Latest / The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine / Jason Ikeler: What Happened to Contemporary Christian Music?

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Jason Ikeler: What Happened to Contemporary Christian Music? · The BlackSheep Podcast: Presented by HM Magazine

0:21
Antiquing. All right, today we've got Jason Eichler with us, and Jason
0:34
is a filmmaker and is uh set to very soon release a documentary called Safe
0:41
for the Whole Family, and we're so excited to chat more about the documentary.
0:46
So the documentary is basically all about kind of like the CCM world,
0:51
the Christian music world, which obviously, if you've listened to this podcast long
0:54
enough, you know, like Colin and I grew up in that world,
0:57
obviously grew up more in like the alternative stuff. And I'm sure we'll talk
1:00
a little bit about some of that, like the difference between like kind of
1:03
the mainstream CCM world versus like the alternative stuff and all of that. But
1:07
we're super super excited to chat with you. Jason. How are you doing
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today? Living in Brooklyn? Got a big rainstorm. It looks like right
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now, it looks like you're drinking like some sort of fun little cocktail of
1:18
some storking whiskey in the rain. Thank you for having me excited to chat
1:22
with you. Guys. I was listening to a bunch of episodes today and
1:23
like, oh, this will be this will be fun. Well, we
1:26
try, we try to keep it at least not boring. We don't have
1:30
a high bar set, but we at least try to keep great. By
1:34
the way, what whiskey you're drinking? Culin and I'm Colin's more of a
1:38
whiskey connoisseur than I am, but just out of curiosity. So my husband's
1:42
the whiskey connoisseur. This is just four roses, so beautiful, mession,
1:46
too fancy, but it gets the job done. I can get the job
1:49
done. Yeah. I bought some bourbon the other day and made myself a
1:52
little old fashioned but with honey. I thought that would be a little on
1:55
twist and it worked out pretty well. I should try that. Yeah,
2:00
So if you don't have any like cane sugar laying around, just try some
2:02
honey. Yeah, and you support the beep straight whiskey, but you know,
2:07
yeah, there you go, seven o'clock. Hey, I'm there right,
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not just kidding exactly exactly way out there in New York. Well,
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let's talk about the documentary before we kind of get into like some of the
2:19
things you learn and all I know, you're kind of in this like editing
2:21
process. So it hasn't been like released yet, but it's coming out very
2:24
very soon. But let's talk talk a little bit about kind of the backstory
2:29
of the documentary. So, yeah, what got you really interested in wanting
2:32
to make a film about the CCM world. Yeah. So I grew up
2:38
free Methodist and was not allowed to listen to secular music as they call it
2:42
growing up, and so Christian music was like my life and like the pop
2:46
stuff like plus one Staceyurico Royal was obsessed with it all. And then I
2:53
came out in college and sort of like, I think a lot of queer
2:55
people in the church are like myself or the church and chose myself and so
3:00
I honestly hadn't really looked back on it at all, other than Stacey Rico
3:06
did continue to listen to her. But I feel like in pop culture right
3:09
now, we're kind of re evaluating like how we treated young women in the
3:14
nineties and early two thousands, like the Lindsay Lohans and the Paris Hiltons of
3:17
the world. And I was like, why hasn't someone done that, like
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honestly in Christian music, because I imagine like fame plus faith and religion and
3:27
money and all of that, it's probably even more complicated than just the regular
3:30
fame. So back in January, I just started dming all of like my
3:34
favorite artists growing up, and I was like, hey, you want to
3:36
make a movie? And they were all like ninety percent of the people I
3:39
reached out to wanted to talk and wanted to do it, and they all
3:44
had. It was cool to see because I really hadn't looked into what they
3:47
were doing, but they all had really cool stories to tell. And then
3:51
I think, as a queer person, you're also like, are you affirming?
3:54
Are you going to be in QAnon? Like you don't what you get
4:00
And so they were all like very open to talk, and I think a
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lot of them hadn't really talked about it publicly or some of the struggles publicly,
4:09
so it felt like a good vehicle for them to sort of share their
4:11
story. And so yeah, one artist led to the next, and they've
4:16
all sort of been like, Oh, you should talk to this person.
4:18
Let me introduce you to this person. And so now we've got like sixty
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plus hours of footage that we're trying to cut down to ninety minutes, which
4:26
is the easiest thing to ever do in the world, right exactly exactly,
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So something I'm curious about that there is did you go in with it with
4:35
like a hypothesis in mind that like, hey, this is the story I
4:39
want to tell, or did you kind of let it, you know,
4:42
tell its own its own story through these different vehicles. It's interesting. I
4:46
think if I would have tried to make this like five or ten years ago,
4:49
it would have been completely different than like what came out of it.
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Where I feel like now, after like years of therapy and all of that,
4:58
I'm in more of, like I think, a nuanced place looking back
5:00
at everything. And so I did just kind of get into it wanting to
5:02
tell the truth, and that truth is different for everybody involved in it.
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But I didn't want to go into it with like any sort of agenda or
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like let's get into the dark side of CCM. And I think growing up
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in it, like, yes, there were some pretty dark things that happened,
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but it was really fun and it was cool and nostalgic, and so
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I wanted to make sure we're you know, we're telling the truth and we're
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telling it in an honest way. But the goal is not to be divisive
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like that you said, like ten years ago would have been different what would
5:33
it have been ten years ago had you not gone through therapy. I think
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I was very angry at the church and the people in it, and it
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maybe would have been more of a take on Christianity and religion. And it's
5:47
not bad at all. It's a take on like what the music industry was
5:50
like for the artists in it. But I think as you get older,
5:54
too, it's more like, I think people make the best decisions they can
5:59
make given the knowledge that they have, from the tools that they've been given.
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And so I think understanding that when you're talking to people or talking to
6:05
people that are still in it, because there's a lot of good people that
6:09
are still in it and still trying to make it. A lot of bad
6:12
people too, that's also true. But yeah, so it's just a little
6:15
bit more nuanced. I would say. You said, you like initially had
6:19
this thought of like, hey, you know, society really treated people like
6:25
Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears pretty poorly back in the nineties when they were really
6:29
young girls. Really yeah, and that was kind of your impetus of like
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what would that look like for what was that like in the Christian world?
6:36
So that was sort of the initial like maybe the initial thought around it,
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but clearly like you ended up interviewing lots of different kinds of people, not
6:44
just like people who are like young girls in the nineties in the Christian music
6:46
industry. So at some point like it must have expanded to like from that
6:53
very specific premise to oh, like I'm really just curious about what it was
6:57
like being a Christian artist during that time. It had like at some point
7:01
that switched, right, yeah, And I think I wanted to make sure
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we were like representing different genres where there's like the Derek Web and the Jennifer
7:10
Napp experience of being like songwriters getting into it are completely different than like Avalon
7:15
and plus one, who were sort of put together by a label versus like
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a young girl like Nikki Leonti who's out on the road by herself at fourteen.
