Latest / Deep Trope Fantasy & Romance Podcast / The Rules of Magic Read-Along: Book Recap, The Owens Love Curse & Counterculture Witches
Transcript
- Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. I'm Rachel, romantasy theorist. Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy. Rachel: And today we are discussing The Rules of Magic by Alice Hoffman. This is the second episode in our read-along coverage of the entire Practical Magic series as we prepare for the movie sequel, Practical Magic 2, which comes out in theaters on September 11th. Each week we are covering a single book in the series, in release order. Last week we discussed Book One, Practical Magic, so be sure to check out that episode if you haven't already. Kate: And next week we'll discuss magic lessons, book three in the series. And then on September 1st, we'll briefly interrupt our coverage of the Practical Magic series to welcome LJ Claren, author of the Salvaren series on the podcast. We just completed our deep dive of book one, The Silversmith, so this will be our opportunity to ask all of our most pressing questions before the release of The Incendiary on September 8th. Have a question for LJ? Slide into our DMs with what you're dying to ask her. And that also means you'll have an extra week to complete the Book of Magic before our final episode of the Alice Hoffman series on September eighth. Rachel: This series is intended to be a fun book club style discussion, so pour yourself a midnight margarita and enjoy. Kate: And to get the full immersive experience, you can follow us on social media, where we'll be posting different prompts and interactive elements throughout the series. We always love chatting with you, so let's build our coven this practical magic season. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube at Deep Trope Podcast. Rachel: So let's dive into the rules of magic. Before we get into the spoiler-filled portion of the episode, why don't we give a brief initial reaction for anyone who just wants to know whether or not they should read it? So Kate, what did you think? Kate: So as you know from our last episode, I did really enjoy Practical Magic, but I have Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: to say, I thought this one was so much better. Like I and and again, I I liked the first one, but this one was just a whole nother level. It fully gripped me. And I just loved the way that the siblings' stories were like so intertwined while still weaving really unique narratives. It was just really well done and each of the characters was just so fully realized in my mind. Rachel: Mm-hmm. I totally agree. Same. I loved Practical Magic, but this book I just adored. I felt so connected to these characters. And also, historical fiction was my first literary love. I will always love learning about the 1960s and the folk revival that was born in Greenwich Village. And just the counterculture movement as a whole. So this book had like everything I love, right? Like historical magic. Or yeah, historical magic. Actually that's that maybe that is the genre. Kate: Yeah. my gosh. So you just created your own genre. I love it. Rachel: historical fiction, witches, magic, and you know, just these heartwrenching love stories. It it had everything. I thought it was really interesting to layer on a witch story against the backdrop of the counterculture movement. It was such an inspiring time in history where people were turning up en masse to push back against consumerism and capitalism, war and conservative and discriminatory beliefs. And it changed so much about the world, despite, you know. conservatives today doing literally everything they can to set back the clock to the 1950s, but you know, Kate: Yeah. Rachel: we're still fighting. But it's so fitting to set a story about witches during this time, who throughout history were essentially the original counterculture movement, right? Kate: Yes, absolutely. Rachel: Witches, or those accused as witches, have been symbolic throughout the ages. Women who don't fit society's standards and who were set aside as the scapegoats to explain everything from disease to famine. And in the same way, hippies became the scapegoats here in the US as this sort of blight on society with no morals, destroying the safe suburban dream that had been built up since the depression. So I I mean, I think that this was just like Chef's Kiss Five Stars Perfect book for Kate: Yes. Rachel: me. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed it. Rachel: Alright, so let's get into our short recap of the book and our analysis. But before we do, a quick content warning. This episode will cover the rules of magic in detail. So consider this your spoiler warning. If you haven't finished the book yet, consider pausing and coming back once you've finished it. Obviously, we think you should finish it. Kate: Yes, absolutely. Rachel: We will also reference book one, practical magic. So again, consider yourself warned. We're two unfiltered millennials. So maybe toss on your headphones if you're with anyone who is easily offended. to like to start us out with a brief recap of the book? Kate: Sure. I mean there was a lot going on, so brief is relative, but yes. Rachel: Ha ha. Kate: Susanna Burke-Owens tries to raise her children, Frances, Franny, Bridget, Jet, and Vincent, as ordinary kids in 50s and 60s Manhattan, banning magic to shield them from the cursed history of their ancestor Maria Owens. She has a whole list of rules for them to follow. No walking in the moonlight, no Ouija boards, no candles, no red shoes, no wearing black, no going shoeless, no amulets. No night-blooming flowers, no reading novels about magic, no cats, no crows, and no venturing below 14th Street. That's a lot. But despite Susanna's efforts, the children, quote, insisted upon being unusual and manifested extraordinary traits. Franny can commune with birds and levitate. Jet can read minds, and Vincent possesses extreme charisma, is a musical prodigy, predicts the future, and performs magic tricks. And so that that's like a a general basis, but I think we see all of them kind of evolve in their magic and and have. Quite a few different abilities. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: After Franny finds a magic book called The Magus in Vincent's room, they discuss their magical abilities and question their mother's secret habits and their family origin. In June 1960, the children went against their parents' wishes to visit their Aunt Isabelle in Massachusetts, where she resides in the family's ancestral home on Magnolia Street. Aunt Isabelle is a small but formidable woman who they learn is a gifted herbalist and is eager to test the siblings' magical abilities. Isabelle warns them not to deny who they are, telling them a story about their cousin Maggie, who rejected her ancestry in a heated tirade, where each word backfired onto her, cursing her to become a rabbit and trapping her in the family garden. At the local library, Franny discovers Maria Owens' spell book and learns of the family curse quote, ruination for any man who fell in love with them. Every night after midnight, Aunt Isabelle turns on the porchlight to offer local women plant based remedies and spells, ranging from healing sickness and heartbreak to stealing spouses. Rebellious cousin April arrives, warning the siblings that they are bloodline witches who must trust no one. She departs after falling for Vincent and foreseeing a future where she loses everyone she loves. Vincent, who is 14 at the time, by the way, has an affair with a married woman who becomes enchanted by him, like so many women have before. To break her attachment, Aunt Isabelle makes him a protection charm and shows him how to use it. The woman doesn't recognize him the next time she sees him. Aunt Isabelle also shows Vincent a mirror where he sees his future. It's not quite clear to the reader yet, but it's clear to him and it terrifies him. We get a description of a little girl in the grass, a man on a hillside, and a shadowy twin that Vincent describes as another self inside him that he's always trying to avoid. One night, Aunt Isabelle wakes Franny to show her a grimoire full of spells. Franny learns that while the family curse has not been broken in hundreds of years, it might still be possible. However, Franny and Jet experience the curse firsthand the next day when she and Jet go on a date with two boys who then get struck by lightning. Following further incidents, in which local boys go mad and meet their deaths for the love of Jet, the sisters vow to never fall in love. Despite the tragic deaths, Jet connects with Levi, a reverend's son, at the funerals of the other boys. The siblings return to New York at the end of the summer, with both Franny and Jet on the verge of falling in love. Jet with Levi, and Franny with her schoolmate Haylin, who is essentially her only friend. On Halloween in New York City, the siblings test their magic by making wishes come true. Jet wishes for true love and runs into Levi at the Met. Franny wishes for a bird and gains a loyal crow. Vincent drinks to avoid his identity and plans to do a forgetting spell. Susanna forbids Jet from seeing Levi due to an old feud between their families as well as the Owens family curse, revealing she protected herself from the curse by not being in love with their father. Their cousin April visits, discloses Susanna's tragic past in Paris, where she lost her love, and gives them magic candles, one of which reveals Haylin as Franny's true love. Reverend Willard, Levi's father, discovers Levi's connection to Jet and sends her a book with 12 nails in it. Which is an old witch hunting tactic. Vincent's visions are intensifying and he begins seeing terrifying death omens, like spontaneously breaking glass, ashes dropping from the sky, bees swarming at the house windows, and finally the Death Watch Beetle. When Franny gets into Radcliffe, Jet impulsively wishes that Franny will be trapped in New York so she can help cover for Jet's secret meetings with Levi. She regrets the wish, but it can't be taken back. On Jet's 17th birthday, her parents follow her and Levi to the Plaza Hotel. Levi is struck and killed by the parents' taxi, which also crashes and kills both parents, leaving Jet injured, heartbroken, and stripped of her psychic sight. At the funeral in Massachusetts, Aunt Isabelle and Jet run into Reverend Willard, who is devastated by the loss of his son and blames the Owens curse. Isabelle reveals that John Hathorne, a witch hunter and ancestor of the Willards, was the man who scorned their ancestor Maria. She explains that the family curse stems from his hatred and that if the families forgive each other, they can begin to break the curse. Franny forfeits her place at Radcliffe and breaks off her relationship with Haylin to save him from the curse. Assuming guardianship over a depressed Jet and an alcoholic Vincent, Franny sells their home, moves the family to Greenwich Village to sell herbal remedies and sends her crow to watch over Haylin. In an attempt to escape her grief, Jet stumbles into a hippie gathering in the park where she tries