Latest / Narcisist Psychology / He Taught Her to Count Calories - Then Counted Her Life
Transcript
- 0:03Speaker 1: At six forty one in the morning on December ninth,
- 0:07Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, a runner named Erin Tillman stopped at
- 0:11Speaker 1: the two mile marker along Hatchet Creek and found a
- 0:15Speaker 1: gym bag sitting upright on a wooden bench. The bag
- 0:18Speaker 1: was monogrammed enby inside a meal prep container held four
- 0:24Speaker 1: ounces of chicken and a quarter cup of brown rice.
- 0:27Speaker 1: It was still cold. Beside the food a digital scale,
- 0:32Speaker 1: and on a folded tracking sheet two different sets of handwriting.
- 0:36Speaker 1: One belonged to the woman who packed that bag, the
- 0:39Speaker 1: other did not. Nancy Boyd was twenty two years old.
- 0:43Speaker 1: She worked at a flower shop on Clement Street in Larimer,
- 0:47Speaker 1: North Carolina, and she had not been seen since the
- 0:50Speaker 1: night before. She had left her apartment without her coat,
- 0:53Speaker 1: without her phone, without as far as any one could tell,
- 0:57Speaker 1: any plan at all. There is something specific about this
- 1:01Speaker 1: case that resists easy categories. This is not a story
- 1:05Speaker 1: about a stranger. It is about a system patient calibrated
- 1:10Speaker 1: and built around the language of health. And it began,
- 1:14Speaker 1: as these things often do, with something that looked like help.
- 1:17Speaker 1: By the time you understand what that tracking sheet actually recorded,
- 1:21Speaker 1: you will not read the word coaching.
- 1:23Speaker 2: The same way again.
- 1:25Speaker 1: Nancy Boyd moved to Larimer in the spring of twenty eighteen.
- 1:29Speaker 1: She was twenty one, recently graduated, and putting distance between
- 1:34Speaker 1: herself and a college relationship that had ended badly. Millbrook
- 1:38Speaker 1: Pines was a quiet complex on the eastern edge of town,
- 1:42Speaker 1: the kind of place where neighbors learned each other's routines
- 1:45Speaker 1: without ever really meaning to her. Neighbor fey Dodd would
- 1:49Speaker 1: later remember Nancy as someone who kept consistent hours up early,
- 1:53Speaker 1: home by six lights out before ten. Every Thursday, without exception,
- 1:58Speaker 1: Nancy drove nighte ten minutes north to Boone to visit
- 2:02Speaker 1: her mother, Patricia. They had dinner, they talked. Patricia would
- 2:06Speaker 1: say later that those Thursdays were the one appointment Nancy
- 2:10Speaker 1: never moved, never shortened, never missed. Nancy had worked at
- 2:15Speaker 1: the flower shop on Clement Street since the summer after
- 2:18Speaker 1: she arrived. She arranged seasonal displays, kept the coolers stocked,
- 2:23Speaker 1: and knew the names of her regulars. It was not
- 2:26Speaker 1: a glamorous job, and she had not pretended it was.
- 2:30Speaker 1: She was building something small and stable in a new
- 2:33Speaker 1: city where she did not yet have deep roots. She
- 2:36Speaker 1: did carry one ongoing difficulty into that new life. Friends
- 2:40Speaker 1: from college described long standing issues with food and body image,
- 2:45Speaker 1: the kind that rarely announced themselves loudly, but shape a
- 2:48Speaker 1: person's relationship with meals, mirrors, mirrors, and other people's opinions
- 2:54Speaker 1: in quiet, persistent ways. Nancy had never been hospitalized, She
- 2:59Speaker 1: had never dine any one's knowledge sought formal treatment, but
- 3:02Speaker 1: the difficulty was there, and any one paying close attention
- 3:06Speaker 1: would have recognized it. In January of two thousand nineteen,
- 3:10Speaker 1: Nancy joined APEX Performance Training on Fulton Avenue. Thomas Baker
- 3:14Speaker 1: was thirty four years old. He had owned and operated
- 3:18Speaker 1: APEX for several years, serving roughly eighteen clients at any
- 3:23Speaker 1: given time, most of them women between twenty and forty.
- 3:27Speaker 2: He was certified. He had no criminal record.
- 3:30Speaker 1: People who trained with him described him described him as
- 3:33Speaker 1: focused and detail oriented, some one who took the numbers seriously.
