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The Study of Eternal Security Part 1 | Simply Christ Ministries · Simply Christ Podcast

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with Aaron Keaton, Melvin Martin, Andrew Schrock and Dan
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Blatz. Let's get right to it.
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All right. Good morning, guys.
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We are here on a Wednesday morning.
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Thanks for tuning in and and seeing what we got here this
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morning. So we're going to be talking
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about, we finished up Colossians there and today and maybe the
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next couple, I don't know, see how it goes here.
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We're going to be talking about eternal security and how that
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works and the different kind of the four common belief systems
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that people have regarding this and just going to go through it
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systematically and kind of talk about the different positions
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and verses that people use to defend or discredit whatever
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they're positioned in that typically.
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So going to be an interesting study, I believe.
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Before we get started, I'll open this up with a word of prayer.
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Thank God. We thank you for this morning.
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Thank you that you loved us first.
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Thank you that you have pulled our feet from the miry clay and
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set it on the solid rock and given us a place to be.
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You call us the people, the church, the bride, your bride
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and God, we thank you for that. We thank you that you have given
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us the word, the Holy Spirit. You've given us the tools that
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we need to walk in this world and and represent you as
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ambassadors for your Kingdom. And so God, we love you, we
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thank you, we praise you for your goodness in Jesus name,
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Amen. So the question is how I guess,
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you know, this is a common and probably pretty controversial
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question that gets subject, as I should say, that gets talked
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about a lot and argued about a lot.
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And this, this morning, we're just going to talk about
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probably one or two of the different kind of stances that
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people have and just take them apart a little bit and look at
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them and see what what we can learn.
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And the first one, the first position of that, that a lot of
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people kind of stand. I see it out here in Iowa a lot.
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I'm sure Melvin sees that in the South quite a bit too.
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Is the Baptist, is a typical Baptist view is the, you know,
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classic one saved, always saved, where they believe that if any,
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if somebody has been genuinely saved, they could never lose
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that salvation. They believe that salvation is
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entirely God's work and a true believer is kept.
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By. God's power and they also with
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that kind of comes the idea that if somebody walks away or
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whatever is the the reason for that would be that they're not
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actually never actually were saved.
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So we're going to look at that that position first.
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Is there any, any other comments that would help clarify this,
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this position at all that you can think of?
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Melvin just just regarding the the position itself, not
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thinking about the scriptures. Yeah, I think it's one of those
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things that I think that people kind of generally jiggle around
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in their brain about a lot, you know, because like what, what
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would what would, why would God leave us?
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Go like is what? What a lot of what a lot?
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Of people say, you know, like, why would he save us?
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And then and then we could like walk away like there's no
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assurance in that. I think it's the biggest
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argument, I think with this kind of view is that it don't, it
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doesn't seem like there's any assurance in that.
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But. And it is true that God is not
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going to just, you know, drop us like a hot potato that God
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wouldn't send his son Jesus to die for our sins and then turn
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his back to us. But I think that's the biggest
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thing that I see about this argument.
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When people that would believe this once they always say it is
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that, you know, they say, well, how any is there any other view?
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How would there be any assurance, you know?
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So I guess that's one of the things that comes to my mind
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about this kind of belief. And we're, we're definitely
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going to see some of the scriptures that I mean, I can, I
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can see where it comes from. And, and it feels to me too,
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like it's, it's pretty, it's pretty convenient, you know, if
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somebody can just say, well, you know, I've gave my life to the
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Lord when I was 15, you know, And so that's, that's kind of a
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convenient position there too, Dan.
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Yeah, there was some, there's quite a few people that would
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hold to this kind of view, obviously, as we know.
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And the problem that we're probably all trying to point out
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is that exact thing is people who, you know, set a sinner's
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prayer at four or five or six years old.
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And then they go on living like the devil and have some kind of
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confidence that they're OK because they said a prayer once.
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And then there's the opposite side a lot of times that more
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Mennonite view, more Wesleyan view will come after and say, I
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don't know, if you live like this, you're going to hell.
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And so it becomes this weird contradiction where they're both
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in deep error. One has confidence in a prayer
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they prayed and not really a lot of confidence in what Christ has
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done. They're not actually trusting
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what Christ has done. They're just trusting in this
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one saved, always saved doctrine.
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And the other side is saying that I don't know if you do this
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sin or that sin, you'll lose it. And so you got two big errors on
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this one doctrine and both of them finding plenty of
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scriptures to hold to and prove that why they believe what they
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believe. And I think going through some
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of these verses can be quite helpful and discovering what
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those verses actually mean and what kind of a confidence and
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insurance we should actually have.
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Yeah, I agree, Andrew. I guess this study is probably
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going to be good for me because being challenged with this again
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and kind of makes you think again.
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You know the things that I thought I was sure, but now man,
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going to some of these verses like wow.
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The the issue that I have is that the Bible, like the entire
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Paul's epistols and many other letters in the book of Hebrews,
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Peter, all full of the Old Testament, is about continuing
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to believe in God's promises and to walk in it.
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And the people that didn't that stop that went after unbelief or
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went after other gods, even though God had promised them
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their destiny, he had promised them the promised land.
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Even Moses didn't enter into the promised land because, you know,
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he got upset and frustrated with the unbelief of wasn't even
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necessarily his unbelief. But then on the I guess I went
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on a rabbit trail. I wasn't meaning to, but the the
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thing that to answer your question is the thing that I'm
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trying to reconcile it. How is it insecure?
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How is it insecure? You know that Jesus Christ is
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the answer and be settled and grounded in him.
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I don't understand why that's insecure.
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Plus we have all these verses that say that he will never
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leave us. Like he he's not the one that's
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ever going to drop the ball on us.
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So I don't find how that's insecure.
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But then they say, well, then there's a really good argument
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is that, well, if you're not saved, then it will show.
