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Inside the GM Mindset · Rosters to Rings Podcast

0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Rosters to Rings podcasts, where general managers
0:08
Speaker 1: from all major sports, including Major League Baseball, the NBA,
0:12
Speaker 1: and the NFL, will take you behind the curtain and
0:15
Speaker 1: share their unfiltered experiences breaking down all of the major
0:19
Speaker 1: sports events today and in the past. I am fad Levine.
0:23
Speaker 1: I've spent twenty five years working in Major League Baseball
0:26
Speaker 1: for the Los Angeles Dodgers, the Colorado Rockies, the Texas Rangers,
0:30
Speaker 1: and the Minnesota Twins. In my career, I've negotiated over
0:33
Speaker 1: a billion dollars worth of contracts. I've participated in two
0:38
Speaker 1: three and four team trades. I worked for a team
0:41
Speaker 1: that went bankrupt at beginning of the season, was sold
0:44
Speaker 1: in the middle of the season, and ultimately went to
0:46
Speaker 1: the World Series in that very same season. I've tasted
0:48
Speaker 1: the euphoria, champagne celebrations, and the utter bitterness of defeat.
0:54
Speaker 1: I've also met some exceptional people along the way and
0:57
Speaker 1: have had some incredible experiences and on Roster Rings, I
1:00
Speaker 1: want to share as many of those with you as
1:02
Speaker 1: I can. Throughout my career, I had opportunities to speak
1:06
Speaker 1: to the media to fans alike. In my opinion, general
1:09
Speaker 1: managers share about forty percent of what they know with
1:11
Speaker 1: the fans based upon competitive reasons, league rules, mandates from
1:16
Speaker 1: ownership in just extreme discretion. Well, here at rosterst Rings,
1:20
Speaker 1: we aspire to share about as much of the other
1:22
Speaker 1: sixty percent as we possibly can with you, the listeners.
1:27
Speaker 1: Is my honor to introduce Ryan McDonough, who will be
1:29
Speaker 1: my co host for the inaugural season of Rosters to Rings.
1:33
Speaker 1: Ryan spent sixteen years working in the NBA, getting his
1:36
Speaker 1: start in the video room with the Boston Celtics. He
1:39
Speaker 1: attributes so much of his career success to the amazing
1:42
Speaker 1: mentorship from ownership, the front office, and coaches alike. With
1:46
Speaker 1: the Celtics, Ryan serves as a director of scouting, the
1:49
Speaker 1: director of player personnel, and ultimately the assistant general manager.
1:54
Speaker 1: While with the Celtics, they ended up going to the
1:56
Speaker 1: Conference Championship three times between two thousand and eight and
1:59
Speaker 1: two twenty twelve, winning the Conference championship in two thousand
2:03
Speaker 1: and eight and twenty ten, and ultimately the NBA Championship
2:06
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight. After about ten years with
2:09
Speaker 1: the Boston Celtics, Ryan was hired by the Phoenix Suns
2:12
Speaker 1: to serve as their general manager at the age of
2:14
Speaker 1: thirty three years old. He served in that role for
2:17
Speaker 1: five and a half seasons. Please welcome Ryan McDonough, co
2:21
Speaker 1: host of Rosters to Rings.
2:24
Speaker 2: Thanks for the glowing introduction that it's great to be
2:26
Speaker 2: on with you and I think we have some shared experiences.
2:30
Speaker 2: You and I know that general managers are exposed to
2:32
Speaker 2: the best athletes in the world. We're also around a
2:35
Speaker 2: lot of characters in this industry. There's extreme pressure on
2:38
Speaker 2: every aspect of it, from ownership to the front office, coaches,
2:42
Speaker 2: and especially with the players. And then there's complex and
2:45
Speaker 2: challenging decision making and incredible experiences that we have to
2:49
Speaker 2: share with you our listeners. So in Roster to Rings,
2:51
Speaker 2: we're excited that we'll not only take fans behind the
2:54
Speaker 2: scenes for deep dives into how decisions are made, will
2:57
Speaker 2: also explain the how and why those decisions are made,
3:00
Speaker 2: the strategic nature of negotiations, roster construction, and the true
3:04
Speaker 2: depth of relationships between executives, coaches, players, agents, media and fans,
3:11
Speaker 2: the people behind the scenes and the characters that make
3:13
Speaker 2: up the game, and all the other elements that make
3:15
Speaker 2: sports so incredibly impactful in our lives. Let me give
3:20
Speaker 2: you a little extra color on Thad. He spent the
3:22
Speaker 2: last twenty five years working in a variety of leadership
3:25
Speaker 2: roles for the Rockies, the Rangers, and the Twins. The
3:29
Speaker 2: last nineteen years he was either an assistant general manager
3:32
Speaker 2: or a general manager. That has been blessed, He'll tell
3:35
Speaker 2: you he has been blessed to be surrounded by so
3:37
Speaker 2: many exceptional mentors. And he worked with twelve people who
3:40
Speaker 2: became general managers, ten who became major league managers, and
3:44
Speaker 2: other countless elite leaders. So, Sad, I'm sure working with
3:47
Speaker 2: me is not one of the career highlights for you,
3:49
Speaker 2: but we do the show regardless, but take our listeners
3:54
Speaker 2: a little bit into your past and some of the
3:56
Speaker 2: great people you've worked with.
3:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think this will be a theme
3:59
Speaker 1: of this show, which is just gratitude. You know, Ryan
4:02
Speaker 1: and I have been shaped to have great success in
4:05
Speaker 1: our careers, but it has so much to do with
4:07
Speaker 1: the people who've invested their genuine time and efforts into
4:11
Speaker 1: shaping us and growing us and giving opportunities to develop.
4:14
Speaker 1: And you know, I reflect on there just so many
4:16
Speaker 1: people would love to have these jobs, and you know why,
4:20
Speaker 1: did Ryan and I get these opportunities, But not only
4:22
Speaker 1: when we did get the opportunity did we get the
4:24
Speaker 1: opportunities to excel. And I just think I trace it
4:27
Speaker 1: back to the people I got a chance to work with.
4:29
Speaker 1: You know, when I started with the Colorado Rockies, you know,
4:32
Speaker 1: kind of unbeknownst to me, the general manager at the
4:33
Speaker 1: time was Dan Odoud and one of his hiring philosophies,
4:37
Speaker 1: which it was passed down from John Hard, who is
4:39
Speaker 1: a borderline Hall of Fame general manager, was always hire
4:42
Speaker 1: people who are extremely intelligent and capable, and then hold
4:45
Speaker 1: them accountable to succeed at levels they never thought they
4:48
Speaker 1: could succeed. And so Dan, you know, I'm not sure
4:51
Speaker 1: if this was ultimately the plan, but seven people who
4:54
Speaker 1: work there of the fifteen were working the front office
4:56
Speaker 1: at the time, which kind of dates us because now
4:58
Speaker 1: these front offices are so much bigger. But seven of
5:01
Speaker 1: us went on to be general managers of Major League
5:03
Speaker 1: Baseball teams, and an eighth guy went on to be
5:05
Speaker 1: a manager of a big League team. And so that
5:08
Speaker 1: was my proving ground. That was where I got my start.
5:10
Speaker 1: I was the most junior person there of that group,
5:13
Speaker 1: and I got to learn from each and every one
5:15
Speaker 1: of those guys and from Dan. So it was just
5:18
Speaker 1: such a blessing to be in those environments as a
5:22
Speaker 1: youngster in the game, to be open minded, to grow
5:25
Speaker 1: and learn, and then being just taken along for the ride.
5:29
Speaker 1: And then here we are and now, you know, I
5:31
Speaker 1: think Ryan and I will reflect on the chances to
5:33
Speaker 1: give back in our careers, but more than anything, that's
5:36
Speaker 1: part of the format of this podcast is for us
5:38
Speaker 1: to give back and to share our experiences with people
5:41
Speaker 1: who not only do work in the game, or maybe
5:43
Speaker 1: who do aspire to work in the game. So, you know, Ryan,
5:46
Speaker 1: take us into a few of the topics that you
5:48
Speaker 1: think we may hit on as as we reveal and
5:51
Speaker 1: get behind this curtain and show the fans some of
5:54
Speaker 1: those glorious experiences we've had throughout our careers.
5:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the main thing that our listeners will
5:59
Speaker 2: come from this with, at least I hope it is
6:01
Speaker 2: he is the roller coaster that it is to work
6:04
Speaker 2: for a pro team, whether it's Major League Baseball, NBA
6:08
Speaker 2: or otherwise, And to give our listeners a feel for that,
6:11
Speaker 2: I'll take you back to the two thousand and seven
6:13
Speaker 2: NBA offseason. I had been in the Boston Celtics for
6:16
Speaker 2: four years as a much younger man, and we were
6:19
Speaker 2: coming off not only the longest losing streak in the
6:22
Speaker 2: illustrious history of the Boston Celtics. We lost eighteen games
6:25
Speaker 2: in a row, but we finished that season at twenty
6:27
Speaker 2: four and fifty eight, which was the second worst year
6:31
Speaker 2: in the history of the Celtics. And so after that
6:33
Speaker 2: brutal season, Thad We're slotted second in the two thousand
6:36
Speaker 2: and seven draft lottery, had high hopes. Keep in mind
6:39
Speaker 2: that was to Greg godin Kevin Durant draft, but when
6:41
Speaker 2: the ping pong balls were drawn, we dropped all the
6:43
Speaker 2: way down to fifth, which was the lowest possible pick
6:47
Speaker 2: slot we could have in that you know, I want
6:49
Speaker 2: to tell you that, you know, eighteen years later, it
6:52
Speaker 2: was you know, we saw this coming, or we you know,
6:55
Speaker 2: look back in hindsight and were calm and collected. Really,
6:58
Speaker 2: I think we're all warnering how long are we going
6:59
Speaker 2: to be a Loyd. We're going to get fired pretty soon,
7:02
Speaker 2: because you know, coming off a disaster season and then
7:04
Speaker 2: having a disastrous lottery result, those are the tenuous moments.
