Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mom of 2, Stabbed Dead, Stuffed in Hockey Bag; WHO KILLED ORSOLYA GAAL?

Transcript

Mom of 2, Stabbed Dead, Stuffed in Hockey Bag; WHO KILLED ORSOLYA GAAL? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A quiet, upscale neighborhood turns
0:17
Speaker 1: into a murder scene when a gorgeous stay at home
0:21
Speaker 1: mom of two sons is not only brutally murdered in
0:25
Speaker 1: her own basement, but then dismembered. Disturbingly chilling video emerges
0:32
Speaker 1: from doorbell cams that show the killer pulling the dismembered
0:38
Speaker 1: body of this young mom up the sidewalk nearly half
0:43
Speaker 1: a mile away from her home and then just leaving
0:47
Speaker 1: her body there, literally leaving a trail of blood leading
0:53
Speaker 1: back to the family home side door. The only thing
0:57
Speaker 1: we don't know is who murdered a sawya, I mean
1:02
Speaker 1: it's he Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
1:05
Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation and Serious X
1:08
Speaker 1: one eleven. First of all, take a listen to our
1:11
Speaker 1: friends at Picks eleven. Police are still trying to figure
1:14
Speaker 1: out who is pulling this duffel bag containing the body
1:17
Speaker 1: of murder victim fifty one year old or Solja gall
1:22
Speaker 1: a married mother of two teenaged boys. It's an eerie
1:25
Speaker 1: photo provided to Pis eleven by police sources, who also
1:29
Speaker 1: say the killer used the victim's cell phone and sent
1:33
Speaker 1: a text to her husband that read your whole family
1:36
Speaker 1: is next. I couldn't imagine why just what happened to her.
1:40
Speaker 1: I just couldn't imagine. And I hope the husband's able
1:44
Speaker 1: to handle it. Doctor Carl Adler says he used to
1:47
Speaker 1: see Gall and her husband as patients. He says he
1:50
Speaker 1: was devastated when he heard she had been killed, her
1:53
Speaker 1: body stuffed in a Duffel bag and dragged half a
1:56
Speaker 1: mile from the family's Juno Street home. They were very
2:00
Speaker 1: nice people. She's a very lovely woman, very kind and
2:04
Speaker 1: good mother. And I was just devastated. As crime scene
2:07
Speaker 1: detectives continue to gather evidence from inside the family's home,
2:11
Speaker 1: neighbors are still baffled. Hopefully they find whoever did it.
2:15
Speaker 1: You were hearing reporter of Maggie Hickey, but now it's
2:18
Speaker 1: like listen to Kennye Krona picks eleven. Our police sources
2:21
Speaker 1: are revealing new details to us this morning about what
2:23
Speaker 1: happened the night of Orsia Gall's murder, including the chilling
2:27
Speaker 1: text that her killer allegedly sent from her phone. Crime
2:31
Speaker 1: Scene investigators were inside her home on Juno Street overnight.
2:35
Speaker 1: There has been a constant police presence around the clock
2:38
Speaker 1: This is a very fluid and developing situation, but this
2:41
Speaker 1: is what we know so far. According to our police sources,
2:43
Speaker 1: the fifty one year old mother of two told her
2:46
Speaker 1: youngest son she was going out to see a show
2:48
Speaker 1: Friday night. At some point, a man who she knew
2:51
Speaker 1: caught up with her, and that is the man police
2:53
Speaker 1: believe murdered Gall in her basement. He reportedly dragged her
2:57
Speaker 1: out in a duffel bag and dumped the bag about
2:59
Speaker 1: half a mile away. A man walking his jog discovered
3:02
Speaker 1: it early Saturday morning. All we have right now is
3:05
Speaker 1: a picture of that suspect from a neighbor's surveillance camera.
3:08
Speaker 1: Or sources tell us that this man then sent a
3:11
Speaker 1: text to Gall's husband from her phone saying, quote, your
3:14
Speaker 1: wife sent me to jail some years ago. I'm back.
3:17
Speaker 1: Don't call the police or I will kill your family. Wow.
3:22
Speaker 1: Why would a killer take the time and basically give
3:26
Speaker 1: away his identity by sending that text with me? To
3:30
Speaker 1: make sense of what we know right now? An all
3:32
Speaker 1: star panel Matthew Mangino, attorney, former district attorney, author of
3:37
Speaker 1: the Executioner's Toll, Doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists, joining us
3:42
Speaker 1: from the Atlanta Jurisdiction at Angela Arnold, MD dot com.
3:45
Speaker 1: Mona kay private investigator at Mona Kaye Investigations, renowned medical examiner.
3:53
Speaker 1: You know him well. All you have to do is
3:55
Speaker 1: turn on your TV to see this guy, doctor Michael Boden,
3:59
Speaker 1: who I considered to be a longtime friend and colleague,
4:02
Speaker 1: former chief medical exam er in New York and past
4:04
Speaker 1: co director of New York State Police Medico Legal Investigations Unit.
4:09
Speaker 1: But first two special guests joining us in the New
4:12
Speaker 1: York Post, the Police Bureau Chief Tina Moore. Tina, thank
4:17
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Tell me the chronology, the
4:22
Speaker 1: timeline of what we know. I mean, I've got so
4:24
Speaker 1: many questions, Tina. Do we know she really went out?
4:27
Speaker 1: Did she really go out with friends? I mean, how
4:29
Speaker 1: did this guy get to her? Hum? Why did he
4:31
Speaker 1: hitchhike there because there's no car driving in or out?
4:35
Speaker 1: Did he ride with her? How did the thirteen year
4:38
Speaker 1: old son sleep through the whole thing? But you know what,
4:41
Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. Go ahead, Tina. More So,
4:43
Speaker 1: police sources tell us that she did go out with
4:45
Speaker 1: her friends. They talked to the friends. She went to
4:48
Speaker 1: a show in Manhattan. We don't know what show exactly.
