Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Si Hart about his choice of The Ark in Space (1/4)

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Talks to Si Hart about his choice of The Ark in Space (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:01
I think Bob had got one draft script of the first episode when
0:05
I started as producer and I wasn't very impressed with it.
0:09
Bob explained his overall story concept to me, which I thought
0:13
was very good, which I thought was a very good concept.
0:16
Anyway, we were waiting some time for the rest of the
0:18
scripts. By the time the scripts arrived
0:21
with us, it was by now very near to the deadline for shooting.
0:25
So I think my first major strategic decision as producer
0:29
was to say this is not good enough.
0:32
Barry let's certainly flagged up the problem, but it was down to
0:35
me to go and get permission from my head of department, Bill
0:37
Slater, for me to Commission Bob to write the replacement
0:41
scripts. I persuaded Bob not to rewrite
0:44
the story, but to completely write a new set of four scripts
0:48
from scratch, but based on Bob's own original concept of the Arc
0:52
in space, which he outlined to me.
0:55
And luckily Bob agreed and got down to the job, but he had to
0:59
do it very quickly. Welcome back to our Hamster with
1:04
a blood pen knife, the Doctor Who commentary podcast.
1:09
Hello Sai. Hello, Joe.
1:12
And so, with that slight small reading there from Robert
1:15
Holmes, a life in his words, Good.
1:18
Book. What story do you imagine we're
1:21
going to be talking about today? Well, I know what story we're
1:24
going to be talking about today. I.
1:25
Know you do. And I'm here with my bubble
1:28
wrap. Oh my God, did you not have any
1:32
green paint? I didn't have time to get the
1:34
green paint and I only remembered just before we
1:37
started recording that I needed to grab the bubble wrap.
1:40
May I say your hand looks extremely like alien flesh right
1:43
now. It's hot.
1:49
I'm taking that off now. Yes, it's an extremely hot
1:51
summer or Indian summer day. It is I'm.
1:55
Here to talk about the arc in space Yes story, which by all
1:59
accounts many people have an opinion on.
2:01
Well. Yes, well, you know, we're in
2:05
season 12 and as many people have commentated, this is a bit
2:10
of a sea change in Doctor Who. Like overnight it's changed
2:14
completely from where it was last week.
2:17
We've just had a nice cosy UNIT story to get Tom Baker in and
2:23
now he's into outer space and it's scary and dark and gothic,
2:30
even though it's not actually very dark and it's not actually
2:33
very gothic. But the ideas are big and scary
2:36
and horrible. Can I ask you a question
2:41
immediately? Well, of course, you've never
2:43
stopped before. Never will again.
2:47
Because the last story you and I did a commentary on was from a
2:51
dark season of Doctor Who. And I think this is a story as a
2:58
story from a dark season of Doctor Who.
3:00
I think there's a lot of brutality in season 12,
3:04
especially in Arc in Space and Suntar Experiment and Genesis of
3:08
the Daleks, which you and I have also covered.
3:12
And there are lighter moments and the regulars are nicer.
3:16
And I'm wondering if that's going to be the difference for
3:18
you. But I know you love this season.
3:23
Yeah, well, I'm, you know, me. I'm contrary.
3:26
I'm as contrary as you and Fraser.
3:28
So I, I say these things and then, well, actually, I really
3:32
quite like this. I, I think even though I, I, I
3:38
was watching the story last night and even though Tom
3:42
Baker's Doctor is dark and brooding a lot of this story,
3:47
he's also incredibly fun and funny as well.
3:52
And I think there are a hell of a lot of comparisons between his
3:57
performance in this and Capaldi's performance in Doctor
4:02
Who. And I think this is where he's
4:03
really taking his, his cues from.
4:06
But I don't know, there's just something about the warmth
4:08
between the Doctor, Sarah and Harry that isn't there with the
4:13
Doctor and Clara so much that make this much more of a fun
4:18
watch. And I think the interplay
4:20
between Sarah and Harry is is quite fun and levels the story.
4:26
It's instant as well, isn't it? Because yeah.
4:29
Yeah. Basically, the first scene of
4:31
this story is the first proper sequence between the three of
4:35
them. Yeah, yeah, other than the end
4:37
of Robot, really. And so it feels like like you're
4:40
in Season 2 when you've got the 1st Dr. Ian Barber and Vicky,
4:46
and after sort of two or three stories, they're well in their
4:48
stride. Yeah, this feels like to me.
4:52
Yeah, absolutely. And it's the same feeling that
4:54
you get suddenly. I, I remember having it with
4:58
Remembrance of the Daleks where the Doctor, it feels like the
5:01
Doctor and Ace have been the TARDIS team forever and you've
5:05
seen them together for a handful of scenes in Dragon Fire before
5:09
this. And it's just like instant
5:11
chemistry between the actors and it just works.
5:14
And if you go? Like in story, you can make an
5:17
excuse for it as well, can't you?
5:18
Because Harry was supposedly sort of behind the scenes in
5:21
UNIT during those stories of season 11.
5:24
I think Sarah and Harry have had some time together behind the
5:26
scenes. Obviously she knows the doctor,
5:28
although she's still getting to know this doctor.
5:30
So there is maybe like a creative shorthand.
5:35
Yeah, so, yeah. And so I don't know, maybe the
5:41
darkness is just sort of mitigated by that.
5:47
And we've got a set of very well defined characters in this story
5:52
as well, but we don't meet them for a little while, which is
5:56
gives us time to get to know the regulars and this team working
6:00
together, even though Sarah is sidelined fairly quickly.
6:04
But we see the Doctor and Harry together a lot, which is a
6:07
really interesting and fun Doctor companion team.
6:14
That feels very hard, no, doesn't it?
6:15
The three Yeah, Exploring the setting.
6:18
Absolutely someone. Feels like it's been written by
6:21
somebody who hasn't been writing for the show for some time.
6:24
Yeah. Well, and and yeah, this is
6:27
someone who has written for the show quite a lot over the last
6:30
five or six years, But what what?