- 3:38Speaker 1: He took them very seriously. Within weeks of Nancy starting
- 3:41Speaker 1: at APEX, a gym bag began appearing in her life,
- 3:45Speaker 1: a gift or something that functioned like one. The monogrammed bag,
- 3:50Speaker 1: a digital food scale accurate to one gram, and a
- 3:54Speaker 1: printed tracking template. Baker explained the template as a tool
- 3:58Speaker 1: for accountability. Nancy would log everything she ate, Baker would
- 4:03Speaker 1: review the logs. What Nancy did not know, what no
- 4:07Speaker 1: one outside that office fully understood yet, was what Baker
- 4:11Speaker 1: did with those logs once he had them. The tracking
- 4:14Speaker 1: sheets that would later be recovered showed two distinct handwriting scripts.
- 4:19Speaker 1: Nancy's entries filled the main columns, dates, meals, quantities. Baker's
- 4:25Speaker 1: annotations appeared in the margins. A strong week earned two
- 4:29Speaker 1: words in his hand strong week, a week with deviations,
- 4:33Speaker 1: and nothing silence where approval should have been. A registered
- 4:38Speaker 1: dietitian who later reviewed those sheets alongside Nancy's reported symptoms,
- 4:42Speaker 1: would reach a specific conclusion. The quantities Baker approved were
- 4:47Speaker 1: consistent with sustained caloric restriction over approximately six months. That restriction,
- 4:52Speaker 1: the dietitian noted, was consistent with the anxiety, fatigue, and
- 4:57Speaker 1: difficulty concentrating that Nancy had been reporting to Baker himself.
- 5:01Speaker 1: She was telling him about symptoms he had engineered. He
- 5:05Speaker 1: was using her reports as evidence that she needed him more.
- 5:09Speaker 1: Her therapist, Ronda Keller, who specializes in coercive control recovery,
- 5:14Speaker 1: would later describe what Baker built as a closed loop.
- 5:18Speaker 1: The program produced distress. The distress created dependency. The dependency
- 5:23Speaker 1: made the program feel necessary. Keller coined a specific term
- 5:28Speaker 1: for the role the food scale played in that system.
- 5:31Speaker 1: She called it instrument substitution, the process by which an
- 5:36Speaker 1: ordinary object becomes the last physical artifact of a controlling
- 5:41Speaker 1: relationship present in a person's home, long after the person
- 5:44Speaker 1: who gave it has been named for what they are.
- 5:48Speaker 1: Nancy Boyd did not yet have that name for any
- 5:51Speaker 1: of it. In the winter of twenty nineteen, she was
- 5:54Speaker 1: logging her meals, trusting her trainer, and driving to Boone
- 5:58Speaker 1: every Thursday to have dinner with her mother, Patricia Boyd.
- 6:02Speaker 1: Did not know Thomas Baker's name. The key was never copied.
- 6:06Speaker 1: That detail matters because when a neighbor on Nancy Boyd's floor,
- 6:10Speaker 1: a woman named fay Dodd, saw an unfamiliar man let
- 6:15Speaker 1: himself into Apartment fourteen in late October of two thousand nineteen,
- 6:20Speaker 1: the first assumption was forced entry. It wasn't Thomas Baker
- 6:25Speaker 1: had a key, because Nancy had left one under the
- 6:28Speaker 1: mat for a single delivery weeks earlier. She had simply
- 6:31Speaker 1: never asked for it back, and Baker had simply kept
- 6:36Speaker 1: it that was the shape of it from the beginning,
- 6:39Speaker 1: not locks, broken, locks left open. By late October, Baker's
- 6:44Speaker 1: access to Nancy's life had expanded well past the gym
- 6:48Speaker 1: on Fulton Avenue. He had a key to her apartment.
- 6:51Speaker 1: He had a coaching account installed on her fitness app,
- 6:55Speaker 1: a default setting that shared her GPS location continuously. Nancy
- 7:00Speaker 1: was not informed that setting was active, and he had
- 7:04Speaker 1: for at least six months, been controlling the precise quantities
- 7:08Speaker 1: of food she was permitted to eat each day. The
- 7:12Speaker 1: tracking sheets documented all of it in two handwritings. Nancy's
- 7:17Speaker 1: entries ran down the main columns in her careful script. Dates, meals,
- 7:22Speaker 1: quantities measured to the gram on the scale Baker had
- 7:26Speaker 1: given her. Baker's annotations appeared in the margins. When her
- 7:30Speaker 1: numbers met his threshold, he wrote two words strong weak.
