Latest / Zen Community of Oregon Dharma Talks / Freedom from the Disease of the Mind - Hogen, Roshi

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Freedom from the Disease of the Mind - Hogen, Roshi · Zen Community of Oregon Dharma Talks

• 0:00
  Jomon: Hello and welcome. This is the Zen Community of Oregon, making the teachings of the Buddhadharma accessible to support your practice. New episodes air every week.
• 0:27
  Hogen: I take refuge in the Buddha. I take refuge in the Dharma. I take refuge in the Sangha. Kind of transcendental values. Good evening.
• 0:39
  Thank you all for being here. I've been gone for a couple of weeks. Two weeks ago, Chosen, me, and some other of the ordained people went to Hawaii, to Honolulu, to the So to Zen Buddhist Association meeting. And it was like two or three days full of sessions morning, afternoon. We had a little time off in the evening, which was nice.
• 1:04
  But it was a group of mostly local local Sangha people and people, priests and people from around the country and around the world. There's a big contingent from Italy and a big contingent from Japan and then people from all over The States. So it was a very rich time. Got to meet and connect with lots of other peers and also got to see how different sanghas practice. The practice in Hawaii especially on the Big Island, you know, it's was very influenced by the Japanese who came over before World War two and really were very influential in all of Hawaii.
• 1:44
  And so that practice has a much more Japanese flavor even still after all these years than ours does. It's a much more community centered practice. We have a community centered practice here. But there, you know, Taiko, singing with baikal baikal, with bells, loss of feasts and dancing, ball dancing and things is an integral part, or maybe it is the part, the essence of those Sangha's activities. And the things that we talk about here, the chant that we're going to mention this evening, Affirming Faith and Mind, that talks about the the the the essential nature of reality isn't isn't part of the isn't part of the dialogue there.
• 2:34
  It's just a very different flavor. So lots of people were involved and, you know, lots of handmade gifts. We had all sorts of handmade lathes. The way that they do that is they make them out of ribbons now. So you can make you can spend, you know, three months making delays for 150 people, and they're all fresh and bright and beautiful, and you can take them home with you versus the flowers, which are so transient.
• 3:01
  So we we went there, and, you know, had meaningful connections, especially some people that were working with Onchin and Bancho, who are now in Japan right now at two training monasteries in Japan, very different practice there. And then last weekend, Myoyu and Kosho were doing a retreat on loving kindness and spaciousness at the monastery, so Chozin and I went square dancing. We've been square dancing for thirty years, and I highly encourage you all to go square dancing. To do it at a high level, you've got to learn the lessons, but the square dancing this last weekend, it's like a hundred and two hundred and twenty calls, idiosyncratic called together at high speed. So it's, you know, it keeps you very alert.
• 3:57
  And unfortunately, we're beginning to age out. I chose this 80, so it's hard for 80 year olds to keep up with 50 year olds. So it's the nature of things. But we do our best. And now we're back.
• 4:13
  So we've been working on this ongoing on this chant, Affirming Faith in Mind. And I'm just curious, have been all kinds of talks people have heard, we just chatted it earlier this evening. Any particular points that people are interested in or any particular things that are unclear that you'd like
• 4:31
  Hogen: me to talk a little bit about?
• 4:39
  Hogen: It's on page something in your book, if you're interested. Page 30. I say that because I figured that most of you who've been around have been hearing different talks on this, so I don't wanna just reiterate something somebody else said. But if nobody has something, I'm happy to Jonathan, just get the microphone. Two Jonathans, connect,
• 5:10
  Hogen: I find this poem to be quite beautiful and intellectually stimulating and to be a pretty good description of some of the states of mind that happen in practice. And I'm not sure I connect with how it's supposed to be helpful on the front end of practice.
• 5:28
  Hogen: Mhmm.
• 5:28
  Hogen: Sometimes it's been talked about here as like a summary of some forms of practice. And, yeah, I'm wondering pragmatically what you would take from it and what you would use from it to explain Sure. The practice itself.
• 5:48
  Hogen: And if I understand you, you mean what what in terms of getting down to method, how does this affect method? Uh-huh. Okay. Let me just kind of hold that and see if anything else.
• 6:09
  Hogen: Evan Hogan, good evening again, and thank you for leading practice tonight. I just wanted to throw it out there, kinda crossed my mind, because it comes up so often in that particular poem. What's your take or perspective on non duality as we practice it and understand it in this tradition?