7:07
Speaker 2: I think that you and I can can share with
7:09
Speaker 2: the listeners just how fragile it is sometimes working for
7:12
Speaker 2: a professional team.
7:14
Speaker 1: Ran, do you remember, like where you were when you
7:16
Speaker 1: saw you guys dropped from two to five and what
7:19
Speaker 1: was that ament? So what role were you in at
7:22
Speaker 1: that time and what was your feeling and who were
7:24
Speaker 1: you surrounded by and what was their reaction in that moment?
7:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember it vividly that in two thousand and
7:31
Speaker 2: seven on lottery night, we all watched it at the
7:33
Speaker 2: Boston Celtics practice facility in Waltham, Massachusetts. Danny Ainge was
7:38
Speaker 2: our general manager, Doc Rivers was our head coach, and
7:41
Speaker 2: ESPN brought in cameras to watch us and watch our
7:44
Speaker 2: reaction and we were told that they were not going
7:47
Speaker 2: to use the reaction shots unless we won the lottery
7:49
Speaker 2: or got the second pick, which was the expectation. Well
7:52
Speaker 2: you probably guess what happened next. The headline on Sports
7:55
Speaker 2: Center that night is, you know, disaster and Boston Celtics
7:58
Speaker 2: fall to five. And you know, I one of Danny
8:01
Speaker 2: Andrew Doc Rivers, I can't remember which one took his
8:04
Speaker 2: hat off and kind of slammed it down. The other
8:05
Speaker 2: was running his Uh you know, his hand through his
8:07
Speaker 2: hair saying oh man like and so so that was
8:10
Speaker 2: that was tenuous. And again that was Greg Odin one,
8:14
Speaker 2: Kevin Durant two. We were five. But but luckily that
8:18
Speaker 2: and then this tould be a key I think for
8:19
Speaker 2: us throughout the show thanks to some good moves. I mean,
8:23
Speaker 2: we drew what we thought was a bad draw, a
8:25
Speaker 2: short straw, so to speak. But thanks to some brilliant
8:28
Speaker 2: moves by Danny aing RGM that offseason, instead of picking five,
8:32
Speaker 2: which was Jeff Green, we ended up doing a deal
8:34
Speaker 2: on Draft night with the Seattle SuperSonics. We were able
8:37
Speaker 2: to bring in Ray Allen to Boston to play alongside
8:39
Speaker 2: Paul Pierce. And then later that summer we were able
8:42
Speaker 2: to hold enough assets out of that deal to then
8:45
Speaker 2: go get Kevin Garnett from the Minnesota Timberwolves to add
8:47
Speaker 2: to our roster. So we'd had Paul Pierce, we Hadrajian Rondo,
8:51
Speaker 2: who was entering his second year point guard. We added
8:53
Speaker 2: two other Hall of famers, and that we weren't sure
8:56
Speaker 2: how it was going to work, to be honest with
8:57
Speaker 2: you, you know, and we're sitting there in training camps and
9:00
Speaker 2: I think we're going to be pretty good. Well, the
9:02
Speaker 2: team started twenty nine and three, one of the best
9:04
Speaker 2: starts in NBA history. We went on to win sixty
9:07
Speaker 2: six games that year. That forty two win season to
9:10
Speaker 2: season improvement is still the largest in NBA history by
9:14
Speaker 2: a pretty significant margin. So, you know, a few months
9:18
Speaker 2: after that we won the championship. Not only do we
9:20
Speaker 2: win in two thousand and eight, we beat the Lakers,
9:22
Speaker 2: you know, the story rivals of the Boston Celtics, in
9:25
Speaker 2: a game six beat down. So that was neat. That's
9:29
Speaker 2: what I think you and I will be able to
9:30
Speaker 2: share with our listeners, the highs and lows. Unfortunately, you
9:34
Speaker 2: and I have examples on the other end. Two when
9:37
Speaker 2: you're in the finals, you think you're going to win
9:40
Speaker 2: the championship, you're right there. But this job more than
9:43
Speaker 2: anything that and being in pro sports, I think you
9:45
Speaker 2: and I both agree. My experiences have made me realize
9:49
Speaker 2: and be fortunate enough to never have a real job,
9:51
Speaker 2: and that's some of what we want to take our
9:53
Speaker 2: listeners inside too. Yet you know how you and I
9:55
Speaker 2: came up. We'll have a number of guests on who
9:58
Speaker 2: will talk about their pass and the different roles they've
10:00
Speaker 2: had in pro sports as well. And for me, as
10:02
Speaker 2: I look back, you know, I've been around a number
10:05
Speaker 2: of fascinating people. I've been paid to travel all over
10:08
Speaker 2: the country and across the world scouting players. And now
10:11
Speaker 2: as I started in my early twenties, I'm in my
10:14
Speaker 2: mid forties. My good fortune continuesta because instead of getting
10:17
Speaker 2: a real job, I can come do this podcast with
10:19
Speaker 2: you and you know, maybe maybe make a few bucks
10:22
Speaker 2: on the side, but more importantly bring our listeners behind
10:24
Speaker 2: the curtain in into a front office.
10:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, a wonderful breakdown, Ryan, and I got to be honest, like,
10:30
Speaker 1: I've got like fifteen questions myself. I can only imagine
10:32
Speaker 1: what the listeners are thinking when they hear that. I'm
10:35
Speaker 1: going to hit you with a few and then I'm
10:36
Speaker 1: going to save some of it for because we should
10:39
Speaker 1: do a full episode on that whole turnaround you guys had,
10:42
Speaker 1: that draft, you guys had. But one of the questions
10:44
Speaker 1: that hits me in the top is that you mentioned Odin,
10:46
Speaker 1: you mentioned Durant. As you guys are sitting there, You're
10:49
Speaker 1: I'm sure contemplating, Okay, who would we select it too?
10:52
Speaker 1: And maybe the answer is just whoever of that two fail.
10:55
Speaker 1: To you, you're not contemplating selecting five. Ultimately, as you
11:00
Speaker 1: and Stanny aged, we've some magic. After the ping pong
11:03
Speaker 1: ball comes up and you guys are five, I think,
11:06
Speaker 1: to me, that really illuminates the fact that you know,
11:10
Speaker 1: in sports, you always do have a plan A, but
11:13
Speaker 1: tomorrow's plan A is today's plan B. And I think
11:16
Speaker 1: the people I've worked with who've had the most success,
11:19
Speaker 1: resounding success, they always are thinking three D chess. You know,
11:22
Speaker 1: it's always thinking about, Okay, what's Plan A, Plan B,
11:26
Speaker 1: Plan C. Like you never can just have one plan,
11:29
Speaker 1: and then when that plan gets foiled, you you get derailed.
11:32
Speaker 1: Like those are the people who unfortunately have sustained failure
11:35
Speaker 1: in the game, because the game doesn't allow for you
11:38
Speaker 1: just to have one path to success. You have to
11:42
Speaker 1: you have to be able to adjust. And as crushing
11:45
Speaker 1: as I'm sure that moment was, where you guys probably
11:47
Speaker 1: hadn't even contemplated who on earth would we select five,
11:50
Speaker 1: that's not something you had to consider. You now, all
11:53
Speaker 1: of a sudden, are thrust into a situation where you
11:56
Speaker 1: know you mentioned it. The headline's written, the devastation and being,
12:00
Speaker 1: and now all of a sudden you have to pick
12:01
Speaker 1: up the pieces. And not only did you pick up
12:03
Speaker 1: the pieces, but you go and acquire two guys who
12:06
Speaker 1: are you know, top fifty players of all time, they're
12:09
Speaker 1: Hall of famers, they're in their prime, and they take
12:12
Speaker 1: you to a championship. Do you have a sense of
12:15
Speaker 1: if you had dropped to three, if you had dropped
12:17
Speaker 1: to four, if you had stayed a two, does Danny
12:19
Speaker 1: make those trades or do you guys stand pat and
12:22
Speaker 1: make the most of that draft? And have you ever
12:25
Speaker 1: wondered what would be the trajectory of the franchise if
12:27
Speaker 1: you had just stayed put and taken Jeff Green, or
12:30
Speaker 1: if you'd taken whomever it was the right guy at
12:32
Speaker 1: three or four?
12:33
Speaker 2: There one of the debates internally that was Greg Oden
12:38
Speaker 2: versus Kevin Durant for sure, especially if we got the
12:41
Speaker 2: number one pick, because if we got the number two pick,
12:44
Speaker 2: it was more likely, I think to b Durant because
12:46
Speaker 2: we projected that Odin was going to go number one.