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So made sure we have that. And then also just in terms of
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one of the interesting things we get into is sort of how a lot of
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it was funded by like super conservative movements and the Republican parties, So making
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sure we had represent representatives of that. So like the George Bush administration was
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giving something like a million dollars a year to true Love waits, who would
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then approach a Nick Leonti or a Jennifer Napp to be like, we'll give
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you some money to be the face of this campaign and write some music for
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it, and so making sure we're sort of covering all of that as well.
7:54
Wow, that is something I'm very interested to see what you've put together,
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because it's hard to understand what the purpose of the Bush administration doing that
8:05
would be, at least just from a third perspective, you know, I
8:09
think it was so Leah Payne, I don't know if you've talked to her
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on your podcast before, you should get around She's well, I know,
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has her book come out yet, By the way, it comes out in
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January. Okay, we definitely need to get her on this awesome and has
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been like such a like just like gift of knowledge for this film. But
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she talks a lot about how when you think of Christian music, you think
8:31
of like the music, but a lot of it is about evangelical control or
8:35
keeping white evangelical youth in the church, and so to get them sort of
8:41
like ramped up. If you put artists for these campaigns like Purity Culture relates
8:48
eventually to the pro life movement, right, So it's like, this is
8:50
how you get the next generation excited about that. And you see the same
8:54
sort of thing with like school shootings, where you would think gun control,
8:58
it's prayer in school. Is how do we do that the see you at
9:01
the Pole campaign? So we'll put some CCM artists on a soundtrack to get
9:05
the youth excited about that. So there's lots of examples like that sort of
9:09
throughout, which I guess isn't a shocking if you've grown up in it to
9:13
know, like the word Republican was coincided with the word Christian growing up.
9:18
Yeah, but when you sort of like zoom out and say, oh my
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god, where's the money coming from? That's where it was a little bit
9:24
like, oh wow, this is intense. Was this in George Bush's first
9:31
campaign or was it during his re election? Do you know I don't have
9:35
I have the in the dock, but I do not have the actual numbers
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in front of me yet. Yeah. No, I'm just I'm just curious
9:41
because I know that like his first election, it was it was based around
9:46
like basically cold calling a bunch of people in Florida stuff like that, trying
9:48
to say if Gore gets elected that abortions are going to become ten times more
9:56
frequent or something like that. They were just like scaring everybody. Yeah,
10:00
so I'm curious if it was during first election or the reelection. Yeah,
10:05
I'll find out. I'll get back to you. Yeah, no worries.
10:07
I was just curious. Yeah, Definitely, like during the Heyday, I
10:11
would say of like CCM music would have probably been more of his like first
10:16
term, just with those early two thousands, and you know, we think
10:22
about, like Colin and I we like reminisce all the time about like the
10:24
music that we grew up with, you know, during those like even like
10:26
the alternative world of Christian music. Definitely, the Heyday was like early two
10:31
thousands, mid two thousands, and so it would have definitely been kind of
10:35
like that the early part of Bush's presidency. Yeah, and we were focusing
10:39
on late nineties, early two thousands, when it was like a billion dollars
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in revenue every year in sort of like the peak of it. Yeah,
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how much do you know the exact figure of like how many billions of dollars
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that in the Christian music industry was at the time. It's funny we have
10:54
a like company doing research because nobody really knows. Some people track it by
11:00
units sold, some people track it by like revenue, but it's hard to
11:03
pin down because it was like you've got the Christian bookstore revenue, but a
11:07
lot of the tours and stuff were paid for by like World Vision and organizations
11:13
like that that are like charitable, so like it's hard to see if that
11:16
counted as profit or not. So it's it's very hard to pinpoint and number,
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you know, how it should be visualized. At least this is how
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I would visualize it if I was making a documentary how many how many jumbo
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jets could kreflow dollar purchase with the amount of money that was made from CCM
11:37
late nineties. That's actually genius. There's a YouTube channel I watch that.
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Whenever there's like a sort of like size comparison of some sort, like whether
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it's monetary or whatever it was, or even like physical size, they always
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compare it to a Honda Corolla or a Toyota Corolla, and so like if
12:00
it's like, you know, a million dollars, it's like it's this many
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Toyota corollas, or if it's like five thousand like tons, like this is
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how many Toyota corollas it was or whatever, like it's always compared to Toyota
12:11
Corolla. That's brilliant. Everyone knows a Toyota Corola. You watched the movie
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and you're like, why is everything compared to a Toyota Corola. Can we
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take a step back for a second. Yeah, so you're growing up.
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I'm curious what was the artists or artist or artists that you pushed the boundary
12:31
on when it comes to secular music? What was the artist or artists that
12:35
you were trying to get one under the table from your parents so they wouldn't
12:41
know or anything like that. Wait, you guys are I'm not. I
12:43
was not an alternative kid at all. So mine was Mandy Moore ye and
12:48
the Walk tream Member soundtrack. Oh because yeah, Rachel Lampa around there.
12:52
I could convince my mom like she's a Christian, Yeah, my mom.
12:58
Actually I was able to buy like her then secular album after that. And
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she's wearing like a super low v uh dress? Is this the one?
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It's like a spaghetti strap dress yep. And so he's wearing a turtleneck on
13:11
my album Sleep because but we got she was like the first crossover. And
13:20
then I think I could dabble in like Jessica Simpson and Kelly Clarkson because they
13:24
were like Christian adjacent. Oh yeah, well yeah, because wasn't Jessica Simpson's
13:28
dada pastor? Is that? How is that how you sold it to her?
13:31
And well? And they all had I think even Destiny's Child have like
13:35
a gospel medley and one of her albums, but Jessica saying his Eyes on
13:37
the Sparrow on her Ears a Staple album, so that Persian song on there.
13:43
Oh man, did you ever feel like there was a couple of moments
13:46
where you just like completely missed out on some sort of like pop culture moment,
13:54
especially now, Yeah, like the Brittany and Justin thing. All my
13:58
friends were into that, and I think my cousin had like they had a
14:01
McDonald's Happy Meal CD that I had like burned from a CD onto a cassette
14:07
tape that I kept under my bed, So that that whole movement is interesting
14:13
and a lot of that like right in that time, because like I went
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for work to like a Backstreet Boys concert and I'm like, I don't know
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any of the songs other than like the singles because I was not allowed to
14:22
listen to this day. I'm sure as a as a gay man, that
14:26
is probably like Cardinal Sin number one, right right, we could weirdly listen.
