Latest / Hormone Heroes with Dr. Kelly Hopkins / Overcoming Recurrent Miscarriage & Low Egg Quality: An Integrative Fertility Approach with Mike Berkley

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Overcoming Recurrent Miscarriage & Low Egg Quality: An Integrative Fertility Approach with Mike Berkley · Hormone Heroes with Dr. Kelly Hopkins

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Hormone Heroes, where I share testimonials from real people who have experienced bioidentical hormone therapy.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Men and women share the symptoms they have experienced and the difference proper hormone replacement has made.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, dr Kelly Hopkins, and I have been in the functional medicine space for over 30 years, with a focus on hormones for 20 years.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Please keep in mind this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Please consult with your physician or practitioner for medical advice.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Let's get started with today's guest.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Hi and welcome to the podcast.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Today we have a very special guest and it's kind of out of our norm, but this is Mike Berkley.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: He is the founder and director of the Berkley Center for Reproductive Wellness in Manhattan.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: He is a licensed and board-certified acupuncturist and herbalist and he has had his clinic for 25 years and he specializes in fertility challenges.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome, mike.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: It's just a pleasure to be here, Ellie.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: So, Mike, tell us a little bit more about yourself.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: Are you a native New Yorker?
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I have been here for 58 years yeah, I've been here pretty much my whole life and I'd like to find an exit strategy, but that's not apparently going to happen tomorrow, but it's something I'm looking forward to doing.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: That sounds so romantic to me to live in New York City.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I visited.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: It's not.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: It's not Trust me.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I have a son that's going to NYU, so I'll be up there next weekend actually, but I've lived in Texas and Arkansas my whole life, so I just get to visit.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Well, you're in God's country and I tell you one of my fantasies.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: For years I wouldn't even know where to go, but I'd call you and ask you.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: But one of my fantasies has been to go to Texas to have the best possible Texas barbecue that I could cook.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, I could hook you up.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love good barbecue and it's hard to get.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: In Manhattan you can get it, but I'm sure it's as good as it is in Texas.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: So, Mike, tell us a little bit about your clinic.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Where are you located, first of all?
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: So I'm on East 40th Street in Manhattan.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: I'm between 5th and Madison Avenues.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Been in that building for 25 years.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: I've been in practice for about 27 years.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: I probably won't move to another building.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: This will be my last stop before I get off this train.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been in this location for a long time.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I'm in a beautiful part of town, you know, speaking about coming to see your son in NYU, he's down in the West Village and I'm in what's called Midtown East, so the area where my office is located is essentially a very high business area.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: You know it's where the cheapest lunch you can get, even if you get something this big.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: You know, between $1.95, it's just ridiculous.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Right, I usually try to stay somewhere in Midtown so I may try to look you up next weekend.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: So for the audience, let's pretend people don't know a thing about acupuncture.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Can you kind of walk us through what it is, how it works?
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: So I guess what I'm going to do is answer your question in the context of a woman, even though I treat men as well, but the majority of my patients are women.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: I'm going to answer your question in the context of treating a female patient because that will let me display how acupuncture can be of utility for this patient.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: So I have this is all make-believe.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: I have this patient.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: She's 40 years old, she has low ovarian reserve and poor egg quality and she's tried to conceive naturally for several years and she's gotten pregnant only to miscarry and she's done a few IUIs and they haven't worked.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: Explain what IUI is.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: Sorry, that's an intrauterine insemination.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: That's where the patient is given medicine to make her develop a follicle, then some more medicine to make her ovulate, and then the sperm is injected next to the fallopian tube, hopefully to fertilize the egg.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Then the egg becomes an embryo and implants in the uterus and voila, she's pregnant.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Wonderful Okay.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: This is low-tech.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: High-tech is more in vitro fertilization.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: This is where they give the patient medicine called gonadotropins to stimulate a lot of follicles Our follicles contain eggs and then these eggs are retrieved from the follicles and then the embryologists will take these eggs that are retrieved from the follicles and fertilize them with sperm.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Now you have an embryo, because when you mix sperm and egg you have an embryo.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: The embryo is frozen, or actually the embryos try to have the embryo survive for five days and then it's frozen and this is called the blastocyst, and a blastocyst, according to the literature, is a better quality embryo than a three-day embryo.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: Back in the day they used to do transfers on day three and today typically you're going to see an embryo transfer happen on day five and it's about between $15,000 and $25,000 per retrieval and transfer.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: It's a lot of money.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: So the patient goes in, she has a retrieval, she gets 10 eggs, five of them mature, out of the five that are mature, they're all tested with something called PGTA, which means pre-implantation testing for aneuploidy, meaning chromosomal problems.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: So they're testing the embryos to make sure that they're not chromosomally abnormal, because you wouldn't want to transfer that embryo.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: So one of three things happens she gets pregnant and has a baby.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Of course, this happens all the time.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: The other thing that can happen is they have a great embryo, no chromosomal abnormality, and they transfer it.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: She doesn't get pregnant.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: The third possibility is they have a great embryo, no chromosomal abnormalities, they transfer, she gets pregnant and she miscarries.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: So why is this happening?