- 7:35Speaker 1: When they didn't, he wrote nothing, silence, where acknowledgment should
- 7:40Speaker 1: have been a person learning to read approval in the
- 7:42Speaker 1: absence of punishment. A registered dietitian would later examine those
- 7:47Speaker 1: sheets alongside the quantities Baker had marked as acceptable.
- 7:51Speaker 2: The conclusion was seccific.
- 7:53Speaker 1: The approved intake was consistent with sustained caloric restriction over
- 7:57Speaker 1: approximately six months. That level of restriction, the dietitian noted,
- 8:03Speaker 1: is clinically associated with anxiety, fatigue, and difficulty concentrating. Nancy
- 8:09Speaker 1: had been reporting exactly those symptoms to Baker. She told
- 8:13Speaker 1: him she was tired, She told him she couldn't focus.
- 8:17Speaker 1: He interpreted those reports as signs that her body was
- 8:20Speaker 1: still adjusting, that she needed to trust the process, that
- 8:23Speaker 1: the data didn't lie. The data was his, the interpretation
- 8:27Speaker 1: was his. The instrument measuring her progress was his instrument,
- 8:32Speaker 1: and the symptoms his program produced were the same symptoms
- 8:35Speaker 1: that made her believe she needed the program. But here's
- 8:38Speaker 1: the thing. One label inside that jim bag would break
- 8:42Speaker 1: the clothes loop open. Aaron Tillman was running the Hatchet
- 8:46Speaker 1: Creek Trail at six forty one in the morning on
- 8:48Speaker 1: December ninth, two thousand nineteen, when she spotted a jim
- 8:52Speaker 1: bag sitting on the bench at the two mile marker.
- 8:56Speaker 1: The bag was monogrammed n B. It was unzipped inside
- 9:02Speaker 1: a meal prep container held four ounces of chicken and
- 9:05Speaker 1: a quarter cup of brown rice. The container was still
- 9:09Speaker 1: cold on its lid. Written in a hand that was
- 9:12Speaker 1: not Nancy Boyd's, was a label D eleven A M.
- 9:17Speaker 1: Tillman called Larimer p D. A missing persons report was
- 9:21Speaker 1: filed at eight that morning. The label read like an
- 9:25Speaker 1: instruction D was a dietary tear Baker's letter coated system
- 9:30Speaker 1: for what each client was permitted to eat at what
- 9:33Speaker 1: time in what quantity. Nancy Boyd had been carrying a
- 9:38Speaker 1: container portioned and labeled by some one else.
- 9:41Speaker 2: She had not packed her own lunch.
- 9:43Speaker 1: She had been given it. The distinction between coaching and
- 9:47Speaker 1: control had collapsed to the size of a four ounce
- 9:50Speaker 1: container on a park bench in December. What no one
- 9:54Speaker 1: at Hatchet Creek knew yet was where Nancy was the
- 9:58Speaker 1: night before the bag was f Baker had been inside
- 10:01Speaker 1: Nancy's apartment when she returned from her shift at the
- 10:05Speaker 1: flower shop on Clement Street. What happened in that apartment
- 10:08Speaker 1: is known from Nancy's own account given. After she was located,
- 10:13Speaker 1: Baker had her tracking sheet, He went through her numbers.
- 10:16Speaker 1: He told her the week wasn't strong. Nancy Boyd left
- 10:20Speaker 1: without her coat.
- 10:21Speaker 2: She left without her phone.
- 10:23Speaker 1: Those two absences no coat in December no phone told
- 10:27Speaker 1: investigators something about the state she was in when she
- 10:30Speaker 1: walked out the door, A person who stops calculating whether
- 10:34Speaker 1: she'll be cold, A person who stops thinking about who
- 10:38Speaker 1: to call. She walked eight miles to Patten's diner on
- 10:41Speaker 1: Route twelve. She arrived some time around two in the morning.
- 10:45Speaker 1: She sat in a booth and stayed there. At eleven
- 10:48Speaker 1: forty in the morning. On December ninth, police found her
- 10:52Speaker 1: physically unharmed. Patricia Boyd learned Thomas Baker's name that afternoon.