• 6:30
  Hogen: Okay. Alright. I'm glad it's all clear to you everybody then. Great. So the first line of this chant, the great way is not difficult for those who do not pick and choose.
• 6:53
  The great way is not difficult when we're not conflicted. The great way is not difficult when we're not in turmoil. The great way is not difficult when we're not fighting ourselves. The great way is not difficult. We see a really big picture.
• 7:07
  Actually goes it says something very different than the first noble truth. First noble truth of Buddhism, anybody who's taken religion one zero one, they talk about Buddhism, they say Buddhism has four noble truths. What's the first?
• 7:21
  Hogen: There is suffering.
• 7:22
  Hogen: There is suffering. And I always think the best way to translate that is not that everybody is in agony all the time, but every human life's got problems. You know, there are problems. Everybody in this room has got problems. You have health problems, relationship problems, financial problems, know, and the problems just keep cascading.
• 7:42
  It doesn't matter how old you are, you just get more and more experience with more and more kinds of problems. So, on one hand we have our regular experience. The grey way is not difficult. The grey way is very difficult. Human You know, beings are very difficult and this this chance says it's not.
• 8:03
  So that's the first the first interesting point I think in terms of practice. So what how can how can we put those two together? And so every every personally, feel that life is full of questions. It's full of places to investigate. You know, it's not full of hard facts.
• 8:30
  It's full of hard fact and what else is true? Hard fact and what else is true? What what's the the space around it? What's underneath the the fact with the the the sense the feeling, the sensation, the position? So, from my vantage point, you know, all life is basically, well, we meet this particular circumstance, we meet this particular person, we meet this particular difficulty or challenge and what else is true?
• 8:59
  What else is true? What else is true? What else is true? How do we meet things without negating them and looking beyond them? So in a way that's what this channel is all about.
• 9:10
  It's all about, okay, our lives are we've got problems, you know. And if you don't have problems, congratulations, you're not here. But our lives have problems. So how can we work with the problems of our lives in such a way that they're not problems? That's the that's the what the whole the whole sutra is about.
• 9:32
  How do we work with with this crazy relative changing world in a way that is flowing and fluid and that is kind of lively and dynamic. That's the fundamental cause that's upfront, I always think. So later in the chant it says, the struggle between what you like and what you dislike is the disease, the disease, the illness, the sickness of thought, of the mind. Now we've got to make sure, as they often say, that thoughts and our mind that knows are not the same thing. So we can think anything, but the mind that knows, the mind that is aware of that thinking is not thought.
• 10:22
  It takes the non thought to see thought. So the struggle between what we like and what we dislike is the disease of the mind. Don't let's replace like and dislike, the struggle between my preferences for this, my preference for that, my preference for I think you're good and you're not so good, preference for I like this experience, I don't like this experience. All that just we go around and around and around and around. I was talking to someone earlier today and they were just giving a talk and they were saying, was it the right thing?
• 10:53
  Did I say this skillfully? Did I say this skillfully? Maybe I should have said this in this way. Maybe I should And they're just going around and around and around and around. Well, how do we live a life that requires that requires and demands that we decide whether we're going to choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream?
• 11:14
  Those are the two choices. It demands that we make choices. And yet, how do we live a life where we don't have preferences? I'm not sure the word preference is actually very accurate but for the time being. So we've got this basic question of life is difficult.
• 11:34
  Not every moment, hopefully most of your lives are not difficult most of the time but I guarantee there are points that life is very, very difficult. And the sutra says it doesn't have to be that way. Sutra actually says it's not that way. And we've got to make choices all the time. We have to choose.
• 11:53
  Are we going to eat this or are we going to eat that? Are we going to go on a date with this person? Are we going to go that, take that job? Are we going to go to Hawaii? Are we going to go to Wyoming?
• 12:03
  You know, we're making choices constantly. So, and the sutra says, the struggle between what we like and dislike is the disease of the mind. So how do we rectify this inherent challenge? And it's got to be rectified experientially. It can't be just something we understand.
• 12:22
  If we can read it in a book and we understand it, that's great. I mean, nice. I like reading books. We got lots of books at the library. But we have to have a visceral experience of these things.
• 12:37
  So let's let's look at this from a perspective as as John was asking about about practice. First off, the very first thing is we all know that right here, right now, we have some awareness, some experience. So we can only experience this. Right? You can only experience your version of this.
