? It cannot be
• 20:38
  like, hey, thanks for helping me and
• 20:41
  goodbye. No, it should always be like,
• 20:43
  how can we help each other in such a way
• 20:46
  that it doesn't only help me as a person
• 20:49
  or as a business or organization?
• 20:51
  How can we do it in such a way that it
• 20:54
  also helps you and we found out that by
• 20:57
  just posing this question, okay, well,
• 20:59
  this is what we're doing. What are you
• 21:01
  doing? Where's the overlap? There are so
• 21:04
  many things possible
• 21:05
  suddenly and doors open, right?
• 21:06
  So instead of, like I mentioned before, a
• 21:10
  simple job change, hey, here's my CV and
• 21:14
  here you go. Now it really became a
• 21:17
  transition into a different mindset,
• 21:20
  which is all about collaborating
• 21:23
  openness, mutual
• 21:25
  beneficial collaboration that is.
• 21:36
  And I think that's what I think collaboration is great. Now, how do you
• 21:39
  like when you stepping into the ocean
• 21:41
  conservation industry or the field,
• 21:44
  you're coming in with a brand new lens in
• 21:48
  your experience, how do you find
• 21:50
  collaborations working within the
• 21:53
  industry, not just with your own personal
• 21:56
  things, but from people you've talked to
• 21:59
  a lot of different people.
• 21:59
  Yeah. How do you where do you get the
• 22:03
  sense where collaboration is within
• 22:05
  within the ocean conservation field?
• 22:07
  Yeah, well, the first thing that I
• 22:08
  noticed is that it's very interconnected,
• 22:11
  right? You rarely find a person who is
• 22:14
  only bound to one organization. They
• 22:17
  typically do things
• 22:18
  for this organization.
• 22:19
  They also help there. And while doing
• 22:22
  that, they have a hobby, which is also
• 22:24
  related to ocean conservation in a way.
• 22:27
  So it's very interconnected. And if you
• 22:31
  speak to one, you automatically speak to
• 22:33
  three, four or even five
• 22:34
  people at the same time.
• 22:35
  And so true. Yeah, it's a networking
• 22:40
  became a very different way compared to
• 22:43
  the traditional industry where I've been
• 22:46
  in. It's very much on one on one contact.
• 22:50
  And then maybe you can ask this, this,
• 22:52
  this person to have me I do you also have
• 22:55
  a colleague, or can you
• 22:56
  let me speak to your manager?
• 22:57
  It goes step by step ocean sector ocean
• 23:03
  conservation and restoration. That's
• 23:05
  different. If you notice there is a
• 23:09
  shared passion. People will also say, Oh,
• 23:13
  wow, that's great. I know what you need.
• 23:16
  I know what you want to do. And you
• 23:18
  should definitely talk to this guy. And
• 23:19
  by the way, I just wrote him or her an
• 23:22
  email. And it goes goes in a very
• 23:25
  different way that this networking and collaboration is very different.
• 23:26
  And I think that networking and
• 23:27
  collaborative networking,
• 23:28
  that that's super powerful.
• 23:31
  Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I think
• 23:33
  especially when you first start out and
• 23:35
  you're starting to make these connections
• 23:36
  and the networking becomes a big thing. I
• 23:39
  mean, it worked for me too. From from
• 23:41
  this podcast standpoint, when I started
• 23:43
  interviewing people,
• 23:45
  you know, back in 2014.
• 23:48
  for this podcast,
• 23:49
  which I launched in 2015,
• 23:51
  I started to interview
• 23:53
  people and then they'd be like,
• 23:54
  at first, I knew a good
• 23:56
  number of people within the field.
• 23:59
  And so I started off
• 23:59
  with them, of course,
• 24:00
  and then they enjoyed it.
• 24:02
  We had a good time talking and says,
• 24:04
  oh, you know who you should interview?
• 24:05
  You should interview this person.
• 24:07
  They're working on such and such topic.
• 24:09
  Oh, okay, cool, let's talk to that.
• 24:11
  I remember I did an interview
• 24:13
  on marine mammals and whales,
• 24:16
  and I contacted one person
• 24:20
  who I knew and I said, hey,
• 24:22
  we did this interview and
• 24:24
  at the end of the interview,
• 24:25
  I started to ask a little bit about it
• 24:27
  was one blackfish got released,
• 24:29
  the documentary about Tilakum, the orca,
• 24:32
  and the captive orca,
• 24:33
  and changed the captive orca industry.
• 24:35
  And I said, yeah, do you
• 24:36
  know much about that movie
• 24:37
  and what science went
• 24:38
  in and stuff like that?
• 24:39
  It looks like it's having a big impact.
• 24:41
  He goes, oh no, you
• 24:41
  should talk to my wife.
• 24:43
  She's the orca biologist and
• 24:44
  she did a lot of the science
• 24:46
  and she checked the science for it.
• 24:47
  So then I got to talk to her and that was
• 24:49
  one of my biggest episodes to this date
• 24:51
  on the podcast.
• 24:53
  And it's interesting how once you show,
• 24:58
  once you start to talk to people and show
• 25:00
  what you're doing and they genuinely
• 25:03
  understand what you're doing and feel the
• 25:05
  love of what you're doing,
• 25:07
  how they will pass it on and get you to
• 25:10
  talk to other people to help you out.
• 25:12
  And I think that takes a lot from
• 25:15
  yourself to be able to
• 25:16
  go and talk to people.