4:51
Speaker 1: And then she went back to her to Queen's and
4:55
Speaker 1: she went to a bar there, and police sources tell
4:57
Speaker 1: us they have her on video at that bar about
5:00
Speaker 1: forty minutes. She looks like she's waiting for somebody, but
5:03
Speaker 1: that person never shows up, and she goes home. And
5:06
Speaker 1: that's around midnight. And after that it's not clear what happens.
5:10
Speaker 1: Somebody gets into the house and somebody kills her on
5:13
Speaker 1: the first floor and then takes it to the basement,
5:16
Speaker 1: and then we see the hockey bag throwing down the street,
5:20
Speaker 1: and later her body's later discovered in that bag in
5:24
Speaker 1: the morning. Now, the structure, it looks to me to
5:28
Speaker 1: be at least two stories, if not three, and there's
5:30
Speaker 1: a basement as well. I'm trying to figure out how
5:33
Speaker 1: the thirteen year old son Leo Kline could be all
5:37
Speaker 1: the way at the top and never hear a thing.
5:39
Speaker 1: I guess it is possible. Yeah, I mean, he's thirteen.
5:42
Speaker 1: You know how teenagers are you know? I don't I
5:45
Speaker 1: want to say for sure, but it's possibly. He's on
5:48
Speaker 1: he's got headphones on, he's listening to music, he's not
5:50
Speaker 1: paying attention, he's watching TV something to that effect. You know,
5:54
Speaker 1: I'm very curious about why the text message is basically
5:58
Speaker 1: staging the same. But first I want to go to
6:00
Speaker 1: doctor Michael Boden, former Chief Medical Examiner, New York. Doctor Boden,
6:04
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. It's a
6:06
Speaker 1: real honor and a privilege. Good to be with you, Nancy,
6:09
Speaker 1: doctor Boden. We are now hearing a clarification. We've been
6:12
Speaker 1: told sixty or more like fifty eight, but a lot
6:16
Speaker 1: of defensive ones to the inside of the palm and
6:18
Speaker 1: the inside of the fingers, clearly defensive ones. What do
6:23
Speaker 1: you make of this? Well, number one the number whether
6:29
Speaker 1: fifty eight or sixty, and they're difficult to count out
6:31
Speaker 1: of autopsy. You know, they're good point different. So that
6:36
Speaker 1: like you say, the cuts, maybe one or two or
6:39
Speaker 1: three cup wounds or one cup wounds. But this wasn't
6:44
Speaker 1: a stranger. I mean, the strangers don't do that. They
6:47
Speaker 1: don't stick around and over kill somebody. And now you
6:53
Speaker 1: have three people involved here, you know, the son, the
6:57
Speaker 1: husband not there but arranging it, or whoever this stranger
7:01
Speaker 1: is that may have come in who knew her? Uh,
7:07
Speaker 1: you know, if if she somehow lost consciousness immediately, then
7:16
Speaker 1: the another individual could come in knock her out or
7:22
Speaker 1: stamper she does so there's no not much noise, and
7:24
Speaker 1: then somehow dismembers her. According to the media, that's bizarre
7:34
Speaker 1: and h this doctor, I'm not sure that was mentioned.
7:38
Speaker 1: Doctor Adlover made the comment had seen them. I wonder
7:42
Speaker 1: was he a psychiatrist, seeing them in marriage counseling or
7:47
Speaker 1: just And that was interesting, Doctor Biden, because he said,
7:52
Speaker 1: I guess a neighbor stated he had treated them. Was
7:57
Speaker 1: he a family practitioner? Was he a marriage counselor? But
8:01
Speaker 1: when you are treating a group of people, I think
8:04
Speaker 1: either counseling or a family practitioner that just saw everybody.
8:10
Speaker 1: That's a lot of theories, doctor Biden, that you're throwing
8:14
Speaker 1: out right there, A lot of theories. You mentioned multiple
8:19
Speaker 1: people being involved, You mentioned the husband. Right now, no
8:22
Speaker 1: one has been charged. Police are saying they may have
8:25
Speaker 1: a person of interest. We don't know who that is,
8:29
Speaker 1: Doctor Biden. Let me talk to you about one thing
8:32
Speaker 1: you said at the very beginning. It reminds me of
8:35
Speaker 1: the Jodi Arias case. Remember us talking about that where
8:38
Speaker 1: she's yeah, she stabbed Travis Alexander or her lover about
8:44
Speaker 1: twenty eight twenty nine times and then shot him in
8:47
Speaker 1: the head. As you said, kill them many times over.
8:51
Speaker 1: But the overlapping stab wounds, it's really hard with that
8:56
Speaker 1: many stab wounds to determine how many there really are. Why, well,
9:02
Speaker 1: there are stab wounds that defense how deep they are.
9:05
Speaker 1: Some are superficial, some are defense wounds. It sounds if
9:09
Speaker 1: she's got a bunch of wounds on her hands, it
9:14
Speaker 1: may be that she was defending herself. Now, if she's
9:19
Speaker 1: defending herself, then it takes a she's a lot. She
9:23
Speaker 1: doesn't go unconscious right away, and there's more likely to
9:27
Speaker 1: be noise that others could hear. But this uh business
9:37
Speaker 1: that you that was brought up, that the dragging means
9:40
Speaker 1: that whoever did it didn't have a car is an
9:42
Speaker 1: interesting thought also that if normally, if a stranger comes
9:47
Speaker 1: comes in a car and puts a not a stranger
9:51
Speaker 1: but an assignation, somebody came to see her that she
9:55
Speaker 1: was waiting for in the bar, they come with a car,
9:59
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't be dragging out the person on the street. Absolutely,
10:03
Speaker 1: I mean to you, Mona Ka joining me with Mona
10:05
Speaker 1: Kay Investigations out of Omaha. Mona. Well, the first thing
10:10
Speaker 1: I thought to doctor Boden was about the multiple stab wounds.
