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The Intrapreneurs Rulebook with Chuck House · The Innovation Show

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  , you can find so many previous guests from the innovation show,
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  It's the anniversary of that institute.
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  We said that we'd come back to Chuck's rule book, how to be an intrapreneur
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  inside an organization, seven Rules.
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  And actually there's a hidden rule there as well that we'll
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  tell you about in a moment.
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  And then the seven rules of How to Manage intrapreneurs as well.
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  a pleasure to welcome back for our grand finale, author author of Permission denied
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  , the odysseus of intrapreneurship himself.
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  Chuck House, welcome back to the show.
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  Hey, thank you, Aiden.
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  I really appreciate this continuation of quite a story together.
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  It's been fun and but one of the questions I've been getting, you
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  know, you've put some of these out on podcasts and I've gotten some
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  fairly interesting comments back.
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  And, one has to do with the difference between an
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  entrepreneur and an intrapreneur.
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  And the obvious one is that an entrepreneur is building their
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  own company and is starting with, essentially a fresh slate, if you will.
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  And an entrepreneur is actually doing the inside a corporation.
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  And so the place you appeal to for funding, the place you use
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  for your marketing team, et cetera is the corporations team not your
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  own group that you've built up.
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  And a lot of people say, well, entrepreneurship is a lot more fun.
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  Let's talk about that.
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  But the facts are, most of us spend most of our lives as entrepreneurs or,
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  you know, working for someone else.
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  And I'll give you an example.
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  When when Steve Jobs did the first iPhone.
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  That was entrepreneurial or when he did the first you know, apple
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  two would be a better example.
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  But consider the Apple.
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  IPhone 17 was just released iPhone two, three, four, all the way through 17.
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  Every one of those is an intrapreneurial project, not an entrepreneurial project.
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  So the intrapreneurial rules are really pertinent to many more people
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  than the entrepreneurial rules.
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  And we don't cast it that way.
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  And so to me, this is almost an undiscovered segment of of learning
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  and of leadership and issues that every corporation with almost all
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  their employees has to deal with.
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  But we don't cast it that way.
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  You know, we have courses in how to be the leader.
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  We don't have courses in how to do the, these basically blocking and
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  tackling issues for corporations.
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  So that's really part of the point of these rules.
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  And one of the things that happened for you is I just wanna remind those
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  people, maybe you're joining us afresh.
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  You haven't heard the rest of the story.
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  That's okay.
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  Because these rules will work for you regardless.
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  But we may refer to.
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  some of the instances from the book and the experiences that Chuck had.
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  One of them was the relative freedom you had in Colorado Springs in Hewlett
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  Parkard, the air cover you had from your manager, you were essentially
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  headhunted to a career in corporate engineering and HB HQ in Palo Alto,
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  which seems like promotion, Chuck, but with it comes a drawback.
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  And the drawback is now maybe you're not an intrapreneur, maybe
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  you're part of intrapreneur team.
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  And more and more you're a manager of intrapreneurs, which
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  is a totally different thing.
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  It's like that idea of the Peter principle.
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  So you develop two things, the Intrapreneuring manager's real book,
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  but also the intrapreneur rule book.
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  I'm gonna set this up for you and we're gonna go through the seven rules of each.
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  And actually, as I said, there's a hidden rule as well, an important one.
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  But for the rule book for entrepreneurs, you say the entrepreneur by contrast to
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  the entrepreneur, has just one source of finance that is his or her company.
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  The company has to back you.
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  Entrepreneurs don't start companies.
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  They work at them.
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  And if that doesn't work, then what I thought then, you check your brain at
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  the door if you want to keep your job.
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  But as an entrepreneur, you are parentally selling yourself both
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  inside and outside the company.
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  And you benefited from a manager who gave you air cover,
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  as I said, back in Colorado.
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  But you didn't have that anymore, so you had to develop these rules.
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  Seven rules to describe important leadership choices by which
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  an intrapreneur can operate with heavy emphasis on rapid
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  fire exploratory activity.
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  Always testing your thesis on a desired audience, perpetually
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  asking why of your team and.
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  Of your company's approach.
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  But more fundamentally, the rules require clear focus on a goal, the
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  contribution to be made, and on specific things that are crucial to success.
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  Using your team, honoring your supporters, and knowing the territory deeply in
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  terms of feature needs and competition.
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  So with that, let's share the intrapreneur's Handbook
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  over to you to start.
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  it sounds like you wrote the book and I love it.
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  It sounds very good listening to someone else describe it.
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  yeah.
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  So the the first topic are the entrepreneurs rules and and I basically.
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  List them here.
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  I list all seven here, but I'll take them in turn.
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  The first one is make a contribution.
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  And, the point of this came from bill Hewlett directly.
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  It was, we are not looking for incremental improvement.
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  We're looking for fundamental change.
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  And the metric we used to use is if it's 10 times better
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  that's, probably significant.
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  If it's 20% better that's a very small incremental improvement.
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  And so the question is, if you come up with something that's 10
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  times better almost by definition it gets rid of what was prior.
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  So you've almost immediately built a dichotomy where, what you're going to
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  do obsoletes, everything you've done.
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  And you can imagine not everyone is thrilled with that.
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  A lot of the people busy with today's projects think
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  that's really kind of crazy.
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  They can do incremental improvement easily.
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  It's almost like well let me give you an example that, that we would all know,
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  and that is Apple pioneered computing.
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  And then they did music with the iPod.
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  then somebody said, well, if you could do music on a computer,
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  couldn't you do both in one device and we'll call that a, phone?
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  And they built the iPhone and it, got completely ridiculed in Silicon Valley.
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  And especially by Motorola and and the Finn Company building phones on
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  the basis that the sound quality of the telephone call wasn't that good.
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  And, Apple is saying, well.
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  But it's good enough.
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  It's good enough.
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  But you also get music, and you also get computing, and you get
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  all you, get the web and yeah, But the phone quality isn't any good.
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  I was in meetings with Motorola where, the entire executive team was complaining that
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  this thing wasn't a good phone and missing the point of the contribution that it was.
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  So I say make a contribution that's big enough to have impact.
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  And one of the ways you can tell how much impact it has is by how
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  many people it stirs the emotions
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  there's a couple of threads I'd love to pull out here, and reading these ideas
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  sparked for me, and one of the things you wrote was to really empower other people.
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  You have to allow them space and time to make their own mistakes and learn their
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  own lessons, but especially to imbue their own passion into the task at hand.
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  This advice also holds for your bosses, many of whom may seem recalcitrant.
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  Unenthusiastic or downright hostile to some or many of your ideas, and
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  you go on to say, many of us make the mistake of seeing them as the
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  enemy, and we'll come back to that because that's one of the rules.
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  But I just thought about this idea and I, wondered if this ever happened to you.
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  I shared this on a LinkedIn post.
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  In the book 48 Law Laws of Power, Robert Green says, we
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  should never outshine our bosses.
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  And he quotes, I'm quoting him here.
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  He said, everyone has insecurities and when you show yourself in the world and.
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  display your talents, you naturally stir up all kinds of resentment, envy,
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  and other manifestations of insecurity.
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  This is to be expected.
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  He says, you cannot spend your life worrying about the
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  petty feelings of others.
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  With those above you, though, you must take a different approach when it comes
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  to power, outshining the master is perhaps the worst mistake you can ever make.
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  That came to mind at this point because I'm sure you've done that
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  where there was corporate jealousy, especially the times when you were being
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  celebrated on the magazines as well.
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  I love that set of points and we'll talk about that.
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  So, 0.7 of this says, honor Your Bosses.
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  The original book titled Intrapreneuring by Gifford Pinchot iii you know, set
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  the whole stage for this and that, that sort of, he took a picture of my Medal
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  of Defiance with a Polaroid camera.
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  I threw the damn award away.
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  I thought it was a gag gift.
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  And the only reason the world knows about it is his Polaroid shot.
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  But in his book, he specifically says, you need to honor your sponsors.
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  And I changed it in this one to honor your bosses because the
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  point you just made is accurate.
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  What happens?
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  So Gifford's view is honor those people who gave you the air cover, who gave
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  you the sponsorship, that's great.
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  Okay.
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  You know, obviously you wanna honor those, but if you don't honor your
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  bosses, you basically are sawing yourself off, off a eliminatory.
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  And And I think the quote you just gave is, perfect.
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  And for an Intrapreneuri, the bosses are your lifeblood.
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  That is it.
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  And, if you you know, anger them to the point they don't choose to fund you game
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  over, you know, and so yeah I, would absolutely subscribe to that point.
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  Who's the name of that author again?
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  Robert Green.
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  So he writes books on military strategy and this book is
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  called The 48 Laws of Power.
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  That one pretty well.
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  Yeah, I know when I read it, I was like, oh no.
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  That happens in organizations all the time.
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  But you, shared a great example, and this was honoring the Palo Alto
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  leadership who forced you to enter the product development system business.
