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Cardinals early season trends: Concerns over Willson Contreras? What about the pitching? · Cardinal Territory: A St. Louis Cardinals Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: It's Thursday, April tenth, a much needed schedule off day
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: for the Saint Louis Cardinals. Welcome back to Cardinal territory.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: I'm Katie woo Hee with Bernie Nicholas. The Cardinals went
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: one and five on their first road trip of the season.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: They have won two games in April. It was a
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: grueling trip to the East Coast. Bernie, your thoughts on
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: what was a rather disappointing first road trip of the
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: season for Saint Louis.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I gotta throw a curveball at you right away.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: So what about for you? Was it a grueling road trip?
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: It was the birthday weekend, you had family in town,
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: you had you had your girls in town. What did
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: you survive it? Okay, I want to I need to
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: know that before we continue.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Do you see me right now?
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Fine?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Well, it was I had a lot of fun in Boston, obviously,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: and I can rally. This is the big leagues. If
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna go out, I'm still gonna post the next day.
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Come on. But I will say this this road trip.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: I use the word grueling and my series recap on
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: the Athletic and that's how it felt. And it wasn't
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: the It was a six day road trip.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: You know, we've done ten eleven games straight on the
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: road and I have not felt this exhausted, So I
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: can't even imagine how the players do. But it was
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: so much in terms of the weather, to rain now
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: or a rain now, a doubleheader, two extra inning games.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: When was the last time a baseball team played thirteen innings?
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Come on, what are we doing?
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: I thought that's why we had the automatic runner, the
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: elements for freezing thirty or three straight thirty degree games.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: It was a tough one, all the fun aside because
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: that was my own doing all the things I couldn't control,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: the baseball, the.
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: Weather, the games. It was tiring.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I definitely feel everyone could use this off day, but
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: that's no excuse, and I know we're not making excuses
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: for what was a poor showing from the.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: Old ball club.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Again, one in five on the road, first roach trip
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: of the season. If Boston can swing it there a
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: good club you'd like to be able to take the
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: series from Pittsburgh on top of being able to beat
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Paul Skins on Tuesday, and they weren't able to do it.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Your thoughts, Ernie will start with you, because I'm sure
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: there's a lot to go over over the last week
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: of games.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was disappointing because, first of all,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: they should have won the Pittsburgh Series. And I'm not
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: saying two and four means you had a great road
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: trip and they there was one in Boston that got away.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, a rare off form day by Hellsley. It's
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: going to happen. I can't be rough on that guy.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: So they let some opportunities slip away. And I think
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: that's really disappointing for them because it could have been
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: a better road trip, and the last nine games that
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: you know, in general, could have been better as well.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: But I listen, I'm not saying this just because you
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: brought it up, but I actually think it is exhausting
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: to watch them play. It is because there were so
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: many times during and I know we're focused on the
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: road trip, but I'm also looking at like this this
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: block of games where they're too and seven and the
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: road trip was primarily that, but there's just so many
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: games where you're kind of like, oh my gosh, is
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: this ever going to end? It's like what next? What
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: are they going to do? What? What? What? Is what
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: is Pop Warner sending Siani home for on a on
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: a on a I was going to use a phrase
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I won't use, but it's like, what is he doing?
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: He's sending Tim to his demise automatically, Like what, like,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: what are they thinking? What are they doing? It's you know,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: the games were draining to watch, you know, unless you're
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: a robot, they were draining to watch, and I felt it.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I was just kind of like, my gosh, what an
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: ordeal these games. A couple of these games were, and
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: and I think that kind of is why the Cardinals
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: came home frustrated and very tired. And again, no one's
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: copping an excuse for them. They're pros, they go through stuff.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: We get it. But I think by number one takeaway
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: other than that, just the fact they're an exhausting team
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: to watch and you're never really sure what you're going
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: to get from day to day, a personality change or whatever.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: But the pitching was just awful. Now a couple of
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: different exceptions, of course, but the pitching by and large
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: was awful. The bullpen was spent, the bullpen ran out
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: of depth, the bullpen was almost non competitive. You know,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: not every player but you know what I'm saying, So
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: they've they're they're not. They're even with this offense being
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: as good as it has been, they can't be expected
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: to score six and a half front sprigade. This pitching
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: has got to get better. Except the scary thing is,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: as I don't know how, there's not a lot of
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: depth in Memphis right now. They sent Roycroft down. I
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: know we're going to talk about that, but it's easy
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: to say, well, the pitching's got to be better. How
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: do you make it better? How does it get better?