• 13:03
  Right? You can't experience your version of breakfast this morning. You can't even, you know, whack your head and yourself in the head and come back and say, oh, I can now experience my my head whack from three days ago. It doesn't work that way. We can only experience what is going on right now.
• 13:27
  Unless I'm wrong, but as far as I can see that's pretty much the word lands. We only can experience now. We can have memories, we can have a story, we can have anticipation, we can have worries about some other time. But when it really gets down to what's the food taste like? Right in your mouth right now.
• 13:56
  What's the sound like right in your ear right now? And as you all know, the minute you walk out of the zendo, if somebody asks you what happened up there, there would be 30 different answers. You know, because everybody is perceiving and hearing something different in this moment. So the first place we're working with this sutra is the struggle between the past and the future is part of the disease of the mind. So how do we anchor ourselves?
• 14:29
  How do we practice with the direct experience of this moment? Because it's got to be tasted, it's got to be known right now. And that's why everybody has a method. Know, but it has a method. A method of doing kongs or shikantaza or boundless wearing, sitting in a balanced awareness or or even better breath practice, or counting practice, or something that really is very visceral and anchors you in this moment.
• 14:57
  When we are anchored and viscerally really connected, when we are alive and awake in this moment and the mind is not seething with possibilities and memories, then we have something right here that's just the way it is. It's not a problem. It's just the way it is. The great way is not difficult if you're feeling your hands. Everybody can feel their hands perfectly.
• 15:24
  Or your nose, or your lips, or your breath, or whatever. You can feel just exactly the way you feel it. But the great way is very difficult if you want to feel your hands from ten years ago or your breath from, you know, how your breath is going be in a year from now. Impossible. The great way is not difficult when we're really truly present and we can all confirm that.
• 15:49
  We can all Right? I hope. Yeah. It's obvious. When we are busy feeling this and we think, not good enough, not good enough, there's a better me someplace else.
• 16:03
  Oh, yes. This is not adequate. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. If I just had an extra arm, then I would be okay.
• 16:08
  If I was just two inches taller, then I would be okay. If I just had three brothers, I would be okay. It's suffering. It's all suffering. So the ground, the ground of being is let's be present.
• 16:24
  Let's be present. I just we just finished this book of Thich Nhat Hanh and he talks about over and over again being present, being present, changing all the time, of course, dynamic. It's not static, being present, being present, being present, present moment. That's his one of his mantras, present moment. The great way is not difficult if we're in the present moment.
• 16:48
  The great way is very difficult if we're worried what's going to ICE is going to do next week. The great way is very difficult if we wonder, is president Trump going to send in troops or not? The great way is very difficult if we worry about what's gonna happen with the homeless, you know, next year if the SNAP or anybody who if the SNAP programs are not begun. So, first off, the great way is not difficult when we are really present. But when are we going to act?
• 17:23
  If we want to do something about any of these situations, we want to do something about the environment or relationship, we can only act right now. Right? And we can only act through our our life. It may be that the way we act is to give voice to some deep aspiration and to encourage and empower lots of people to step forward, but it still is our action in the moment. So if we wouldn't have an influence on the world, in any part of the world that we are concerned about, that action that we are taking with our life right here, right now is the step.
• 18:06
  The journey of a thousand miles is a thousand, more than a thousand steps. You know, Sotin just ran 1,300 miles from Mexico to go to Bell's Mountain. 1,300 miles? I mean, how many steps is that? A lot.
• 18:22
  But you could only run one step at a time. And you're running one step at a time. He did the pilgrimage of 1,300 miles. So the great way is not difficult We're present. And then if we're acting and we're responding, not reacting, we're responding to the circumstances of our life.
• 18:45
  The way that we are present is again each person comes has a method. If you don't have a method, happy to teach you some methods. There's lots of methods. Some methods are all about I will get bigger and better. I will get more energy and I will have this effect and that effect.
• 19:05
  But the method that we tend to emphasize is feeling a sense of gratitude and awe that you are alive right now and that you are being breathed right now. And out of that sense of gratitude and awe for this life right now, all kinds of miracles happen. But without that sense of gratitude and awe, then practice becomes I've got to get better. I've got to fill in the hole. I've to fill the lock in that have.
