Latest / ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence / Shyam Sekhar on The Founder's Guide to Finance (#029)

Transcript

Shyam Sekhar on The Founder's Guide to Finance (#029) · ContraMinds Podcast - Unlocking Personal Growth and Professional Excellence

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: You are putting notes into a machine, thinking that it's an APM and it will give you back money anytime.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You put all the notes inside, and you look up until you realize that it's a paper shaker.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everyone, welcome to a brand new edition of ContraMinds.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: In today's episode, we are in conversation with Sharpshaker.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sharmshaker is the founder and creator of iTunes Financial Consulting LSP.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: He's an active and renowned IQ investor with over 30 years of experience in the financial market.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Sean, thanks very much for uh giving us time and talking to us on this podcast.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure, Tommy.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most important things that I found interesting about what you do today is really a contra view that you have about investments, about portfolios, about the way you go about investing.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you're also an angel investor.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: You look at startups, you look at how startups get funded, how entrepreneurs need to really look at capital, and you have really uh different views about how normally this gets done in this era, and probably how it has to be done from first principles, right?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: In your opinion, if I were an entrepreneur and if I actually were doing a startup, uh how should I understand the word capital?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Capital is something that bridges an idea to a proof of concept.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first bridge, okay.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, entrepreneurs come with ideas.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so entrepreneurs know that they want to do something, they're very clear that they want to do this.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but for them to do what they want to do and to prove the idea, what we call as a proof of concept, they need capital first.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, so capital for an entrepreneur at the starting point is money that will help him prove that his idea is good, it is scalable, and it can be taken to a next level.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, beyond that, at the starting point, an entrepreneur need not unduly worry about uh capital.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first point.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are right, then you there are going to be believers in your idea.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: If you are wrong, you'll probably move to the next idea.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we also have many entrepreneurs who portrayed ideas which did not do well, and then they went on to do more ideas which went on to become hugely successful.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Great.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: When you look at this whole uh startup ecosystem that's actually uh you know got a lot of hype nowadays.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, normally it is said that uh equity capital is the most expensive, and uh you know you don't give away uh so much of equity capital at the start, uh, but that does not seem to be the general philosophy nowadays, right?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So they just go out and say, okay, let me raise as much capital at uh you know whether it's an early stage or whether you are at a seeds, seed stage.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, how is the thinking on equity capital changed over maybe your generation to this uh you know uh Gen Z or millennial generation?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, um in the earlier autars, equity capital once diluted could not be reset.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: That is the first point.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Today, entrepreneurs bring value to companies, which is something which will evolve, it's not set at the dilution stage, it can always be changed subsequently as well.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the dilution of equity as a concept has always been a problem area, whether it was uh in a different era or in the present era, it is always difficult.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Earlier, we used to see people overdo the dilution.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: If I look at companies which started 9-10 years back, I see that the dilution is excessive.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: You will have a financial investor straight away owning some 30% today, even after multiple dilutions, which is in my view not reasonable, especially if you're just given one-time money, right?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: But today it's the other extreme, you are seeing very low dilution, as a result of which a lot of money has already gone into a business and the outcome is not significant.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the earlier era where there has been higher dilution of the founders, we are seeing cases where the outcomes are better, and in a latter era or in more recent times where there is lesser dilution for more capital going in, the outcomes are really not so great.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, the difference really is that earlier it was an excess on one extreme, and today it's probably an excess on the other extreme.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally, there should be a middle ground or somewhere closer to the middle ground, which will make this whole process of diluting capital of a founder, giving them growth capital, and then seeing outcomes more meaningful and productive.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Also, one more thing is that uh dilution must be more critically aligned to outcomes.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would be a better way to manage this because uh if somebody has shown the outcome or he has exceeded what he has sought to create, then the dilution should be fair to the person who has performed.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: And if somebody has given more capital than he ought to have, and if the performance is lagging, then he needs to be uh penalized, or the capital should be adequately priced, appropriately priced.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So this balance has to happen.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so so clearly uh uh you know there are multiple uh ways in which today you can raise capital, right?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So today you have warrants, you have convertible debt, you have uh equity financing.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: So uh if I am a company at a very very early stage, uh how should I look at uh my capital requirements and what are the best forms of early stage capital fundraise?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: What would you think is fair for uh an early stage startup enterprise?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that would entirely depend on the gestation of the idea, the structure of the business, uh, what is the financial structure of the business?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Assume that you are in a business where you don't have too much requirement of working capital.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: For example, your customers give you an advance, you deliver a product or a service over a period of time, then you could well be funded by the working capital itself.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to understand the structure of the business.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: You also have to explore whether the business you are going to do can be done differently from conventional base.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: See, there are businesses where you deliver a service and then you collect the money at the end of delivery of the service.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say you are giving a one-year service to somebody today.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: You have digital payments.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you change the terms of contract where they always just give you one month payment in advance?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, as you deliver, they pay almost.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so if the structure of the business can be changed, let us say you incentivize the person, it's like newspapers collect three year subscription in advance, it's capital, right?