10:15
Speaker 1: It's my understanding that when you stab over and over,
10:18
Speaker 1: many of the stab wounds actually go into previous stab wounds.
10:22
Speaker 1: And since flesh it's not immovable, it's really hard to
10:26
Speaker 1: determine how many stab wounds there are, at least fifty eight,
10:30
Speaker 1: which when I go to doctor Angel Arnold can explain
10:33
Speaker 1: what that means about the killer. But mona Ka private
10:37
Speaker 1: investigator joining us out of Omaha. I mean, if I
10:41
Speaker 1: had to get rid of a dead body, I can
10:43
Speaker 1: guarantee you I would not put it in my son's
10:47
Speaker 1: black BarreR hockey bag and drag it in plain view
10:52
Speaker 1: down the street, literally leaving a trail of blood to
10:55
Speaker 1: my side door, and then just go about it. After
10:58
Speaker 1: half a mile ago, I'm tired. I'll just leave it
11:01
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk. What that doesn't even make any sense? No, exactly,
11:06
Speaker 1: that was my first thought. Who you know, with all
11:08
Speaker 1: of the surveillance cameras you know on doorbells, Now, obviously
11:14
Speaker 1: that's probably where the initial surveillance footage was picked up.
11:19
Speaker 1: But um, you know Where did the deffel bag come from?
11:22
Speaker 1: Was it did her son's play hockey? Did it come
11:24
Speaker 1: from the house? Did somebody bring the bag there? You
11:29
Speaker 1: know the same with the knife or what you know?
11:32
Speaker 1: Did the knife come from the home? Did the perpetrator
11:35
Speaker 1: bring it into the house. But you know how many
11:38
Speaker 1: people are going to drag a body in a deffel
11:40
Speaker 1: bag around a neighborhood, out to a busy street and
11:44
Speaker 1: leave it. Who's gonna take that chance? You know what?
11:46
Speaker 1: It's reminding me of, Manique. It's reminding me of Robert Blake.
11:52
Speaker 1: Robert Blake who killed his wife, Bonnie Lee Bakley. Even
11:56
Speaker 1: though Jerry said he did not, I still say he did.
11:59
Speaker 1: Remember in that case, the killer couldn't, for many reasons,
12:05
Speaker 1: get too far from the crime scene. So the killer
12:09
Speaker 1: had to dispose of a weapon and a dumpster a
12:14
Speaker 1: block or two away from the restaurant. Couldn't leave. It
12:18
Speaker 1: didn't fit in with the fact scenario the killer had fabricated.
12:23
Speaker 1: In that case, Robert Blake had gone to a restaurant
12:26
Speaker 1: with his wife. She went to the car, he said, oh,
12:29
Speaker 1: I left my gun at the restaurant. He goes back
12:31
Speaker 1: in and in that those few minutes, the killer attacks
12:35
Speaker 1: Bodily Bakeley, no sex attack, no robbery, shoots her in
12:38
Speaker 1: the head, and the gun has found a block or
12:40
Speaker 1: two away. Interesting, right, in this case, the killer did
12:44
Speaker 1: not get far from the home with the body. I mean,
12:49
Speaker 1: for Pete's sake, dump it in a river, bury it,
12:51
Speaker 1: put it in a trash dump anything except half a
12:54
Speaker 1: mile from the home from the murder scene on the sidewalk.
12:58
Speaker 1: It's like screaming, Hi, I'm a dead body in the
13:01
Speaker 1: Duffel bag, Come and get me and call police. It's
13:04
Speaker 1: just so obvious, mona. Who would do that? Right? What
13:07
Speaker 1: was the point of taking the body from the home?
13:08
Speaker 1: Why not leave her body there? Exactly? And to you,
13:13
Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino, high profile lawyer, former prosecutor, Matthew, unless the
13:20
Speaker 1: killer was wearing gloves, that bag, if it's got a handlebar,
13:27
Speaker 1: and that home is going to be covered with bloody fingerprints.
13:31
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything about the murder weapon being recovered yet,
13:35
Speaker 1: but unless the purps wearing gloves, they're gonna be bloody
13:39
Speaker 1: fingerprints as shoeprints. You're right, Dancy, and I think investigators
13:44
Speaker 1: are probably holding backs and information that they have, particularly
13:48
Speaker 1: with any physical evidence fingerprints, shoeprints, things like that that
13:54
Speaker 1: might be in the home, you know, as well as
13:57
Speaker 1: as the murder weapon. Was it from within the home
14:01
Speaker 1: or or was it taken out of the home after
14:05
Speaker 1: the murder? You know, I think everything at this point,
14:08
Speaker 1: at least initially, if I was investigating, this would would
14:12
Speaker 1: point to somebody inside the home. Okay. Uh, you know,
14:17
Speaker 1: the husband is away in order done with with another child,
14:22
Speaker 1: he receives this mysterious uh text message about killing the
14:26
Speaker 1: whole family. Why why would somebody send a message like that? Um?
14:31
Speaker 1: You know, we know that conveniently there's there's a bag
14:35
Speaker 1: with wheels on it that you can put the body
14:38
Speaker 1: in so you can will it away from the home.