12:49
Speaker 2: And you know, one of the challenges when you're on
12:51
Speaker 2: the team side that is, you know there are medical
12:53
Speaker 2: situations that come up to that you can't go out
12:56
Speaker 2: and say well, we have concerns about this player. Know,
13:00
Speaker 2: you could get in a lot of trouble not only
13:01
Speaker 2: with the player, his agent, with the league office. You
13:05
Speaker 2: could get sued for violating hippo laws and things like that,
13:08
Speaker 2: so you do have to be careful. But yeah, all
13:10
Speaker 2: of that factored into the equation. And we went through
13:13
Speaker 2: that process for the fifth pick, because that trade with
13:17
Speaker 2: the Seattle SuperSonics in which we brought back Ray Allen
13:20
Speaker 2: from Seattle to Boston was not consummated until draft, if
13:23
Speaker 2: I remember correctly, right before the draft started. So we
13:26
Speaker 2: went through the entire process. Yeah, we looked at just
13:29
Speaker 2: off the top of my head, Al Horford, Corey Brewer,
13:33
Speaker 2: Jeff Greeny, giondling On, a seven foot Chinese guy who
13:37
Speaker 2: was extremely skilled. They used to call him Chairman Yee
13:39
Speaker 2: because he worked out great against a chair But we
13:41
Speaker 2: didn't know if he could play against any other guys.
13:44
Speaker 2: So we went through that process and it's amazing, you know,
13:48
Speaker 2: just how that that one off season really sad swung
13:51
Speaker 2: the careers for so many of us, myself included. You know,
13:55
Speaker 2: Doc Rivers is now one of the winning ast coaches
13:57
Speaker 2: in the history of the NBA. Danny Ainge is my opinion,
14:00
Speaker 2: the best executive in the NBA last couple of decades,
14:03
Speaker 2: and then three Hall of famers Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett,
14:06
Speaker 2: Ray Allen Rajion Rondo may be a fourth. And then
14:09
Speaker 2: a number of guys on those staffs went on to
14:12
Speaker 2: get general manager jobs or head coaching jobs somewhere else,
14:16
Speaker 2: you know. In addition myself, we had Tom Thibodeau was
14:18
Speaker 2: our defensive coordinator who's currently leading the New York Knicks
14:21
Speaker 2: in the Conference finals. Lawrence Frank wanted to be not
14:24
Speaker 2: only the head coach of the Detroit Pistons, but is
14:26
Speaker 2: now doing a great job running the LA Clippers as
14:29
Speaker 2: their president of basketball Operations. So I think that's one
14:32
Speaker 2: of the other interesting things that we'll share with our
14:34
Speaker 2: listeners and bring them behind the curtain on, is how
14:37
Speaker 2: many of us are connected you and Major League Baseball,
14:40
Speaker 2: me and NBA and sometimes even across sports given our relationships.
14:44
Speaker 2: But those connections, those relationships and kind of the origin stories,
14:48
Speaker 2: you know, where we started and as you know that
14:51
Speaker 2: for all of us, it's never a straight line, but yeah,
14:53
Speaker 2: to take us behind, you know, kind of some of
14:55
Speaker 2: year background we've talked a lot about the Celtics, you know,
14:58
Speaker 2: I know, you know, Rockies, Rangers and Twins, especially with
15:01
Speaker 2: the Rangers. You guys were close. What are some of
15:03
Speaker 2: the things that you want to share with our listeners
15:05
Speaker 2: just about you know, the times you want and the
15:07
Speaker 2: times you were right there and it slipped away.
15:09
Speaker 1: You know, Ryan just talked about one of the best
15:11
Speaker 1: turnarounds in NBA history. Chance to go from that two
15:14
Speaker 1: thousand and seven season, which was a little bit of
15:16
Speaker 1: a scuffle, to the heights of the two thousand and
15:18
Speaker 1: eight winning a championship. Well, I'll give you a near
15:21
Speaker 1: miss story, which was, you know, something that really shaped
15:24
Speaker 1: me in You know, I think we can all attest
15:26
Speaker 1: the fact that nothing galvanized as a fan base like
15:29
Speaker 1: an abject failure. And you know, you hear about the
15:31
Speaker 1: lovable losers with the Cubs and the Boston Red Sox
15:34
Speaker 1: for a long time notorious, and you know, Golden State
15:37
Speaker 1: had such a long drought before they've had this tremendous
15:40
Speaker 1: run and a lot of the things that galvanize those
15:42
Speaker 1: fans is all those losing seasons. Well, I'll give you
15:44
Speaker 1: a galvanizing moment for you. So I'm dating myself back
15:47
Speaker 1: to the twenty eleven World Series. The Texas Rangers are
15:51
Speaker 1: playing the Saint Louis Cardinals. For those of you who
15:54
Speaker 1: haven't been utterly scarred throughout your whole life by this
15:57
Speaker 1: this series, I'll paint the picture that the Rangers were
16:01
Speaker 1: up three to two in a best of seven. We
16:03
Speaker 1: go to Saint Louis, Game six, We got a head
16:07
Speaker 1: of steam behind us. The game gets rained out, despite
16:11
Speaker 1: the fact that not a drop of rain falls from
16:13
Speaker 1: the sky, which was probably the first omen that something
16:16
Speaker 1: was about to go badly arrive for the team. But
16:20
Speaker 1: fast forward to the eighth inning. We're going into the ninth.
16:23
Speaker 1: We're up seven to five with three outs to get
16:27
Speaker 1: before we give up two runs. We had a ninety
16:30
Speaker 1: eight percent chance to win, which is one of the
16:32
Speaker 1: more crushing advancements in analytics is that you know at
16:35
Speaker 1: any point in any game exactly what your odds are
16:38
Speaker 1: to win. Well, we had a two percent chance to lose,
16:41
Speaker 1: and just you wait. So they ended up tying it
16:46
Speaker 1: in the ninth in a absolutely devastating fashion, and they
16:49
Speaker 1: ended up winning it in extra innings. So we are crushed.
16:56
Speaker 1: I'm watching the game in the stands we trudge into
16:59
Speaker 1: the club house. Things had happened so quickly that all
17:03
Speaker 1: of the lockers were taped off. The Champagne was sitting
17:06
Speaker 1: in the hall on Ice, the opposing team's general manager,
17:10
Speaker 1: had come down to congratulate us. He retreated from the room.
17:13
Speaker 1: We walk into the clubhouse and it's like a morgue.
17:17
Speaker 1: They're grown, grown men crying, and we walk into the
17:21
Speaker 1: manager's office. It's me John Daniels, the general manager at
17:25
Speaker 1: the time, Nolan Ryan, who was the president of the team,
17:28
Speaker 1: Ron Washington's the managers. It's silent, deathly silent. And Ron,
17:34
Speaker 1: who is just one of the most effervescent people I've
17:36
Speaker 1: ever met in my life, just looks at us and says,
17:40
Speaker 1: can you bleep and bleep bleep bleep? What just happened
17:42
Speaker 1: in that game? That was one of the most amazing
17:44
Speaker 1: games I've ever seen in my life. And he was
17:46
Speaker 1: like he was extremely energized by it, and it was like,
17:49
Speaker 1: you know what, he was dead right. It was a
17:51
Speaker 1: game that people will talk about forever because of the
17:54
Speaker 1: ninety eight percent chance to win and two percent chance
17:57
Speaker 1: to lose. In the moment, it didn't feel like the
17:59
Speaker 1: exact right time to be expressing exuberance about how powerful
18:04
Speaker 1: that game was. But that was a game that I
18:06
Speaker 1: will never forget in my life because we came so close,
18:10
Speaker 1: and the listener will not be surprised to hear despite
18:14
Speaker 1: the fact that that was only game six and now
18:16
Speaker 1: is three to three, we ended up losing Game seven
18:18
Speaker 1: as well. We do not triumph. It takes another decade
18:21
Speaker 1: before the Texas Rangers ultimately win the World Series for
18:26
Speaker 1: the first time in franchise history. But we literally had
18:30
Speaker 1: victory snatched from us in a very unceremonious way, and
18:34
Speaker 1: it's something that really drove me for the next fifteen
18:37
Speaker 1: years of my career.
18:39
Speaker 2: Both ad In one of the future episodes, after you
18:41
Speaker 2: break down that twenty eleven World Series, I'll share my
18:44
Speaker 2: experience of the twenty ten NBA Finals the year prior,
18:47
Speaker 2: very similar experience. I was with the Boston Celtics. We
18:51
Speaker 2: were up three games to two against the Lakers, again
18:54
Speaker 2: the second time in three years those two teams had
18:56
Speaker 2: met in the NBA Finals. That was under the old
18:59
Speaker 2: two to three two format in terms of finals games
19:02
Speaker 2: where the lower ceded team had three consecutive games in
19:05
Speaker 2: the middle. Games three through five were in Boston. We
19:08
Speaker 2: were up three to two heading to LA and then
19:11
Speaker 2: it really went off the rails in LA. We'll get
19:12
Speaker 2: we get into that and break that down, because you're right,
19:16
Speaker 2: it was so fragile, and that's what a lot of
19:18
Speaker 2: people don't realize. DNAs was great emphasizing that in Boston,
19:21
Speaker 2: to try to take advantage of your window in your opportunity.