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Now that is a huge question with multitudinous answers.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: But let's just go to the end of the funnel and say that it's poor egg quality, because a 38-year-old or a 40-year-old woman is typically going to have poor egg quality.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: This is just a fact of nature.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: It's a fact of life.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Now the listener might say but wait, you said that they tested the embryo for chromosomal abnormalities and there were none.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: So that must mean that the egg quality was good because it was a normal embryo.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: You can't get a normal embryo with a bad egg.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of partially true and I would understand that question.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: The trick is that there's more to a healthy embryo than a chromosomally normal embryo.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Let me give you an example.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: You see this man walking down the street and he's 240 pounds of pure, solid muscle.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: He's a drop-dead gorgeous guy right out of the movies and you're like man, that's a healthy hunk of man, except he's HIV positive or except he has hepatitis B or hepatitis C or he has pancreatic cancer.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: But you can't see it yet, because he's just this handsome, big, strong guy.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: And in many ways this guy is healthy.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: He's got huge muscles, he runs every day, his cardio is really good.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: So in certain ways he's healthy, in certain ways he's not, and that can manifest in an egg too.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Now getting to acupuncture.
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: Acupuncture is a great mechanism or a great device for improving hemodynamics to a specific area.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: So what that means in English is it means that acupuncture is very effective at increasing the delivery of blood to the tip of your nose or your right eye or the right upper part of your forehead because that's where you have a headache or to the ovaries, or to the testes, or to the uterus.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: And so what's the big deal?
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: What's the big deal?
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: So what?
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: So?
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: You're increasing blood flow to the ovary, so what?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: So what people need to understand is that blood is nothing other than a taxi cab.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Speaking about New York City and Texas as well, right Right, blood is nothing other than a taxi cab.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: So let me explain.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: During the time that you and I have been speaking, we have both been inhaling and exhaling.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Why do we do that?
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Here's why we do that Because every cell in the body needs to be oxygenated.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: It needs oxygen or else it will die, and so when we inhale, the inhalation goes through the lungs, blood picks up the oxygen.
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: The blood will deliver oxygen all through the body, including to the ovaries.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Now, why do we eat?
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Because our body, because we love food.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Because our body needs the nutrient product to survive and to thrive and to do well.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: So when you stimulate blood flow, remember we said we're increasing the delivery now of oxygen to the ovaries.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: That's a good thing.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Now we're increasing the flow of nutrient products from our food to the ovaries.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: So FSH and LH these are the hormones in the anterior pituitary in the brain that stimulate the development of follicles that contain eggs, and the LH has some participation in that as well, and the LH is also responsible for ovulation.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: How does the FSH and the LH get from the brain all the way downtown to the ovaries?
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Through the blood.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: So blood delivers hormones, nutrients, oxygen and electrolytes.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Now somebody could say, well, I could take a baby aspirin and improve my hemodynamics.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: That would be a truth, that would be completely accurate.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: However, the difference between taking a baby aspirin and doing acupuncture is that the acupuncture is meant to affect specific areas, either on or in the body, when taking a baby aspirin is just generally going to thin the blood a little bit and cause hyperstimulation or improve circulation, if you will.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: But acupuncture, specifically, will improve blood flow where you want to improve it.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: In my world it's either to the testes or the ovaries.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And now, so what to that?