LSD. She ends up attempting to drown herself but fails due to her magic that keeps her buoyant. She instead goes to the Plaza Hotel in the room where she was meant to spend her birthday with Levi, and a bell boy named Raphael stops her from taking her life. Jet and Raphael end up having sex, which starts as Jet wanting to pretend he's Levi, but ends with her finding comfort in him without pretending he's someone else. Jet opens up about her family's love curse and Raphael becomes a trusted figure in her life. Vincent continues to play his guitar and he secretly sells dark magic and hexes to make a living, though the practice makes him feel like he's losing his soul. Around this time, he also meets his familiar, a stray German shepherd that he names Harry, Vincent meets history professor and fellow witch descendant William Grant, whom he recognizes from Isabelle's mirror as his destined love. Despite trying to fight his feelings, Vincent falls deeply in love. Franny visits them at William's apartment and warns Vincent again about the curse, but wishes him happiness anyway. She recalls seeing a halo around him as a baby, warning of a beautiful but short life. Alerted by her crow Lewis that Haylin is sick. Franny rushes to Cambridge to see him, only to leave in distress after meeting his girlfriend, Emily. April visits the siblings in New York City with her daughter Regina on the way to California to keep her parents from taking the child. During the visit, Franny spots a halo around Regina, signaling a premature death similar to Vincent's. Haylin comes to New York and gives Franny an ultimatum. Either she will be with him or he will marry Emily. Franny refuses but crashes Haylin and Emily's engagement party, where she ends up sleeping with him. She still insists he should marry Emily and assumes that he does. Vincent and William go to San Francisco for the summer of love and to be able to live more openly as a gay couple. While in California, Vincent gains some recognition as a musician. He also meets up with April, who reveals that Regina is Vincent's daughter, conceived when they first met at Aunt Isabelle's house. Back in New York, Vincent gets injured during the Stonewall riots and goes to meet William's father Alan, a gay man who has had to hide his true self for his whole life. Jet goes to visit Levi's grave and ends up running into Reverend Willard, who she gradually forms a friendship with, beginning to heal the rift between the families. Franny learns that Aunt Isabelle is dying, and when she visits her on her deathbed, Isabelle gives her Maria Owens' sapphire and tells her not to be afraid of love because it will be her salvation from death. Vincent gets drafted into the Vietnam War, but he's desperate to get out of going. Franny decides to enlist Haylin, who is now a doctor, to help falsify records to deem Vincent unfit for service. When Franny goes to see Haylin, she learns that he did not marry Emily, and she ends up telling him the truth about her family and their curse. They plan to trick the curse and hide from it by not living together, marrying, or declaring their love. Before reporting for duty, Vincent tells his sisters that if anything happens to him or April, he wants them to take care of Regina. Franny gives him the note from Haylin that says he has severe asthma, but he forgets the herbs that will help him feign his illness in a cab. In a last-ditch effort to escape enlistment, he tells the examiner that he's a gay wizard and they lock him up in a mental institution. Franny again enlists Haylin and he is able to help Vincent escape to Germany, but the siblings are warned that they cannot have any contact with Vincent or else they risk him being found and arrested. Vincent makes his way from Frankfurt to Paris and ends up meeting a woman named Agnes Durant, who is part of a long line of witches living in Paris. She was friends with his mother when Susanna lived in the city. Agnes tells Vincent that his best option is to believably fake his death so that he can be quote reborn with a new identity. The siblings and William arrive in Paris for Vincent's funeral, but William ends up disappearing, leading Franny to believe he knows Vincent is not dead. Jet reminds Franny that they need to keep up appearances to keep everyone safe. Franny and Jet decide to move to Aunt Isabelle's house on Magnolia Street since the Greenwich Village house no longer feels like home. The two of them become well known in town and begin to leave the back porch light on once again to sell cures and spells. Jet still sees Raphael once a year and he is very much in love with her, but she is still afraid of the curse. When Haylin is injured in the war, where he is working as a Navy doctor, Franny goes to visit him in Paris and meets Agnes, who tells her that Vincent is better off now and will be able to love William without fear. The two of them have made a home in the south of France. Haylin has lost a leg, but after he heals, he decides to move close to Franny despite the curse. Haylin spends some time working in Boston but ultimately becomes the town doctor where he is universally beloved. He and Franny still live apart and mostly see each other at night and never say they love each other. They think they have outwitted the curse, but then Haylin diagnoses himself with cancer, and they realize the curse has caught up with them. Knowing the damage is done, they decide to finally marry and declare their love. Reverend Willard officiates the wedding, and Franny and Haylin live together on Magnolia Street for his few remaining days. Franny is heartbroken and in mourning, not sure how she can ever love again when she gets a phone call. Back in California, 30 years after Vincent's disappearance, we learn what has become of April and Regina. April has recently died of a spider bite, and Regina is absolutely devastated. To help console her, her husband Daniel takes her on a trip where they end up dying in a fire caused by a lightning strike. Their two daughters, Sally and Gillian, are left alone. Sally takes charge and calls Franny and Jet, who April had told them to call if anything bad happened. Sally and Gillian arrive in Massachusetts to begin their lives with their aunts. At first they are scared and unsure about their new guardians, but they find common ground quickly. Jet greets them with chocolate cake for breakfast, and Franny connects with Sally over their shared bond with birds and tells her about their grandfather, Vincent. And that brings us pretty much to where we started in Practical Magic. Rachel: Thank you, Kate. That was a great recap. I just love like reliving this book yet again. Kate: I know, and like there's so I I tried to keep it brief, but there is so much in there and there's so much that I feel like I could still like I I had Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: to cut things that I'd I didn't want to, but you know, I can't read you guys the whole book. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. You guys can read it for your third and fourth time. Kate: Yes. Rachel: So we learned some key new details about the love curse that I think we need to unpack before we get into the characters and the relationships because it it's a central theme throughout the entire book and as part of these relationships, right? Kate: Yes. Rachel: So we finally have the precise details of the curse. Ruination for any man who fell in love with them. That's pretty foreboding. It doesn't really seem like something you can avoid. Kate: No, it also still like I know that we it's a lot more than what we knew in practical magic, but it's still kind of vague, right? Like what exactly does that mean? Is ruination always a tragic death? Or, you know, are Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: there other variations? It's yeah, it's one of those curses that's like, shit, this could mean anything. And so like you always have to watch your back. But Rachel: Right. Kate: I would also like to point out that it does seem to specifically target men. Like it says ruination for any man. Rachel: Uh-huh. Kate: So at first I was wondering like, okay, does that mean that there's like a loophole where women aren't affected? But then we see some of the women that Vincent gets entangled with and like they do not fare super well. So I don't think that that is a loophole, but wouldn't it be so fun if there was a way to avoid the curse by just like being a lesbian? Rachel: That's a great point. Kate: Ha ha ha. Rachel: That's a great point. Cause I actually was wondering too if maybe the curse didn't apply to Vincent since he's a man and perhaps Kate: Yeah. Rachel: it's only for women. Kate: But like that older woman who statutory raped him, she was murdered, right? So Rachel: no, there there's definitely a string of women who were had negative consequences from their entanglements with Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Vincent. but yeah, it's definitely one of those things that make made me question the entire book if if he was the loophole just by being a man. Because he's the only man that we get in this entire series, I believe. I believe, you know, not having read the rest, but Kate: Yeah. It's true. Right. Well, yeah, we don't we don't know everything. But it also like we see like the Owens is described as like matriarchal, like it's very woman centric in their family line. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: but yeah, I just that's why I'd I've in like an alternate universe, they just kind of like evolved into lesbians to avoid the curse. And I love that. Like, you know what? Fuck these men. Honestly. Rachel: We also learn the identity of Maria's lover, who was none other than John Hathorne, the witch hunter at the forefront of the Salem witch trials. And plot twist, Levi and his father are descendants from John Hathorne and his wife, the one who met Maria at the door and broke her heart. So this is a big historical fiction moment. And again, this book doesn't confirm that they are in Salem. But they are clearly in Salem. Kate: Very clearly, yes. Rachel: So, IRL, John Hathorne, was one of the judges in the Salem Witch trials, especially at the beginning of the trials. And the Hathorne family were an extremely wealthy, prominent family in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. They built their wealth off of land and the triangular trade between England, the U.S. colonies, and the West Indies. Author Nathaniel Hawthorne, who is mentioned in the book, was in fact John Hathorne's great-great-grandson, and he is believed to have added the W to their last name to distance himself from his family's association with the Salem Witch trials. So you likely know Nathaniel Hawthorne after reading The Scarlet Letter in High School. But The House of Seven Gables is another one of his famous books. And because we're all witchy women here, if anyone is planning to visit Salem, Massachusetts this spooky season, make sure to add that to your list of places to visit. The House of Seven Gables is an actual house that was owned by a relative of Nathaniel Hawthorne, and it's absolutely stunning. It's historical. So