6:32
Someone once made a Really interesting and fantastic
6:36
remark, and I wish I remembered who it was.
6:40
They said it was you. Were going to say I wish I
6:42
remember what it was. I know, I know what it is.
6:46
They said every doctor's second story.
6:50
You could put Hartnell in with any one of his teams and it
6:55
would fit. And it's almost like, yeah, I
7:00
think it just about works. Definitely the Silurians, yeah.
7:04
Yeah, arc in space. That would work.
7:08
Yeah, wandering around the space station.
7:09
Come along, Dodo, my child. For to doomsday.
7:14
Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, that is basically a
7:16
first top story, isn't it? Exactly, I think Attack of the
7:19
Cybermen is the is a bit of an outlier, but.
7:24
We'll discuss that when we get round one.
7:27
Imagine Hartner with that gun at the end.
7:29
Die. But Paradise Towers.
7:34
Yeah, for sure. Maybe you'd tone it down and wee
7:36
bit the comedy. Yeah, definitely.
7:39
Yeah, yeah, I never. Thought of that end of the
7:41
world. Yeah, fuck me.
7:45
Sorry. That's basically the arc.
7:48
Yep, 2 from claw. Yeah, I'm not sure how much
7:53
running up those stairs he could do, but he'd be hanging.
7:55
Out below OH. My God, yeah.
8:01
Into the Dalek, he'd be full of righteous fury.
8:08
I don't bloody care if I'm a good man, my child.
8:12
And the Ghost monument split off from the TARDIS on a on a long
8:18
adventure, we've stuck with the same people.
8:22
Maybe there's like a hedging of bets with the second story of
8:24
like, OK, yeah, maybe. It's just a bit more traditional
8:27
a. Traditional story, yeah.
8:29
Yeah, and you want to. You've established your new team
8:32
and you want them to bed in. So yeah, maybe, maybe this
8:36
works. Whoever you were, brilliant and
8:39
insightful person write in We want to know.
8:42
If someone can remember, because I've read so many Doctor Who
8:45
things, they could be anyone, anywhere.
8:48
But as my reading was said at the beginning there, John
8:51
Lucarotti took the first pass of this, didn't he?
8:54
Yes. And wrote a very different sort
8:56
of script. What script you would definitely
8:58
would have given William Hartnell?
9:00
Yes. And that was not what they
9:02
wanted. I mean, this, this production
9:04
team, Philip Hinchcliffe is very, we're not recreating the
9:09
past. We're not, we're not going
9:11
there, he says. Also, a memo to Jerry Davis
9:15
saying this might be this might have been acceptable in your
9:18
time when you were writing for smaller kiddies, but now we need
9:22
to be a bit more adult. That's Robert Holmes, that is.
9:25
He's such a big. Some of the memos in that.
9:27
Book I know his memos are brilliant it's.
9:30
Like me, Like these people have written for Doctor Who.
9:33
Why can't they write Doctor Who You?
9:35
Know it's Doctor Who. As every script editor found out
9:40
from the late 60s onwards, Doctor Who isn't like anything
9:45
else and so it's really difficult to write so well.
9:50
I have a question from Fraser because first of all, I want to
9:54
say a big thank you to everyone on Twitter because I put a plea
9:58
out last night and we had 55 replies and a hell of a lot of
10:02
questions. So we've got a lot to get
10:04
through as well as the commentary.
10:05
Many questions. We're starting them before we
10:07
even start the story. Exactly.
10:09
So Fraser asks, what makes a great Bob Bob Holmes story so
10:14
great? Oh, how do you knuckle that
10:18
down? Because, OK, shall we put, shall
10:20
we say a couple of things each? Yeah, OK.
10:22
Right. You go.
10:23
Right. He can sketch in a world in a
10:28
few lines of dialogue, which is incredible.
10:31
So in the art we get this later on, and I'll point this out as
10:35
we go along. He writes with an incredible
10:40
sense of wit, so his dialogue is often very quotable and very
10:45
funny. I'm just going to pull one out
10:48
of thin air. Repairing a generator look loop
10:52
is like repairing a watch with a hammer and chisel.
10:55
One false move and you'll never know the time again, you know?
10:58
And there are plenty of lines in this one.
11:01
Yeah. I think also he's very good at a
11:04
setting and exploring that setting very well.
11:08
He create as so he sometimes creates the whole world in lines
11:12
of dialogue, but also he creates the whole world by putting the
11:15
characters that belong in that world in there and plays with
11:19
them. And the Doctor is the disruptive
11:21
element. So I always think of Carnival of
11:23
Monsters with Borg and Scherner against the Inter into minor
11:29
people and then the Doctor coming in who's different again?
11:34
But then using carnivore monsters as a he's not afraid as
11:36
well to have off screen characters that impact the story
11:39
like President Zob and people like that.
11:42
Yeah, the graph in Decay's brother.
11:45
Characters you know but you don't ever see.
11:48
And OK, then the last thing I'll say is, is because he's not
11:52
afraid to scare the kids. No, not at.
11:55
All no, he was sitting there in the corner of the room rubbing
11:57
his hands together saying let's scare the little buggers.
12:00
And you know, this script is a very good example of off the
12:04
leash how far he's willing to go.
12:08
Yeah, and I think it's also sort of he works out that suddenly
12:14
Doctor Who works best when the Doctor is pitted against a
12:18
villain that is equal and opposite to the Doctor.
12:24
And so we get this time and again through the next three
12:26
years where it's one central big villain or one representative of
12:31
a monster race that can talk, and it works brilliantly.
12:35
It's just like he's found his formula for Doctor Who, I think,
12:39
with the Time Warrior. I think Lynx is the first one of
12:44
those characters that he really writes where he thinks, oh, hang
12:47
on, I just need one. And they'll do.
12:51
They'll do one really well because they will spend the
12:54
money wisely. And so we could create a really
12:57
good race. And then the doctor's just got
12:59
someone to spar against and off we go.
13:02
Master and deadly assassin Sutec.
13:03
Sutec. Mars, Yeah, we could go on and
13:06
on and on, couldn't we? Sol on.