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: So here's the so, what.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: The so what is that there were three things that live inside of each other.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: You have the ovaries, and what lives in the ovaries is the follicles.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: And what lives in the follicles is the eggs.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: If you can hyper deliver oxygen, nutrients, electrolytes and blood flow to the follicles, to the ovaries, to the eggs, you're going to end up not always, but in many cases with improved egg quality.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Let me just give you a different example.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: You have a garden out in your backyard and you have a lot of trees in the backyard and the trees are kind of covering this garden and the garden is surrounded by weeds.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: So the garden is not doing too well.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Now, what's up with the trees?
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Well, the trees are blocking the sunlight from the garden and the weeds are kind of competing for the nutrients that the garden should get.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Now, if you chop the tops of those trees off and you took away the weeds, two things would happen to that garden.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: It would get more sunshine and more water from the rain, and it would get more nutrient product, because there'd be no competition, or less competition because the weeds would be gone.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: So that garden would then be a beautiful, thriving, healthy garden.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of a good analogy for the egg quality or for sperm quality and that's how acupuncture works to improve fertility cases in those who are facing fertility challenges.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: That's just one way.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: There are many other ways.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: We could be on this podcast for hours, but just a real quick thing.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Another thing, just briefly.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: A patient has a history of endometriosis.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Endometriosis, for those of you who don't know, is when tissue from the uterus goes outside of the uterus and implants in different areas.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: It can implant on the bladder, it can implant in the diaphragm, it can implant in an area called the cul-de-sac, which is between the uterus and the I think the uterus and the rectum.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And you go in for a laparoscopy, which is a surgery, and the endometriosis is completely removed.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: And the patient is 30 years old and there's no male factor.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Sperm is perfect.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: She still can't get pregnant.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: No tubal problems, Right?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Why not?
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Because endometriosis is an inflammatory disease and the problem with endometriosis is this Endometriotic tissue doesn't look like normal tissue.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: It's either black or powder, burn or gray or red.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: So the surgeon's going to cut that out.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: However, the surgeon cannot take all of the endo out.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Why not Number one?
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Some endometriotic tissue looks exactly like normal tissue.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: So a surgeon is not going to look at normal tissue and say well, you know what there could be endometriosis Slice.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: The other thing is sometimes endometriosis is on areas that cannot be removed.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Let's say you have endometriosis on the ureters.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: The ureters are the tubes that connect the kidneys to the bladder.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: That's what sends the urine to the bladder.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: So when you pee, that's where the pee comes from.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: They're not going to touch the ureters.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: The ureters are as thin as a piece of spaghetti.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: If you have hand-held on the ureters, it's going to stay there because they don't want to cut the ureters and you'll have worse problems.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: So this patient who had endometriosis and who had a laparoscopy still can't get pregnant.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Now, when you utilize acupuncture and herbal medicine together, it significantly, and there were studies to attest to this.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: And I tell all patients the following Don't believe a word that I say, because obviously everything I say could be self-serving.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I want to sell acupuncture, I want to sell herbs, I want to sell myself.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: No, I don't.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I want to help you.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: But I tell patients, don't trust me, Google it.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: So acupuncture and herbs can very frequently though not always significantly, but not necessarily totally reduce or remove the inflammatory proteins that are still left even after a laparoscopy.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: Now the patient gets pregnant and stays pregnant.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: And it removes it via blood flow.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Increased blood flow.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: So herbal medicine is a very different ball of wax than acupuncture.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Acupuncture works from the outside in and herbs work from the inside out.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: So herbal medicine have properties in them that are anti-inflammatory, and I don't want to get too crazy here.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: But there's something that occurs when people have inflammatory processes going on, which is called reactive oxidative species, also known as free radicals.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: And if you have too much reactive oxidative species or too many free radicals, it's a very unhealthy.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: There's a war going on down in the uterus.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: It's bad news.
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: So the herbal medicine frequently regulates the reactive oxidative species with what's called antioxidant properties.
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: So now you can say well, I can buy a bottle of CoQ10.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Maybe that is antioxidant properties or vitamin E, but herbs you're taking, you know, 100 grams of customized herbs made specifically for the patient.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: We're talking about an endometriosis patient, but we could be talking about a polycystic ovarian syndrome patient.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: We could talk about a man who has poor morphology but good count, you know.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: We can talk about a woman who has no disease but she's 41 years old, she has low ovarian reserve and poor egg quality.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: So the herbs are going to be used in conjunction with the acupuncture to create the best environment the garden, remember the garden with the water and the leaves to create the best environment.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Lack of inflammatory proteins or reduction in inflammatory proteins.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Even though she doesn't have endometriosis, she can still have these inflammatory proteins.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: We all have inflammation.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Every time we have sugar it causes inflammation.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: So acupuncture herbs are very efficacious very frequently in helping the patient with fertility challenges.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: And my contention, fyi, is I totally believe in and fully support and fully respect in vitro fertilization.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: What I want to say is you don't win a war with just rifles, right?