14:33
We were allowed to listen to Reba for some reason. And I don't
14:35
know that's weird, but like her music is not super like no religious at
14:41
all, but she got she cut through for some reason. Oh wow,
14:45
that is kind of weird why Reba would be the one. Yeah, And
14:50
I have no idea because like Fancy is about a prostitute. Yeah, but
14:54
I could listen to that. I couldn't tell you why light's go down in
14:58
Georgia, right, Yeah. That's like about of shooting, isn't it.
15:01
Yeah it is? Yeah, So who knows what was yours? So my
15:07
parents, my mom was crazy about it. My dad was like, I
15:11
don't care what you listened to, but for me, it was Chingy.
15:16
I don't know if you're familiar with Chingy, yeah right there, right there.
15:20
Yeah, I was. I was in like the heart of that early
15:26
bling rap paying hip hop where I was like, I want to listen to
15:31
that, and my parents. Specifically, my mom said no, and she
15:35
found a bunch of burned CDs and then threw them into the fireplace. So
15:39
it was wow, Yeah, it was great. Isn't that such a weird
15:43
thing that we would literally set them on fire? Like yeah, it was
15:46
just like, uh, it's like everything was physically burns. Yeah. Well
15:50
she did the exact same thing to my Pikachu slippers, so it was the
15:56
worst. The slippers definitely evolved more than anything. It was so funny.
16:06
Well, so with the filming of the documentary, obviously you again you've got
16:11
sixty plus hours of footage, so you have done lots and lots of interviews.
16:17
At this point, you're in that editing phase. What were some of
16:19
the things that you learned about the Christian music industry that you didn't maybe know
16:25
before going into doing some of these interviews. Yeah, was there anything that
16:30
kind of came up? We were like, wow, I'm sure, sure
16:32
there's a few things, but yeah, was there anything that was most notable
16:34
around that? I guess a couple of things, one being I think from
16:41
the outside looking in, I thought like, oh, if you didn't like
16:45
meet these like sinless expectations, you would be like excommunicated, which in like
16:48
some instances like a Michael Passon's or a nichi Anti or Jennifer n App was
16:53
the case for the most part, they'll cover up a lot. It's like
16:57
they don't want to get caught it. And so I talked to Matthew Paul
17:02
Turner, who was an former editor in chief at CCM, but he talked
17:04
a lot about how like even when they were doing interviews with the artists,
17:08
it was sort of like a group understanding of like we're protecting the faith,
17:12
so like we're working together to not have this controversy come out because it's a
17:17
protection of the faith. So there's lots and lots and lots of gay Christian
17:23
songwriters who have written the songs that we all know that aren't even publicly out
17:27
that everybody knows, and they're just kind of okay with it as long as
17:30
it doesn't come out. So that was interesting. And then I think also
17:33
just how it was marketed was wild to me, Like, do you guys
17:37
know about Interlink I'm familiar with. I'm familiar that there was some like shady
17:45
stuff. So it was a honestly genius marketing, but it was essentially where
17:49
they would send those comparison charts to youth stories. Oh yeah, I remember
17:53
those questions and the plus one. Yeah. And so they started. They
17:57
were attached to one of the labels at first, and then they went independent
18:02
and worked for all of the Christian labels. But they would try to if
18:06
you were an artist and you got your song and interlink, they would write
18:08
the devotional that they would send to the youth pastor so then that music video
18:12
gets played in youth groups with a devotional and so then you have an emotional
18:17
attachment to the song, and so you request it, you buy the album.
18:21
And then there's also within Christian radio and the Christian bookstores and the Christian
18:26
labels, this marketing figure named is named Becky that they refer to her as
18:30
and she's like a white evangelical mom of two kids. And so the majority
18:34
of Christian music is marketed toward Becky and still is today. And so like
18:38
some of the radio stations you'll talk to and they're like, Becky just watched
18:41
this movie. She wouldn't watch this movie. She's on her second marriage,
18:45
like they have her down to a tea and so a lot of the Christian
18:48
music that we listened to was marketed to our moms, and then they would
18:53
then translate that to the kids. And so that's sort of like when streaming
18:57
came out. Part of the reason why CCM isn't what it used to be
19:00
is because it was always marketed toward moms. Once you could get secular music
19:04
on your phone, most teens are just going for secular music. They're not,
19:08
for the most part, picking up Christian music. Sure, it's interesting
19:14
that streaming is what did that? Was there any like conversation around like the
19:18
years of like Napster and all the illegal downloading, because it does seem like
19:22
with the rise of the Internet that would have given more access to Yeah,
19:26
so all of that sort of combined is like we talk a lot about how
19:30
Christian music is still thriving and making money, nowhere near what it used to
19:34
be, but it's sort of like threefold. One is like this pivot to
19:38
worship, which is also sort of a reaction to like CDs aren't selling.
19:42
We can make our money if we license it in church. Then the Internet
19:47
comes through with streaming and downloading and all of that. And then when all
19:51
of these artists started crossing over, like switch Foot and its expense and jars
19:53
of Clay and Stacey E. Rico. It's harder to say don't listen to
19:59
this and to that when the people on top of the pop charts are Christian
20:03
artists, and so it makes those lines a little bit more blurred. It
20:08
is fascinating to see, like or to hear how just the finding it,
20:15
Like the business part of the industry dictates so much of this, like you
20:21
just mentioned, like how the pivot to worship was because album sales are down,
20:26
So how do we make money. We just make money from licensing our
20:30
music to churches so they can use it for worship. Like that business side
20:34
of it. I don't think a lot of people are aware of it at
20:37
all, and yet it seems to be a really major factor of what has
20:41
shaped our experience of the Christian music industry. And I think if like when
20:47
you're in it right, you see it as a movement of like Third Day
20:49
releases this worship album that then goes viral while Hillsong is happening and Delirious is
20:55
happening, and so it feels like worship music is taking over the industry,
20:59
which is true, but also CDs aren't telling so we got to make music
21:03
somewhere. That's fascinating. I remember. So we're good friends with Derek Webb,
21:07
and he talked to us about that pivot that happened where Third Day I
21:11
think I think it was a Third Day column that he mentioned like, yeah,
21:14
this huge first kind of worship album. But prior to that CCM world,
21:18
it was very kind of like ninety singer songwriter kind of vibe of music
21:22
that was the most popular, like and it was generally like one offs.
21:26
Yeah right, Yeah, and they apparently the label fought back hard against they
21:30
didn't want them to put that album out because it was sort of that like
21:32
vertical, like worship music is just for church WEC I'm using outward to people,
21:37
and apparently like the label thought it was gonna flop, and then it
21:41
comes out and then it's like everyone and their mom has a worship album.