13:08
Yeah, the whole lot. I'm not, I am not convinced that
13:12
there is a bad robber home script and I even think he's
13:15
weaker. Scripts like the Space Pirates
13:18
are packed full of fun lines, fun characters.
13:23
You know, he's sort of honing his craft there.
13:25
But I I don't think there's a dud.
13:27
No, I don't think they're. I think the Space Pirates was
13:30
maybe stretched out beyond its length and there's a four part
13:34
story that's really good there. It's just the first two episodes
13:37
drag on forever. Once you get Pulsos it's great.
13:40
Speaking of somebody who's used to being stretched out beyond my
13:43
length, I understand the Space Pirates pain.
13:49
Sorry. Right, so let's try and find
13:56
something. The Vt model work is not great.
14:03
Is it a shame that so much of this story is so good?
14:06
How is is it for you to ignore bad model work or bad effects?
14:11
So asks the lovely David Gillespie.
14:16
David Gillespie recently on Hamster Book Club we talking
14:19
about the unquiet dead. I actually when this came out
14:24
with the CGI effects on it, I only watched it with CGI effects
14:28
after that I really like. I know they look very.
14:31
You never do that joke. No, I don't usually, but I do
14:34
prefer that to the sort of shaky model work we get, because I
14:37
don't think it's the only sort of real production deficiency in
14:41
this. He's right and it's a shame.
14:43
It's a shame when there's one thing that's making you go, Oh
14:46
no, can they take another pass? What do you think?
14:52
Oh yeah. I mean, you know, it's fine.
14:55
It sells it, it's OK, but it's not great.
15:00
But then there are so many model shots in Doctor Who that are not
15:03
great. And this, this isn't bad BT
15:08
model work, it's just not up there.
15:12
And it's strange because there are shots of on film as well,
15:16
late at the end of the story where you see the arc and in
15:21
space, yeah. Angela Snyderman, They shoot
15:23
that on on film. Yeah.
15:24
So yeah, I don't know why the choice was to do some of the
15:28
shots on video. Maybe it was just time and
15:31
money, which is usually Doctor Who's thing so.
15:34
Thanks for your question, David. Yeah, Oh, hang on, what have we
15:43
got here? What is Tom holding on the cover
15:47
of the VHS and what the hell is he going to do with it?
15:50
Asks John Rivers. Hello, John.
15:53
She's got a strange sort of pen thing.
15:56
I thought it was a scionic lock from the last episode.
15:59
Yeah, and it's not ow. Oh, it's a sort of hypodermic
16:03
needle pen Sonic screwdrivery thing.
16:07
Anyone. What?
16:08
Picking up that VHS, you know, Yeah, See it there?
16:11
Yeah. Might think that's an important
16:13
plot point. And it's not at all.
16:15
Maybe it's just gobbins. Well, it usually is, and the
16:21
lovely Simon Fox, Uncle Beard says.
16:24
I really like the uniforms. Oh yes?
16:28
Well, someone else said later on, didn't they?
16:30
That the costume assistant? The costume woman.
16:34
When the kids. Back for the Stephen Moffatt.
16:36
Because she comes back to Doctor Who for for series Saveable.
16:41
That that is probably the biggest production gap, surely?
16:45
Well, it's going to be one of the one of the the biggest.
16:47
So yeah, I mean that that's fairly incredible really.
16:51
So it's. Sort of praised collars.
16:54
Yeah, yeah. And, and I remember watching A
16:56
Christmas Carol and thinking, yeah, that's Barbara Kidd.
16:59
Those are exactly the same white uniforms with Big Paddy over the
17:03
top. Wow.
17:05
Good honour for for recycling her ideas.
17:09
But also we should comment that we both would like to get lost
17:12
in Uncle Beard's beard, which is fabulous.
17:13
It is an immensely brilliant beard.
17:17
It's the best beard and fan it is.
17:21
OK. Should we do one more?
17:22
OK, right. OK, they went to great lengths
17:31
to CGI the beacon. Couldn't they have done the same
17:36
for the bubble wrap and? What's?
17:39
That that was Lord Steerforth. Well, hello, Lord Steerforth.
17:45
He also says that it's his favorite Doctor Who story, so it
17:49
can't be a big objection. How pleasant to have a member of
17:52
the Gentry putting a comic. Absolutely blunt pen knife Fred
17:56
always welcome. Bubble wrap is that bad but.
18:01
It's always time, isn't it? And like Hinchcliffe goes to
18:06
great pains to say every time it's brought up in the behind
18:10
the sofa, nobody had bubble wrap at the time.
18:13
It wasn't material they were using so.
18:16
I looked this up. Bubble wrap was invented in 1957
18:20
and was made made available to the general public in 1960.
18:25
But that was in the USA, so all these things take time to come
18:28
over. So, you know, he's probably
18:30
about right. Yeah, now and there's a.
18:34
No. And there is a history of Doctor
18:36
Who costume designers using new and exciting material to create
18:40
new and exciting costumes. So you know, they didn't know it
18:44
was going to become everywhere and in All in all the parcels
18:49
that we send with our DVDs and our books to tell all the other
18:52
fans to in do they? So you know.
18:55
You remember the judicious use of the fabulous new substance
18:59
green paint that was put all over the Merka in Warriors of
19:02
the Deep. What exactly?
19:06
Well, look, I think we should probably have a little stroll on
19:09
into Episode 1. Probably.
19:11
Probably. Can I say something about the
19:14
story before we go in? Yeah.
19:16
What I think this is unique in one.
19:19
I mean, it's unique in many respects, but in one particular
19:22
respect I think it's the only Doctor Who story I can think of
19:27
in a classic run which is staggeringly overlit as creepier
19:34
for it. Yeah, it's, it's odd, isn't it?
19:36
I'm Rodney Bennett in the in the extra in the making of
19:40
documentary said he wanted it lit brightly because he said it
19:46
would just work. He said.
19:48
Because you've got these sterile white sets and you want to make
19:52
that that pop. And so they lit it high.