• 25:17
  And I tell this to people who are looking
• 25:19
  for jobs all the time in the industry.
• 25:21
  I'm like the biggest thing
• 25:21
  is start talking to people.
• 25:23
  If you can't afford to go to a
• 25:24
  conference, go on
• 25:26
  LinkedIn, start messaging people,
• 25:28
  start have one-on-one
• 25:30
  coffees virtually with them.
• 25:31
  There's so many ways you can
• 25:32
  connect with people these days.
• 25:34
  It makes it a lot easier
• 25:35
  than when I was first starting.
• 25:37
  But that networking
• 25:39
  is really interesting.
• 25:40
  I feel though when people start working
• 25:44
  together or start
• 25:46
  talking about working together,
• 25:48
  that's when collaboration
• 25:49
  really becomes important.
• 25:51
  And I find that's where we really find
• 25:53
  out where the problems
• 25:57
  are in collaboration.
• 26:00
  Have you come across, you don't have to
• 26:02
  name any names or anything.
• 26:03
  Have you come across instances where or
• 26:05
  even heard of instances where
• 26:07
  collaboration wasn't really working the
• 26:09
  way you thought it would be working,
• 26:10
  even between two different
• 26:11
  organizations or whatever?
• 26:13
  Yeah, well, we all have
• 26:16
  our own stories, right?
• 26:17
  And we met also through networking and
• 26:21
  that was powerful, super nice.
• 26:23
  And now we're suddenly talking to each
• 26:25
  other in this podcast.
• 26:27
  But of course, to me, there's a few
• 26:30
  things that are important.
• 26:31
  The first is timing. You need to speak to
• 26:35
  someone who just happens to have the
• 26:37
  right time and have this comparable
• 26:43
  thought at the same time.
• 26:44
  And sometimes you simply cannot convince
• 26:47
  a person to do the same, right? It
• 26:49
  doesn't always work like that.
• 26:52
  I mentioned about this small thought in
• 26:54
  the back of the mind of the people about
• 26:56
  ocean conservation or
• 26:58
  sustainability in general.
• 26:58
  Some people just have a very small
• 27:02
  burner. Others have a big fire.
• 27:04
  And that needs to be a little bit of
• 27:06
  coincidence. Sometimes you can feel it
• 27:08
  like, ah, whoa, hold on.
• 27:11
  I hear or you sense from a
• 27:13
  person in a conversation.
• 27:14
  And this goes very well
• 27:15
  with a glass of beer in a cafe.
• 27:19
  This person has this same sense of I can
• 27:24
  do better. I can do more.
• 27:24
  And that's the sweet spot, right? If you
• 27:27
  know, oh, hey, hold on. What you're now
• 27:29
  telling me, I
• 27:30
  recognize what you're saying.
• 27:32
  And I've been through that. I am going
• 27:34
  through that at this very moment. And
• 27:36
  then you want to you want
• 27:37
  to explore this together.
• 27:39
  We have shared passion. That's a sweet
• 27:41
  spot. And of course, it also happens the
• 27:44
  other way around, right?
• 27:46
  If you have conversations with a friend,
• 27:49
  even if they're they're very close to
• 27:51
  you, it can sometimes
• 27:52
  mean that this person
• 27:55
  doesn't feel the connect or doesn't care
• 27:58
  about it as much as you do.
• 28:01
  Yeah, coincidence.
• 28:03
  Yeah, professional. Yeah, sorry. Yeah,
• 28:05
  please go ahead. No, go ahead. Go
• 28:07
  continue. Continue. Go ahead. Yeah.
• 28:09
  On a more professional level, I it can
• 28:12
  also be sometimes like
• 28:13
  internal priorities and
• 28:15
  the industry in ocean conservation
• 28:20
  restoration, it's a lot of small
• 28:23
  initiatives, smaller individuals that
• 28:25
  that's sometimes do this besides their
• 28:27
  day to day job, right? Yes.
• 28:30
  So much energy and compassion and passion
• 28:32
  about what they want to achieve. And
• 28:35
  these are the people have a really big
• 28:37
  and open mind about Oh, yeah, sure.
• 28:37
  We should they are truly motivated to to
• 28:42
  make a change. Yeah, while bigger
• 28:45
  organizations. Yeah, there it's it's for
• 28:48
  for some people, it's just a job.
• 28:49
  While others are there for making an
• 28:52
  impact and purpose. And yeah, you also
• 28:55
  need to be a bit lucky. But I found out
• 28:57
  that especially these smaller
• 29:01
  initiatives, the things that are not
• 29:03
  super, super big yet.
• 29:04
  There's so much potential, so much
• 29:07
  innovation and knowledge, passion, I feel
• 29:11
  like they deserve to be successful. And
• 29:15
  in a way, sometimes I feel like that
• 29:17
  myself, I'm just starting this together
• 29:19
  with some there is in since
• 29:21
  October 24, pretty recently.
• 29:23
  So we're, we're absolute beginners. So we
• 29:27
  need some, some leverage or runway to
• 29:31
  make this into a success week, we cannot
• 29:33
  be big at the very beginning. So in my
• 29:36
  view, all the organizations, people, or
• 29:40
  institutes that are already big.
• 29:42
  In a way, it's also their responsibility
• 29:44
  to help the smaller ones or the not yet
• 29:46
  famous persons, right? And that's Yeah,
• 29:50
  they're there. That can be challenging,
• 29:52
  that can be challenging.