21:45
Yeah, And that has shaped the trajectory of the music the Christian music industry
21:49
for quite some time. Yeah, And I never really thought about it that
21:53
like, it really wasn't until we talked to Derek about that where it was
21:56
like, oh, yeah, like the music that my parents grew, the
22:00
Christian music that my parents grew up like Newsboys, Cadman's Call, all those
22:03
kind of artists were like, they weren't singing those songs in church for the
22:08
most part, And it wasn't until like the late nineties early two thousands with
22:14
that Third Day album where things started to change. Now, all of a
22:17
sudden, you get like Chris Tomlin and even like Newsboys and a lot of
22:22
those bands started to switch over to worship kind of music. And it's really
22:26
interesting to see like that shift happen, and that all happened like like in
22:30
the time that I would have started to become aware of the CCM world,
22:33
and I never realized like that, how dramatic of a shift that was at
22:37
that. Yeah, and while that was happening was sort of when like switch
22:41
Foot and Suspense Stacey, We're all like, we don't want to claim the
22:45
word Christian artists, we were just artists. Some of the music as Christian,
22:49
so it kind of did split a little bit. Yeah, what a
22:53
fascinating part of that history. Was there More of that that came up when
22:57
filming in viewing a lot of these artists around that whole, like we're not
23:03
a Christian band, We're just Christians. In a band, Like how much
23:06
of that I have? Every single artist that was in a band has said
23:08
that same quote to me that like that they would get asked it by Christian
23:12
press like are you Christians? What have you learned about that? That narrative
23:18
that they tried to drive home. A lot of it came from Christian media.
23:22
The artists didn't care. And I think that has been what's been the
23:27
coolest part about this is all of the artists that I've talked to are really
23:32
cool, well meaning people that like got into it because they were raised in
23:37
the Church and wanted to, you know what I mean, share their love
23:38
of God and then realize like, oh, we're part of this propaganda machine.
23:42
That's not a ministry, it is a business. But all of that,
23:47
sort of like Christians in a band or a Christian band, came from
23:49
sort of like the audience and the media around it. You mentioned about like
23:55
just how much of the artists journey was to realizing oh wait, like I'm
24:02
just like a cog in the earth. I'm just a part of this machine,
24:06
this business machine, and I don't want to be a part of this
24:08
anymore. But again, like and I think I don't know if it was
24:11
like before the interview, but at some point when we were chatting here,
24:15
you mentioned how a lot of these people start out when they're eighteen, nineteen
24:18
years old and they don't realize that they just want to make music. And
24:22
I mean some of them were team like Nikki Leant Is like thirty, yeah,
24:25
like super super young. When they like start out and they just want
24:26
to make music. I'm really interested in knowing what that artist journey has been
24:34
like for a lot of people where they realize, like, you know,
24:37
I just want to make music, like I'm a kid, I'm like nineteen
24:41
years old, eighteen years old, maybe even younger. I just want to
24:44
make good music. This happens to be the opportunity I'm given. And then
24:48
maybe ten years later they realize that they're just a part of this machine.
24:52
What is that journey? What is that experience like for a lot of these
24:56
artists. I think it's a little different freach artists, which isn't that shocking,
25:02
But the pop artist, I feel like we're put under the most pressure
25:07
because they were put together by the label, so always a product right where
25:11
it's like we're going to put you, You're going to be the Christian version
25:14
of this, and so they felt the most pressure. And then a lot
25:18
of like Nikki Leonti or Michael Passons from Avalon were kicked out, like forced
25:23
out, and so they kind of came to that like at a glaring halt.
25:27
If you look at like a Jennifer Napp who was not raised in the
25:32
church at all, started writing Christian music in college, always went to it
25:36
from an authentic place. I think hers was sort of like looking around and
25:40
being like, wait a minute, I don't subscribe to purity culture. I
25:42
don't like what they're saying about queer people. I'm gonna like leave on my
25:47
own accord, and sort of as similar with like a Derek Web who's just
25:49
like, don't tell me that I need to write a worship song, Like
25:53
let me do this. So it's it's a little bit of like that.
25:57
And then I think like Nate Cole from Plus one talk to You in this
26:00
where he was kind of like, oh, this is a business, what
26:03
am I doing? So it's it's different for each person. But and now
26:07
looking back, I would say it's like fifty to fifty, like half are
26:12
deconstructed or still claim the word Christian a lot of them want nothing to do
26:15
with it, and which makes a lot of sense if this thing that you're
26:21
almost it sold to you as like a ministry and then you get into it
26:23
and it's like, oh no, lots of people are making lots of money
26:26
off of me. Most of the artists didn't make that much money, which
26:30
is also interesting, like the labels did or the management did. Would you
26:37
say, of the people you talked to, how many would you say felt
26:41
like they had a good experience? Did anyone say that? Yeah? I
26:45
think a lot of them. Like we talked to Matt Teaston from Reliant,
26:48
kay Lee Nash from Suspense, Crystal Lewis, I think I wouldn't say like
26:55
any of them would all say it was all bad, or any of the
26:57
artists. I think if you get kicked out, obviously it's different than like
27:02
choosing to leave on your own accord. But all of them have said like
27:07
it wasn't all bad, it wasn't all good, which I think is the
27:08
truth for anything, and sort of the line we're trying to make sure we
27:11
stick to, where like I'm really not trying to make like the Dark Side
27:17
of CCM, Yeah for sure, And so we want to just sort of
27:21
tell the truth, which I think for everybody is there was some good,
27:22
There still is some good. There was some bad, there still is some
27:26
bad. What is the good? What was the good that was that came
27:30
up consistently? I think it was like Matt from Meliant Kate was saying,
27:37
He's like, I think that it kept me humble, it kept me nice,
27:38
It kept me like a lot of camaraderie. I think you you know,
27:44
if you're believe in Christianity and you're writing about your faith, like that's
27:48
a good thing. It's just hard. Derek Web said a quote that it's
27:52
kind of like the thesis of the dock, where like the marriage of art
27:56
and comments is already a tricky one, when you throw religion into the mix,
28:00
it can become dangerous. And so I think it's that these are like
28:03
artists trying to make art. It's just like we've got the pressure of the
28:07
faith, the political pressure, and we want to make money off of this.
28:11
Yeah. Yeah, that quote that's in the trailer as well as one
28:15
that I've heard him say as well, Derek Web is anytime you attach the
28:19
word Christian to a person or to anything, or sorry, sorry to anything
28:26
other than a person. It's a marketing place. Yeah. I think that's
28:27
such a such a powerful statement because I think when you're like growing up as
28:33
a fan of it, you think of you think of it as a ministry.