19:57
And actually it works better than in the I like the scenes
20:01
where they're in the dark when they go down to the solar
20:04
stacks. And that's really good.
20:05
And that's really creepy. But that's because it's the
20:08
contrast to the bright lights everywhere else in the Ark.
20:12
I think you've got no shadows. You've got nowhere to hide.
20:15
Like, no, Exactly. They're they're.
20:18
Yeah. They kind of get you, you know?
20:19
Yeah. And it is weird that, and I
20:22
think that might be one of the things that really stood out to
20:25
people watching this at the time, that sort of clinical
20:28
horror. Yeah, it's, yeah.
20:30
It's very 70s sci-fi. There's a lot of very white
20:33
clean places in sort of this this time.
20:37
I think it comes from from 2001, although I'm not the hugest fans
20:41
of that film. I think that sort of future
20:43
design, it's a very 70s thing. Well, it just means as well,
20:48
because there's big open bright sets that when that grub,
20:53
suddenly there's a cut to that grub dashing across the floor at
20:57
y'all, you're like. Fuck yeah, exactly.
21:00
It's great because you can see it.
21:04
Well, that's alright. I mean, I feel as if we've
21:05
already talked about this, but we met.
21:07
Yeah, there's a hell of a lot more to do yet, so.
21:10
Well hang on, let me get I better get the episode ready.
21:13
After all the reparation time, I'm still not ready.
21:17
It's always the way. So so sorry.
21:20
Oh no, brick box is playing up now.
21:22
Come on, help me stall. OK, come on.
21:25
Come on. The Arc in space song or
21:27
something I don't think. There's an Arc in Space song
21:31
that I'm aware of. I can tell you that the first
21:34
episode was broadcast on the day my mum and dad got married.
21:39
Was it the first? It might have been the second.
21:41
I think it may have been the second because my cousin who is
21:44
a big Doctor Who fan interrupted the the the wedding reception to
21:48
go and watch an episode of Arkin Space and he remembered watching
21:52
the Arkin Space at my mum and dad's wedding.
21:55
So. I think that's a perfectly
21:56
reasonable thing to do. Absolutely I I went to my
21:59
cousin's wedding and watched Fear Her with all the kids.
22:02
I nearly. Left.
22:04
It to go and watch Heaven sent. Not quite well did you end up
22:10
punching walls after? That what an.
22:13
Entertaining day. I was told I wasn't allowed to
22:15
leave the wedding, you know otherwise.
22:17
Unbelievable. The marriage might have been
22:19
over with on that. I mean, it only lasted about a
22:22
year anyway, but. But Even so, yeah.
22:26
OK. I'm ready now.
22:27
Thank you. OK, so here we go in 54321.
22:35
Let's go. And we've got.
22:38
This now. Yeah, we've got an interesting
22:40
coloured title sequence this week.
22:42
Yeah, what's going? Because they decided they tried.
22:44
They thought, Oh well, we we'll see if we can change the colours
22:48
and we'll tint it and use coloured filters over the top.
22:50
I don't like it. Just looks wrong and creepy and
22:53
weird. Well, it sort of looks a bit
22:56
sepian, you know, that sort of filter people.
22:58
Yeah. Photographs to make it look.
22:59
Yeah, Oldie. Yeah, and it's not quite right,
23:01
is it? No, not at all.
23:04
Not at. All but we go straight in and
23:06
we're into space. And this is one of my favorite
23:09
pieces of music that Dudley Simpson ever wrote.
23:11
This dumb, this music creeping up to the yeah, he's got his,
23:21
he's got his sympathise. He's still working with the
23:23
Radiophonic Workshop, so he's got the synthesizers going.
23:26
So it feels creepy, that bit where it goes.
23:31
But there's like this weird high pitched scream in the music that
23:36
plays throughout. It's like a woman screaming in.
23:39
Space. Yeah.
23:40
I was like, it's. So creepy.
23:43
And it's just that sense of movement that something is
23:45
coming, something is is there. And this is something we rarely
23:50
do. It was completely without
23:51
dialogue. We could see exactly what was
23:53
going on. Something was coming towards the
23:55
arc. APIP shot of it going through
23:59
what's it called, the Cryo Jennings.
24:00
Yeah, there's tons of mystery and suspense.
24:04
Yeah, that's that's the way you open a Doctor Who story that's
24:08
really good. That's the way you do it.
24:11
Yeah, and this is great. This is Rodney Bennett landing
24:13
the TARDIS without doing a the TARDIS landing.
24:18
He just turns the lights on. But you could do that when it's
24:22
in the dark. Oh, that's quite clever.
24:24
Yeah, come outside you clumsy hand fisted.
24:31
I've gone mad. That's how I felt the first
24:35
time. Sigh.
24:37
So yeah, so here they are. And they're just magnificent
24:41
straight off, aren't they? They are, it feels very
24:45
comfortable. I mean, I know they they filmed
24:48
the Sontaran Experiment before this as well as robots, so
24:52
they've had a little time to bed in.
24:54
But even in in the Sontaran Experiment, they're together
24:58
straight away. Oh, everything behind the scenes
25:01
pretty much as they just all adored each other, didn't they?
25:04
Yes, Tom adored Ian. So there was no conflict there
25:07
with having no need. I think Ian and Sarah got on to
25:11
the point that I think that she says like he used to come round
25:15
and see Satan sleeping or something like that.
25:17
So they had a really good relationship.
25:19
And Tom and Elizabeth? Well.
25:21
Well, exactly. The people will say it's Tom and
25:24
Nala, the greatest love story and Doctor Who, but.
25:26
Yeah, they're, they're so good together right from the start.
25:29
And one of the questions we've got, I'll have to look up who it
25:34
was from, asks about Sarah Jane in this story.
25:38
And has she lost her agency? Oh, it's the lovely Daniel
25:42
Knight. Hello, Daniel.
25:44
Who says? Why does Sarah go from plucky
25:46
investigative journalist to weedy flapping ornament in this
25:49
story? Is the Sarah Jane of the Pertwee
25:52
era better written than the Tom Baker version?
25:54
Or maybe you don't think there's a difference?
