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Variants of Hell · Why We Do What We Do

0:22
Speaker 1: Welcome to Hell A Welcome to Why We do what
0:28
Speaker 1: we do. I'm your frying in Hell host Abraham.
0:33
Speaker 2: And I'm your could use a drink of water host Shane.
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Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about the things
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Speaker 1: that humans and non human animals do, and in the
0:41
Speaker 1: month of October, the whole entire month, we take the
0:46
Speaker 1: month to celebrate spooky creepy things by doing episodes themed
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Speaker 1: around those spooky creepy things. Because it's Halloween, which is
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Speaker 1: such a fun holiday, and we've been doing this for
0:56
Speaker 1: five years, these Halloween episodes. Can you believe it?
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Speaker 2: It's wild, wild, and it's always so fun because it's
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Speaker 2: my favorite season of the year. So I think it's yours, too, right.
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Speaker 1: It is, absolutely, I just I love so many creative
1:12
Speaker 1: I want to I guess I want to say, like,
1:14
Speaker 1: I like the stories that go with it. I like
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Speaker 1: the art that's been created around it. I like just
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Speaker 1: the sort of fun, whimsical treatment of the macabre that
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Speaker 1: we see in this space. So anyway, that's it's Halloween
1:27
Speaker 1: month here and we're excited. So this kicks off our
1:31
Speaker 1: month long trip down episodes that are again are themed
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Speaker 1: after spooky things and as I was alluding to with
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Speaker 1: my opening. This particular discussion today is going to be
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Speaker 1: about variance of hell.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and how and like you know, what what we
1:48
Speaker 2: do with hell, like how hell is used. So we're
1:50
Speaker 2: looking at hell from a science perspective. You know, I
1:53
Speaker 2: was thinking about this and maybe we'll unpack this. But
1:55
Speaker 2: scientifically speaking, it doesn't even make any sense for there
1:58
Speaker 2: to be a population of demons that live inside the
2:00
Speaker 2: earth in a really hot place, like it feels like
2:02
Speaker 2: that's not a place where organisms would exist. But you know,
2:05
Speaker 2: we're talking about supernatural. Who cares, doesn't matter. We're going
2:07
Speaker 2: to unpack all of it.
2:08
Speaker 1: Sure, And before we do that, we will first acknowledge
2:12
Speaker 1: that it is October first, which is I mean, we're
2:15
Speaker 1: kind of acknowledging that by just having this topic to
2:18
Speaker 1: begin with. Uh huh. We have to acknowledge that it
2:20
Speaker 1: is Balloons around the World Day.
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Speaker 2: So scary. It is CD Player Day.
2:25
Speaker 1: It is Homemade Cookies Day, yup, yup.
2:29
Speaker 2: It is International Coffee Day.
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Speaker 1: Yes please. It is International Day of Older Persons.
2:36
Speaker 2: That's nice, that seems sweet. It's the International Music Day
2:40
Speaker 2: as well.
2:41
Speaker 1: I accept love it. International Raccoon Appreciation Day. We appreciate you.
2:46
Speaker 2: Rocket, Oh my god, Rocket and Rocky too. I think
2:51
Speaker 2: is Rocky and yeah, it is less than Perfect Day.
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Speaker 1: It's National black Dog Day.
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Speaker 2: Mmm. It is national day.
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Speaker 1: Hm. That could mean so many things, so many things.
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Speaker 1: It is National hair Day. Hey, I have hair, Hey
3:07
Speaker 1: me too, look at that. It is National Pumpkin Seed Day.
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Speaker 1: Love that that makes sense to me? Yeah? Good? Hey,
3:14
Speaker 1: putting season begins is apparently what this holiday is also called.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we get ready. It's also Vegan Baking Day.
3:22
Speaker 1: What huh? It is Willy Wonka Day, and.
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Speaker 2: It is World Vegetarian Day.
3:29
Speaker 1: Nice, National Chimney Safety Week. It's important.
3:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you got to get it ready for Christmas, right,
3:36
Speaker 2: so that's right. Yeah, it's a National Drive Electric Week.
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Speaker 1: Okay, cool, that's very good. National Fall Foliage Week, yep.
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Speaker 1: Heading into the colors.
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Speaker 2: Love it, love it. We don't have that here.
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Speaker 1: Oh that's right.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the variants of hell right now.
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Speaker 2: It is National Hispanic Heritage Week.
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Speaker 1: Nice. It is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. That's very important.
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Speaker 2: Yes it is. It's AIDS Awareness Month as well.
4:00
Speaker 1: And it's also LGBT History Month that's very important as well.
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Speaker 2: And it is National Cookie month.
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Speaker 1: All right, So cookie gets its day and then it
4:09
Speaker 1: gets the rest of the month as well. Sure have
4:11
Speaker 1: your cookie and eat it too, I.
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Speaker 2: Suppose, yeah, several of your cookies, several.
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Speaker 1: All right. Well, anyway, if you are joining us for
4:18
Speaker 1: the first time, welcome. We're glad that you hear. We
4:21
Speaker 1: hope that you didn't get very dissuaded by that long
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Speaker 1: list of holidays that we acknowledged and were actually here
4:26
Speaker 1: to listen to an episode and hopefully enjoy it. And
4:29
Speaker 1: if you're a returning person, then you know our little
4:31
Speaker 1: thing that we do, and you are here anyway, so
4:33
Speaker 1: we really appreciate you waiting through all of that, which
4:36
Speaker 1: we think is fun and hopefully you find fun, and
4:39
Speaker 1: if you don't, then you're still here and we appreciate
4:41
Speaker 1: you all through all of that. So that's where we
4:45
Speaker 1: find ourselves. If you like to support us, you can
4:48
Speaker 1: join us on Patreon, pickup some merche, leave a rating
4:50
Speaker 1: and review, like, and subscribe, and of course go tell
4:53
Speaker 1: a friend. I'll talk more about that in detail once
4:56
Speaker 1: we get through our entire discussion here. I think that's
4:59
Speaker 1: what we have to say before we launch into our topic.
5:01
Speaker 1: Is there anything that I'm missing before we start.
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Speaker 2: Uh No, I think that's it.
5:06
Speaker 1: Okay, very good, We've covered the important things. Oh, this
5:09
Speaker 1: is a full length discussion with what we've been doing
5:11
Speaker 1: most of the time we've been a podcast, but we've
5:14
Speaker 1: started releasing these minis. Those come out on Mondays, and
5:16
Speaker 1: I always announce like these are minis, they come out
5:18
Speaker 1: on Mondays, and then I don't say anything special about
5:21
Speaker 1: our full length episodes. They come out on Wednesdays. But
5:23
Speaker 1: those are the two formats that we currently release, except
5:26
Speaker 1: we will also release those nostalgia episodes where we will
5:29
Speaker 1: replay an older episode and update some things on that
5:32
Speaker 1: topic since that originally published. But that's I guess what
5:37
Speaker 1: I could pad out our preamble with before we jump
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Speaker 1: into our topic, because we're going to talk about hell.
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Speaker 1: There have been many ideas about an afterlife throughout human history,
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Speaker 1: and in this afterlife, there's an aspect of it that
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Speaker 1: consists of evil, torture, and judgment. And we will enumerate
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Speaker 1: a list of several types of hell and they're corresponding faith,
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Speaker 1: God of torture, and a brief stop at the end
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Speaker 1: to consider why this idea is so pervasive. But that's
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Speaker 1: what we're what we're taking on today.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, hell, Yeah, I'm gonna say that a lot as
6:14
Speaker 2: we go, So just get ready. Probably I can't help it.
6:16
Speaker 2: It feels it feels right, So I mean, let's go
6:19
Speaker 2: ahead and dive into like a little bit of background.
6:21
Speaker 2: So we're going to unpack this a little bit. So
6:22
Speaker 2: the various ideas of hell are so variable that there's
6:25
Speaker 2: actually very little to tie them all together. It's like
6:28
Speaker 2: folklore and storytelling and all the things that go along
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Speaker 2: with this, which we'll unpack as we go a little bit.
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Speaker 2: So most of them occur in the afterlife, these versions
6:35
Speaker 2: of hell, but there are some that occurred during your lifetime,
6:38
Speaker 2: like twenty twenty five in the state of Florida or
6:41
Speaker 2: the United States in particular. Right, that's a very particular
6:44
Speaker 2: living hell.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so this is all to say, like, if
6:48
Speaker 1: we're trying to define this, what's kind of interesting is
6:52
Speaker 1: if you were to overlap all of the sort of
6:55
Speaker 1: vendagrams of the different hell, there's like a point at
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Speaker 1: which they don't all touch each other, which is going
7:01
Speaker 1: to say that the definition of hell, to encompass all
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Speaker 1: of these ideas is very difficult to do because they
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Speaker 1: you just can't find a commonality that exists across all
7:14
Speaker 1: of them. One of the most common is the afterlife thing.
7:18
Speaker 1: Most do involve some form of torture, but some are
7:21
Speaker 1: even meant to be just a time of reflection that
7:23
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have anything that's like torture directly. Probably the
7:27
Speaker 1: most business that through line in this idea of hell
7:31
Speaker 1: it has to do with our misdeeds in life and
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Speaker 1: some capacity, right that I think is the one thread
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Speaker 1: that sort of ties everything together. Maybe there's one more,
7:40
Speaker 1: but that's like one of the most consistent aspects of
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Speaker 1: the ideas of hell is this idea of our misdeeds
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Speaker 1: during life, right.