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So if you are living like the devil, like you guys were
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saying, then that's just someone that's not safe.
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They thought they were or they did the said the right thing,
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but they're not safe. You can know them by their fruit
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whether they're saved or not. Well then if that was the case,
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how is that security then? Because then every time I
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screwed up or lift like the devil for an hour or 10 minutes
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or a second or got angry and outburst or whatever, then I'd
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be like, William, man, am I saved?
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Like, so I don't find much security in that either.
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So I come back to finding my security in Jesus Christ, that
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he died for sinners like me. And I'm not necessarily
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measuring myself according to my works to whether to try to see
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if I'm saved or not. I just know that he took my
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place and I'm secure in that. I don't know.
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That's that's, that's just where I'm at right now.
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Yeah, yeah, like, like Dan said, there's definitely, I think I
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agree with what Dan said, that there's there's a a conflicting
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position where where you're some would say that you can have no
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assurance. I know I I wish Aaron could be
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on here. His his upbringing was very much
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that way. You know, where you're always in
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danger, You know, if you if you do something bad and wreck on
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the way home, you're going straight to hell.
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You know, there's no, no chances, there are no
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forgiveness there till it's been repented of and stuff like that.
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But then it's the other side that, but actually, I think the
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truth is somewhere in between there.
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Actually, I think we'll see what it is.
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And so anyway, the, the, the four different kind of, and just
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to clarify what we're, what we're going at here, the, I want
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to just talk a little bit about the four different kind of
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positions we're going to talk about this morning, mostly about
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the once saved, always saved or, you know, there's different
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titles for these, you know, positions or whatever.
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But for lack of better words, we'll, we'll be talking about
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kind of the once saved, always saved.
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In other words, you, you can't under any circumstances lose
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your salvation. And then there's a second
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position that that is kind of a, you know, reformed perseverance.
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And, and we'll talk about that a little bit too, But this, the
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other one is the third one will be conditional security.
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And that's that's how I understand the the the biblical
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text to teach us that it is, which is conditional.
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The condition is are you, do you have faith in Christ or not?
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And that can come and go to a degree probably.
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And then there's the Sacramento or, or covenant view, which is
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the the other and where your salvation can it's the, you
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know, based on what you did today or tomorrow, like short
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accounts kind of kind of thing. So we'll talk about those, those
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different ones. All right, the first scripture
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that a lot of guys run to and I, I myself find this one
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problematic with, with my position in a sense, is John
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1027 to 29. And we'll, we'll, I'll read
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these 3 verses and then we'll kind of unpack them a little
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bit. John 1027 to 29 says, My sheep
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hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
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And I gave unto them eternal life, and they shall never
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perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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My father, which gave them me is greater than all, and no man is
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able to pluck them out of my father's hand.
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And so for myself, I, I, I would say that.
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I mean, obviously it, it says that no one can pluck them out
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of the father's hand. That does not mean that you can
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walk, not walk out of the father's hand.
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That may or may not be true. I don't know.
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But but mostly I know it's something that I'm not 100%
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understanding with this verse because of the abundance of
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verses that suggest otherwise. That suggests that that, you
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know, like Andrew was saying, there's tons of verses that
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encourage us to stay in the faith.
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So there is such a thing like that.
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But I'm, I'm curious how you how you guys look at this verse in
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light of being able to lose your salvation, No.
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Well, I think probably what the biggest thing that they the
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verse part of the verse that probably they stand on is it and
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they shall never perish. I give unto them eternal life
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and they shall never perish, right.
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But if you back up the verse 27, it says my sheep hear my voice,
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and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal
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life. Well, so if God would not give
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us eternal or everlasting life, then there would be why would we
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believe in Christ? Like if, if that wouldn't be the
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case, why would we then believe in Jesus and what Jesus has done
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for us if he wouldn't give us eternal life and everlasting
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life? And they shall never perish.
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And I, I'm not totally sure I understand that either.
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Exactly that word perish, you know, means to to die or to to
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be put down. And so I don't know exactly
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myself where to put all that. They shall never perish.
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But it says neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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Like you said, Leanne, there it's very obvious.
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There's we're going to go into Ephesians and there it's pretty
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obvious that there's no, nothing on this earth that can take us
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away from God's love and what and what Jesus has done for us,
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right? And so that is to me, that is
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assurance like that gives me assurance that that I can't.
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There's nothing that is here in my life on this earth other than
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me, right, other than myself, because the other day I was
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reading and I got into Jeremiah and Jeremiah chapter 3 it in
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verse one it just it says this they say if a man put away his
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wife and she go from him and become another man's shall he
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return unto her her again? Shall not that land be greatly
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polluted? But thou he's talking about
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Israel or about the Jews, Jewish Israel, he says, but thou has
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played the harlot with many lovers and yet return again to
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me sayeth the Lord. So God is obviously even back
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there with Israel when they turned away from God and, and
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when they served other gods and played the harlot with Jehovah,
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the true God, he was wanting them to come back.
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He wanted them to to serve him, to to worship him and not these
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other false gods. And so I guess that gives me
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assurance, I guess, but I'm not totally sure.
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Maybe some of the other, maybe Dan or Andrew can talk more
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about that. They shall never perish, because
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I know that is the part that they stand on.
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Yeah, Dan, go ahead. I, I guess I don't try to marry
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any 2 doctrines together like this verse is as plain as plain
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can be be. And I don't think even saying
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like if reading this passage and saying no one shall pluck them
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out of their hand, but then saying, but you can pluck
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yourself out it. It does put a lot of onus upon
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me then to perform in some way, whether that's walking in
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holiness or whether that's holding firmly to the faith and
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never ever swaying or wavering in any way, right.
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Like it's there's a ton of pressure then where God is
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saying nobody can pluck you out, but you better watch out because
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you can pluck you out. It doesn't.