25:57
I think there's definitely a shift.
25:59
I think it is a problem because I'm I do love her as the sort of
26:04
plucky journalist with tons of agency and.
26:07
We said in in Invasion of the Dinosaurs, she is the second
26:11
lead. She is driving the story.
26:13
We also said it in the unreleased Planet of the Spiders
26:16
commentary, which is. We did and we did say it in
26:19
Genesis and we, I think we mentioned this in Genesis of the
26:21
Daleks. Apologies for repeating.
26:24
Ourselves, but someone's got in. This team has got to get into
26:30
trouble. You've got to split them up.
26:32
I can make an excuse for it though.
26:34
Elizabeth Slade, She just smooths it all out.
26:37
Well, yes, she's like Jenna Coleman in that thing that she's
26:41
given what's written and she just plays it how she should
26:44
play it. Or you get her first doctor.
26:46
There's not much air in here acting that she comes back to
26:49
again and again. It's brilliant.
26:51
She is so good at I can't. It's that breathy panic isn't.
26:57
It doctor but. You know what we love?
27:02
Elizabeth Slayden. Yeah.
27:04
Yeah. And so whatever characterization
27:07
she's getting for Sarah Jane, we love her, you know?
27:09
She makes it work. And I don't think it's always
27:11
the case because I do think there are Hinge Cliff stories
27:14
where she's very strong. Yeah, and she gets she gets hero
27:17
moments in this story later on as well.
27:21
But I think in the commentary she says she was feeling almost
27:28
unloved by the production team and feeling that she was a bit
27:31
sidelined because Harry was getting a lot of action and
27:35
things like that. And she wasn't sure what her
27:37
place was. But Philip Hinchcliffe reassured
27:42
her that she was brilliant and she was the vital part of this
27:45
team. I mean, she's the one that
27:47
lasted, and she nearly lasted the whole era.
27:50
Yeah, exactly. So I this is really early Tom.
27:54
This is Tom before he knows he's a hit.
27:58
Yes. You think this is different to
28:01
what we get later? What what's he doing that that's
28:04
that's different because there is something perceptible that
28:06
he's not he's he's there fully formed, but he's not over
28:12
performing. I think he's acting.
28:15
That's the difference. I think later on he's
28:17
performing. Yes.
28:19
Here he's trying to impress, so he is word perfect with the
28:23
script. Yeah, we don't get that very
28:26
often. And he's playing it for all the
28:28
drama that he can. He's bringing moments of comedy
28:32
and humor. He he wants to be a success.
28:34
So I don't think he's misbehaving behind the scenes.
28:38
No, I've been he's, he's looking at everyone.
28:42
Yeah, don't get that later. But basically, isn't that first
28:46
year of sort of well behaved behaviour before?
28:49
Yeah, I think you can see almost see him working at this.
28:55
And it's not that he's not sure of what he's doing because he's
28:58
on it straight away, but he's, there are moments in this, I
29:01
think, where he's working on the characterization and he's not
29:04
quite comfortable with everything he's been given.
29:08
And he's not quite maybe he's not there behind the scenes
29:11
saying this isn't what my doctor is because he doesn't quite know
29:14
yet. And Fred Hinchcliffe sort of
29:16
tell us those stories. Doesn't he have?
29:18
So Tom, you're you're a benevolent alien.
29:20
You're an alien. Your your reactions are
29:22
different. You react yellow, black, gleam,
29:27
yellow black glean, says Paul Quinn.
29:32
Why does Tom's pronunciation of? He said you need to do the
29:36
impression of this apparently Joe, because you used to do this
29:38
very well. Yellow black of us an Indian
29:42
because like yellow, black, green.
29:45
Yes, it's almost like there's there's lots of L's and lots of
29:48
E's in the way, he says. It's very different to how
29:51
Terence Dix says it, isn't it, Queen?
29:54
Queen. Queen.
29:56
No one fucking, says Green. No.
29:59
That feller in Blackadder says it when he discovers it green.
30:04
Green. OK, you and I have got to
30:09
discuss these sets. Yes, Roger Murray Leach.
30:14
What a find. Yeah, and again, Philippine,
30:18
Swift says. I didn't know him.
30:19
He was just assigned to the show and he got it.
30:24
And, and, he says on the behind the sofa, people were coming
30:27
into the studio from other productions because the word was
30:31
going around that there was this incredible set for Doctor Who.
30:35
Yeah, I mean love. Is this?
30:38
It's so functional, there's butts everywhere.
30:41
Yeah. And these are all, a lot of
30:44
these are stock bits of set that we've seen before.
30:46
So there's the tape reels from Boss and the the sort of lights
30:51
and panels from Boss that are sort of everywhere all over this
30:55
era. But it's just, I don't know,
30:57
it's what he does with it. I mean, that panel that's
31:00
sloping. We never had sloping panels like
31:03
that before and things like. That things all over the wall,
31:07
yeah. Where as a kid I was like, what?
31:09
What does that do? You know, and again, it's the
31:12
set very stark and white, which is a very new thing for Doctor
31:16
Who. It weirdly feels very busy
31:20
because there's a lot of panels and stuff, and very stark
31:23
because there's a lot of space. Yeah, and there's lots of bits
31:26
where there's lights flashing and and things like that.
31:29
So that gives it a sense of urgency.
31:32
Don't get me wrong, we've had like detailed incredible sets
31:36
and Doctor Who before this. Like I think especially when
31:38
Doctor Who goes into history, they do a.
31:40
Particular, but they don't do space like this.
31:42
Not as well as this, and I feel like this is a story where there
31:47
isn't too much going on in Episode 1, You know, there's a
31:49
mystery, but it is basically I'm just wondering about.
31:51
So the setting has got to be vivid.
31:54
Yeah, and it is. And we haven't even got to the
31:57
best set of all yet. Well, well, the two best sets I
32:00
was. Going to say, I think we're
32:01
going to disagree on what's the best set because for me it's the
32:04
corridors. Oh, right, and for me it's the
32:06
cryogenic chamber, so the. Cryogenic Chamber is easily the
32:10
most impressive set. Yeah, but just.