• 29:54
  I think it can be challenging. But I
• 29:55
  think it has the most potential, to be
• 29:57
  honest, like these individuals, because I
• 29:59
  think the times that we're in and the
• 30:01
  technology that we have, you know, in
• 30:04
  that creator economy or that influencer
• 30:06
  economy is is is becoming
• 30:09
  bigger and bigger and bigger.
• 30:11
  And I think that's a great experience.
• 30:12
  Like when I grew up into the industry,
• 30:13
  you know, I graduated my undergrad degree
• 30:15
  in 2001. So, you know, internet was still
• 30:19
  it was becoming bigger and bigger. But
• 30:20
  you know, social media was like, I think
• 30:22
  we had, what was it? My space, I think
• 30:24
  was the biggest social media
• 30:26
  platform that was out there.
• 30:27
  And even then that was that was getting
• 30:29
  that wasn't even that big at that point.
• 30:31
  But there was no Facebook, there was no
• 30:32
  YouTube at that point. And the people in
• 30:36
  the organizations who kind of ruled the
• 30:37
  roost were the big organizations, the
• 30:39
  WWF, the Oceana, and they did some
• 30:42
  phenomenal work and they
• 30:43
  continue to do phenomenal work.
• 30:45
  But they had like they were the machines
• 30:48
  that kept things going and and you either
• 30:51
  worked with them or you didn't or maybe
• 30:53
  you worked as like a consultant. So
• 30:55
  they'd get like a professor or they get
• 30:56
  like somebody who was, you know, had a
• 30:58
  lot of experience in the industry and
• 30:59
  they were experts and they would work
• 31:01
  with them, you know, on a contract basis.
• 31:02
  And they would have little contracts or
• 31:05
  they would fund graduate work. And they
• 31:06
  did again, they did some amazing work
• 31:08
  like WWF funded my part of my graduate
• 31:11
  work on marine protected areas. And it
• 31:13
  was it was wonderful to work. They were
• 31:14
  really great to work with.
• 31:15
  But then as people started to graduate
• 31:19
  and more and more people started to get
• 31:20
  into the field of marine science and
• 31:22
  ocean conservation, there was less and
• 31:25
  less funding available and more people
• 31:26
  around and the funding continues to kind
• 31:28
  of decrease it seems or not increase it
• 31:31
  the way it should be.
• 31:31
  And there are more people starting more
• 31:34
  organizations. Some of those are getting
• 31:36
  bigger. Other people are going in
• 31:37
  different routes and and but we're seeing
• 31:39
  this this increase of the individual of
• 31:43
  the creator and who are, you know, they
• 31:46
  might be undergraduates.
• 31:48
  They might be graduates or they might be
• 31:49
  newly graduates or they might be business
• 31:51
  people just like yourself and Sanders who
• 31:53
  are who decide to say, you know what,
• 31:54
  like we were interested in the ocean and
• 31:56
  we need to help solve these problems.
• 31:59
  And we started seeing more and more
• 32:00
  individual people and smaller
• 32:02
  organizations who are coming on to the
• 32:05
  forefront competing for this same
• 32:07
  funding. And and a lot of them are being
• 32:11
  left behind or not being able to succeed
• 32:13
  in doing a full time career within this
• 32:18
  business doing the mission, which a lot
• 32:20
  of times are really great missions.
• 32:22
  So they are they are they are needed.
• 32:24
  They are necessary. They're trying to
• 32:26
  solve a problem, whether it be through
• 32:28
  business or whether it be through a
• 32:29
  charitable action. You know, those are
• 32:32
  separated, but they're
• 32:33
  all over the place. Right.
• 32:34
  And so there is a need to be able to have
• 32:39
  an organization like like Balian or like
• 32:42
  the undertow to to be able to support and
• 32:47
  help these individuals to be able to move
• 32:50
  forward by looking at
• 32:51
  different funding actions.
• 32:52
  Oh, yeah. Different ways to fund them
• 32:55
  because oftentimes they get left behind.
• 32:58
  This is where I have the problem with. I
• 32:59
  feel like the major problem with the
• 33:01
  collaboration is and I get it like it's
• 33:03
  nobody's fault by any means.
• 33:06
  A lot of the times when you don't see
• 33:08
  collaboration working out, it's not
• 33:09
  necessarily because of somebody's trying
• 33:12
  to be mean or someone is just trying to
• 33:14
  like get all the I mean, you see that,
• 33:16
  but not often. Right.
• 33:17
  Rarely. Right. And I think it's just I
• 33:21
  think it's more of the fact that these
• 33:22
  organizations control the funding. They
• 33:24
  give out the funding and and they can
• 33:26
  only give up the funding to certain
• 33:27
  people. It's who they know and stuff.
• 33:29
  But there's so many people that are that
• 33:30
  are that are growing and that are coming
• 33:32
  into this industry as individuals that
• 33:34
  they need that extra support because you
• 33:36
  never know the impact that these
• 33:39
  individuals will have on the
• 33:41
  world. You know what I mean?
• 33:42
  Like you never know who the next David
• 33:44
  Attenborough is or you know, you never
• 33:46
  know who the next Sylvia Earl will be or
• 33:48
  or Melissa Marquez or Diva Amman. You
• 33:51
  just never know. And so be but if they
• 33:54
  don't have that support, then it's then
• 33:57
  they'll never get there.