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It's not the passage. Passage is intent.
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The intent of this passage is exactly what we should all feel
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when we read this passage. We should feel complete and
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utter contentment, joy, security, and the knowledge that
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I'm never going to be lost. Christ saved me and it's a
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complete work and there's nothing I need to worry about
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now. I mean, first Peter chapter 1, I
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think Leon mentioned that this morning.
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It says that we are kept by the power of God through through
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faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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I have complete confidence that God will keep me.
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So even if I'm the one, the I'm the one catalyst that could keep
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me out of the faith, God says I have taken it upon myself to
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keep you in the faith. And so again, absolute complete
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assurance that Christ did the work.
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He saved me on his terms. He's the one that died and rose
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again for my sins and I am completely secure in that work.
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I'm not worried in the least. Then I gummed off passages like
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we did in for in the book of Hebrews in particular, or even
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in Colossians and Ephesians that give strong warnings to continue
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in the faith. I would preach those just as
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well, you know, like you, you don't have to reconcile the two
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completely. They're, I think they are
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reconcilable. And I think Michael Pearl did a
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great job of it when he talked about that illustration with the
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Paul going to stand before Caesar.
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And then on the way there, he's like, hey, if we get off this
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ship, we're all going to die. And it, those are contradictory
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statements. We're going to stand before
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Caesar and we're all going to die.
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Then God comes to Paul in a dream through an Angel and says,
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don't worry, you're all going to make it.
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And then somebody's threatening to get off the ship and Paul
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says, if you get off the ship, you're going to die and we're
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all going to die. And so there's these
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contradictory statements that seem like contradictions, but
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what happened in the end, God kept his word.
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Everyone was saved and got to God be the glory.
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But had they disobeyed, they would have died.
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And so to me it's both. You know, this verse should not
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be quickly. What do you call it contradicted
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with those other verses saying hey, but but but you know, no,
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you should just rejoice in the goodness of God in this passage.
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Amen. Yeah.
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That's, that's really good then. I appreciate that, Andrew.
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Yeah, that's what I was going to say too, is that we shall not
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take away from the security that we have in Christ.
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Reading those passages just made me rejoice again.
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Like I read all of them about the security of the believer and
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it's great. What that does to me is makes me
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love God even more. But I have to look at, try to
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look at and understand the wisdom of God.
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Paul talked a lot about us having spiritual wisdom and
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spiritual understanding. And if you look at God's goal
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and purpose, you almost have to have sort of like the idea of a
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positive and a negative in order to get a really good current or,
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you know, to have success. And I don't know if that's a
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good analogy in this case or not, but for a believer isn't
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good to know that? There's no evil spirit, there's
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no principality, there's no power, there's no man.
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There's nothing that can separate me from the love of
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Christ. Tribulation.
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I get persecuted, I get slaughtered.
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I could saw an asunder. I get the worst thing in the
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world happens to me. All my friends leave me.
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I'm stuck in a awful world where all my friends are ungodly or
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whatever. There's nothing that will
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separate me from the love of Christ.
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That's the confidence that I have in Jesus.
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I'm glad for that. But to bring as many people in
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the glory as possible, I would not then turn around and say you
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don't have to believe and be secure.
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I don't under. That's where I get lost is that
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you're trying to justify someone that doesn't believe because
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they believed at one point. Well, then you just say, well
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then they were never saved. So how do we know that then?
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Anybody say they believe the gospel, didn't they?
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They trusted Christ, didn't they?
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So am I not saved? You know, what do I have to do
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to convince somebody that I'm saved?
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Like or is it just a natural thing that if you're saved, then
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it's just going to show, well, I'm believing and trusting the
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gospel and I know many people that believe and trust the
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gospel and then all of a sudden they believe something else.
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Well, then you can make the argument that you're never safe.
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OK, fine. Just don't bring security to an
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unbeliever. That's all I'm going to say.
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I guess like it's good for us to be challenged to stay with Jesus
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Christ and him alone. If you go somewhere else, you're
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not believing the gospel. I think that's good.
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Like why would you try to bring confidence to someone that's
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adding to the gospel? Like you shouldn't do that.
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Are they falling away? Well, that's not for me to say.
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What's me to say is that if you're believing something that
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is not the gospel, then you're in danger.
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And then there's many verses that say like in in Romans 11,
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Romans 11 is probably one of my the the best verses to kind of
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challenge us to not be too high minded with this idea not losing
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our salvation because in in Romans 11, starting in verse 18,
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it says boast not against the branches, but if thou boast,
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thou bearest not the root, but the root thee They still saying
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that the children of Israel are basically God's people are still
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bearing us, which are we are the wild branches where the Gentiles
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grafted in that will say then the branches were broken off
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that I might be grafted in well because of unbelief.
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They were broken off, and thou standest by faith.
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Be not high minded, but fear. Fear for what?
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For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed,
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lest He also spare not thee. What do you mean God won't spare
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me Like? Why is that there?
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Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God on them
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which fell severity. But toward thee goodness, if
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thou continue in His goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut
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off. And they also, if they abide not
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steal in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to
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graft them in again. So doesn't that show us that,
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yeah, we have that security in Christ, but that's where it's
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at. Don't leave that.
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Like don't think that you can leave that like the children of
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Israel did and think that you'll be fine because you're boasting
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in high minded. Like my God, He's never going to
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leave me. He's never going to forsake me.
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Doesn't matter what I do No all saying the same Paul that just
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said we just read Romans where I forget the verses now that we
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read about security of the believer and I think it's an 8
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Romans 8 later maybe anyhow. What do you do with those
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verses? You know, I I, I just think that
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we're connected by faith and if you put her faith in something
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else, then your reward should be that you're going to be
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challenged. You're going to be you need you
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need this exhortation here is in Christ, nowhere else.