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, digital media can also do it, it's capital, right?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So for every business, there will be an alternate way which we have not explored, which can become a source of capital.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if we can change the way we do business, that itself can also change the way we structure our capital.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So effectively, we should look at ways of doing business first.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is this the most optimal way to do business?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can we do it better?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And once we are arrived at the most optimal way to do the business we want to do, then we estimate how much capital we require.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Then we understand whether we will be needing that capital permanently.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: That is the next question.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Suppose I am going to do a business where in three years I will scale myself so much that after that, cash flows will be sufficient to run my business and my business will give cash back to me.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Then should I go for excess dilution of equity or should I have some optionally convertible equity with a reasonable horizon where I give the investor cover of debt and then decide whether it should become equity or be returned.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: So all this structuring should be done keeping in mind the nature of the business, my expectations of when the business will become self-sufficient, and whether I really require permanent capital.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think once we understand these things, then we decide what is the best financial structure for the company.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, brilliant.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Blindly raising money because it's available may not be a smart thing because somebody who understands your business better than you may actually overpay in the near term to take a higher stake.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you will realize this after three, four years, and there is no comeback after that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: In a number of businesses which don't require capital after they stabilize in two, three years, you see that the damage of dilution is done at the early stage itself.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a new way to do the same old business?
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is also something that has created a lot of opportunities for many startups, and then you figure out.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, Sham, we are in a very transitionary stage right now in this country where you know there's an old guard of business owner operators who were lifelong companymen and then they went and they venture on their own.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And now we have an entirely new swath of young people who want to either go work in venture or they uh come right out of college and they start building companies.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, my question is you know, how does the previous generation view capital differently from the current generation?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think it has to do only with our worldview of what is gratification.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that would decide what should be your expectation out of a business.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who don't like to do the same thing for 20, 30, 40 years.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: They build something with great passion over five to seven, ten years, and then when they feel that they have got the gratification they wanted out of the process of building something, then they decide to move on and they give a mature or relatively stable business to somebody else who can grow it and handle the maturity phase of the business.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas, if somebody wants to just sit back and enjoy the fruits of his creating something, then he may be interested in running a stable mature business also for 5 to 10 years later, longer.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is your gratification just merely owning businesses or is your gratification about getting value out of selling a business?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: There are different ways in which you view gratification.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: There is no uh one view, it's about what you are comfortable with.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing very very important is if your worldview of gratification is one thing, I see no merit in your trying to do something extremely far away from that view.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Try to be closer to what is your worldview of gratification, because only then you will do what you are naturally capable of doing well.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who are very good at organically building businesses.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, these guys are like the tortoise in the proverbial hare and tortoise place.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if a tortoise suddenly says that I am going to behave like a hare and I am going to impress all the venture capplays and try to tell them how I can do things very, very fast, he is going to be a little bit out of his depth doing something which is naturally not his faulting.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Doing that unnaturally or against your nature is not going to lead you to a good place.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: You are not going to get your gratification, and the people whom you take along in this journey are also not good fellow travelers to have on it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So this decision should come to the entrepreneur.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: He must either be wise enough to understand this, or he should surround himself with reasonable wisdom to give him this thought process.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: So you're also saying it has to do with a high degree of self-awareness, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also about understanding one's own competence because if you are not self-aware and if you are not competent, uh, it doesn't matter how much capital you have, it might most of the time end up going in flames, right?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there have been instances where uh people have raised a lot of money uh by doing something which is against their nature and then come under pressure in delivering it, and then lost out the control of what they try to create, and then seeing the same venture do well in the hands of somebody else.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, where was the fault line?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: The fault line was in how you set about going to accomplish what you wanted.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's all.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is really interesting because I read this book a very long time ago called The Road to Character by David Brooks.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there is one sentence, it's like a giant book with like you know, vignettes of a lot of famous people, but only one sentence in that book I think I carry with me to this day, which is his definition of the word humility.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And he says that you know, when most people think of the word humble or humility, they think of people who give their team their credit, who give everybody else credit, etc.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: But he says humility is accurate self-awareness.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, in a certain sense, the best founders are very, very humble in that sense because they know themselves, they know their capability, they know where they succeeded and where they failed, which allows them to be more intelligent with capital.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that assessment correct?