19:25
Speaker 2: And one of the things that really stands out to
19:26
Speaker 2: meet that is we're recording this show the NBA Conference
19:29
Speaker 2: Finals are about to get underway, and the fragility of
19:32
Speaker 2: it as we look at the NBA playoffs this year, well,
19:34
Speaker 2: the Boston Celtics, the defending champions or without Jason Tatum,
19:38
Speaker 2: not only from this year, they've been eliminated but likely
19:41
Speaker 2: for most of all of next season as well. The
19:43
Speaker 2: Golden State Warriors were as good as any team in
19:46
Speaker 2: the NBA. They were a championship caliber club. After they
19:49
Speaker 2: acquired Jimmy Butler from Miami, they are out as well.
19:52
Speaker 2: They were up one to zero against Minnesota, Steph gets
19:55
Speaker 2: injured in Game one in the first half. They going
19:58
Speaker 2: to win the game, but then without if they lose
20:00
Speaker 2: four games in a row, So I think those are
20:02
Speaker 2: some of the things that we will take our listeners
20:05
Speaker 2: behind the curtain, Fad, just in terms of that fragile nature.
20:09
Speaker 2: And it's one of the things that you and I
20:10
Speaker 2: have talked about a lot off air too, just how
20:14
Speaker 2: much luck plays into it. As much as we don't
20:16
Speaker 2: want to admit it, it's impacted our careers, certainly, both
20:20
Speaker 2: positively and negatively. And I think with some of the
20:22
Speaker 2: other guests, whether it's players, coaches, or executives, we'll talk about,
20:27
Speaker 2: you know, some of the breaks they got along the
20:28
Speaker 2: way and sometimes where it didn't go that way. And
20:31
Speaker 2: that's one of the fascinating things to me about sports.
20:34
Speaker 2: It's not scripted, it's not predictable. Historically, in the NBA,
20:38
Speaker 2: you need to win sixty plus games to win a championship,
20:41
Speaker 2: and usually if you win sixty plus games, you're at
20:43
Speaker 2: least in the conference finals, if not the NBA Finals. FAD.
20:46
Speaker 2: We just saw in the first two rounds of the playoffs,
20:48
Speaker 2: the sixty one win Celtics are out, the sixty four
20:51
Speaker 2: win Cavaliers, the number one seed in the Eastern Conference,
20:54
Speaker 2: is out, and then the sixty eight win OKC thunder
20:57
Speaker 2: who had one of the best seasons in NBA history.
21:00
Speaker 2: We're teetering and on the ropes against the Denver team
21:02
Speaker 2: that was depleted. So that I think that's you know,
21:06
Speaker 2: those insights managing the emotions from a player, coach, executive standpoint,
21:12
Speaker 2: I think that'll be you know, fascinating to bring our
21:15
Speaker 2: listeners behind the scenes and maybe maybe a little bit
21:18
Speaker 2: you know, therapy for me and you kind of going
21:20
Speaker 2: back and forth with that. You know, we're living some
21:23
Speaker 2: of these moments, remembering the good, and maybe we can
21:26
Speaker 2: put to rest some of the bad that we still
21:28
Speaker 2: linger after after all these years.
21:30
Speaker 1: Well, we guarantee to the listeners this won't be just
21:32
Speaker 1: therapy sessions for me and Ryan to dump all of
21:35
Speaker 1: our tragic stories on you. There will also be some
21:37
Speaker 1: some stories of triumph there. But hey, listen that that's
21:40
Speaker 1: exactly the reason we're calling it Rosters to Rings. We're
21:43
Speaker 1: going to try to try to cover the strategy of
21:45
Speaker 1: opening day rosters and putting those together, and then how
21:49
Speaker 1: we every strategic step along the way to get to
21:52
Speaker 1: winning a championship, bring and like everything in between. Like that,
21:55
Speaker 1: that is our goal in bringing the listeners into those conversations,
21:59
Speaker 1: and we're going to be able to offer the general
22:01
Speaker 1: manager's perspective, a perspective that you know, we feel, by
22:05
Speaker 1: and large is often muted because we have this we're
22:08
Speaker 1: consumed with this notion of competitive advantages and not wanting
22:11
Speaker 1: to reveal too much to the fans and to ultimately
22:14
Speaker 1: to our opposition. But we're not no longer in the seats.
22:18
Speaker 1: We get to do that. And so one of the
22:20
Speaker 1: things we want the listeners to hold us to is
22:22
Speaker 1: we're used to answering questions in general managers speak, where
22:25
Speaker 1: we speak kind of in riddles. We want to speak
22:27
Speaker 1: very transparently to you, so like, call us out when
22:29
Speaker 1: you feel as if we're not giving those transparent, heartfelt answers.
22:34
Speaker 1: Will be here for that. And you know, another thing
22:36
Speaker 1: that I look at when I'm looking at the NBA
22:38
Speaker 1: playoffs and something Ryan I really want to get your
22:40
Speaker 1: perspective on in future episodes is kind of this notion
22:43
Speaker 1: of you know, when you're building a championship team, there's
22:46
Speaker 1: an adage that you need to have a veteran presence
22:49
Speaker 1: on your team, Otherwise, if people haven't been there, they're
22:51
Speaker 1: going to get overwhelmed by the moment. But yet, you know,
22:54
Speaker 1: one side of the coin. You know, one of the
22:56
Speaker 1: teams you didn't mention, but the two seed in the
22:58
Speaker 1: Western Conference, the Houston Rockets. It was one of the
23:01
Speaker 1: younger teams, not the youngest team in the playoffs, but
23:03
Speaker 1: one of the younger teams, and they ended up losing
23:06
Speaker 1: to a much more veteran team in the first round.
23:08
Speaker 1: I yet, that same veteran team showed some injuries in
23:11
Speaker 1: the second round and got beat by very young teams. So,
23:14
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes we hear definitively you have to have
23:17
Speaker 1: this veteran core to be able to overcome the pressures
23:20
Speaker 1: and the trials and tribulations that the playoff process has.
23:24
Speaker 1: In other sides of the coin, I think you see
23:25
Speaker 1: that sometimes these youth movements really pay off because they're
23:29
Speaker 1: probably slightly less likely to get injured. But sometimes not
23:32
Speaker 1: knowing the pressure of the moment is powerful, you know.
23:36
Speaker 1: And I certainly have worked with teams with rosters where
23:39
Speaker 1: we got into playoff situations, and it was actually the
23:43
Speaker 1: veterans who I think struggled in that moment because they
23:46
Speaker 1: understood the magnitude of being in the playoffs. They were
23:48
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit apprehensive that this was the last
23:51
Speaker 1: time they ever were going to be able to play,
23:52
Speaker 1: where sometimes the rookies play with their hair on fire.
23:55
Speaker 1: They don't know better and they think, oh, I'm here
23:58
Speaker 1: as a rookie. I guess we'll just go to the
24:00
Speaker 1: payoffs every year, And of course that's not accurate, but
24:02
Speaker 1: that's the exuberance with which they play and kind of
24:04
Speaker 1: the reckless abandoned. So I think that kind of cuts
24:08
Speaker 1: both ways. This NBA Playoffs has proven sometimes it pays
24:11
Speaker 1: to have the veteran but as long as they stay healthy,
24:13
Speaker 1: right because if those guys get hurt, sometimes it's a
24:17
Speaker 1: little tougher to recover and then you really are diving
24:19
Speaker 1: into your depth. But ran you know, we've talked about
24:21
Speaker 1: this before, I'd love you to shed a little light
24:23
Speaker 1: on the fact that we may be seeing some new
24:25
Speaker 1: trends in the NBA playoffs right now. And two that
24:28
Speaker 1: jump to mind that i'd love to get your thoughts on,
24:30
Speaker 1: and maybe first we'll start with this one is just
24:32
Speaker 1: it seemed to me that the NBA one of the
24:35
Speaker 1: biggest shifts from regular season to postseason is how much
24:38
Speaker 1: you would trim your rotation, and that typically in the
24:41
Speaker 1: regular season you're playing ten to eleven guys, whereas in
24:44
Speaker 1: the postseason you'd stick with your eight and maybe play
24:47
Speaker 1: nobody past that eight. What are we seeing in this
24:49
Speaker 1: playoffs that you feel is a little bit different.
24:52
Speaker 2: Well, even now that we're in the final fourth AD,
24:55
Speaker 2: we do see some contrasts on the team's remaining. The
24:58
Speaker 2: New York Knicks. Tom Thibodeau their head coach, who I
25:01
Speaker 2: work with in Boston, he's kind of been the face
25:03
Speaker 2: for anti load management frease. He's an old school coach.
25:07
Speaker 2: He plays his starters in his top reserver two a
25:10
Speaker 2: number of minutes. Really, if you look at the Knicks rotation,
25:12
Speaker 2: they only play about seven guys that Mitchell Robinson comes
25:16
Speaker 2: off the bench, as does Deuce McBride, but really that's it.
25:19
Speaker 2: They may play other guys spot minutes here there, but
25:21
Speaker 2: it's those seven. And it's kind of ironic. And I
25:24
Speaker 2: wonder if it will cause teams to re visit and
25:26
Speaker 2: reevaluate their stamps on loads management. That all these other
25:30
Speaker 2: teams who rested guys, who limited minutes, who gave players
25:33
Speaker 2: nights off and back to backs, a lot of them
25:35
Speaker 2: have broken down that they didn't make it. That health,
25:39
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, has been one of the key things
25:41
Speaker 2: in the NBA playoffs in the New York Knicks, who
25:43
Speaker 2: have the NBA's Iron Man, a guy we drafted in
25:46
Speaker 2: Phoenix mckel bridges and others playing forty plus minutes a night.