• 19:38
  I'll get bigger and better and then I'll be wiser and older. But if we don't actually fill in, we don't actually recognize, if we don't actually touch the wholeness of our nature, then all the rest of them just become another spiritual version of the rat race. So the practices that we tend to emphasize here, you know, breath, loving kindness, counting, following the breath, all the, you know, many different practices, they're all about present moment awakeness. Present moment appreciation. Present moment gratitude.
• 20:18
  Present moment I'm alive. Isn't that amazing? I can breathe. Isn't that amazing? The greatest gift anybody can give you is the ability to breathe and be alive.
• 20:29
  And we all are partaking of that. When we are practicing, we can look at all these different statements in this particular chant. The great way, you know, the disease of the mind, we step apart from the disease of the mind because instead of liking and disliking, I don't like this, I want that, instead of being caught up, we we the common denominator is appreciation. I appreciate it's spring. I appreciate spring.
• 21:05
  I appreciate fall. I appreciate winter. I appreciate summer. I respond differently to winter, spring, all summer. Because the place is right here in the whale is everywhere.
• 21:20
  The limits of what can be known cannot be known. Now, so as we do our method and we are allowing the mind to settle down, and we're not trying to fight a battle at some place else, we're only trying to to meet the challenges that we have that we can do right here and right now. Maybe it meets you, you make a podcast and affect the whole Western world with it. I don't know, but it's still something you can only do right now. When we are, because the place is right here, the only place that we can act, the only place that we can sense and see and hear and smell and taste and touch, right here.
• 22:08
  And if we look carefully at this moment, it's actually quite mysterious. It's actually quite mysterious. If you look at the source of your thoughts, and where do these thoughts come from? You can't find a source. They just pop out.
• 22:28
  You know, you'll you'll if you look carefully, you'll see there is patterns to the sequencing of thoughts. But in an individual moment, things just appear. Things just appear. Because it's right here, right here is the creative moment. Right here is when all things come into being.
• 22:48
  And if you're speaking like I am speaking right now, words just pop out. They pop out based upon my, you know, my decades of practice and education, but they're they come out of nowhere. Everything. Every artist is is a good artist, is painting out of their heart, is is singing out of their heart. It's something that's coming out of the great mystery.
• 23:13
  They're not just repeating something they heard or at least that that one part of art. So because the place is right here, creativity is possible in all kinds of ways. We keep thinking we are stuck, we are bound, that the world's gonna turn out like this, the world's gonna turn out like that. But there's creativity everywhere. Everywhere.
• 23:39
  The limits of what can be known cannot be known. So, you know, we can we can discover that. Every great scientist, especially the great scientists, if you I can't remember the quote right now. You know, we learn as much as we can and realize how much more there is to learn. The limits of hope can be known and cannot be known.
• 24:06
  We can verify that directly. So this is a whole sutra about practice. Whole sutra about practice. Whole sutra about the inclusive nature of reality. Now, the word non dual came up.
• 24:24
  If you think carefully about it, it doesn't exist. If you think carefully about it, there's all these people out there saying, the non dual, the non dual, the non dual. Well, if there's non dual, then there's no dual. The non dual means there's no dual. Right?
• 24:46
  If you're in the non dual, there's no dual. Right? And so the only way there's a non dual is you're in the dual. If you're in dual, it's not non dual. You know?
• 24:55
  So it's just it doesn't mean anything. It's a good it's a good catchphrase. The non dual, the non dual, the non dual. Everything is already non dual. There is no such thing as non dual that's outside of non dual.
• 25:09
  It's outside of You know, whether it means everything or it means nothing. So, I don't get caught by those. It's a marketing tool. So many people are marketing something because they say, oh, you do my thing and you pay me my this money and you'll get to understand the non dual. You already understand the non dual.
• 25:29
  You already understand the inclusive nature of reality. We just don't recognize it. So please recognize it. Anyhow, this is a wonderful chant and, I'll try to go through it little more sequentially as time goes on, but really it's all about practice. Every line can be verified.
• 25:49
  Every single line. And every person in this room, whether you walked in the room for the first time or you've been coming here for decades, It's all available. It's all accessible. Nothing is hidden except by our fixed beliefs. And our fixed beliefs can hide anything.
• 26:12
  So, may everyone find freedom. May everyone find freedom and then of course, be a benefit to everybody around you.
• 26:29
  Jomon: Thank you for listening to the Zen Community of Oregon podcast, and thank you for your practice. New episodes air every week. Please consider making a donation at zendest.org. Your support supports us.