32:12
But the corridor. Design those so it always goes a
32:16
little bit off in out into the. Distance.
32:18
So you. Yeah.
32:18
So you can't see the end of it, so it feels like it's bigger.
32:22
Round and round and round. It's so clever.
32:25
And again, Philip Hinchcliffe has been very clever with his
32:29
budgets here because he's using the same set for two stories, so
32:33
you can have a bit more money to make it because you're going to
32:37
use it twice. Do you think Philip Hinchcliffe
32:41
was the most savvy producer Doctor Who had in terms of can
32:45
we realise this, Can we do this well?
32:49
Yes, I think he certainly got that.
32:51
I mean, I, I think Barry Letts was very clever with the money
32:54
as well, but he had a lot of money and Philip Hinchcliffe has
32:56
a lot of money. Well, I think Barry was willing
32:59
to say, well, you know, we'll, we'll attempt that with CSO with
33:05
I think it's like, no, no, no. Can we do this alien junk or
33:08
impact? Yeah.
33:09
And I think sometimes that makes the era play it a bit safe
33:15
because they're not, they're not being hugely adventurous.
33:18
They work out a formula that works for Doctor Who and they
33:22
use that a lot, which is fine and it's incredibly successful
33:25
because it's still absolutely loved by so many people and it's
33:30
still held up as the pinnacle of Doctor Who for so many people.
33:33
So it did something right, but it's not the most varied of era,
33:38
storytelling wise and things like that.
33:41
But they get the best out of all the resources they've got, and
33:45
Philip Hinchliffe puts the money on the screen.
33:48
I think it's probably the least humiliating period.
33:51
Of that, absolutely. Yeah, I think that.
33:52
There is something to be said for that.
33:55
Yeah, absolutely. As fans, we like it when Doctor
33:58
Who just looks OK. I just say that sequence there
34:02
where the man's saying, you know, no, do not move, and she's
34:05
and the camera's slowly going in on a classical music playing in
34:09
the background. This is as probably as hard SF
34:14
as TV Doctor, whoever got in how they're presenting this world.
34:18
Yeah, and that voice is Peter Tottenham of Blake 7.
34:22
It's a brilliant voice, yeah. And.
34:25
Then we got the Prime Minister who is talking from.
34:29
This is the and this Prime Minister speaking.
34:33
And this and again, this is the little bit of world building
34:36
that we've got here because there's obviously been a
34:38
catastrophe and you are going to be the the proud standard bearer
34:44
of humanity at this awesome moment.
34:48
You take all our paths with you. I that's yeah, that's sketching
34:54
it in the torch that's been handed down from generations.
34:58
I mean, that's. Nowadays they want to show you
35:01
all of the disaster and all of it, you know, whereas this is
35:06
just so economic. It's doing it with three lines.
35:08
Yeah, 3 lines and some light and some some lights and.
35:13
This bit here, right where they're shuffling around
35:15
underneath that console. Tom Baker behind the sofa is
35:19
going, what are we doing here? He goes.
35:21
They're going to start spreading rumours about us.
35:23
What are we up to under the table?
35:27
I mean, this is this is what's great about it.
35:29
It's incredibly serious, this story, yes, but there's still
35:32
moment for these bum shots and things like that.
35:34
You know, yeah and yeah. And Harry losing his shoes and
35:38
it. Oh, it's so funny and their
35:42
chemistry is so good. Yeah, and Tom doesn't get
35:47
another male companion like this.
35:50
It's a short. And drink.
35:52
And there is something about that.
35:54
Works as well, I think, Yes. And it's so simple, All they've
35:59
got So. So there's a, there's a threat
36:02
and there's a simple solution, but the threat is stopping them
36:05
from finding the solution. It's.
36:06
Yeah. And there's tension between the
36:12
doctor and Harry because Harry's a bit bumbling and and silly and
36:15
has set this all off. And there's suspense because we
36:18
know Sarah's been caught up in the works and they need.
36:21
And they don't. But they don't know what's
36:23
happened to. Her and they're just arsing
36:25
around under a table and she's getting caught up in the works.
36:29
Yes, fantastic stuff. It's really stripped back.
36:34
Doctor Who, which I like, you know, and so you know, me and
36:38
the Stephen Moffett era, it can get a bit OK for me.
36:41
But this is what again, what harking back to the Under the
36:46
Lake episode, the bit that we really liked about that episode
36:49
was the Doctor and Clara exploring a place that is
36:52
seemingly deserted and trying to work out what's happened.
36:56
And this is what's happening here, only it's longer, so
36:59
you've got much more time with the regulars.
37:02
Remembering that this is Steven Moffett and Rusty Davis,
37:05
favorite Doctor Who stories. Yeah, exactly.
37:07
And it's a template for a certain type of Doctor Who.
37:12
I don't think Russell T did a lot of that, you know?
37:14
Then not a completely abandoned setting.
37:17
No, no, I don't think he did. They but he always got to the
37:21
characters very quickly. Yes, because that was what he
37:24
was interested in, good at. But sometimes the mystery is is
37:27
a big thing as well. You know, sigh, I hear Madam
37:31
Nostradamus was a very witty knitter.
37:33
Yeah, she certainly was my shoes.
37:38
And then Harry walks around barefoot.
37:40
The rest of the story. She's.
37:42
Really fun, isn't it? Look at this and they're about
37:45
to start pumping in the dry ice. Yeah, and Dudley Simpson's music
37:49
is just nice and creepy at this moment, so you know something is
37:52
is wrong. It's you know what?
37:55
Me and Mark have been having long discussions recently about
37:58
the difference between ambient music and sort of big orchestral
38:03
tracks. And the older I'm getting, the
38:05
more I like this sort of ambient music.
38:08
And the less me to the bombastic music.
38:11
And that's why I like to 2nd a Canola's music so much, because
38:14
you don't necessarily notice it, but it affects the way you're
38:17
watching the story. Definitely.
38:19
Yeah, I like the fact as well. It's a complete accident.