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: It's got to happen soon, especially with the Phillies coming
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: to town.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Yeap, you're spot on. As I was watching these games,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I felt the same way.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: You know, we are I've said this before.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: We are prepared to ride the roller coaster with the
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: Saint Louis Cardinals and the fan base as part of
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: our job. You know, the highs and the lows that
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: come one hundred and sixty two game season, that's part
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: of it. These are going to be some extreme highs
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: and lows, and it's going to be dependent on the pitching.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: You know, I thought Sunny Gray's outing was much better.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: His last two have been good. Eric Fetty was effective.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: You know you're gonna let a lead off guy on
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: to just make sure they don't score.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: He did that.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: It's I agree with you about the bullpen looking spent.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was evident they were spent before they
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: even left for the road trip, and even with that
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: off day last Thursday, it was hard for them to
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: rally and get back together. It just seems like there's
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: no other options though, to help this team get better.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I know that immediate argument is Michael McGreevy and I
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: do not disagree, but you have to think about the
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: long term plan of the season. The Cardinals have to
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: make sure they like are definitive on what they do
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: with the Miles Michaelis or a Steven matt Those guys
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: can't go to Triple A. You can't send them down
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: and bring him back up right. You can't like set
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: him to hope they get right and bring up them
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: a Greevy or bring up somebody. Yet they have to
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: almost go through this trial and error period in April,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: and that's what fans don't want. They don't want this
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: like highs and lows. You know, oh, michaeliss is in
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: today or Oh, here comes Steven Matt's at the bullpen,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: another somewhat shortstop from Andre Polante go down the list.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: Fans don't want that, and it's.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: A lot more difficult to understand where the Cardinals are
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: going because there is a clear option that looks better
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: from a fan perspective in Triple A and it's not
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: time to bring him up yet, So I understand why
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: fans are frustrated there. The bullpen is a little even
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: more dicey to me because you have Hallsley yes off
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: day in that game, want.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: Of that doubleheader. That's not going to happen.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: It was evident when he came out first batter he
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: didn't have his fastball command. Not sure what else you
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: can do in that situation except bride there's a doubleheader.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Can't pull him out, then you earned two believers and
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: you have nobody for what ended up being just a
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: disastrous game too. Ryan Fernandez is working on some things.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: It hasn't looked so good, but it looked much better
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: in that Wednesday finale against Pittsburgh.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: Jojo Romero is looking better. Kyle Layy, if there's one
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: person that we should be praising over the start of
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: the season. It's lay He He's.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Looked excellent, But it just seems like the Cardinals are
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: gonna have cover or trouble covering innings. And it makes
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: me a little nervous because in six days they're going
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: to implement that so called six man rotation. And I
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: asked Ollie, if Steven Matt' is supposed to be your
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: length guy and you're gonna put him back in the
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: rotation to help ease, you know, And it's important to
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: note that this is not going to be a traditional
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: six man rotation. There's gonna be built in skip starts
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: for certain guys where they'll have like a I'm gonna
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: call it a five and a half man rotation where
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: sometimes they'll skip Steven Matts and he'll still be in
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: the bullpen. Sometimes they'll skip somebody else and Matt's will
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: take that as a spot start. But they're essentially proceeding
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: after this week with down a reliever. They're only gonna