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  So, the PDS, they weren't high on your list of favorite folk you say, and you
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  spent considerable time debating how to sell your bold new PDS definitions.
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  The solution though was to honor those Palo Alto bosses by inviting a wide RY of
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  their trusted lieutenants and creatively and actively engaging with those
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  visitors on the merits of our program, rather than spending time on charter
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  flights, territorial imperatives, or past history of various divisional slights.
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  so I, thought this was important because you brought them in and you
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  made them part of it, and in a way you made them look like the heroes.
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  I.
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  , in the book, the first project I described was the displays project.
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  And at the end of it, I gave a fairly passionate, discussion about
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  what happens with a new, and we had we had a bunch of people from Bell
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  Laboratories visiting, and it was a nice venue to have a great speech.
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  And I gave this talk about, when you have a great idea people ridicule it or
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  ignore it, and then they try to change it and then they claim credit eventually.
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  So it was that little tongue in cheek thing.
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  And walking out of the meeting, my Dar Howard the, second level
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  boss put his arm around me.
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  He said, my God, he said, you are an.
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  Credible public speaker.
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  He said, that was a fantastic speech.
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  It would be good enough to be on television.
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  In fact, I think that'd be a good place for you to be spending your next career.
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  And he took me outta my job because I basically had, blistered him and,
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  his, you know I'd basically thrown both of my bosses under the bus.
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  So I got an opportunity to be an individual contributor for a while.
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  Thank you very much.
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  When, Logic hit that same phase my conclusion was we have to teach a seminar
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  to them and we put a 25 hour, you know, 10 sessions of two and a half hours
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  each together to teach them about the technologies that were now happening.
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  And what happened was now they become part of the story.
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  And they were a, it took a while and they were pretty, you know, you talk about
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  recalcitrant, I don't use that word in, in most conversations, but I did write it.
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  And they, moved from being you know, really antagonistic to
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  becoming understanding and.
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  You know, they weren't they didn't, wanna manage it themselves, but they understood
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  why we needed the resource and why we needed the, path we were following.
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  And it changed everything.
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  And then when Pisces happened the issue there was we were ordered to do that by
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  Palo Alto, which rankled me a fair amount.
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  And it took a while to realize it was actually a, an opportunity rather
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  than, you know, it's one of those things, you know, when given lemons,
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  you ought to worry about lemonade.
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  And but when we were done we had solved a problem that the whole
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  corporation had to, at two levels.
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  One was the project solved a real competitive problem between
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  HP and Intel which at the time were fiercely competitive.
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  But more importantly, HP had not learned how to manage the systems business.
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  We were a products company, not a systems company.
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  what we did with Pisces was build a 14 division consortium to
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  build a systems quality product.
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  And, Palo Alto, when they understood that, that's why I got the, nod
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  to go to Palo Alto you know, was now that was not my plan.
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  I didn't sit down and say I'd like a ticket to Palo Alto.
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  In fact, you know, that was the enemy as far as I was concerned.
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  But I couldn't treat them that way because really we, formed a partnership
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  around new ideas and that I, think that's a crucial thing that, that
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  Intrapreneurs have a hard time learning.
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  So we've done one in seven.
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  So number two is do your own market research.
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  And I have shared the story of you doing this to so many people where
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  you'd built the XY display box.
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  So this is what gives us computer screens today.
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  This is the A prototype essentially.
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  But as you say, there was a tepid response from your home division,
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  from marketing who almost killed it.
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  But you got it out into the field, you took it out into the world and showed
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  it to people, and you had 20 customers enthusiasts lined up all of a sudden.
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  So the key of you doing that work versus handing it to somebody else who probably
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  doesn't really deeply understand it, but also doesn't really understand how to
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  present it to people is absolutely key.
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  That's true, and I can think of several other examples when
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  we started the logic business.
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  The same thing.
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  I, and it, this talks to two things.
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  One is do your own research and and use your team.
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  We, our conclusion was we didn't know we were analog circuit designers.
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  Basically, that's what oscilloscopes was.
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  And, we're purporting to build tools that will measure digital SY signals.
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  Well, we didn't have any digital designers, so, we had to go see 'em.
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  And the notion was how many do you wanna see?
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  And what we, and I had a team of 20 and I said, every person has to
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  spend a week in front of a digital designer somewhere this year.
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  Come home and describe what you saw.
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  what happened was we got, you know, people went out and saw TTL Logic.
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  They saw ECL Logic.
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  They saw low frequency, high frequency, intermediate frequency.
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  They saw synchronized systems and asynchronous systems.
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  And, so it was a cacophony of conflicting kinds of data.
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  But as you listen to the set of people, we were able to coalesce around
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  something that none of us underst.
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  It's the Indian proverb about the elephant.
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  One guy's got the trunk and one of the guy's got the leg and one the tail.
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  And they're all trying to describe something imperfectly
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  for just the piece they saw.
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  And so my point about do your own market research is you've gotta be
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  part of that research in the field.
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  So that you, have some way to ascertain, truth versus bullshit.
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  And, but if it's a big problem, you've gotta use the whole team to do it.
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  And the, beauty of that is the whole team then together will kind of
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  start to share the same viewpoint.
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  We're you're bringing them along faster than you would if you
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  did the work all by yourself and then tried to explain it to 'em.
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  It's just it's a nuance, but it's an important one.
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  The know your competitors.
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  I'll, tie in there, because one of the best ways to do things is, to
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  find out where they're successful.
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  And why they're successful.
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  We had the good fortune to actually stand in one of our competitors'
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  booths for a day and show their new product to their potential customers.
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  And I mean, talk about an unusual situation.
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  But you can do that, , I mean you call on a prospective customer, they've got
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  the competitor's product there, and you just ask 'em how are you using that?
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  And what?
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  else would you need that it doesn't do?
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  And then to my way of thinking I wanna know who the people are inventing those.
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  Not, just what did they build, but why did they build it?
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  What's in their head?
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  What vision are they chasing?
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  so I spent a fair amount of time with professional societies
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  and public forums, if you will.
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  Trying to get to know my competitors, as people, who are
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  they , what wakes them up at night?
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  Sometimes can give you a tremendous insight for where your competitive
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  pressures are gonna come.
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  that's that one.
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  The, ask why all the time.
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  That's just the basic curiosity thing.
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  The 4-year-old comes in, why is the sky blue?
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  Well, because, why, where does the sky stop?
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  You Well, where is heaven?
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  You know?
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  The a 4-year-old can drive you wild with that.
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  But you almost need that questioning capability, that curiosity for
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  new visions, because no one knows, where does this lead?
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  What , so when we got thrust in the Pisces business, for example there were
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  30 companies already in the market.
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  We, we didn't even know what the word meant.
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  So we had to, we couldn't buy a dictionary that would tell you,
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  but, we had to ask customers, what are you doing with this thing?
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  Well, it's an emulator, emulate what?
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  And so we had to learn a vocabulary and a, and all of that.
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  But having done so, then the question is, well, what, would
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  be a contribution in that world?
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  And why?
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  And so you hear a bunch of things and you, know, your team is bringing back these
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  partial threads and that's where this number five comes in, iterate like crazy.
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  We built some prototypes.
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  We actually built four major prototype differences.
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  And we tried 'em on people we sent 'em out to, a potential customer.
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  We had the advantage.
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  We could use HP divisions as potential customers, and they,
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  wouldn't be fiercely , antagonistic.
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  And, so you'd keep the features that worked and you'd throw the
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  features away that didn't work.
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  I wrote a book about Hewlett Packard history a few years
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  ago for Stanford press.
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  Tout the book but the key thing about the book is my, co-author and I
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  thought we understood HP pretty well.
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  We wrote a 500 page manuscript passed it to like 10 of our trusted friends at hp.
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  uniformly, they said, this is bullshit.
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  I mean, they said, you're telling your story.
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  You're not telling the Hewlett Packard story.
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  How would you come at that?
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  Well, so we interviewed 500 people and coalesced a story out of that.
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  The next version we wrote read like a high school yearbook.
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  You know, it was about the dullest thing.
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  It was factual, here's what happened.
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  And then, in June, this, and then in, in September, this,
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  who the hell's gonna read that?
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  You know?
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  So the third pass, seven years later, got a manuscript that we felt had some heft
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  and some excitement to read it and and pass the muster of the HP people who said,
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  wow, this does capture the corporation.
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  So the iterate like crazy works not just in product design,
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  but in all sorts of things.
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  And Chuck I wanted to pull out a few of those because , I'll come back to
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  a couple of them, but this one, while we're on iterate, , like crazy, I'm sure.
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  with your book as well, you had to actually delete some chapters and some
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  chapters you're like kind of going, oh, I think I should have that, but I can't.
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  But this also applies then to entrepreneurship because you
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  say entrepreneurs have to be able to kill their own ideas,
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  Absolutely.
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  is really tough.
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  You did it Well, with the D, with the, du, but it is a difficult thing to do.
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  Well, the, you know, I mean when you're writing a book that problem hits you all
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  the time when you're doing interviews, I mean, I've done I call 'em PIP
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  interviews previously important people.