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's very true.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: You see who are the most successful entrepreneurs in our country, whether people who inherited family businesses like an Aziv Venji, who then created something out of it which is of such enormous size, or a Sri Rembu, Aranar Muti.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: You see, there are so many people, and you will see a running trait uh along many of these uh high achievers.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: Even you see people who have built uh social uh entrepreneurship uh ventures, um cooperatives.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: You see Korean, you see uh Ashantha, you see so many people who have built so many institutions.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: The institutional uh imperative is well understood by them, and when they understand that, there is a lot of their personality and character that contributes to that uh evolution, it's there for all to see.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Really a great uh insight, and I think it's so true, Sham.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Not many people really uh are so self-aware about what their strengths and weaknesses are, and therefore what they need to do.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a very it's a very nice way you put it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so one of the key questions then which comes up next, Sham, is that uh uh today is a day where almost in this period five people come together to start up a company, and they may be friends in college or they may be working somewhere else, they have an idea, they come together, and literally this discussion around how do you distribute a founder's equity?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, is a very touchy topic because you know, do I bring in the strength?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do you bring in the strength?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that is discussed discussed to death uh by Y Combinator to you know lots of uh you know great investors.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you really look at distribution of equity amongst founders and what are the best practices and principles that you believe we should follow?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you say five people, I am immediately going back to the Mahavartha and Middle of the Pandavas.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, it's a difficult question because I've seen one example.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: The natural tendency is to start with everybody being equal because it's a very easy decision to arrive at at the starting point, but that decision may not stand the test of time because over time you start realizing that a few people are more important to the organization, or a few people are not as important as others.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So then what happens is the motivation levels of those who are more important tends to be less than the others, or tends to be less than what it ought to be.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is like equally true of family businesses where there are multiple stakeholders, and my lesson comes from there because I have operated in that environment as well.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think that this is a very, very difficult area.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: There are no simple solutions to this because when you start a venture, I think that to have a fair conversation about who is going to bring what and who should be given a better position in the venture is not easy, but we need to find that answer.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: Basically, I think that setting it correctly in the beginning is very, very critical.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: Taking this idealist approach of all five are equal is not going to work.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think that you should have a separate pool from which the contributors will be rewarded subsequently, and there should be well-established metrics of how these rewards are going to happen instead of simply taking all five are equal approach.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, I think that we should not make it too lopsided either.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that having an approach to evaluate this fairly and get it accepted by everybody is critical to organizations where there are multiple founders.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that you should have some mechanism to do this with people who are impartial and objective to help you along the way to you know carry this decision fairly and to take it forward.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: You should not get stuck after making a decision.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's very, very critical.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: We should have a mechanism to not only start the process but also to run the process of stake distribution among founders until it reaches a steady state, and to ensure that you reach that steady state with a feeling of fairness, that is very important.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Only then they'll stay together, otherwise, we are going to see things dissipate or move away from each other.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sham, I'm just going through your Twitter profile, and I think it's a cornucopy of a lot of exciting and interesting things.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think you put something out on the 1st of May about uh Warren Buffett, and uh you were basically saying to experience his style and learn from an investor, few ground rules apply.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Don't clone blindly, don't quote him obsessively, avoid comparison, uh, never virtue sell yourself using him.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Understand him, but don't oversimplify him.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Genuine learning and respect are behavioral.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's A lot of interesting things going on in that tweet, but can you talk about the origins of where that uh idea even came from and why you actually put that out?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: See, for anybody who is coming into the investment world, it's a natural fascination to see people who have done seven decades and are still able to maintain relevance.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think too many people have done it.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly not in India.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Strangely, the longevity of our investors is not as good as the longevity of the great American investors.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe hopefully some people are going to live long and do that seven decade thing.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: When you have such a long track record and history and a body of work, annulation is bound to follow.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody would want to be like you.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: But like in entrepreneurship in the investment world, also, no one person can be like the other.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: For example, Warren Buffett is not like his mentor Benjamin Graham.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: And despite him having numerous disciples and numerous people who claim to be Akalaivas.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: There is a problem in how we are going to learn from him and how we are going to learn with him.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: E.k.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Laiva never used Dronacharya to improve his image in society or to get some other objective.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: For him, learning was the primary pursuit.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: In investing, also, I think that we must learn a little bit from Ekaleva.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: How much are we going to be able to do it in our work?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what we do should be more from the learning than just doing what he has done.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: That is not learning.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying have heroes but don't mimic them blindly.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because individuality is what is going to keep you going because your heroes will be gone one day.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: After that, what are you going to do?