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: have seven relievers. And I asked Ollie, how is that
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: gonna work when the bullpen's already been spent and showed
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: that with an eight man ordeal, this is going to
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: be difficult for them.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: He looked at me and he just said they're gonna
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: have to cover.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: So he is not like a great strategy, And to
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: be fair, I don't think he said it or implied
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: it as you know, as if either. But there are
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: so many different dynamics with this transition plan, with this reset,
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: with emphasizing development, and it just doesn't bode well because
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: I really do think this offense can be the backbone
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: of this club, but this pitching is going to be
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: its demise if they can't figure out a way to
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: be effective.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know, I agree with you about McGreevy.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: I get it, and it's not easy to like. It's
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: not a simple thing to understand. It's pretty it's kind
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: of complex. But they also, you know, and I realize
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: it's very easy to kick Miles Michael is around. But
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: one thing that I feel compelled to point out is
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: I know he has a rep as an innings eater,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and by and large, even the last couple of years
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: that's true. You know, he's been mediocre or worse, but
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: he does provide a lot of innings. But that's changed.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I went back to late last season, you know, beginning
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: in all you know, August and then September and then
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: carrying over to this year, like his last twelve starts
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: he's averaged less than five innings. It's like four and
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: a half innings, and his ERA is six ninety nine,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: and he's got the he's got the worst RA and
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: the worst strikeout rate and the worst swing and miss
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: rate in the majors, you know, going back to early
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: August last season. And my question, you know, we asked
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Oli about this and you know, kind of put him
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: on the spot on Guest House Gang the other day,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and I just said, like, he doesn't have anything a
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: pitcher can survive with. Like tell I said, you know,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: what is it that gives anybody down there with the
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: belief that, well, he can do this and then it'll
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: get better. He's just incredibly he's so easily hittable. Now
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: there's there's not much defense there. You have to like
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: say a little baseball prayer that he's going somebody's going
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: to hit it right on the fielder. And Ali was saying, like, listen,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: we're trying, you know, we're gonna we're talking about this
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: where you know, we suggest things, we try on everything,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: but at some point he's got to get it done.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: And that was the first time I ever heard Marvel
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: in effect just leave that door open and like, yeah,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: he's He didn't say, well, he's on the clock, but
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: he made it clear like that this can't go on forever.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: So the reason I'm bringing this up is because it
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: fits into this six man rotation thing. I mean, if
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: you're six man rotation like you haven't you have guys there,
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: it can't cover enough innings. And the one guy that
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: is getting paid eighteen million dollars almost this year to
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: give you a lot of innings isn't. So how is
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: that going to help the bullpen When you're carrying Miles
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Michaelis Now you're you're going to bring matts into the rotation.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Like you said, it's not a traditional setup, but it's
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: going to be even tougher for the bullpen to cover
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: if these guys are getting bounced out of games early
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: or they can't go deeper into games. It's a real predicament,
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: real predicament.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: And that's why I think this upcoming start for Miles,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: which will be Saturday against the Philadelphia Phillies, yikes, it's
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: going to be very telling. And I think the next
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: couple of weeks as we approached the April sixteenth start line,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: if you will, for the six man rotation, it will
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: be telling about where Miles lands. You know, could he
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: go to the bullpen? Could him and Matt's swap rolls?