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  I've interviewed almost a thousand people for the Computer History Museum.
• 23:03
  For IEEE for a CMI did it for the Cisco Foundation, you know, and and and you have
• 23:11
  an hour to two hours of people and they're choose, you're choosing as the interviewer
• 23:16
  and they're choosing as the interviewee what to say and what not to say.
• 23:21
  And, you know, volumes get left on the table.
• 23:25
  It is like editing a film.
• 23:26
  You know the, outtakes are sometimes the most interesting.
• 23:30
  On that Chuck, like one of the things I find very frustrating is
• 23:34
  like you were saying how in depth these interviews are, but what.
• 23:38
  Mostly happens is you'll get sent a book and you'll get sent a list
• 23:41
  of questions to ask the author.
• 23:43
  And I, kind of find it a little bit insulting that somebody else will send me
• 23:48
  what they think is important from the book versus when you read a lot, you know this,
• 23:53
  I can see your shelves there behind you.
• 23:55
  For those people looking at us on YouTube, when you read a lot you,
• 23:58
  end up activating different parts of what's relevant but what's also
• 24:02
  relevant to your audience then versus what someone else thinks is relevant.
• 24:06
  And I think that's the key thing.
• 24:07
  And it's like everything in life, when you have a bit more experience.
• 24:10
  Yeah, tho those bookshelves, by the way, are fairly empty because I,
• 24:14
  we're packing the move and I, you know, we just we just called 600
• 24:19
  textbooks of you know, histories of this company and that company and all.
• 24:24
  I mean, I've been an inveterate collector of all this stuff, but yeah.
• 24:28
  I'm sure it's probably worth the fortune, but you were saying about
• 24:31
  the idea of being consistently curious and we'll talk, we'll come back to
• 24:36
  that about asking why all the time.
• 24:38
  And this was rule number four, ask why all the time.
• 24:42
  But one of the things, and I'm just linking in some of the book here, some
• 24:46
  of the stories you shared was, remember the time you went to a customer and
• 24:51
  you weren't at the customer for this reason, but you were looking at their
• 24:54
  scopes and there was missing parts.
• 24:57
  And you stopped to inquiring, kinda go, what?
• 24:59
  What's going on here?
• 25:00
  Why is there several parts being removed?
• 25:03
  And they explained that it didn't work the way they wanted
• 25:05
  it to without removing them.
• 25:06
  And this led to a huge insight for your display box.
• 25:11
  Yeah, and I, that was one of those epiphany moments.
• 25:16
  You know I'm on the tour to see this stuff at a military provider, and
• 25:22
  usually you don't get into those kind of environments, but I was allowed
• 25:25
  in, I it wasn't confidential, but it was a privileged opportunity Pieces
• 25:30
  of equipment, these te scopes are sitting there with blank panels or,
• 25:36
  hole actually just holes in the panels.
• 25:38
  And I'm, I, what the hell?
• 25:40
  They, these look incomplete.
• 25:41
  You know what happened?
• 25:43
  they said, well, those parts got in the way of the measurement.
• 25:46
  And they had some dielectric coefficients that were changing
• 25:51
  with humidity and whatever.
• 25:52
  You know, I, I don't remember the detail, but I, but they knew the
• 25:57
  detail had to be fixed by removing the parts and that, so my, you
• 26:01
  know, I go, well, why'd you do that?
• 26:03
  And how'd that work?
• 26:04
  And did you talk to Techtronics?
• 26:06
  Well, why would we talk to them?
• 26:07
  You know, we were solving our problem and a year and a half later we, had
• 26:12
  almost an analogous case on the display system, which that was not at all
• 26:17
  what I was out there for or had even thought about, you know, at the time.
• 26:21
  And I remembered this thing, and you go.
• 26:23
  Oh my God.
• 26:24
  That, you know, so that was a key insight to simplifying a product that,
• 26:28
  that, you know we, wanted to appeal to people that weren't buying oscilloscope,
• 26:33
  but they just needed a display.
• 26:35
  And this idea of just getting outside the building, you were a huge believer
• 26:39
  in this, and we'll talk about this later on when you fund your entrepreneurs
• 26:42
  and get them outside the building.
• 26:44
  But I wanted to link it to the idea of know your competitors, because again, by
• 26:49
  you say, one of the best ways to know your competitors is to actually hang out and
• 26:53
  know and love your own customers because they'll tell you about your competitors,
• 26:57
  what they're doing wrong, what they're doing right, what they're trying to
• 27:00
  solve, and they won't even realize That, they're doing So in many cases, I thought
• 27:04
  that, was a really important point.
• 27:06
  well we had the advantage that HP was a terrific, competitor.
• 27:11
  You know we, we, were known for building high quality instrumentation.
• 27:16
  And, and so the, our, ethics were never questioned.
• 27:20
  Our credibility wasn't questioned.
• 27:23
  And Techtronics was the same way.
• 27:25
  And so people treated us almost as instrument consultants.
• 27:30
  And so, you know, so it was a very natural thing to ask.
• 27:33
  Well, you know what, what, aren't they doing?
• 27:36
  Well, you know if, they had this, but we can't persuade them to do it.
• 27:40
  Oh, really?
• 27:41
  You know, listen up.
• 27:42
  This could be good.
• 27:44
  But I find that, you know, we did some work five or six years ago around the
• 27:48
  COVID Pandemic and almost instantly found that epidemiologists people who
• 27:55
  study disease transmission and whatnot are very familiar with statistical forms
• 28:02
  that I'll call 'em geo spatial maps.
• 28:07
  Coral Plus is the word they go by.
• 28:09
  they knew all about that.
• 28:11
  They knew about the value of per capita pictures.
• 28:15
  Public health officials know none of that.
• 28:18
  And so what was happening is the public health officials are talking
• 28:22
  to the TV channels about where these diseases are happening.
• 28:27
  And, they gave you absolute numbers.
• 28:29
  And what happened was Los Angeles, New York, London, Paris
• 28:34
  you know, Madrid all looks bad.
• 28:36
  Okay.
• 28:37
  Dublin actually looked pretty bad too.
• 28:40
  And And so they would show these maps of where the hotspots were as
• 28:45
  judged by total number of cases.
• 28:47
  And, it turns out, you know, most of rural America had no problem whatsoever.
• 28:53
  Most of anywhere rural had no, but if you did it on a per capita basis,
• 28:57
  the worst places in the world was a place in Lombardi, Italy, a place
• 29:02
  in in northern Spain and North Dakota, and South Dakota and America.
• 29:09
  And you go, really?
• 29:10
  You know, well, so, so here's the problem.
• 29:14
  We've shown on television for six or eight weeks where, the problem is
• 29:19
  as shown by the absolute, and then the governors all put in lockdowns.
• 29:24
  This happened by nations all over the world.
• 29:27
  You know, we need a lockdown.
• 29:28
  We need a lockdown on all of Italy.
• 29:30
  Huh?
• 29:31
  You know, what do you mean There's out here in the boondocks,
• 29:34
  we're not having a problem.
• 29:35
  Well, you are if you see this map.
• 29:37
  So they belatedly showed the maps and it turns out everybody said, oh, you're
• 29:43
  showing us maps to defend your decision.
• 29:45
  Those are fake maps.
• 29:46
  So you have this, blowback, uh, from people, you know, and
• 29:52
  it didn't need to be that way.
• 29:55
  And, so my, point there basically is, you've gotta be conversant with
• 30:00
  the data and you've gotta understand the issue in the terms that are gonna
• 30:05
  be meaningful for the recipient.
• 30:08
  And I think your, opening there really spoke to that.
• 30:12
  there's a great line that the map is not the territory.
• 30:15
  That whole idea of just get out.
• 30:17
  Oh I had a gal one time.
• 30:19
  I was giving a commencement speech, in Utah of all places and a bunch of PhDs.
• 30:27
  And the question was and I was espousing that a wider perspective
• 30:33
  is crucial to understanding, your situation for innovation.
• 30:38
  and and the travel was a great way to do that.
• 30:41
  And some gal raised her hand and said, well I'm from Uzbekistan.
• 30:46
  And I might be pronouncing that wrong but I'm from the, one of the
• 30:51
  stans and and I'm here now in Utah.
• 30:54
  I went through London in order to get, over here where should I travel?
• 30:59
  And I said, have you been to China?
• 31:01
  And she said, no, but I've read books about it.
• 31:05
  I've watched films about, I know about China.
• 31:10
  And I said, well, let me ask this.
• 31:12
  When you were in Uzbekistan or London and you read about the United States
• 31:17
  was that the same as when you got here?
• 31:19
  Oh.
• 31:20
  I have a postcard.
• 31:22
  I have a postcard.
• 31:23
  I've been there.
• 31:23
  It may as well be there.
• 31:25
  So Chuck we'll get back to the list.
• 31:27
  So the last one we have, because we did seven, is it's number six.
• 31:31
  And you referred to this earlier on and was, this is to use your team.