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you know, there are Indian gurus who live.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: As long as they live, the place they live is buzzing.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: People go and visit them every year or whatever function.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: There are grand occasions, there are lacks of people who visit.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: After that, how many people are able to carry forward what they have learned from the guru in the absence of the guru?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, if at all you are deeply reverential of Guru, I think that your engagement with that person itself should transcend tokenism.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: It should have more meaningful impact in what you are taking away, what you are carrying into yourself, and whatever little you are practicing.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see people who are continuously posturing practicing enough.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that difference is very, very critical for everybody.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's very critical.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's that says more about how you are treating a guru first, somebody whom you claim as your teacher.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that's that's totally true.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: And very it resonates with me because you see a lot of these people who wake up in the morning and put out like a Warren Buffett quote in the morning, and I'm like, why are you all doing this on Twitter?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think recognition comes to people who position their own self in society.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: When you have less to position about yourself, it's a very easy option to position yourself as somebody's associate.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's very easy, not even associate.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's true, and this is a great segue to the second week, which I wanted to talk to you about, which is the more you sensationalize your investing, the more ordinary your investing would look.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Something simply won't happen by trying too hard.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's crystal clear, very, very concise and very precise and accurate, but some context will provide greater clarity to our listeners.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: So can we just talk a little bit about that one?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do investors like us uh bring to the table first?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: We bring capital, we bring conviction, but we don't bring delivery.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Delivery is outside our domain of competence.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Investors deliver nothing, the delivery is in the hands of the people who are entrepreneurial, they don't hide how much they can deliver.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: The best guys never overpromise.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: They always believe in promising modestly and delivering more than what they promised.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, as an investor, if I am going to give just my capital to a company and then go to town trying to virtue sell the company, then I have no control over what the company is going to deliver.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, what am I trying to sensationalize?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: I am trying to sensationalize my involvement in the company, and I am trying to make more people say become affected by that sensationalism and participate in it effectively without contributing to the success of the business, I am overpromising on behalf of the company.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I mean in that quote.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have zero competence to do it actually, and it's clearly sitting in the middle of being irresponsible.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's totally irresponsible.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, what happens is if something goes right, because the entrepreneur is a super guy who has delivered even beyond what I thought he would deliver, then I take credit.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: But if he doesn't deliver, right, then the blame becomes mine.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now, in this kind of a situation, why would a sensible sane guy wager such sensationalism on behalf of something which he has limited control over and in which he is not a contributing person at all?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: So, so so which uh you know which brings me to one of the famous quotes that uh uh I read about what you said.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh why popular trends scare you, right?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so why do why so this popular trends, why does it scare you?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And what does it do to investing?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: What does it do to entrepreneurs?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: What does it do to business ideas?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, what impact does it have on success and what impact does it have on failure?
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: See, when you viralize something, what are we trying to do?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: Virality is basically making everybody act in a particular way, acknowledge a particular thing and amplify that thing to bring in more people.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: In the investment world, this virality means you're bringing in more money into a place where that money should not be.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: What would eventually happen is when people realize that too much has happened, smart money will move out first, and all the late money, which for lack of better phrase I would call dumb money, will get sucked and lost.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a shredder.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: You are putting notes into a machine, thinking that it's an ATM and it will give you back money anytime.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: You put all the notes inside and you look up and then you realize that it's a paper shredder.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is what popular trends mostly turn out to be.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, virality, which has now got nicely conceptualized.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: See, actually, social media has helped you conceptualize something very clearly, but virality is basic is basically where you create a mania, whether it was tulip mania or whether it is Bitcoin today or it is some other thing related to recency, then it tends to be more powerful today than it was 20 years ago, and it will become even more powerful going forward.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Which means that if you are seeing a popular trend and if you are seeing it mature, you must be very scared.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like seeing a cyclone in the eye.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you see it on your monitor, you should still be scared.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: There could be a small section of people who catch the popular trend very early, they will be successful because they will leave before the party ends, they will leave before things get ugly.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: But remember that most people come late and stay on when things become too hot to handle.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: That is why popular trends tend to scare me because I have seen the popular trend kill lacks of investors financially, and tomorrow it may kill pros of investors because as more and more Indians become financially active and participative, then the popular trends are going to become even bigger and they'll probably cause more damage than in the past.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And just to follow up on that, uh, can you tie this with understanding your own circle of competence and also understanding what are some biases you need to avoid from making these bad decisions?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, if you were, like you said, there are there's an entire new generation of people who are going to come in and start investing and thinking about their money differently, right?