38:23
He just happened to put her on that couch, which beats straight
38:27
into the cryogenic. Oh, look at this set.
38:34
Yeah, it's good. And it's just got the star field
38:37
in the background and it they're just very light, but it's just
38:40
done so beautifully. It sort of reminds me a bit of
38:43
Deep Space 9, you know? Yeah, and you've got the echo on
38:46
The Voice, which makes it again feel bigger and like it's a bit
38:50
more exposed. The difference is is deep Space
38:53
9 had a budget of 19,000,000 for its pilots.
38:57
Arc in Space had frappans. This is a sterile area.
39:01
Keep out. How many?
39:06
Oh, there's a fabulous sequence in a minute.
39:08
Right where they discovered the complete library of human
39:12
thought. Yeah, just as a fucking concept.
39:16
That is huge. Yeah, that's fine.
39:19
Yeah. Oh, definitely.
39:21
Oh yes, see. What was that?
39:22
What was that? It's.
39:23
That disgusting, horrible little slimy bug, you know Now I do
39:29
love bugs, you know I mean my house is old so it's absolutely
39:32
cruel, but the ones I can't get on with are the slimy ones.
39:36
So interesting slugs and things, you know so this is primal fears
39:42
for me arc in space. It's horrible, Something about.
39:47
Doctor Who and giant insects. Yeah.
39:50
It just works, doesn't it? Well, it's like Holmes has
39:53
looked over his shoulder of what has worked in the previous
39:56
victim and gone. We'll have a bit of that.
39:59
Yeah, we're not having the zombie, but giant Mackets, Yeah.
40:03
But I've got to give it a really good dramatic story.
40:06
You know, this pupa that goes inside?
40:08
Somebody lays his eggs. Oh God, the whole premise of
40:12
this is grim. It is grim.
40:18
I think we see that wall, you know, with those.
40:21
That's back a lot. Yeah, I think we see.
40:23
That's back a hell of a lot that turns up in Blake 7 as well, so
40:27
repainted every so often, but. Inside this huge sort of BBC
40:32
warehouse of old science fiction sets.
40:34
Oh. Yeah, we'll have that.
40:35
Yeah, that's with that and the triangular walls.
40:37
Yep, set up. Being able to explore it in the
40:40
70s. Well, exactly.
40:42
Geez, we're coming up. That's when we the second we
40:43
walked in trying to determine which story everything's from.
40:48
And I like them. We don't see it, but this is a
40:51
repository of all the animals and plants, as well as
40:56
literature and everything else. So he builds this picture of
41:00
this ark. So we've got all the
41:01
information, we've got all the animals.
41:03
Which leads past the very important question.
41:07
Well, what happened to the human?
41:09
Race what exactly? And then on.
41:11
Queue the door opens. Yeah, what's it all for?
41:16
I love it when Harry goes. Are you telling me it's all
41:19
going to end up here? Not end, Harry.
41:23
More pause. Like Harry Riot by rights,
41:27
because he's very old fashioned and he's a bit sexist.
41:31
He should be a bit appalling, but Ian Marr.
41:33
But he's plays him with such warmth, he's just lovely.
41:37
I think I don't think there is a male companion as successfully
41:41
sort of underdoggy until we get to Rory in the new series.
41:46
And you just can't help but love them both.
41:48
No, I know it's because there's always a terrible things that
41:51
are always happening to both of them.
41:53
Yeah. No tea, Harry.
41:56
And here we go, just to get a sliding door and this first
42:00
glimpse. You tell me what's so impressive
42:02
about this set. Go on, you just buy this set.
42:07
I, I don't think they've done space on this scale before.
42:12
They've always, there's been lots of space stations.
42:14
We've seen lots of bases in the future, but I don't think
42:17
they've done anything quite like this that is tiered, that goes
42:21
up. Doctor Who usually goes across
42:23
if it wants to be big, it doesn't go up.
42:26
And Rodney Bennett gives this the sense of scale because he's
42:29
got a lot to play with. And the looking the direction,
42:32
looking down at the doctor and Harry also means you suddenly
42:36
feel like this is this is a huge place.
42:38
It's probably a tiny set, but it feels cavernous and huge.
42:43
And they've got the mirrors which look out like you've got
42:46
another set, even though it's just reflecting the set that you
42:49
that you're in. That makes it feel like there's
42:51
another one can. You tell us a mirror.
42:53
No, I didn't know till it was pointed out.
42:55
And like, I think that sense of depth perception means it feels
43:01
like it goes on and on. Go.
43:03
In my head, it goes into another room, into another room, into
43:07
another room, Yeah. Adults and it's just having the
43:10
humans the the extras in the pods.
43:13
Go on, do the speech. Homo sapiens.
43:17
What an amazing, inventive, invincible species.
43:22
Good go. So I can't keep up with him now,
43:28
but. This is Tom, I said first.
43:31
Grandstanding moment where he can use his voice.
43:35
And in in this book, Robert Holmes says this this speech was
43:40
his first opportunity to bring in his vision for the show.
43:44
So this sort of humanity survives that.
43:49
That's part of what he wanted to bring to Doctor.
43:51
Who? Yeah.
43:51
And Russell T Davis quotes it doesn't.
43:53
He gets David Tennant to say, oh, human beings, you're
43:56
inventable. And because it's such a but it.
44:02
It's. Yeah, but it's such a defining
44:06
image of humanity that no matter what, they survive.
44:11
But also as well, it's such a responsible use of the character
44:13
because Harry's a doctor. So that comes into this as well,
44:16
where he has to look after Sarah and the helper.
44:18
But he's learning, sort of. I'm going to say it.
44:21
Terry Nation, you'll be proud. Space Medicine.
44:24
Yeah, but just that idea that the entire human race is there
44:28
and there's been such a huge catastrophe that all races,
44:33
colours and creeds are, as Doctor says, are finally
44:36
forgotten because they've got to survive.
44:39
Wonderful, and please let that be the future we're heading
44:42
towards colours and creeds and all.
44:45
You know our issues and isms are gone, but then they just hire a
44:49
white cast. Yeah, all of this.