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I'll read that Romans 8. That's the next scripture that
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we want to look at. Romans 828 or 29 to 39 says for
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whom He did for no, He also did predestinate to be conformed,
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also to to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might
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be the first born among many brethren.
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Moreover, whom He did predestinate them He also
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called, and whom He called them He also justified, and whom He
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justified them He also glorified.
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What shall we say to these things?
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If God before us, who can be against us?
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He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all,
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how shall we not with Him also free heal us things?
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Who shall lay unto anything? Who shall lay anything to the
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charge of God's elect? Is it is God that justifieth?
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Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yeah,
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rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of
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God, who maketh intercession for us, Who shall separate us from
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the love of Christ? So shall tribulation, or
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distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril,
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or sword, as it is written, for thy sake.
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We are killed. All the day long we are
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accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him
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that loved us. For I am persuaded that neither
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death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor
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things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor
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any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the
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love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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That sounds pretty secure to me. I am and verses like that bring
26:48
me great comfort, great peace, knowing that he's got us and
26:56
it's you know, and and and the whole the whole argument here
26:59
is, you know, the problem is and and I I'm I'm guilty of that
27:03
myself is to trying to trying to determine which camp I'm in
27:08
regarding this like which, which title do I give myself as a
27:13
believer? Am I in in the one saved always
27:16
camp or am I in the, you know, conditional security camp or am
27:21
I where am I actually? And that actually gets in the
27:25
way of the Bible in a lot of in a lot of ways it does.
27:29
Dan, I really appreciate what you said about that.
27:31
Like, like we don't have to take the strength of one verse away
27:36
in order to believe another one. And you know, we would say we
27:40
would tend it like if you, if you put yourself first in a, in
27:43
a certain camp versus another camp, you are, you are.
27:46
And I did it. This is this something that I
27:48
struggled with a lot is then you have to almost take the strength
27:55
of some of these verses and, and, or you feel like you're
27:59
going to be contradicted. But I agree with you, Dan, and a
28:02
lot of these, it's actually both.
28:04
It's, it's not either or. It's both.
28:07
And so, yeah, interested on your commentary on this.
28:10
This, this to me is probably one of the one of the strongest
28:15
verses that that people will run to in a lot of cases in this,
28:20
but it's a good one. Yeah, I think some of the
28:24
problematic thing could be is that we some, a lot of times we
28:29
read the Bible or read Scripture to try and solve a problem like
28:36
for a a thought that we have or a thinking that we have or
28:40
problem we have in our life. Instead of reading the
28:43
scriptures for what they are, like just reading the scriptures
28:48
and and taking the scriptures for what they are.
28:51
Because the problem is I when we decided to do this, I was
28:56
thinking in my mind like, so if you read these scriptures with
29:01
the mindset or the thinking that you are once saved, always
29:05
saved, then you're going to read these scriptures differently or.
29:09
Or if you. However you believe, and I like
29:12
what you said, Leanne, I think, and Dan too.
29:15
And Andrew, why are we trying to pick the scriptures apart so
29:19
much and trying to twist them and make them say what we think
29:23
they should say, where let's just read the Scriptures for
29:27
what they say. And that the simple fact is, is
29:30
that Christ died for me and I need to believe that only
29:34
through Christ and Christ alone is my salvation and my eternal
29:39
security, right? And so that's pretty simple.
29:42
Like why do we have to make it so complicated?
29:45
I guess it's, you know, and I think the problem is, is when
29:48
we're reading scriptures trying to figure out a problem or
29:52
something instead of reading into what they are.
29:54
But I like in verse 34 in this he says because you know a lot
30:01
of people I think that stand on this once saved, always save use
30:05
the where you started there in verse 30 and 31 about the
30:09
predestination. But I like what it says in verse
30:13
34. It says who is he that condemn
30:16
it? Is it Christ that died?
30:18
Yeah, rather that is risen again, who is even at the right
30:21
hand of God and who also maketh intercession for us.
30:25
So to me, it's, it's very secure in my mind to trust that Jesus
30:32
did indeed die on the cross for my sins.
30:34
And he did rise again. And he is sitting at the right
30:38
hand of the Father right now and making intercession for me as a
30:44
believer and follower of Jesus. And so that that gives me great
30:49
assurance, right? And then it just goes on there
30:53
about who can separate us from the from the love of Christ and
30:57
any of these things. But I like what it says in verse
31:01
37. It says nay and all these
31:03
things. We are more than conquerors
31:06
through him, through Christ that loved us.
31:11
So I think that is the the key, like you guys were saying, is
31:14
that why did what's what's so hard about just believing in the
31:20
finished work of Christ and and standing and putting our faith
31:23
in that and continuing to believe that until Jesus comes
31:29
back where we die, right? Yeah, that's right.
31:33
Yeah. I mean the, the, the the whole
31:35
verse there is is kind of a question like he's asking is can
31:39
can this separate us? Can that?
31:41
The answer is obviously he doesn't really answer it, but
31:45
the implication is that absolutely not.
31:47
Yeah. Yeah, The, the the people who
31:53
are very, very strong on conditional security tend to
31:57
argue in their minds the whole time while they're reading a
32:00
passage like this because they're so afraid that somebody
32:02
might get security that shouldn't have security.
32:06
I don't think that's, again, what this passage is for.
32:08
This passage is designed to give us complete and utter security.
32:13
Nothing, nothing can separate us like he.
32:15
He gives a list that is so exhaustive that you couldn't
32:18
even think of anything else to add in there.
32:20
But a conditional securitist will say, Oh no, but you could
32:24
separate you. And I know I'm starting to sound
32:26
like a one say'd always say kind of person here, but this, that's
32:31
what these verses do to you. And same with the last one we
32:34
spoke of it. It's the reason why we have
32:36
eternal life is because we're one with Jesus.
32:39
Are you going to stop being one with Jesus?