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: And Miles is the long man. You know, he's making
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: eighteen million dollars to perform. I know the Cardinals want
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: him out there to eat innings, but there's a difference between,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: as you said.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Eating innings and eating innings of quality, and there has
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: not been much quality lately for Miles. So that's something
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: I'm keeping my eye on as the next homestand begins.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Phillies astros.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Phillies can swing at Astros are struggling at big time,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: So we'll see how the offensively, I should say, we'll
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: see how the pitching shapes up. But this is something
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I'm absolutely monitoring because of the trickle down effect into
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: the bullpen, and we're always going to focus on the
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: efficiency of the bullpen. It's nature as a fan because
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: when games are lost late, who are we looking at
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: the relievers? And so it's just I'm not quite sure
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: how sustainable this strategy is going to be for Saint Louis.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: But I think we'll get a better idea as we
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: approach the home stand and see how these starters fare.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Some minor news to get into with the bullpen speaking of,
• 12:13
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• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Thanks for that. Let's get into the minor news on
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: the off day. Kind of saw this one coming. Chris
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Roycroft option to Memphis this morning. That is official. It's
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: on the MLB transaction page, so the Cardinals have not
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: announced it themselves. Roderie Munos will be the corresponding move.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I was told it was gonna be between him and O'Brien.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: We'll see. Let me pull up Munos's stat line. Memphis
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: has had some real bad weather lately, so there haven't
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: been a.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Ton of games to go off of. But Munos has
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: appeared in four games, pitch five innings for Memphis, three
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: hits one and run walked five.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: You don't love that struck out seven. You do love
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: that he is a former starter for the Marlins. He's
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: a big arm, he's got a big arsenal. The idea
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: here is to just be able to cover and be effective.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I think we'll see, and I've brought about this in
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the Athletic this morning. We'll see Kyle lay He get
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: more of a higher leverage role now again he's been excellent,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and we'll.
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: See Munos come in when needed.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: But as we saw, there's a huge difference in the
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Cardinals trailing by two and bringing in a reliever that
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: can hold that to two, or the Cardinals trailing by
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: two and bringing in a reliever and all of a
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: sudden they're down five. So I think the idea for Munos,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and we'll know more when this move becomes official probably tomorrow,
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: will be to kind of just hold the gap in
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: a deficit while the Cardinals look towards Lady to kind
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: of mirror Ryan Fernandez in that setup role. But I
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: think Phil Aton and Ryan Helsley in the eight and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: nine that's a lock and that's looks really good at least.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: And Mundo's is interesting because he does have that firepower,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: but he also doesn't seem to know where the ball
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: is going to go either, and that's a problem. But
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the main issues with the Cardinals bullpen.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, Helsley's can strike out anybody. I mean, Helsley's
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: got a great strikeout rate. You know, Kit Ridge had
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: had a really good one last year, Fernandez was starting
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: to have a really good one, and he's, you know,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: as you said, working on some things. I know we're
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: only twelve games in here, but I was I was
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: stunned to, like, look at how poor of a strikeout
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: rate this bullpen has. And that's one of the problems.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: The balls in play a lot, and they're walking people too.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: And again I don't I don't want to jump on
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: Ryan Halsey. That was just a bad day at the office.
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: The guy's an awesome, awesome closer. But there's some really
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: bad habits down there or some things that sort of
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: expose their lack of capability. And there's not a lot
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: there's not enough swinging miss there's not enough punch outs.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: And I think in today's baseball it's been this way
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: for a while. Now. You need that, you need you
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: need heavyweight punches. You need to just okay, you got
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: a dangerous hit or up, you got to get punch outs.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: You know you don't. You don't give them a chance
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: to hit the ball hard somewhere, and you know the
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: strategy shouldn't be, well, you know, we can get some
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: ground balls and get out of this. When you're relying
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: on batted ball luck. I mean, for a bullpen, that's
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: a disaster waiting to happen. And I think we're seeing
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: the early signs of that. So and I listen, I'm
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: gonna be insufferable here for about thirty seconds. I don't
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: mean to be that guy. I apologize, but I was saying, like, listen,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: they're that bullpen cannot be as good as it was
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: last year. And I was just like warning people that
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: consume my work. It's just not realistic. It's not fair.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: That was that bullpen was one of the greatest ones