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But there are some time-tested ideas, some time-tested mental models that they will have to learn the hard way.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, they either know it before and they believe in it so deeply that they avoid making mistakes, or they make those mistakes and learn the hard way that I should only understand what is within my circle of competence, or I should not have any hindsight bias, I should not have any availability bias, or anything like that, right?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, so can you talk a little bit about what are some uh mental models that they need to consider uh when they are going and making these sort of uh investment decisions early on in their careers?
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, the first thing that an investor must be clear about is what is his own uh circle of competence, what is he really good at, what is his pain-bearing capacity?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's the second point.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: The third point is how much time does he have?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: A person who is uh let's say in his early 40s, who has to send his kids to study in two years, cannot take all his money and put it in the equity market today.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: He needs to keep that money away.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to see your circumstances what you are saving and investing for, what kind of risk appetite you have, what's the nature of your regular income?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it something you're going to have for the next 20 years, or you are a cricketer who's playing IPL and making crores or rupees?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or somebody in a similar location which has a shorter cycle but a very impactful cycle.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So understand yourself and based on your understanding of who you are, what are you good at?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: What is giving you your capital?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: How long will you be able to get that capital?
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: What are you using that capital for?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is that capital being purposed for?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: How much time do you have with the capital?
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: When do you need that money for your purposes?
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then you decide what is your investment path.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot see what somebody who doesn't need money at all is doing and try to emulate.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Most of India's super rich investors are in it like it's a sport.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, somebody who is running towards life goals and who has so much to do should not be blindly copying somebody who has no purpose.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, your model is something which is unique to you.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Your mentor model should form based on all these aspects.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's completely personality-centric, and even the risk you take must align with who you are.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of people who go in flights and then you know they have these, they jump and then another guy will open a parachute and he'll bring you down and land you.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Even to do that, you need personality.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know I don't have it.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: So just accept it and do something else.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: There are people who have this personality to do the jumping, but their life situation doesn't allow that.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, in the investment world also, understand your personality and do things.com.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: So uh this brings me to a very interesting uh concept that is happening now in India, which is when you really do these startups, young companies, there is a friends and families round, there is a crowdfunding round.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and uh is that not something that uh you know what you are telling uh is so relevant because uh you tend to get these kind of uh things saying that okay, you know, why don't you participate in a friends and families round?
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Why don't you participate in a crowdfunding model?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: When you actually don't have the right purpose and objective, uh you then tend to actually, you know, what is your pain bearing use, right?
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: So then suddenly you're shocked, and this just uh kind of affects you, and it pretty much also uh affects you when even when you are a promoter and entrepreneur not knowing what risks you are taking, right?
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a you must have seen these situations both as an angel investor, both as a uh you know portfolio manager.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: And is that not true?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: And uh is that not something which people should avoid?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: See, I think you have to understand the nature of the business very, very clearly before you get into something.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Businesses can run out of capital very fast, especially in the high-burn entrepreneurial era that we live in.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Cash can burn so fast, and the rate of replenishment is never going to match the rate of burn.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, middle class savers, people who are saving and investing for clear purposes, should avoid it.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: There is no doubt in that, and there should be investment vehicles that should be created for people to participate in them.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Today you have the AF as a model, but it clearly knows that somebody who has one throw is the base level participant.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think this dinner party conservation should lead to private equity investments or venture capital or family and friends.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: You should be behind your friend, but you should ask yourself whether you have this appetite, you should have the spine to take a loss, should have the stomach for a loss.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: I have always said this even to my friends that you know sometimes I may be out of depth with an investment.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Don't follow me because I may make a mistake and I may walk out of it.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: And every five-ten years there will be something which will happen like that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: However, hard you try, some things will go out of hand.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: Fear of missing out, which we call as FOMO, is very high when five people put the sixth fellow has to put his hand in.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas his situation would not allow that.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: He would have kept money for his daughter's college and he will take that and put it in private equity from which you can never get.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Samudra Mantan, you don't know when it will come out.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, but people put money there thinking that no, no, no, whenever I can't, I can dip and take the money.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work that way.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, on a parallel track, uh Sham, I want to ask you a very basic question, which I don't think is even taught in our schools.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Which is there are many things which are not taught in our schools, but from the tone of the conversation and the con and the types of uh ideas you are tackling, my question would be what is the difference between money and wealth?