• 31:35
  And what you say here is teams come in many sizes and they
• 31:38
  may or may not be co-located.
• 31:41
  And with your XY display team, it was quite small and each ME member contributed
• 31:46
  heavily to the definitions, possible users, specs, et cetera, et cetera.
• 31:51
  And each member of the DU team contributed features.
• 31:54
  Features that the next team, the digital scope team spent considerable,
• 31:58
  time validating and refining before dismissing some ideas and pursuing others.
• 32:04
  But you talk here about how.
• 32:06
  When the team grows bigger, you may have to start even flipping
• 32:10
  into educating them a bit more.
• 32:12
  Maybe sales teams, like you said before, that you have to activate the sales team.
• 32:16
  You need them on side.
• 32:18
  I think the, point.
• 32:20
  Of that for me, the use your team showed up most when I was doing Pisces.
• 32:26
  Said, we had, we wound up using product capability technology
• 32:31
  really from 14 divisions.
• 32:34
  I, hadn't been to 14 divisions.
• 32:37
  I didn't know which ones to use and no one else did either.
• 32:41
  everybody knew two or three divisions.
• 32:44
  And so they're out traveling and they're and they've got a partial view of our
• 32:49
  vision, you know, these are my team.
• 32:52
  And, they would bring those back and they would try and feed in what
• 32:56
  they understood from division A or division C or whatever to how it might,
• 33:02
  you know, gel with something else.
• 33:05
  And my point there about using the team was, unless you had that team basically
• 33:11
  operating the same way you do, you know, knowing what's out there, doing their
• 33:15
  market research, asking why you, couldn't stitch something like that together.
• 33:20
  I didn't realize it at the time, but I was encouraging others to
• 33:23
  be entrepreneurial on our behalf.
• 33:29
  And the, I think the bottom line here Aidan is.
• 33:34
  If you give people power have input
• 33:40
  it's so galvanizing.
• 33:42
  I've had people say, you know I, brought the keyboards in for, Pisces,
• 33:47
  it, they don't identify with all of Pisces, but I brought the keyboards
• 33:51
  in Collins division or from Singapore division, wherever it came from.
• 33:56
  And they have ownership.
• 33:58
  What you're building is a, loyalty based on participation.
• 34:04
  it's the difference between, listening to us the teacher in
• 34:08
  class versus you giving a segment.
• 34:10
  that's a really important point for intrapreneurs.
• 34:14
  They want to be involved.
• 34:15
  They actually they may seem like they're naysayers or they're disgruntled, but
• 34:21
  actually it's probably a source of, it's probably a form of ADHD where it's like
• 34:26
  going, I'm actually much more active when I'm involved and I'm involved
• 34:30
  in the decision making, et cetera.
• 34:31
  I, I often think that, Chuck, but I wanted to show on our screen the
• 34:36
  seven, so this is what we covered.
• 34:37
  Make a contribution, do your own market research, know your competitors.
• 34:41
  Ask why all the time, iterate like crazy.
• 34:43
  Use your team and honor your bosses.
• 34:46
  But there's another one, and I'm gonna let you I, love this one.
• 34:50
  This one is Carpe Diem.
• 34:52
  Seize the day.
• 34:53
  I mean, there's no time like the present, you know, like, like you can have
• 34:59
  great ideas and great ideas, and then someone else introduces your product.
• 35:03
  That'd be that's a, downer.
• 35:05
  it goes a bit deeper than that though, Chuck.
• 35:07
  I loved what you said here.
• 35:08
  It's like you, you mentioned Gifford, Pinchot again here, and he said, come
• 35:14
  to work every day, willing to be fired.
• 35:17
  And you certainly did that.
• 35:19
  Well I never thought of it that way.
• 35:21
  I, was on the Jane Polly show, the Today Show, and I said I didn't think about
• 35:26
  it as being labeled liable to be Fired.
• 35:28
  I thought of it as I was doing the best job for the company that I
• 35:32
  could I wasn't worried about my boss, I was worried about the company.
• 35:37
  didn't always endear me to the boss, you know, so that, that's why I had to put
• 35:41
  that honor your boss's point in there.
• 35:44
  But you did say that you struggled with that all the time, all throughout your
• 35:48
  life, and later on you actually say, and this is a nice segue to get us into
• 35:53
  the entrepreneur side because you say being an entrepreneur is much easier, you
• 35:57
  concluded than being a manager of one.
• 36:00
  So you're showing empathy here for actually, well, those poor guys
• 36:04
  have to manage somebody like me.
• 36:05
  But that insight helps you then build the manager intrapreneuring
• 36:10
  manager's playbook, which fuels the last chapter of the book.
• 36:13
  So we're gonna do this.
• 36:15
  Then we're gonna do a last episode where we're gonna share some of the
• 36:19
  tools that Chuck has developed, and in particular, he's been inspired,
• 36:24
  hopefully partly by this Chuck, to write more of the book, to actually do an
• 36:28
  updated version as well with new rules, new tools, and we're gonna give you a
• 36:32
  little hint of that little, tip of the hat to the future in the next episode.
• 36:37
  But let's get into these, Chuck.
• 36:39
  The first is to develop the vision and mission before strategy and tactics.
• 36:43
  Well that, yeah, so we've shifted to the entrepreneurial manager side, so,
• 36:49
  so I, think the issue I had going on in my own mind, as we moved to Pisces
• 36:56
  was I had brought for the displays business for the logic analyzer business.
• 37:02
  I, was a key part of the set of ideas that we embodied.
• 37:08
  So I, I had some of the original vision, maybe most of the original
• 37:12
  vision I'll say some of it.
• 37:15
  And and we, I was carrying out my ideas, if you will, in these products.
• 37:21
  Okay.
• 37:22
  Pisces, we were told to do it.
• 37:25
  And and in particular, being told to do it, they weren't my ideas at all.
• 37:31
  I didn't know, I didn't know the field.
• 37:32
  I didn't have any perspective on the field, but I were being told to do it.
• 37:37
  And the question now, given that I've got a number of entrepreneurs, I've trained,
• 37:43
  you know, working for me and, we're gonna be assigned to this thing we don't know
• 37:46
  anything about, we can use, they, they can all use the entrepreneur's rules,
• 37:52
  but I can't, I have to manage them in a situation that I don't a understand.
• 37:58
  And I don't feel good because I'm not able to contribute anything technically.
• 38:03
  So what's my role?
• 38:05
  And I, so I almost had an identity crisis.
• 38:08
  As I on it, it, this might have taken more years than I'm gonna describe here.
• 38:15
  I realized that I was, I had moved to becoming a, manager of entrepreneurs.
• 38:23
  and not an intrapreneur myself.
• 38:26
  And that the rules that I had to guide them by were radically different than
• 38:32
  the rules I used as an intrapreneur that's where this list came from.
• 38:37
  And as time has gone on, I've realized this is the piece we don't teach anybody.
• 38:43
  We don't teach how to, we teach how to be a manager to schedules and
• 38:47
  targets and costs and features and, you know, you've got Gantt charts and
• 38:51
  per charts and agile technology and every, you know, the lean design skills.
• 38:58
  And I mean we tout all that and we teach that in the business schools
• 39:02
  and in the technology schools.
• 39:05
  But we don't teach how to manage these mavericks on these things that are truly,
• 39:12
  know, breakthrough and contributing where they're running up against it.
• 39:16
  The same obstacles I ran up against.
• 39:18
  So, so that's where this list came from.
• 39:21
  And, to say you have to develop the mission and vision first is you have to
• 39:26
  have some idea where you're trying to go.
• 39:29
  Before you can decide how to guide somebody to go there, right?
• 39:34
  I This sort of sounds, you know, intuitively obvious, but
• 39:38
  it's crucial to have a sense.
• 39:41
  So, so the, in our case, we got the advantage.
• 39:44
  Palo Alto told us where you're gonna go, you're gonna go into this emulation field.
• 39:51
  Because there's these other 30 companies that, in particular, one
• 39:54
  of 'em is kicking our butt, okay?
• 39:57
  What they didn't say was how to do it.
• 39:59
  They said, this is where we want you to go.
• 40:02
  So the, mission and the vision is go, conquer that world.
• 40:08
  We have no idea how to do it.
• 40:10
  We're pretty sure you could figure that out, okay?
• 40:14
  if we didn't have that guidepost, we wouldn't have known what to work on.
• 40:18
  So that's why that's first.
• 40:20
  And then the question is, who wants to sign up for that?
• 40:24
  You know, I mean, we've got a lot of people happy with logic analyzers.
• 40:29
  We're now King of the Hill, you know in a small hill.
• 40:33
  But we're king of the hill and we love it.
• 40:36
  And, most of my players had, been part of that three or four year
• 40:40
  tour to become King of the Hill.
• 40:43
  And so you say who, wants to volunteer for a whole new assignment in an area?
• 40:48
  None of us know anything about and about four people stood forward out,
• 40:52
  out of, by then we had maybe 40.