- 10:57Speaker 1: The interrogation of Baker was conduct did by Detective Aaron
- 11:01Speaker 1: Finch and Detective Vincent Spear. What the record shows is
- 11:06Speaker 1: that Baker struggled with a specific framing the numbers he
- 11:11Speaker 1: had collected, the logs he had annotated, the GPS coordinates
- 11:16Speaker 1: he had accessed through the fitness app. These, in his account,
- 11:20Speaker 1: were tools of accountability. They were the program investigators were
- 11:24Speaker 1: using them as evidence of surveillance. Baker, according to the
- 11:28Speaker 1: interrogation record, had difficulty reconciling those two readings of the
- 11:32Speaker 1: same data. He had taught Nancy that numbers don't lie.
- 11:36Speaker 1: The numbers didn't. One month after Nancy was found, a
- 11:41Speaker 1: detective from Haverford County contacted l Rimer PD. In twenty sixteen,
- 11:47Speaker 1: a twenty six year old woman named Susan Tate had
- 11:50Speaker 1: been hospitalized for a physical collapse attributed to an eating disorder.
- 11:54Speaker 1: The tracking sheets recovered from her case used an identical
- 11:58Speaker 1: labeling system, the same letter and time notation, the same
- 12:03Speaker 1: margin and atation style. Susan Tate had declined to name
- 12:06Speaker 1: her trainer during her hospitalization. She confirmed Baker's identity in
- 12:11Speaker 1: January of twenty twenty. The Haverford County case was formally
- 12:15Speaker 1: linked to Baker by method in the court record. No
- 12:18Speaker 1: additional charges were filed. The statute of limitations had lapsed.
- 12:23Speaker 1: Two explanations were available for what Thomas Baker had built
- 12:26Speaker 1: at APEX Performance Training, and they could not both be true.
- 12:30Speaker 1: Picture Baker in twenty nineteen running a small gem on
- 12:35Speaker 1: Fulton Avenue with roughly eighteen clients, most of them women
- 12:39Speaker 1: between twenty and forty. In one version of that picture,
- 12:43Speaker 1: he was a trainer who had developed an unusually intensive methodology.
- 12:48Speaker 1: The food scale, the tracking sheets, the letter coded tears.
- 12:52Speaker 1: These were the instruments of a coach who believed in precision.
- 12:56Speaker 1: His clients knew what they were signing up for. The
- 12:59Speaker 1: GPSA sharing was a default setting not a covert act.
- 13:03Speaker 1: The key under the mat was a convenience. Nancy never rescinded.
- 13:07Speaker 1: Nothing in this version crossed a legal line until you
- 13:11Speaker 1: looked very carefully. But that version collapses the moment you
- 13:16Speaker 1: look at the margin annotations. A coach who wants a
- 13:19Speaker 1: client to succeed writes more when the numbers drop, not less.
- 13:24Speaker 1: Silence at the moment of deviation is not a coaching tool.
- 13:27Speaker 1: It is a pressure tool. It rewards compliance and withdraws
- 13:31Speaker 1: presence as punishment. And the caloric restriction Baker approved was
- 13:36Speaker 1: not a performance diet. It was, according to the dietitian's finding,
- 13:42Speaker 1: a restriction level that produces the precise symptoms Nancy reported anxiety, fatigue,
- 13:49Speaker 1: cognitive difficulty. A coach who designed a program that made
- 13:53Speaker 1: his clients feel worse and then positioned himself as the
- 13:57Speaker 1: cure for that feeling was not running a gym. He
- 14:01Speaker 1: was running a system. The second version was the one
- 14:04Speaker 1: the evidence sustained Baker had selected clients with existing vulnerabilities
- 14:09Speaker 1: around food and body image. He had constructed a methodology
- 14:13Speaker 1: that those vulnerabilities made legible, a system of measurement and
- 14:18Speaker 1: approval that felt like care because It was precise and
- 14:22Speaker 1: felt necessary because it produced the distress it claimed to treat.
- 14:26Speaker 1: The fitness app's default GPS setting, left active and unmentioned
- 14:32Speaker 1: meant he always knew where each client was. The key
- 14:37Speaker 1: meant he could enter Nancy's space when she was not home.