25:50
Speaker 2: They're thriving and they're healthy, as the Celtics and other
25:53
Speaker 2: teams break down and fall by the wayside. And that's
25:56
Speaker 2: one of the things that's so interesting in sports. We
25:59
Speaker 2: really hope to take our listen behind the scenes on this.
26:01
Speaker 2: That is it's copycat. It's copycat league teams copy trends
26:06
Speaker 2: until there's something else that works or something better, and
26:09
Speaker 2: then they shift and adapt. And so the NBA, You're
26:12
Speaker 2: absolutely right. Forever it was the same guys seemingly in
26:16
Speaker 2: the finals every year, Steph Curry and or Lebron James
26:21
Speaker 2: and or you know the old adage, you needed guys
26:23
Speaker 2: in their thirties to win. You needed veterans to win well.
26:26
Speaker 2: In the final four, the best players in this year's
26:28
Speaker 2: playoffs are all in their twenties. Tyrese Halliburton, Jalen Brunson,
26:32
Speaker 2: Sha Gildos Alexander and then Anthony Edwards, who is currently
26:36
Speaker 2: the same age. There's a lot of players who are
26:37
Speaker 2: going through the draft right now. So so yeah, it
26:41
Speaker 2: does shift and evolve. And one of the things that
26:43
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated to see is if the two deepest teams remaining,
26:47
Speaker 2: the Indiana Pacers and the OKC Thunder, advance out of
26:51
Speaker 2: the conference finals end up playing in the NBA Finals,
26:53
Speaker 2: will teams look at less star heavy rosters that that
26:57
Speaker 2: was always the trends in the NBA. We need a
26:59
Speaker 2: big three to big three. Well, frankly, the teams that
27:02
Speaker 2: have big threes, looking at Philadelphia and Phoenix in particular,
27:05
Speaker 2: haven't done very well in the hard cap era because
27:08
Speaker 2: they don't have depth, they don't have roster balance, and
27:11
Speaker 2: they don't have a lot of financial flexibility to make trades,
27:14
Speaker 2: whereas the teams that have a more balanced roster and
27:16
Speaker 2: a more balanced payroll are thriving and still playing as
27:20
Speaker 2: we approach late May.
27:21
Speaker 1: And Ryan, I think you're shedding some light on the
27:24
Speaker 1: cyclical nature of building championship rosters. You know, when your
27:28
Speaker 1: team is less experienced, it also means they're probably less
27:32
Speaker 1: pricey because they're less far along and they're earning cycles,
27:36
Speaker 1: and so you know, I harken back to the twenty
27:39
Speaker 1: ten team that went to the World Series with the
27:42
Speaker 1: Texas Rangers, and we were I think like the nineteenth
27:45
Speaker 1: or twentieth highest payroll just to retaine that same team.
27:48
Speaker 1: Going into the next season, we jumped to the fifteenth
27:51
Speaker 1: and then the next year we were up to the tenth.
27:53
Speaker 1: We really hadn't fundamentally added significant talent to that team,
27:57
Speaker 1: just the price of retaining that core. So whether you're
28:00
Speaker 1: building that that big three where you know you're recruiting
28:03
Speaker 1: those guys at free agent dollars and paying them up front,
28:06
Speaker 1: or you're retaining them. Because I saw the comments from
28:09
Speaker 1: Nikola Jokic where he was saying he felt that they
28:12
Speaker 1: just didn't have the same depth that other teams had.
28:14
Speaker 1: But that's due to run a little bit more of
28:16
Speaker 1: the maturation of that team right where he obviously is
28:18
Speaker 1: a superstar talent, But guys like Jamal Murray and Porter
28:22
Speaker 1: and other guys and Gordon got paid because they matriculated
28:26
Speaker 1: through the process, and to retain the talent, you had
28:29
Speaker 1: to pay them. So it wasn't as if they recruited
28:31
Speaker 1: him at the high price. That was just a matter
28:32
Speaker 1: of retention. And so maybe we're looking at a team
28:35
Speaker 1: there which is still within its window. But you know,
28:38
Speaker 1: do you as an executive of the NBA look at
28:40
Speaker 1: it and says, is that window starting to close? Or
28:42
Speaker 1: they may need to change that roster because you know,
28:45
Speaker 1: now they're on the backside of it. They've had to
28:47
Speaker 1: peel off so many of those championship caliber extra pieces
28:51
Speaker 1: that they had that put them over the top, and
28:53
Speaker 1: now they have to singularly rely on that smaller core
28:56
Speaker 1: group of guys. If any of those guys get injured,
28:58
Speaker 1: they're really compromised.
29:00
Speaker 2: That's the cost of success, and that'll be one of
29:02
Speaker 2: the themes on this show. When you're successful, your role
29:06
Speaker 2: players in particular get paid someone say overpaid elsewhere based
29:10
Speaker 2: on the performance, based on that productivity. And one of
29:13
Speaker 2: the things is so challenging, especially if you're in a
29:15
Speaker 2: championship window chasing the title, is trying to develop young
29:19
Speaker 2: players at the same time, and that's almost an impossible
29:22
Speaker 2: task for a head coach or a manager in the dugout,
29:24
Speaker 2: but organizationally, that's the goal that you have guys to
29:28
Speaker 2: replace in backfill. And you're absolutely right. The Denver Nuggets
29:31
Speaker 2: are a real time example of that. They won the
29:34
Speaker 2: championship in twenty twenty three, they dominated not only the
29:37
Speaker 2: Western Conference but the Miami Heat in the finals. The
29:40
Speaker 2: Koli Jokich was clearly the best player in the world
29:42
Speaker 2: at that time. But gone from that team are their
29:45
Speaker 2: poor role players. Contavious Caldwell Pope got a big deal
29:48
Speaker 2: from the Orlando Magic, Jeff Green left, He's in Houston now,
29:52
Speaker 2: Bruce Brown got a big deal from the Indiana Pacers.
29:55
Speaker 2: So at some point in the new hardcap era, with
29:59
Speaker 2: the second apron being so punitive in the NBA, that
30:02
Speaker 2: you just have to let guys go and you hope
30:04
Speaker 2: that you have enough young talent you're able to nail
30:06
Speaker 2: your low cost minimum signings and fill out your roster
30:09
Speaker 2: that way. And that's going to be a theme in
30:11
Speaker 2: the NBA, and we'll talk a lot about that on
30:13
Speaker 2: this show. The championship window now in the NBA is
30:16
Speaker 2: very narrow, and I think the best real time example
30:20
Speaker 2: that it'll be fascinating to follow over the next few
30:22
Speaker 2: months is the Boston Celtics, last year's champion, the favorites
30:25
Speaker 2: to win it again this year. We know the Knicks
30:27
Speaker 2: played great, we know Tatum is injured, So what does
30:30
Speaker 2: Brad Stevens and company do in Boston that And that's
30:33
Speaker 2: one of the neat things about doing this show with
30:35
Speaker 2: you every week is it will be able to break down,
30:37
Speaker 2: you know, often in real time, not only reaction to
30:40
Speaker 2: what happened, but also looking ahead to what we think
30:42
Speaker 2: is going to happen. Because I look at the Boston
30:44
Speaker 2: Celtics roster in payroll, I think they're going to have
30:47
Speaker 2: to make some excruciating decisions. And whenever Jason Tatum comes back,
30:51
Speaker 2: whether it's late in the year, next year, or in
30:53
Speaker 2: the playoffs or even the season after, I think the
30:56
Speaker 2: Celtics roster is going to look very different. And you know,
30:58
Speaker 2: I'd love to get your take on just the disparity
31:01
Speaker 2: in Major League Baseball. That's one of the things that
31:03
Speaker 2: stands out for me, you know, the disparity between what
31:06
Speaker 2: the Dodgers are doing at the high end and say
31:08
Speaker 2: the Marlins at the low end, and how you operate
31:11
Speaker 2: in each different salary range. I think that'd be fascinating,
31:15
Speaker 2: fascinating for our listeners to hear.
31:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Ryan, you're talking about it. It's like the
31:19
Speaker 1: cycle of winning a championship, Like we always aspire to
31:23
Speaker 1: build something that is sustainable and you know, part of
31:26
Speaker 1: your role as a general managers, you're constantly thinking you
31:30
Speaker 1: have a one year, three year, and a five year
31:31
Speaker 1: plan and they're all running kind of parallel to each other,
31:33
Speaker 1: and you hope they all work in synchronicity with each other.
31:37
Speaker 1: But as you just illuminated, it's incredible how quickly it derails.