14:40
Speaker 1: So so at this point, um, even though the husband
14:43
Speaker 1: may not be physically involved, I don't think you can
14:47
Speaker 1: uh look away from some other involvement in this some
14:51
Speaker 1: way or somebody else in the home, because there was
14:54
Speaker 1: clearly not a break in, uh it was it seems
14:57
Speaker 1: as though she was someone that she knew, and this
14:59
Speaker 1: was certainly a crime that involved rage. When you stab
15:04
Speaker 1: somebody fifty eight times and mutilate their body. Speaking of
15:08
Speaker 1: the husband was chef. Of course is the first place
15:11
Speaker 1: you look. Take a listen to our cut nine Katie
15:14
Speaker 1: Kardo Picks eleven. Police sources tell Picks eleven News that
15:18
Speaker 1: Gaull's husband and oldest son were out of town Friday
15:20
Speaker 1: night when Gaul reportedly went out with another man, who
15:23
Speaker 1: then murdered her in her basement and drived out her body.
15:26
Speaker 1: According to police sources, a trail of blood led officers
15:30
Speaker 1: back to Gaul's home. The killer also reportedly took Gaull's
15:34
Speaker 1: phone and texted her husband saying, quote, your whole family
15:37
Speaker 1: is next crime stories with Nancy Grace staging a crime scene.
15:54
Speaker 1: Staging a crime scene, I mean doctor Anancy Arnold, renowned
15:58
Speaker 1: psychiatrists joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Who sticks
16:02
Speaker 1: around random killers kill? They rape, they rob, they rape
16:08
Speaker 1: and or they rob, they steal from the home and
16:11
Speaker 1: they're gone. Who sticks around to dismember a body for what?
16:16
Speaker 1: You're just gonna leave it outside on the sidewalk. Why
16:19
Speaker 1: dismember the body? And also why send the text your
16:24
Speaker 1: wife put me in jail some years ago. What that's
16:29
Speaker 1: very odd phraseology? Why stage the scene? A random killer
16:34
Speaker 1: will be out of there. Well, I think that in
16:36
Speaker 1: so many things that we've in so many shows that
16:38
Speaker 1: we've done, Nancy, oftentimes when people stage, when when a
16:42
Speaker 1: scene is staged, it's too it's to put everyone off
16:47
Speaker 1: the track of who actually did it. It's it's part
16:50
Speaker 1: of the lie. Staging of the scene could be part
16:53
Speaker 1: of the lie. The multiple stab wounds we all know
16:58
Speaker 1: come from an intense rage. My curiosity is piqued. I
17:02
Speaker 1: want to know was the family doing family counseling and
17:08
Speaker 1: what was that all about? To me, this is such
17:10
Speaker 1: a big piece, and I know this story is new,
17:13
Speaker 1: but that's where I want to I want to jump
17:16
Speaker 1: in and find out about what was going on with
17:19
Speaker 1: this family. Magda Tina More joining our special guest than
17:22
Speaker 1: York Post Police Bureau Chief Tina. Do you know whether
17:27
Speaker 1: the murder weapon has been recovered? No, I don't know that.
17:31
Speaker 1: That's one sorts that have been keepn pretty close guarded.
17:35
Speaker 1: We know that they never saw the tech messages though,
17:37
Speaker 1: which is curious, and they're waiting for a subpoena for
17:40
Speaker 1: the phone, so, I mean, that's still all up in
17:43
Speaker 1: the air. That's fun interesting. Why why do they have
17:46
Speaker 1: to give mean they're subpoenaing the records, or they're subpoenaing
17:50
Speaker 1: the actual phone. Why doesn't he just hand it over
17:52
Speaker 1: the actual phone? There has to have to get subpoena
17:54
Speaker 1: for it to use it. Why. I mean, I think
17:57
Speaker 1: that's just the usual thing when you're doing an investigation.
18:00
Speaker 1: If you want to build use what's on the phone,
18:01
Speaker 1: you have to legally get the phone. Well, Matthew Mangino,
18:04
Speaker 1: She's right, unless you get permission. You can't just think
18:09
Speaker 1: of a home. You can't just barge into police unless
18:12
Speaker 1: there are extenuating, exigent or emergency circumstances. You have to
18:17
Speaker 1: have a search warrant unless you get permission. Why does
18:20
Speaker 1: the father just hand over the phone? Right? I mean,
18:23
Speaker 1: you know you can always get consent, you know. So,
18:27
Speaker 1: So if there's not exigent circumstances like you just described,
18:31
Speaker 1: or you don't have a search war, you simply ask
18:34
Speaker 1: for the phone and if the party consents, then you're
18:37
Speaker 1: you're in the clear. You don't have any problem with
18:39
Speaker 1: the Fourth Amendment with regard to an unlawful search and season.
18:44
Speaker 1: So if it would seem strange in this scenario that
18:48
Speaker 1: the father who talked about the message, who said that
18:51
Speaker 1: his family was in danger when he was contacted by
18:54
Speaker 1: the media, would now be reluctant to turn that phone
18:58
Speaker 1: over to the police. Now, on the other hand, if
19:01
Speaker 1: the police have seen the messages, but they want to
19:06
Speaker 1: get a search warrant just for whatever purposes, that might
19:09
Speaker 1: make them feel like they have a stronger situation in
19:12
Speaker 1: terms of the phone that people who well, I heard
19:16
Speaker 1: what you just said, Mangino, Yes, makes them feel they've
19:19
Speaker 1: got a stronger situation with the phone. In other words,
19:22
Speaker 1: when one day it's contested in court that they took
19:26
Speaker 1: the phone without permission, they want to make sure they
19:28
Speaker 1: had to want to see why a cover there behind? Right, Yeah,
19:34
Speaker 1: But why would they need to cover their behind from
19:36
Speaker 1: the dad's phone? Well, because it's it's this is an
19:39
Speaker 1: evolving investigation. And as we said earlier, as I said
19:44
Speaker 1: I would, I don't. I'm looking at inside the home
19:48
Speaker 1: right now, I'm looking at people who know are intimately,
19:51
Speaker 1: which would be family members. So I want to make
19:54
Speaker 1: sure that, as you said, Seya, I have a search
19:58
Speaker 1: warrant if in the future somebody turns into a suspect
20:01
Speaker 1: that I don't I might not think as a suspect
20:04
Speaker 1: right now, Tina More. I find that incredibly interesting, curious
20:11
Speaker 1: that they need a search wrant for the dad's phone.