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: If you go to Russia, the Ukrainians fight the Russians with just rifles.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: The Ukrainians are going to be wiped out in three hours.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: You need all kinds of weapons, so sometimes IVF is not enough.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So when you see that IVF isn't working, you have to say to yourself why not?
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: What are they doing in IVF?
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: They're taking an egg, they're fertilizing it with sperm and they're transferring it into the uterus.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: There's no attention paid to the quality of the lining of the uterus, known as the endometrium.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: There's no attention paid to the quality of the lining of the uterus, known as the endometrium.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: There's no attention paid to the quality of the eggs and there's no attention paid to the quality of the sperm, not because these aren't good, caring, loving, wonderful, brilliant doctors, but because that's not their thing.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: They were taught how to change a tire.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: They weren't taught how to fill up the tire Great analogy.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: My contention is that East meets West in reproductive medicine should be the gold standard.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: And I'll take it one step further East meets West in medicine should be the gold standard.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: I agree, I really do.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: So let's take it back a step For the people in the audience that know nothing about acupuncture.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Can you give us the mechanism of how it works?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Where you put the needle, how long is the treatment?
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Kind of get into the nitty gritty of that, if you don't mind.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, let's talk a little bit about how it works.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: I can't really exactly tell you how it works, but I'm going to tell you about a study that was done that will reveal all.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: So there's something called the uterine artery impedance index, and everybody who's listening, don't get nervous, I'm going to break it down.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Impedance, I believe, is a word that reflects resistance.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: The impedance level is how much resistance is being faced.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: So when you do a transvaginal ultrasound on a patient, you can see what the uterine artery impedance is, and what that means is how much blood flow is coming from the uterine artery flushing the uterus.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: And, by the way, the uterine artery at the end of it has these branches, these little fingers that attach to the ovaries.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: So the uterine artery is actually feeding and nourishing the ovaries as well.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: So, look, what one has to understand is the less impedance there is, the more blood flow there is.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: The higher the impedance, the lesser amount of blood flow there is.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: So they did a study.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: I don't remember the numbers, but it's not really relevant, it's the concept that's relevant.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: They did a transvaginal ultrasound on a bunch of women and they wrote down what the uterine artery impedance index was, the number.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: You know the number could be three and a half, it could be four, it could be five.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: It simply represents the patency of blood flow through the uterine artery After that when I say after that, I mean 15 minutes after that some acupuncture.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: People did acupuncture on these patients and then they left the needles in for 20, 25 minutes.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: They took the needles out Right away.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: The doctors did another transvagin ultrasound and the uterine artery impedance index.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I'm just making this up because I don't know the number, but it's feasible and viable and real.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: It went from five to three.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Four to two and a half Actually did the ultrasound.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So if anybody's listening that has had an ultrasound, you know that the monitor that the doctor looks at is black and white.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: It's gray, but these studies were done with what's called a color Doppler.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: So you do a transvaginal ultrasound with a color doppler.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: The monitor is color.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: It's like watching color TV.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: And when they did the transvaginal ultrasound with the color doppler before the acupuncture you could see little specks of red, little blips of red.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: That's blood.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: But then after the acupuncture, I mean I'm not going to be dramatic and say a quarter inch, because that would be ridiculous, but actually see a line, a red line, flowing through the uterus.
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: You could see for sure, undoubtedly increased blood flow in the uterine cavity.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: That's so cool.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really cool.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: So that in and of itself is kind of scientific data that supports the fact that acupuncture increases and improves blood flow.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: And so we know that it works directionally.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you how we know that.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Because if somebody fell down and hurt their elbow and they went for acupuncture, the acupuncturist would put needles around the elbow.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Now they may put needles in other places as well, but you just don't treat the area of treatment, but you do also treat the area of treatment.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So you're going to treat the elbow, and so why are you treating the elbow?