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: they've had in a season in the history of the franchise.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Everything fell into place history shows and I did a
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: study when you have a killer bullpen like that, it
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: almost always regresses the following year, and sometimes dramatically. So
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: I hate to be that guy saying, well, I try
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: to warn everybody, but I guess I'm being that guy
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: for now. I'd like to see, these guys do a
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: lot better because it makes it more interesting when they're
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: a lot better. Because these late games, there's hope that
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: the Cardinals can you put one away. I mean, they
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: lost one game after leading in the eighth inning all
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: year last year, forty nine to one. They've already lost
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: one this year and the season is twelve games old.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: Is crazy, I know.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: See, there's there's no way that can be replicated. It
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: just can't happen.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: And listen to you, Bernie, because I was a bullpen believer,
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: and I'm sorry to doubt. I'm sorry.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: Like I said, I did say I was being insufferable,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: so at least I owned up to it.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: But no, I get it, and I think you're spot on.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: And here's the problem with this pitching staff as a whole.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: We already knew the starting rotation was again despite years
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: and years of this not working, a pitch to contact
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: staff the bullpen, with the exception of Brian Helsley and
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: to an extent, film Aiton to an extent slightly, is
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: a pitch to contact staff. These guys hells excluded. They
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: do not have any overpowering stuff. He plays this day
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: and age. The Cardinals are still stuck ten years ago.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: Stop me if you heard that before on a pitch
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: to contact philosophy. That does not play. And they got
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: away with it for so long because they were exceptional
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: at defensive positioning and they're athletic, and this club defensively
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: is really sound, and it's going to help guys like Polante.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: It's gonna help guys like Betty McGreevy when he gets
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: up here. But to you know, let's point out Miles
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Michael's to start last Sunday. They're hitting the ball and
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: it's not at someone you're in trouble. And that's the staff.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: That's the definition of the Saint Louis Cardinals' pitching staff,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: whether you're a starter or a reliever, pitch to contact
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: average VLO guys are sitting ninety two ninety three. That
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: doesn't play in this day and age. When you see
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: it every single day, I think the Saint Louis Cardinals
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: are like the easiest team to game plan against because
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: we're seeing the same pitcher every single day, every single inning.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: Oh the same guy.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Maybe a little different arsenal, but hey, they've got weaker stuff.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: They pitched to contact and it's easy to game plan
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: against so that I don't know. I think it's frustrating, definitely.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: I don't think we'll see a lot of performances like
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: that from Helsley again, but you might. You might have
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: been onto something Burnie about the bullpen, and I'm not
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: yet going to say that I was wrong, but I'm
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: getting very close. We'll see again, We'll see how they
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: can cover innings. We'll see about the patchwork job. I
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: did think this is an unpopular take. People are gonna
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: hate this. Sorry about it. I thought Ali Marmel did
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: a nice job managing Sunday, not Sunday's game, Wednesday's game.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: I know they lost in thirteen innings, but that, to
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: me exemplified what this bullpen is capable of doing when
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: everyone's clicking. And that was a like all hands on
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: deck situation.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: You have Betty for six, you applaud him, he got
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: through four walks and allow a hit, a raised five
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: out of six lead off batters that got on, Like,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: that's pretty effective. And then you come in and you
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: have Mayton do his job. Great stuff from Helsley or
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: not Helsley Lady in the eighth first time in high
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: leverage that we've seen him in that high leverage of
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: a game, in a scoreless ballgame, and then you just
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: deploy your guys because you know you're going to extras.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: And this is not like a home game. You have
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: to save your closer for when you have a lead,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: because I'm.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: A home If you're pitching in a tie game, there's
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: no bottom of the ninth, tenth, whatever, right, But if
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: in away games you have to save Hellesley and they do.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: You see Fernandez come in fix the stuff looked a
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: lot better. Great job by Jojo to get out of
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: the jam. And by that point, though, Helsey's been up twice,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and once the reliever gets up twice, you have to
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: put him in the ballgame. You can't have him get
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: hot a third time and then have him go in.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: You can't have him get up hot twice and pitch multiples.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: That was the inning for Hellsley. I asked Allie Marmal
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: about that after the game. I know a lot of
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: you on Twitter think that I don't ask all any
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: questions after the game, but I'm here too.