• 33:59
  And so that's where I think Balian
• 34:00
  becomes such an integral part of the
• 34:03
  system is because you can provide that
• 34:06
  support not only from a monetary
• 34:08
  standpoint, from a funding standpoint,
• 34:10
  but from like an actual support of like
• 34:12
  provide them with a community and provide
• 34:14
  them with that. Right.
• 34:15
  Like what are your thoughts on that?
• 34:17
  It's all about community visibility
• 34:20
  awareness and fundraise is a very big
• 34:24
  obstacle, but also just consider funding
• 34:27
  like you mentioned in order to get to the
• 34:30
  big funds. You need to have some kind of
• 34:32
  an idea, but not just an idea.
• 34:33
  You need to have a proven idea or ideally
• 34:36
  an already working organization. But how
• 34:38
  do you get there if there's no funding,
• 34:40
  right? It all starts with a bit of
• 34:43
  awareness and visibility.
• 34:47
  And like your example with David
• 34:50
  Attenborough, I don't know, but I can
• 34:53
  totally imagine and when he was 20 or 30
• 34:56
  years old, barely no one knew him.
• 34:58
  Right. You have to start somewhere,
• 35:00
  right? Yeah. And I feel like imagine
• 35:06
  you're an individual considering this
• 35:09
  idea about how can I make
• 35:11
  an impact? Just like myself.
• 35:16
  There's not a lot of funds that we have.
• 35:19
  There's not a lot of time that we have.
• 35:20
  When we started, we were thinking about
• 35:24
  this besides our day to day job. We've
• 35:28
  given up on our day to day job now. But
• 35:30
  at that time, our time was very limited.
• 35:34
  So little time, almost no budget, but it
• 35:38
  was a big difference. And that is we are
• 35:40
  really, really passionate about where we
• 35:44
  want to go. So our North Star was there
• 35:46
  and it hasn't moved.
• 35:49
  We are this is what we want to do. This
• 35:51
  is where we are heading. And this
• 35:53
  intrinsic motivation, this sense of
• 35:55
  purpose. And I really, really need to end
• 35:58
  up here in this domain. And this is what
• 36:00
  I want to do. That's something.
• 36:03
  You only sense this with these smaller
• 36:06
  individuals, this innovative spirit
• 36:08
  about, okay, no matter what, I will get
• 36:10
  there. And you start to make move
• 36:16
  everything to make that happen. This
• 36:19
  drive. That's something that's that's
• 36:22
  super powerful. And that's where also
• 36:25
  where we feel like, okay, these
• 36:28
  individuals, these smaller
• 36:29
  organizations that start.
• 36:30
  They do need the same attention. And
• 36:34
  there should be no limitation on on the
• 36:38
  smaller initiatives. They should deserve
• 36:40
  the same respect and the same visibility
• 36:45
  like like the bigger ones. We all make
• 36:48
  impact in our own way.
• 36:49
  But it should not be limited by just or
• 36:53
  how to let me put it in different words,
• 36:56
  you cannot be successful all at once. You
• 36:59
  also need to write small 100%. Yeah, and
• 37:03
  that goes for everything. And it makes so
• 37:04
  much sense. But how to live upon that, we
• 37:08
  feel like we can just simply leverage the
• 37:12
  the the the the the the the the the
• 37:14
  opportunity there by
• 37:15
  removing the biggest obstacles.
• 37:17
  Yeah, and collaboration. Yeah, you will
• 37:21
  find situations where you cannot
• 37:22
  collaborate where someone said, Oh,
• 37:24
  sorry, I don't have priority. But I have
• 37:26
  my own project. It happens. Yeah, finds
• 37:29
  the people around you who do have a
• 37:32
  match. And that's where it starts. So
• 37:35
  there's already also this this
• 37:37
  matchmaking in collaboration, you need to
• 37:39
  find the right person. And if it's not
• 37:41
  now, yeah, who knows in five years time,
• 37:44
  we might be just one
• 37:45
  of these big ones. And
• 37:45
  I hope I will tell the same at that time,
• 37:49
  right? But we really, really believe that
• 37:52
  all these smaller initiatives, all
• 37:54
  innovation comes can come from anywhere,
• 37:57
  no matter whether you're a scientist,
• 37:59
  whether you're an individual like me,
• 38:01
  whether you live in Australia in Africa,
• 38:04
  or wherever, I don't care. It's just
• 38:08
  people, it's in innovation, it's spirits,
• 38:10
  it's purpose. Let's let's make use of it. It's there.
• 38:12
  Yeah, and there are so many things that
• 38:16
  need to be done within the ocean. It
• 38:19
  makes sense for that these these up and
• 38:22
  comers, right? These individuals who have
• 38:24
  these ideas who want to bring it to the
• 38:26
  next level, get that support to bring it
• 38:28
  to that next level, whatever that level
• 38:30
  looks like, right? Some will go will jump
• 38:32
  levels, others will go one step at a
• 38:34
  time, most of the people will go one step
• 38:35
  at a time, because that's how how
• 38:37
  businesses grow and things like that.
• 38:40
  And, you know, have to have patience and so forth. And so, you know, I think that's a really important thing.
• 38:41
  And I think it's, I think it's really
• 38:47
  important. I think I think it's great.