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Money is something you need, it's something which is always demanding a purpose.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: You have to run your house, you may need to buy a car, you may need to educate your children, you may need to take care of your parents, you may need to buy a house.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when that money rises to a level at which all these needs are met, and you're still making more money than you needed or you imagined or you expected to, you are slowly entering the domain of the challenge before every purpose is that when the purpose is fulfilled, what do you do next?
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that money also has that challenge, and when it increases and it becomes wealth and more wealth, and then above what you expect it to generate, you need to keep on purposing it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: As long as money is just meeting purposes, which is the majority of our Indian households, they don't have a problem.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's only people for whom it becomes too much that this problem of finding purpose begins.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: I see a lot of super wealthy people think that they will purpose it later.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when you enter your 60s or 70s, you can't postpone it.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody, as I said, is not lucky enough to be Buffett or Munger to sit at 93 and 98 and still be you know having the luxury of time.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, this purposing should be constant in my opinion.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: Indians should constantly purpose well, whether it's for your children, whether it's for charity, whether it is for investment, whether it is for asset classes.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: Money, when it becomes wealth, tends to be handled in a much better way.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when it becomes more and more, that handling demonstrates the required maturity.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, it's going to be wealth again becoming money.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: That should not happen.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: Sham, the current uh trend is let me raise money for my business because money is available versus my business really needs money.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: We seem to be seeing more of the first trend.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: How does it affect businesses?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: And therefore, how should I look at it from enough cash in my bank versus what cash my business needs?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: How do you really balance this and what what mistakes are people making today?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think that when people raise money which they don't need, I have seen one universal trait, it tends to get squandered.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: The second point is that when you raise too much money at that point, you think that you are diluting less, but you are taking away the right to dilute in future.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you dilute at a valuation which is unreasonable, people will hesitate to again give you capital even when the valuation becomes more reason because they see that you have not handled the capital well.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a problem you are setting yourself up for.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very important that when you raise money, you raise money which you really need and money on which you are reasonably sure of delivery.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you have the option of raising some more money.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can raise a little more than what you require if you want a slightly longer runway.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: The risk of capital going into unproductive areas and leading to destruction of capital is very high, and this has happened time and again.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I have seen companies which are in the listed space raise money when capital is easily available, whether it was the 94 GDR rush or even the current VC-driven raising of huge sums of money by the unicorns.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: I am seeing that after raising so many millions of dollars within 12 months, the company is again coming and trying to raise venture debt because it is not able to raise equity at the same valuation it has raised last time, and it's still hungry for capital because that capital has been misallocated.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: We are seeing that happen in multiple Indian unicorns today.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is a road to destruction clearly.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: How you raise money is not just about that one race, it sets the context and trajectory for the future of your entrepreneurial journey itself and the future of your enterprise.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you raise money, remember that you should always maintain that optionality to raise another round and you should be reasonable enough to be accepted by investors at that time.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you do unreasonable things, you are not going to get acceptability.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, people may actually not reach out to you at all.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, in the sense, you will isolate.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yourself and that is a risk which one should never run in this entrepreneurial life.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Things may go right, wrong, but people should be again willing to come and give you their trust and capital.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Don't act as if this is the last time.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's never going to be a now or never situation.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think it is now or never, you are going to set yourself up for a never-again situation.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know the last two years have been very lucky for a lot of people, but from here I think that we are again reverting to mean or moving in that direction.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: So one should be very, very careful.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Just as a follow-up to that, Sham, one question I have is uh founders come in with a certain understanding or a lack of understanding of capital and finance when they run their first company, and they come in with a completely different set of ideas, beliefs, processes, and protocols that they really want instituted the second time they go and build this build their venture.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, can you talk a little bit about what kind of a transition that a founder makes from being a complete novice in terms of understanding the financial side of their business?