32:41
He's going to RIP you out of Christ somehow here he says
32:44
nothing shall separate us from the love of God, which is in
32:47
Christ Jesus. And so this is an absolute utter
32:50
security kind of passage. And I don't think we should be
32:54
arguing it. And I and I think someone who
32:56
believes in conditional security should come to this text and not
33:01
mention conditional security. They should just preach it as it
33:05
sits and give the people who are hearing it absolute certainty
33:11
that, hey, it's OK. Nothing, nothing that comes in
33:14
my life is ever going to dissuade me from this truth.
33:17
Nothing's going to push me one way or the other.
33:19
I am firmly gripped by Christ and I'm never going to fall away
33:24
from this thing. And that should be where we
33:26
leave it. The one thing about Romans 11,
33:30
and I don't think it necessarily takes away from the argument at
33:32
all. Romans 11 to me is very much a
33:34
national thing where God tore away the Jewish nation, not
33:39
Jewish people. Jewish people could still be
33:41
saved. And one day if the the Gentile
33:44
nations reject Christ, I believe he's going to pull the Gentile
33:47
people away and he's going to then turn back to the Jews.
33:51
So I, I don't think it's an individual salvation thing in
33:53
that passage, but there's plenty of other passages that say very
33:57
similar things that if we don't continue in the faith grounded
34:00
and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel
34:03
that there's nothing for us, right?
34:05
So there's a lot of passages that will teach that.
34:08
But once more, I would just like to say that this verse shouldn't
34:11
be corrected. It shouldn't be balanced.
34:14
It should say exactly what it says, and it should give utmost
34:18
security to believers. I think that's wisdom right
34:22
there. That's that is plum good,
34:24
Andrew. Yep, that's where that's where I
34:27
want to stand. Like that's why I don't
34:31
understand why it's threatening to that security when someone
34:38
says, hey, if you go after this, then you're not of the gospel.
34:41
Like if you go get circumcised or you go like Paul, all those
34:45
exhortations to not become a Judaizer or not become a law
34:50
minded or to not start having confidence in the flesh.
34:53
If you become in the spirit or you're not perfected by the
34:55
flesh, I don't understand why that's a threat to my security.
34:59
It just strengthens the security I have in Christ.
35:02
I am so complete and so secure in Christ that he's saying, you
35:06
look, if we go try to do something to earn it, then
35:09
you're walking away from that security, which just strengthens
35:13
the security. To me, that means that he is so
35:16
confident, so sure of the work of Christ that if you go outside
35:21
of that, then you're not embracing the that security.
35:25
So I don't know, maybe I'm not understanding where people are
35:31
coming from, but those warnings just make me more secure in
35:35
Christ, not less. I don't understand that.
35:37
That's where I get lost. It's like, why is a challenge to
35:42
continue with Christ insecure? That just strengthened my
35:46
security. That just resolves me more that
35:49
he's the answer because he's saying, look, he's not there.
35:51
It's not over here, it's not over there.
35:52
It's Christ and that's where my security is at.
35:56
I will not I can fully rest in that.
36:00
It's it's a full complete security and I don't really know
36:04
what else to say about it. I think the challenge.
36:07
Like, why would you want to know?
36:08
Why do you want to know that if you can lose it, like, like,
36:11
what do you got in mind here, you know?
36:14
Yeah. I think the challenge some of
36:16
these people would have is, has there ever been moments when
36:19
you're not completely confident? When you have questions, when
36:22
you doubt sometimes, what about those moments?
36:25
Are you lost at those moments when you have some questions,
36:28
when you're not fully sure? What if a St. a believer goes
36:32
through a a drought and they just feel kind of depressed and
36:35
anxious and they're not sure about what God has done?
36:38
Should we be preaching to them? Well, then you're lost because
36:41
you're not believing. Or should we be preaching to
36:42
them, hey, there's security in Christ, Look, look to Jesus,
36:46
right? I would 100% say that, see, the
36:50
Bible doesn't teach if you have a drought or if you're slow or
36:52
whatever, or if you're in a cold spell that that you're departed
36:56
from the faith. It says if you'd go and do other
37:00
means to be justified where you're in danger.
37:03
Amen. Very well said.
37:05
You got to. You got to follow the word.
37:08
Yeah, that's good. And, and what you were saying,
37:11
Dan and Andrew there, the the Bible by and large, doesn't use
37:18
scare tactics to try to keep us in the faith.
37:20
It teaches us the love of God. It teaches us, you know, who
37:24
Christ is for us and those kind of things that we can believe on
37:27
and be strengthened and, and be drawn to him rather.
37:34
All right, let's go to Philippians 1/6 is another one
37:42
that again I mean, and and maybe this is kind of redundant, but I
37:46
just want to see what what some of these verses say.
37:50
I think this is a a good exercise for any any believer.
37:54
Philippians 16 says being confident of this very thing
37:58
that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it unto
38:04
the day of Jesus Christ. And I know, you know, it's kind
38:08
of to to really get the the gist of a verse to just read that one
38:15
verse is actually kind of dangerous in a lot of ways.
38:17
But without the context, it's, it's really hard to even even
38:23
really know what it's saying for sure.
38:25
But any, any comments on that at all, Melvin?
38:29
Well, if you back up a little bit, it's he's obviously talking
38:33
like in verse 5, he says for your fellowship in the gospel
38:36
from the first day until now. So he's being confident of this
38:41
very thing that he which has the gone of good work and you will
38:45
perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
38:49
So he's obviously talking about the gospel about Jesus dying and
38:53
resurrecting again. But I guess for myself again, it
38:58
just makes me more have more assurance or be confident,
39:04
right. He says that that you will that
39:08
he had hath begun a good work and you will perform it until
39:12
the day of Jesus Christ. It's not like we have to do
39:16
something or like this like you were saying Andrew this once
39:20
saved always saved it. They say that well, if you're
39:24
not actually saved. If you are actually saved,
39:26
you're going to have good fruits, while that's kind of
39:29
putting. The.
