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Re-Release: Alan Jones - part 1 · Rusty's Garage

0:02
Listener.
0:04
This episode is a little something special from our archive.
0:08
Alan Jones, our 1980 Formula One world champion, is about to clock up a special birthday.
0:13
So we're re-releasing his two-part garage episode to celebrate the milestone.
0:18
AJ will be 80 on November 2nd.
0:21
We originally spoke with him back in 2022
0:24
In the lead up to the Australian Grand Prix at Albert Park that year, I travelled to Queensland to see him and this was a joy to do.
0:32
For a time, we shared the desk and set at Channel 10 for the network's GP coverage and many of you will fondly remember him alongside the late great Darrell Eastlake at nine before that.
0:43
Alan's always been a straight shooter, and I greatly admire that no-nonsense approach.
0:48
You are never in any doubt about his view on something, and he earned the right to those opinions.
0:54
So let's just keep in mind as you listen here that if our world has changed a bit and become a bit more PC, well...
1:00
That isn't how AJ lives his life.
1:03
Keep that era perspective around the stories, please.
1:06
There are some great reflections here on his dad, Stan, and his racing career.
1:12
Doing it tough in England, trying to get a break.
1:15
Winning the world title with Williams.
1:17
And, of course, supercars a little later in part two.
1:20
Happy birthday, AJ.
1:21
I owe you a lunch and much more, mate.
1:24
However the planets align to work together for a time and to capture your story here,
1:29
I am forever grateful.
1:30
Enjoy the walk down memory lane.
1:35
Well, with all due respect, Greg, I mean, I've been saying this for 10 years.
1:39
I mean, the car needs to be less aerodynamically dependent and more reliable on mechanical grip.
1:46
And that's exactly what they've endeavoured to do.
1:47
And it makes you be able to follow the car in front a lot closer.
1:51
And who knows, they might even get back to an anonymously called overtaking.
1:55
LAUGHTER
1:57
The question that we've had from one listener, Jack Byrne, he wondered, would you have been, you know, if you could change eras and do it all again with these new cars, would you kind of commit to running new cars?
2:10
Do they appeal to you?
2:12
Would you make the same sacrifices to run what we're seeing in the current era?
2:16
Well, it's a very difficult question because, I mean, you change with age.
2:20
I mean, obviously when you're younger, you'd walk over broken glass to get into Formula One.
2:24
And then you'd likewise to get into a competitive car.
2:27
As you get older, you'd probably get a bit wiser.
2:29
I don't really know.
2:30
But that still appeals to me.
2:32
I mean, I really wish that I was young enough and fit enough to be able to hop in one and have a go.
2:38
You've been at the Saudi Arabia race in the last sort of six months or so.
2:42
You're going to the Albert Park Grand Prix in Australia, which is terrific.
2:45
How have you been and are you looking forward to your home race?
2:49
Well, I've been pretty good.
2:51
You know, I mean, I've had a couple of medical issues, not death-defying or anything, but I guess when you get to be my age, you're always going to have a few things like an old car, you know.
3:02
But...
3:04
Sorry, mate.
3:06
But, yeah, no, I mean, as far as the Melbourne Grand Prix is concerned, I'm looking forward to seeing these new cars because obviously the last one I went to was the Saudi Grand Prix, which is five, six months ago.
3:17
So I'm looking forward to seeing these new cars in the flesh.
3:21
As far as going to Albert Park's concerned, I'm not all that fussed about that, but I'm just looking forward to seeing the cars.
3:27
Do you watch Drive to Survive?
3:29
And what do you think of the modern-day Formula One personalities?
3:31
Because you're always a straight shooter, and I love the style that you brought during your era, but it's different now.
3:38
It's a big show, mate, in that regard, isn't it?
3:40
Well, you've hit the nail on the head.
3:41
It's a show.
3:42
It's a big show.
3:42
I have not seen one episode of it because I...
3:48
I mean, I'll watch Formula One, I'll watch MotoGP, which is my preference now.
3:51
I'll watch it all night, all day, every day.
3:54
But I just don't like the theatrics of it all now.
3:56
I mean, pretty soon they'll all be turning up with their own make-up artists.
3:59
I'm sure Lewis does that anyway, but certainly with his jewellery advisor.
4:04
But, yeah, I mean, I like the aspect of the cars, but I just don't like a lot of the peripheral crap that goes on with Formula One at the moment.
4:13
I used the word sacrifice there before.
4:15
You made a lot of that when you were younger.
4:18
People would be quite intrigued.
4:19
I think you literally went to England with like 50 quid in your back pocket.