they've built onto it over the years, but it has those same features that were there when Nathaniel Hawthorne was there, including a secret hidden staircase. And it's just an incredible tour where you can learn more about the dark history of the Hathorne family in Massachusetts. Kate: I have not been to Salem, but you've been a few times now and it just looks so fun. Like I definitely need to take a trip there. Rachel: I mean, I'm down. I love I could Kate: Yeah. Rachel: go to Salem every year. I love it there. I stay in Marblehead. I probably shouldn't tell that to the world because now you're all gonna be on My Secret, but it's literally 15 minutes away. It's this gorgeous, like seaside town, amazing seafood, cute little shops, and it's like a 15-minute drive into Salem. So you can kind of avoid the craziness. but it's just it's Such a cute town. It's so full of like rich history. And then, you know, you can get your palm read, you can do some tarot cards, you can have a seance. Yeah. Kate: Yeah, it's it's fun. Yeah, well okay, I know what we're doing year. Rachel: That's right. That's right. Right, so back to the love curse. It's very interesting that Reverend Willard descended from John Hathorne. Jet's arc with Reverend Willard seemed like it could possibly be the healing arc between the two of these families that could cure the curse. But it turns out it was just a healing arc for the two of them. Kate: Well, I mean, like we said, Aunt Isabelle did seem to think that if their families forgave each other, that it would begin to break the curse, right? So I don't know Rachel: Hm. Kate: that it was ever going to be the full cure, but we know obviously that it continues to hold strong well beyond the seemingly healed relationship between the two families. As we read in Practical Magic, poor Sally and Gillian really go through it with Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: the curse. But maybe it did help because it does seem like maybe the curse weakened a little bit. Like when I when we saw the description of the boys who were like yeeting themselves into the underworld for Jet, like she was just like killing them left and right. And Rachel: Uh-huh. Kate: like that was wild. Like so many people died in like such a short period of time. that when you then think about what like Sally and Gillian went through, obviously they were affected by the curse. But Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Sally had a lot of like like a good amount of like long well, not long. Sally had a good amount of time with Michael, where she was like very openly in love, very happy, you know. She was able to have two wonderful children with him. And they weren't hiding from the curse, you know, she didn't try to Like trick the curse, like Franny and Jet did on different occasions. And she was able to live happily for a time where it seemed like Jet and Franny, like their versions of the curse, were like, No, your boy's gonna die quick. Like they didn't Rachel: Yeah. Kate: get a lot of like long, happy time. So that did kind of make me think like maybe that healed relationship between the two feuding families did weaken the curse. Rachel: That's a very interesting point. That's a very interesting point. So maybe this was like the first step in breaking it. Kate: Yeah, maybe there's like just a lot of things that kind of all have to come together to finally break it, but hopefully we'll find out in one of the books in the series. Rachel: Yes, hopefully. These poor women. Kate: I know, please don't make them suffer forever. Rachel: Throughout this book, the characters explore the curse and whether love is worth it in the end, and they all seem to come to the same conclusion, eventually, that it is. So there was a quote when you truly love someone and they love you in return, you ruin your lives together. That is not a curse. It is what life is, my girl. We all come to ruin, we turn to dust. But whom we love is the thing that lasts. So this is something that Aunt Isabelle says to Franny, but then William sort of repeats those words. He he uses the he uses the phrase, we're ruining our lives together. Like he references back to that as well. So hmm, what do you think? Kate: Well, I think that once again, I must insist that love does not have to end in ruin. I don't think that that's the inevitable end for every love story. Like, yes, everyone dies eventually, but not every love ends in tragic death. So I don't think that just the fact that life ends in death means that life ends in ruin. I think that, you know, like I just don't think that it's inevitable. So while I agree that love is worth taking the risk of heartbreak, because that is a valid risk in every, you know, love story, whether you're cursed or not. There's always the risk that you're gonna get hurt or something tragic is going to happen. But it's not a guarantee, unlike the Owens, we talked about this last time, that is pretty much a guarantee at this point. They have not broken the curse. So I don't know that I would risk it if I was an Owens woman, knowing that it's not a risk, but an inevitability. Rachel: well, I see your point. But Kate, I think that your Susanna Burke-Owens is showing. Kate: No, see she was a miserable bitch. Not witch, bitch. and not in a good way that I want all of my friends to kind of be bitches. No, like I did not like her. I think that she went about it wrong because she still tied herself to a man. So she got all the worst parts of marriage without the best parts, and I could never understand that. Rachel: Well, let's unpack it. Let's unpack it. So, Susanna and James Burke-Owens, as you said, they reveal that they were never in love. And they chose to marry despite despite this, Susanna was heartbroken because she was in love with this French man who died via drowning. And as somebody who can't drown, she was not able to save him. So to avoid this heartbreak. She marries this man. But it begs the question: why were they married in the first place? Like I understand that you're avoiding heartbreak, but what's the benefit for James? Kate: Well, he gets a wife that is probably never going to leave him because she's already not in love with him. So there's not really a risk of her falling out of love with him and leaving him Rachel: Right. Kate: for that. you know, so I I think that especially in this time period, marrying is what you did. If you wanted to exist in society, especially the way that Susanna wanted to exist in society, she definitely wanted to have the appearance of being you know, very well off. She liked to play into the you know, Upper East Side Manhattan scene. she needed to have a husband. Like, women at this point couldn't really be very independent and live in the society the way that she wanted to. So for her, that made sense. and for him, I think it was kind of similar. Like obviously he could exist more easily without a wife than she could without a husband, but it still helped him to live the life that he wanted to l lead of, you know, being in society and being his weird, like, psychiatrist guy that didn't charge his patients. And I don't know. She put up with a lot that I don't know that somebody who Else maybe would have. But all that being said, did they fully avoid the curse? Because Rachel: Clearly not. Kate: they tragically and prematurely died. So does that mean that they kind of were actually in love after all? Or does it mean that there's just like I don't know, avoiding trying to avoid the curse is also a way to be hit by the curse. I don't know. Rachel: It certainly seems like it was sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? we discussed fate at great length in last week's episode. And it was a huge theme in this book, what can be foretold and what can be changed. And it's wild to me that they tried so hard to control their children's lives and prevent the heartbreak that they were so intent on avoiding. That they ended up causing the worst of it. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you can't you can't avoid fate, but you might be able to manipulate it a little bit if you're good at it. If you do it Rachel: Right. Kate: the right way. Rachel: Right. It was also interesting that Dr. Burke-Owens was so obsessed with nature versus nurture and he believed that you couldn't outrun your nature. So he believed that no amount of nurturing could undo your nature, but yet he still chose to raise his children in a way that he was stifling their nature as much as possible. Kate: Well, I'm not super surprised by that. because psychiatrists in the fifties and sixties were honestly terrifying creatures. Like, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I wouldn't be surprised if he was planning to conduct like a lifelong research study on his kids. Like by denying their nature, he'd be able to test his theory that you can't avoid nature no matter what obstacles are put in your way. And it would track pretty well with the generally like unethical practices of psychological studies for that time period. Like maybe he was just using his family as his perfect test subjects. Rachel: That's very interesting. And that's very dark. I like that. I like that theory. Kate: Ha ha ha Rachel: That being said he'd also have to come out and like prove the existence of witches in order to to publish this. Kate: Well, you know, well he was gonna cross that bridge when he got to it, and you know he never did because he crashed into a building. Rachel: He crossed the rainbow bridge instead. And then we have Aunt Isabelle. So Aunt Isabelle really is our matron of the Owens Coven in this book. When she invites Franny to her house when she turns 17, she really opens up that world of magic to the siblings and she's there to guide them throughout their lives in a way that her their parents certainly weren't able to do or didn't want to do, right? Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: And she doesn't push love or magic on them, but she encourages both in her own way. Kate: Really liked Aunt Isabelle. She's just this supportive, helpful mother that Susanna really wasn't for them, like you said. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: and she helps to guide them to be themselves rather than trying to forcibly shape them or again deny their nature. So I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I thought that she was a really great guide for them into their family ancestry and who they really are and as. Bloodline witches. Rachel: Yes, yes. So the siblings. We have Franny, six foot tall, redheaded eldest daughter Franny. She is such an interesting arc as we see her warring with her innate draw to magic and then her belief in science. So she really is that perfect example of nature versus nurture, right? And it's Kate: Mm. Rachel: interesting that she tried to deny magic for so long while she was still so naturally talented and drawn to it. And one of those elements that we see early in her life is that birds are drawn to her. So I loved that her familiar was of course a crow, Lewis. Kate: Yeah, I loved Lewis because they like in the book it kind of bridges this gap between like a sentient, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: like he he clearly had personality. He had his own thoughts and like desires and and feelings towards things, right? Like he didn't always agree with Franny and her decisions. He made his distaste quite known sometimes. so I loved Rachel: Yeah. Kate: that we kind of got this like personality from him, but also, you know, it was still not as we've talked about in other books, like he wasn't like a talking bird, right? So like Rachel: Yes, yes, I Kate: the the interesting kind of bond that they have where they can communicate, but they're not speaking and they're not Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I don't know, it's just this like kind of connection that's really hard to describe, honestly. Rachel: Yeah, it's like more of an emotional connection, I think. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Alright, and then Franny's love interest, Haylin. So friends to lovers. And I would also call them Grumpy and Sunshine, right? Like Frannies are Grumpy and Haylin's Kate: I agree, yeah. Rachel: our sunshine. Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: They really feel like two sides of the same coin, though. Like despite their very different personalities, they're both practical and interested in science. And that's was the first thing that kind of drew them together. but again, Haylin's the sunshine. Franny's the grumpy version of that. And it was interesting that Lewis was fine to leave Franny and follow Haylin to Harvard. I think this implied that. Potentially Haylin and Franny were soulmates because her familiar left her to go follow him. What do you think? Kate: I agree. I mean, like we said, there's there's this very deep but kind of undefined connection between a familiar and their witch. And I feel like there's gotta be some kind of similar connection between these true loves, the like destined loves that we see quite a few times in these books. So, you know, I there's gotta be some kind of similar connection there that like you said Lewis this very smart creature would be able to sense that familiarity in Haylin and you know they did even say like at one point Franny insists that Lewis likes Haylin more than he likes her. You know, like so there's Rachel: Yes, yes. Kate: yeah, he he senses the other part of her soul in him, I think. Rachel: Yeah, maybe he likes the sunshine. Kate: Yeah. Which was so funny because he's a crow and so you would assume that he would love Franny's like dark brooding nature. But no, Rachel: Right. Kate: he's like, I just wanna laugh, you know, I just wanna live in the sunshine. Rachel: Well, that being said though, she's convinced that he loves Haylin more than he loves her. But then Haylin's like, No, he just sits and stares at a picture of you all day, which is so funny. Kate: but also like have you seen those videos of like dogs waiting for their people to come home? And you're just like, your whole life is just like centered around your person. So sweet. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, I do think that my dog likely just sits and stares at a photo of me all day. Kate: It's heartbreaking. It's like so Rachel: Ha ha. Kate: sweet but very sad. Rachel: Yeah. we mentioned self-fulfilling prophecies. In the case of Franny and Haylin, I think that the love curse really felt like a self-fulfilling prophecy for them. Why did they need to stay separated for so long? Like if they knew that it was going to end poorly because of this curse, it seemed like they kind of they could have gotten together earlier. Kate: Right. Yeah. Like, did they actually have to stay apart that long? Like, would was Haylin's death always going to be what it was? Right? Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Like, was that always his end? And they could have had all of those happy years together living openly? Or did they prolong it? You know, it's that's another thing that's really left up to interpretation because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: we've seen fate go in both ways. We've seen it be kind of rigid and unmovable, but we've also seen it kind of be manipulated. So it it's Rachel: Right. Kate: it is an interesting question. I thought about that a lot of like could they have been happy and together and not hiding that whole time and he still just would have died the same way. But I like to think that they gave themselves more time, mostly because I want something less tragic to happen. Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I mean they also gave us probably the best bit of spice we'll get in this entire series, which is f*cking in the elevator at their engagement party. Well, not theirs, at at Haylin Kate: you n Rachel: and Emily's engagement party. Kate: you know I like that scene. Rachel: It wasn't explicit, but we ate it up. Kate: Yeah. Well, because again, the the tension Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: for them, they were trying to stay apart, but you can't you can't avoid true love as all of these women found out. Rachel: but still they were both so stubborn that they didn't even get together then. And Haylin blames Franny for being stubborn, but I think that he was pretty stubborn as well. Kate: See, I I think that he would have dropped everything for Franny. Like all he wanted in return was to know that she wasn't going to like immediately change her mind and leave him again. Like that was all that he was asking for was just a little bit of assurance that like she's in it for the long run. I think the resistance was much more on her side. Like what are what were you seeing on Haylin's side that you think he's just as stubborn? Rachel: He like would not drop the fact that she didn't go in after him when he almost drowned in the lake. He wouldn't drop it. Kate: Well, that's a fucking miscommunication trope, okay? He literally didn't know that she couldn't. No. Rachel: Your favorite thing? Right. Kate: 'Cause like as Rachel: Right. Kate: soon as she told him, he was like, well, of course. Rachel: Don't know if that's how it went. Did he say well, of course? I think he was just happy to be with her. Kate: No, he didn't say that exactly, but like he he just like he didn't you know, he he understood, you know, it wasn't a thing anymore Rachel: Yeah. Kate: once he knew what the reason was. Rachel: That's true. No, he definitely fell first for her, I think, and fell the hardest. And she was denying it for so long, which we saw before they went to school, right? Before all the tragedy happened, she denied it for so long before she finally gave in to her feelings. So I do agree that I think that he would drop everything for her, but I think they both have a little bit of a stubborn streak here. Kate: Sure, I mean again, he did still, you know, get to the point where he was about to marry somebody else, but then he didn't, even after Rachel: Right. Kate: she rejected him. So yeah, I think I think Franny's really the stubborn one. I think Haylin would have pretty much done anything if she asked. Rachel: I'm just saying that if I sent my pet to go follow my boyfriend because I couldn't go to college, but he could, and he ended up with another girl during that time, I would have that crow peck his eyeballs out. Or at least hers. Kate: Again, Franny like insisted that they not be together. He didn't want Rachel: Yeah, I hear you. Kate: to be with Emily. Rachel: That being said, we do get the happily ever four days or whatever. Not four Kate: No. Rachel: days. We get the we get the happy times. It was tw no, no, Kate: I mean it was it was a pretty short amount of time. Rachel: they have 20 years together. They have 20 years together. They're not living together yet, right? Until he gets his diagnosis. Kate: Right. Rachel: So they have 20 happy-ish years when he's living in Salem with her, or like near her. And I really loved the healing arc between Haylin and the community in Salem because he was that sunshine. He was that missing piece of Franny's soul that they needed to really have the family be sort of this like accepted family in Salem. Kate: absolutely. And the Grumpy Sunshine is a perfect way to describe it because everybody loved him so much in town. He was absolutely beloved. And then when they like, you know, obviously they didn't s Franny and Haylin didn't spend a lot of time together in public, but like, you know, they still lived in the Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: same town. They were seen together sometimes. And everybody was always so confused. They're like, Why is he hanging out with her? Like she's she's so depressing. Rachel: Yeah, but then the whole town showed up for their wedding. Like they had the wedding in the chapel Kate: Yeah. Rachel: and then they came outside and everybody was out there. Kate: Yeah, they were confused but ultimately supportive. Rachel: Yeah. it was interesting at the end of the book how they describe Fan Franny as so mean when Sally called her. And we know it was just because Haylin had literally just passed. But in the practical magic book, I didn't really take her as scary or grumpy, did you? Kate: No, I mean I think she just maybe didn't necessarily treat them like children, like she didn't baby them, I mean, you Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: know? And so I feel like sometimes that can come across as being stern or cold, but I think it's something that ultimately ends up being appreciated as you get older. Rachel: Right. Right. It it it helps develop more independent adults. Capable adults. As someone who Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: is not a parent but has opinions. Kate: Yeah, I I think, you know, yeah, Franny and Jet were not helicopter parents, that's for damn sure. Rachel: Right. Right. Right, so speaking of jet. Our middle sibling, who was so beautiful that boys literally, as you said, yeeted themselves for her attention. Which is just a wild choice. it was interesting that in practical magic, it's implied that the two boys who were electrocuted for Franny and Jet were their only two loves. Because really, they didn't really know them at all. It was just a first date with them, right? But I think this just shows how. how deep the loss of Haylin and Levi was for them. Janny yeah, Jen Janne. Kate: Ha ha. Rachel: Jet and Franny never spoke about them to the girls. It was probably easier to say that they were visiting the cemetery to remember those boys than to tell them the stories about Haylin and Levi. Kate: Yeah. I mean, I I thought that was so kind of funny, honestly, when 'cause like in practical magic we assumed that, you know, they had this epic love story story that ended in tragedy when these boys were struck by lightning or whatever, you know, like because Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: there's no other love interests that are ever really mentioned for the aunts. But then to see that these boys were Like basically a footnote in in this book. Rachel: Right. Kate: Like they didn't know them. They like didn't have any real relationship with them. But they still somehow had fallen deeply in love with them and, you