28:36
Right Yeah. Dream Alter calls at these concerts and they're like, you
28:40
don't know, there's like million dollar deals being made behind the scenes. So
28:45
again, like you grew up in the CCM world, you listen to lots
28:48
of these artists. Some of these artists where some of your favorite artists growing
28:52
up, and you were jaiming out to them for quite some time. How
28:56
has your relationship changed to that music now that you done this documentary. It's
29:02
funny because my Spotify rapped playlist is going to be so like, but it's
29:08
been kind of like healing, going back and listening to it and reclaiming it
29:12
and also knowing like where these artists stand today on things like that's been kind
29:18
of fun And some of it doesn't hold up at all, but some of
29:21
it holds up really well, Like old Jennifer Napp albums really really good,
29:26
Caveman stuff really good, even like the first Plus one album was produced by
29:30
Dark Child, who did like say my name with Destiny's Child, Like there's
29:36
some good like pop hits there, So that's been interesting. And then it's
29:38
funny because I've gotten really close to Crystal Lewis doing this, and she's in
29:44
like a interesting phase of like do I want to what of these old songs
29:48
do I still agree with with my like space now? And she'll sing some
29:52
and won't sing some. But it's interesting to see the artists sort of reevaluate
29:56
what were these like scary end time lyrics singing about or what were these you
30:00
know, well, I know like reliant ky like won't play mood rings anymore.
30:04
I mean I know that that's a thing that artists have to navigate all
30:07
the time. Yeah, yeah, And I don't know if that's necessarily even
30:11
Like one of the things that we're being careful about is like I don't want
30:15
to call something out that's just a music industry thing and not specific to CCM,
30:19
but like I think as culture changes and evolves, like nobody thought that
30:25
song was problematic back in the day, and now reevaluating and like, oh
30:27
it's pretty cross, but like, yeah, yeah, you mentioned about how
30:33
like the CCM world in particular really has had to navigate and shift with the
30:37
changing of times. And obviously, like the age of streaming has like really
30:41
shifted things, and that not just like the CCM world, but just music
30:45
industry in general has had to change with streaming. One of the things that
30:49
I keep thinking about all the time is the fact that the Christian music industry
30:56
has changed so much. Where let's say, twenty twenty five years ago,
31:00
like the average Christian kid that was growing up in youth group, like they
31:04
had that poster of like this is these are the Christian bands or Christian artists
31:08
you should listen to if you really like these secular artists. There was a
31:12
time where that was an industry that was big enough where that was the common
31:21
youth group kid experience. And now I think to like even like the big
31:26
megachurches, like you know, Elevation and all, like the all the average
31:30
big church, the big Evangelical church. Now, what is that youth group
31:34
kid experiencing when it comes to like Christian culture, specifically Christian music, And
31:40
for the most part, it's really just like just the music you sing at
31:42
church, and there really isn't anything outside of that. And I find that
31:47
to be a really fascinating shift that has happened, and I'm guessing a lot
31:51
of it is because of the way that the Christian music industry and just music
31:55
industry has changed over the last twenty years. But I'm really curious, like,
31:59
was there anything that came up that when you think about like the average
32:02
youth group kid experience now, like, was there anything that came up we
32:06
were like, Wow, that is dramatically different for a variety of reasons than
32:09
what my experience was. Like, if you talk to people that are still
32:14
in the industry today, they will tell you that that's not the case,
32:16
which is interesting. They'll point to Lauren Daegel, who's had like huge success,
32:21
and I do think there are some outliers like her, but it doesn't
32:23
feel like that is as like common of a thing as it was. And
32:29
I think it's because it was siloed, right, Like we got our music
32:32
from Christian bookstores. We weren't allowed to listen to secular music. You can't
32:36
really control that unless you're taking your phone away from your kids today, And
32:39
so I think they're listening to Adele and then switching it over to the Christian
32:45
radio, even like moms in their cars today. So yeah, we haven't
32:50
really dug into, like as much what's happening with CCM today. We're sort
32:53
of focusing on that time we talked to similar a little bit as just like
32:59
sort of an outlier to break through today. But there still is a big
33:05
Christian music industry radio today, and CCM is bigger than it was back in
33:08
the nineties early two thousands. A lot of the music on radios worship,
33:13
so it's it is just like, you're right about that, just like the
33:16
music in church. One of the other things that I find really interesting is
33:22
the genre of music in its relationship to the business of music. For example,
33:29
one of the things that I think about all the time is a lot
33:32
of the more like alternative bands in that world. And I want to kind
33:37
of get into that later on here in a bit. But one of the
33:39
things that I think about all those alternative bands that were really committed to that
33:43
alternative sound. They were like punk bands or hardcore bands, or metal bands
33:46
or rock bands or whatever. They were really committed to that genre of music.
33:52
A lot of those bands ended up leaving Christianity. Those were some of
33:55
the first bands I heard like, no, we're not a Christian band.
33:58
We're Christians in the band. There was already a disconnect there that even I
34:01
noticed in the two thousands and a lot of those bands ended up either leaving
34:07
Christianity or certainly leaving evangelicalism. And but it was but it was really interesting
34:13
because a lot of those bands were like a particular kind of genre of music,
34:15
whereas the bands that like maintained that Christian like that very strong relationship with
34:23
the Christian music industry. Their sound changed. So for example, if you
34:28
ever listen to like early Skillet, it was like really alternative, it was
34:32
basically like new metal. It was really like alternative music. I mean it
34:37
was it was cutting edge. I mean it sounded like corn and whatnot.
34:40
And then here they are now and they almost sound like the stereotypical worship band.
34:46
They made a genre change over these years that I think has become has
34:52
been because of their strong relationship with the Christian music industry. And there's a
34:57
reason why we like think of Skillet the way that we do around like like
35:00
you know, especially those of us who left Evangelicalism, as like they're like
35:02
the Christian nationalist band, and they're like the band that like they're super super
35:07
evangelical, and I think a lot of it you can see just by the
35:09
way that their music sounds. I'm really curious if like you noticed anything around
35:14
that around like a artist genre and the way that their music sounds and their
35:20
relationship with the Christian music industry. I mean, I think it's really just
35:23
following the money. So that's where the money is, and that worship adult
35:28
contemporary sounding stuff. It's interesting. The genre stuff that which we haven't talked
35:31
about yet is sort of the gospel versus CCM of it all, where it's
35:37
like, if you look at CCM as a category on Billboard, right,
35:42
it's the only genre to find from lyrics unless you're black, than your gospel,
35:46
than your gospeling. Yeah, And so if you look at and they'll
35:50
all be like, it's a different genre. But if you like follow and
35:53
go way back, Christian music started from rock music, which was taken from
35:57
the black church. Yeah, so then we've claim it as a genre and
36:00
still don't let black people in. And if you look at like the nineties
36:04
and early two thousands, you can point to like Mary Mary out of Eden,
36:07
like the wine Ins. There's a couple people, but for the most
36:09
part, I think the CCM charts were ninety five ninety six percent white in
36:15
the nineties early two thousands. The pop charts are pretty integrated at that point
36:19
in terms of race and in terms of like Trinity five to seven, who's
36:22
in the movie. They're working with a lot of the same producers and songwriters,
36:27
and so it really is just like used as a way to segregate.