- 14:40Speaker 1: The tracking sheet, with two handwritings meant his presence was
- 14:44Speaker 1: written into her private record. Ronda Keller, Nancy's therapist, named
- 14:50Speaker 1: the mechanism instrument substitution. The scale was the last object
- 14:55Speaker 1: in Nancy's apartment that still required Baker's interpretation to mean
- 14:59Speaker 1: anything until she could read her own body without his numbers.
- 15:03Speaker 1: The scale kept him in the room. Walking out of
- 15:06Speaker 1: that apartment on the night of December eighth, without her coat,
- 15:10Speaker 1: without her phone, without the container labeled in his handwriting,
- 15:14Speaker 1: was Keller observed the first decision Nancy had made about
- 15:18Speaker 1: her own body that Baker's system could not reach.
- 15:21Speaker 2: She left the scale behind.
- 15:23Speaker 1: On December fourteenth, two thousand, nineteen, Thomas Baker was arrested
- 15:28Speaker 1: at APEX Performance training on Fulton Avenue. He had been
- 15:32Speaker 1: at the gym when Lorimer p d arrived. According to
- 15:35Speaker 1: court records, he showed no immediate recognition that the tracking sheets,
- 15:39Speaker 1: the app data or the key constituted a legal problem.
- 15:43Speaker 1: He had, after all, taught his clients that numbers don't lie.
- 15:47Speaker 1: He had not considered that the same principle would be
- 15:49Speaker 1: applied to him. The guilty plea came in March twenty twenty.
- 15:54Speaker 1: The charges were unlawful surveillance, criminal stalking, and coercive control
- 15:59Speaker 1: under North Carolina Expanded Statue. Baker received four years in
- 16:03Speaker 1: supervised probation. No prior criminal record existed at the time
- 16:07Speaker 1: of his arrest. That fact is part of the record,
- 16:10Speaker 1: and it matters. A clean record is not the same
- 16:13Speaker 1: as a clean history. It means only that no prior
- 16:16Speaker 1: conduct had reached the threshold of prosecution. That distinction became
- 16:20Speaker 1: sharper in January twenty twenty, when a detective from Haverford
- 16:24Speaker 1: County contacted Larimer p D. In twenty sixteen, a woman
- 16:29Speaker 1: named Susan Tate had been hospitalized following a physical collapse
- 16:33Speaker 1: attributed to an eating disorder. She was twenty six years
- 16:37Speaker 1: old at the time of her hospitalization. She declined to
- 16:41Speaker 1: name her personal trainer. She confirmed Thomas Baker's identity four
- 16:45Speaker 1: years later in January twenty twenty, after reading about the
- 16:49Speaker 1: Larimer case. Her tracking sheets from two thy sixteen were
- 16:53Speaker 1: recovered from storage. The labeling system was identical, the same
- 16:57Speaker 1: letter in time notation, the same column structure, the same
- 17:02Speaker 1: silence where deviations occurred. No additional charges were filed in
- 17:06Speaker 1: Haverford County. The statute of limitations had lapsed. That is
- 17:10Speaker 1: the legal outcome. It is not the full accounting eighteen clients.
- 17:15Speaker 1: The records showed mostly women between twenty and forty years old.
- 17:20Speaker 1: The Fitness apps default GPS setting had been left active
- 17:24Speaker 1: on all coaching accounts Baker administered. The registered dietitian who
- 17:29Speaker 1: reviewed the tracking sheets found restriction levels consistent across multiple clients,
- 17:35Speaker 1: not aggressive enough to be immediately alarming to an outside observer,
- 17:39Speaker 1: but sustained long enough to produce anxiety, fatigue, and cognitive
- 17:43Speaker 1: difficulty symptoms that a client experiencing them would most naturally
- 17:48Speaker 1: report to the person who designed the program, the person
- 17:51Speaker 1: who held the framework for interpreting what the numbers meant.