know, died that way. But it it was just really funny to be like, so we don't know the aunts yet. Rachel: Right, exactly. and then those two additional boys that killed themselves over their love for her that summer, even though she didn't even know them, that is wild. That is wild. That I mean I can understand why she's so traumatized. Kate: yeah. I mean, again, it it was like two sentences where we learn about these boys that killed Rachel: Yeah. Kate: themselves for her. But it it is so wild. And this is again another reason that like I just feel like the curse must have softened at least somewhat because think about all of the boys who were obsessed with Gillian, Rachel: Yeah. Kate: and none of them met quite that. kind of fate, at least not in the like immediate impact Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that Jet had, you know? So Rachel: That's a good point. Kate: it still kind of makes me think that like, yeah, Gillian had a similar effect on people that Jet did, but I don't think that every boy that fell in love with Gillian over the years was like immediately killed, you know? Rachel: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Alright, and then Jet and Levi, InstaLove for both of them. But also Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Starcross lovers, if I've ever seen it. I mean, they are very much like a Romeo and Juliet warring families. Yeah. Kate: one hundred percent. Very tragic, yeah. Rachel: And it was just devastating. there are a lot of sad love stories in this series, but I think this one takes the chocolate tipsy cake. Kate: I mean, for him to be killed kind of by her parents, like in the same accident that kills them, is fucking gut wrenching. Like they just wanted to bang. They just wanted to be at the plaza hotel and have like a very romantic night together to finally get it Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: on. And instead it ends in what's the what what would be the word for three people dead in one accident? I don't know. It's not a mass casualty event, but basically. Rachel: Yeah, well three if you kill three people, you're then you're a serial killer. So it might be a mass casualty event. I don't know. a large casualty event. Kate: Significant casualty event. Rachel: Significant casualty event. I think that's that's a good way to describe it. Kate: So yeah, what a way to I mean, the fact that she was willing to go back there and I mean, that she felt like she could heal by going back there in any way. I mean, obviously her intentions weren't necessarily to heal originally, but still I would never go to that block ever again. But they describe her going back there pretty often. Rachel: Yeah, she'd just stand there. Like, Kate: Yeah. Rachel: that's wild. I I don't know. I am that kind of person that's like, maybe if I just rip the band-aid off and then pull the scab off and then just keep picking at it, it'll get better. So I think that that is the approach there. Kate: Mm. So yeah, I'm not a doctor, but Rachel: Ha ha ha Kate: I don't think that's how that works. Rachel: I'm saying emotionally speaking. Kate: Emotionally or physically, okay. Rachel: But eventually she does get a sort of happily ever something with Raphael, right? And this was an interesting meet cute, if we're gonna call it that. Kate: Yeah, like it it ended that way, but it started the opposite of that. Rachel: Yeah, meet dark. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Raphael was so observant, and I mean, thank God he was. When he when he saw Jet check into the hotel without a bag and then tip him, even though he had he didn't need to do anything, there was no bag to carry, he was immediately suspicious and went to check on her and then heard her crying. So this definitely wasn't insta love for Jet, but it might have been for Raphael that he was like so keyed into her. I don't know. What do you think? Kate: Agree. And it still was left a little bit open ended of whether Jet truly loved him by the end or not. I like to think that she did, and that they essentially kind of did the same thing as Franny and Haylin, where they just didn't openly voice their feelings for each other. But I I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: think it's pretty clear that they did love each other. And it's funny, you we keep saying like happily ever almost happily ever whatever. Cause that's like the best that these women can hope for. Rachel: Yeah. Kate: with this curse. Rachel: I think that it shows that Raphael was just like a good guy, right? That maybe maybe it wasn't insta love. Maybe he was just a good guy who was concerned about this woman. But to your point, for Jet, I do think that she had feelings for him and I think she developed them. And I think it's like this idea of like you have that insta love where you're head over heels immediately, like, I love this person. And then you have that sort of like cozy friendship love that evolves. And I think that's what Jet had, where she felt comfortable. She felt like this was somebody who had her back because then he insisted that they stay in touch. He's like, I feel responsible for you. so somebody that she could feel safe with and had her back, emotionally speaking and physically speaking. And then she sort of started to fall for him in that way. Kate: Yeah. I mean, honestly, it was one of the more realistic love stories of the book because it wasn't Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that insta-love, like insta-obsession that we see so often. Like it was kind of again, I don't want to say wholesome because it started somewhere so dark, but it did end up being that just like very supportive, you know, reliable figure in her life that just like you said, grew into something deeper. And I think that that's way less toxic than so many of the other love stories that we see. So I liked it. Rachel: Well, and it started with truth. She told him he knew her situation. She was at the bottom, rock bottom, right? Like he knew the worst thing that had happened to her. He also knew about the love curse. So they had this really firm foundation. So they avoided all the miscommunication that we saw with Franny Kate: Hmm. Rachel: and Haylin. Kate: Huh. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Look at that. Communication being the key to stability and maybe Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: avoiding tragedy. That's crazy. Rachel: Ha ha ha. then we have our baby bro, Vincent. Franny and Jet's gorgeous younger brother. Charming and beautiful since birth when the nurse tried to kidnap him. Or did kidnap him, but they got him back. And Kate: Right. Rachel: Vincent really takes the approach that we talked about on last week's episode of avoiding the love curse by just banging everyone. But he doesn't Really ask for names very often. Starting with his fling with the neighbor lady, Mrs. Russler, who is in her 30s when he is just 14. And we find out later that her husband murdered her for her cheating ways. And then his cousin April, who he gets pregnant. Now, obviously, we have to touch on the incest of it all. Because what is this? A George R.R. Martin book? But this book does make it clear that they are distant cousins, several times removed. Kate: it still doesn't feel great because they still call her cousin April. Also, it is still like Regina is still you know, not not affected by the incest in the way that non witches often are, but like she does she is a different kind of witch because of their like dual bloodline. Rachel: True, but I think you would maybe get that from from two bloodline witches as well. Like if William and Vincent were Kate: Right, I guess. Rachel: able to have a baby, you know, obviously I know that doesn't work, but if they were able to biologically have a baby together, I think that th it would also have a lot of power. Kate: Yeah, I guess. I'm just curious, like having the both of her witch bloodlines be th the Owens Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: if she's like extra super duper cursed. Rachel: right. So not the power but more the curse, right. Right. So she had only as we know, as we believe we we don't know, not confirmed, but we assume she only had ten fingers, ten toes, but double the curse. Kate: The right phalanges. But Rachel: Ha ha ha. Kate: just Ekstra, ekstra fucked. Rachel: Yeah. So again, we see Vincent has these meaningless flings with women, but they do have real repercussions for those women. Kate: Yeah, which again, makes me think that even though the curse seems to be aimed at men, these women do not get off scot-free. and I will say obviously she didn't deserve to be murdered, because nobody deserves that. But the woman who fucked him when he was fourteen did deserve some big repercussions for statutory raping him. 'cause that was Rachel: Yeah. Kate: fucked. Rachel: Yeah, we see Aunt Isabelle give Vincent this like protection charm to sort of get rid of her, right? When he needs help getting out. and it makes her sort of like just forget who he is. I did feel like she was getting off kind of scot-free there. So I agree agree. Kate: Right. Rachel: Like, I don't think anybody deserves to be murdered, but she definitely needed some kind of repercussions. She even had a kid his age, she said. Like that's crazy. Kate: Yeah, it was it was fucked up. He was a a literal child. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: and that was that was messed up. And like just in general, his sex life up until William can really only be described as problematic. Like Rachel: Yeah. Kate: the statutory rape, the incest, a parade of random women when he was at most like fifteen or sixteen. Like this kid was very much not okay. Rachel: Yeah, yeah. But then he meets William. And I would call this Insta love, but also sort of he falls first, speaking Williams falls first. Because William sounds like a little bit like stalker-ish. He's been Yeah. Kate: Like he set up that whole little like scavenger hunt for Vincent to find him. Rachel: Yes, but like how did William find like William noticed him and kind of was sort of had his eye on him, I guess, magically speaking, like he literally saw him. Right, in his visions. Kate: Yeah, well 'cause like he knew. He was like, I know that you're like my destined love, so I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: found you. Rachel: Yeah. they meet on Vincent's 18th birthday when, as you said, William leaves him a card that says Abercadabra and takes him on this scavenger hunt with instructions to a secret club. And we learn here that William's also a bloodline witch. And he says, You know as well as I do, Vincent, we don't have all the time in the world. So he has visions of the future. He knows that they have this sort of End date. And everything sort of clicks into place for Vincent at this point. He realizes that hi these relationships that he was attempting with women were always very unfulfilling for him for a reason. And when he comes out, he believes that his sisters, at least Franny, already knew. Vincent's an interesting character. He's the only male member of the Owens family we've seen in this