20:14
Speaker 1: But maybe it is out of an abundance of caution,
20:17
Speaker 1: crossing their tees and dotting their eyes. But under the law,
20:21
Speaker 1: if the person gives you consent, gives you permission, Hey,
20:25
Speaker 1: can I come in your house? Sure? Come on, an officer,
20:27
Speaker 1: That's what consent is. Hey, we need to look at
20:30
Speaker 1: your phone. Here, here it is. That's totally constitutional. Right
20:34
Speaker 1: you think of somebody who you think, if you're completely innocent,
20:36
Speaker 1: you turn your phone over. Right. So we have absolutely
20:39
Speaker 1: confirmed that the dad was in Oregon with the older son, who,
20:44
Speaker 1: by the way, apparently it's an incredibly talented pianist. He
20:48
Speaker 1: is in Oregon at the time of the killing. Right. No,
20:53
Speaker 1: I haven't seen any any proof airline, you know, travel
20:56
Speaker 1: records or anything like that. I mean, that's everything is
21:00
Speaker 1: a little up in the area. Now. There's a lot
21:01
Speaker 1: of rumors. I'm seeing a lot of stories popping up
21:03
Speaker 1: in different places that I can't confirm, and people are
21:07
Speaker 1: telling me that's a rumor that's going around. Be careful.
21:10
Speaker 1: So's it's very active investigation. So you're saying he may
21:14
Speaker 1: not have been in Oregon. I haven't seen any any
21:16
Speaker 1: proof of that. Well, neither have I. I haven't seen
21:19
Speaker 1: it myself, but I've seen other pictures where he was
21:24
Speaker 1: on other college tours with the older son, and it
21:28
Speaker 1: is and it is said that he was in Oregon. Guys,
21:33
Speaker 1: we are talking about the murder, horrific and brutal murder
21:37
Speaker 1: of a fifty year old mother or saw you Gail
21:42
Speaker 1: the mother of a seventeen year old and a thirteen
21:44
Speaker 1: year old boy, murdered in her own home. To doctor
21:48
Speaker 1: Michael Boden, former Chief Medical Examiner, New York, doctor Boden,
21:52
Speaker 1: when you get a multiple stab wound victim like this,
21:59
Speaker 1: what does that indicate to you about the killer? We
22:02
Speaker 1: know the killer is a man. Well, it's been a
22:05
Speaker 1: rage reaction that has been mentioned. But what she also
22:09
Speaker 1: dismembered as they report, Yes, go ahead, I'm hearing that
22:15
Speaker 1: may not. She may not have been dismembered. It just
22:17
Speaker 1: she had so many sab wounds on her body that
22:19
Speaker 1: when people look inside the bag, that's what they thought.
22:23
Speaker 1: But yeah, if a person is dismembered, saying a situation
22:26
Speaker 1: like that, it's usually to fit into a play. It's
22:31
Speaker 1: some kind of a device to remove the body. So
22:34
Speaker 1: in the old days in New York City we had dismemberments.
22:38
Speaker 1: When there's the old days in the sixties, and we'll
22:43
Speaker 1: where people be put into steamer trunks or something and
22:46
Speaker 1: sent to California or something, and they chop everything through
22:50
Speaker 1: the dismemberment to fit into the steamer trunk or into
22:53
Speaker 1: this double bag. If that's true. But I think that
22:57
Speaker 1: clearly for a forensic pathology point of it would the
23:00
Speaker 1: rage reaction as were mentioned, and it's by somebody who
23:05
Speaker 1: knew her or was if the husband, for example, arranged
23:11
Speaker 1: with somebody to do it. But if they arranged with somebody,
23:14
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be going out and dragging the body in
23:16
Speaker 1: the street. Exactly. Yeah, that's not a very good arrangement
23:21
Speaker 1: if that's what the arrangement was. It sounds like a
23:24
Speaker 1: kid's stuff. Yes it does. And it's definitely someone that
23:28
Speaker 1: was not didn't have access to a car. Because Monique,
23:32
Speaker 1: you're the private investigator, why would you hide the body
23:36
Speaker 1: a couple of blocks from the home on the sidewalk
23:39
Speaker 1: for a dog covers. Why don't you just put it
23:42
Speaker 1: out at the mailbox. It's just doesn't make any sense.
23:46
Speaker 1: And I want to analyze this text because, you know,
23:49
Speaker 1: the staging of this scene reminds me a little bit
23:53
Speaker 1: of the John ben A Ramsey case, where the killer
23:56
Speaker 1: of John Bena Ramsey felt so at home no fear
24:01
Speaker 1: of being detected, that they killed John Benet, staged her
24:07
Speaker 1: body and then sat there and wrote not just one
24:11
Speaker 1: but a practice note and an actual note on the family,
24:17
Speaker 1: writing on Patsy's pad using her pen, and left it
24:22
Speaker 1: there in the home. I mean, if I had to
24:26
Speaker 1: go in and surreptitiously kill or kidnap somebody, I would
24:29
Speaker 1: try to be in and out. I wouldn't kick back
24:32
Speaker 1: into dinner, put my feet up in front of the
24:34
Speaker 1: fireplace and write a two page ransom note or three
24:37
Speaker 1: page and a practice one. What just like in this case,
24:43
Speaker 1: the person was so at home that, according to reports,
24:48
Speaker 1: they not only murdered her but at least partially dismembered her,
24:53
Speaker 1: stuffed her into bag, took her phone. I guess they
24:57
Speaker 1: knew the code and send a text to the husband,
25:02
Speaker 1: a very mysterious text. What do you make of that, Monique?