- 17:55Speaker 1: Baker interrogation records, according to court documents, show that he
- 17:59Speaker 1: strungruggle to accept that the measurement system he had built
- 18:03Speaker 1: could be used as evidence against him. He had constructed
- 18:07Speaker 1: a language around precision and objectivity. That language was now
- 18:11Speaker 1: being spoken by Detective Aaron Finch and Detective Vincent Spear,
- 18:16Speaker 1: and it was saying something he had not anticipated. The numbers,
- 18:20Speaker 1: as it turned out, did not lie. Nancy Boyd was
- 18:24Speaker 1: found at Patten's Diner on Route twelve at eleven forty
- 18:27Speaker 1: in the morning on December ninth, twenty nineteen. She was
- 18:31Speaker 1: physically unharmed. She had walked eight miles through the night
- 18:35Speaker 1: without her coat and without her phone, and she had
- 18:38Speaker 1: arrived at a diner and sat down and ordered something
- 18:41Speaker 1: to eat, not from a labeled container, not according to
- 18:45Speaker 1: a tear coat. She ordered from a menu, and she
- 18:48Speaker 1: ate That detail is not in the court record. It
- 18:52Speaker 1: comes from subsequent reporting on her recovery. It is a
- 18:55Speaker 1: small fact, it carries considerable weight. There is something in
- 19:00Speaker 1: in this case that resists a clean resolution, not because
- 19:03Speaker 1: the legal outcome is ambiguous, but because the damage being
- 19:06Speaker 1: measured was never the kind that shows up on an
- 19:09Speaker 1: X ray. Rhonda Keller, Nancy's therapist, used the term instrument
- 19:14Speaker 1: substitution to describe the final phase of Baker's hold, the
- 19:18Speaker 1: scale as a proxy for his presence, requiring his interpretation
- 19:22Speaker 1: to produce, meaning Nancy could not weigh herself without in
- 19:25Speaker 1: some sense consulting him. The act of leaving the apartment
- 19:29Speaker 1: without the scale was not symbolic, it was structural. It
- 19:34Speaker 1: removed the last object through which his system still operated. Recovery,
- 19:39Speaker 1: Keller has noted in her professional writing on coercive control
- 19:43Speaker 1: is not a single decision. It is a sequence of
- 19:47Speaker 1: very small ones, made in conditions where the cognitive difficulty
- 19:51Speaker 1: produced by prolonged restriction is still in effect. Nancy was
- 19:55Speaker 1: making those decisions while her body was still running on
- 19:59Speaker 1: a deficit ba Acre had designed.
- 20:01Speaker 2: She resumed her.
- 20:02Speaker 1: Thursday visits to Patricia Boyd in February twenty twenty. She
- 20:06Speaker 1: has not missed one since. Patricia had learned Baker's name
- 20:10Speaker 1: only in December two thousand nineteen. For nearly a year,
- 20:15Speaker 1: she had noticed something shifting in her daughter. The missed visits,
- 20:19Speaker 1: the careful phrasing, the explanations that were technically plausible, and
- 20:23Speaker 1: she had no name for what she was noticing.
- 20:26Speaker 2: Now she did.
- 20:27Speaker 1: The name appeared in a court filing. It appeared attached
- 20:30Speaker 1: to a sentence of four years. Susan Tate in Haverford
- 20:34Speaker 1: County had waited four years before she could say the
- 20:38Speaker 1: name at all. The question this case leaves open is
- 20:41Speaker 1: not whether Baker was guilty. The plea is in the record.
- 20:45Speaker 1: The question is what the system around Nancy was able
- 20:48Speaker 1: to see and when fay Dodd saw a man enter
- 20:51Speaker 1: an apartment with a key and called police. When Nancy
- 20:55Speaker 1: left without a coat, Stacy Ingram heard Nancy's concern about
- 20:59Speaker 1: phone money, and without any malice, without any awareness of
- 21:03Speaker 1: the full picture, told her it.
- 21:06Speaker 2: Was probably nothing.
- 21:08Speaker 1: A default setting on a fitness app, active and unmentioned,
- 21:11Speaker 1: tracked Nancy's location for months before anyone thought to look
- 21:15Speaker 1: at it. None of the conditions Baker exploited were obscure
- 21:19Speaker 1: vulnerability around food and body image, a new city, a
- 21:24Speaker 1: limited support network, a coaching relationship that carries inherent authority.
- 21:29Speaker 1: These are not unusual circumstances. They are, in fact ordinary ones.
- 21:34Speaker 1: Nancy Boyd walked into a diner on a December morning
- 21:37Speaker 1: and ordered from a menu. That act should not have
- 21:41Speaker 1: required the courage it required. The fact that it did
- 21:44Speaker 1: is the part of this case that stays. This show
- 21:47Speaker 1: is made by Obo Media.