31:40
Speaker 1: And you think your once your windows open, that it's
31:43
Speaker 1: wide open, and then you find out it's really one
31:46
Speaker 1: full season. And then you know the Celtics who were
31:49
Speaker 1: poised to strike again this year, and you know, we'll
31:51
Speaker 1: dive There's another topic we'll dive into, is you know,
31:53
Speaker 1: how rare is it that a team is being sold
31:56
Speaker 1: against the backdrop of a pursuit of a second back
31:58
Speaker 1: to back championship, Like you don't see that too often,
32:01
Speaker 1: and so you know, between Ryan and my experience, like
32:03
Speaker 1: we've been exposed to real time sales of these franchises,
32:07
Speaker 1: but that that's pretty unique. But you know, part of
32:09
Speaker 1: the reason that team is selling for a record is
32:11
Speaker 1: because the expectation was that they were one of the
32:14
Speaker 1: prohibitive favorites to not only win this year, but potentially
32:16
Speaker 1: if everyone stayed healthy, they were going to go into
32:18
Speaker 1: the offseason as one of the favorites. Well, you know,
32:21
Speaker 1: I experienced that in baseball quite a bit. You know,
32:24
Speaker 1: they're they're teams that you know, every year you aspire
32:27
Speaker 1: to control what you can control. If you win your
32:30
Speaker 1: division in baseball, you get to play home playoff games,
32:33
Speaker 1: and that is a boon. And so then once you're
32:35
Speaker 1: playing home playoff games, it's it's really a decided home
32:38
Speaker 1: field advantage. And then at that point you feel like
32:40
Speaker 1: you're you know, you take your chances, as Ryan and
32:44
Speaker 1: I discussed, like based upon injuries, based upon momentum, based
32:47
Speaker 1: upon a little bit of luck, maybe you can knock
32:49
Speaker 1: off one of the big boys and keep rolling. But
32:52
Speaker 1: you hope that that window is open, kind of open ended.
32:55
Speaker 1: It's it's indefinite, and it's amazing how quickly your team
32:59
Speaker 1: would is the young, upstar team that maybe has no expectations,
33:03
Speaker 1: all of a sudden has a expectations heaped upon them.
33:06
Speaker 1: And so to me, that was one of the biggest
33:08
Speaker 1: distinctions between the twenty ten World Series team, the twenty
33:11
Speaker 1: eleven World Series team, and then the twenty twelve team,
33:14
Speaker 1: which I could argue was the best Texas Rangers roster
33:17
Speaker 1: that we configured it lost in the first round of
33:20
Speaker 1: the playoffs, and I think the biggest difference there was expectations.
33:23
Speaker 1: And this will be another part of our conversation is
33:26
Speaker 1: you know, keep in mind, listeners that these guys we're
33:29
Speaker 1: talking about, these athletes are absolutely exceptional at what they do.
33:33
Speaker 1: They are in the top one percent in the world
33:35
Speaker 1: and what they do everything else, they are representative of
33:39
Speaker 1: all of us. They have insecurities, they have flaws, they
33:43
Speaker 1: have challenges at home that we all experience. They're extremely relatable.
33:48
Speaker 1: Outside of the fact that they can do things above
33:51
Speaker 1: the rim or hit balls harder than any of us
33:53
Speaker 1: could possibly dream. The rest of it is pretty much
33:56
Speaker 1: across section of humanity. And so twenty eleven, going into
34:01
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, we were the prohibitive favor to get back
34:03
Speaker 1: to the World Series and potentially win it. It was
34:06
Speaker 1: palpable to see how the players respond to having that
34:10
Speaker 1: level of expectations on them, because now, instead of just
34:13
Speaker 1: going and playing the game, anything shy of a World
34:16
Speaker 1: Series repeat performance would was being deemed a failure. Not
34:21
Speaker 1: by them and not by us. That's not how we
34:23
Speaker 1: were shaping it, but that's what the media was saying,
34:25
Speaker 1: that's what the fans were saying, that's what the pundits
34:28
Speaker 1: were saying, and it's hard not to listen to that.
34:30
Speaker 1: And it's incredible when you see a team which was
34:33
Speaker 1: just as talented as it was the year before, and
34:36
Speaker 1: all that talent warranted those prognostications, but now, all of
34:39
Speaker 1: a sudden, the mental side of the game becomes a
34:41
Speaker 1: significant factor that plays in and I think that's part
34:45
Speaker 1: of that winning cycle of which we speak and that's
34:47
Speaker 1: why sometimes when you as a fan, think, wow, that
34:50
Speaker 1: it felt like this team should have won for three
34:52
Speaker 1: to five years, but they only win for one to two.
34:55
Speaker 1: That heaping of expectations, that pressure, to me, always seemed
34:59
Speaker 1: like a sudden when you're sprinting, you've got a parachute
35:01
Speaker 1: behind you instead of wind at your sales. The teams
35:04
Speaker 1: that master that and can hone that such when they
35:08
Speaker 1: come to the ballpark every day, they not only believe
35:10
Speaker 1: they can win, but they expect to win. I think
35:12
Speaker 1: that's what propels them forward. But it takes a minute,
35:15
Speaker 1: especially for those young teams. And I think you know,
35:18
Speaker 1: as we talked about the merits of having veterans versus
35:20
Speaker 1: the youth, movement. I do think that's where you know,
35:23
Speaker 1: either the young guys have to learn that on the
35:25
Speaker 1: fly or the veteran guys need to be able to
35:28
Speaker 1: educate them to that, because that is a real pressure.
35:31
Speaker 1: You know, think about what it feels like when you
35:32
Speaker 1: walk into class and you've got a social studies test
35:35
Speaker 1: that you're not prepared for, or even the one that
35:36
Speaker 1: you are prepared for, there's a heightened anxiety. Well, imagine
35:40
Speaker 1: playing a baseball game or a basketball game in front
35:42
Speaker 1: of a packed house where there's pandemonium in the stands
35:46
Speaker 1: and everyone staring at you in every movement you have,
35:49
Speaker 1: and you're playing against the best in the world. These
35:52
Speaker 1: guys feel pressure, they feel anxiety, they feel stressed. It
35:55
Speaker 1: impacts their performance and ultimately changes sometimes the trajectory of
36:00
Speaker 1: these championship cycles that we go through. Ran I'd like
36:03
Speaker 1: to shift shifters. Oh, please jump in if you had
36:06
Speaker 1: some thoughts on that.
36:07
Speaker 2: Now. The final thing I was going to say is
36:09
Speaker 2: one of the things I really look forward to is
36:12
Speaker 2: bringing on guests who can talk about how the pressure
36:14
Speaker 2: is different with different organizations at different cycles in the
36:18
Speaker 2: franchise of development, and with different external expectations. Whether that's ownership, pressure, payroll,
36:25
Speaker 2: all of that. In Major League Baseball, imagine it's very
36:28
Speaker 2: different being the general manager or the field manager of
36:31
Speaker 2: the LA Dodgers and the New York Yankees than it
36:34
Speaker 2: is trying to run the Miami Marlins or Colorado Rockies.
36:37
Speaker 2: Those are different things. Same in the NBA. You mentioned NICOLEA. Jokic.
36:41
Speaker 2: If you have an all time great player in its prime,
36:43
Speaker 2: whether it's Jokic, Steph Curry, Lebron James, that year to
36:47
Speaker 2: year pressure is real. Now it's great to have those
36:49
Speaker 2: guys because they can single handily win you games, if not,
36:53
Speaker 2: playoff series if not, sometimes carry you all the way
36:55
Speaker 2: to a championship. But the pressure is very different than
36:58
Speaker 2: developing a bunch of young guys. In that case. Stat
37:01
Speaker 2: sometimes you're trying just to not let go of the
37:03
Speaker 2: rope and keep everybody positive as the losses pile up.
37:07
Speaker 2: So one of the neat things I think we'll do
37:09
Speaker 2: on this show is bringing people who have done it
37:11
Speaker 2: at all levels, and as you know that if you
37:13
Speaker 2: do it long enough, usually you're at the different levels
37:16
Speaker 2: you know you and I have been lucky to be
37:17
Speaker 2: in the championship round. I've also been affiliated with the
37:20
Speaker 2: worst teams in the league in Boston and Phoenix and
37:22
Speaker 2: in the middle trying to build through the middle. It
37:25
Speaker 2: presents its own challenges as well. So that's one of
37:27
Speaker 2: the things I look forward to on the show, not
37:29
Speaker 2: only you and I sharing our experiences, but bringing on
37:32
Speaker 2: different guests, especially players, coaches, managers, executives, maybe even some
37:37
Speaker 2: owners who can share with us and illuminate for our
37:40
Speaker 2: listeners what the different challenges are in those different roles.
37:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know baseball, as you just reference, like
37:47
Speaker 1: it's the last major sport that doesn't have a salary cap,
37:50
Speaker 1: and so you know, there are such different pressures in
37:53
Speaker 1: some of those big markets. You know, it's really win
37:55
Speaker 1: or bust in all of those, whereas I think it's
37:58
Speaker 1: some of the smaller markets. You can define success differently.