39:31
Responsibility on you. It's works in my opinion, right
39:35
here. This verse is very painy saying
39:37
that it's not us that performs the good work.
39:40
We're just like vessels that are doing the good work and it's
39:44
Christ in US actually that is doing the good work, not us
39:48
ourselves. And so I guess it just again,
39:52
this verse just makes me have jump for joy, right?
39:56
I read that that's what it should be doing, what the
39:59
scriptures should be doing, instead of trying to find
40:03
scriptures that back up what I might think or what I might
40:08
believe and then you miss. The actual what the scripture is
40:13
actually saying, I think that's what's really dangerous about
40:16
this so. Yeah, I mean, you look at the
40:19
you look at the context in this particular verse, it's the
40:23
typical Paul fashion of addressing a church.
40:27
I mean, he's right in the middle of it there.
40:29
Thank God of his remembrance sort of, you know, he's just
40:32
going through that like he always does.
40:34
And and so even it even Paul's method of addressing somebody is
40:40
to to shower them into the the blessing of God there.
40:44
Amen. There is obviously a place for
40:48
you to examine yourselves to see whether you be in the faith.
40:53
This verse, even in Philippians, might be one of those.
40:56
Because he says, being confident of this very thing, he which
41:00
hath begun a good work in you. So my question would be, has He
41:04
actually begun a good work in you?
41:06
Because if he has begun a good work in you, he's not going to
41:08
stop working yet like that. That is a confidence that we
41:11
have. He's not going to lose us.
41:14
He's not going to forget what he said to us.
41:16
He's not going to go back on what he said to us.
41:19
And so if he began a good work in you, he's going to continue
41:22
to perform it until the day of Christ Jesus.
41:24
Even one of the most comforting verses it says in oh shoot, I
41:29
can't think of the exact reference now, but he says that
41:32
God has given us his spirit. We should not grieve the Spirit
41:36
of God whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
41:40
So we have a spirit in us that gets grieved when we sin, but he
41:44
doesn't leave us like that. To me that's very comforting.
41:48
Like I, I don't want to grieve him because I know he's not
41:50
going anywhere and I don't want him to be miserable for the next
41:53
30 years. So I'm going to try to walk in
41:56
such a way where he doesn't have to be grieved by my actions
41:59
because he's never going to leave me, right.
42:01
And so again, another one in, in Philippians 2 the next chapter
42:05
over, he says in verse 13, for it is God which worketh in you
42:09
both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
42:12
There's a lot of confidence in that to know that the good work
42:15
that God is doing in my life is actually God working in my life.
42:18
You know, it's not me trying to perform something and God's
42:21
going to continue to work in my life.
42:24
And then there's passages like Colossians 212, which we just
42:27
recently went through, buried with him in baptism, wherein
42:30
we're also risen with him through the faith of the
42:32
operation of God who have raised him from the dead.
42:35
So we're talking about this stuff as though it's complete
42:38
and it's done. What, where are you?
42:40
Well, I'm seated with Christ in the heavenly places.
42:42
Well, you think you're going to somehow jump off that throne and
42:45
get out of Christ and get back down to earth and, and lose your
42:48
salvation? No, I, I, we're completely
42:51
secure. I'm I'm already baptized into
42:53
Jesus. So again, lots of confidence in
42:56
these verses. And then?
42:59
Yep, Andrew, Yep. I, I love it.
43:02
I mean, everything is Paul writes is to reinforce our
43:06
security in my mind. But you're you're dealing with a
43:09
dilemma here. Let's say you have a problem
43:14
that God has. What I was trying to say earlier
43:18
in the beginning was, let's say you have the scenario where you
43:21
have performed a way to deliver your people and some people
43:25
believe it and some say they believe it, but then they
43:28
believe something else that is not the truth.
43:30
How would you deal with that then?
43:33
Would you tell them, you know, you guys got it, but you're
43:35
getting hung up. God always cuts it clean and
43:39
says, you know what? You're not you, you left.
43:41
What was the answer? That's I think a good
43:43
exhortation. If you're not saved and you've
43:49
been acting all along and then now you're enticed by some other
43:52
religion, it's good for you to hear that you're not you're not.
43:58
You never trusted the gospel. You you're lost.
44:02
So that's a good argument. Like if you're not, if you were
44:05
saved, you would have been wise or you would have woke up.
44:07
You will realize your peace is gone, your joy is gone.
44:10
Why am I not free? Why am I not feel like I'm in
44:13
bondage? Why am I looking at myself to
44:15
see and measuring myself? Then you realize that you've
44:19
you've erred from the faith and you need to be reminded of your
44:24
security and and repent. Maybe get saved.
44:28
I don't know. That's a good argument.
44:30
Lost people go after other doctrines.
44:32
Maybe that's a good that's fine, but another good argument
44:39
against the ones saved. Always saved as far as like, oh,
44:42
we've been already been crucified.
44:43
We've already been baptized. How can you get uncrucified?
44:46
How can you get unbaptized? How you can get unsanctified?
44:49
How can you get unreconciled? I can all that be reversed.
44:54
What if it's kind of like the process of the best wine?
44:59
It took maybe years to get that wine to perfection.
45:04
The process of the grapes and the crushing and the fermenting,
45:07
the whole process. But for me to get that wine,
45:10
it's just simple reaching out and get it.
45:12
It's already a work that has already been completed.
45:14
It's already done. It's ready for me to drink now.
45:18
I can either refuse that drink or accept that drink.
45:24
It doesn't change the process. The process has already
45:28
happened. That wine, the process is not
45:30
going to change based on whether I'm going to drink it or not.