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when they become an experienced operator and they become very, very savvy, what is that journey like?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's the same as an investor.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like you make an early investment, your early investments teach you what not to do.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: There are clear takeaways and lessons.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: So an entrepreneur has far more lessons than an investor actually, because he would have made mistakes on multiple fronts and he would have faced situations which he never anticipated.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: He will take all these learnings into his next innings, and it's quite natural that he will not go to places where he will meet the same problems again.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like an investor matures with every cycle of investing, an entrepreneur will mature with every entrepreneurial innings.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's good, it's healthy.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, every entrepreneur who has sold a business or done something and moved on to the next thing, whether the first thing was successful or failure, it doesn't matter.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: When you move to the next one, I think it's very important to take your learnings into that initiative.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have seen entrepreneurs who have sold SMEs or stop doing a business and move on to another business in which they have done better in the next business, and then to the third business.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: None of the businesses failed.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: They feel that one business has run its shelf life, and from now it's going to become commoditized.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll move on from this to another innings.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do that well till it becomes commoditized, and then move to the third one, right?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: And when you see the third one, if you see how they manage their business process, how they manage capital, how they managed surpluses in the business, how they managed investments in the business for growth, you can see a remarkable transition.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Even when you converse with the entrepreneur, you will clearly see how they learn from every venture and how they made it to a better place.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: And whether the venture failed or succeeded, the learnings kept them going to a better place all the time.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's very, very critical.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's the true blue spirit of entrepreneurship.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: To me, every time you came across like a almost like a contra fund investor, you really looked at the contra trends that happened in the market.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: That seemed to be the way you looked at it.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so you actually made a statement staying rich with gains is not easy.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: So especially when you know an entrepreneur exits with his capital, he gets a lot of money.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: Managing the gains is not easy.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: So typically, what mistakes happen and what should they avoid?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, when somebody sells a business, then the whole world knows what's the kind of wealth they come into.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: As long as you're running the business, no one is going to know.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they will do their own math, but you know, selling has a certain clear signal to people that not only the money is there, it's available with this person.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Generally, when people come in to a lot of money, there are going to be a number of opportunities that are going to chase them, and not all of these opportunities suit them, they are not meant for them because opportunities always chase capital.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when somebody comes into a lot of money, opportunities are going to chase you.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have noticed that very successful entrepreneurs, after selling their company, have taken that money and become very ordinary investors in other companies.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: They have not had the skill to make investments successful.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Within 5 to 10 years, they realized that money was not actually a lot and they had not purposed it correctly.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, again and again, this purposing of wealth is very, very critical, especially when you are going to take out your lifetime wealth from an enterprise.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's the real test.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: Making that wealth in an enterprise is actually easier part because you are doing the same thing with focus, and it's it's actually a very narrow ecosystem that you have made into a success.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: But in the broad wide world, I think that the challenge is suddenly spiked.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And entrepreneurs who sell businesses have always struggled under these challenges.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: Even let's say you made 30-40% in your startup XIRR and you sold is not a license for you to get the same result out of other entrepreneurs, it's not a birthright.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, so therefore, how would you suggest they allocate this whatever uh you know pie that they get?
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, when you say you purpose the wealth, uh, you would say allocate a certain pie for investments, certain pie for uh managing their uh life needs.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's important for them to think through this, right?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing is how you want to live the rest of your life, you provide for that because you have earned it.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, after so many years of hard work, you have created value in a business and you have monetized it, money is with you, so you decide how you want to live.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: Your primary duty is to that quality of life which you want to give yourself.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: The next thing is what is it that you want to give those who are going to be carrying your legacy forward, your children, your family, and how are you going to give it to them in a way in which they are going to be able to carry it forward?