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: Let you know I do actually do my job.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: And he said Helsey was getting in this game regardless
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: he'd sat two days because he'd pitched thirty seven pitches
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: on Sunday. But we did not want him to sit
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: after a bad outing like that into and off day
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and then the next time he pitches his Friday. Once
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: he got up twice, he was going in the game regardless.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Obviously we had hoped to have a lead to use him.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: That's why he got up twice. But after he got
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: hot twice, I'm not doing that to him. He's getting
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: in the game, and then after that you're just hoping
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: something works. You see Steven Matz come in, nothing you
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: can really do with a deep fly ball to write
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: and that automatic runner, and then of course Chris Roycroft
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: just didn't have it.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: That game spet up on him.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: But in that situation, I'm not quite sure what Alli
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Marmal could have done differently. They scored one run in
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: thirteen games.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: I get it, you know, the offense is probably due
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: for an off night.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I don't really want to spend too much time clamoring
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: about what has been a very good offensive to start
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: the year. I do not think bullpen management was why
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: they lost that game on Wednesday.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Well, you and I totally agree on this, and I
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: was just almost taken aback, which is weird to say
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: you're taking it back by anything you see on social media.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: But people are just losing their minds over stuff that
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: to me, had nothing to do with the fact they
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: lost the game. Like people were just going bonkers, just
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: going bananas over the fact that he pulled Fetti after
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: six innings, and I'm like, well, did we watch a
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: different game? What in the hell did that have to
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: do with them losing in thirteen innings? I mean, I
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: didn't because of Eric Fetti and because Marmel didn't put
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: him out there for another inning. And I had people,
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: even people that I actually respect, saying well, if you
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: get an extra inning out of Fetti, then you'll have
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: one of your better relievers still available. Everybody gets pushed back,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, wait a minute, So what you're saying
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: is like any manager in baseball when he's got a
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: decision to make weather to pull the starter, a starter who,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: by the way, was out of gas by that time.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: He was he was tired.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: It was it was a really tough six innings. People
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: see the no hits and they think, oh, he was
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: he was domidating. He was, No, he wasn't so no,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: he wasn't. He had a walk. He had to really
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: fight his way out of jams. He walked for five
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: of the first five, five leadoff men in the inning,
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: got on in six innings. But the people that were
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: saying well he should have, yeah, well you see, you know,
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: I know baseball, And if you move him, if you
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: give him another inning, well then you're going to have
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: an extra bullet in the chamber later. And and I
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: know I'm randy, but my point being is, like what
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: manager in the history of the game sits in the
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: sixth inning and he's got his bullpen lined up to
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: cover the seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, even eleventh. What manager
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: sits there says, well, I better get an extra inning
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: out of Fetti even though he's gassed, because I know,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: I know this game's gonna go thirteen innings, Like.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: It's gonna make that same reference. Who does that?
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Like what manager sits It's like you sit there, like
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: what manager is thinking six innings ahead at the end
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: of the sixth right exactly?
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: And when was the last time, seriously, when was the
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: last time the Cardinals on thirteen innings? Because by the
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: eleventh I was getting both annoyed and also scared because
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: all three of the Cardinals beat writers on that trip
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: had a seven pm flight out of Pittsburgh.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, we're looking at the clock and we're like, uh
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: oh oh.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: No, I just my goodness. It's like, listen, I Ole
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: and I you have a unique relationship because he knows
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: that I jump on him for stuff. I mean, he
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: knows that I really get after him on stuff. But
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: let's try to be fair, you know, like, why are
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: people going nuts over what I thought were inconsequential things?
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: My good friends, they scored one run in thirteen innings,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: they went three for fifteen with runners in scoring position,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: They lost three runners on the basis.
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: They didn't play well and not play the good baseball game.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: And we're talking about Eric Fetti.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: What yes?
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: And it's so funny, Bernie, because I was thinking the
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: same thing, Like I had a couple of fans, and look,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: I love fan engagement and sometimes I kind of want
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: to pull my hair out, But I also like, I
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: understand you care about the sport.