• 38:49
  Now, you know, when when you work with a
• 38:52
  bunch of these individuals, you know,
• 38:56
  through the ballon platform, will they'll
• 38:59
  probably be people who will collaborate,
• 39:01
  you know, through the platform or meet
• 39:04
  through the platform, like, you know,
• 39:06
  we've been on a couple of meetings
• 39:07
  together and workshops together on on
• 39:10
  communication, and we've been on the platform for a long time.
• 39:10
  We're on the platform for a long time,
• 39:11
  which is a good communication. And there
• 39:12
  are probably a good, you know, 10 to 12
• 39:15
  people who are on the calls at any one
• 39:17
  one time. And, and it's easy to see the
• 39:20
  collaboration already. Yeah.
• 39:23
  Already happened. How do you encourage
• 39:24
  that on the platform for people to to
• 39:28
  collaborate? Yeah, of course, some of
• 39:31
  them already know each other. But what
• 39:33
  what is that I mentioned this this
• 39:36
  networking through networking effects.
• 39:39
  But what I really enjoy seeing is also
• 39:43
  the new people meeting.
• 39:46
  Yeah.
• 39:48
  We have a Dutch organization doing things
• 39:50
  in the North Sea and they make an impact
• 39:55
  in a very, very nice
• 39:57
  way with citizen science.
• 39:59
  We have an organization in Mexico doing
• 40:02
  coral reef restorations and they are in
• 40:05
  the same space, but they never met.
• 40:06
  So this is super enjoyable for me to
• 40:09
  watch. They're also learning from each
• 40:12
  other and I am there. I can watch that. I
• 40:14
  can learn from them as well.
• 40:16
  And maybe I also have some insight that I
• 40:19
  can share with them. This networking of
• 40:22
  bringing people together, bringing
• 40:24
  organizations together.
• 40:26
  That's a community. And what I really
• 40:28
  like about it, there's always these talks
• 40:32
  about, yeah, we need to make sure that we
• 40:33
  have our noses
• 40:35
  pointing the same direction.
• 40:36
  We need to be fully aligned, but I rarely
• 40:41
  seen it really aligned
• 40:42
  like I'm seeing today. Yeah.
• 40:45
  There's only people with a sense of
• 40:47
  purpose, ocean impact. And it comes from
• 40:51
  deep inside. So it's from there coming
• 40:54
  from their personal
• 40:55
  values most of the time.
• 40:55
  Then magic happens. There's so different
• 41:01
  energy in such a meeting and or workshop
• 41:04
  or conversation that you're having.
• 41:24
  Shaman articulated to
• 41:49
  give you information.
• 41:53
  have a feeling in a lot of spaces, and
• 41:56
  this is not just in ocean conservation,
• 41:58
  but a lot of spaces,
• 41:59
  is we don't learn what a good
• 42:02
  collaboration entails, right? We don't
• 42:05
  learn how to collaborate
• 42:07
  with people. We just expect that people
• 42:09
  will be respectful of each of
• 42:10
  their own goals, and we try,
• 42:11
  like, you know, you and I, when we got
• 42:13
  together, it's like, how can
• 42:14
  we benefit each other? Like,
• 42:15
  this is a collaboration. How do we make
• 42:18
  sure that each of us get value out of
• 42:20
  this relationship? And
• 42:21
  I've done this over a number of times,
• 42:23
  and we always define it together to make
• 42:25
  sure that we can see
• 42:26
  value in each other. For new people
• 42:28
  coming on to the to the Balian platform,
• 42:31
  what would your suggestions
• 42:33
  be to ensure that you get healthy
• 42:36
  collaborations where both parties benefit
• 42:40
  in some sort of way?
• 42:42
  Yeah, right. In typical business, you
• 42:44
  will start pitching your idea and how
• 42:46
  important it is. But
• 42:48
  at Balian, we did it actually a bit
• 42:49
  different. We asked for, hey, what are
• 42:53
  you doing? And where are you going?
• 42:55
  What do you like to achieve? And before
• 42:57
  you know it, you have an
• 42:58
  amazing conversation about
• 43:00
  this enormous potential or innovation or
• 43:02
  opportunity that someone sees, which
• 43:05
  other people have not seen.
• 43:07
  Oh, wow, I like what you're doing. Do you
• 43:11
  want me to help you? Right?
• 43:13
  Yeah, happy to do. And right,
• 43:15
  that's where that's where in my view is a
• 43:19
  lot of lost opportunity. If you
• 43:23
  you need to consider what does the other
• 43:25
  person want to achieve? And
• 43:27
  and if you forget about that,
• 43:31
  how could it become a collaboration if
• 43:34
  you're only looking to
• 43:35
  achieve your own goals?
• 43:36
  It cannot work. It's only it might work
• 43:39
  once, but then it ends. But instead, if
• 43:43
  you turn it around, hey,
• 43:43
  what are you doing? What do you want to
• 43:46
  achieve? And then you can also decide for
• 43:48
  yourself whether it fits or not.
• 43:50
  Yeah, but this is where where it starts
• 43:53
  with and also in
• 43:55
  business development in general,
• 43:57
  you should never try coming back to
• 44:00
  consumer goods, right? Don't develop what
• 44:02
  you like yourself. No,
• 44:04
  develop what your customer or your target
• 44:07
  audience is looking for.
• 44:08
  I think the same goes for
• 44:10
  collaboration. If you want to become a
• 44:12
  successful collaborator. Yeah, I'm
• 44:15
  definitely not an expert, but I believe
• 44:16
  like ask for what your your your your
• 44:20
  opponent, not not the opponent, your your
• 44:23
  collaborate, your potential collaborator
• 44:24
  is looking for. Yeah. Yeah.