45:33
So I believe more that we're saved by faith, not that process
45:38
doesn't happen or reoccur. The moment we believe that
45:41
process happened over years and years and years and then 2000
45:46
years ago it was came to fruition when he died and rose
45:50
again, that's when that process happened.
45:54
And now I'm challenged to believe in that process.
45:56
So me believing it doesn't make that process happen.
46:00
It's just means that I believe in the process.
46:03
I believe what happened. So mean all of a sudden not
46:06
believing it doesn't change the process either, right?
46:10
Right, yeah, when you were talking there, Andrew, I had to
46:14
think of Hebrews 41 says let us therefore fear lest a promise
46:18
being left of us left us of entering into his rest.
46:23
Any of you should seem to come short of it.
46:25
The works already done and finished.
46:28
The fear is that you would come short of it.
46:32
But you know, if there and, and the other thing about it is it's
46:36
a rest. You know, too many of us are
46:39
walking around on our tippy toes trying to make sure that we
46:42
don't fumble somewhere. And I have never been able to
46:46
rest standing like that. It's just it's impossible.
46:52
There's a complete rest in Christ, just nowhere else.
46:55
That's all we're saying. Yeah, exactly.
46:57
Yeah, that's what I said. Exactly.
46:59
The security of the believer, not the unbeliever, kind of,
47:04
Yeah, excellent. Let's let's hit along on this
47:06
other verse here. Let's go to Ephesians 11314
47:12
again, Paul's typical kind of introduction to the church there
47:19
at Ephesus says in whom you've also trusted.
47:23
After that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
47:26
salvation, in whom also after that you believed you were
47:31
sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of
47:35
our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased
47:39
possession unto the praise of his glory.
47:45
Yeah, that that sounds that I like it when you were sealed
47:49
with that Holy Spirit of promise.
47:51
Sounds pretty pretty rock solid to me.
47:55
Yeah, I remember the first time I read this verse from Ephesians
47:58
114. I was just like blown away like
48:02
that the Holy Spirit is a promise and earnest.
48:09
In other words, a down payment of our inheritance that when
48:13
Jesus comes back, we will receive or get that that he
48:20
comes for his possession, which is us.
48:22
But and I when I read that before the first time, this was
48:26
blown away like because the Holy Spirit is much more than just in
48:32
US and guiding us every day. But obviously he is our earnest
48:38
for the for glory someday with Christ and the verse 13 there it
48:45
says in whom also you trusted. After that you heard the word of
48:48
truth, the gospel of your salvation.
48:51
I think that's the key right there.
48:53
The gospel of your salvation. What is the gospel of your
48:56
salvation? Well, it's what Jesus has done
48:58
in in the finished work of Christ that the what he did on
49:02
the cross is complete. It's it's, it's enough.
49:05
It's done. That is the gospel of your
49:08
salvation. So I guess again, yeah, it's
49:12
just more of assurance in my mind, I guess.
49:18
I just, yeah, it it's so hard to to see, I guess, why you would
49:25
not trust and putting your faith in Christ.
49:30
Why doesn't that seem like assurance?
49:33
I guess I don't quite understand that because coming from, you
49:37
know, a very workspace religion, so to speak, what I grew up in a
49:46
lot of these like once saved, always saved, almost seems like
49:50
work, so to speak in my mind. So having faith, relying on your
49:57
faith in Christ and in Christ alone is for she wants to me in
50:02
my brain so. Right.
50:05
And it says after that you have believed you are.
50:07
So it gives us the denominator there really, really clearly.
50:10
Damn. Yup, you're muted.
50:17
I would say that if you read all of these passages and you give
50:21
as much benefit of the doubt to that view as you possibly can.
50:26
So let's say we have a really solid genuine believer, loves
50:29
the Lord of all his heart and he believes that this once said
50:33
always save kind of doctrine. And he reads these verses and he
50:37
just gets the confirmation that he wants from these passages.
50:40
I would say Amen. Like I agree with you
50:42
wholeheartedly, but exactly like Andrew said, the problem is when
50:47
you have people growing up under that doctrine and they are not
50:51
saved and yet they hold to these verses as if they are and
50:54
they're trusting and not even they're not even trusting in
50:56
Christ really. They're just living as the as if
50:59
everything is OK because they once made a profession.
51:03
And that's where the once saved, always saved doctrine becomes
51:06
very messy and dangerous. But anybody who is a true
51:10
believer who really studies the Bible and holds to one saved
51:13
always saved probably would just dismiss those people and say,
51:16
well, they're not really that good of Christians.
51:19
But under those churches, under those denominations, often very,
51:24
very much non believers get a lot of security from these
51:27
verses too. And they promote it, they
51:30
encourage it. They just say, hey, you know,
51:31
like, yeah, you might be in drunkenness now.
51:34
Yeah, you might be walking away from God right now.
51:37
You might not really have believed the gospel or read the
51:40
Bible or gone to church for the last 15 years.
51:43
But we know that God doesn't save any.
51:44
He's going to bring you slowly back.
51:46
And it's just this confidence in what?
51:48
What? What is your confidence in?
51:50
Your confidence is in a profession that you made and
51:52
your confidence is not in Christ.
51:54
And so to me, I would, I wouldn't be as uncomfortable
51:57
with a firm believer who believes once.
51:59
They'll always say that's fine to me because your trust is in
52:03
Christ. The problem, like Andrew said
52:05
before, is when you give confidence to those that are not
52:07
even actually. Believing, yeah, that's good,
52:11
Andrew. Yeah, I think I learned a lot
52:16
from this discussion and find out the highlight of it is the
52:19
fact that we're trying to, when we're trying to come up with a
52:24
stance where, OK, I'm of this camp or I'm not of that camp,
52:29
but let the word of God have its perfect will, his perfect work
52:32
in our lives. It's perfect.