4:22
Is that right?
4:23
I did.
4:23
And it wasn't by choosing, obviously.
4:25
My old man very inconveniently went broke on me.
4:30
So I took off over there on the basis.
4:32
And I must admit I did that because he said he would send me money.
4:36
periodically for me to survive, which he forgot to do on several occasions.
4:40
But no, I mean, it taught me a great lesson in life.
4:42
You know, I got together with an old friend of mine, a boyhood friend, Brian Maguire.
4:48
We bought and sold minivans and caravans and so forth.
4:53
You did quite well out of that, I think, you guys, too.
4:55
For sort of in your late teens, it turned into a good little thing, didn't it?
4:59
Oh, massive.
4:59
Brian went on to become really big in it.
5:02
He owned a company called Windmill Caravans and made a lot of money.
5:07
He bought a Williams and raced it in the...
5:10
English Formula One.
5:11
Excuse my dog's barking in the background.
5:14
I'll just get out and kill them in a minute.
5:16
No, but we used to buy and sell them.
5:18
We used to buy them on the Thursday or Wednesday, run a hose over them, drive them down to Whirls Court, park them on the curb with a for sale sign on them, and by Saturday or Sunday, 95% of them were sold.
5:30
And we used to make good money.
5:31
I mean, at one point, Brian and I remember one weekend we made two grand each pounds.
5:37
And that was a long time ago.
5:38
A lot of money.
5:39
I mean, that would be the equivalent of making 20 grand or something.
5:42
Now, I'm not sure.
5:43
But because of that, I was able to sort of buy my first Formula Ford, Formula 3, and get into racing.
5:51
But mind you, for every pound I've earned, I probably spent two on motorsport.
5:55
But it was my passion.
5:57
Still is.
5:58
Your dad was a tough but fair man.
6:01
And did he really mould you in many ways?
6:03
Are you of the same mould as Stan?
6:06
I don't know.
6:07
All I know is that he used to abuse me if I did something wrong and not necessarily praise me if I did something right.
6:12
He was a very hard taskmaster.
6:15
He was a tough sort of an individual.
6:19
Very hard man.
6:20
You know, on a few occasions I'd be driving down the street in Richmond or somewhere and there'd be a blue outside a pub and the old man would deem the bloke that was winning to be too big so he'd stop the car and get into him.
6:30
Oh!
6:32
He was a shocker.
6:34
But, you know, he was a very, very kind man, very generous man.
6:40
You know, if he saw someone down on his luck, he'd stop and give him some money or whatever.
6:47
Very, very generous.
6:49
Bit of a funny bloke in a lot of ways.
6:52
You snuck his car out, I think, on occasions too, didn't you?
6:54
Did you take it to Calder and race it and things like that?
6:57
Oh, no, that was with his permission I did that.
7:00
But he bought a brand new Lancia Aurelia back from Europe when he did the Monte Carlo Rally with Tony Gaze and Lex Davison, and he had it parked up the driveway, and I rolled it all the way down the drive and down the street and...
7:15
nearly crashed it and i think i was only about 12 or something i'm 11 um but no he had um the old cooper climax at home and a couple of other cars and there was a race meeting on that at calder so he allowed me to i had no idea i didn't know what the tire pressure should be didn't have any goggles so i wore sunglasses you know which was an absolute stupid like if i got a
7:37
You know, I would have ended up by Helmut Marko if I got a stone.
7:40
Yeah, so in that respect.
7:43
And then he did actually finance a Morris 850, which we bought from a finance company, and it had the engine in the boot.
7:52
So we gave it to Brian Sampson, a guy in Melbourne who was very good at tuning.
7:57
and the old man just said, oh, look, turn it into a little race-winning car, and he had no idea what it was going to cost.
8:03
Completely shit himself when he got the bill, because I think he thought, well, Morris 850, and what can it cost?
8:09
Yeah.
8:10
But, and then that was my very first race car, and I raced it at the Geelong Sprints.
8:15
Amazing.
8:16
In the English chapter for you or the European chapter, I mean, no internet back then, no mobile phones, things like that.
8:22
You talked about the business that you had and how that helped get things going.
8:27
But how did you stitch some of the race deals together?
8:29
Were you good at the hustle and learning to talk to people about the commercial side of the game?
8:34
Well, you had to be.
8:35
You know, I mean, I keep saying to Christian, you've got to work the paddock, you know, and he says, what do you mean?
8:41
I said, well, what I mean is you've got to work the paddock, you idiot.
8:43
You know, like, I don't know how to.