• 44:27
  I'm going to find a word the right word.
• 44:30
  No, I know. You're right. You're
• 44:32
  completely right. You know, it's
• 44:33
  interesting, too, because we had a
• 44:34
  workshop this morning just before we did
• 44:36
  this recording, as I mentioned, we met.
• 44:37
  And we had Natalie on and she's been
• 44:39
  great at for communicating and she talks
• 44:41
  about this sort of strategy of flipping
• 44:44
  the script on on people when you
• 44:47
  communicate with people to get them
• 44:48
  interested instead of saying, you know,
• 44:50
  my mission or what we're trying to do or,
• 44:54
  you know, collectively, our mission is to
• 44:56
  do this is to include, you know, them in
• 45:00
  the, you know, partnerships or you with
• 45:02
  and this and that. And I feel like the
• 45:04
  same thing when you do
• 45:05
  any kind of collaboration.
• 45:07
  Yeah, you know, is is like just as you
• 45:10
  mentioned, like, what's your mission?
• 45:11
  Like, what do you what are you trying to
• 45:12
  accomplish? And then I think the key is
• 45:15
  how your project or like say, so if we're
• 45:19
  collaborating, like we like we are now,
• 45:21
  you know, the key is like,
• 45:22
  hey, you have this platform,
• 45:23
  right? I'm a form of alien. I really
• 45:24
  believe in it. So now you're trying to
• 45:27
  accomplish certain goals. So my goal is
• 45:30
  like, how can I use what I have in terms
• 45:33
  of my project to benefit you? You know,
• 45:36
  and so I come up like as I hear what
• 45:38
  you're trying to do, I'm like, okay, now
• 45:39
  the the ideas are running. Here's some
• 45:42
  ideas. What do you think if we did this?
• 45:45
  You know, come on the podcast, talk about
• 45:46
  a number of different things within, you
• 45:48
  know, with working with people and the
• 45:51
  platform and stuff like
• 45:52
  that. And you're like,
• 45:53
  you know, I'm a person and you go back is
• 45:54
  like, well, why don't you come to some of
• 45:55
  these workshops and go through the
• 45:56
  storytelling workshops and everything.
• 45:58
  And it and that's how I feel like that's
• 46:01
  how it works, right? Is the key is to not
• 46:04
  only not not only add value to that
• 46:06
  person to help them accomplish their
• 46:07
  goals, but also do it in a form where
• 46:10
  it's like, well, this is what I'm doing.
• 46:11
  And I think this is where I can help.
• 46:13
  What are your thoughts on it? Right?
• 46:15
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, now that I'm
• 46:17
  thinking about it, you need to tell me
• 46:20
  how you did this. But now
• 46:22
  that I'm thinking about it,
• 46:23
  what one of the things that we
• 46:25
  drastically changed is we we really made
• 46:30
  a careful decision to put everything
• 46:33
  we're doing out in the open. So you can
• 46:37
  find our fully transparent, you can find
• 46:40
  our handbook and how we deal with each
• 46:42
  other, how we're organized, everything is
• 46:44
  out in the open. And yeah, why not,
• 46:47
  right? We have not we don't have anything
• 46:49
  to hide. If you're collaborating, there
• 46:52
  needs to be a certain base of
• 46:53
  trust. And we really started wondering
• 46:56
  for ourselves, why should we hide
• 47:00
  anything? Do we have secrets? Should
• 47:02
  there be something that other people
• 47:04
  should not know? Right. And we came to
• 47:06
  the conclusion. It's not like that there.
• 47:08
  There is none. So we're communicating as
• 47:13
  openly as we can. We're we're started, we
• 47:15
  make mistakes, we make a lot of mistakes.
• 47:19
  And if you don't mind, just tell me.
• 47:23
  Well, correct it. And in return, I can
• 47:26
  help you as well. Yeah, very different,
• 47:29
  very different. And in a way, for me,
• 47:31
  it's very refreshing. And this is also
• 47:33
  what I sensed in our collaboration,
• 47:35
  right? There's a lot more openness in
• 47:39
  when we first met. And yeah, I'm also
• 47:44
  curious to see how you do that, then,
• 47:46
  right? You need to bring a lot of people
• 47:48
  together as well. Yeah, yeah.
• 47:51
  And it brings a lot of curiosity. How do
• 47:53
  others people other people do that? And
• 47:54
  yeah, sometimes it's just a matter of
• 47:56
  asking. Yeah, it's true. And I like how
• 48:00
  you mentioned the transparency. That's a
• 48:02
  that's an important aspect. You know, one
• 48:04
  of the things that I've done through the
• 48:06
  podcast is I don't edit my interviews.
• 48:09
  You know, I tell people I don't unless
• 48:11
  they there's something that they said
• 48:12
  that they're like, Hey, you know what,
• 48:14
  Andrew, like, I shouldn't have said that
• 48:15
  that was a project that was coming out
• 48:16
  later. And, you know, before that and
• 48:19
  that kind of stuff. But
• 48:20
  for the most part, I don't
• 48:21
  want to be as. I want to, I think they're better, better. I want to be as upfront.