25:06
Speaker 1: The person was definitely, you know, seemed very comfortable in
25:10
Speaker 1: the home and like you said needed probably needed the
25:12
Speaker 1: code to access her phone. You know, I don't know
25:17
Speaker 1: what to make of the message that was sent. You know,
25:20
Speaker 1: I think it was something about your wife sent me
25:23
Speaker 1: to jail years ago, so it was in retaliation. But
25:29
Speaker 1: you know, she had defensive wounds. How did the sun
25:31
Speaker 1: not hear her fighting back? I mean, and it was,
25:34
Speaker 1: you know, hours later, four or five hours later that
25:37
Speaker 1: they saw, you know, the person rolling the bag down
25:40
Speaker 1: the street. So there was a lot of time there
25:44
Speaker 1: that this person was in the home. And there was
25:47
Speaker 1: no breaking and entering, so the person was let in
25:51
Speaker 1: or had some access into the home. So what about it,
25:54
Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino this text message? Why bother with a text message?
25:59
Speaker 1: Why why would you do that? Go in? Kill? Leave? Yeah?
26:04
Speaker 1: And the text message is I understand it as you
26:08
Speaker 1: described it. You know, it says that you know, she
26:11
Speaker 1: put me in jail years before, some years ago. Ye raseology, right,
26:18
Speaker 1: And and it says you know something that I find peculiar.
26:22
Speaker 1: Don't call the police. What what do you mean? Don't cry?
26:26
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna ignore. I chopped up wife in the suitcase.
26:29
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna call police, right, I mean that you
26:31
Speaker 1: know that that's kind of, uh, you know, a strange
26:35
Speaker 1: thing to put in a text like this, and as
26:37
Speaker 1: you said earlier, it certainly seemed like a contrived uh text. Uh.
26:43
Speaker 1: You know, there has to be so much evidence though
26:45
Speaker 1: in this house. Uh, you know, if she was killed
26:49
Speaker 1: on the first floor, brought down into the basement, brought
26:52
Speaker 1: back up in a duffel bag, you know, drug down
26:55
Speaker 1: the street, there there has to be a lot of
26:57
Speaker 1: evidence that we don't know about yet in this house.
27:01
Speaker 1: And it and it certainly doesn't sound like a sophisticated
27:06
Speaker 1: planned murder of an individual. You know, it just doesn't
27:12
Speaker 1: seem to add up when you when you look at
27:15
Speaker 1: the text that you look at the body being dragged
27:18
Speaker 1: away in a bag, and you mix that in with
27:22
Speaker 1: the rage in the type of murder again, it really
27:25
Speaker 1: points to somebody inside of the house. Tina Moore joining me,
27:29
Speaker 1: New York Post Police Bureau Chief. I'm hung up on
27:32
Speaker 1: the text message because I think it's very revealing that
27:36
Speaker 1: a killer would take the time to text message, would
27:39
Speaker 1: know who to text message, would have access to her phone.
27:43
Speaker 1: I guess you could do face recognition off her dead body,
27:46
Speaker 1: but uh, why bother with the text message? That's telling
27:51
Speaker 1: me a lot about the identity of the killer. No
27:55
Speaker 1: one has been named a suspect. What do you make
27:58
Speaker 1: of the text message and the draw your wife put
28:01
Speaker 1: me behind bars sun quote some years ago. Well, the
28:07
Speaker 1: dad talked about a text message. But like I said,
28:09
Speaker 1: police sources say they haven't seen this message, so I
28:12
Speaker 1: mean it doesn't exist. Was it a story up front?
28:16
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't know if there was
28:19
Speaker 1: a text message. Yes, you know what, You're right. As
28:23
Speaker 1: of this morning, police still have not seen the text
28:25
Speaker 1: message exactly. Well, the husband, I believe he tweeted a
28:30
Speaker 1: message at one thirty six am. I'm just wondering if
28:34
Speaker 1: that was to establish some type of alibi. Okay, tell
28:37
Speaker 1: me about that. Tina Moore joining us from the New
28:41
Speaker 1: York Post. The dad, the husband wrote a text message
28:44
Speaker 1: at one thirty in the morning. Yeah, he tweeted tweet
28:46
Speaker 1: at one thirty in the morning. So yeah, that might
28:48
Speaker 1: have been to establish from an alibi. But he later
28:51
Speaker 1: took that down. What did he tweet? I think that
28:53
Speaker 1: was the tweet about a book he had read. Um,
28:56
Speaker 1: don't ask me the author. I can't remember. I was
28:59
Speaker 1: top of my head. Yeah, I believe. I read that
29:01
Speaker 1: he tweeted that he was out of town on a
29:04
Speaker 1: college visit. You know, he made that clear, and that
29:08
Speaker 1: he tweeted something about a book that he read regarding Putin.
29:12
Speaker 1: I believed at one thirty in the morning. Yeah, one
29:15
Speaker 1: thirty six am. So my initial thought was, you know,
29:18
Speaker 1: was he trained to establish that he's out of town,
29:20
Speaker 1: to make that clear. But then the tweet was removed.
29:23
Speaker 1: Why was the tweet removed? I don't know. Only he
29:26
Speaker 1: knows Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Angela Arnold Number one.
29:48
Speaker 1: I rarely tweet at one thirty in the morning. I do.
29:52
Speaker 1: I do. However, at one thirty in the morning, I
29:54
Speaker 1: may be online reading crime stories and I want to
29:57
Speaker 1: send it to crime Online or crime Stories at that moment.