8:45
But, you know, I always made a point of, you know, if I went to a race meeting, going and talking to people and making sure I introduced myself.
8:51
And there was a couple of occasions where I was, I raced a former Atlantic car at Silverstone.
8:58
And these guys, I had a phone call from someone at March that said, this guy bought a March, a second-hand one, he wants a driver.
9:06
And I'd been doing a lot of testing for March down at Goodwood and everything.
9:09
They said, go down and have a talk with him, see what he thinks.
9:13
So I got the address and I went down there and there was this Nestle truck parked outside this address.
9:19
And I thought, oh, maybe he's a distributor or something.
9:21
That was the transporter.
9:22
And at that stage, I didn't have much of a choice, but it was a march with a Ryan Falconer body on it.
9:30
And so I agreed to race it at Silverstone for an Atlantic race there.
9:35
And we were lucky enough to win the race.
9:38
which there's been a few things in my career which have been a little bit of a turning point, you know.
9:43
And so I gave them a list of things to do for the next race meeting, which was at Alton Park.
9:51
Anyway, I drove all the way up to Alton and there it was in the transport.
9:55
It hadn't been taken out from the time I finished the race at Silverstone.
9:59
And to the extent where some of the wishbones had a bit of rust on them and everything.
10:02
Well, I just said, you blokes are kidding, aren't you?
10:05
I said, look, I'll give 110%, but, you know, if you guys aren't going to prepare the car for me, just forget it.
10:11
The point I'm making is that I refused to drive the car, but then I made bloody sure that I went around the paddock and told everybody why I wasn't driving the car.
10:20
And that they weren't doing, they weren't giving their part and I was giving my part.
10:24
Right.
10:25
And that made people sit up and think, well, you know, he's obviously fair, didn't give him a bad, all of this.
10:29
And it was only about a week later that I had a phone call from Harry Stiller that said, we've got this march.
10:37
And I knew we had this bloody march.
10:38
It was a brand new state-of-the-art bloody thing.
10:41
And we're having a lot... Bev Bond, who was driving for him, is having a lot of trouble with her understeer.
10:48
Can you come up and... Because I've been doing a lot of testing for March, as I just said to you.
10:51
I said, yeah, sure.
10:52
So I rang up Robin Hurd and said, Robin, can you do me a favour and meet me at Silverstone?
10:58
And he knew Harry Stiller, obviously.
11:01
And give me a bit of a hand to tune this thing up or get it going.
11:04
He said, yeah, no worries.
11:05
And...
11:06
Robin was fantastic like that.
11:08
So we met and I jumped in it and it didn't have that much understair, but it had a bit.
11:12
So we just tuned that out of it.
11:14
And I ended up by going about a second under what the qualifying time was for the last race.
11:19
Bev Bond immediately became team manager and I became the driver.
11:26
We try and teach kids now about, you know, resilience, perseverance.
11:31
I mean, you talked about some of the little challenges along the way there and how you absolutely kept at it.
11:36
Did you ever get disenchanted and think, I can't keep doing this, I can't keep going, or you just kept at it?
11:44
Both.
11:45
I got disenchanted.
11:46
I got very down.
11:50
When you're an Australian living on the other side of the world, you haven't got mum to run home to.
11:54
They have the roast meal.
11:55
All you've got is a grubby little flat somewhere.
11:58
So you get pretty disenchanted quite easily.
12:01
But I think, I don't know whether it was ego, stupidity, ignorance, I don't really know, maybe a mixture of all, but I just was never going to give up.
12:10
And I kept, you know, I used to, even when I...
12:15
got a vegan tuned Formula 3 engine out of George Robinson, I used to ring up George every day without fail for half an hour, 45 minutes after dinner and have a chat with him.
12:25
Because George did me a huge favour.
12:27
He introduced me to GRD.
12:30
He told them that if they supplied me with the works car, chassis, he would supply me with the engine.
12:37
And that together gave me the works GRD drive.
12:41
which in turn was sort of responsible for me meeting Harry Stiller in a funny story.
12:46
So that's how things turn around.
12:47
But no, I was always very determined, never always very determined.
12:52
To top up the bank balance during some of that early phase, you would do sometimes two things.
12:56
You know, immediately what springs to mind is going off and doing Can-Am, for example, and there's a title win there.
13:02
People would love to know about those cars.
13:05
Did you enjoy driving them?
13:06
What was that like?
13:08
I love driving the Can-Am cars, and how that came around was that when I won the 77 Austrian Grand Prix for Shadow, Don Nicholls, who was the owner of Shadow, said, Alan, would you come over and drive the Can-Am car at Ontario, I think it was, or somewhere like that.