• 48:21
  And the reason why is is the trust,
• 48:23
  right? Is to be like look, this is the
• 48:25
  conversation that we had. I don't want to
• 48:26
  be to be known as manipulating the
• 48:29
  interview. And the reason why did that
• 48:31
  when I especially when I first started, I
• 48:32
  really focused on that telling people is
• 48:35
  because a lot of the scientists that I
• 48:36
  was talking to you had had bad
• 48:39
  experiences with, you know, bad press,
• 48:43
  like bad journal. Yeah, sure. And and,
• 48:45
  and so forth. Not to say that any
• 48:51
  manipulated in a different way and they
• 48:53
  didn't like it. So they didn't trust the
• 48:55
  media. And so I said,
• 48:56
  look, I'm a scientist. One of the reasons
• 48:58
  why I'm doing this is to get your
• 49:00
  information out there.
• 49:01
  So I'm here to promote you. I'm here to
• 49:03
  promote the work that you
• 49:04
  do. I listened to or read your
• 49:07
  work and I'm a big fan of it. And I want
• 49:10
  people to know about the
• 49:11
  project that you're doing or
• 49:12
  the study that you just published on it
• 49:13
  and so forth. And that
• 49:15
  really garnered a lot. People are
• 49:17
  more relaxed when you do the interview.
• 49:19
  You know, they're not as
• 49:20
  uptight. They're not as nervous.
• 49:21
  It's more like this kind of like this is
• 49:23
  more of a conversation. And
• 49:25
  I think it's a very important
• 49:26
  aspect to the work that I do. And not a
• 49:29
  lot. I never, I don't usually
• 49:31
  advertise it because I don't
• 49:32
  need to because like the conversation is
• 49:34
  all out there. And it's
• 49:35
  kind of funny because I've had,
• 49:36
  you know, some people, not many, but some
• 49:37
  people who are just like, oh, well, you
• 49:39
  know, your interviews
• 49:40
  are like really long. And, you know, do
• 49:42
  you need to know every bit of detail
• 49:44
  about that person? And
• 49:45
  you're just like, no, you don't. But it
• 49:48
  also goes towards that personality of
• 49:50
  that scientist or that
• 49:52
  conservationist or that person, my guest.
• 49:54
  And people get to know
• 49:55
  them a little bit more. Plus,
• 49:57
  you know, I published everything because
• 49:59
  I don't want it to be, I don't want to
• 50:00
  like just cut it and
• 50:01
  cut it and cut it and try and manipulate
• 50:04
  it into a different story. I want the
• 50:06
  conversation. I want
• 50:08
  people to like basically you're sitting
• 50:09
  in on a conversation I'm
• 50:10
  having. That's why I started the
• 50:11
  podcast and how that's the focus of the
• 50:14
  structure of the
• 50:15
  podcast. And I think that's
• 50:17
  important, but it goes back to my point
• 50:19
  of the, and your point of the
• 50:20
  transparency and trust to
• 50:22
  build. And then at the end of the
• 50:24
  episode, people are like, I love this.
• 50:26
  Like this was a lot of fun to do.
• 50:28
  Can we do another one? You know, I've had
• 50:30
  people ask right off the bat, like, hey,
• 50:31
  let's meet and let's
• 50:32
  do another one. Like this is a lot of
• 50:34
  fun. Yeah, that's how my podcast, you
• 50:37
  already promised me one.
• 50:38
  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like right off the
• 50:41
  bat. But I mean, I know you more like
• 50:42
  we've had conversations
• 50:44
  and stuff. But you know, like, like it's
• 50:45
  it but it's an important aspect for
• 50:48
  people to enjoy the,
• 50:51
  you know, the enjoy the process. You
• 50:54
  know, I want them to have a good time on
• 50:57
  the on the show when
• 50:58
  they're recording because it can be
• 50:59
  intimidating. You know, the what you
• 51:01
  know, I remember when I
• 51:02
  first started when I turned that
• 51:03
  microphone on and press record, I was
• 51:05
  like, Oh, gosh, like this is not, you
• 51:09
  know, you get nervous, you
• 51:11
  worry about what you say, I want people
• 51:12
  to be relaxed, you know, that you're in
• 51:15
  good hands, and I'll, I'll bring you
• 51:17
  through it. And that's why I find we've
• 51:19
  had such great experiences with with
• 51:21
  interviews and
• 51:22
  conversations, we've been able
• 51:23
  to talk about some difficult topics that
• 51:26
  have been that have been talked about.
• 51:27
  But trust is a huge aspect to that. And
• 51:30
  and I think you're right. I think it's a
• 51:32
  it's a big part of of collaborations, you
• 51:36
  know, is to have that
• 51:37
  transparency and have that trust.
• 51:39
  Yeah, well, thanks for sharing it. I
• 51:41
  liked it. I liked it did the overlap
• 51:43
  there. And I can confirm I wasn't
• 51:45
  nervous. Right, right. It does work. It
• 51:48
  does work. Yeah. The
• 51:53
  trust is a super important thing. And for
• 51:56
  me, it also starts with authenticity. You
• 51:58
  cannot be someone else because all the
• 52:00
  others are already taken. And in a way,
• 52:06
  if you're open about who you are, yeah,
• 52:10
  that helps a lot. And people sense it
• 52:16
  when you're not honest about what you're
• 52:17
  doing. Yeah. So why hide it?
• 52:21
  Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure.