38:01
Speaker 1: Now you also deal with the realities. You know, I
38:03
Speaker 1: think in baseball the last thirty years, no team that
38:06
Speaker 1: didn't sit with a top fifteen Paarrol has won a
38:08
Speaker 1: World Series, and so parody is a real concern in
38:11
Speaker 1: that league. You know, there been fleeting successes from the
38:15
Speaker 1: Tampa's and Milwaukee's and Minnesota's and Cleveland's of the world
38:19
Speaker 1: but in practice that the teams that are triumphing and
38:21
Speaker 1: winning the World Series buy and large are those those
38:23
Speaker 1: payroll behemoths. But you know, one of the biggest distinctions
38:26
Speaker 1: that Ryan and I will talk about, and we'll bring
38:29
Speaker 1: in guys from the NFL to talk about this as well,
38:31
Speaker 1: is the notion that in the NBA, like there probably
38:34
Speaker 1: was a time where you could really build around one superstar,
38:37
Speaker 1: but even the teams that Ryan referenced earlier, that those
38:40
Speaker 1: all those teams have tremendous complimentary players on those teams
38:43
Speaker 1: as well. Baseball you really can't do that, you know,
38:45
Speaker 1: I think probably the pinnacle example of that, and this
38:48
Speaker 1: is not to take a shot at anybody, this is
38:50
Speaker 1: just the reality of it. Is the Anaheim Angels. You know,
38:53
Speaker 1: for a period of time had Mike Trout and Shoe Otani,
38:56
Speaker 1: you know, one guy who was unequivocally the best player
38:59
Speaker 1: of his generation and coupled with a guy who's proving
39:01
Speaker 1: to be maybe the best player now of his generation,
39:04
Speaker 1: and not only did they not win in the playoffs,
39:06
Speaker 1: they never actually got to the playoffs together and win together. So,
39:10
Speaker 1: you know, it is really tough when you're building out
39:12
Speaker 1: these rosters, especially in a league where there's a you know,
39:16
Speaker 1: no salary cap and you're trying to work within payroll
39:19
Speaker 1: parameter set up by your ownership group. The notion that
39:23
Speaker 1: you know, it's the intoxication of pursuing that star, but
39:26
Speaker 1: at what cost, Like what type of team can you
39:28
Speaker 1: genuinely put around him to build what you know you
39:32
Speaker 1: is required to build a championship caliber team, not just
39:36
Speaker 1: a championship caliber corps.
39:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, add another interesting angle I think that you and
39:41
Speaker 2: I can take, and we'll bring on some guests to
39:43
Speaker 2: share their experiences as well. But if you're a commissioner
39:45
Speaker 2: of Major League Baseball for a day, or I were
39:47
Speaker 2: commissioner of the NBA, what changes would we make? And
39:51
Speaker 2: I know, as you know, I look in my rolodex.
39:53
Speaker 2: You know, Adam Silver's in it. Byron Spruell runs basketball
39:57
Speaker 2: operations for the league, Kiki vandaway you to do the same.
40:01
Speaker 2: I'd be really interested to hear from guys like that.
40:03
Speaker 2: What changes are being discussed currently, What changes maybe have
40:07
Speaker 2: been discussed in the past but put to bed and
40:09
Speaker 2: then in the future. Is there anything on the horizon
40:12
Speaker 2: the teams are looking forward to and the leagues are
40:14
Speaker 2: looking forward to one hot button topic in the NBA
40:17
Speaker 2: fad is expansion, with Seattle in Vegas potentially being the
40:20
Speaker 2: two cities. So we'll have on I think a really
40:24
Speaker 2: interesting cross section of guests thatad. But you know, I
40:27
Speaker 2: threw it a couple names from league offices. I guess
40:30
Speaker 2: I could tap into my Celtics rolodex and maybe get
40:32
Speaker 2: on a Doc Rivers or a Danny Ainge or even
40:35
Speaker 2: player like Rajion Rondo, James Posey. As I look at
40:38
Speaker 2: my Phoenix Sun's time, you know, as I add up
40:40
Speaker 2: the career in ranks for Devin Booker and mckail Bridges,
40:43
Speaker 2: I'm not saying those guys owe me, but they're going
40:45
Speaker 2: to make between a half a billion and a billion
40:47
Speaker 2: dollars in their NBA careers. That's hopefully they get gig
40:49
Speaker 2: us half an hour show or so on this show.
40:52
Speaker 2: But who are some of the guys take our listeners behind.
40:55
Speaker 2: Who are some of the guests you know you have
40:56
Speaker 2: in mind that you would love to get on this
40:58
Speaker 2: show at some point?
40:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to be honest, Ryan, when you shared
41:01
Speaker 1: with me your list of people you thought you could access,
41:04
Speaker 1: I became a geeked out fan, I was like fired
41:06
Speaker 1: up at the prospect, you know, just so the listeners know,
41:11
Speaker 1: Like you know, Ryan has access to every single general
41:14
Speaker 1: manager in the NBA. He has access to the vast
41:17
Speaker 1: majority of the superstar players, access to owners, access to
41:21
Speaker 1: every member of the media. Like, hopefully I will be
41:24
Speaker 1: able to do the exact same thing on the baseball side,
41:26
Speaker 1: Like if you guys want to hear from any general manager,
41:30
Speaker 1: past or president. You know, Ryan and I are both
41:32
Speaker 1: personal friends with theo Epstein. THEO is most likely going
41:35
Speaker 1: to be a future Hall of Famer. He really transformed
41:38
Speaker 1: the game meaningfully, impacting marketplaces in both Boston and Chicago.
41:43
Speaker 1: Got to start over in San Diego. But he's a
41:46
Speaker 1: personal friend to Ryan and I know, and I'm sure
41:48
Speaker 1: he would come and share some of his wisdom with us.
41:51
Speaker 1: Billy Bean's been one of my biggest mentors. Obviously memorialized
41:55
Speaker 1: in the movie Moneyball, but he's been so much more
41:59
Speaker 1: than that, And he's been the embodiment of general managers
42:03
Speaker 1: past I think in Major League Baseball, a guy who
42:06
Speaker 1: is willing to take you under his wing. Never got
42:08
Speaker 1: a chance to work with Billy, but every year he
42:10
Speaker 1: took an opportunity to mentor me and we had constructive
42:14
Speaker 1: career counseling calls. Wonderful human being, exceptionally intelligent guy, dynamic
42:19
Speaker 1: really transformed the game. I'd be fascinated to hear from him.
42:22
Speaker 1: You know, if we had Moneyball two, which would be
42:24
Speaker 1: the team that we would focus on, who would star
42:26
Speaker 1: in it? What did he feel they got right? What
42:29
Speaker 1: did they get wrong? And Moneyball won? And how much
42:31
Speaker 1: did that change the trajectory of the Oakland Athletics franchise.
42:35
Speaker 1: I look at some of the Hall of famers I've
42:37
Speaker 1: been blessed to work with last year's Hall of Fame class,
42:40
Speaker 1: Joe Mauer from Minnesota, Adrian Beltray from Texas, and Todd
42:44
Speaker 1: Helton from Colorado. I was fortunate to work with every
42:47
Speaker 1: single one of those guys in my stops along the
42:50
Speaker 1: way getting one of those guys on to share their wisdom,
42:54
Speaker 1: Paul Mollador, Greg Maddox, Jim Tomy, some other general I
42:58
Speaker 1: mean a Hall of Famer sorry, who were gracious enough
43:01
Speaker 1: to spend their time with me, and I've developed personal
43:04
Speaker 1: relationships with them. If we could get those types of
43:06
Speaker 1: guys on in addition to being some of the best
43:08
Speaker 1: players of their era, their exceptional storytellers, and their preparation
43:14
Speaker 1: for the game. Once you hear about it, you would
43:16
Speaker 1: understand why they had the careers that they had, and
43:19
Speaker 1: just sharing a glimpse into that would, I think would
43:22
Speaker 1: be exceptional for the listeners. Any member of the media,
43:26
Speaker 1: you guys want to hear from in baseball, any member
43:28
Speaker 1: of a current front offices, past front offices, I think
43:31
Speaker 1: we can access. But a lot of guys who not
43:34
Speaker 1: only one World Series as players, but kinneley guys maybe
43:38
Speaker 1: who fell a little bit short in their careers and
43:40
Speaker 1: what happened along the way for them. We're going to
43:42
Speaker 1: share each and every one of those experiences stories. One
43:46
Speaker 1: of my best friends and mentors, Jamie Reid, always called
43:50
Speaker 1: baseball it's a funny game with even funnier people and
43:52
Speaker 1: funny stories. We want to share as many of those
43:55
Speaker 1: funny people and funny stories with you guys along the way.
43:58
Speaker 1: But one thing before I let you go episode run here, Ryan,
44:03
Speaker 1: I think one of the common themes that we feel
44:05
Speaker 1: throughout the game that we were blessed to work in
44:08
Speaker 1: is that the tie that binds all of us together
44:10
Speaker 1: is an exceptional passion for sports and whether that's the
44:13
Speaker 1: listeners listening right now, executives who've gotten a chance to
44:16
Speaker 1: work in it, or players. What is your origin story, Ryan,
44:21
Speaker 1: Why did you want to pursue sports when you were
44:23
Speaker 1: a kid? Well?
44:25
Speaker 2: That I was very fortunate to grow up in a
44:27
Speaker 2: sports household with a famous father. My father, Will McDonough
44:31
Speaker 2: is in the Sportscasters and Sports Writers Hall of Fame
44:34
Speaker 2: in North Carolina. He wrote for the Boston Globe basically
44:37
Speaker 2: his entire adult life for forty four years. So my
44:40
Speaker 2: brothers and I and our sisters, we grew up in
44:42
Speaker 2: the Boston suburbs, and our father was one of the
44:45
Speaker 2: very first sports writers to cross over that from print
44:48
Speaker 2: journalism to TV. That really didn't happen in the eighties.