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Speaker 2: And So another common element that we find is that
7:52
Speaker 2: hell has something to do with religion in some capacity.
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Speaker 2: So despite the impressive variety and conceptualizations of hell, the
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Speaker 2: majority of them have some overla which likely have to
8:00
Speaker 2: do with the fact that the various religions have borrowed
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Speaker 2: from other religious traditions when constructing their narratives about hell
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Speaker 2: and the afterlife. So it's kind of like we're picking
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Speaker 2: and choosing and cherry picking and pulling all the things
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Speaker 2: together to create new narratives based on old narratives. We're
8:14
Speaker 2: taking the things that we like, we're getting rid of
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Speaker 2: things that we don't like. Now we're creating a new thing.
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Speaker 2: And that's kind of you see that kind of throughout history.
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Speaker 2: It's variations on a theme.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and we will sort of kind of do
8:25
Speaker 1: these in order, not really like we actually mostly grouped
8:28
Speaker 1: them sort of by theme, but there's a little bit
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Speaker 1: of order to it. And what you can start to
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Speaker 1: see is how the ideas borrowed from each other and
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Speaker 1: evolved their own stories from other people's stories about these
8:41
Speaker 1: sort of things. But importantly, one foundational concept and most
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Speaker 1: versions of hell speaking of these misdeeds thing is that
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Speaker 1: it depends on the concept of free will, which does
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Speaker 1: make sense if you think about it. It's really difficult
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Speaker 1: to justify having some kind of afterlife torture scenari where
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Speaker 1: someone is punished for their misdeeds if they did not
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Speaker 1: choose to do the things for which they're being punished,
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Speaker 1: but were instead maybe forced to do those things, right.
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Speaker 2: Right, So, of course, free will itself is a pretty
9:16
Speaker 2: flimsy and useless concept and fails to have a basic
9:19
Speaker 2: grasp on the facts of human behavior and neurology. So
9:21
Speaker 2: see our episode on this specifically because we do talk
9:24
Speaker 2: about this in depth or I don't think I was
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Speaker 2: on the episode that was that was pre me? Was
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Speaker 2: it pre me? I think it was.
9:30
Speaker 1: It was. Yeah, So we did do a nostalgia on it,
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Speaker 1: so that would have been we've only been doing nostalgia
9:35
Speaker 1: episodes since you've been on original episode. It was episode fifty.
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Speaker 1: So it was published like within the first year of
9:42
Speaker 1: us being a podcast. Yeah, and so this came out
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Speaker 1: April twenty fifth, twenty eighteen. Then we published our nostalgia
9:49
Speaker 1: follow up on this on November ninth, twenty twenty two.
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Speaker 2: Interesting here we are look at that.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so anyway you can, you can go there to
9:58
Speaker 1: help hear us unpass our discussion about free will. But
10:03
Speaker 1: I think the short answer to that is it's a
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Speaker 1: useless concept. If you start to break down free will
10:09
Speaker 1: in terms of what that means. The idea of free
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Speaker 1: will being that we are not influenced by our experiences,
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Speaker 1: most people don't even buy what that is. And if
10:19
Speaker 1: you accept free will is we are influenced by our experiences,
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Speaker 1: then it becomes a useless idea that has no utility
10:25
Speaker 1: because it completely undermines the whole point of free will. Yeah,
10:29
Speaker 1: so that's like just that simple of a breakdown pretty
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Speaker 1: much dismantles the idea and demonstrates its lack of usefulness
10:37
Speaker 1: and anything that we're going to talk about.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, most definitely.
10:41
Speaker 1: So, Yeah, we have all these sort of mystical religious
10:44
Speaker 1: versions of Hell, and all of these exist in these
10:47
Speaker 1: sort of oral storytelling traditions. There is no actual episode
10:52
Speaker 1: or no actual version of Hell that's ever been confirmed
10:55
Speaker 1: or described by anybody who has ever been there or
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Speaker 1: seen it, or science or philosophy. There was actually, coincidentally,
11:02
Speaker 1: a very large hole that was dug and I want
11:05
Speaker 1: to say Russia where they It was like the deepest
11:08
Speaker 1: anyone had ever gotten, and it was getting so hot
11:10
Speaker 1: as they were drilling down because they were drilling down
11:13
Speaker 1: toward the mantle of the earth, which is basically lava.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:16
Speaker 1: I think there are people who legitimately hypothesized that they
11:19
Speaker 1: were actually drilling down into Hell, like that's what they
11:21
Speaker 1: thought they was happening.
11:23
Speaker 2: Yeah.
11:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, but of course they were drilling down into hot lava,
11:25
Speaker 1: which is hot and lava, and so it's going to
11:30
Speaker 1: melt your drill bits, Yeah, as you get very close
11:32
Speaker 1: to it. So that's that's what happened. The only real
11:34
Speaker 1: confirmed version of Hell is our current reality, particularly in
11:38
Speaker 1: the United States.
11:39
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, yeah, there are two, Like I think these
11:42
Speaker 2: are just kind of fun side notes too. There is
11:44
Speaker 2: a believe it's a hole in Turkey that is perpetually
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Speaker 2: on fire because like wherever they drilled is like constantly
11:54
Speaker 2: leaking methane and they can't put the fire out, so
11:56
Speaker 2: it's like it's just constantly burning. It's like an open
11:59
Speaker 2: hole full of fire. So that's cool.
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Speaker 1: There's one like that in the United States. If you
12:03
Speaker 1: didn't know that, there's a it's a Virginia. I think
12:07
Speaker 1: it's in Pennsylvania.
12:09
Speaker 2: It's basically it's what Silent Hill is based on. Yes, yeah,
12:11
Speaker 2: so for more spooky things. And there is also a
12:15
Speaker 2: castle in I believe the Czech Republic where it's called
12:20
Speaker 2: Huska Castle Huska or Huska Castle, which is believed to
12:23
Speaker 2: be a gateway to Hell because there were a lot
12:25
Speaker 2: of like weird things that were happening around the castle.
12:28
Speaker 2: But the way the castle is designed typically castles like
12:31
Speaker 2: are built for defense and and armaments are pointed out
12:35
Speaker 2: towards where whoever, you know, invaders, right, So for some reason,
12:39
Speaker 2: this castle is built where are all the armaments are
12:41
Speaker 2: pointed in towards the inside of the castle, where there's
12:45
Speaker 2: a particular hole that like somebody was lowered, Like you know,
12:47
Speaker 2: that's the lore. Somebody was lowered into and they came
12:50
Speaker 2: out with bright white hair and they died from shocks. So,
12:52
Speaker 2: like there's just things like that that are really interesting.
12:54
Speaker 2: So Castle Huska is another one to check out if
12:56
Speaker 2: you want to do that.
12:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good one. Yeah, so I
12:59
Speaker 1: love it. Up at Centralia, Pennsylvania, that was a similar thing.
13:03
Speaker 1: It was like it was from drilling I think that happened,
13:06
Speaker 1: or maybe coal mining. I think it was coal mining. Yeah,
13:08
Speaker 1: it started the fire. And because it's a fossil fuel
13:10
Speaker 1: and it is basically like burning through the reserves slowly,
13:13
Speaker 1: it's basically a town that's always has like fire pits
13:19
Speaker 1: and smoke just emanating from the ground. Yeah, so sort
13:22
Speaker 1: of described as hell on Earth. Yeah, the entire underground
13:25
Speaker 1: is on fire. Yeah yeah, exactly the entire ground. But yeah,
13:28
Speaker 1: speaking of Hell on Earth, let's do a quick ad break. Yes,
13:38
Speaker 1: all right, we are back, and we've been describing these
13:41
Speaker 1: various ideas and versions of hell, including the real ones
13:44
Speaker 1: that we can find in a geographical locations on our planet,
13:48
Speaker 1: which mostly are just hot like that. That's yeah, that's
13:52
Speaker 1: the thing about them. Yeah, it's exempt sure one with
13:54
Speaker 1: a Yeah, there's a giant hole that has a lot
13:56
Speaker 1: of lore surrounding it. And actually that would be a
13:58
Speaker 1: really fun episode to just like dig into that castle,
14:01
Speaker 1: maybe the mini or.
14:02
Speaker 2: Something Castle Huska. My best friend has been there and
14:05
Speaker 2: said it's the most unremarkable castle she's ever been to.
14:11
Speaker 1: Wow, okay, fun. Yeah, but uh okay, great, Well I
14:15
Speaker 1: think we need another mini for Halloween, so maybe we'll
14:17
Speaker 1: do Castle Huska.
14:19
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's on the list, perfect, beautiful.
14:22
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's go ahead and count them down.
14:24
Speaker 1: We're going to talk through these various versions of hell.
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Speaker 1: We're gonna start with Greek mythology and Greek mythology, you
14:30
Speaker 1: have Tartarus. It's a deep, shadowy abyss of torture located
14:34
Speaker 1: deep beneath the Earth's surface. And this also is the
14:38
Speaker 1: place that serves as a prison for the Titans. It
14:41
Speaker 1: could be for the rebellious gods and for enemies of
14:46
Speaker 1: the divine or maybe divine enemies who are also divine,
14:49
Speaker 1: but then our enemies to the people or other divine anyway,
14:53
Speaker 1: that's what you'll find down in Tartarus, according to Greek mythology.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that sounds familiar, and you are somebody who
14:59
Speaker 2: studies Roman mythology, it's pretty much the same thing with
15:02
Speaker 2: different names. Yeah, so that's Hades, right, Tartaris in Greek
15:05
Speaker 2: mythology is as Hades and Roman. So now, eventually it
15:08
Speaker 2: became a place of torture for the worst people and
15:09
Speaker 2: shifted more towards punishments that were designed to reflect the
15:12
Speaker 2: actions of the sinner that landed them in this terrible,
15:15
Speaker 2: terrible place.
15:17
Speaker 1: I actually think Hades is still from Greek mythology.
15:19
Speaker 2: Oh maybe it is.
15:20
Speaker 1: Hades is the name of a person that became sort of.
15:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, Haites is the god of death.
15:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, used synonymously with like the underworld afterlife. Sure, but
15:29
Speaker 1: I think the actual location is Tartaris. I'm not sure
15:31
Speaker 1: what the Roman equivalent is, but I believe you're correct
15:33
Speaker 1: that they just basically borrowed from it and then use
15:36
Speaker 1: the same idea.
15:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
15:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so we're talking about this place where
15:40
Speaker 1: it was just this shadowy abyss that was used to
15:42
Speaker 1: store titans when you weren't using them, and then it
15:45
Speaker 1: sort of over time morphed into this place that was
15:48
Speaker 1: torture for people, with punishment that was meant to fit
15:52
Speaker 1: the crimes that they committed. So we have the story
15:56
Speaker 1: of Sisyphis. This is a very famous story in Greek mythology.
16:01
Speaker 1: Evidently mostly people are familiar with this punishment. Evidently what
16:04
Speaker 1: he did is he murdered guests and seduced his niece
16:08
Speaker 1: during his lifetime, and Greeks were very big on hospitality.
16:11
Speaker 1: You do not murder guests, and so this was considered
16:16
Speaker 1: quite punishment worthy. And so he was doomed to roll
16:20
Speaker 1: a boulder uphill until when it finally reached the top,
16:23
Speaker 1: it rolled back down to the bottom, and then he
16:25
Speaker 1: must start all over again. Some people will refer to
16:29
Speaker 1: tasks that they have as Sisifian or Sisyphian tasks, which
16:33
Speaker 1: are these unending, laborious tasks that you do them and
16:37
Speaker 1: it's like you never actually make any progress. Pulling weeds
16:40
Speaker 1: in your yard is basically the same thing. Yep, you
16:42
Speaker 1: pull them and then they just sprout right back up
16:44
Speaker 1: where you pulled them from, and then you have to
16:46
Speaker 1: do it again, and nothing ever changes and it sucks
16:48
Speaker 1: and I hate it.
16:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's the worst. It's terrible. It's terrible. Now,
16:52
Speaker 2: King Tantalus or Tantalus served his son as a meal
16:56
Speaker 2: to the gods, and he stole the wine of the gods.
16:58
Speaker 2: So bad news, by the way, if you all don't know.
17:02
Speaker 2: And when it comes to like Greek and Roman mythology,
17:04
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to piss off the gods most mythology. True,
17:06
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to piss off the gods, right.
17:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
17:08
Speaker 2: Now, in punishment, he was sentenced to float in water
17:12
Speaker 2: below a fruit tree, but whenever he attempted to grab
17:15
Speaker 2: the fruit, it moved away from him, as did the water,
17:18
Speaker 2: so he suffered thirst and hunger eternally.
17:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's basically floating in water that he can't drink,
17:25
Speaker 1: dying of thirst, just outside of the reach of a
17:27
Speaker 1: fruit tree he can't reach, dying of hunger. And they
17:31
Speaker 1: felt that this eternal longing for sustenance that he could
17:35
Speaker 1: never reach was appropriate punishment for him.
17:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, not nice, all right.
17:41
Speaker 1: Buddhism, believe it or not, Buddhism has a concept of hell.
17:45
Speaker 2: Oh.
17:45
Speaker 1: In Buddhist Naraya and Naraka. It consists of eight hot
17:49
Speaker 1: hells and eight cold hells. You want to have both
17:53
Speaker 1: temperature extremes here balance. But in the view of Buddhism,
17:56
Speaker 1: you're actually born into one of those hells, as determined
17:59
Speaker 1: by the action you took and the karma you accrued
18:01
Speaker 1: in your previous life. Now, the interesting thing about these
18:06
Speaker 1: two is that time spent here is not eternal. It
18:09
Speaker 1: lasts until your karma has been balanced, and then you
18:12
Speaker 1: were reborn into a higher hell once released. The point
18:17
Speaker 1: here being that like, depending how on how out of
18:19
Speaker 1: whack your karma was in life, is how long you
18:24
Speaker 1: will have to spend in this place. So it was
18:27
Speaker 1: like all you did was, I don't know, microwave fish
18:31
Speaker 1: in your office. You maybe only spend like four lifetimes
18:34
Speaker 1: in there, versus if you were in the current Trump administration,
18:38
Speaker 1: you'll spend like a million lifetimes in there.
18:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, standard
18:44
Speaker 2: fair Like, there's a method right now. The eight hells
18:47
Speaker 2: increase in discomfort and intensity as the levels proceed downward,
18:50
Speaker 2: and the eight ice hells also decrease in temperature, so
18:53
Speaker 2: that each level is colder than the last and the
18:56
Speaker 2: participant is alone. You might hear that, and you might go, Okay,
19:00
Speaker 2: there are levels of hell. Is that similar to circles
19:02
Speaker 2: of hell? The circles of hell are a little bit different.
19:05
Speaker 2: We're not going to talk about Machiavelli and Hell's and
19:07
Speaker 2: all those fun things, so like, but it is one
19:09
Speaker 2: of those things that like it is kind of like
19:11
Speaker 2: an interesting kind of layer. Was like, it gets worse
19:13
Speaker 2: the more your karma is out of balance.
19:15
Speaker 1: We'll briefly touch on Dante's concepts of the Christian Hell.
19:21
Speaker 1: And I do think that that that was developed out
19:24
Speaker 1: of traditions such as this, where you had these ideas
19:27
Speaker 1: of levels of hell, and that was sort of borrowed
19:30
Speaker 1: from that. Yeah, all right, so that's Buddhism. Let's talk
19:32
Speaker 1: about Norse mythology. In Norse mythology, you have this place
19:36
Speaker 1: called Nastrand and what that actually means, like that translates
19:40
Speaker 1: into corpse shore. Yeah, and so this is part of Hellheim.
19:46
Speaker 1: Very appropriate name, I guess, and this is where just
19:49
Speaker 1: the worst sinners go. They end up on these snake
19:54
Speaker 1: infested shores in Hellheim and a Nastrand as corpses. And
20:01
Speaker 1: the people who end up here these are like murderers,
20:04
Speaker 1: I guess, they considered this on par with murderers, as
20:07
Speaker 1: oath breakers and adulters, like those are the people who
20:11
Speaker 1: end up a Nastrand and the snake infested shores.
20:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, now, the snake venom creates rivers of poison that
20:18
Speaker 2: sinners must wade through, which sounds so uncomfortable.
20:22
Speaker 1: Yes, and actually so there are cages in this place
20:26
Speaker 1: that are made from the bones of snakes, and the
20:28
Speaker 1: bones of snakes drip with poison. The poison is so
20:31
Speaker 1: much that it creates these rivers and then the tortured
20:35
Speaker 1: must wade through them. This place is guarded by Niedhoger,
20:39
Speaker 1: which is the dragon that oversees the worlds of the
20:43
Speaker 1: damned and he choose on their souls. So that's the
20:47
Speaker 1: dragon down in Nastrand. Apparently the dragon also chews on
20:51
Speaker 1: the nose on the roots of Igdrisil, the tree of
20:54
Speaker 1: life in mythology. So this dragon's kind of a jerk.
20:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's kind of like a that's not trained very well.
21:01
Speaker 2: It just keeps chewing on your shoes and like the
21:03
Speaker 2: furniture and like now you're mad about it. So yeah,
21:06
Speaker 2: that'd be like the worst kind of like pet dragon.
21:08
Speaker 2: I think, well, that and the one that just like
21:10
Speaker 2: keeps setting your house on fire. I guess that would
21:12
Speaker 2: be pretty upsetting. Yeah, Smile would be a pretty terrible
21:15
Speaker 2: pet dragon too, I guess. But Smile is English lore,
21:21
Speaker 2: so not not Norse. So on dragons, yeah yah, yeah, yeah,
21:26
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, let's make sure we get a dragon citation
21:28
Speaker 2: in here. I also just it's just strong recommendation. Spend
21:31
Speaker 2: some time reading Norse mythology. Fascinating stuff, like it really
21:35
Speaker 2: super interesting. Like Thor has two goats that he can
21:39
Speaker 2: kill and eat and they regenerate as long as he
21:41
Speaker 2: has there like all of their bones, like they like
21:44
Speaker 2: he can like kill and eat them every day and
21:46
Speaker 2: every night and they just come back to life as
21:47
Speaker 2: long as he has all of his bones. But if
21:48
Speaker 2: he's missing a bone, he doesn't get him back.
21:51
Speaker 1: So yeah, And there's like Odin's crows that have some
21:55
Speaker 1: specific abilities. Friga has like all these magical powers. Loki
21:59
Speaker 1: as like this really interesting lore and magical powers.
22:02
Speaker 2: Look, he turns into a wolf and has a baby
22:04
Speaker 2: as a wolf. It's a whole thing.
22:06
Speaker 1: The appropriation of those characters for comics I love. I
22:08
Speaker 1: think it's really fun and the actual mythology itself is
22:11
Speaker 1: like crazy, it's just super interesting. So Outland is yeah,
22:15
Speaker 1: very interesting, really great storytelling. Yeah, not really great storytelling.
22:20
Speaker 1: Is like ads, All right, let's go ahead and talk
22:29
Speaker 1: about Islamic Hell.
22:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Johannam or Johannam is seven layers Hell, with
22:36
Speaker 2: each layer being reserved for a specific type of sinner.
22:39
Speaker 2: So this version of Hell exists in a temporal contiguity
22:42
Speaker 2: with the world and awaits the worst sinners polytheism, hypocrisy,
22:46
Speaker 2: and people who disobey God's law reject religion. So it
22:49
Speaker 2: basically like operates has the same clocks as us.
22:53
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's like the people who are in Hell
22:55
Speaker 1: there are in Hell right now alongside us in our
23:00
Speaker 1: temporal existence of reality, and it's people who reject religion
23:04
Speaker 1: who end up there.
23:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
23:07
Speaker 1: That's actually a theme We're going to see quite a
23:09
Speaker 1: bit more as we move through these. All right, So
23:12
Speaker 1: the idea here in Islamic tradition is that Judgment Day,
23:15
Speaker 1: everyone crosses a bridge called as sarat a sarat maybe,
23:20
Speaker 1: and those who are doomed to torture will fall off
23:22
Speaker 1: the bridge, and the bridge like traverses, it goes over
23:26
Speaker 1: this Johanna. So everybody must cross it, and if they
23:30
Speaker 1: were sinners, then they will fall off the bridge as
23:32
Speaker 1: they're crossing, But the pious will make it across the
23:34
Speaker 1: bridge and they will reach heaven.
23:37
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the top layer of Johanna or Joe. Yeah,
23:39
Speaker 2: Johannah is more likely more like purgatory and essentially the
23:44
Speaker 2: only part of Johanna in which people have any hope
23:47
Speaker 2: of escaping if they can repent their sins. In the
23:50
Speaker 2: lower levels, though, torture can include blazing fires, boiling water, lacerations,
23:55
Speaker 2: and drinking puss filled water no thanks.
23:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is like a surprising amount of having to
24:03
Speaker 1: consume gross beverages that make up conceptualizations of hell, you know.
24:08
Speaker 2: And it's really fascinating to think about that because then
24:10
Speaker 2: we turn that into a game show called Fear Factor.
24:12
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and then that becomes a podcast that ruins
24:15
Speaker 1: the world. Yeah, here we are, so we're all in
24:18
Speaker 1: hell now. Yep, all right, let's switch to Hinduism. So
24:22
Speaker 1: in Hinduism you have Naraka. This is a dark realm
24:25
Speaker 1: below the earth where the souls of the dead are
24:28
Speaker 1: temporarily punished for their misdeeds in life. As I said,
24:31
Speaker 1: misdeeds very common theme here.
24:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and this is a purification hell with
24:36
Speaker 2: twenty eight sections tailored to particular sins.
24:39
Speaker 1: So when you arrive at Naraka, Chitragupta finds your entry
24:44
Speaker 1: in a ledger containing a detailed list of all of
24:47
Speaker 1: your transgressions. So you have your bookkeeper there, Chitragupta, and
24:51
Speaker 1: Chitragupta reads these to the lord of Naraka named Yama,
24:56
Speaker 1: who is the god of death. So you're getting ratted
24:59
Speaker 1: out by an as soon as you get there. They're
25:01
Speaker 1: just gonna like have you stand there where they lead
25:03
Speaker 1: off every they read off every terrible thing you've ever
25:06
Speaker 1: done to the god who will decide your fate.
25:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this and like,
25:11
Speaker 2: as I'm reading this, I'm going that sounds familiar, Like
25:14
Speaker 2: could you imagine going to like I don't know, like
25:17
Speaker 2: maybe something like gates or like they could even be
25:21
Speaker 2: described as pearly and there is somebody there that you
25:24
Speaker 2: meet that tells you all the things that you do
25:26
Speaker 2: and decides whether you enter or not. Like maybe we'll
25:28
Speaker 2: call that person what Peter, Saint Peter or something like that,
25:31
Speaker 2: just as a guest, Like just like it's just a
25:33
Speaker 2: random end and then like if you don't get in,
25:35
Speaker 2: you just go to like a dark realm. I don't know,
25:39
Speaker 2: like hell, to go hang out with Satan. I don't know.
25:42
Speaker 2: Sounds familiar to me, but I don't know. Maybe I'm
25:43
Speaker 2: just making that up. I don't know, Maybe I just
25:45
Speaker 2: maybe I just dream that. Now Yama sentences you accordingly.
25:48
Speaker 2: In those punishments. They're carried out by demonic messengers called umadatas,
25:54
Speaker 2: and the punishments may include being suffocated, burned, consumed by serpents,
25:59
Speaker 2: or drinking disgusting substances again like diet mountain dew.
26:07
Speaker 1: Oh well, there goes our sponsorship with die mountain dew.
26:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, Pepsy just pulled out. Oh man, all right.
26:14
Speaker 1: So those Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Zoroastrianism, you have douzak and
26:21
Speaker 1: this is a deep, dark well in which the adversary
26:25
Speaker 1: of their god, our Heman, carries out a variety of punishments,
26:29
Speaker 1: including having you be tortured by giant animals or subjected
26:34
Speaker 1: to extreme temperatures extreme hot and extreme cold. So this
26:38
Speaker 1: sort of has overlap with the hot and cold that
26:41
Speaker 1: we saw in Buddhism. And now we have animals that
26:45
Speaker 1: are our tortures.
26:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it sounds like so far. A lot
26:49
Speaker 2: of the hells include like liberal use of unconditioned motivating operations.
26:56
Speaker 1: That's such a nerdy way.
27:00
Speaker 2: So now people are packed tightly together but still feel
27:04
Speaker 2: isolated from one another, and they're likely to only be
27:07
Speaker 2: able to consume foul smelling and tasting food and drink.
27:10
Speaker 2: So pickles and mountain dew, cheese and pineapple and pizza
27:18
Speaker 2: and pineapple on pizza. I like pineapple on pizza.
27:22
Speaker 1: I'm putting in the category. It doesn't remind me this
27:24
Speaker 1: whole idea of you been tortured by giant animals. The
27:28
Speaker 1: far side has this amazing comic where it's a picture
27:31
Speaker 1: of God and God's looking at this He's created all
27:34
Speaker 1: these animals and they're all sitting there, and he says
27:38
Speaker 1: something along the lines of He's like, Wow, this looks
27:41
Speaker 1: really great. Now I'm going to create something to kill
27:43
Speaker 1: all of you, or like to eat you all or
27:47
Speaker 1: something like that. That's great.
27:50
Speaker 2: I love that.
27:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was really good. Okay, this is a religion
27:55
Speaker 1: I had not heard of before, this called Mendian. And
27:59
Speaker 1: in the Mandian hell, we have the world of darkness,
28:03
Speaker 1: with the Great Sea of suff The demon Leviathan also
28:07
Speaker 1: called Er throws souls into the Great Sea of suff
28:12
Speaker 1: where they are held prisoner and tortured.
28:15
Speaker 2: Yep. Now, at the end of days, the souls will
28:17
Speaker 2: be released from their prison and allowed to move on.
28:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is a more temporary holding hell. But
28:23
Speaker 1: you get to hang out in the Sea of suff
28:25
Speaker 1: maybe suffering. Yeah, with a demon god Leviathan thing.
28:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sounds scary.
28:31
Speaker 1: Sounds like a really good metal album theme. Yeah.
28:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would be shocked if there wasn't one of
28:37
Speaker 2: those already.
28:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Okay. Slavic Slavic religion tradition of hell, you
28:44
Speaker 1: have this place called Peklow. This is an underworld in
28:47
Speaker 1: which souls are judged and punished for their actions, overseen
28:51
Speaker 1: by Pechlank, who judges the wicked and offers them a
28:54
Speaker 1: chance at redemption. So you do they guess they want
28:59
Speaker 1: people to feel badly enough that they want to escape,
29:02
Speaker 1: but they want them to first face the punishment.
29:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if they don't accept the offer for redemption,
29:07
Speaker 2: then they might be turned to stone, turned to a
29:10
Speaker 2: werewolf or a flush eating monster. I feel like it'd
29:13
Speaker 2: rather be a monster than a stone.
29:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that too.
29:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair.
29:18
Speaker 1: Also, I think were wolves are flesh eating monsters, but
29:20
Speaker 1: I suppose they mean flesh eating monsters that are not
29:23
Speaker 1: wear wolves. Yeah, yeah, it's fine.
29:25
Speaker 2: There's two fleshating monsters. There's were wolves and non were
29:27
Speaker 2: wolf flesh eating monsters. We have those kinds.
29:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, were wolves and RFK Junior.
29:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, nailed it all right.
29:35
Speaker 1: Alternatively, so there's like different conceptualizations here. Peclo is a dark,
29:41
Speaker 1: fiery place of torment ruled by Vellus, a horned dragon
29:45
Speaker 1: like god, which is, you know, pretty cool.
29:48
Speaker 2: We got more dragons, yeah, very metal first before I
29:52
Speaker 2: get into this next point. I always think it's interesting
29:54
Speaker 2: when they say dark and fiery, like.
29:58
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, Like the fiery seems like it would
30:01
Speaker 1: negate the darkness. Yeah.
30:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if you're in hell and there's lots of fire,
30:05
Speaker 2: somebody left the lights on, right, and can't be dark
30:07
Speaker 2: if the lights are on. So anyway, it's.
30:10
Speaker 1: Very dark fire.
30:10
Speaker 2: It's dark fire. Ooh, it's scary fire. Now. Vellos may
30:13
Speaker 2: have been the inspiration for the Christian Satanic figure that
30:17
Speaker 2: we all know and some people love, but like that's
30:20
Speaker 2: kind of like a thing to think about is like again,
30:22
Speaker 2: pulling from lore and pulling from like, you know, different
30:25
Speaker 2: types of belief systems to create new ones happens pretty often,
30:28
Speaker 2: so this may be one of those things.
30:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, Vellas is described as this horned figure very powerful.
30:36
Speaker 1: I don't remember whether or not the lure consistent of
30:39
Speaker 1: like as being like a rejected holy figure or something
30:42
Speaker 1: like that. But the source I actually found basically just
30:46
Speaker 1: said this is the inspiration for the Christian Satanic devil.
30:52
Speaker 1: But I didn't do a lot more fact checking beyond
30:54
Speaker 1: what they said on this and basically accepted that it
30:58
Speaker 1: was probably more accurate to say and may have been
31:03
Speaker 1: the inspiration for that figure.
31:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's fair.
31:07
Speaker 1: All right, Well, the next section we have is a
31:10
Speaker 1: bunch of different versions of Christian hell. All of them
31:14
Speaker 1: have boobs and penises. Sure, no, just kidding, but all right,
31:18
Speaker 1: these are the ideas of the various denominations of Christianity
31:22
Speaker 1: and the hells that encompass those spaces. So yeah, well
31:26
Speaker 1: let's talk about the Christian idea of hell.
31:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, the Christian hell actually differs slightly across various
31:33
Speaker 2: nominations even so far is disagreeing about whether Hell is
31:36
Speaker 2: a metaphorical place or a literal place. In some places
31:39
Speaker 2: it's a literal black hole. So if you want to
31:42
Speaker 2: see the documentary event Horizon, about a space crew that
31:44
Speaker 2: almost made it, that's a good one to check out. Also,
31:48
Speaker 2: on a very serious note, one of the best horror
31:50
Speaker 2: movies has ever been made. Scares me to death.
31:54
Speaker 1: It's kind of an insane movie.
31:56
Speaker 2: It is an absurd movie.
31:58
Speaker 1: It is absurd and it's weird, and it's such a
32:02
Speaker 1: unique piece of art. I just it's kind of a
32:05
Speaker 1: special movie, you know, truly.
32:07
Speaker 2: Is it's its own thing, man, all right.
32:10
Speaker 1: The overseer of Christian Hell is Satan, the devil, or Beelzebub.
32:14
Speaker 1: There are more names for him, sometimes just called the
32:17
Speaker 1: beast of Note Hell is not actually mentioned anywhere in
32:21
Speaker 1: the Old Testament. This is something that many people who
32:25
Speaker 1: are both Christian and non Christian may not have known.
32:27
Speaker 1: But in the Old Testament of the Bible no mention
32:29
Speaker 1: of Hell. You do get the concept of a place
32:32
Speaker 1: called shell Ol Shellol, and this is referenced sixty six
32:36
Speaker 1: times in the Old Testament. But scholars disagree how best
32:39
Speaker 1: to translate this. The two most common interpretations are that
32:42
Speaker 1: that word literally translates from a word that literally means grave,
32:48
Speaker 1: and some have interpreted it more liberally to mean land
32:52
Speaker 1: of the dead. Some even interpret it to mean just
32:56
Speaker 1: the dead. Neither actually suggests anything having to do with
33:00
Speaker 1: eternal torture or a torturer or anything. But you have
33:05
Speaker 1: no mention of hell in the Old Testament. You have
33:07
Speaker 1: the shell place, and that any translation you get from
33:12
Speaker 1: that is like the grave, land of the dead, or
33:14
Speaker 1: the dead, but it's not something where you have like
33:17
Speaker 1: a demonic figure torturing people for their misdeeds. Is just
33:21
Speaker 1: the other side or once life is over.
33:24
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So the first time
33:27
Speaker 2: Hell is actually mentioned in the Christian Bible is when
33:29
Speaker 2: somebody was reading and a person walked up to that
33:32
Speaker 2: person and interrupted them and tried to sell them something.
33:34
Speaker 2: So that was really the first time we saw that,
33:37
Speaker 2: and they called it an ad All right, and we
33:47
Speaker 2: are back, we're talking about the first time Hell is mentioned.
33:49
Speaker 2: And so we have now said, you know, at this
33:51
Speaker 2: point in time, hell was never mentioned in the Old
33:54
Speaker 2: Testament of the Bible. The first time it's mentioned in
33:56
Speaker 2: the Christian Bible is in the New Testament, and Biblical
33:59
Speaker 2: scholars suggest at those instances, as few as they are,
34:02
Speaker 2: could be understood stood as misinterpreting words that don't mean
34:06
Speaker 2: hell from the languages and the cultures that they were
34:08
Speaker 2: influenced by.
34:09
Speaker 1: Okay, so we have in Luke sixteen nineteen through sixteen
34:13
Speaker 1: thirty one, Jesus describes a rich man as being in
34:16
Speaker 1: torment in Hades and begging for relief. That's how it's written. However,
34:21
Speaker 1: even in the references to the lake of Fire, the
34:24
Speaker 1: flames are described as eternal. It's so they say eternal flames.
34:29
Speaker 1: They don't say eternal suffering, and so they indicate this
34:32
Speaker 1: idea of Hades being this lake of fire in eternal flames,
34:37
Speaker 1: and I think some people just understood that to mean
34:40
Speaker 1: maternal suffering. There are some translations of the Bible that
34:43
Speaker 1: simply decided that rather than calling it Hades, they would
34:46
Speaker 1: call it hell. So you might find versions of the
34:48
Speaker 1: Bible where you see the word hell in there in
34:51
Speaker 1: this exact passage, but older translations, ones that are closer
34:56
Speaker 1: to the original way that it was written, translated to Hades,
35:00
Speaker 1: and then they give this idea of lake of fire
35:02
Speaker 1: with eternal burning flames, sure, which again I think some
35:05
Speaker 1: people then said, oh, eternal suffering, and it's like, that's
35:07
Speaker 1: not what it said though.
35:08
Speaker 2: That's how it says. The idea of hell is that
35:10
Speaker 2: people who have rejected God are separated from God. Revelations
35:14
Speaker 2: describes a lake of eternal fire and brimstone. Importantly, no
35:17
Speaker 2: amount of pain or suffering is considered sufficient to satisfy
35:20
Speaker 2: the bloodlust of the jailers, who would see quote unquote
35:23
Speaker 2: criminals brought here. So the people brought here do not
35:27
Speaker 2: die or succumb to their injuries. Instead, they are either
35:30
Speaker 2: revived or kept alive and awake and definitely to be
35:33
Speaker 2: able to continue suffering their torture.
35:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of like if you did something bad
35:38
Speaker 1: in life, you should spend all of eternity many billion,
35:42
Speaker 1: trillion times your lifetime suffering for it. Yeah, just completely
35:47
Speaker 1: insatiable bloodlust.
35:48
Speaker 2: Seems like a disproportionate punishment, is all I'm saying.
35:52
Speaker 1: It certainly does, so there's that idea, Yeah, all right.
35:55
Speaker 1: In Catholicism, hell is a self imposed isolation that comes
36:01
Speaker 1: from rejecting God. So it's if you reject God, then
36:06
Speaker 1: you end up in this isolation from other people. It's
36:09
Speaker 1: actually kind of a unique commentary on human beings that
36:12
Speaker 1: a really significant number of ideas of hell consists of
36:16
Speaker 1: being alone, right like you don't have people around you
36:19
Speaker 1: at all. I think that that taps into a recognition
36:23
Speaker 1: of the importance and value we have for one another
36:26
Speaker 1: as a species, even if we like to act like
36:28
Speaker 1: we don't have that a lot of the time right now.
36:31
Speaker 2: With Protestantism, Protestantism, Protestantism, Protestantism sees hell as a place
36:38
Speaker 2: created by God to punish fallen angels and the devil,
36:41
Speaker 2: as well as those who reject salvation.
36:44
Speaker 1: Yes, rejecting God, rejecting salvation comes back. Eastern Orthodoxy sees
36:50
Speaker 1: hell as a state of torment after having been separated
36:53
Speaker 1: from God but experiencing his presence without a connection. So
36:57
Speaker 1: it's people who were, like given the opera oportunity to
37:01
Speaker 1: contact God but did not develop a connection to God
37:04
Speaker 1: or lost the connection. This results in unbearable anguish, which
37:09
Speaker 1: taken together, makes Hell a metaphorical spiritual condition and one
37:14
Speaker 1: that you can actually experience during your lifetime, so that
37:17
Speaker 1: in this version of Eastern Orthodoxy, hell could be something
37:21
Speaker 1: that happens while you're alive, not just an afterlife thing.
37:24
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Now, Gnosta Christians actually viewed Hell metaphorically as
37:29
Speaker 2: the flawed material world. So it's basically just kind of
37:31
Speaker 2: like here we are. Yeah, this is now, you know.
37:35
Speaker 1: The other mention of Hell that you might see in
37:37
Speaker 1: the Bible is called Gehenna, and this is comes from
37:41
Speaker 1: Jewish mysticism, where it is another world that will commonly
37:45
Speaker 1: be cited in the Bible regarding discussions about Hell, and
37:49
Speaker 1: in Gehenna, souls confront their misdeeds like we've seen in others,
37:53
Speaker 1: although not Hell exactly. It's more like a purgatory where
37:57
Speaker 1: souls reflect on their misdeeds and experience great shame. And
38:02
Speaker 1: the more thoroughly and completely they experience the shame, the
38:06
Speaker 1: more quickly they will be purified and move on from
38:10
Speaker 1: this purgatory. But they must spend time in purgatory really
38:14
Speaker 1: living into the shame of their misdeeds as much as possible.
38:18
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, No, no.
38:20
Speaker 2: Nope, nope, nope nope, I don't want to.
38:22
Speaker 1: Do that again. Another place that RFK Junior once there
38:25
Speaker 1: will never leave.
38:28
Speaker 2: Nailed it, absolutely nails all right. So we've also got Mormonism,
38:32
Speaker 2: and Mormonism has outer Darkness, which is a very cool name.
38:35
Speaker 2: And I was trying to figure out if Mormonism took
38:37
Speaker 2: that from HP Lovecraft or if HP Lovecraft took that
38:40
Speaker 2: from Mormonism. I'm pretty sure Mormonism gave HP Lovecraft the idea,
38:45
Speaker 2: but that.
38:46
Speaker 1: Makes sense to me.
38:46
Speaker 2: It's also spooky. But out of Darkness is only for
38:49
Speaker 2: the sons of Perdition, who are described as people who
38:53
Speaker 2: had perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ, received the Holy Spirit,
38:56
Speaker 2: and then completely rejected Christ. They are considered irredeemable and
39:00
Speaker 2: have no chance to ever progress. This is inhabited by
39:03
Speaker 2: Satan and his angels live here and is a place
39:06
Speaker 2: of despair and quote weeping and gnashing of teeth. Now, also,
39:11
Speaker 2: there's no coffee there, so you got to deal with that.
39:16
Speaker 1: Yes, that's that's the primary thing. I think.
39:18
Speaker 2: Actually, well they do that here too, but like you know,
39:21
Speaker 2: it's it's just it gets kind of like amplified there,
39:23
Speaker 2: like it's imagined like you're always tired and there's no coffee,
39:26
Speaker 2: it's worse.
39:27
Speaker 1: So across these various conceptualizations of Christian hell, we see
39:30
Speaker 1: that the Christian God is uh seems to be extremely
39:34
Speaker 1: sensitive about rejection. This guy is I mean, real thin
39:39
Speaker 1: skinned about people like turning away.
39:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's almighty until he thinks you're mad at him.
39:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like friends are off never talking to you again,
39:49
Speaker 1: punishment for you.
39:51
Speaker 2: Oh man, what an interesting way to think about that.
39:54
Speaker 1: I love that you got some real significant attachment issues.
39:58
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
39:58
Speaker 1: All right. We do have one more version of Hell
40:00
Speaker 1: that's important for us to talk about, and that, of
40:02
Speaker 1: course is the most popular and beloved religion that you'll
40:06
Speaker 1: find around the world, which is the Gospel of the
40:08
Speaker 1: Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yes, it's actually not the most popular
40:13
Speaker 1: religion in the world, but it's an important to understand this,
40:16
Speaker 1: all right. So we're not getting into the history and
40:19
Speaker 1: the tenants of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster,
40:23
Speaker 1: but Flying Spaghetti Monster does have Hell in this religion. Sure,
40:27
Speaker 1: in case you didn't know, now, in the Flying Spaghetti
40:30
Speaker 1: Monster tradition, heaven and Hell are very similar for some
40:34
Speaker 1: specific philosophical reasons. Now, in heaven you have a beer
40:38
Speaker 1: volcano and apparently a stripper factory, and I think you
40:42
Speaker 1: choose sexy body type of your choosing whatever that might
40:46
Speaker 1: look like to you. So For some people, it's a
40:48
Speaker 1: bunch of Michael B. Jordan's coming out of the volcano.
40:50
Speaker 1: For some people it's same thing. Else, I'm trying to
40:52
Speaker 1: give it of the celebrity to put in there.
40:54
Speaker 2: You don't need to Michael B. Jordan works for everybody.
40:56
Speaker 2: I think that's a very good point. Yes, it's just
40:59
Speaker 2: Michael Man. It's so handsome, so handsome, it's so charming.
41:02
Speaker 1: It really is just absurdly so all right. Anyway, So
41:06
Speaker 1: that's what Heaven is, but Hell is a beer volcano,
41:10
Speaker 1: except that the beer is stale, and all of the
41:13
Speaker 1: strippers that come out of the stripper factory have venereal diseases,
41:17
Speaker 1: which I guess matters because they're also sex works, sex
41:21
Speaker 1: worts who do more than do stripping, I guess. Anyway,
41:24
Speaker 1: that's the idea of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Heaven and Hell.
41:28
Speaker 1: Both of those sound closer to Hell for me than not.
41:31
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, neither of those sound fun.
41:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, not where my choices would be. But that's that's
41:37
Speaker 1: what's in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Heaven and Hell.
41:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, And honestly, like the reason we wanted to talk
41:41
Speaker 2: about that is because when we were kind of like
41:43
Speaker 2: navigating through you can see how like we can put
41:46
Speaker 2: like a more modern what sounds like an absurd tale
41:50
Speaker 2: around this. But every religion, in every belief system that
41:53
Speaker 2: we covered not and of course we didn't cover all
41:56
Speaker 2: of them. There are lots of versions, lots of different
41:57
Speaker 2: ways to go about it. But the thing about this
41:59
Speaker 2: is that they're different lore. It's different storytelling, it's different
42:03
Speaker 2: mechanisms by which people engage in certain behavior. And that's
42:07
Speaker 2: kind of like the point of all this, right, when
42:09
Speaker 2: we talk about the behavior of people, and we talk
42:12
Speaker 2: about why Hell exists and why we've created Hell, a
42:15
Speaker 2: big part of it is largely for social control. Right.
42:18
Speaker 2: And that's not to say, and I want to be
42:20
Speaker 2: clear about this because I know you and I are
42:22
Speaker 2: we're not spiritual believers. We're believers in science, right, I
42:27
Speaker 2: think that's a thing. So our particular Hell is an
42:29
Speaker 2: anti science world, which you know here we are. But like,
42:33
Speaker 2: largely when you think about this as a general rule, whatever,
42:36
Speaker 2: we're not, like I want to say, we're not denigrating
42:38
Speaker 2: your belief system. We're not trying to disrespect your your
42:42
Speaker 2: belief system, but we have to understand what the function
42:45
Speaker 2: of Hell is on earth when we talk about it,
42:48
Speaker 2: and it's really to control people, right, Lots of these
42:50
Speaker 2: folks believed the best or only way to facilitate human
42:54
Speaker 2: behavior or control it or guide certain behavior was to
42:57
Speaker 2: threaten people with fear, with pain, was so with torture,
43:01
Speaker 2: with eternities of this which is far longer than any
43:05
Speaker 2: crime that landed them there. Like I mentioned before, it
43:07
Speaker 2: was disproportionately punishing somebody for a misdeed they engage in
43:12
Speaker 2: in their life. It's punishing their soul forever for something
43:15
Speaker 2: that happened when they were a teenager. And so I
43:18
Speaker 2: think it's just important to understand a lot of it.
43:20
Speaker 2: And there's historical evidence to demonstrate that some of these
43:23
Speaker 2: stories were created specifically to control people when the Catholic
43:27
Speaker 2: Church was in power, when Christianity took over and like
43:30
Speaker 2: replaced lots of like polytheistic religions. You see this historically
43:34
Speaker 2: happening over and over and over again.
43:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So we've talked about before the idea that
43:41
Speaker 1: like human language is unique and that it allows us
43:46
Speaker 1: to behave with respect to things that are not It
43:49
Speaker 1: allows us to behave with respect to things that have
43:51
Speaker 1: not happened yet, it allows us to behave with respect
43:54
Speaker 1: to things that happened well before we were born. It
43:57
Speaker 1: allows us to behave with respect to arbitrary things, things
44:00
Speaker 1: that we can imagine, and so we can come up
44:03
Speaker 1: with the idea of something like a dragon. We've never
44:05
Speaker 1: seen a dragon, No dragon has ever existed, but we
44:08
Speaker 1: can create that with things like tools of our language.
44:11
Speaker 1: And so language, as a sort of epiphenomenal byproduct of
44:16
Speaker 1: its existence, enables the ability to behave with respect to
44:21
Speaker 1: ideas like there is such a thing as life after
44:26
Speaker 1: life is done, and that is the afterlife, the what
44:29
Speaker 1: happens when we die. Even honestly, the concept of death
44:32
Speaker 1: is something that really only exists because we have language,
44:35
Speaker 1: like things would die, But as far as we know,
44:38
Speaker 1: no animals go around thinking about their death because it
44:42
Speaker 1: means nothing to them. There is the like animals have
44:46
Speaker 1: relationships with other animals, and when those animals are gone,
44:49
Speaker 1: they understand that they're gone, and it seems like they
44:52
Speaker 1: can behave with respect to that. But they don't necessarily
44:54
Speaker 1: walk around like. We have no reasonab believe that they
44:56
Speaker 1: have any conceptualization of their own deaths, and our language
44:59
Speaker 1: give us that for better or for worse, and as
45:02
Speaker 1: a consequence of that, we can then imagine something like
45:05
Speaker 1: what about this hypothetical place that these good or bad
45:09
Speaker 1: things happen, It's heaven and Hell's And why that then
45:12
Speaker 1: might become useful is in the grand experiment of humans
45:16
Speaker 1: joining together to create civilizations and cities and cultures and
45:21
Speaker 1: things of that nature. There was a oh, such a
45:25
Speaker 1: wide variety in the ways that people behave that there
45:28
Speaker 1: was a desire for some people to try and control
45:32
Speaker 1: the flow of that to some extent, and in particular
45:35
Speaker 1: I think where there are some people who would do
45:37
Speaker 1: a lot of harm to other people and do so
45:39
Speaker 1: on purpose. Yeah, and so some attempts to try and
45:42
Speaker 1: rain that sort of thing in. And so one way
45:44
Speaker 1: to do that is to tell you that there is
45:46
Speaker 1: such a thing as like if we don't catch you
45:49
Speaker 1: and punish you, someone will.
45:51
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you'll never escape it, exactly right.
45:54
Speaker 1: You cannot just get live this life doing whatever you
45:56
Speaker 1: want and hurting other people and doing all these harm
46:00
Speaker 1: because like something will have like there is the inescapable
46:03
Speaker 1: consequence of what happens after death, and that way, like
46:06
Speaker 1: we can have systems in place that catch you during
46:08
Speaker 1: your lifetime and try and deal with it that way.
46:11
Speaker 1: But if they don't catch you, then like, don't worry,
46:14
Speaker 1: someone will. And the idea there then being that they
46:17
Speaker 1: can try and influence the behaviors that happen so that
46:21
Speaker 1: they could get that under control in a way that
46:23
Speaker 1: that worked for the powers that be, if you will.
46:26
Speaker 2: Yeah.
46:26
Speaker 1: What becomes tricky in this, though, is the consideration of, like,
46:29
Speaker 1: what do they consider criminal behavior? Because there are ones
46:33
Speaker 1: that I think are relatively easy and black and white
46:35
Speaker 1: ish to agree on, which is like, you are hurting
46:38
Speaker 1: someone in a way that they did not consent to,
46:41
Speaker 1: that they did not want to have happen, and you're
46:43
Speaker 1: causing harm to that person in some capacity. That seems
46:46
Speaker 1: fairly straightforward. Yeah, But then you have other examples where
46:49
Speaker 1: it's like someone who's like I chose to love someone
46:51
Speaker 1: who or I've realized that I love someone who looks
46:54
Speaker 1: very similar to me. They happen to have the same
46:56
Speaker 1: genitalia that I do, they happen to have the same
47:00
Speaker 1: physiological presentation that I do. And and the people who
47:03
Speaker 1: are like, uh no, that's unacceptable, you should be tortured forever.
47:08
Speaker 1: I think many of us look at that and be
47:10
Speaker 1: like but why.
47:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is like, you know, again, that's something that
47:14
Speaker 2: has come up more, I would say, more in a
47:17
Speaker 2: more modern space because of some you know, more conservative
47:21
Speaker 2: leanings and stuff of misinterpretations of the Bible. But I
47:23
Speaker 2: also think it's really important too, Like, I know, we're
47:26
Speaker 2: kind of dogging on this idea of like hell being
47:28
Speaker 2: used as a coercive tool and controlling behavior and like
47:31
Speaker 2: really managing behavior. But the promise of divine reward does
47:34
Speaker 2: the same thing. It does. Yeah, right, It's like you
47:36
Speaker 2: do bad, and you do and this is the bad
47:38
Speaker 2: thing that happens, but if you do good, you get
47:40
Speaker 2: this great thing at the end of it too. So
47:42
Speaker 2: like it's not just that hell is the bad thing.
47:44
Speaker 2: It's it's the dichotomy of hell is bad Heaven is good.
47:48
Speaker 2: We're gonna use both to steer your behavior towards what
47:50
Speaker 2: we want to see and make you avoid those things
47:52
Speaker 2: that we don't want to see.
47:53
Speaker 1: You need the carrot and the stick and not the
47:56
Speaker 1: ad Bam nailed it all, right, We're back. We've been
48:07
Speaker 1: describing essentially why we think there has been this propagation
48:10
Speaker 1: of ideas of hell that have spread around cultures and
48:13
Speaker 1: over time and I think that on the one hand,
48:17
Speaker 1: you have the one of the original formations of this,
48:21
Speaker 1: the idea of both heaven and Hell, as you are
48:23
Speaker 1: just saying, is to facilitate human behavior. I think that
48:26
Speaker 1: the function of this shifted over time because as you
48:29
Speaker 1: started to get into really fervent, zealous commitments to these
48:34
Speaker 1: sort of religions, the function of hell came to instead
48:37
Speaker 1: symbolize something a lot more deeper about like the moral
48:43
Speaker 1: failings of humans more broadly sure, and that allowed it
48:46
Speaker 1: to spread the ideas of like who belonged in Hell
48:49
Speaker 1: and what Hell should and could consist of, so I
48:51
Speaker 1: think to spread to a lot of ideas of human life.
48:54
Speaker 1: And it also kind of weirdly watered it down in
48:57
Speaker 1: some ways too, because you have people who is spouse
49:00
Speaker 1: devout religious leanings, and maybe even our participants in like
49:05
Speaker 1: religious activities, who then we find out later we're also
49:09
Speaker 1: doing these things that are like pretty despicable and deplorable
49:12
Speaker 1: things that they that they behave in and it's not
49:16
Speaker 1: clear if they never actually believed or if they believed
49:19
Speaker 1: that like they could. It's sort of like the whole
49:22
Speaker 1: idea of what was it called where you could like
49:25
Speaker 1: buy forgiveness from the church.
49:27
Speaker 2: Oh, I know what you're talking about, but it's like, uh, absolution.
49:32
Speaker 1: I feel like it was called like indulgences. Yeah, indulgence
49:35
Speaker 1: was that I had to I had to look it up.
49:37
Speaker 1: But this idea that like at some point the church
49:40
Speaker 1: really needed to do fundraising. They were like really struggling,
49:44
Speaker 1: and so they're like, we're going to launch this infomercial
49:47
Speaker 1: where now, rather than repent, all you have to do
49:50
Speaker 1: is buy your redemption card and be on your merry way,
49:54
Speaker 1: and so they're there. Then started to be this way
49:57
Speaker 1: that hell showed up or that Heaven should up really
50:01
Speaker 1: and either version where it was like get out of
50:03
Speaker 1: jail free card, buy it at the church gift store, sure,
50:06
Speaker 1: and you'd be fine. And again sort of watering down
50:10
Speaker 1: the whole idea here, but also just being leveraged in
50:13
Speaker 1: a way that's very functional for those religions, like it
50:15
Speaker 1: actually kind of makes sense in a space where your
50:17
Speaker 1: monetary viability is linked to the significance of hell, like
50:23
Speaker 1: the more terrible Hell sounds, the more you can sell,
50:27
Speaker 1: and the more you can sell those indulgences for yeah, right,
50:30
Speaker 1: So it actually might push extreme views of this because now,
50:34
Speaker 1: the more you can get people to buy into this,
50:36
Speaker 1: the more product you can move.
50:38
Speaker 2: Right right exactly.
50:39
Speaker 1: So, I found this really lovely quote from someone who
50:42
Speaker 1: was just talking about the various conceptualizations of hell, and
50:45
Speaker 1: I thought that it captured so beautifully and so perfectly
50:49
Speaker 1: everything that we talked about, and we could have maybe
50:51
Speaker 1: just said this, and then that would have been the
50:53
Speaker 1: whole episode. H It is quote. On the one hand,
50:56
Speaker 1: it referring to hell shows our desire for justice. If
51:00
Speaker 1: life will not play fair, then we can at least
51:02
Speaker 1: imagine an after life where the wicked and treacherous pay
51:05
Speaker 1: for their crimes while their victims receive relief from earthly torments.
51:10
Speaker 1: On the other hand, houses our hate and tolerance and savagery.
51:14
Speaker 1: It puts on full display our head and desire to
51:17
Speaker 1: be proven superior over others and to punish those who
51:20
Speaker 1: don't conform to our beliefs. End quote. This is from
51:23
Speaker 1: author Kevin Dickinson in one of those places. I was like, Yeah,
51:27
Speaker 1: I think that's that's pretty much it. That is exactly perfect.
51:31
Speaker 1: It is like we like to imagine a place where
51:34
Speaker 1: humans suffer. That's wild. That's wild that we would value
51:38
Speaker 1: something like that that's like, let's really celebrate the idea
51:43
Speaker 1: of suffering and push it not to it's like extreme,
51:46
Speaker 1: but like even past to the extreme into things like
51:49
Speaker 1: internal damnation. And for some of them, it's as simple
51:53
Speaker 1: as as like rejecting your faith, right, Like that's what
51:57
Speaker 1: got you there, and that's just wild to me. And
51:59
Speaker 1: on the other hand, as he said in this quote,
52:02
Speaker 1: I think it does also highlight this desire for there
52:07
Speaker 1: to be some kind of sense of justice in the world,
52:10
Speaker 1: Like why do bad things happen to good people?
52:13
Speaker 2: Right?
52:13
Speaker 1: There is your answer, as you just need this pretend
52:16
Speaker 1: entity of good and bad afterlife things where the bad
52:20
Speaker 1: things that happen to good people will be rewarded in
52:23
Speaker 1: their afterlife versus the good things that happen to bad
52:26
Speaker 1: people they will be punished in their afterlife. Right And
52:29
Speaker 1: were it only so easy? But that is I think
52:33
Speaker 1: a reasonable understanding of that quote is just such a
52:36
Speaker 1: beautiful snapshot of all the things we discussed.
52:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that summarizes it perfectly.
52:41
Speaker 1: Okay, well we need to wrap it up there, so
52:44
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening. This is just our first
52:47
Speaker 1: entry into a several episode long trip we're going to
52:50
Speaker 1: go down into the discussion about hell related topics. I
52:54
Speaker 1: hope that you enjoy what you heard today and in
52:56
Speaker 1: our future halloweeny themed spooky episodes and just all of
52:59
Speaker 1: our episodes. Really, that's what I hope.
53:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're having We're gonna have a blast. It's gonna
53:04
Speaker 2: be a good it's gonna be a good spooky season.
53:06
Speaker 1: Indeed, And if you would like to support what we do,
53:09
Speaker 1: you can join us on Patreon. If you go there,
53:11
Speaker 1: you get add free episodes, early episodes, bonus content, and
53:14
Speaker 1: I will read your name from the list of people
53:16
Speaker 1: who help make our podcast be a podcast. And so
53:19
Speaker 1: thank you so much to Mike, m Megan, Mike T, Justin,
53:23
Speaker 1: Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie. Thank you
53:27
Speaker 1: for being a people.
53:28
Speaker 2: You're the best. You're the best ever.
53:30
Speaker 1: Also, thank you to my team of people without whom
53:32
Speaker 1: I could not make this podcast writing and fact checking
53:35
Speaker 1: from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording with me today, Shane.
53:38
Speaker 2: Hey, thank you for having me.
53:40
Speaker 1: Our social coordinator is Emma Wilson, and our audio engineer
53:44
Speaker 1: is Justin Greenhouse. Thank you Justin for being so awesome
53:47
Speaker 1: always always all right. If you'd like to tell us
53:50
Speaker 1: about any hells that we missed. I did actually deliberately
53:53
Speaker 1: leave out some versions of hell that were like crazy
53:55
Speaker 1: long and convoluted from other religious traditions that I found,
53:59
Speaker 1: but we be happy to share those, So feel free
54:01
Speaker 1: and write in. You can tell us something that we
54:03
Speaker 1: got wrong. If you'd like to gently correct us. We
54:05
Speaker 1: appreciate constructive feedback. That's always good. You can email us
54:09
Speaker 1: directly to tell us about those things at info at
54:11
Speaker 1: wwdwwdpodcast dot com, and you can also reach us on
54:15
Speaker 1: the social media platforms as I said, like subscribe, leave
54:19
Speaker 1: about a rating and review, and just go tell someone
54:21
Speaker 1: that you know, you know. I just recently had someone
54:24
Speaker 1: who is like, hey, I have a really long drive
54:26
Speaker 1: ahead of me. I don't have anything to listen to.
54:28
Speaker 1: Do you have any recommendations? And I was like, my podcast,
54:30
Speaker 1: that's where it's at. Yeah, actually I recommend lots of things.
54:35
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but you, dear listener, could recommend our podcast
54:38
Speaker 1: and that would sound much less lame than our hosts
54:41
Speaker 1: recommending their own podcast. Right, But okay, I think that
54:45
Speaker 1: that is what I have to say about all of that.
54:47
Speaker 1: Is there anything I'm missing? Before we transition to recommendations.
54:50
Speaker 2: No, I think that's I think we're ready.
54:52
Speaker 1: Let's recommend some things. Yeah, we recommendations.
55:03
Speaker 2: I'm gonna recommend to align with our spookiest of seasons.
55:07
Speaker 2: A scary movie. Nice, And that scary movie is a
55:10
Speaker 2: movie called twenty eight years later. So I am somebody
55:15
Speaker 2: who really enjoys a good zombie movie.
55:17
Speaker 1: Me too.
55:17
Speaker 2: Twenty eight days later, scared me to smithereens. That thing
55:21
Speaker 2: was so scary. There's nothing scarier than fast mad zombies.
55:26
Speaker 2: And there was just in the way it was shot,
55:27
Speaker 2: was gritty and gross and weird and just it was just,
55:31
Speaker 2: you know, I don't like that they made environmentalists the villains. Yeah,
55:35
Speaker 2: you know, it was like the environmentalists that were the problem.
55:38
Speaker 2: But anyway, but they also made the military of the
55:40
Speaker 2: villains too, so I guess there is balance there anyway.
55:43
Speaker 2: Twenty eight days later, excellent movie. Twenty eight months later,
55:47
Speaker 2: fantastic sequel. I think they did a really good job.
55:49
Speaker 2: Twenty eight weeks later, whatever it is, Yeah, you're right,
55:51
Speaker 2: twenty eight weeks later.
55:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
55:52
Speaker 2: I was like, I was like, it should be twenty
55:54
Speaker 2: this one should have been twenty eight months.
55:55
Speaker 1: But it's not. They skipped a unit.
55:57
Speaker 2: They skipped a unit, but here we are with twenty
55:59
Speaker 2: eight years later, and it is a continuation of that story,
56:02
Speaker 2: you know. And it starts off with the survivors of
56:05
Speaker 2: the rage virus that took hold of England. They are
56:09
Speaker 2: quarantined to the island and so it's kind of a
56:12
Speaker 2: new space where they're really looking at kind of like
56:15
Speaker 2: what happens in the aftermath and how do people survive?
56:18
Speaker 2: And it stars Jody Komer, Aaron Taylor Johnson, and Ralph
56:21
Speaker 2: Fines and incredible, beautifully shot, super interesting story, really talking
56:28
Speaker 2: about how people have learned to survive in the wake
56:31
Speaker 2: of something really serious. And I thought it was a
56:34
Speaker 2: really fun, really interesting movie. I don't think it was
56:37
Speaker 2: as good as the other two, but I think it
56:38
Speaker 2: was still really good and a worthy entry, especially because
56:41
Speaker 2: director Danny Boyle, who directed the first one, is back
56:45
Speaker 2: for this one, so it's the original director, which is
56:47
Speaker 2: cool too, So that's great.
56:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely am interested in seeing it. I also
56:52
Speaker 1: liked the first two and tend to love zombie movies
56:54
Speaker 1: more broadly, so cool. Good recommendation.
56:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of fun, all right.
56:58
Speaker 1: I'm recommending a TV show. This is on the Apple
57:00
Speaker 1: TV Plus service, but man, that service is just crushing
57:05
Speaker 1: out the TV shows lately. This one is called Shrinking.
57:09
Speaker 1: The stars Jason Siegel, Harrison Ford and then just a
57:13
Speaker 1: variety of other really gifted and talented actors. For people
57:17
Speaker 1: who are fans of Ted Lasso, I could see them
57:19
Speaker 1: really latching onto this. So it's essentially about more or
57:23
Speaker 1: less three therapists who are talking to behavioral therapists who
57:27
Speaker 1: work together, and the story picks up with one of
57:30
Speaker 1: them whose wife had died within the last year, and
57:34
Speaker 1: then him basically not dealing with that and sort of
57:39
Speaker 1: just devolving into a giant mess and then sort of
57:42
Speaker 1: climbing out of that. So right now there are two
57:44
Speaker 1: seasons out. I'm given to understand that the third season
57:47
Speaker 1: will come out in twenty twenty six. But it is
57:50
Speaker 1: a just a very it's a very funny show, also
57:54
Speaker 1: just very heartwarming and lots of really lovely character moments
57:57
Speaker 1: with people just being good to each other. So yeah,
58:00
Speaker 1: I very much enjoyed it, strong recommend It's again streaming
58:02
Speaker 1: on Apple TV Plus and it's called Shrinking. Love that cool,
58:06
Speaker 1: all right. So that's twenty eight years later in shrinking,
58:08
Speaker 1: and then versions of Hell. This is probably the last
58:11
Speaker 1: time we're going to plan to spend a lot of
58:12
Speaker 1: time on Hell, but maybe we'll come back to it.
58:14
Speaker 1: Who knows. We do whatever we want.
58:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is our show, exactly supported by you the listener.
58:20
Speaker 1: But I think that's what I have to say today,
58:22
Speaker 1: So we will let you go about your spooky day,
58:24
Speaker 1: your spooky season, your spooky week, what have you. And yeah,
58:28
Speaker 1: that's it. So anything you'd like to add before we
58:30
Speaker 1: sign off, Nope, that covers it, ram what we do.
58:34
Speaker 2: You can worry more among this and other episodes by
58:37
Speaker 2: going to WWD WWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
58:42
Speaker 2: and we hope you have an awesome day.
59:00
Speaker 1: B