52:35
And God didn't make a mistake by writing certain things a certain
52:40
way. And then also the other things.
52:42
If we read both, we will become sound believers.
52:46
We will be wise and we will be solid.
52:50
And part of this doctrine that we're talking about is can turn
52:58
into a little bit of a religion where, you know, they're not
53:00
even thinking it through because they'll say that you can never
53:05
lose it. But then they're adamant about
53:06
keeping short accounts and keeping your sins confessed.
53:09
Why? Like that tells me they don't
53:12
even believe what they're saying.
53:14
So it's just something comfortable, something nice to
53:17
say. Now there's a lot that are smart
53:19
in that and they that believe that and which I basically
53:23
believe in one say about to say it just as a believer, I'm not
53:30
going to try to justify someone that is completely has faith in
53:36
something else or not at all. And I'm going to say, well, he
53:40
he said a sinner's prayer 250 years ago.
53:44
So, you know, it's just let's not make a religion out of it,
53:50
like, or some doctrine that like, man.
53:54
Yeah. So see, when we focus so much on
53:57
the one, we can't hear the other, right?
53:59
Like we can't be sound. We can't see the full picture
54:03
and the full wisdom of God. If we're adamant about losing
54:07
it, then we can't be comforted with the security we have in
54:10
Christ. If we're adamant that we can't
54:12
lose it, then we can't hear the exhortation.
54:14
We block it out. Let's hear it all.
54:16
Let's embrace it. Let's be sound and true and
54:20
honest and good and no deceptiveness, no justifying, no
54:25
lying, no hypocrisy, none, none of that.
54:27
Let's be honest and real. And I think the word of God
54:30
would be that too. Yeah, no, I agree.
54:35
I agree with that, Andrea. That's that's good stuff.
54:40
I just, I just was thinking about in John where Jesus is
54:44
talking, He says, but the comforter, which is this in the
54:48
John 14 but the comforter talking about which is the Holy
54:52
Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name.
54:54
He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your
54:58
remembrance. Whatsoever I have said peace I
55:01
leave with you, My peace I give unto you not as a world giveth,
55:05
giveth unto you, and how your heart be troubled, neither let
55:09
it be afraid. You know He did give it.
55:12
He did equip us to be able to read the Word and know Him and
55:19
be and be blessed by it. That that is that is part of the
55:23
the Holy Spirit's job is to is to make The Word Alive in US.
55:28
Right, and I agree, Andrew, we, we start dividing and dismissing
55:37
when we start trying to find a camp to live in.
55:42
Really do I and I agree with you that that is actually kind of
55:45
the cap of this is that let's let's believe each of the
55:50
verses. Let's believe exactly what each
55:52
of the different teachers in the Bible here is talking about.
55:56
And and let it be at that. If, if some of it can't be fully
56:00
reconciled or reconciled in our mind, that's OK.
56:04
You know, there if you don't understand that you can ask
56:07
Jesus when you get there. He'll, he'll explain it fully,
56:10
fully. Then you know, the reality is we
56:12
are looking through a glass darkly.
56:14
The Bible tells us that we, we don't understand all of these
56:17
things 100%. And the danger is, is to start,
56:21
you know, taking away from the word in, you know, because of
56:27
another verse or another stance or something like that.
56:30
So let's not do that. I'm very encouraged about this
56:33
as well this morning, to just go ahead and be bold enough to
56:38
believe the word as it is written for us and let it stand
56:42
on on what it stands on. Any other closing thoughts that
56:47
you guys have on this? I know we didn't make it the
56:48
whole way through this. There's a couple more verses,
56:51
but we'll we'll get on those next week.
56:56
All good. I guess if you want to find fit
56:59
yourself into a camp, put yourself in the Bible believing
57:02
camp like we've said, right? Hey, man.
57:04
Hey man, that's that's good. I I agree with that 100%.
57:09
It's for certain not not taking away from the power of.
57:14
The word there's nothing that bothers me more is when we can
57:17
read something very clearly and say, well, that's not really
57:19
what it's saying because it doesn't fit our doesn't fit our
57:24
belief. And here you have obviously two
57:27
different challenges. You have to challenge or
57:30
believing that you're understanding the work of Christ
57:33
and how secure it is, but then you also have the challenge of
57:35
people going after other doctors and he's telling them, I don't
57:39
know how else would you say that you're not of the faith?
57:41
He doesn't explain himself and say, OK, at this point you're
57:45
losing it or maybe you're lost or not or whatever it's like to
57:49
me, I don't know why we need that answer, whether you can
57:53
lose it. I just want to know the answer.
57:56
Where's my security? I I know to even think about
57:59
losing. You ever wake up in the morning?
58:01
OK, today I'm not going to lose like, all right, If I knew I
58:04
can't lose it today, I'll be good.
58:06
I don't even think that. I just know that it's like, I
58:10
don't have to think like, man, am I good today?
58:13
Oh, yeah, that's right. I am good because I can't lose
58:15
it. Yeah, it's just a full, full,
58:20
full salvation, a full confidence.
58:23
But all right, we'll, we'll pause it there for this week and
58:27
we'll go back and and talk about it.
58:29
There's there's a lot more to this, this subject for sure.
58:36
I think it's going to be interesting as we go through
58:38
some of the other camps and reconcile it to the word of God.
58:44
I think it could be a blessing. So all right, thanks for being
58:48
on here this morning, guys. Appreciate it.
58:50
I know some guys text me here and said the the link, the
58:53
typical link doesn't work. So we'll have to get that fixed
58:56
so they can listen in live next week.
58:59
So anyway, Wednesday morning week from the day, we'll be back
59:03
at it and we'll discuss some more of these verses that that
59:06
seem problematic, but they're actually not.
59:08
They're actually a real blessing.
59:09
So God bless you guys. Have a good week and we'll see
59:12
you in a week. Thank you.