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Because you're trying to stimulate blood flow to the elbow.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: Because in the case of elbow problems or any kind of physical problems that's acute, you know, you fell down and you sprained your elbow, there's inflammation, and so when you put needles in that area, you're hoping to bring these T cells, these white blood cells, to come in and kind of attack or eradicate any bacteria, any infection, any propensity for infection, as well as to reduce inflammation, which then reduces pain and also increases range of motion.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: So we understand that acupuncture in fact works directionally.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Okay, what's the acupuncture scene?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: You come to my office.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: What do we do?
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: Right, that's what we want to know.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, let me start backwards.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Backwards looks like this when you get acupuncture, I put the needles and you're lying on the table for 20 minutes.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: I take the needles out and you go home.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: That's the end of the story.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Now I'm going to go to the beginning of the story.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: The beginning of the story is a new patient comes in.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: I've never seen this woman before.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: So she'll come into my office and I will do an extensive intake, meaning the intake itself can be up to an hour and a half and this intake.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Now listen, every acupuncturist, just like every physician, does an intake in a different way.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: They do it in their own way and they're looking for different things.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: My intake, I was going to say it's not the same as other acupuncturists, but I don't really know that because I don't know what other acupuncturists are doing.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: I'll simply say this my intake is comprised of about 50-50 Chinese medicine to Western medicine.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: So I'll give you an example.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I have a patient again, this is make-believe she comes in, she tells me that she has a history of endometriosis.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: She had a laparoscopy.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: Her tubes are scarred, so both of the tubes had to be removed.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: She started a couple of IVFs.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: She got pregnant each time, but miscarried.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking the following I'm thinking this Endometriosis is an autoimmune disorder.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: So I will say to the patient Nancy, have you ever been tested for other autoimmune issues?
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Oh no, I haven't, mike.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: So I will write a requisition for an rip, which does not mean rest in peace, it means the reproductive immunophenotype panel.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Now, obviously this is all western medicine.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: So I'm going to send the patient for this rip test and when a test is going to come back and it's going to say she has lupus-like anticoagulant or she has activated natural killer cells or she has something called methylene tetrahydrofolate reductase.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: These are immunological issues that are either going to prevent pregnancy or cause miscarriage.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: So what do I do with the patient in that case?
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I send the patient to a physician, a Western medical physician, to be treated.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: But remember maybe I didn't say this, but I'm just making this up as I go along this patient is 39 years old, so I'm going to send her to the doctor, the medical doctor, to deal with the immunological issues that can be causing either infertility or recurrent miscarriage.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: But then they continue to treat her to help improve the egg quality and maybe the lining quality if it needs improving.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I'm ascertaining.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I'm getting all this information and then part of my questioning will be has your husband had a semen analysis?
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, he has, it's all fine, great.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: By the way, how old is your husband?
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: He's 43.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, great.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: I want your husband to have a test that he has not had.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: No doctor will ask for this test.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Why won't they ask for the test?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I haven't the slightest idea, but I have gotten hundreds of men where it was just thought to be female factor and when they do a semen analysis they test for count, volume, motility and morphology.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: That's pretty much it.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: The shape of the sperm, can it slim in a straight line, how much is ejac and how much sperm per milliliter exists in the ejaculate.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: But there's something called sperm DNA fragmentation, and if a man has sperm DNA fragmentation over 29%, two things happen.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Number one it will not ever penetrate an egg.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: So not only does she have bad egg quality because she's 39, but his sperm couldn't penetrate the egg of a 30-year-old woman.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: And the doctors will say don't worry about it, we'll do ICSI.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Icsi is I-C-S-I, intracytoplasmic sperm injection.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: What does it mean in English?
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: It means we're going to take the egg and we're going to take the sperm that has DNA fragmentation of 50% in a syringe and we're going to stick the syringe in the egg and we're going to push the sperm into the egg.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: So what I want to say is usually you end up with a bad embryo, though interesting not always, but usually or frequently.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: And at this point I'm saying to the woman your husband needs to come in and see me as well.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: So I'm getting a lot of Western medical information and a lot of Chinese medical information and I'm putting all of this stuff in the pot and I stir up the pot and I have this meal.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: And what is the meal?