44:52
Yeah. And this is the problem, another
44:55
problem of this era that I'm not going to get into, but it's a
44:58
problem of this time that they say these things, but then they
45:02
don't act on it, which is a shame.
45:05
And it is. You know what, it is a little
45:07
bit Star Trek as well, isn't it? It's sort of leaning into the
45:10
rod and bear. Oh yeah, nothing Star Trek about
45:13
the tone of this. No, not at all.
45:15
You wouldn't. Star Trek doesn't do stories
45:17
like this. I mean, Shatner, he'd be
45:19
wandering around this arc with his shirt off.
45:24
Yeah, battling the grub. I would like to see that, you
45:29
know, What do you think? Because we're coming up.
45:33
Oh, no. We're going to discover Sarah
45:34
first, aren't we? Yes.
45:37
So do we. That's a great twist.
45:38
Have we made the link that her in that cabinet means she's
45:42
going to end up in one of? These I don't think so.
45:43
I don't think there is any reason to.
45:46
I think there are clues, but you know, there's no reason to think
45:50
she would end up there. We we don't know.
45:55
What's astonishing about this episode yet is thought it should
45:59
be boring. Yeah, it's just a couple of
46:02
characters wandering around empty sets, you know, like it
46:06
should be very boring. Why isn't it?
46:10
Because the regulars are just so brilliant.
46:13
You just want to be with them and you want to spend time with
46:15
them and. I think the world building as
46:17
well, like we've, you know, it's so impressive.
46:20
Yeah. We're sort of discovering,
46:23
discovering this world a bit at a time, aren't we?
46:25
Yeah. And we're getting the clues as
46:27
they're getting the clues. It bleeds into episode 2 as well
46:30
because when Vira comes out and she starts dropping one liners
46:34
about, you know, pair bonding and things, you know, the the IT
46:41
just gets more and more vivid. This.
46:46
And that's just the monster falling out of a cupboard.
46:50
Jesus Christ, I tell you. What?
46:51
That is very, very well done. It's a good shock.
46:54
It's a jump scare. It's good.
46:57
Why don't do too many jump skaters in classic?
46:59
Who? Really.
46:59
No. Just opening a door and a
47:02
monster's there, that's wonderful.
47:04
I was in a cupboard once, you know, right when somebody's
47:07
house came home and he opened the door and I don't, No, I'm
47:10
joking. I've never right.
47:14
Come on, we need questions. So.
47:18
Right, What have we got? Michael Storm.
47:21
Hello, Michael says. Do you think in writing episode
47:25
1, Robert Holmes picked a copy of Terry Nation's Guide to
47:28
Writing a cracking Part 1 of Doctor Who?
47:31
Because if I didn't know the author structure wise, I would
47:34
believe this to be a Nation script.
47:37
Always whipping up a riot storm Michael, where this question is?
47:40
But he's he's absolutely right. This is like episode 1.
47:44
This is like the dead planet. This is like.
47:47
And in the Daleks. Yeah, Dalek Invasion of Earth,
47:50
where you're you've landed somewhere and there's a mystery
47:53
and you're exploring the world. That there are fundamental
47:58
differences though. Yes.
48:00
The dialogue is sharper, I think.
48:03
I think like Nation paints a vivid picture of, I don't know,
48:08
let's take the Dalek invasion of Earth as an example, but
48:11
nobody's getting speeches like Tom Baker got in this.
48:15
No, John Arnold asks us. Is Tom's delivery of the Homo
48:21
sapiens speech a tad on the stagey side?
48:27
Well, yeah, but a lot of classic Doctor Who is a little bit on
48:29
the stage, yeah. And I don't think that's a bad
48:32
thing because this is the doctor grandstanding and I.
48:36
Don't think of another big speech in the classic series to
48:40
see if it's really stagey. Oh yeah, per wee and time
48:44
monster. That's very stare.
48:47
So, you know, I don't. Yes it is.
48:50
But this is a stage actor who knows how to deliver these
48:55
things and give them the grandness that they they
49:00
deserve. I think we can say about that
49:02
sequence is when people think about the arc in space, they
49:07
think about that sequence immediately.
49:09
So one that's stuck in people's. Heads, I think we covered this
49:15
in the episode, but Darren lit Roundels, who's always asks a
49:18
good question, says does Tom Baker deliver a better
49:22
performance before he knows that the public like him?
49:27
See better subjective. Yes.
49:29
Different, definitely. Yeah, I think he gets better as
49:35
he goes on, but I'd never see him on the back foot.
49:39
I think like this, where he's unsure of himself to this extent
49:43
ever again. I think the two performances he
49:46
gives in Arc in Space and Genesis of the Daleks, and
49:49
that's his two big performances in Season 12, you're right,
49:53
they're unique. I don't think we ever see that
49:56
in 13. He knows his success and there's
50:00
a confidence to him. You know, it's big bold Tom.
50:04
And then come sort of 14 and 15 grumpy Tom's in and you know,
50:09
and then 1617. He is just having a way of a
50:13
time. He's having his best time,
50:14
Doctor. Who and Fraser Gregory?
50:19
You may have heard of him, someone says.
50:22
Is the doctor's indomitable speech celebrating humanity or
50:26
denigrating them? I think it's celebrating
50:31
humanity. And then Holmes brilliantly
50:33
punches that in the second episode when people start coming
50:37
out and they do make like racist and classist comments.
50:44
And so it's like this is what it should be and this is what it
50:48
is. Yeah, I, I, I think you can read
50:52
it as the some of the bits, the doctors saying like all, all
51:00
differences forgotten, like criticism of the human race up
51:03
to this point. And it takes a catastrophe to
51:05
get that. But the fact that they do that
51:09
means they will survive and they get better.
51:13
So there we go. The the society as presented in
51:17
this, the people, they're not people.
51:19
I would want to build a society. I don't know, not even Vira.
51:25
We'll get there. But we will.
51:26
We haven't even met this fire. A person, whoever she is.
51:30
Maybe we'll see her in Part 2.