36:31
So that's interesting in terms of genre. But going back to the skillet stuff,
36:35
I do think it's all that's following the money. Yeah, that's something
36:38
that that's also kind of interesting though the point you bring up with the gospel
36:42
versus CCM, man, you know what my perspective, and maybe this is
36:45
off, and maybe you have a good perspective on this, but my perspective
36:51
growing up and now is that the gospel section of Christian music had so much
37:00
much less let's say bullshit for a better you know, no better term to
37:05
say there. It seemed like it was just much more real, like it
37:07
was more authentic. And I'm curious you think I weren't aware of it.
37:13
If you talk to any of the art it's the same problems, is it
37:15
really yeah? Wow, and just kind of but it is weird because they're
37:20
happening simultaneously, and like there is a different version of the Double Awards for
37:24
Black artists. There's different really a week which was like the gospel music like
37:29
south By Southwest, there was a different one for gospel artists, so it
37:32
was fully segregated, which is wow. It did seem like at a moment
37:37
in time, like someone like Kirk Franklin was able to cross over between gospel
37:40
and CCM. But I still remember him like mentioning and I think it was
37:45
maybe in the last like ten years, but he mentioned it might have been
37:49
at like a double Wards where he was like very clear around like some of
37:52
the race stuff. And and I could be wrong again, like I'm so
37:58
far outside of the he brought up. He feels like now he's like very
38:00
strictly gospel again, is not able to cross over to CECIM because of like
38:05
some of the stances he's made. Yeah, And it's funny because they'll the
38:09
industry will blame the audience where they'll say, because Toby Mack with his label
38:15
Goates still has a pretty diverse roster, they're not really like there's a couple
38:20
they're not really getting played on Christian radio, and so the industry will blame
38:24
the artists or the audience and say, well, they won't listen to it,
38:29
and it's like yeah, but look at what's happened on the pop charts
38:32
and CCM is like always like three years behind what's happening there, so like
38:36
it should have caught up by this point. Did you explore at all or
38:42
like hear a little bit about the just like the evolution of sound in terms
38:49
of like the broad range of like CCM. I've always thought some somewhere along
38:54
the lines that like CCM always feels like five years behind of what it's popular.
39:00
So you know, if like radio, if like Coldplay is like super
39:06
popular, it's gonna take like five years before CCM realizes that. And now
39:10
all these artists are going to sound like Coldplay or you know, whatever it
39:13
might be. Did you get like a sense in making this documentary that that
39:16
like also is like true, and like why does it take that industry so
39:22
long? If that is true? So it's about three years is what we've
39:25
come to realize. But it's literally like Wilson Phillips three years later was point
39:31
of grace, and like even now Adele three years later was Lauren Daigel.
39:37
So it's it's still happening. I think it's because there they hear a sound
39:40
and they're like, oh, let's recreate that. By the time you find
39:43
an artist, sign an artist, make an album, promote the album,
39:46
it's about a three year delay, which is interesting because if you if you
39:52
take like the grand example of YouTube, all the worship artists still try to
39:58
sound like YouTube. Though. Yeah, so the time was cold Play on
40:04
like an opposite side of this was big delirious bands. Oh wow, And
40:07
so cold Place sound is inspired by Delirious and Coldplay has inspired how many Christian
40:14
artists with their sound too, so that one you can track back to,
40:17
I mean, where did Delirious get their sound? Wow? That I've actually
40:25
I've made like like the opposite claim for alternative Christian bands, Like I've made
40:30
the claim that, uh, you know, this is always up for debate,
40:34
but like Colin and I have talked about this, like I think new
40:37
metal was created by Christians because like pod was, like they released like new
40:44
metal music before like corn metal bands. Yeah, even like Family Force five,
40:50
I would argue was the first crunk core band. They came around before
40:54
like three oh three and some of those other bands that came out during that
40:58
time. They were the first six and I think those Tooth and Nail I
41:04
eventually well, yeah, yeah, a pod was Toothnail for at least like
41:08
an EP, and then I believe Family Force five had like one or two
41:13
Tooth and Nail releases because I guess, and this is just my opinion,
41:16
but I think a lot of those artists, and even the Derek Webs and
41:19
the Jennifer and Apps were just like musicians writing music in a community, right.
41:23
The pop musicians and the pop rock were like industry plants put together by
41:30
labels that were like, yeah, oh, look at this thing happening in
41:32
pop culture. Let's infiltrate this and make the Christian version. So that's probably
41:37
accurate what you're saying, because I think those sounds just came from musicians writing
41:40
music. Well, that kind of like leads me into like one of the
41:45
things I'm most interested in is that divide that you see between like the Tooth
41:49
and Nail type of Christian artists versus kind of what I would describe as the
41:53
mainstream, if you will, Christian artists, Like, you know, the
41:57
more of the worshippy stuff, pop stuff, all of that. Yeah,
42:00
Like, did you get a sense of any of that divide while making this
42:05
film? Yeah? I think. I mean not to say they didn't have
42:08
a hard time, because I think anybody that grew up in a super evangelical
42:12
environment had a hard time. Oh yeah, they got a lot more unscathed,
42:16
I think, and there was less pressure on them than these artists that
42:20
were signed to the major labels because a lot of the Word Records was i
42:23
think owned by Sony or Epic Virgin owned go Tee or not go te what's
42:29
the one forefront and so a lot of those I think when you were signed
42:32
to the major label, there's more pressure on you versus the ndie label artists,
42:37
which is still kind of true in any genre today. Like you get
42:42
a little more freedom to create and less pressure to like say this, don't
42:45
say that. Yeah, that makes sense. That is interesting because there was
42:51
one particular big CCM artist that was on a Tooth and Nail label, which
42:55
was BC the Brandon Ebol company that was like an imprint of Tooth Andnail,
43:00
and that was Jeremy Camp. So Jeremy Camp was like probably the person that
43:06
was like making the most money for Tooth and Nail for some time. And
43:09
it's interesting that he was on that label with very like a lot less probably
43:15
pressure from any major label because Tooth and Nail, probably at least in those
43:21
early days, was still indie. And so it's interesting that like Jeremy Camp
43:24
was able to explode and get as big in that world as some of the
43:29
major label artists, even though he probably had way less pressure to sound a
43:32
certain way and whatnot. Yeah, and I would imagine he's probably an outlier.