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: The meal is the diagnosis.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: And then in Chinese medicine you have what's called a pattern of disharmony that's the Chinese term for diagnosis and then you have something called the treatment principle.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: So first you arrive at the pattern of disharmony, then you write down the treatment principle, and then you go and you start treating the patient, and that's the beginning.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: And then I see the patient twice per week until she's pregnant.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Once pregnant, I see her twice per week for 13 weeks and I let her go.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: Why 13 weeks and not 12 weeks and not 20 weeks?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Because 90% of miscarriages happen by or before week 12.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: So if I can get my patient to week 13, 99.9% of those patients are going to have a baby.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: Wow, so do you have a wall of children?
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Pictures of children.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: It's a good question, an interesting question.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: I have a funny answer for you.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I don't, but I did, and I shared a floor at one time with a friend of mine in this office building.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: He was a reproductive endocrinologist and he was right next door to me.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: So we would talk all day and we'd send patients back and forth.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: And I was there first.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: He was looking for space and I said Joel, somebody just moved out on my floor, take my space, you take the space here.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: So he moved in and when he came in, my entire hallway had pictures of babies and letters from patients.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: And then Joel at some point said to me that some company I don't remember if it was, what's this big fertility?
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: These big fertility organizations?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Resolve is a big fertility organization.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: There was some organization that said through a study that they did that patients that are having a hard time getting pregnant don't want to see babies on the wall.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: It makes them feel bad.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: So Joel sent to me Mike, I recommend that you take the pictures down and we just, you know, paint the walls and you know we'll have somebody pull out the nails and fix the wall.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: So I did.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: So no more pictures, and that's why.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: In one way it would be inspirational.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: That's what I thought and give people hope, but I understand the other side of that as well.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: So how hard is it to get into you, Mike?
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: It?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: takes years.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: It takes years.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: No, it's not hard.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can see somebody within two weeks.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, so if someone needed to travel in to see you all, that could be arranged.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, I wouldn't even recommend that because the stress of the traveling is just not worth it.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: There's an organization and, with your permission, I'll give you the organization.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what it is.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Is that all right?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely yeah.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: So I'll give you the website and then I'll tell you what the organization is.
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: The website is abormorg applebakerorangerobertmichaelorg.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: That's the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: Now, this is a board that you have to take a test for.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Let me tell you a funny story.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: So when this board was first developed I don't know when it was 10, 13, 15 years ago the guy who started it we became friendly and I had to sit to the board, even though we were friends.
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: I wasn't just going to pass me through.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I didn't study for four minutes.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, I can sit and have a conversation for three hours of the reproductive endocrinologist.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: There was no reason for me to study at all.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: So, urban New York City I flew to I don't remember where it was, it might've been Chicago and I sat there with about 25 people and took this test and I think I passed the test.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: But I think I passed it.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: I think passing was like 75 and I think I got a 76.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: And I was like man, you gotta be kidding me, come on.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: And he's like I'm serious.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: I said, come on, man.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: He's like no, no, no, I'm serious.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: The reason I'm saying this is to let the listeners know that the people that belong to this organization know their stuff.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: They're not getting into this board, they're not going to be board certified with the ABORM if they don't know.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: So if you want an acupuncturist to treat you for fertility reasons, go to the abormorg and type in your zip code.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if you live in Texarkana, arkansas or Houston, texas.
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: You type in your zip code and one person, or 10 people, either in your neighborhood or two miles away, will pop up.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Wonderful.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we would all like to be able to see you.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it may be hard to see you twice a week for 13 weeks if you live somewhere else.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: How very interesting.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: So, Mike, what else would you like the listeners to know?
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: What have we not touched on?
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I think we've touched on a lot, but I want to touch on something briefly.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: That's not really about acupuncture, herbal medicine.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: This is what I want to touch upon.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I have heard this for years and I want to repeat it to you and to the listeners and when I say the listeners, I'm really referring to listeners who have faced this fertility challenge with fertility channel.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: So I've heard this for years.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: What have I heard?