30:04
Speaker 1: But to tweet it out to the general public, I
30:06
Speaker 1: mean waking up the producers or that's one thing, but
30:12
Speaker 1: waking up the general public, you know, sending out a
30:15
Speaker 1: tweet at one thirty in the morning, Not that that
30:18
Speaker 1: would wake them up. But that's very unusual, is it? Not?
30:21
Speaker 1: About a book you just read on Putin and then
30:24
Speaker 1: deleting it. Why would you delete it? It's so unusual.
30:27
Speaker 1: Nancy and it's again it speaks to what kind of
30:31
Speaker 1: patterns do these people have in their lives. Is this
30:33
Speaker 1: something they typically do or they typically tweeting each other
30:37
Speaker 1: or tweeting out things at one thirty in the Morning's
30:41
Speaker 1: it all looks it's very unfortunate, it all looks very fishy. Well,
30:46
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, to Matthew Mangino, a tweet does
30:50
Speaker 1: not a murder make. We may think it's odd, but
30:53
Speaker 1: for him it may not be odd at all. Tinamore
30:58
Speaker 1: was at one thirty eastern or one any Oregon time?
31:01
Speaker 1: You know what, I don't know that for sure. I
31:03
Speaker 1: kind of assumed it was eastern. So if he's in Oregon,
31:06
Speaker 1: you got what is that a two hour difference? So
31:08
Speaker 1: they are Mountain are Pacific three the three hour, So
31:12
Speaker 1: for him it wouldn't have been one thirty, which makes
31:15
Speaker 1: it a little bit more normal and in fact very
31:20
Speaker 1: normal if he's up in bed reading a book and
31:23
Speaker 1: sends out a tweet about the book. But what I
31:25
Speaker 1: find ought about it is that he then deleted it.
31:28
Speaker 1: Why would you do that, Tina more very unusual, I'd say, so, Yeah,
31:32
Speaker 1: I'm not sure why he would delete that tweet because
31:34
Speaker 1: it doesn't really make much sense. He can still get
31:37
Speaker 1: the tweet as not as if it's going to disappear
31:38
Speaker 1: entirely like everything online. You know, I've heard two things, Tina,
31:42
Speaker 1: more that the body was discovered by a jogger, and
31:44
Speaker 1: that the body was discovered by a dog walker. Or
31:46
Speaker 1: are they one and the same. I believe it's a
31:49
Speaker 1: dog walker. I mean maybe he was jogging, you know,
31:52
Speaker 1: but he was walking it. He was with a dog
31:54
Speaker 1: for sure. No. I picked up that there was two
31:56
Speaker 1: different people that found the bag, kind of same Teamously, somebody,
32:02
Speaker 1: a walker came upon the bag and called nine one one,
32:05
Speaker 1: and about the same time the person walking the dog
32:10
Speaker 1: found the bag. Also, I heard there was two different people.
32:14
Speaker 1: You know. I'm wondering how we know about the text.
32:19
Speaker 1: The text was sent by the killer too, or saw
32:23
Speaker 1: Ya's or saw Ya's husband, according to him. But as
32:27
Speaker 1: of this morning, Tina Moore, your sources within the police
32:32
Speaker 1: department are saying they have not seen the phone or
32:36
Speaker 1: the texts. As of late last night they were saying
32:39
Speaker 1: they hadn't seen that the text and they were subpoenaing
32:41
Speaker 1: the phone, so something could have happened by now. Do
32:43
Speaker 1: you know Tina Moore, Is this a gated community. No,
32:46
Speaker 1: I don't believe it's a gated community. It's just it's
32:48
Speaker 1: a nice area. Obviously, almost everybody has a doorbell ring,
32:51
Speaker 1: so it's you know, people watch their watched the neighborhood closely,
32:55
Speaker 1: people who lived there. I've read a couple of places
32:57
Speaker 1: that there was it was a gated community. And the
32:59
Speaker 1: reason I ask is that would be just one more
33:01
Speaker 1: barrier now that you can't get around the gate, but
33:05
Speaker 1: one more barrier for the killer to break through in
33:10
Speaker 1: order to commit the murder. And we also understand Matthew
33:13
Speaker 1: Mangina that there was no robbery and no sex attack
33:17
Speaker 1: right well, and that's uh, you know, certainly indicative of,
33:21
Speaker 1: you know, something that's unrelated to what we typically think
33:26
Speaker 1: when someone breaks into a home and murder someone, you
33:29
Speaker 1: know that it's for a sexual assault, or it's or
33:33
Speaker 1: it's for a robbery. If neither of those exist, you know,
33:36
Speaker 1: then that eliminates the randomness of this. This isn't just
33:41
Speaker 1: something that happened because of a crime of opportunity. Somebody
33:45
Speaker 1: comes by and decides to rob the house that ends
33:47
Speaker 1: up killing the homeowner. You know, this again is a
33:52
Speaker 1: crime of rage or passion that was targeted for this
33:56
Speaker 1: specific person. And right now, you know, we have a
34:01
Speaker 1: very limited pool of suspects because who else is going
34:06
Speaker 1: to be able to have access to the home, who
34:09
Speaker 1: doesn't have to break in, who who knows the owner
34:14
Speaker 1: in the home. You know, those are all issues that
34:17
Speaker 1: really narrow the pool of potential suspects. This is what
34:22
Speaker 1: his tech says. Mister Klein refers to an out of
34:25
Speaker 1: state trip and a sense deleted tweet. He mentions hedge
34:30
Speaker 1: funder Bill Browner's new book about Vladimir Putin. Quote, just
34:36
Speaker 1: landed Portland, Oregon before evaluating ann Arbor again with my
34:41
Speaker 1: seventeen year old son. Highly recommend freezing order at Bill
34:46
Speaker 1: browder Man, I follow closely and admired blah blah blah
34:51
Speaker 1: Russian equities to hedge funds like Hermitage. Okay, interesting, So
34:59
Speaker 1: that's saying he just land and now I'm looking at
35:02
Speaker 1: the killer pulling the body in the hockey bag on.