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: You're not watching this podcast. We don't care about the Cardinals,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: So I get it.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And I will never stop trying to answer questions as
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: often as I can.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: You guys could ask them a little bit more nicely
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: to me.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: But other than I will always try to find if
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: there's something that you want to know or an explanation,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I will do my best to get it. But when
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: you're asking me why Chris Roycroft was in the game
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: after the Cardinals have already used seven other pitchers, who
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: else is supposed to be there? Luke and Baker like,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I get it, you want the best for your outcome
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: for your team, but really in that case, there was
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: nothing anyone could do except someone try to score, and
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: eventually the Pirates did. So we'll get to I think
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: a big concern and it's a hot topic in Cardinals
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: land about Wilson Contreras.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: But first we need to hear from our pals.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: It's time. It's time for me to forget where I
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: put it on this sight our friends at fandel Sports Network,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: you can now stream the Saint Louis Cardinals through FanDuel
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Sports Network and if you use the promo code Baseball thirty,
• 25:51
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• 25:53
  Speaker 1: free trial at fanduelsportsnetwork dot com slash packages. This deal
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: expires May second, twenty two, twenty five, nineteen ninety nine,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: a month after your free trial canceled. During your free
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: trial to avoid charges, eligibility restrictions apply. Visit fanduelsportsnetwork dot
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: com for details. We are going to launch right in
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: to our player to watch, presented by Fandelsports Network. That
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: player is Wilson Contreras. It has not been a good
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: start for the Saint Louis Cardinals first baseman.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: He is a ghastly what is it? Five four forty nine?
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Am I right? I think I'm one three.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: I know that I nine with twenty two strikeouts. That
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: is not what you want from your number two hitter.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: We talked to Wilson after the game on Wednesday because
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I think the big question that we're seeing, other than
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: the normal bullpen whatever you guys want to call it discourse,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: I would call it something else, has been is a
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: time to move Wilson controllers down in the lineup, and
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: that is a question been asking around.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: But I want to talk to Wilson first to see
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: how he was feeling.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: So talked to him after the game yesterday and he
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: was asked if this was a surprising start to the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: season for him, given how well his spring training went, contrarists,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: if you remember hit nearly five hundred in spring training,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: and this is I'm going to read the quote from Contraras,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: spring doesn't mean shit, oppose it, which is true. Opposing
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: pictures aren't game planning. They are just throwing fastballs down
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: the middle. If you watch my advice, I'm not getting
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: any fastballs and I'm not getting a good pitch to hit.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: I'm probably over swinging trying to do something I need
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: to get better at that.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: There are no excuses for me to not get better,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: and Contraras here is spot on. If you watch how
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: opposing pictures are sequencing against him, he is rarely seeing
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: a fastball. It's breaking ball, breaking ball, slider, off speed,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: anything except a fastball because he cannot pick up the spin.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: And the more that opposing pictures know that, the more
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: they're going to throw it at him, and the more
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: he's going to be come in this. I have to
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: swing hard to get out of it. He doesn't look
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: comfortable in the box at all. He looks frustrated. We
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: asked him, you know, hey, Ollie has said and yours
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: prior you maybe have broken a couple things. Maybe there's
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: been a batrack displaced from the wall or you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: broken chair or something, and he goes, yeah, I haven't
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: done that this year. Maybe that's hurting me. Actually, maybe
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: it's not helping me like I think it is. So
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: sorry in advance to the clubhouse attendance at Bush Stadium.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: But I'm wondering, Bernie, from your perspective, given how the
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: rest of the lineup shapes out and is looking, is
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: it time to drop Controra's in the order, And if so,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: why aren't the Cardinals doing it.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: That's a great question. And I'm usually inclined to say, well,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: you know, what's the hurry, what's the rush? Except the
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: memory of Paul Goldschmith stays with me. Oli stayed with
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: him in the two hole or moved him to the
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: three hole and put him at clean up, like he
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: was trying to find a spot for me, and Goldie
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: was just not producing. He was putting a lot of