• 40:55
  And so 10% raise their hand.
• 40:59
  And so identifying 'em was pretty easy.
• 41:02
  Uh They'd been rabble-rousers on the last group.
• 41:05
  You know, what we really ought to be doing is that kind of, uh, when I.
• 41:10
  I, married a girl 40 years ago who's a PhD out of Berkeley in computer science.
• 41:17
  Very, smart lady, very accomplished.
• 41:20
  She's actually working on a documentary about some of her life
• 41:24
  in computer education circles.
• 41:27
  But she several times said, why do you have this guy on your staff?
• 41:32
  You know what a pain in the ass he is.
• 41:34
  Or, you know she, had different words, but, you know, this guy is a total jerk
• 41:41
  or, irritant , and he's driving you wild.
• 41:44
  Why do you put up with that?
• 41:45
  And the answer is, he's my key entrepreneur.
• 41:48
  Without him, we wouldn't have those innovative juices,
• 41:52
  and he, provokes the team.
• 41:54
  He provokes me.
• 41:56
  And, the problem is he's usually right.
• 41:58
  , I'd rather have him than have him on the competitor team.
• 42:01
  So that's the identify your key intrapreneurs.
• 42:04
  it's a really key point I think, that they're not wired.
• 42:09
  I would say we put myself in there as well.
• 42:11
  You're not wired the same.
• 42:12
  You see the world differently Also.
• 42:15
  You have you, feel, you have to speak up , when I was in those roles, I felt I was
• 42:21
  being false to myself and I, was holding back and, I'd feel like a, in a, part of
• 42:27
  me was rotting if I didn't tell the truth.
• 42:30
  I like that the example I had in the book about the gal that IBM bought
• 42:35
  their company, you how's it going?
• 42:38
  Well, I just, I show up, I check my brain at the door.
• 42:42
  know, what a, what an awful thing to say.
• 42:45
  And this gal was like 27 years old, and, obviously bride as a
• 42:49
  whip, , I should go look her up.
• 42:51
  These days.
• 42:52
  I have a story about someone like that from I, I, ran a college for a digital
• 42:58
  arts college about 12 or 14 years ago.
• 43:01
  And we were first rate building movies from digital capability.
• 43:09
  and I, it doesn't matter how I got 'em together about it, I got the
• 43:13
  whole group together and I said we are getting a new teacher and a, couple
• 43:19
  new teachers and some new people.
• 43:21
  We can add some new courses.
• 43:23
  What would you like?
• 43:24
  And, this was maybe 2011.
• 43:26
  And they, well, we'd like to do swarming robots and we'd like to do some some
• 43:32
  artificial intelligence early study, actually machine learning stuff.
• 43:37
  And we'd love to do some high security stuff.
• 43:41
  Okay.
• 43:41
  So we went through all that and then one gal in the front of the
• 43:44
  row, and I'd never heard her say anything African American young lady
• 43:50
  and always so shy and painfully shy.
• 43:55
  And she raised her hand and said, I'd like more math.
• 44:00
  And I said, really, you?
• 44:02
  And the whole room was like, oh, come on lady.
• 44:05
  You know?
• 44:06
  I said, what would you like?
• 44:07
  And she said, I'd like conformal mapping and convolution intervals.
• 44:11
  And I hadn't heard those words in 50 years.
• 44:15
  That those are two of the three small Cs of calculus.
• 44:18
  And And I said, well, how about celestial mechanics?
• 44:22
  She said, I don't need that.
• 44:24
  And so anyway, then the question of, my provost was asked, I wanna know by
• 44:29
  Friday why she wants those two things.
• 44:32
  And it turned out it had to do with keeping her avatar dressed.
• 44:36
  When he jumped, you know, huh?
• 44:39
  The shirt stayed on the, bench when he jumped to, to save a friend.
• 44:44
  Wow.
• 44:45
  And but the, sequel is this, so no one in the class knew her, who she was.
• 44:51
  She asked that she wound up being the star of the class.
• 44:55
  She went from there to Tesla and she won the Intel Grand Challenge,
• 45:00
  and now she's at where is she?
• 45:02
  She's at Google doing, and she's, today, she's 30 years old, you know, I mean
• 45:07
  there was, an, , intrapreneur in training just going at it and, you,
• 45:13
  so it's easy to identify sometimes.
• 45:16
  And as, we'll talk about in a moment, you have to empower them as well.
• 45:19
  So number three and this one I thought it's the least intuitive of them.
• 45:23
  Define your development and speculative portfolio.
• 45:27
  And the question you ask here, is how do you help your
• 45:30
  intrapreneurs to get more grounded?
• 45:33
  Well include them in your strategic planning meetings, empowering them to put
• 45:37
  their ideas forward in a group setting, just like that lady you mentioned.
• 45:41
  So what I thought when I, there are two things that drive that, that point.
• 45:47
  first is section four, which we haven't really discussed, and we discussed it a
• 45:52
  little bit I guess in the last session.
• 45:55
  But the point is you can think in terms of a project, you can think
• 46:00
  in terms of a program has multiple projects in it, and a strategic
• 46:04
  cycle has multiple programs in it.
• 46:07
  so, there's a time sequence to these and they unfold.
• 46:11
  But there's a lot of things that happen in a portfolio.
• 46:15
  Okay.
• 46:16
  And so what, happens if you've got these intrapreneurs, bounce,
• 46:22
  bouncing around with great ideas?
• 46:24
  Not every idea can be pursued in the first round.
• 46:28
  And so one way I dealt with it once we had a big enough team that this mattered
• 46:33
  is you would essentially I won't say pigeonhole, but you would position ideas,
• 46:40
  you know that'll work in phase one.
• 46:43
  This'll work better in phase two.
• 46:45
  And so you designed a portfolio of introductions around a strategic cycle.
• 46:51
  So what we did with Pisces was we have to master two things.
• 46:57
  The controller mechanism.
• 46:59
  We're gonna have multiple terminals.
• 47:01
  It, is it gonna be a master controller or can it be a shared control system?
• 47:05
  And how do we tie the advantage of all of the peripherals of HP
• 47:10
  disk drives and printers and all that into make a coherent system.
• 47:15
  So that's phase one.
• 47:16
  Phase two is what emulators are you gonna tackle?
• 47:20
  And phase three is what ancillary tools are you gonna put around the emulators
• 47:26
  so that this becomes a essentially a design to customer support environment.
• 47:32
  And so, you know what you do when you build a portfolio plan like that is,
• 47:38
  is you give different people who have different ideas, some of which are pretty
• 47:43
  fledgling, aren't very well thought out.
• 47:47
  You give them a place in the in the pantheon of what you're doing they
• 47:54
  can feel they're part of, even though they're not part of today quite
• 47:58
  in, in terms of the product itself.
• 48:01
  I just thought it probably needed a bit more description for our audience.
• 48:04
  'cause it's not as, succinct as have a vision.
• 48:08
  But again, it's this, it's a similar thing where you said you'll be surprised
• 48:12
  how many people are on, not on the same page as you of what our vision.
• 48:16
  Some people don't think we have a vision at all.
• 48:18
  But it's the same with your strategic portfolio.
• 48:21
  And by helping them understand you're all on the same page, just aligns all that
• 48:26
  energy in the same place, which is nice.
• 48:28
  Lead up for the next one, which is to select strategic program and
• 48:33
  project leadership very carefully.
• 48:34
  This is number four.
• 48:36
  the leadership you're gonna if, it's a big program, if it's a strategic cycle
• 48:40
  kind of program, the leaders you wanna pick not just intrapreneurs themselves.
• 48:46
  They have to have some leadership skills of the type that they can empower
• 48:51
  other intrapreneurs underneath them.
• 48:54
  So it's kind of a three-phase thing.
• 48:56
  I'm gonna manage, intrapreneurs , but I'm also gonna manage some people that I'm
• 49:00
  training to be leaders of intrapreneurs . And the problem you have with a lot of
• 49:05
  intrapreneurs being managed by people who aren't good at it, is they turn 'em off.
• 49:12
  Well, you can imagine for a sizable program if, you pick leaders that in
• 49:17
  the, you know, between you and the, intrapreneurs who turn them off you,
• 49:22
  you've basically just shot yourself.
• 49:24
  And so the question is, can you find leadership who,
• 49:29
  understand both of these charts?
• 49:31
  Can you, develop one?
• 49:34
  you pick, people from the intrapreneurship charts
• 49:38
  can learn the skills of the intrapreneurs leadership parts?
• 49:44
  And, so that's what I mean by select your leadership carefully.
• 49:48
  And it's tough because, well, first of all, as I've mentioned
• 49:51
  before, no one teaches this.
• 49:54
  So it's, not a learned skill in the sense that you went to class, you know?
• 50:00
  And it has to do as much as anything with trying to ask engineers and,
• 50:05
  very creative engineers become, you know, subtle managers of people.
• 50:10
  You gotta be kidding.
• 50:11
  You know, they became engineers so they wouldn't have to deal with people.
• 50:15
  That's such a key thing as well, like, you know, we were talking about how.
• 50:19
  In the bowels of hp, for example, you'd have equivalent to today if
• 50:24
  they had headphones back then they'd have their headphones and there'd
• 50:27
  be no communication going on.
• 50:30
  But it's actually the communication that is absolutely key.
• 50:33
  But on this, I just wanted to point out a couple of things here.
• 50:36
  You said two typical mistakes occur with this rule.
• 50:40
  First, too many executives, too many executive teams fail to
• 50:44
  distinguish project leadership from program leadership skills.
• 50:49
  And secondly, almost all project managers, and for that matter, most program
• 50:54
  managers will naturally manage tightly to prescribe schedules and cost goals.
• 51:00
  And it almost goes without saying that the rest of the executive
• 51:04
  team and the CEO will have this short-term incremental approach.
• 51:08
  Those things they're, not throwaway points.
• 51:11
  They, those things can actually be the life or death of a project.
• 51:15
  Absolutely.
• 51:16
  Absolutely.
• 51:17
  And at one level it almost sounds like I'm saying you don't need to
• 51:20
  worry about those kinds of things.
• 51:22
  You need to worry about more of the free spirit into the Mave things,
• 51:26
  but at the same time you, the rubber hits the road when the product ships.
• 51:33
  So I don't wanna be, disdainful of that.
• 51:36
  We had a, for Pisces, we had a we were on a tight schedule and we had, this
• 51:42
  insane set of competitors out there.
• 51:45
  And our leader got in a serious automobile accident.
• 51:49
  Actually, he was on a motorcycle and hit a, truck hit him.
• 51:53
  And he was fortunate to live.
• 51:56
  He, did not survive it in the sense that his brain was intact.
• 52:01
  So we, basically lost a good share of his leadership.
• 52:06
  Forever.
• 52:07
  But he did live and fathered kids and, had a successful life later, fortunately.
• 52:13
  the point was, were hosting a meeting that day of people from all around the world
• 52:20
  for that were gonna be the sales force.
• 52:23
  we had a projected date to ship.
• 52:25
  That happened to be we, know the date September 11th, was the Trade Center Day.
• 52:32
  So we didn't know it was gonna be, but it gave us we were the first people
• 52:36
  to say September 11th is a big deal.
• 52:38
  The, second in command on the project stood in front of these people
• 52:42
  knowing that his boss was critically injured and may not survive, and
• 52:46
  said, we're gonna meet that date.
• 52:49
  And everybody's you gotta be kidding.
• 52:52
  And we met that date.
• 52:53
  We had to prune some, functionality to do it but, we met the date, we got the
• 52:59
  product out, and we started selling the day We had told 'em a year before.
• 53:04
  And, so there's one where the date and, mattered so I, don't wanna
• 53:10
  be just disdainful of targets and schedules and things like that.
• 53:15
  Well, you definitely aren't, man.
• 53:16
  I think that's key as well, and you, we'll talk about that in the
• 53:19
  next episode when we talk about how to actually measure a project
• 53:23
  and return maps, et cetera as well.
• 53:25
  But the next one is fund your intrapreneurs fully.
• 53:28
  And we alluded to this one earlier on, I'll tee you up here.
• 53:32
  You say entrepreneurs need little funding.
• 53:34
  In the traditional sense tooling charges major capital
• 53:38
  investments, sizable marketing investments, and sales promotions.
• 53:41
  Costs are not the issue here, as indeed they are usually are for corporates.
• 53:47
  A corporation's main products.
• 53:49
  The issue is that the intrapreneur needs different spending formats, travel
• 53:54
  money, investigative money consulting, help, going to events, going to.
• 53:59
  Trade shows and they, there's no line item.
• 54:03
  There's no way to even sometimes recoup for those expenses.
• 54:06
  I know a lot of intrapreneurs who'll actually pay for stuff outta their
• 54:09
  own pocket 'cause there's no way to do so through the organization.
• 54:13
  But they'll still do it because they know what's right for the
• 54:15
  organization, which is so wrong.
• 54:17
  But this is a key point.
• 54:19
  You know, you see that in, in public education.
• 54:21
  Teachers buy the pencils for their kids, you know, the pencils and paper
• 54:26
  and the, I mean, it's just, it's stunning what society does and doesn't
• 54:32
  support sometimes or corporations.
• 54:35
  But yeah, so fun.
• 54:37
  The example I have in the book that brought me up short was I had a
• 54:42
  team of fact the, manager of that little gal I described that wanted
• 54:46
  conformal mapping, he said, I'd like.
• 54:49
  Three.
• 54:50
  And this was had been a guy working on avatar one.
• 54:54
  You may have seen Avatar two.
• 54:56
  avatar one was Jim Cameron as the lead guy.
• 55:00
  This was his number two guy was on our, was our faculty lead
• 55:04
  for, building these movies.
• 55:06
  man.
• 55:06
  And and he said I need 20,000 bucks to go to graph with three of my best students.
• 55:13
  I wanna inspire them with the best people in computer science in the
• 55:17
  world doing computer graphics.
• 55:20
  Okay.
• 55:21
  And what's it worth to inspire somebody?
• 55:24
  Right.
• 55:25
  And we didn't have 20 grand.
• 55:26
  And so I took it to the staff.
• 55:28
  I was chancellor, and I took it to the faculty stance.
• 55:32
  And they said, oh, there's no way, know and an idiot.
• 55:38
  I go back to him and I say, there's no way.
• 55:41
  My, my personnel manager is following me out of the room and she says hey, Chuck.
• 55:47
  She says, aren't you writing a book, the book we're talking about?
• 55:50
  Aren't you writing a book about how to fund entrepreneurs?
• 55:54
  Yeah, I am.
• 55:55
  She says, you just blew it, buddy.
• 55:58
  I I, was only writing about that earlier on Chuck.
• 56:01
  I actually, 'cause I read about that.
• 56:03
  Because you mentioned that in the last episode, but I actually read about it
• 56:05
  since then and I thought about that.
• 56:09
  Plus your Kuhn, your experience with Thomas Kuhn, the paradigm shift guy who
• 56:15
  couldn't take a paradigm shift when you challenged him about a paradigm shift.
• 56:19
  But I told you the last episode as well, that also this guy
• 56:22
  Howard Gardner, who created this concept of multiple intelligences.
• 56:26
  He met Stanley Milgram who talked about speaking truth to power.
• 56:30
  And he was in Harvard, and he questioned Milgram and Milgram lost it with him.
• 56:35
  Oh yeah,
• 56:35
  And I was, remember we were saying, you, you gave me the saying, It's, hard to see
• 56:40
  the picture when you're inside the frame,
• 56:42
  I had, that with Tom Kuhn, you know, the paradigm guy.
• 56:46
  And, he missed one.
• 56:47
  Well, so the sequel here was we did fund, the three people.
• 56:53
  I went on the trip myself.
• 56:56
  I said I wanna see it.
• 56:58
  Here's the sequel.
• 56:59
  To the sequel.
• 57:00
  Coming out of that, I was inspired to, to start a new company, which is
• 57:05
  what we're running now doing multiple displays because of that SIGGRAPH visit.
• 57:12
  Huh.
• 57:13
  I Who would've thought talk about, eat the dog food, buddy.
• 57:17
  But you actually point out there and you do say this, that is why you wrote
• 57:21
  this book, because companies do it.
• 57:24
  We all do it.
• 57:26
  There's a book there I have called, mistakes Are Made, but Not By Me.
• 57:30
  It's a great, it's a great book.
• 57:31
  I'm trying to see it 'cause the cover is fantastic.
• 57:33
  The cover is upside down on purpose
• 57:36
  Okay.
• 57:38
  and the whole idea is that you, you can, there's a thing called the fundamental
• 57:42
  attribution bias where say for example, you're driving home and some guy cuts you
• 57:48
  off on the motorway to take the off ramp and you're like, be beep jackass, right?
• 57:54
  But then you're rushing home because you need to bring the dogs for a walk or
• 57:57
  bring them to the vet. And you'll go, oh Yeah, but I have to bring the dogs to.
• 58:01
  a vet.
• 58:02
  Yeah, you got it.
• 58:04
  And the exact same thing.
• 58:06
  This is it.
• 58:06
  You cannot be objective with yourself.
• 58:08
  It's so, so difficult.
• 58:10
  So you cannot read the label when you're inside the jar.
• 58:13
  You can't see the picture when you're inside the frame.
• 58:15
  And you know, it's one of the reasons I'm so grateful to you for
• 58:19
  taking time to write the book, but also to do a deep dive on the book.
• 58:23
  But we we didn't do empower.
• 58:24
  Funding is a subset of Empower.
• 58:27
  Okay?
• 58:28
  To fund the guy for the SIGGRAPH thing.
• 58:31
  I ha I just write him a check.
• 58:34
  Okay.
• 58:34
  So I'm funding him and a lot of what entrepreneurs look for is funding, what
• 58:40
  you really look for is empowering, meaning that you can choose your own agenda.
• 58:46
  You can choose whether to go to graph or trip visits to customers.
• 58:52
  You can choose whether to spend your money on a hiring, a consultant
• 58:58
  that isn't ordinarily done at hp.
• 59:01
  After, I got in that corporate engineering job, I had a meeting somewhere and
• 59:05
  we met Doug Engelbart, the creator of the mouse, and actually some of the
• 59:11
  first work that led to Xerox Park.
• 59:14
  And and I said, Hey, I met you've.
• 59:18
  17 years ago, you used my display for something and he kind of remembered,
• 59:23
  then I said what, And he was working for, I don't know, McDonald Douglas
• 59:27
  or somebody in a dumb shit role.
• 59:30
  And I said his company had been bought, you know, and that kind of thing.
• 59:35
  said, what would it take to hire you as a consultant for
• 59:38
  this project I'm doing at hp?
• 59:41
  he said, well, you know and Hadaway.
• 59:43
  And all of a sudden I have like one of the more famous guys in Silicon
• 59:48
  Valley working on how to build the HP communication system and blew everybody.
• 59:54
  How do you get that?
• 59:55
  Well, I was empowered.
• 59:57
  And that's what they said.
• 59:58
  How, did you get the power to hire him?
• 1:00:01
  And I said, I didn't know that was a question worth asking.
• 1:00:04
  I mean, I just took it for granted.
• 1:00:06
  I had that power.
• 1:00:07
  But most people don't take it for granted.
• 1:00:10
  And so empowering is, a much broader thing than funding.
• 1:00:14
  And I, just wanted to make that point.
• 1:00:17
  Thank you.
• 1:00:18
  And that's, number six.
• 1:00:20
  Let's bring it home.
• 1:00:21
  Let's bring it home.
• 1:00:22
  Number seven, redefine your program reviews.
• 1:00:26
  So up until then I had pretty much run all the reviews and we
• 1:00:31
  ran 'em for local management.
• 1:00:33
  But with Pisces now our, constituents are Palo Alto and they're not local, and our
• 1:00:41
  constituents are the computer sales force as opposed to the instrument sales force.
• 1:00:46
  And so the question is you ought to provide reviews for them so they can
• 1:00:51
  know what you're doing, and so that they can essentially help audit and
• 1:00:55
  help guide what you're doing, right?
• 1:00:57
  That's the purpose of a review.
• 1:00:58
  Well, they would come in and they would questions from their frame
• 1:01:03
  of reference, but the frame of reference would derail our program.
• 1:01:08
  I mean, know what they were supposed to ask, is the right way to say it.
• 1:01:13
  And so I had to write a set of rules for what does it mean to do
• 1:01:19
  a program review versus a project review versus a strategic review.
• 1:01:25
  And what questions are allowed and what questions are not allowed, each of those.
• 1:01:32
  And if somebody asks a question that's gonna derail the meeting,
• 1:01:36
  you can say excuse me, that's a project review question.
• 1:01:40
  We're gonna deal with that, in September, or something like that.
• 1:01:44
  It, took a lot of coaching for people that had never been
• 1:01:47
  told what to do in a review.
• 1:01:49
  Who loved the power of being a reviewer.
• 1:01:52
  And, that, that was one of the things I discovered also was the ego that goes
• 1:01:57
  with becoming an auditor or a reviewer.
• 1:02:00
  It's a very powerful position and we don't have any rules for how to do it.
• 1:02:05
  And you go, bullshit, man.
• 1:02:07
  You come into my territory and wreck my program because you have a different view.
• 1:02:12
  So we had to structure that in a way that they could be
• 1:02:17
  helpful as opposed to hurtful.
• 1:02:19
  And they weren't trying to be malicious.
• 1:02:21
  It was just, they just didn't know.
• 1:02:22
  So that's why I spent time on that.
• 1:02:25
  And there's, as you say, like they, they cannot be measured the same.
• 1:02:29
  You say here, traditional program reviews are built for sustaining
• 1:02:32
  businesses, incremental stuff, the iPhone 17, so they emphasize schedules,
• 1:02:37
  forecasts, and delivery against plan.
• 1:02:40
  The logic breaks down for entrepreneurial work for example,
• 1:02:43
  like you said about Apple.
• 1:02:45
  Speculative programs require different review discipline.
• 1:02:48
  One that recognizes uncertainty rather than punishing it.
• 1:02:52
  I thought about this, Chuck.
• 1:02:53
  This one really got me thinking because I was thinking about how.
• 1:02:56
  I dunno if you know this, but when Apple did the, Apple one and the Apple two,
• 1:03:02
  the Apple one didn't sell that many.
• 1:03:04
  I think it was somebody, it was a small number, like 500 or something like that.
• 1:03:08
  And they were delighted.
• 1:03:10
  This is when it was the old wooden case, et cetera, Wozniak and jobs delighted
• 1:03:13
  with this got huge rewards for this.
• 1:03:17
  But because they had no schedule to meet or they didn't know what, how many they'd
• 1:03:23
  sell, et cetera, they were delighted.
• 1:03:25
  But then later on when Apple IPO'ed after the, second Mac, after the second apple.
• 1:03:31
  They, then were under totally different observation and the whole company changed.
• 1:03:36
  And with the Newton.
• 1:03:38
  Yeah.
• 1:03:38
  When they created the Newton, they sold loads of the Newton, but they
• 1:03:42
  didn't sell what they expected to sell.
• 1:03:44
  So it was seen as this massive failure in the company.
• 1:03:47
  And you go, how is that possible when it's a brand new product?
• 1:03:51
  And this is a thing, it's the context, isn't it?
• 1:03:54
  That kills so many ideas.
• 1:03:55
  Well, so I, I gave the example in one of our talks about the
• 1:03:59
  16.6 million goal, hit 12.
• 1:04:03
  And, it was a massive failure.
• 1:04:05
  I did a study of Apple with the iPod.
• 1:04:09
  the iPod was was basically a gamble by jobs.
• 1:04:15
  He was really having trouble reviving Apple when he came back.
• 1:04:18
  He went seven years before he made profit coming back, Isaacson left
• 1:04:23
  that completely out of the biography.
• 1:04:26
  But but the point was he, had this passion for music and so he built the
• 1:04:32
  iPod and he, his forecasts were, I've forgotten what they were but, they were,
• 1:04:37
  up and to the right and it was gonna go to like a million a year kind of thing.
• 1:04:41
  Well, the first three months were on Target, and then it leveled off.
• 1:04:46
  But he has the second version in development and people within the
• 1:04:50
  company were urging him, , drop that the thing didn't work.
• 1:04:54
  He said no, I, it'll work.
• 1:04:56
  The second one came out and he made forecasts of like
• 1:04:59
  4 million for this thing.
• 1:05:00
  It goes up to about 1,000,005 and flattened.
• 1:05:03
  And, and now what are you gonna do next?
• 1:05:06
  he said, what I'm gonna do next is the nano.
• 1:05:09
  And they why are you, beating this drum?
• 1:05:12
  You know?
• 1:05:13
  Well, the sales promptly went to 40 million or whatever the hell
• 1:05:16
  it was, you know, I mean, it just he got it right the third time and
• 1:05:22
  the laser jet printer was that way.
• 1:05:24
  You know, it was the fourth product by the same project leader over a decade.
• 1:05:29
  The other three had all failed miserably, and they still gave him money to do
• 1:05:33
  the fourth one, you, and he said, and I, could just see the meeting.
• 1:05:37
  I've got it this time.
• 1:05:38
  Trust me, I've got it this time.
• 1:05:40
  And they trusted him, you know?
• 1:05:42
  Probably had no choice.
• 1:05:43
  There's so much in the Apple story that we just don't know what was going on.
• 1:05:47
  I mean, 'cause the, history's written by the victors.
• 1:05:51
  He, I'm sure Isaac was like, Oh, no, don't put that in.
• 1:05:55
  Put that in, put,
• 1:05:56
  Well, yeah Steve actually did a fair amount of, the editing on,
• 1:06:00
  Isaacson's book and, Steve had no, no room for talking about troubles
• 1:06:06
  that he'd had along the way.
• 1:06:08
  absolutely.
• 1:06:09
  Well, Chuck.
• 1:06:09
  close to writing an Apple book at one point, but I, thought, you know,
• 1:06:14
  I'll leave that to other people.
• 1:06:16
  We're doing a series up next after this series with you on Nokia and
• 1:06:22
  I, got like massive inside track on Nokia, the papers beyond into Nokia.
• 1:06:28
  The original spec document that was done by a team inside Nokia
• 1:06:32
  a year before the iPhone came out and how accurate they were.
• 1:06:36
  I have a copy, I'll happily send it to you.
• 1:06:38
  They, were so accurate about the iPhone coming out and even despite
• 1:06:42
  all this, there were so many problems inside Nokia with just communication
• 1:06:48
  and thinking people had it.
• 1:06:50
  People afraid to speak up and go, no, we're not making progress
• 1:06:54
  against these deadlines at all.