book, as we said. Do you think that the love curse actually applied to him? Kate: Think it did. because again, you know, like the women meeting these, you know, more not somewhat tragic ends, but also just like kind of getting fucked over by being entangled with him. Maybe you could attribute that to the fact that like it was just very problematic relationships that he was having and that they were always gonna be. kind of doomed even if it wasn't the curse's doing. But then, you know, with William, it's pretty well implied that if Vincent didn't do what he did to like fake his death, that he would also meet a tragic end and that he and William would not have a happily ever after. So they did Rachel: Yeah. Kate: have to circumvent the the curse to have their their happy ending. Rachel: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Let's get into the magic a little bit more. So in this book, we learn about bloodline witches. And that is when magic is in their blood. So William, as we said, is also a bloodline witch. So he has these sort of like innate abilities. some things we learn about bloodline witches. They can't drown, they just float up to the top. Silver tarnishes in their presence. They often have the sight. So Jet specifically has it early on in the book where she can see into a person's mind, but she loses it after Levi's death. And it sounds like William has a version of it as well. But we also see that Vincent has visions of the future and they're very intense. That's really something that's driving him to drink eventually. And then Franny also describes that she, Jet, and Vincent could see into one another's minds, but when Jet loses Levi, it's just blackness when they reach out to her. But we don't actually see like a description of them speaking into one another's minds. So I don't know. what this actually is, like if it's like a mind speak type thing, if it's knowing what they're thinking, if it's seeing sort of visions about them. What do you think? Kate: Yeah, like it's it kind of like the the connection that Franny has with Lewis. Like it feels more kind of amorphous. It's not a clear I'm speaking words in my mind and you can hear me kind of thing. Like it just seems like they have this sense they can they can sense the other person's presence. They can maybe sense their emotions and you Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: know, so like If they were in danger, you could probably sense that or, you know, like it's it's just not super clear cut, but you can kind of just access their maybe it's almost like a like a aura type thing. Rachel: interesting. Yeah, maybe. Kate: But Rachel: Maybe. So then we also in this book see The Magus, which is a dark magic book that Vincent purchases from an occult bookseller. And Kate, this is a real book. We could go to Greenwich Village and purchase one for ourselves. It is a famous handbook. From 1801 of Ceremonial Magic and Occult Philosophy that was compiled by Frances Barrett. And this book facilitated the modern revival of magic by making information from otherwise rare books readily available. So it has a very dark reputation. So I thought it was interesting that they brought it into this book. And Vincent becomes a practitioner of dark magic and he uses the hexes and curses he learns from the Magus, which he uses to successfully bring money in for the family when they desperately need it. But he feels like he's selling his soul and he feels dark and empty. And this is something that we see in a lot of books as a result of dark magic, where it's sort of like eating your soul. I was surprised that we didn't see any real results of his dark magic, did we? Like, I know that. We know that he was troubled and he drank a lot of times because of his visions. Was this related to the dark magic as well? Kate: I think so. I mean, like I said before, he's definitely not okay. Like I think that it's not a coincidence that Vincent is probably the most troubled of the siblings for like pretty much his entire childhood, right? Like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: Jet and Franny obviously go through their own things. Jet gets to a very dark place, but it's kind of brought on By a very traumatic event. Whereas Vincent has just kind of always been very troubled. He's always struggled to kind of find his way in the world and find any happiness. So I think that there's definitely a connection. because he did kind of start dark, right? Even before he was doing these hexes and stuff, but I think it just drove him even deeper into that. darkness and Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: yeah, I think that it's definitely a reason for him to drink. And I think we would have probably seen even further repercussions of it if he didn't kind of like reincarnate himself. Rachel: So let's talk about it. Let's talk about Vincent's glamour and death spell to avoid the curse. I am curious why did it have to apply to Jet and Franny, but not William and Madame Durant? Kate: It's a good question because they did know that he was alive. So it's not like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: they were completely clueless to what was going on. So I was kind of asking myself the question of what is it that actually tricks the curse? Because it's not everybody believing that he's dead, clearly. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: So, you know, they generally know where he is and that he's alive and happy. And I just Don't know how you kind of go about tricking a curse to begin with. Like, is it a sentient thing? Like, I guess Vincent did cast a spell when he, you know, faked his death. So I don't know if there's some kind of counteracting magic happening there. But it seems like just the optics of people believing that he's dead is a big part of why it works. But then, again, not all of it, because Rachel: Right. Kate: People know that he's alive. So it's just, it's just not very clear cut. And so it's hard to kind of wrap my head around exactly why it actually works and how this curse works. because Franny and Haylin also tried to trick the curse. And it's also ambiguous on whether it actually worked or not, like, cause it kind of worked until it didn't. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: But then we also asked the question earlier, did it actually work or were they just like making themselves miserable for no reason and that their fate was always the same? Rachel: Right. Kate: So it's it's it's tough. I think it's it's a very good question. I don't really have an answer, but it makes me so invested to learn even more about this curse. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: because what is it? How does it work? Why Rachel: Right. Kate: did this work for them? You know? Why did it work but only seemed to like kind of halfway work. Like it would have made more sense to me if Jet and Franny and them really had no idea what happened to Vincent. Rachel: Exactly. I agree. I agree. And yeah, because in theory, it's sort of like he's killing his old self and therefore cutting off all ties. I just don't see how he could bring William along for the ride. Because William is certainly Kate: Right. Rachel: part of his old self, you know? Kate: And also he hasn't completely cut all ties. He still sends things to Regina, you know, like he still sends Rachel: me as much 'cause they like hardly have a relationship, you know? Kate: Right, but again, it's like in this world like that the curse exists in, Vincent is still an active participant. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I know nothing in n about the magic in this world is very clear cut, but this one st it still just keeps running in my mind because He's not dead and most of the people in his life know that he's not dead. Rachel: Right, right. Kate: So how did it work? Rachel: So some of the other magic elements that we see in this book hunting witches with nails, we see Reverend Willard use this tactic on Vincent and Jet. Butter melting when someone is in love. I love that one. That's such a like cozy Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: like tea cup stirring itself type magic. The familiars. So Franny's Crow, Lewis. Jet's cat, Wren. And then Vincent's Black German Shepherd, Harry, named after Harry Houdini. Levitation. So Franny and Vincent's first attempt at magic was levitating a table. One true wish, Franny and Jet. use this spell, which conjured Levi to appear in New York City as Jet's true love and then Lewis to arrive as Franny's familiar because she wanted to be with the birds. So auras. We see auras pretty frequently throughout the book, and in practical magic we see them as well when Kylie can see people's auras. But most notably in this book we see the small halos around Vincent and Regina, which indicate a short but beautiful life. And then we have several death omens in this book. So we have the return of the Death Watch Beetle. But now we can also add to our list bees, which swarmed the family home before their parents' deaths and also swarmed the park. And we saw this albino deer in Washington Square Park, which is said to bring bad luck. And it had just this awful story of people. falling in love with it and then somebody hunting it. It was just very tragic and felt very symbolic. So of course I had to look it up because I was like, this sounds maybe real. Kate: Ha ha ha. Rachel: but I couldn't find any stories about this. So I think it was made up for this book. And then when the sisters set up their shop in their new house downtown, they really become like full-fledged witches here, right? And they get really into their spells and their charms and their potions. And they make a makeshift greenhouse, which is soon overflowing with plants. So we see that sort of green magic again. And they make the black soap under the waning moon. And they craft all sorts of magical teas. So a couple, just gonna list a few. They have the be true to me tea to help their plumber get rid of his wife's boyfriend. There's fever tea. There's frustration tea, which is chamomile, hyssop, raspberry leaf, and rosemary to ensure the day goes smoothly. So maybe we should brew some. And Aunt Isabelle's courage tea, which there is no recipe for, at least not shared in the book, because everybody has to discover this recipe for themselves. Kate: I think the courage tea recipe for me would be a 12 ounce coffee with a side of ADHD medication. Gets me through the day. Rachel: That sounds that sounds great. That sounds like courage tea if I've ever heard it. Kate: Sounds sounds jittery. Rachel: Ha ha So in the shop, they sort of have their specialty love potions, right? And this is something that we really see throughout this series. so they have their basic true love potion, rosemary leaves, anna seeds, honey, and red wine. And then they also give their customers this tip that if you want to grow a lover, if you plant an onion in a flower pot and add plenty of sunlight and water, it will your true love will appear. Kate: Love the description of their shop. It's somewhere that I wish that I could go and visit. Like Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: the closest thing that I have, I have my favorite shop near me, is a little plant shop slash cafe that is in the most adorable fairy tale cottage location. It's like right out of a storybook. And I feel like that's the closest thing that I'll get to going to a witch's shop because I can like be among the plants and be drinking my brew. But I really want to like I don't know go and like just browse a a shelf of like cures that will actually fucking work. Cause I Rachel: Yeah. Kate: think I think that coffee will cure me. It usually does the opposite. Rachel: I know, I really would love to have a shop selling people courage tea, but like have the intuition Kate: Yes. Rachel: to know which people deserve courage and which maybe should have like a nice calming tea and go take a nap and not bring their BS into the world. Kate: Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Please do not get more confident. Rachel: in addition to seeing magic really bloom in this book, and we really get a lot more detail about the magic system. We get a lot more detail about the powers that this family holds. we learn some more about the family, we see some elements kind of carry through from practical magic that I'm sort of keeping a running list so we can see if they come through in the other books as well. So there's the tipsy chocolate cake. Which we did see in Practical Magic, and the aunts make it throughout this book, before they're aunts. but then they also make a version for Regina that doesn't have rum in it. So I saw in the book they didn't have a full recipe, but they listed a few ingredients. There's chocolate bars, super fine, and rum. So I'm gonna be on the hunt for a recipe for this because I think that I maybe need to make this cake. Kate: you know that someone on the internet has made a delicious version of this that we can find. Rachel: somebody had this post that I shared from our Deep Trip account, which was just a gorgeous tipsy chocolate cake to match the one that appears in Practical Magic 2. But I don't think it had rum in it. So I need to look for one with rum because to me that feels I mean, I, you know, why not eat my beverage? Kate: Yeah, I mean it sounds delicious too. Rachel: Yeah. The grimoire. So we're introduced to the family grimoire when Franny inherits it from Aunt Isabelle. Maria's sapphire ring. So this ring was given to her by John Hathorne, along with her bag of diamonds, which she know we know that she had them when she arrived in town. And it was passed down through the generations, but Franny sold it to pay for Vincent's escape to Paris. Kate: I do kind of wonder if we'll see it come back to them in some way in the future though. It just seems like one of those things that like can you fully get rid of it? Rachel: that's interesting. I'm wondering if it had something to do with his ability to die, air quotes, die and be reborn. Kate: so like it was like there's some kind of magic in that that helped to strengthen his like It's again, it wasn't quite a spell, but like I yeah, so like there's like Rachel: I think it was a spell. I I think Madame Durant ran a spell. Kate: Right. So there was a spell, but then it was also like a theatrical performance as well. And like there were like a lot of different elements to it. Rachel: Yeah. Well, I think the theatrical element was to have newspapers cover it so that there would be proof that he died and people would stop looking for him so that he didn't have to worry that it didn't work. since he was technically what's it called when you run to avoid the draft? The draft runner? Kate: A draft dodger. Rachel: Draft Dodger. Yeah. So since he was technically a draft dodger, I think that's why they had the sort of theatrical element so that There was a newspaper and a coroner saying he's dead. Nobody come look for him. Kate: So you think that if like he just wanted to avoid the curse that he could have just done it quietly without Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: all of the theatrics? Rachel: I think so, yeah. Kate: Interesting. But that the sapphire helped and was kind of part of that magic. Rachel: know, this is just coming to me now as we're talking to about it, but I'm wondering if it's Kate: Yeah. I mean I think it's possible. Rachel: I'm wondering if it's symbolic because it's like this symbolic thing between the relationship between Maria and John Hathorne. And the family has clung to it for all these years and now they're free of it. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rachel: Hopefully it's not something they need to cure the k to cure and now they have to go on a treasure hunt. Kate: Yeah. Rachel: Another item that we see the family carry through from Practical Magic into this book are the red boots. So in Practical Magic, we saw Gillian wear red boots and I believe perhaps the aunts did as well. I'm not sure if they had red boots on. I know they had lace up boots, so I'm I'm assuming they might have been red boots, since we know from this book that Franny loves her red boots and we see her wear them every day. And she also found red heels in her mother's closet as well. Kate: Which was interesting because it was one of the rules that Susanna had for the house was no red shoes. Rachel: Yep. Yes, so obviously they're symbolic of being a Kate: But we'll definitely Rachel: witch. Kate: Right. So we'll be on the lookout for red boots in the next book as well, because what if it started with Maria? Rachel: yeah. Yeah. We'll definitely keep an eye out for that. Kate, I gotta tell you something. I ordered myself a pair of red boots. Kate: I love that. I love that so much. What I actually have a pair of red boots too. They're a pair of red docs. So they're like not quite the like witchy boots. But Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: what do yours look like? Rachel: Mine are like slightly heeled, like slightly block heeled. sort of like Western. So I imagine like Gillian would have worn them. I don't know if I would categorize them as like fully a cowboy boot, but sort of that shape. I think they'll Kate: Yeah, yeah. Rachel: be very cute this fall. Kate: Yeah, I I got my red-ish docs last year. They're like a suede doc Marten boot and I Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: will be very excited to wear them in the fall as well. Rachel: That sounds very cute. Ooh, you should pack them for Scotland. Even though it's the summer, everybody wears Doc Marten's over there with like dresses and stuff. Or like jeans and a t-shirt, you know? Cause it's like mid- mid-temps. good point. Good point. I you did Kate: Yeah. I'll have to waterproof them first though. 'Cause you never know. Rachel: say they were suede, so maybe not. Kate: I can waterproof them. I'm not that precious about them. Rachel: And then as I mentioned, the courage tea. So there's definitely a little bit of a list running here. And it certainly sounds like, you know, I imagine that the grimoire has the has the spells. And then I imagine it probably has like a list of like recipes in it as well. Kate: Yes. And I wish that we could have some of these recipes. Certainly for the teas, because if I could just drink a tea and feel less anxious or whatever, you know, I mean I guess I probably could, but the then I wouldn't be able to drive. So anyway. Rachel: Well, you can drink chamomile and lavender tea, which is what I've been drinking every night before bed, and I will tell you it does calm you down. Kate: Yeah, does it help you sleep? Are you still an insomniac? Rachel: Yeah, it has been. No, I am, but that that has been helping. Kate: That's good. But the last thing that I'll say about the magic is just that I love how much magic we get in this one. How much more overt it is, how much more we like explore it very directly versus practical magic, where we were talking about it's very like much more subtle. This one, it's very open, and I love that we got to explore magic more definitively. Rachel: Yeah, I agree. So, because this book is a historical fiction, I do want to touch on the historical elements. In addition to the book's references to the Salem Witch Trials and the Massachusetts Bay Colony that we already covered, we also get this setting of 1960s Manhattan during the counterculture movement. And the children were specifically forbidden from visiting Greenwich Village, which is of course where Vincent finds the Magus. And where they end up moving together when they move downtown later in the book. So, a little background: Greenwich Village was a vibrant hub for the counterculture movement on the East Coast, just like San Francisco was on the West Coast. And it was a bit of a renaissance, a revival of art, music, literature, and ideas. And particularly activists speaking out against the Vietnam War and this sort of like. conservative obsession with this suburban life that was created after the Depression. So many folk music legends like Bob Dylan and Joan Baez started their careers at Gertie's and the Gaslight Cafe, which are mentioned in the book. And at one point in the book, Vincent plays guitar in a park with Dave Van Ronck, known as the mayor of McDougal Street. And this was a real person and a famous folk musician. And if you like me are just like obsessed with this time, there are so many different books that you can read. And I'll include some in our show notes. but one that has always stuck with me is A Freewheelin' Time by Susie Rotolo. So she was Bob Dylan's girlfriend at the time that all this was happening. And she had just honestly a pretty upsetting life experience. But it really puts you in the experience and you know, really drops you into that time period. if you enjoy like a biography, autobiography. Kate: Yeah. I I loved imagining Vincent hanging out with like Bob Dylan and everything. I will Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: say I I'm a bit of a fan. I do have a framed picture of Bob Dylan that I keep behind Rachel: Love it. Kate: me on On my library shelf. So I I love this time period and just thinking of Vincent amongst these folk legends. I mean, Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: throughout the book, Vincent is really just like forest gumping his way through history. He keeps popping up into like these huge historical moments and places. Like I feel like we should check photos from the Castro and Stonewall just to find Vincent like hanging out in the background. Rachel: yeah, I know. I love it. I love it. and I too am a big Bob Dylan fan. I had a big Bob Dylan phase in college. I actually recently went through my books and got rid of a bunch because I had like a whole shelf that were like Bob Dylan biographies. When Jet is in the depths of despair, she takes to wandering the city at night and smoking marijuana with strangers, which again just feels very much like something I would expect of Greenwich Village in the 1960s. Kate: It also sounds like me in college. Rachel: Fair. Kate: Ha ha. Rachel: One Easter Sunday, Jet stumbles into a hippie gathering in Central Park where people were dancing, making love, and dropping acid. And because she specifically said an Easter Sunday, this