35:06
Speaker 1: It's like a rollerboard, you know, Tina Moore. The killer
35:10
Speaker 1: is right under a street light and you can see
35:14
Speaker 1: a full moon in the background lighting up the whole neighborhood. Yeah,
35:19
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's really it's scary. It's eerie video
35:23
Speaker 1: for sure. You know I'm looking at it and I'm
35:27
Speaker 1: just thinking, Tina More. I mean, Tina, I know you're
35:31
Speaker 1: the police bureau chief at the New York Post, But
35:35
Speaker 1: if you put yourself in the mind of a killer,
35:37
Speaker 1: if you wanted to kill somebody, would you drag their
35:41
Speaker 1: body dismembered in a suitcase up the street? Well? I
35:45
Speaker 1: don't have a car either, but I still wouldn't do that.
35:48
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I'd get one. I mean, yeah,
35:54
Speaker 1: I get a neighbored Thanks Biden. You know what with
35:57
Speaker 1: that comment, I'm gonna keep you in a medical examer's
36:01
Speaker 1: office in the lamp somewhere getting able. Okay, I kind
36:04
Speaker 1: of like that, doctor Boden. No sex attack, no robbery.
36:08
Speaker 1: What does that tell you? You've seen so many homicides? Yeah,
36:12
Speaker 1: I agree with everybody else that this is the kind
36:14
Speaker 1: of an inside job, and I think that somehow the
36:18
Speaker 1: husband is involved in it. No one has been named
36:21
Speaker 1: a suspect or a person of interest. Let me just
36:24
Speaker 1: be clear about that. Go ahead. Well, I'm just saying
36:26
Speaker 1: just involved, just the emotionally upset about it. But that
36:35
Speaker 1: there's so much information and clues at the scene of
36:39
Speaker 1: where the body was found in the duffel bag and
36:42
Speaker 1: at the scene in the house, two different scenes that
36:46
Speaker 1: have lots of trace evidence, and I suspect they're going
36:49
Speaker 1: to be able to make some kind of rest of
36:51
Speaker 1: it in this in about twenty within twenty four hours
36:54
Speaker 1: of this su resolved. There's so much evidence around. Okay,
36:58
Speaker 1: I think I've got the answer. Glenn van Nostrand, out
37:01
Speaker 1: walking his two Rhodesian ridge backs on Saturday morning, stumbled
37:06
Speaker 1: across Miss Gail's body in the duffel bag. The dogs
37:10
Speaker 1: became agitated as they near the bag. He opened it
37:14
Speaker 1: up and thought at first it was a mannequin like
37:18
Speaker 1: a crash test dummy, like equipment being used for something.
37:23
Speaker 1: I didn't think anything of it. Then he noticed or
37:27
Speaker 1: Sawyah's black jeans and a waist, realized he was looking
37:31
Speaker 1: at a body. Miss Gail was lying in a fetal position.
37:37
Speaker 1: That's what we know. His two dogs pick up the
37:40
Speaker 1: scent of blood patches and the cops follow it all
37:45
Speaker 1: the way back to the home. Police are removing items
37:50
Speaker 1: from the family home in boxes and black plastic bags,
37:53
Speaker 1: including a large iMac computer to you, Matthew Mangino, what
37:59
Speaker 1: do you make of that? Well, I think they're trying
38:01
Speaker 1: to piece together the whereabouts of m Orsolia uh and
38:10
Speaker 1: the telephone conversations that she had, maybe the text messages,
38:16
Speaker 1: maybe the emails, instant messaging, all sorts of things that
38:20
Speaker 1: she may have had to kind of recreate that night,
38:24
Speaker 1: recreate the day's leading up to it. Also to look
38:27
Speaker 1: and see what what what other people are doing on
38:30
Speaker 1: the computer as well, what they're looking up, what they're
38:32
Speaker 1: google and what they're trying to find, you know, how
38:36
Speaker 1: how they you know, maybe the reservations to go to
38:41
Speaker 1: Orgon with the Sun to visit another university. So this
38:45
Speaker 1: is all important information and it's routine information that you're
38:49
Speaker 1: going to look at in every case to try to
38:52
Speaker 1: figure out a timeline and the activities of everybody involved
38:58
Speaker 1: leading up into her. Tina Moore, I'm very curious. Video
39:03
Speaker 1: surveillance sees or sawya at a bar and her basically
39:09
Speaker 1: her neighborhood and queens and she sits there about forty minutes.
39:14
Speaker 1: It appears as if she's waiting for someone that never shows. Yeah,
39:18
Speaker 1: that's right, I mean, how could they tell that? But
39:19
Speaker 1: just be looking at her. She's the loans at a bar.
39:22
Speaker 1: Maybe she's looking around, I mean, she's not talking to anybody, right,
39:25
Speaker 1: maybe looking back at the door, maybe looking at her watch,
39:28
Speaker 1: seeing if anybody's coming in. But they could pick up
39:33
Speaker 1: enough that they believe she was there looking for someone
39:36
Speaker 1: that never showed up. Man, I'd want to get her
39:38
Speaker 1: phone as well. Do we have any idea if that's
39:41
Speaker 1: been recovered, Tina, I don't must be. I mean, I
39:44
Speaker 1: would imagine they'd have that by now. Guys, we wait
39:47
Speaker 1: as justice Unfold's tipline eight hundred five to seven seven
39:50
Speaker 1: tips eight hundred five seven seven eight four seven seven
39:55
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend,