Latest / Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh / Turning Life Challenges into Strength

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Turning Life Challenges into Strength · Chatting with The Experts with Paula Okonneh

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Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Chatting with the Experts
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with me, your host, Paula Okonneh, where I speak with women from Africa, from
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the Caribbean, and in the diaspora.
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These are professional women, these are entrepreneurs who have been
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very successful at what they do, and our mission jointly is to educate,
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empower, and inspire women globally.
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Today, we are gonna be talking about how from adversity comes strength,
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and from strength comes healing.
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My guest is Delores McPherson, and I'll tell you a bit about her.
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She has worked in mental health and with children and families for over 25 years
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and holds professional qualifications in psychology, clinical supervision, trauma
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focused intervention counseling and
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neurolinguistic programming, also known as NLP.
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She's also an accredited member of the British Association for
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Counseling and Psychotherapy, BACP.
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That means she's in England.
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She's a proud mom of two children aged 38 and 28 and you see me looking
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surprised 'cause when she comes on the show, you'll be surprised as well.
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She looks so good and she's a loving grandmother of a 15-year-old grandson.
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That was my biggest shock.
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She has also faced her own personal challenges when her younger son was
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diagnosed with a life-threatening illness at the age of 15.
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It marked the beginning of a long traumatic journey.
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Over the last 13 years, Delores has had to juggle demanding work
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responsibilities while at the same time navigating deeply emotional and
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trying times in her personal life.
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I've said a bit about her, but she'll tell you even more.
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When she joins us in a few seconds.
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Welcome to Chatting with the Experts, Delores.
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Hi Paula.
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Thank you so much for saying yes.
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I never take it for granted when I have guests because there's
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so many other things you could have done, but you said yes.
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So thank you for being a guest.
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You're welcome.
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I appreciate it.
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Oh.
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I said a little bit about you because I always have the best guests.
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The bios are always so impressive.
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I'm like, oh my word, where do I start?
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Where do I end?
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So I know I didn't say everything.
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Is there anything I left out that you'd like to talk about or tell the
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audience before we jump into the show?
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I suppose it's really about, you know, in the center of all of this, God.
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God's in the center really.
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In all of the years I've worked in mental health as you, you know, rightly said
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that there's been some really challenging times, but prayer has been so important
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part of my life and I think that's, you know, all I would really wanted
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to add at this time, at this stage.
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Mm-hmm.
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Oh yes.
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Without God, where will we be?
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Where will I be?
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I know that for sure.
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Same here.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So, you worked for over 25 years in the mental health profession with children.
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Let's talk about that, your experience and how did you get into it?
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Did the profession and, you know, what's your experience there?
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Yeah, it's quite interesting and that's a really good question because, you know,
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I started my studying later in life.
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My father passed away in 2002 and I just started to do my psychology degree.
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And then it was, I was coming to the end of a really difficult relationship
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that I was in, and I remember prior to starting the psychology course,
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I remember going to the open day.
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They do open days in the universities.
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And the lecturer that was facilitating said, I remember him clearly, and
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he said, if you are in a rocky relationship, by the end of this three
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year degree, you will end because of the growth and the development and the
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learning that you'll have in oneself.
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And that's exactly what happened.
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And you know what that self-learning enabled me to do is build my
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self-esteem, build my confidence, recognize that actually I do
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have self-worth and confidence.
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And so it's what got me into it really.
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So my own personal grief, but also coming to the end of a relationship
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that wasn't healthy for me at that time.
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So from there I went into, I decided I wanted to do
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counseling as a qualification.
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So went into that room after the psychology and then that's been,
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it got into the voluntary sector, worked in different VSOs and also
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within the statutory NHS, and that's where I currently am working
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at the moment in mental health.
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Wow.
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Wow.
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I'm sorry to hear about your dad passing.
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I know loss, grief.
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Yeah.
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It's difficult.
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It's a long journey.
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It is.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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A long journey.
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Yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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I noticed that you work with children and family.
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Why children and families?
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Why not?
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You know, teens, young adults, older adults?
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Yeah.
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Any reason?
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Absolutely.
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And I think it's really important, you know, when we work with the
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entire family, it's the systemic issues and sometimes there's the
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intergenerational trauma that is just a thread that goes all the way through.
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So if I work with just for instance, a young person.
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They're going into the same family home, they're going back into the same
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environment where there could be issues.
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There's adversities.
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So working with the entire family unit just enables everyone to come
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from a different lens and understand and acknowledge and take their own
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responsibility and accountability.
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I think it's really important that will enable the change , enable the empower
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and enable the environment to change.
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You can't just leave it to one person, one child, or one parent to change.
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It's the entire environment.
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I agree.
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And what ages are the children?
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Are they, you know, like from, I mean from four, from seven till 18?
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How, what age range do you...
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So , in terms of within the NHS where I work, it's from about four to up to 18.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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And then parents will get invited to sessions as well.
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Okay.
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Okay, so you know mental health, I mean, between when you started and you said, I
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think it was shortly after your dad passed or while, or during the time he passed?
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So that was 2002, and now mental health has become, you know, more mainstream.
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We can talk about it a bit more, but is there still, do you find there's
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still a stigma or is it still taboo?
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Or how has that changed in between the time that you started and now?
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Well, in comparison when I started in 2002, it's such a taboo, particularly
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in the African-Caribbean community.
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Mm-hmm.
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And so, you know, no one wants to talk about their business outside of the door.
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Everyone brushes things under the carpet and it's almost like, don't
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my business outside of the door.
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Yeah.
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What you doing that for?
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You know?
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Yeah.
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And I suppose it's over the time.
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We're now in 2025 and you know, it has changed, but we still have a way to go.
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So I even think about going into churches and talking about mental health, going
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into, you know, schools and going into other agencies so that we can ensure
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that mental health is being spoken about.
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Mental health is spoken about within the home because where else would we recognize
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changes in our children or in our parents?
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You know, as far as I'm concerned, we all suffer from low mood without a doubt.
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However, it's how we manage to get out of that low mood.
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Does it then escalate?
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Into, you know, depression, clinical depression, or,
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you know, is that low mood?
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Let me put some things into place.
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Like, let's go to the gym.
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Let's go along family walks together because all of those things help
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with the, you know, stimulating the endorphins in the brain.
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And so it is important that we talk, we talk, we talk, we talk
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about what's going on, changes.
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We have to recognize that in our young people because otherwise
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the schools or you know, other agencies don't do it for us.
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We're the first point of contact as parents.
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Let's think about how we can support our children and young people.
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You know, I've got a thing as it's the first five years of a young person's life.
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So the attachment, the communication, how the children see, how the
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parents interact with each other.
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The first five years are important because it shapes the next, the
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last 70 years of someone's life.
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That's so real, really, really real.
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Yes, yes, yes.
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And you said, you know, the first five years of a child's life is so important
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because it affects the next 70 years.
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And, you know, you, you mentioned that you noticed that among African
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and Caribbean communities, and this is worldwide, not just in England.
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'cause I know you're in England, you know, mental, mental health
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is regarded as a taboo or stigma.
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Yeah.
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Because, especially when you said the word 70 years, I know that as a
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people, as a race, even if we are not from the Caribbean or from Africa.
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But you know, like I know even among African American, we
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believe in extended families.
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So we have, you know, multi-generations, I mean, in one family.
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So how do you find in your work, you know, that this.
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How do you address that?
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Because you know, most size is not just the child or the children and
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their fam and their mom and dad.
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You have aunties, uncles, and then you have the grandparents.
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Yeah.
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How do you, you know, deal with that?
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Culture is very, very important.
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When I'm doing assessments for the service that I work with, it's
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important to, you know, include culture.
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For me, I think about the village.
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As a village.
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We work together, you know, the elders and, and the elders
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compared to the youngest.
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So it's really important that if a young person's not bringing in a parent,
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they're bringing in an older sister, that is fine also, you know, because
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it's about the systemic way of thinking.
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It's a village.
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And even, you know, I'm a manager within the NHS and even within my team,
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I say to them, talk about culture.
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We don't always get it right if you don't understand, ask.
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So talk about, you know, what are the, you know, there's
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something called a social graces.
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And within the social graces, it talks about culture, it talks
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about race, identity, religion.
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All of those things are really important for an individual's identity.
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If we leave our culture, that's part of our identity.
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That's minus something of a young person.
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So talk about it, village mentality.
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So, you know, somebody said, I think the first time I heard they
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said was Hillary Clinton, that is a village that raises a child.
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But she said, of course that comes from Africa.
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And it's true.
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I mean, we grew up with, you know, grandparents, sometimes
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even great-grandparents influencing what you did.
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Absolutely.
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Extended families were just part of the family.
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Your grandma, her mom, her uncle, a brother.
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You do something by the time you get home it's reached, you know it's
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already at home and they know what has happened and they're waiting for you.
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So in other words, what you're saying is that you talk about culture and embrace
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culture and you know, educate too because you know, that's education that sometimes
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or many times changes the mindset.
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Yeah.
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We were brought up in a culture mean, I was brought up in a culture where
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feelings weren't talked about, you know?
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Yeah.
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The only feelings my mom used to always say, if you can't hear, you'll
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feel, and it was a physical smack.
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Right, right.
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People express their feelings.
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Yeah, it's very important.
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And sometimes, you know, even the word anger, when we about the word anger
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and you know, for particularly some of our young males that come through
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and the schools will put you in the referral, oh, he gets really angry.
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Angry is an okay emotion.
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It's an emotion but it's how we manage to regulate that anger.
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Yes.
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And so it's giving the young person the tools to talk about, I am angry right now.
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But what are the tools for you to regulate that?
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And that's my job to ensure that they are able to manage all of
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those emotions, but talk about the emotions, not just I'm angry or I'm
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rage for, or I'm, you know, because sometimes those are the labels that
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get impressed onto these young people.
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And so it's important that, you know, they talk about these labels, they talk
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about their emotions, and you know, not to be called, oh, you are just sensitive.
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It's not about sensitive.
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It's about I want to be accountable for my feelings and my emotions.
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So let's talk about one or two of those tools, because yes, are young males
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are stigmatized, I wanna say with, you know, that angry label and dealing
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with that and the appropriate manner can take away some of that, you know,
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stigma, I wanna say, or, you know, the negative association you see a
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young male and it's like, oh my gosh.
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Yeah.
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If you get to know him, you may know the reason why.
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Yeah.
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So what are some of those tools?
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So some of those tools are that you just identified getting to know
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that young person because sometimes these young people don't feel heard.
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So what are some of the, you know, reframing some of the questions.
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Don't say, oh, you are angry.
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What's happening for you right now?
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You know, because often it's from zero to a hundred quite quickly.
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Let's think back from zero to 10 what's going on there from zero to 20.
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Break it down so that they can understand that actually, yes, it was
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that thing that happened two weeks ago that I've just built up over time
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and now I've exploded and it's being called you're rageful, you're angry.
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So it's really listening, talking, communicating, understanding that
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young people thinking about what adversities they have may have been
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through in life at that time so far.
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You know, they could be 16, 17.
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We dunno what their life story is, so let's think about that.
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Let's talk to them about that.
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Really highlight their strengths.
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Sometimes it's, you are negative, you are this, you are that,
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but what are your strengths?
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What are your protective factors?
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What, what do you want to do when you, you know, get older?
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Who knows?
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I'm still thinking about what do I need to do when I get older?
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But a young person, you know, sometimes we're asked that question, what do
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you wanna be when you are older?
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I dunno, you know, but let's work with that.
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Let's unpick that.
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Let's do, I don't know, some sort of support, a linear timeline.
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They're some of the things, they're your qualities really highlight
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qualities rather than staying on onto to negatives all the time because
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that's probably what they hear all the time at school and elsewhere
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that causes them to get really angry.
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No one listens.
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No one listens.
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Yeah.
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You are so right.
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Yeah.
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You are so right.
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Many just want to be seen.
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Yeah.
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And recognize that you are someone.
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You are important.
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You're important to me, and so
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yeah.
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Love yourself.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Talking about young men, young boys, boys, you mentioned the personal story.
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Your son, your 15-year-old son was diagnosed with an illness and a
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life threatening disease actually.
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Let's talk about that because I know that has kind of influenced you, you know, what
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you do and the way you deal with trauma.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So my youngest son now is 28.
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And so at age 15, I can remember it to the day.
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And he used to go football practice.
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So he was a Saturday evening, afternoon, and picked him up from football
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practice and I, he looked, he said, mom, I feel really, really tired.
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More tired than usual.
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And when I looked around at his, his eyes, the whites of his eyes were really yellow.
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Oh my gosh.
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And I was like, I didn't notice that before.
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Anyway, that was the Saturday, Sunday he seemed to pick up.
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And on the Monday, went to school and he came home.
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He said, mom, I was really nauseous at school and actually vomited.
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And his eyes, the whites of eyes are still yellow.
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And I was like, oh my goodness, I'm taking you to the doctor.
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So didn't go to school on the Wednesday or the Tuesday.
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Took him to the , you know, just the local gp and, he said, oh, we're
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gonna have to send for blood test.
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We're gonna have to do this.
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But he looks fine.
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He is a healthy lad.
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Looks fine.
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So he went to school on the Wednesday and he came home and he still felt unwell,
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was still waiting for the results to go come back for the blood test from the gp.
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And I said, I was talking to a friend at work actually.
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She said, it's your baby, take him to the hospital.
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Take him to A & E. So the Thursday I got home from work on Wednesday.
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I said, look, if you don't feel well, I'm gonna take you
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to the hospital on Thursday.
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He didn't feel well overnight.
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So I said, right, we'll go in on the Thursday morning, which we did.
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And oh my goodness, that was just a, well wind took him to the hospital,
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they'd done blood tests and they kept him in hospital immediately.
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All of these blood levels were really, really high.
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And it transpired that he had a liver disease just out of the blue.
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And what they called it was autoimmune liver disease.
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So he was transferred to a hospital that was quite far away, but
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there was the well-renowned for the liver, in best in Europe.
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So I thought I want the best for my son.
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So he was transferred there.
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And he was in the hospital for about three weeks and doing
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tests, after test, after test.
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And that was age 15.
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From age 15, he was going into his year 11, taking all of his exams.
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He actually missed one of the GCSC because he'd been in hospital.
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Anyway, from there on, he was on medication after medication.
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So that was 2012.
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In 2014, we started to go to the bathroom quite regularly.
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And it was, you know, it was regular.
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Like sometimes he was going up to 4, 5, 6 times a day.
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Wow.
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Then he increased, and he was then diagnosed with another autoimmune disease,
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which was called autoimmune colitis.
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So he was diagnosed with colitis as well.
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So he had the two autoimmune diseases.
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So that was 17, he got diagnosed with that 2014.
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Then just went on and on, up and down the hospital, outpatient
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appointments there was check in.
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And then one time in 2019, 1 of the outpatient appointments,
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they said, well, it looks as though your, the medication isn't working and.
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You're gonna have to have a liver transplant.
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And it was just out of the blue, like
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17?
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Like that at, so that would've been, he was 20 by then.
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Okay.
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Oh my God.
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20 years by then.
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And it was just like a normal conversation you and I was having
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night now was an outpatient appointment and the consultant just said that it.
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My heart dropped.
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His heart dropped because we didn't expect that.
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We just thought, okay, he's on medication.
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Things are working.
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We're just plodding along.
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And they said just that in one of the consultant appointments.
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And we both looked at each other like in shock.
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I didn't know what to do.
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He didn't know what to do.
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We came out of that appointment and we just hugged each other.
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And just tears just came down because I was like, God, why can't I just
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take all this pain away from my son?
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Give it to me.
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Yeah.
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Let me have his pain.
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Let me have everything that he's going for.
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Because all of his prime years, he's been in and out of hospital.
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Yes.
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Oh.
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Even now as you're talking, I can see it's emotional.
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It is.
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Yeah,
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it is.
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It's hard, huh?
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It's, and that was 2019, in the June of 2019.
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And yet to go for a series of appointments, to check in if he was
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suitable actually for a liver transplant.
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And he was.
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Then on December,
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it was quite interesting because on that day I'd invited some friends round and
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one of the friends that I'd invited round, it was just like a pre-Christmas dinner.
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One of the friends that I'd invited around, she was a hard prayer.
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She prayed.
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She prayed, she prayed, and some people canceled and some people
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didn't attend, but I believe who was there was meant to be there.
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Mm-hmm.
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And the person that I don't really answer.
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I'm silent or I'm like, oh, can't bother, let it drop.
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But my, you know, his phone, my son's phone there was, he'd actually
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left it on the table and he was upstairs talking to friends and I
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picked it up at one stage and I saw a private number call coming through.
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I'm like, oh, private number, and it went off.
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And then the person started ringing.
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I looked at my phone and the private number came on my phone.
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I'm like, this isn't... this
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important.
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This is important.
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So I rang, I picked up and they said, is that Ms. McPherson?
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Yes.
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We're trying to get hold of Kieran.
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We have a liver.
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Wow.
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And they've been trying to get hold of us for at least half an hour.
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She said he needs to come to the hospital now.
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No preparation, nothing to, you know, no warning.
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Just come right down.
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Well, I understand.
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I mean, these things have to be done immediately.
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Yeah.
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And when there's a match, yes, because you know from being him, being on the
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list for as soon as the match comes about, the calls just come through.
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Mm-hmm.
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So they sent an ambulance and we had to go to the ambulance and it was,
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you know, they had to do blue lights.
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We needed to get there as soon as possible.
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I tell you my, in my heart's beating now, my heart was beating so much.
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We just hugged and prayed and hugged and prayed and... when I said to
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you that, you know, the friend that I invited, she's the prayer.
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So when the call came through, we just, everyone was there.
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We just went in the circle.
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Everyone was crying and we were praying.
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My friend was praying and praying.
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We started ringing people saying prayers, prayers, prayers.
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'cause Kieran's got his... We need to go one... went to the hospital.
24:10
So we got to the hospital and oh it's must, I'm really shivering now.
24:14
You are still thinking about it, you know, reliving the moment.
24:17
Yes.
24:17
My oldest son was there, his brother and everyone just came round.
24:22
And then, yes, he was in hospital and then he was in preparation.
24:28
They prepared him.
24:29
We prayed, and then there was about 10 of us around him praying.
24:34
Then he went down for the deliver operation.
24:37
He was in there for about seven hours in the operation.
24:41
Wow.
24:42
Yeah, we all stayed at the hospital.
24:45
It was quite interesting 'cause within that hospital they have a Costa coffee.
24:48
So we all took home in the corner of Costa, within the hospital and to wait
24:54
for him to come out of, so he actually went down about 1:00 AM So then he came
25:00
out about eight or nine in the morning.
25:03
Yeah.
25:03
Wow.
25:06
And of course I know you were there.
25:09
Your prayer warriors were there with you, and God was there with you.
25:17
And today he's 28.
25:20
28.
25:21
And how's he doing?
25:24
He is doing really, really well.
25:27
Yeah.
25:27
He is doing well.
25:30
It is really interesting when you look back at photographs of him early
25:34
2019, you know, the depart of 2018.
25:40
You could see how unwell he was...
25:44
in comparison to now.
25:46
In comparison to now.
25:48
Wow.
25:49
I tell you.
25:50
And so praise God.
25:53
Right?
25:54
Praise God.
25:54
Yes.
25:55
Yes.
25:55
I'm just looking at you.
25:58
Yeah.
25:58
And thinking, I know the heartache to see a child unwell.
26:04
Yeah.
26:04
And you know when it's a matter of life and death.
26:07
'cause I've lived through that with one of my children.
26:12
And so what that does is make you appreciate every single day, you
26:17
know when you wake up and they're with you, you're like, you know what?
26:21
I can't take this for granted.
26:23
I can't say, oh, I'm getting old.
26:25
Because every time you look at the child, you realize this was God's
26:31
grace that this child is here, and every day the child is still here.
26:36
You know what I mean?
26:37
Every day.
26:38
Nothing but His grace.
26:41
So amazing.
26:43
Wow.
26:43
Yeah.
26:43
So amazing.
26:44
What an amazing story about personal resilience and personal motivation.
26:50
And so what's his name?
26:52
Kieran.
26:53
Aaron?
26:54
Kieran.
26:55
Kieran.
26:56
Kieran.
26:56
Yeah.
26:57
Wow.
26:58
What a story about Kieran.
27:00
I'm so happy to know that he's Well, and as you say, you can see the
27:03
difference between 2019 and 2025.
27:05
Yeah.
27:06
Yeah.
27:06
Praise God for that.
27:09
Yeah.
27:09
Yeah.
27:09
And so before we wrap up, I wanna ask how has that impacted not just your
27:14
personal life, but how you operate in your professional life now with
27:20
children and families, especially when it comes to mental health and trauma?
27:24
Because that's trauma you lived through.
27:26
It's traumatic.
27:27
Yeah.
27:27
And you know, Paula, I think you said the words about gratefulness, yeah.
27:32
But also thinking about everyone's adversities are so different.
27:36
Mm-hmm.
27:36
And they may look at me as a professional, say she's got it all together.
27:40
She's all well put together, but you don't know what's happening behind the doors.
27:46
And everyone's behind the door story is so different, but
27:50
so meaningful to themselves.
27:53
Because we all go through adversities.
27:55
We all do.
27:56
Yes.
27:57
But for me, it's about getting through that door and the
28:00
gratefulness and appreciation of life.
28:04
Yes, yes, yes.
28:06
And I like how, you know, we spoke earlier on, and when you're coming onto this
28:10
show, you said one of the things you wanna talk about is from adversity comes
28:14
strength, and from strength comes healing.
28:18
Yeah.
28:18
So I know that, you know, that was personal.
28:21
You're talking from the heart because from this adversity,
28:25
strength and healing has come.
28:27
Absolutely.
28:27
Yeah.
28:28
Yes.
28:28
Yeah, absolutely.
28:31
Wow.
28:32
Never look at, you know, they say you can't judge a book by the cover.
28:36
You can't look at someone's appearance and think they have it all together.
28:39
'cause no one does.
28:41
Absolutely.
28:41
I agree.
28:42
So, if anyone would like to get in touch with you, Delores, how can they find you?
28:48
How can they get in touch with you?
28:50
I guess online or do you have a website?
28:54
Yeah, my website is being relaunched, so that will come.
28:58
But on Instagram, I'm under mymindmatters_uk.
29:06
I like that.
29:06
mymindmatters_uk.
29:09
I love it.
29:11
Yeah, because everybody's mind does matter.
29:14
Absolutely.
29:16
Yes.
29:16
Yes.
29:17
And are you on LinkedIn as well?
29:19
Of course on LinkedIn under Delores McPherson.
29:22
Delores McPherson.
29:24
Yeah.
29:24
And for those of you who joined me today and those who will be watching
29:28
this later on, I wanna say if you'd like to be a guest on this show
29:33
Chatting with the Experts, please reach out to me on my website,
29:37
which is chattingwiththeexperts.com.
29:40
Similarly to Delores, I'm on LinkedIn.
29:43
Just look for Paula Okonneh there, and I do have a business page
29:46
just Chatting with the Experts.
29:49
I am on Instagram and my handle there is at chat_experts_podcast.
29:58
I'm on Facebook as Paula Okonneh and as Chatting with the Experts,
30:02
and I am also on YouTube.
30:05
We have a YouTube channel, so if you'd like to be a guest and you've got a
30:12
story or you have a mission like mine, which is to inspire, educate, and
30:18
motivate women globally, reach out to me on those channels, and you too can be
30:27
as wonderful as Delores has been.
30:30
As she says, from adversity comes strength, and from strength comes healing.
30:38
Thank you, Delores, for joining us today, and please for all who
30:42
joined us today, please stay, stay, stay back so that you can have a
30:45
one-on-one conversation with Delores.
30:47
There's so much more that we could talk about, but 'cause of time we couldn't.
30:51
Thank you, Delores.
30:53
Paula, take care.