• 1:06:55
  That the whole thing comes tumbling down.
• 1:06:57
  I'd say you'd really like it.
• 1:06:58
  I'm happy to send you on the papers if you like.
• 1:07:01
  Are what?
• 1:07:01
  What's the nature of the papers?
• 1:07:02
  Are they proprietary?
• 1:07:05
  No there were two.
• 1:07:06
  There's A guy called and Turi, and they wrote these papers.
• 1:07:11
  They actually did interviews with middle managers across middle managers and
• 1:07:16
  top managers across Nokia Afterwards.
• 1:07:19
  And in a s?
• 1:07:22
  Yeah, like a postmortem.
• 1:07:23
  And actually, you'd love, you love what they called.
• 1:07:26
  One of the papers they wrote, they said it was called Who Killed Nokia?
• 1:07:30
  Nokia did.
• 1:07:31
  Oh, well I said that I, you know, I was part of this Motorola thing, so I
• 1:07:37
  did, I had a chapter in this book that you're touting or that were, you know,
• 1:07:43
  going into I had three more chapters in it when I first published it, and they
• 1:07:49
  covered among other things, apple and the Motorola music experience of other things.
• 1:07:57
  And, when I had the book reviewed by a bunch of my colleagues,
• 1:08:02
  they said, this is two books.
• 1:08:04
  You ought to separate that second piece out.
• 1:08:07
  And I've never published that second piece.
• 1:08:09
  And what I'm just the juices that you've gotten flowing for me, again
• 1:08:16
  that could be pretty interesting.
• 1:08:18
  And if I had the apple, so the, there's three pieces, the
• 1:08:22
  Apple iPod the Apple iPhone.
• 1:08:26
  There's the and you mentioned the the pre, or you didn't mention the,
• 1:08:32
  pre, but you mentioned the oh shit.
• 1:08:35
  Help me.
• 1:08:36
  No, Well, you mentioned the Newton, but before that you had said the uh, the, no,
• 1:08:43
  Oh, the.
• 1:08:44
  the Palm Pilot.
• 1:08:45
  So team built the Palm Pilot os.
• 1:08:50
  Among other things, I, got on national television because of it, and I walked
• 1:08:55
  in to the studio up in San Francisco and the, uh, co-founder of of you
• 1:09:03
  know, the other team was there and she said, what are you doing here?
• 1:09:07
  And I said, I built your operating system.
• 1:09:09
  You did.
• 1:09:11
  But the point is and then, the Apple phone team over and did the p the
• 1:09:18
  pre, I don't know if you know that.
• 1:09:21
  Didn't know that
• 1:09:22
  the point is you could meld all of those stories together around, you
• 1:09:26
  know, what were the precursors to the iPhone, how did it work, how did these
• 1:09:31
  competitors see it, and how did even later competitors try And you know, I mean,
• 1:09:37
  it'd be a delicious little monograph.
• 1:09:40
  I really would And did one of the things I kind of understood from the, Newton was.
• 1:09:47
  The Newton was essentially the, raw material that became I, always
• 1:09:52
  think about it like compost.
• 1:09:53
  It was The, compost that became the iPhone or the iPad, perhaps.
• 1:09:57
  The way I see the the Newton actually was the precursor to the to the palm pilot
• 1:10:04
  Oh, right, okay.
• 1:10:06
  The Newton, the apple, Newton.
• 1:10:07
  is from it to the Palm pilot.
• 1:10:10
  And the, thing they solved was how to do the characters.
• 1:10:13
  Oh, okay.
• 1:10:14
  The problem that Newton had was you, had to write in a prescribed way and it,
• 1:10:20
  nobody could learn the alphabet basically.
• 1:10:22
  You know, because it was, almost symbolic.
• 1:10:24
  You know, but they were on the right track, know, and there were several
• 1:10:29
  iterations in, the meantime, but the Palm pilot, particularly with the automatic
• 1:10:35
  feed, you know, which destroyed your phone bill but you know, the automatic
• 1:10:41
  update stuff that then was the first of the, well, and actually the predecessor
• 1:10:47
  to both of those was the hp handhelds,
• 1:10:50
  Wow.
• 1:10:50
  Wow.
• 1:10:52
  And the reason we got the bid to do the OS for the Palm Pilot was because
• 1:10:57
  we had done the tools for the HP 35.
• 1:11:01
  Cool man.
• 1:11:01
  Cool.
• 1:11:02
  And So Are you gonna write a book?
• 1:11:03
  send me the stuff and I'll, see
• 1:11:05
  Yeah.
• 1:11:06
  Yeah.
• 1:11:06
  Hap happily.
• 1:11:07
  And I've recorded with the guys so.
• 1:11:10
  I have loads of papers.
• 1:11:11
  I have the, and actually the guy who wrote the strategy paper about the iPhone he's
• 1:11:18
  gonna come on the show and talk about that as well, but talk about the experience.
• 1:11:22
  ' cause what I want to ask him was what actually happened behind closed
• 1:11:25
  doors of you trying to tell the company we're in serious trouble here.
• 1:11:30
  And what, actually happened?
• 1:11:31
  The other in that thread was the blackberry,
• 1:11:34
  Yeah.
• 1:11:34
  Yeah.
• 1:11:35
  so
• 1:11:35
  We have the lady there's a lady who wrote the book.
• 1:11:40
  Have you seen this series on Netflix or, it might be a
• 1:11:44
  actually on Apple, but Jackie.
• 1:11:48
  Oh what's Jackie's name?
• 1:11:50
  I'll tell you now.
• 1:11:50
  Jackie Mac.
• 1:11:51
  It's like an Irish name.
• 1:11:53
  Jackie Mac, Jackie McNish.
• 1:11:56
  So she wrote the book about about Blackberry, and we're gonna
• 1:12:00
  cover that as well next year.
• 1:12:02
  So I'm gonna, I want to cover the stories where, you know, they're just these myths
• 1:12:07
  that are thrown away, but nobody goes into actually what happened behind the scenes.
• 1:12:11
  And that's where I was telling I was telling Steve Sasson about
• 1:12:15
  you, and he's, he'd love to come on and do an episode with you.
• 1:12:18
  Steve Sasson's, a guy who created the Kodak camera inside Kodak when
• 1:12:21
  he was a 23-year-old engineer.
• 1:12:25
  And he kept going around going, this is gonna kill us.
• 1:12:26
  This is gonna kill us.
• 1:12:27
  And everybody's just shutting him down the whole time.
• 1:12:29
  I thought you guys would be able to share some war stories.
• 1:12:33
  Well, one of the things that I know I've noticed a lot there's
• 1:12:37
  a fair number of books about given product or a given company.
• 1:12:43
  There are very few books that are weaved the story of multiple companies
• 1:12:47
  competing in other words it is easier to capture all of the Apple story from
• 1:12:53
  iPod to you know, to iPhone than it is to capture versus Motorola versus you know
• 1:13:03
  Blackberry versus Finland and so forth.
• 1:13:06
  Right?
• 1:13:07
  But, what you're in a place to do is capture that.
• 1:13:10
  And, it's that interplay.
• 1:13:11
  You know, to me the interplay between tech and Intel and hp around these
• 1:13:16
  logic things is a much more compelling story than what happened with Logic.
• 1:13:22
  Exactly.
• 1:13:23
  You know?
• 1:13:23
  I mean that's a, that is a a high school yearbook story.
• 1:13:29
  Yeah.
• 1:13:29
  Yeah.
• 1:13:29
  I mean, just narrating it isn't interesting.
• 1:13:33
  It's, actually the emotional journey,
• 1:13:36
  Yeah.
• 1:13:36
  stuff you shared in this book.
• 1:13:37
  It's like how difficult it is to change the paradigm
• 1:13:41
  Yeah.
• 1:13:41
  and how just flawed we are as humans to let, it just drift and like, that's just
• 1:13:48
  one of the foibles of being a human.
• 1:13:49
  yeah.
• 1:13:50
  Well,
• 1:13:50
  Yeah.
• 1:13:51
  write a book, you know, again I mean I, I'll probably write three or four
• 1:13:55
  more books if I get God willing.
• 1:13:58
  But whether that'll meet, make the list, it's hard to say, you know, but I'd
• 1:14:03
  That's it.
• 1:14:03
  Well, we'll fuel it for you, brother.
• 1:14:05
  We'll fuel it for you.
• 1:14:06
  Okay.
• 1:14:07
  listen it's been a pleasure.
• 1:14:08
  We're gonna do part four.
• 1:14:10
  Chuck and I are gonna record part four before Christmas as well.
• 1:14:12
  So these two episodes will go out before Christmas, but for now, author, oh.
• 1:14:17
  Permission denied and the intrapreneurial rule book, the
• 1:14:22
  Seven Rules and the Intrapreneur's Manager's rule book, Chuck House.
• 1:14:26
  Thank You for joining us.
• 1:14:28
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• 1:14:28
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• 1:14:29
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