13:24
I think he might have had a bit of a blue with Jackie Oliver, hadn't paid him or something, and Jackie had obviously said, well, I'm not driving unless you're paying me, so Don Nicholls said I'll get stupid in.
13:34
So he said, I'll fly you over first class.
13:36
You know, I'd never flown first class.
13:37
And I remember hopping on the jumbo, and they had this great big bowl of champagne in the middle.
13:42
And I said, how long has all this been going on?
13:45
So I raced the car at Mossport and did reasonably well.
13:49
I think I qualified at second or third.
13:53
And then he said he had a newer model, single sort of single type one, for Riverside.
13:59
And I like Riverside.
14:02
And I said, yeah, sure.
14:03
So I went over and did Riverside, and it was because of that that I qualified on the front row of the grid and gave the Hass car a bit of a hassle, excuse the pun, that I got to know Carl Hass quite well, and he asked me if I'd like to drive for him in the 78 thing.
14:22
At that stage, it was 1977, and I was driving for Shadow, and there was all sorts of things going on.
14:27
I hadn't completely done a deal for Formula One.
14:29
I was talking to a few people, but nothing concrete.
14:31
So I thought, right, I'll agree to a deal with Carl, because at least that gives me a drive for 78.
14:38
And then, because if nothing comes in Formula One, I've got an income and I'm doing K&M.
14:45
So as it turned out, I did the deal with...
14:50
Frank Williams and he allowed me to do Can-Am which is a little bit unusual so yeah and I ended up winning the Can-Am championship and I loved racing, I like racing in America because when you've been living in England for the amount of time I was, the weather was pathetic and you'd go across to America the weather would be a lot better and you'd have hamburgers and things like that, sort of soggy old bloody things
15:13
And then I did reasonably well in Formula One in terms of, you know, we had that little 06 up where it shouldn't have been.
15:20
So really from that point on it was onwards and upwards.
15:33
Alan Jones is truly one of the greats.
15:36
There's no joke this time, just appreciating the legend and all he's done for Aussie Motorsport.
15:42
Thanks Alan.
15:45
You came through a great period of innovation in the sport as well in all sorts of ways.
15:50
I think you've reflected somewhere about Patrick Head maybe even working with balsa at one point and stuff like that.
15:57
Were there some innovations at the time where you were like, far out, I'm not sure about this, and they worked?
16:03
Or maybe even the other way that you thought were ridiculous?
16:07
No, not really.
16:08
I mean, I had an unbelievable faith in Patrick.
16:10
I mean, he was fantastic.
16:13
You talk about balsa, that was at Rickard.
16:15
We went down there testing, and Patrick wanted to try longer side on the wing at the back.
16:23
He wanted to put side...
16:24
Planes.
16:25
Planes, yeah, right, that went much further down towards the ground, and they were made of wood.
16:31
And I said, Patrick, what's going on here?
16:34
And then Patrick being typical Patrick, he said, oh, you know, bloody war planes were made of wood and this.
16:40
Anyway, by the time he'd finished, I thought they were the business.
16:43
Yeah, exactly.
16:44
So anyway, we tested all day and that was one of the – I always remember that day because we started at 8.30 in the morning and finished at 7 at night.
16:52
And I think I had half an hour out of the car for lunch.
16:55
We went back to the motel that night and I just collapsed and slept in my clothes.
16:59
It was a huge day.
17:01
Never done so many Ks in a car in my life without hopping out.
17:05
But, you know, we were just determined to get the most out of the car and try whatever was necessary to get the job done.
17:12
I'm glad you bring him up and I'd like to talk about Frank as well because, you know, sadly we lost him in November last year.
17:18
But Patrick was always very, and I think he quite liked that quality about him.
17:24
He was very, the driver's just like a part of a car.
17:27
They're replaceable.
17:28
You could be a bit like a light bulb, I think he used to say.
17:30
We could change light bulbs if we need to, wouldn't he?
17:32
Well, yeah, I mean, Patrick was very, very competitive.
17:34
So was Frank, but probably not quite so verbal.
17:37
You know, like I remember I went wide and my back left-hand wheel scraped the wall at Long Beach.
17:45
You'd think I'd written the thing off.
17:47
What the bloody hell are you doing?
17:49
I said, Patrick...
17:50
I'm trying, mate.
17:51
Like when you try, sometimes it drifts a little bit wide, you know.