43:37
Certainly he's got to do it. Also, I think that he might
43:40
have been and I don't know on timeline yet. I'd have to go back
43:45
and look. But I almost feel like he was chasing that really unique Chris
43:49
Daughtry sound at the time, which was very mainstream, right, I mean,
43:53
Holy Buckets that song, those there's like two or three songs that he
43:58
had were everywhere and they sound identical. Yeah, that's that's funny. And
44:04
Chris Doctry sort of didn't he toy the line of like, yes, yeah,
44:07
he almost felt like Christianity. He was definitely safe for the whole family.
44:13
Yes, I feel like the Fray was kind of like that too there
44:16
there were, yeah, or even like Lifehouse, Oh yeah, I don't
44:22
know. The Fray was never signed to a Christian label. I don't know
44:23
if Life House was. I don't believe. So that first album was their
44:28
biggest album, and I doubt that was released on a Christian label. Okay.
44:31
The Fray grew up with Stacey Rico actually okay, and so they were
44:36
they used to Yeah, so they were very very in the CC like around
44:42
the c CM world. Wow. I never would have guess said, yeah,
44:45
that's pretty wild. Okay, So when you are talking to these artists,
44:53
is there a game plan that you have going in, Like are you
44:55
just trying to get their story or are you trying to is there like a
45:00
strategy to try to pick out their experience more holy No. I think we've
45:05
done a couple like second interviews with a lot of artists and then it's like
45:08
we're sort of like, Okay, let's go back and get this. But
45:10
I think going into it was just sort of like let's get all the stories
45:15
and then when we're piecing it together, like what feels like it has the
45:19
most through line, what feels like it represents something bigger? I tell people
45:23
I like I didn't have to do really any research for this because I like
45:27
grew up in it so much that it was just kind of like go in
45:30
and talk to them. It's funny our editor the first weekend of interviews we
45:35
did Michael Passons, Jennifer nappan Lee Ash and she like wrote me an email,
45:37
She's like, you have to stop talking, because it was just like
45:42
I hadn't talked about this in so long, and so they're talking and I'm
45:44
like talking over them and cutting back. But yeah, I did just sort
45:47
of go in wanting to like hear their stories from their perspective, and then
45:52
when we go back for round two, it's sort of digging into like,
45:53
Okay, what happened in that situation or that sure? Sure? Also along
45:59
with them, you said you have sixty hours or so of footage. First
46:04
of all, I can't imagine trying to edit that down. And I feel
46:07
for you, why a documentary and why not like a docuseries. I'm self
46:14
funding it. Yeah, that's a that's a big reason. But I did
46:19
sort of want to like tell a holistic story. And one of the reasons
46:22
I did this independently versus like going to a network for funding? First is
46:27
I think my fear was having to make the dark side of CCM and like
46:32
really get into and like there is that in here, like it's not like
46:36
we're like cleansing it. We're telling the truth, but like I wanted to
46:39
tell the truth from all sides. And so that was that, mixed with
46:45
the fact that it's self funded, made it like, let's make a movie,
46:47
not a series like it. It's good, it makes sense along those
46:52
lines. What is the playing around like the release of this, Like,
46:55
are you gonna do some like festivals? Is it eventually going to be able
47:00
to be like streamable? What's the kind of idea around all that? Yeah,
47:02
the plan is the film festival route. So we should be finished,
47:06
hopefully by end of your early next year, and then submit it to film
47:09
festivals and then hopefully that's when you get a distribution deal and put up on
47:15
a platform and all the fun business stuff. Awesome. Is there a hope
47:19
that like a Netflix or something like that would want to pick this up,
47:22
like I know, I think it was Hulu that picked up the whole thing
47:27
about Hillsong and stuff like that. Is that is that a possibility even?
47:30
Yeah, definitely and we'll try to go to a studio and then the studio
47:34
will take it to the networks. Network could just pick it up right away,
47:37
but yeah, we're open to anywhere. Nice. Well, I'm rooting
47:43
for it watching the trailer. I've never been more excited for a documentary and
47:46
I'm not gonna lie about it. Like I watch a lot of documentaries.
47:50
Mason knows this, but I'm really excited for this one. Thank you appreciate
47:53
that. Yeah, Yeah, it's a I when I first saw it,
47:59
and I've seen like some other like CCM stuff, but I'm like, this
48:00
is getting to like where I want to see a CCM documentary, Like this
48:06
is really getting into the heart of some of the things that I've like,
48:08
really questioned and wondered about that world. Yeah. I think we talked a
48:13
little bit before we hit record about the Jesus Music doc and I felt like
48:20
it just left out a lot of the story, and so we wanted to
48:23
cover what they didn't cover. Makes sense. I love it. Well,
48:29
let's kind of transition from the documentary and let's get into your own personal favorite
48:37
albums. I'm guessing there's gonna be quite a few CCM albums on this.
48:40
But yeah, let's let's hear from Jason. What your top five most influential
48:45
albums are. Yeah, okay, the most influential. The first is the
48:47
Sta sri Rico self titled album. That was like totally my shit, what
48:53
what? What year was that? That was two thousand one, two thousand
49:00
and two her first album, right, or the second one is good,
49:07
but the second one was like, oh, two thousand and three, two
49:09
thousand and three. Also, that album cover is the most two thousand and
49:13
three, like, look I've ever seen from It's like the gray shirt looking
49:16
to the side, but then like the makeup and oh my goodness, that
49:21
is so two thousand and three. I remember watching it. She was on
49:23
TRL and it was like a big scandal in the East group that she was
49:27
on such a worldly channel. Oh my gosh, she's going to hell.
49:30
I know. Okay, so that one, and then I'll say we talked
49:34
about it. The Walk trem Member soundtrack, Oh yeah, still holds up.
49:37
I stand by that. I listened to that all the time. And
49:40
then the Joni Mitchell Blue album, Oh yeah, there we go. That
49:45
was like in college sort of first time, like I think when you grow
49:50
up in CCM. I didn't and I didn't listen. I only listened to
49:52
pop c CM. I didn't know about anything that wasn't mainstream. And then
49:55
even when I started to listen to secular music, I didn't know about anything
50:00
that wasn't pop. And so that was the first thing where I was like,
50:01
oh, what is this? Like this is crazy? How did Joni
50:06
Mitchell of all things? Cut your ears? Over? In college? One
50:09
day and a friend was like, I listened to this when I'm hungover and
50:13
put it on and it just like hit me, like this is so that
50:16
is I mean, I get why you listen to that hungover, but also
50:21
what a strange record to choose. At the same time, I like it.