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that you have to think.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: If they don't handle it well, that problem is going to come back to you in your lifetime.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: The third part is something where you are going to keep yourself busy.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, some amount of capital is allocated to keeping yourself busy.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen some people get busy with philanthropy, so they allocate a section of capital for that, and that keeps them busy, so they don't get back into business.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is a very successful lot of people.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_00: Most of the people are created impact.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: But where people want to get back into business and you know help other entrepreneurs, you need to do it with more discipline than what you brought to your entrepreneurial needs, and you should be finite about how much capital you are going to allocate towards that.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant, brilliant, Sham.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Sham, I'm going to uh slightly move into some of uh your personal life skills that we read about, and uh in your early stages of your working life where you went and built a company, you said you are an independent thinker with values and beliefs.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_02: What are the learnings that you got out of that?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: There are two areas from where I learned.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: The first is I come from a business family, which comes from the legacy era of licensing and stuff like that.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the thought process of the previous generations are oriented towards an era of scarcity and how you thrive in that era.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then I started working alongside people who wanted to get rich quick in the investment world.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: I have seen that other side also.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: In both cases, I felt that the compromises which you need to do did not suit my personality.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was convinced by somebody who mentored me without actually telling me that if you do what suits you, you are comfortable doing that for a very long time, and you will be able to find some niches where you are very good in delivering success.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the whole approach was okay, I am not going to get into places where people are trying to run too fast, or people are trying to do too many things to get their needs fulfilled.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: There should not be a need to do things which don't agree with you.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: So if I have to avoid all this and do something, then I should be independent and I should do uh something which I enjoy doing and I find it agreeable and it delivers to me.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: That is how this whole thing of doing something on my own happened.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I would have always been clipped on to some other person or some other company or entity or stuff like that.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_00: And after I had done it for a reasonable period of time for myself, I got offers from people whom I know very well socially to do it for them.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: And after I had done it reasonably well for a long time, then I thought that what is the purpose of whatever I have learned if I cannot institutionalize it, and that is how this whole transition has happened.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's no grand strategy, it's just doing what suits you, and as you get more opportunity, trying to do even more of it.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just organic and it has grown over time because there are no pressures and there are no conditions, and you operate in a way in which you are able to comfortably do it.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: Great uh great Sham.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: Coming to a couple of uh laser-focused questions that we thought uh we would get some interesting insights from you.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: So the first question, Sham, is what does the word successful mean to you?
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's uh you know, I don't have any definitions of success in my mind.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: As long as uh you are doing what you enjoy doing and you can do it for a very long time to come, some meaningful contribution to others also, then you're using your success responsibly.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: Beyond that, I don't have any grand definitions.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love that answer, Sean.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Really that's a great answer.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: What are some of the books that have influenced you the most over the course of your life and career?
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: I really liked uh the books written by Philip Fisher, the books written by Max Gunther, one of it is Zurich Axioms.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: I've liked uh poor Charlie's almanac, which has all the wisdom of uh Charlie Munger.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Mostly I take little little things from where I read, and uh that stays in my mind for a long time.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't take any one book or person into a place where I eulogize it, but even a newspaper column by a particular op-ed writer, I really like something, I carry it for a long time.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Sean, what are the three, four things that you would uh recommend to an 18-year-old who's studying at a university today?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Ask yourself if you are entrepreneurial.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you are, don't miss out on being entrepreneurial.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first thing.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you are not the entrepreneurial kind, do what suits your temperament.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: Choose and align yourself correctly and early so that you don't spend too much time in discovering who you are and by virtue of that miss out on opportunities.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the time available for this is not very high, and you should be very, very careful about your time.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Sham, my next question is uh if you could invite four guests for a dream dinner, who would they be and why?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't thought about it.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I will probably think of uh the four people who have made a deep impact on me in my life, and hopefully, if they are around, I will call them.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: They would be more like my teachers or people who have uh taught me a lot of things.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would definitely want the dinner with people who have shaped me up at a time when I was a nobody.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: Sha, what's the best piece of advice uh anyone has ever given you?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: The best uh advice I would say, because um the stock market is a place of uh very speedy gratification.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: The best piece of advice was my mentor telling me that uh you stay away from people who want to run too fast.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about how others are pacing their work, whether it's business or investing.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you set your own pace.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the best advice which I got uh when I did not even know what I was going to do.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because after you finish your studies, there is this phase of uncertainty.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: So at that point, I think that uh we were able to set that correctly.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sham, what is something that you believe in that nobody else agrees with you on?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: You don't need to be like another person, everybody wants to be somebody else, and if you're never going to become that person, but most people tend to always want to be like somebody else.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_01: As a as a sidebar, I would say that is probably the best answer I've heard to this question.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because anybody who knows the origins of this question knows this is the correct answer to that question.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's all I would say.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, Sham, my final question to you is uh if you were to think of a guest uh who you would like to see in this podcast, uh who would you who would that be and uh why?
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh I would like you to interview the chairman of Amul, Mr.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sodi, who is now creating a next generation social venture which is going to take India to the next level.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks a lot, Sham.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh this was uh one of the most uh I would say authentic interviews that uh we've had and uh some of the points you made were in your face kind of advice and in your in your face kind of input.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was extremely interesting, impactful, and uh thanks for your time and we thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_02: My pleasure, John's for listening to this episode.
• 57:55
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• 58:03
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• 58:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening and stay safe.