triggered me to say, hmm, is this a clue? And I did a little research, Kate, and I believe this was a reference to a specific event. So during this time, hippies would hold events called Be-Ins to protest against various issues, such as The Vietnam War and racism. And one of the very first Be-ins was held on Easter Sunday, March 26, 1967, in Central Park's Sheep Meadow. And as many as 10,000 people gathered for what was sort of like a festival-like celebration. And I even Kate: So we need to be looking for jet in those photos too. Rachel: Yes, and I was even able to find some video footage from it. So If you are interested in this, you could definitely do some Googling and you can see for yourself what these festivals were like. And then we saw Vincent and William fly to San Francisco during the summer of love, which was this really defining moment of the counterculture movement. In the summer of 1967, young people, hippies, flocked to the Haight Ashbury neighborhood of San Francisco to promote peace, love, alternative lifestyles, and opposition to the Vietnam War. Have you been to Haight Ashbury? Kate: I have not been to San Francisco in many years. I was pretty young when I went there and so I don't really remember everything. I am, you know, familiar with the neighborhood. I am familiar with like the Castro neighborhood as well. But I was I was a kid last time I was there. So I would love to go as an adult and kind of experience more of these specific cultural landmarks. Rachel: Yeah, I would like to go back and do a little bit more of a tour. I just went for like an afternoon on a larger v trip. And it is like if you love like Greenwich Village and you love like folk music and just that whole time period, I mean it's like a ha it's a must see. You know, it's the same kind of concept, just it's like the West Coast version. and then some of the darker elements that we see in this book as well that were true moments in history. So the Stonewall riots. We see Vincent get caught up in the Stonewall riots in the book. I don't believe it's named the Stonewall Riots, but I think that's what it's describing. So during this time period, Very few establishments welcomed openly gay people in the 1960s, and that's something that we see in the book. Vincent and William even meet at a private club that was hidden away almost like a speakeasy. The Stonewall Inn was popular amongst the poorest and most marginalized people in the gay community, drag queens and members of the transgender community. And the Stonewall riots were a series of riots and demonstrations against police after a surprise raid on the Stonewall Inn on June 28th, 1969. Tension between police and the queer community had been building for some time, and it all sort of came to a head when the community fought back that night. This was really a catalyst that sparked a new era in the gay rights movement. So it was very appropriate. That Vincent participated in the riot. And I think it was a good description of how many people get involved in these types of moments. He was just walking down the street and was sort of taken up in the experience. And as I was researching Greenwich Village, I also found that Dave Van Ronck, who we mentioned before. was actually involved in the Stonewall riots as well. And he was one of the thirteen people arrested for participation on June twenty eighth. And the description that I read, he was just dining nearby and when he saw what was happening, joined the riot against the police. And then there's the Vietnam War. So this was really the backdrop that all of this was happening against, right? So the counterculture movement was very much. I don't know that I would say it was sparked by the Vietnam War. And I'm sure there's plenty of books and podcasts that explore this in more detail. But it was definitely, A driving factor as the movement sort of came to fruition. And the US involvement in the Vietnam War was really a looming presence over everyone during this time, but especially young men of Vincent's age who were drafted into a war they didn't believe in. It was a very violent, vicious war where we did not have home field advantage. So, seeing Haylin's medical tent bombed, despite the fact that he thought he'd be safe as a doctor, is a very realistic portrayal of that war specifically. And they describe the medical tent as being hidden by greenery but visible on windy days, which the enemy used to their advantage. Kate: I don't know about you, but when I was growing up in school, I feel like they taught a version of the Vietnam War that was basically like the US righteously fought to save the like hapless citizens of this poor country from the evil clutches of communism. And then like a bunch of stuff happened, and then we tied. Like it was not very clearly communicated or or taught like what was actually happening here and what the end result was. Cause meanwhile, we decidedly did not win this war. And in the process, we traumatized an entire generation of men, like you said, and also poisoned the next generation of children through chemical warfare. so there's just like so many repercussions from this that were just like insane. And again, I just don't feel like our education system like really properly. tells the story of what happened, which is very common, I think, in in this country, unfortunately. But interestingly enough, my dad's friend actually wrote a book about the government's failures in the Vietnam War. And he specifically called it an abdication of the government's responsibility to the American people, which I feel like is a pretty apt description of what happened. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: they fucked everybody over and they lied while doing it. and it's only gotten worse since then. So glad we didn't learn anything. Rachel: Yeah, it sounds familiar. Yeah. Didn't learn anything at all. we're just repeating history over and over again. Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Gee, what war are we in now? Are we winning this one? Rachel: Yeah, and let's scapegoat the activists who are fighting out against it because sometimes their demonstrations Kate: Mm-hmm. Rachel: get a little violent. Kate: yeah, 'cause God forbid somebody's angry about the humanitarian crises and the war crimes that we're committing. Rachel: Well, on that note, one more dark one more dark element that I do want to point out that did actually happen in history. So the psychiatric hospitals. when Vincent's showing up for his medical evaluation and his sort of last ditch effort to dodge the war, he tells them he's a gay wizard and he wants to be exempt because of because he's not mentally fit, which ends up landing him in this awful, awful psychiatric hospital. And this is something that actually occurred in history. There is a dark history of committing queer people to psychiatric wards. Kate: And unruly women, right? Hysterical women, which Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: I think is just kind of like a modern day witch hunt. Rachel: Yes, yes, yes, very true. So from nineteen fifty-two to nineteen seventy-three, homosexuality was actually listed in the DSM, which, if you're not familiar with the DSM, it's the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders published by the American Psychiatrics Association, and it's the standard handbook used by mental health and medical professionals in the US and around the world. And so by listing it, They were able to essentially incarcerate without without due process gay people in the United States and and trapping them. And that's what we see in this book is they really had to think, how are we going to get Vincent out of here? And there was no legal path forward. So they had to break him out. Kate: Yeah. There's a a very, very dark history in our country for pretty much every single marginalized community that exists. there's many examples of how this country has fucked them over and tried to erase them. But you know what? They don't stay down. and they continue to fight back. We have these moments throughout history like the the counterculture movement that, you know, just show the resilience of marginalized groups and how, you know, they're going to refuse to be beaten down. Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that was a lot to cover. And I don't want to end on a dark note. So Kate, I'm gonna ask you, what was your favorite like magical element? What was your favorite spell, your favorite piece of magic in this book? Kate: that's tough because I really did love so much of the magic that we got here. I think it was just getting a deeper understanding of the like the herbology and the botany Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: that kind of went into this. Because again, we saw a little bit of that with the aunts and their backdoor dealings in practical magic, but this one, like we get some of these recipes for these teas, like you were saying, and you Rachel: Mm-hmm. Kate: know, the shop that they built and sold these remedies to people. I really loved learning about that part of it and just kind of seeing the actual spells that go into it, you know, being like we Rachel: Yeah. Kate: are witches, we have spells, here they are. Rachel: Yeah, yeah, I love that too. my favorite elements, I guess I should say, were the familiars. I loved the familiars. I loved having these animals that were not pets, but they were Kate: No, no, they were very much independent creatures. Rachel: Mm. But they were really sort of their soulmates in many ways. Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I love I mean, April literally describes her familiar as a soulmate, right? What was it? Her her ferret? Rachel: yes, her her ferret. I'm sorry we forgot the ferret on our list of familiars, but yes, April's Ferret who really had a very tragic end. So we're not gonna think about that. Kate: Yeah, brutal. But but yeah, like she said, he is my soul mate. Rachel: Yeah. poor April. But yeah, I just really love this book. Honestly, we could have done a chapter by chapter deep dive of this one. From the magic to the relationships to the historical setting, this could have easily been a multi episode deep dive. Kate: one hundred percent. I mean, I know that this is probably gonna be a longer episode to begin with, but we c there's so many interesting layers to this. I'd love to discuss them more. I mean, maybe we'll have to kind of revisit this book in the future for another spooky season because there's just so much to unpack here that I don't think we can like fully cover it in one episode. Rachel: Mm, maybe, maybe. Kate: But either way, we hope you enjoyed our discussion of the rules of magic and join us next week for Magic Lessons, where we finally meet the OG Maria Owens. And if you enjoyed yourself, please subscribe and share with a friend or ideally all of your friends on social media. If you feel so inclined, we would also be very thankful for your five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. We're still a new podcast and reviews go such a long way in helping us reach a wider audience. Rachel: Alright, see you next week. Kate: Bye.