50:24
It's great, great record. And then the Brandy Carlisle Give Up the
50:29
Ghost album. Oh yeah, I love Brandy Carlyle so good. I actually
50:32
saw her do the Joni Mitchell Blue Album at Carnegie Hall last year, where
50:37
she like just sang it fronts back. It was wow, amazing. Every
50:40
lesbian in Hollywood was there, so fun. And can I just say one
50:49
thing about Brandy Carlyle. She's like pretty outspokenly Christian, right, like yeah
50:54
and like claims it and it's really interesting that, Like that's the other thing
51:00
that's interesting about this whole world is like you have obviously, like these people
51:02
who get into that world, they don't necessarily know what they're getting into,
51:07
and then all of a sudden it's like, well, I'm a Christian,
51:09
but I'm not like doing like Christian music. And then there's like people like
51:14
her that have like always remained outside of that industry, but we're like,
51:17
oh, I'm for sure Christian. Yeah. Really interesting that dynamic that has
51:22
been the case, and we see artists like that all the time, where
51:24
you know, like Thrice is another artist that like somehow remained outside of the
51:29
Christian music industry, but like most of the band members, if not all,
51:30
were always like very Christian. Yeah, And there's other artists like that,
51:35
and I find that really really interesting. It's cool to see even today,
51:38
like Flamey Grant and similar that are like, no, I'm going to
51:42
claim the term Christian artists and you're not going to stop me. Where it's
51:45
like if you talk to Jennifer n Apple, Derek Weber, any of these
51:47
other artists, they don't want that title, right, And so it's kind
51:51
of cool to see this new wave come in and be like, nope,
51:53
we're taking this. You can't stop us. So fascinating. All right,
51:58
I interrupted you very rare, very very rudely. What was the other one,
52:02
Oh, it's Kelly Clarkson my December Oh yeah, there we go.
52:07
That was the first time I was like, oh, I'm going to root
52:09
for an album that nobody else's I loved it and latched onto it. What
52:15
did you when you interviewed Matt Tison, did you talk anything about the song
52:21
that he recorded with Katie that ended up getting re recorded with Kelly. It's
52:24
funny because I literally that was the first thing I brought up, and he's
52:28
like, I don't think anyone's ever brought that up in an interview before.
52:30
Never long. It is a great song. It's actually super catchy. Oh
52:36
it's so good. Yeah we did. We did talk about that. I'm
52:38
trying to find a way to get it into the movie. It's probably not
52:42
gonna make the cut, but yes, we did. I made a YouTube
52:45
video a few months ago about the relationship between Katie and Matt, and I
52:51
find it so interesting. I think it's one of the funniest stories from that
52:54
Christian music world. Oh I'll tell you a story when we're gone recording.
52:58
Ohoh oh, all right, I think you got one more, right,
53:01
Jason. I think that was five. That five fine? But I do
53:06
have a question here of the artists that you could have interviewed, what what
53:13
were three white whales that he came close but you just couldn't quite snag.
53:19
I'm not going to say them yet because I'm still working on them. Ah
53:22
okay, okay, Well maybe maybe this would be a little shout out to
53:29
them. I would love to have Jackieveloskaz Yeah, okay, her, I
53:34
would love to have her. That'd be great for sure. Rebecca Saint James,
53:38
I would actually I'd love to talk to her. She's married to the
53:40
guy from Foster the People, right. I thought they were like, no,
53:45
I think you're right. Uh. And then also her cousin is like
53:47
the for King and Country guy. Right yeah, oh see, I didn't
53:52
you know what, because there's a movie coming out next year about her and
53:57
for King and Country. I think it's the same people that the like.
54:00
I can only imagine all of those ones. Either her cousin or her brother
54:05
is like the for King and Country people. I think I think that is
54:10
yes, and then I think we like Colin, I feel like we heard
54:14
in the last year or so that yeah, she's either married or had some
54:17
sort of relationship with Foster the people. Yeah, I think she's married to
54:22
one of the guys from there. I think so, yeah, Wow,
54:25
Google exists, but we're not going to use it all right, What would
54:30
you like to plug? Obviously you have the uh, you have the documentary
54:34
coming out at some point. Yes, we've got to go fund me out
54:38
right now. We're raising money to finish the movie for graphics and movie and
54:44
or for graphics and music and licensing and all of that save for the whole
54:47
familyfilm dot com you can find more perfect. Is there any idea of like
54:52
when it possibly could come out? We're aiming for twenty twenty four, so
54:58
we're trying to get it finished by the end of the year so we could
55:00
submit it at the top of the year, which we're knock on wood on
55:04
track for. Oh, also that perfect, wonderful, excited for that,
55:08
Jason, anything else you'd like to plug? Back In nineteen ninety two,
55:15
I co wrote and Amy Grant hit what How old were You? Way?
55:19
I was five? What How did How does a five year old end up
55:23
getting hooked up with Amy Grant to do a song. I wrote a like
55:30
a poem in the local newspaper that apparently her tour manager or somebody had read
55:36
what and they sent it to her and she turned it into an album track.
55:39
Oh it was never a single. It should have been what are you
55:44
like? In the co writing on the like the album credits. I am
55:50
really all right, so we can go back. Is it a pen name
55:52
or is it your actual name? It's my real name, Jasonnike. Wow,
55:54
all right, five years old that record? What could you possibly say
55:59
at five years old that Amy Grant's going to want to put in her album?
56:01
God was working through me, That's all I can say. Wow.
56:06
Yeah, that's pretty powerful. Clearly. Wow. Well, I mean if
56:09
God can speak through an ass, he can speak through a five year old
56:14
Jason Ette. Amen. Wow, impressive. Shout out to Amy Grant.
56:21
You know, I feel like she gets a lot of hate from a lot
56:22
of different people. But you know what if she's willing to see a five
56:27
year old poem and be like, oh yeah, that's uh that that needs
56:30
to be in an album, Like, my goodness, what what kind of
56:34
let's say that's incredible intergenerational ministry of her here a these years later. I
56:42
feel like you should at least be able to get her in the documentary for
56:45
that alone, like hey, Amy, you remember me? Like, hey,
56:49
I was. I literally co wrote one of your songs and I'm still
56:52
getting those royalty checks all two dollars. Nice. Yeah, exactly, love
57:00
it well, Jason, So exciting to chat with you about the documentary.
57:05
I'm really looking forward to when it eventually does come out. It's just really
57:08
really incredible work that you're doing. So thank you so much for chatting more
57:13
about it, and hopefully it goes really really well. Thank you, Thank
57:15
you for having me. Thanks