17:54
Anyway, what used to happen then, if we had a mechanical failure, I'd go up to him and say, Patrick, what the bloody hell do you think you're doing?
18:00
And I got to the stage, we'd say, Patrick Allen won, Patrick nil.
18:05
And that sort of lightened it up a little bit.
18:08
So we had a great relationship, but we both knew that we were super, super competitive and didn't take losing lightly at all.
18:17
weren't very philosophical about it.
18:19
He did some wonderful things for the Williams family, notably winning their first world title, mate, in 1980.
18:26
Sadly, he left us in November last year.
18:29
Just a couple of recollections on Sir Frank Williams, if you can.
18:34
Oh, well, look, what do you say about Frank?
18:35
I mean, he was just a racer.
18:37
He was just a complete racer.
18:39
Like, how he continued on for the time that he did, I do not know.
18:44
An able-bodied man.
18:45
I mean, that's why Patrick...
18:48
gave it up that's one of the reasons i gave it up i just couldn't stand the crowds the aggravation um i mean you'd go to monaco there's all those steps and all these people around you and the politics and all the bullshit you had to go through and he was in a wheelchair i mean unbelievable but he was such a racer uh that he used to cut through all of that and uh you talk about uh i mean he used to go down to saudi arabia and
19:13
And when he was trying to get sponsorship for the car, they would tell him to come down, say, on the Wednesday and put him in the waiting room at one of their offices.
19:22
They wouldn't see him until the Friday.
19:24
And they'd have the audacity to walk past him knowing that he was there.
19:27
And he knew that they knew that they were there.
19:29
It was some silly test they were putting him through.
19:31
I don't really know.
19:33
But he wouldn't go.
19:35
He'd sit there until he saw them.
19:37
Yeah, exactly.
19:40
He spoke two or three languages fluently.
19:42
He spoke Italian, French, whatever it took to get the job done.
19:47
He was just an unbelievable man.
19:50
I mean, apart from the fact that he was in Formula One and what he did in Formula One we all know about is history now.
19:56
But as a man, he's just someone to be looked up to.
20:00
A great indicator of the competitive human being that you are is that when you ultimately scored your first race win for them, you were, I'm sure there's a level of pride there, but also a little bit miffed because it wasn't their first win.
20:15
You desperately wanted to give Williams its first win, didn't you?
20:17
Oh, absolutely.
20:19
I mean, in 1978 we were only a one-car team.
20:24
And that little car should have won a Grand Prix.
20:25
I should have won Long Beach in that car, but we had mechanical, electrical problems.
20:30
And, of course, I knew what we were going through.
20:32
I knew the sacrifices that Frank and Patrick made and the work we were putting in and what we were going through to get that elusive win.
20:41
I mean, we were super happy to get on the podium.
20:44
And also, of course, when you get points, it helps financially to...
20:48
further the development in the card, whether it be this one or the next one.
20:51
So I desperately wanted to give Frankie's first Grand Prix victory.
20:55
And just to rub salt into wounds, I mean...
20:58
I was leading the race by 20 seconds.
21:00
I had it in the bag.
21:01
I was doing it easy.
21:02
And that stupid bloody water thing cracked an inverter.
21:06
And, I mean, I'm glad that Clay won and I'm glad that Williams won, but I was pissed off.
21:12
And I did something which was probably a bit naughty.
21:14
I just jumped in the car and went back to London and I should have stayed around and helped them celebrate, but I just couldn't do it.
21:20
I had to get out.
21:22
Record book says 12.
21:23
You and I have had this conversation on the desk at Channel 10 many times.
21:26
Should have been 13.
21:29
Tell me a little bit about, with the benefit of time, have people come to you and say, I think it was the Spanish Grand Prix, wasn't it?
21:36
Was that the one that you should have?
21:39
Has someone said really, you should have been formally given that?
21:44
Oh, absolutely.
21:45
I mean, the people that know, I should have been.
21:48
I mean, I went there on the Thursday.
21:50
I did my practice on the Friday.
21:52
I did my qualifying on the Saturday.
21:54
Went there on the Sunday morning, did the warm-up, fronted up onto the grid, went off and did the race, did the full distance, won the race, was given the trophy by King Carlos or whatever his name was.
22:05
And so I did the full catastrophe.
22:07
I mean, I won the Spanish Grand Prix and blessed Jean...
22:12
I like to call him Jean Mary, but he's...
22:14
I think he's named Jean-Marie, but he was a bit of a lunatic.
22:17
And I think, if nothing else, I think the Senna documentary has vindicated me a little bit with that because he looks a complete tool in that.
22:27
The true colours of him came out.
22:29
But anyway, he stacked on a turn because his wife didn't have a chair or something.
22:33
I don't know, but he declared the race not in void, which really pissed me off.
22:39
because that would have been A, more points, and B, it would have been another Grand Prix on my CV.
22:45
But the very next meeting was the French Grand Prix, and the two Legiers were on the front row of the grid because they were all celebrating Saturday night and running around drinking champagne and carrying on.
22:58
You know, we just did a really good start and wore them down, wore them down, wore them down, wore them down, passed Lafitte, passed Peroni, and ended up by winning the race.
23:09
And when I pulled up, they gave me this huge Union Jack, which I went around on my slowdown lap, waving it in all their faces.
23:18
And then when I went back to the podium, I wouldn't go up on the podium while he was still there because he was a megalomaniac anyway.
23:23
So they asked him to please step down off the podium because it was TV, you know, for TV.
23:28
He was well pissed off at that.
23:30
So, you know, what goes around comes around.
23:33
Having said that, I'd still rather have the Spanish Grand Prix on my CV.
23:36
Most definitely.
23:37
Most definitely.
23:38
When you won that title in 1980, you were the first Aussie at the time since the late great Sir Jack Brabham to do it.
23:45
You're the last Australian to win the crown.
23:48
Give people a sense of the kind of reaction it had back here because now we're in this internet age where stories pop up immediately.
23:54
There's something on social media immediately.
23:56
Something like that happens.
23:57
A bit different then.
23:58
You've got to wait for magazines or newspapers and so on.
24:01
Did you get a phone call from Malcolm Fraser probably was the PM back then, was he?
24:06
Oh, I did.
24:07
I did.
24:07
Absolutely.
24:08
He gave me an MBE.
24:11
He was a real enthusiast.
24:12
I liked Don Malcolm.
24:13
Plus, also, he was a Simmental breeder.
24:15
So, I was breeding Simmental cattle as well.
24:17
But, no, I mean, I think I was just at the beginning where Aussies were starting to get it on TV.
24:24
And I have people coming up to me now and saying, oh, you were the reason I was up late and all that sort of business.
24:29
And in that respect, I was probably just a tad early.
24:32
But...
24:33
In one respect, in my own mind, I'm probably a bit glad because I don't know whether I could stand this bullshit at the moment.
24:38
Like all this social media, you know, Fred Friendly on his mother's armchair down in her basement, you know, on his laptop, but being as brave as buggery.
24:49
You know, I just don't know whether I could cop all that, to be honest.
24:51
Mm-hmm.
24:52
What about the car that year?
24:55
I mean, you were in Saudi Arabia not all that long ago for the race.
24:58
They had some cars doing demonstration laps, I think, with David Coulthard and maybe Damon Hill.
25:04
They sounded amazing.
25:07
What sort of memories does the car of that year evoke for you?
25:11
Well, my car sounded really good.
25:12
I mean, often people come up to me, and I think it was even Jonathan Palmer or somebody said to me not so long ago, your car always sounded good.
25:19
And I think it was because Patrick had the exhaust coming out from obviously the side of the engine, because that's where they come out of.
25:25
But he had them wrapped around to come under the wing, and I think that gave them a pretty distinctive sound.
25:31
And I think Patrick was one of the very first people to cotton on to the idea that the hot fumes from the exhaust underneath the wing probably helped it be a bit more efficient.
25:40
Yeah.
25:41
And I don't think anyone ever cottoned onto that.
25:43
They thought we just had the exhaust there to get it out of the way of the airflow from under the car.
25:47
But no, it always sounded good.
25:49
You got to meet Enzo Ferrari, and there were, I think, two opportunities with them that sadly did not come to pass, weren't there?
25:57
Well, yeah, I...
26:00
I was very fortunate to meet Enzo Ferrari.
26:02
I mean, I am a major enthusiast.
26:05
I am a major car perp.
26:07
So, you know, when you have the opportunity to meet someone like Enzo Ferrari, it's a thrill.
26:12
And I got a phone call from Montezemolo
26:18
after I'd won the 77 Austrian Grand Prix.
26:21
And he said, what have you got lined up for next year?
26:24
And I said, well, nothing at this stage.
26:27
And that's, of course, when I decided to do K&M.
26:30
That's why I thought, well, at least I'll tee up something.
26:33
And he said, oh, you know, he asked me a really silly question.
26:35
Would you like to drive for Ferrari?
26:37
Well, hello.
26:38
You know, like...
26:41
Name me one Grand Prix driver that would say no to that.
26:43
So anyway, I said, yes, of course, I'd love to.
26:45
He said, all right, well, we'd like you to come over to Italy and meet Mr Ferrari and have a talk.
26:53
And I said, what time would you like me to leave?
26:55
And he said, but we must keep it very secret because we don't want people to know about it because when we sign you up, we'd like it to be like a surprise or whatever.
27:08
He said, so if you fly into Milan, we'll have somebody from the factory pick you up and drive you down and you can meet Mr. Ferrari and we'll talk about it.
27:17
So, but, you know, keep it secret.
27:18
So I landed in Milan and...
27:21
got off the plane, got into the area, and there's this bloke in a pale blue pair of overalls, a huge Ferrari written all over him, with a big sign above his head, Ellinger.
27:29
Oh.
27:31
So I mean, like Harry the Goose would know, well, what's going on here?
27:34
So he whacked me in this prototype Ferrari, took me down to Modena, and there I got out and met Signor Lardi, Piero Lardi.
27:45
He was in a Fiat 500, and I thought, well, who's this shit kicker?
27:49
You know, and little did I know that he was Ferrari's son.
27:52
And so he took me around.
27:56
And I went to the villa where Ferrari used to have his office, which was right in the middle of Ferrano, the test track.
28:02
So I sat in the waiting room and big, very theatric, you know, big double doors opened up and I went in there and here he is behind the desk, as white as a sheet.
28:12
And I thought, geez, he's not a well man.
28:15
Anyway, he asked me all these questions and Montezemolo hit the nail on the head.
28:18
He said, he will ask you why do you want to drive for Ferrari, blah, blah.
28:22
And that's exactly what he did.
28:23
And Montezemolo said, this is what you'll say.
28:25
You'd workshop the answers.
28:27
Yeah, pretty much.
28:29
would you be prepared to live in Italy?
28:30
And I said, I'd live in the North Pole.
28:34
You know, what do you think you can do with Ferrari?
28:38
I was doing a bit of crawling.
28:40
With your car, sir, I think I could become world champion.
28:44
This is all the bullshit they want to hear.
28:46
So I ended up by actually signing a contract.
28:49
And he said, I'll level with you.
28:52
He didn't say at this stage I'd kicked out by this stage.
28:54
I saw him do it.
28:55
I was back with Lardy.
28:58
We are trying to get a North American driver for our sales.
29:01
We are talking to Mr Andretti.
29:04
If Mr Andretti doesn't sign with us, we'd like you to sign.
29:08
But I'd already signed, so we will activate your contract.
29:10
I said, okay, that's great.
29:12
So I used to go down to one of the train stations in London because, for whatever reason, Autosport used to come out early.
29:19
And I picked it up and Andretti re-signs or signs for Lotus.
29:23
And I went, oh, yeah, I'm a Ferrari driver.
29:26
It didn't air anything for a couple of weeks and I thought, this is very strange.
29:29
So I eventually phoned them up and they said, well, you know how we told you we wanted a North American driver?
29:34
I said, yeah.
29:36
Well, we have signed Mr Villeneuve.
29:37
Mm-hmm.
29:38
I went, oh, okay.
29:39
I didn't even know he was in the scale of things.
29:42
So that's what happened.
29:43
And they signed Villeneuve and I immediately got on the phone to Frank and said, I've been giving a lot of thought to this.
29:48
I'd love to drive for you.
29:50
At that stage, wanting to drive for Frank Williams versus Ferrari were two very different things.
29:56
So anyway, as it turned out, it was the best thing that ever happened to me because they gave me a great car.
30:01
And then every time, as I've said this a hundred times, every time I used to qualify the Ferraris, I'd drive down pit lane and give them a little bit of a wave.
30:09
And it might have only been with one finger, but it was a wave.
30:12
And, you know, so that was very enjoyable.
30:15
But I think that...
30:17
Yes, everyone would like to drive a Ferrari, but I'm really happy I ended up going with Frank because we grew together, we created a legacy, and it's something I'll never regret.
30:28
That was an amazing decision.
30:31
Didier Peroni, I think, was the other opportunity with them, I think, was it not, with Ferrari?
30:37
Was it...
30:38
I'm trying to remember the...
30:39
I don't know.
30:39
All I know was I didn't think there was any other people.
30:42
I naively just thought it was me because they foolishly said that to me.
30:46
No, I meant back when you were in Australia, when you'd stopped in that brief period after 81 in the sport, and they were trying to contact you on the farm, weren't they?
30:55
They were trying to ring you to see if you would join the famous red team then, I think, as well.
30:59
I was up here on the Gold Coast.
31:01
And it's amazing what goes around and comes around, isn't it?
31:05
at the end of the day, if we can't get Mr. Andretti, we would like you.
31:08
And then when Peroni had his shunt, they phoned me up and said, we would like you to come back and drive the car for the rest of the year.
31:15
Are you interested?
31:16
And I said, yes, which, of course, at that point I really wasn't, but I thought I'll fuck them around because...
31:21
You know, because I'm a Scorpio and I cut my nose off to spite my face and that's exactly what I did.
31:27
And in the end, guess who they got?
31:29
Mr. Andretti.
31:30
And then the bugger went and put it on pole at Monza and I thought, oh, no, Jones's Law is at work again, you know.
31:38
The thing for me, I'm not a massive believer in regret, right?
31:41
You made the best decision that you have at the time.
31:44
When you look back on it now, that period that you spent away from the sport before you came back in the early 80s there, would you change that?
31:51
Would you do that differently?
31:53
I mean, you went off on the farm and, you know, escaped it for a time.
31:57
How do you compartmentalise that now?
32:00
Well, you do what you do at the time you do it.
32:02
You know, I mean, and there's probably on reflection, yes, I probably did knock it on the head a bit early because I soon realised I wasn't a bloody farmer, that's for sure.
32:12
And so, and that's why I was on the farm and I broke my hip.
32:16
I got bloody bucked off a horse and I was in hospital and Jackie Oliver rung me up and said...
32:23
we've got this multi-trillionaire that's putting money into the team, we want you to come back and be number one.
32:29
And I thought, because I'm a little prostitute, and I said, well, how much?
32:35
And he gave me some figure and I went, okay, well, when do you want me on the plane?
32:40
So I...
32:42
I'd still had a bloody pin in my hips because I'd broke my femur.
32:47
So I went over.
32:48
The race was at Long Beach, so we went to this little track just east of L.A.
32:56
I can't think of the name right now.
32:57
But I drove the car, and it felt all right, you know, no dramas, and I don't even know where I finished in that race.
33:03
It really wasn't up in the top ten anyway, I don't think.
33:06
And then the next race was at Brands Hatch, Race of Champions, and I got second or third.
33:11
And then he said, right, well, the next race is Paul Ricker.
33:16
And I said, yeah, that's OK, fair enough.
33:18
But where's this Trinian here bloke?
33:20
What's happening with the Dojaki?
33:23
And just to show you what a complete idiot I am, I knocked him back.
33:27
I said, no, I'm not going anywhere unless I see some dough.
33:30
And then Ron Dennis rung me up and said, oh, Nicky has got the flu.
33:36
He doesn't know whether he'll be able to drive.
33:39
If you come down to Monaco, we'll give you X amount of dollars if you drive.
33:44
And if you don't drive, we'll give you Y amount of dollars.
33:46
So it's a paid trip to Monaco.
33:49
You'll get a few bob in your pocket anyway, blah, blah, blah.
33:54
I phoned up my then wife, and then I decided because of that, no, I'm going home.
34:03
So you could have driven from McLaren?
34:04
Yeah, at Monaco.
34:06
And had I not, I still would have got a few bob.
34:10
So just another good Jones decision along the way.
34:13
One thing I think that does, though, illustrate is something that you've more or less lived by right along the way, particularly in a contractual sense.
34:22
I think you've often said to me it's about being paid what you agreed on, being paid on time and no more, no less kind of thing.
34:31
You've had that sort of ethos, haven't you?
34:33
Well, that's...
34:34
You ask my wife.
34:35
I mean, that's one of my favorite sayings.
34:37
I don't want any more.
34:38
I don't want any less.
34:39
I just want what the deal is.
34:40
I'll honor my deal.
34:42
All I'm asking is you honor your deal.
34:44
If you're late, you'll have me on your doorstep.
34:47
You know, if I do anything, you feel free to have a go at me.
34:51
And I think that's a fairly simple sort of an ethos to live by.
34:54
I think that's all I ask.
34:59
That's the end of part one of our re-release episode with Alan Jones.
35:02
We are not done yet.
35:04
Jump back to the library and fire up part two whenever you're ready.
35:07
There is an incredible kind of mysterious breakfast meat story with Bernie Eccleston, which led to his sudden withdrawal from a race.
35:14
Getting the pilot to fire up the plane for a departure with the race barely underway.
35:20
And some supercars reflections too.
35:22
It's all part of a little 80th birthday celebration for our 1980 F1 world champion.