44:52
Speaker 2: Usually either an on air TV personality or a sports writer,
44:56
Speaker 2: and you didn't do both. My dad's information was so
44:59
Speaker 2: good that CBS initially reached out, and in nineteen eighty six
45:04
Speaker 2: he ended up doing both. And CBS's thought was, if
45:06
Speaker 2: we can get Will McDonough for one day a week,
45:08
Speaker 2: and Boston Globe can have him the other six, but
45:10
Speaker 2: we'll have him on Sunday breaking news. So I really
45:13
Speaker 2: don't know if there's anybody like him in today's media.
45:16
Speaker 2: I think maybe some combination of Adam Schefter and Adrian
45:19
Speaker 2: Rojanowski and Jeff Passon. I mean, that's who my father was,
45:22
Speaker 2: and I think an older generation of listeners will remember him.
45:26
Speaker 2: And then my oldest brother, Sean. He's a long time
45:28
Speaker 2: played by play broadcaster. He's done big games at just
45:31
Speaker 2: about every level of every sport. Currently he's doing the
45:35
Speaker 2: NHL Playoffs for ESPN and ABC. He's done the World Series,
45:39
Speaker 2: he's done the Olympics, he's done college football semi finals,
45:44
Speaker 2: national Championship. He's not all of that, so he is
45:47
Speaker 2: current relevant and it would be a great guest. I
45:49
Speaker 2: probably have to buy a mistake dinner to come on
45:51
Speaker 2: and maybe bribe him with some wine, but that's that's fine.
45:53
Speaker 2: We can work these kind of things out. And then
45:55
Speaker 2: our middle brother, Terry Thad. He was a longtime NFL executive.
46:00
Speaker 2: He was a member of the Baltimore Ravens front office
46:02
Speaker 2: when they won Super Bowl five back in two thousand
46:04
Speaker 2: and one. So, as far as we know, our family
46:07
Speaker 2: is the only one with three brothers who have championship
46:10
Speaker 2: rings from three different sports. Terry has one from the Ravens.
46:14
Speaker 2: Sean has one from a broadcast the Red Sox in
46:16
Speaker 2: two thousand and four, and I have one from the Celtics.
46:19
Speaker 2: And the joke in our family was the race for two.
46:21
Speaker 2: And now that I think about, it's been a while
46:23
Speaker 2: for all of us, so I think we're all falling.
46:25
Speaker 2: We're all falling well well short, but that take us
46:28
Speaker 2: behind the scenes. Was what's your sports origin story and
46:32
Speaker 2: how did you get so passionate about sports growing up?
46:35
Speaker 1: So I grew up in northern Virginia. My dad really
46:39
Speaker 1: genetically passed down a love for sports to me. He
46:42
Speaker 1: grew up in New York City. My mom grew up
46:44
Speaker 1: in Mississippi. They ultimately decided to raise me and my
46:47
Speaker 1: sister in Virginia. The closest team of the time was
46:50
Speaker 1: the Baltimore Orioles, and so we'd go to about ten
46:53
Speaker 1: games a year and we'd pile into the car, my sister,
46:56
Speaker 1: my mom, my dad, and I and we would go
46:58
Speaker 1: to a game. And I remember distinctly, I was about
47:01
Speaker 1: five years old. I was sitting in my dad's lap.
47:03
Speaker 1: We were sitting just to the right field side of
47:05
Speaker 1: first base, about fifteen rows deep. An old, old memorial
47:09
Speaker 1: stadium and a pop fly came in our area, a
47:13
Speaker 1: foul ball. I'm sitting on my dad's lap without any
47:15
Speaker 1: hesitation whatsoever, he voults to his feet. He drops me
47:19
Speaker 1: to the ground, beer cascading down to me, hot dog
47:21
Speaker 1: mustard face down on my chest. He ranges into the aisle,
47:24
Speaker 1: catches the ball, and I'm just looking up at him
47:28
Speaker 1: like incredulous. And you know, I'm thinking at the time,
47:31
Speaker 1: I'm his favorite and only son, and he just put
47:34
Speaker 1: me in total harm's way in the name of pursuing
47:36
Speaker 1: this catch. He celebrates with everybody in the stands as
47:39
Speaker 1: if this was unequivocally his proudest day of his life.
47:43
Speaker 1: And keep in mind, he had been married to my mother,
47:45
Speaker 1: he had had two children, but this was the day
47:48
Speaker 1: that was going he was going to hang his proverbial
47:50
Speaker 1: hat on. And I was thinking, if somebody could love
47:53
Speaker 1: something that much that he'd forego the well being of
47:55
Speaker 1: his only son, maybe this is something I'd want to
47:58
Speaker 1: get involved in in my life. And so then, and
48:01
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're going to hear more about stories like this.
48:04
Speaker 1: But you know, when I graduated from college, I applied
48:06
Speaker 1: to all thirty Major League baseball teams. I got no
48:11
Speaker 1: response whatsoever. From twenty six I got formal rejections from
48:14
Speaker 1: four and I was ecstatic. I was like to date
48:17
Speaker 1: myself and Ryan and I may date ourselves a few
48:19
Speaker 1: times in the show, so bear with us. There was
48:21
Speaker 1: this team called the Montreal Expos. We've already referenced the
48:25
Speaker 1: Seattle Superstonics, the Montreal Expos. We should have a bingo
48:28
Speaker 1: card of all the franchises that are now defunct that
48:31
Speaker 1: we reference. But Claude Brocho as a team president, and
48:34
Speaker 1: he sent me a formal rejection letter, cordially inviting me
48:38
Speaker 1: not to work for his franchise. And I was like,
48:39
Speaker 1: I am that close. And so the passion for sports continued.
48:44
Speaker 1: I ended up going to work for the Rebox shoe
48:47
Speaker 1: company at a college, thinking that I was pretty close
48:49
Speaker 1: to sports. Within about six months on the job, they
48:53
Speaker 1: farmed me out to one of their subsidiaries, which was
48:55
Speaker 1: the rock Port Shoe Company, which was a few concentric
48:58
Speaker 1: circles away from professional athletics at that time. The demographics
49:02
Speaker 1: of Rockport at the time was if you were a
49:04
Speaker 1: man in a casket, you probably were wearing rock Ports.
49:07
Speaker 1: That was their demo. If you were sneakers up, you
49:11
Speaker 1: were wearing rock ports. But anyway, the journey continued from there.
49:15
Speaker 1: The passion never subsided, and I was fortunate enough to
49:18
Speaker 1: break in with the Colorado Rockies coming out of a
49:22
Speaker 1: graduate school and then just never look back from there.
49:24
Speaker 1: But we could talk more about that at some point,
49:26
Speaker 1: but that's kind of where it all started for me.
49:29
Speaker 1: And you know, another theme that you're going to just
49:33
Speaker 1: hear from Ryan and from me and from people will
49:35
Speaker 1: be on the show is just how incredibly blessed we
49:37
Speaker 1: feel to have had these careers. There's so many people
49:41
Speaker 1: who strive to work in sports. We were two of
49:43
Speaker 1: the fortunate ones who were able to do it, and
49:46
Speaker 1: just to work with so many wonderful people along the
49:48
Speaker 1: way that we were allowed to sustain careers of sixteen
49:51
Speaker 1: and twenty five seasons long and stay tangentially connected to
49:56
Speaker 1: sports even after leaving the franchises that we gave our
50:00
Speaker 1: whole careers too, so that that will be shared along
50:03
Speaker 1: the way. But we can't wait to hear from the audience.
50:07
Speaker 1: We want to hear what the listeners want to hear.
50:10
Speaker 1: We're going to be back here in a week's time
50:12
Speaker 1: in which we are going to dive headlong into the
50:15
Speaker 1: conference championships and we're going to talk more about those
50:18
Speaker 1: four rising stars that Ryan referenced and how they are
50:22
Speaker 1: prevailing in the championship round. We're going to bring on
50:26
Speaker 1: some people who have exceptionally keen insights into the NBA
50:30
Speaker 1: playoff process, guests to be named later, that you will
50:34
Speaker 1: hear from in the coming weeks where we break down
50:37
Speaker 1: the NBA, and we also turn our eye to Major
50:40
Speaker 1: League Baseball where the season is starting unfold and we're
50:43
Speaker 1: already starting to see some surprises, you know, from the
50:47
Speaker 1: triumphs of teams like the Detroit Tigers, the success of
50:50
Speaker 1: teams like the Saint Louis Cardinals who kind of pin
50:54
Speaker 1: this as a rebuilding season, as well as some of
50:57
Speaker 1: the struggles at the outset of the teams that were
50:58
Speaker 1: expected to do well, such as the Baltimore Orioles, and
51:02
Speaker 1: then sadly that one team is on pace to break
51:06
Speaker 1: a record in terms of run differential and total losses
51:09
Speaker 1: within of the year, which hopefully in the next couple
51:11
Speaker 1: of weeks we'll start writing itself. Because we don't want
51:14
Speaker 1: to talk too much about the Colorado Rockies if we
51:17
Speaker 1: can avoid it, so those will be our topics on
51:20
Speaker 1: the horizon. We appreciate your time, we look forward to
51:23
Speaker 1: seeing you again on Rosters to Rings with Ryan McDonough
51:27
Speaker 1: at That Levine. Please join me host That Levine, Ryan
51:33
Speaker 1: McDonough and other general managers every week for Roster to
51:36
Speaker 1: Rings on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.