• 52:23
  I think I think you're right. Look, this
• 52:25
  has been an amazing conversation. I love
• 52:28
  talking about this because I think it
• 52:29
  really brings out into the open. There's
• 52:31
  a lot of people who've had some good,
• 52:33
  great experiences and awful experiences
• 52:36
  on the other end of that spectrum with
• 52:38
  collaborations. And I think it's great to
• 52:40
  be able to discuss what to expect, you
• 52:44
  know, and and I think also, you know,
• 52:46
  being up front with people like, look, I
• 52:48
  want to have this conversation. I want
• 52:49
  both of us to benefit from this
• 52:51
  relationship if this is
• 52:52
  going to move forward.
• 52:53
  And if not, then that's fine. You know,
• 52:55
  if you don't see, I always tell people if
• 52:57
  we don't see a eye to eye on certain
• 53:00
  things, there's no hard feelings and we
• 53:01
  just go for it. As long as we both get
• 53:04
  value out of it, then it works well. And
• 53:06
  I think that's what a lot of people need
• 53:08
  to. I think we almost have to teach that
• 53:10
  a little bit in terms of what
• 53:11
  collaborations will look like and what it
• 53:13
  should look like and what it shouldn't
• 53:15
  look like. And I think that's an
• 53:17
  important aspect. So, Bart, this was
• 53:19
  amazing to do this. I
• 53:21
  want to have you back here.
• 53:22
  I want to have you back on very, very
• 53:24
  shortly. We're going to have a lot of
• 53:25
  conversations because it'd be a lot of
• 53:28
  fun. But but yeah, so if people want to
• 53:32
  know where they can get more information
• 53:33
  on you, where shall we send them?
• 53:36
  Yeah, well, we have our website, of
• 53:38
  course. But some. Yeah, a website is just
• 53:41
  one thing. There's always a thought
• 53:44
  behind it. And in the end, it's just a
• 53:47
  screen that you're watching.
• 53:49
  If you feel like, oh, wow, I like what
• 53:51
  these guys are doing, or I like the
• 53:53
  story. Yeah, just reach out to us. We
• 53:55
  have a contact form. We are on LinkedIn.
• 53:58
  So yeah, feel free to reach out. And
• 54:00
  that's how we have been working with Ford
• 54:05
  now, officially six months.
• 54:08
  We started a bit earlier. But also how we
• 54:12
  met, right? So yeah, exactly.
• 54:15
  I like what they're doing, or I have this
• 54:19
  thought. Yeah, happy to learn. It's not
• 54:21
  so much about teaching. It's more about
• 54:23
  learning for myself.
• 54:25
  Absolutely. Absolutely. No, perfect. I
• 54:27
  love that. We'll put the website in the
• 54:29
  show notes. It's baileyand.org. Yeah. And
• 54:32
  so put that in there so people can get a
• 54:34
  and we'll put right to the link right to
• 54:36
  the contact page too. So if people want
• 54:37
  to get in touch with you, they can.
• 54:39
  Bart, thank you so much for having coming
• 54:42
  on the podcast and we love having you on
• 54:44
  and looking forward to having you on
• 54:45
  again. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're still small.
• 54:47
  So also we need to build our.
• 54:49
  Yeah, so happy to do that. Thanks,
• 54:52
  Andrew. I like your your openness in in
• 54:56
  sharing your experiences that I also
• 54:58
  learned a lot from you here.
• 55:00
  Absolutely. Well, there's you know,
• 55:01
  there's trust. We got to build with the
• 55:02
  audience too. And so showing where you
• 55:04
  came from all the time and then the value
• 55:07
  that they bring to me is amazing as well.
• 55:10
  Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. All right.
• 55:12
  Awesome. We'll talk to you.
• 55:13
  Yeah, we'll be soon. Yeah.
• 55:14
  Thank you, Bart, for joining us on
• 55:16
  today's episode of the How to Protect the
• 55:18
  Ocean podcast. It was great to be able to
• 55:19
  talk to you about collaborations about
• 55:22
  Balian and what it could do and what a
• 55:24
  good collaboration can do to help get
• 55:27
  people to the next level of their mission
• 55:29
  to help protect the ocean.
• 55:30
  It's always important to be able to
• 55:32
  discuss this. And so if you want to
• 55:34
  follow up with Bart, if you have any
• 55:35
  questions, you can do so. Go to Balian
• 55:37
  dot org. So it's B A L E A N dot org.
• 55:42
  That's B A L E A N dot org. There will be
• 55:44
  a link in the show notes or in the
• 55:46
  description below if you're watching this
• 55:48
  on YouTube. Love to hear your comments.
• 55:50
  So if you want to put your comments down
• 55:51
  below or send me an email, go to
• 55:54
  speakupforblue.com forward slash contact
• 55:57
  and just fill out the form. But also
• 55:59
  you'll see me in the email.
• 55:59
  You'll see me in the undertow in that
• 56:01
  community can go to speakupforblue.com
• 56:03
  forward slash join the undertow to join
• 56:06
  that group and you'll see a lot more of
• 56:08
  lead in there. So I want to thank Bart,
• 56:10
  our guest. It's the first time, but not
• 56:11
  the last time he'll be on. And I want to
• 56:13
  thank him for being on. It was great to
• 56:14
  have him on being so transparent, so
• 56:16
  collaborative. And I want to thank you,
• 56:18
  the listener, for listening to this
• 56:19
  episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
• 56:21
  podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
• 56:23
  From the true north strong and free. Have
• 56:24
  a great day. We'll talk to you next time
• 56:26
  and happy conservation.