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: This Patients on my table and she says you know, I was coming over here and I saw this mom walking down the street with the baby carriage and, you know, the baby in there and the baby was crying and the mother stopped and gave the baby milk and it just made me feel so happy for the woman but terrible for me, for myself.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And I said to this woman as I've said to many women who have brought this up and many women have, I've said let me explain something to you, mary.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: One day you're going to be walking down the street with a baby carriage and your baby's going to be crying and you're going to give that baby a bottle of milk and somebody that you're not going to be aware of this will be seeing, you will be visualizing you.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: That person will be facing fertility problems and they will be thinking about you and feeling the heartache that you're feeling when you're looking at them.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: So the message that I want to deliver is don't lose hope, have faith.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: If you're religious, have faith in God.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Whether you're religious or not, have faith in science, western medical science, utilize acupuncture and herbs.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: One thing I want to say that's very, very important.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: This is really important.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: If a woman is trying to get pregnant or a couple is trying to get pregnant anybody's trying to get pregnant they don't go to a chiropractor, they don't go to a foot doctor and they don't go to a hairstylist.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: They either start out going to a gynecologist for intrauterine inseminations and get pregnant, and that's the end of the story, or they end up going to a reproductive endocrinologist for in vitro fertilization.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: If you're going to get acupuncture for fertility purposes, do not go to a man or a woman that spends nine hours a day for the last eight years or the last year treating neck and back pain because they don't know a thing about a thing.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: So go to somebody who knows.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: That's why I'm pushing the ABORM, okay.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: So you're able to look up specialties via their website?
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, everybody that's a member of the ABORM is a fertility acupuncturist Okay.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Everybody that's a member of the ADLM is a fertility acupuncturist Okay.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Like, wherever you live in Texas, if you put in your zip code of the ADLM and four people come up, those are all highly experienced acupuncturist herbalists who just do fertility work.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for that.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a big difference.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: That's a very important message.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: But getting back to my previous message, it's this Don't lose hope.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Most women end up getting pregnant.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Now, listen, not every woman gets pregnant.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: This is just the way it is.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Not everybody.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: It's unfortunate.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: Not everybody's going to have a baby, or you can forget it and that's the end of it.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: But I want to remind the world, I want to remind the listeners that Celine Dion now I realize that none of us, or most of us I can't be presumptuous and say none of us, most of us I don't have Celine Dion's money, but Celine Dion did 10 IVFs.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Wow, I didn't realize that Before she got pregnant and had a baby, or two or three babies or whatever, she had.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: Robert De Niro and one of his women, older, had babies through in vitro fertilization and many, many, many other stars and everything.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: So today the science is great, the acupuncture and the herbs are great, the knowledge base is great.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Don't lose hope.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: If you get pregnant and you miscarry, you have to say look, let me tell you something.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: I'm a fight fan and I used to love to watch Mike Tyson and he's getting ready to do a fight again.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: You know, most fighters lose in their career at some point Mike Tyson lost.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: It's not about getting knocked down, it's about getting back up.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Even if you get pregnant and you miscarry.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I realize it's a gut-wrenching, heart-rending, terrible scenario.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to minimize it in the least, but remember, get back up and fight the good fight and you'll probably be okay.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: That's the message I want to give.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, Mike, you are a hormone hero.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you coming on today.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Can you give us a little information about your website, your phone number, anything like that where to find you?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: That's so kind of you and thank you so much again for having me on.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: You've been a lovely host and it's just I felt so comfortable here being with you and I want to thank you for that.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: So my website is berkeleycentercom.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: It's just I felt so comfortable here being with you and I want to thank you for that.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: So my website is berkeleycentercom.
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: It's B-E-R-K-E-L-E-Y or center berkeleycenter, c-e-n-t-e-r berkeleycentercom, and my phone number is 212-685-0985.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: And what I want to say to any of the listeners is the following that if you guys have questions about anything, I'm happy to take your call.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to charge you any money, you know, and I'm happy to answer your questions, and I can't sit on the phone with you for two hours, but I won't rush you off the phone in two minutes.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: So if you have questions, give me a call.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I'm happy to try to help, because that's what I want to do.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: I want to help people and it'd be my pleasure to do so.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: That's very generous of you, mike.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Well, it's been a great pleasure and I might ping you when I'm there next week.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Well, I would love it.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: I'd love to meet you in person.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: All right, thanks, mike.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: My pleasure.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much again for having me on.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: I'm very grateful.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Hormone Heroes.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Take a moment to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss the next episode.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: While you are there, help us spread the word by leaving a rating and a review.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: If you would like to share your bioidentical hormone story or need help finding a physician in your area, please email us at drkelly at hormoneheroesorg, that's d-r-k-e-l-l-y.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: At h-o-r-m-o-n-e-h-e-r-o-e-s dot org.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: We want you to be a hormone hero.