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: pressure on himself when he was bat like second, third
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: and fourth right. Ollie finally backed off that and he
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: started moving him down in the lineup. And I looked
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: up these numbers today. I'm not going to read the numbers,
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: but when when Goldie last season batted fifth, sixth or seventh,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: his numbers were fantastic. And I really think that contraras
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: it would be a good mental break for him. Not well,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: you're batting second. That's a really important role because that's
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: in the way baseball is now. As you know, and
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: a lot of people know, the belief as you put
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: your best hitter second. Okay, that also means you bet
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: your best hitter. If he's batting second, if he's not
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: getting anything done, then they're fortunate the offense hasn't suffered,
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: because the offense has been really good except for yesterday.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: But I think it would do him well. This is
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: much like it did Goldie well to get out of
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: that hotspot. It gives him a chance to regroup if
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: you're you know, batting lower in the order. And I
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: think that that is it's just it's a move that
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: makes sense. It just makes sense. The other thing is
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: what Wilson is going to have to do. Is Wilson
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: part of the cliche. He's getting himself out. He's got
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: a forty one percent strike rate, He's swinging at everything,
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: and his his control of the strike zone is so bad,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: you know, Statcast has a thing where, you know, you
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: can look at the pitches that go to the heart
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: of the plate, the meat balls right down the middle,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: what every every hitter wants. Wilson is so messed up,
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: you know, just in between swinging its stuff way off
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the plate, letting not being able to do anything with
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: stuff that comes down the middle on those heart of
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: the plate pitches. So far, he's oh for eighteen, I mean.
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: That's not that's not Wilson as a hitter. That's no.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: No.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: So I mean he's he's going, you know, he's lunging
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: after stuff he shouldn't swing at. And then he and
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: then he it's like when he gets one right down
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: the middle, it's almost like he's surprised or something. It's
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: his head's not in a good space right now. And
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: I think very highly of this guy. He's a very
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: proud man. But his head space ears needs to be
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: cleared out of a little bit, moving him down and
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: the order would do that, It would help do that.
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: Anyway, I don't disagree.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: My counter argument is, and here's where the Cardinals are at.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Who do they have to put in the two hole?
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: This is an entirely different situation. If Yvonne Herrera was
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: not injured. By the way, I was vindicated. I was
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: vindicated for those who missed it for about three innings
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: when yvon Herrera was the number two hitter on Sunday
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: in game one of the doubleheader.
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: Now, did he get hurt that game, yes, but for
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: three innings. I was smart, dam I just wanted to
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: point that out.
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: But if they have a hitter like Herrera still on there,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: levon Herrera in case you missed it. By the way,
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: we'll miss at least four weeks with a bone bruise
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: in his left knee. No structural damage, so that's good,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: but a significant blow to the offense. He was on
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: fire before his injury.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: There.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: If they have Herrera, that's an easy swap. You put
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Herrera up in the two hole, you drop Contreras down
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: to maybe five or six.
• 31:52
  Speaker 3: We've talked about this before.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: I like how all the stacks is line up lefty, righty,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: left you righty. It's very difficult to game plan against.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: It works well, it clicks, but there's no one that's
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: screaming at me. That's a right handed bat that can
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: go be in the two hole. Now, the County argument
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: is well new Bar and Donovan are hitting really well.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: I mean really well.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: Donovan was thirteen for twenty three on the road trip,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: maybe like the lone bright spot of that trip. So
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: could you stack your lefties one two?
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: You could?
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: But then it becomes really easy to game plan because
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: you think about when that lineup turns over and you
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: have you go Victor, Scott Mason Win lefty lefty and
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: new Bar, Donovan, whomever, and with Nolan Gorman on the bench,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: it's really hard to game plan against that if you're allie,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: because opposing managers are going to look at that lefty
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: lane and that's where they're going to bring in their.
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: High leverage relievers. So then you're going to go to
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: your bench and you're going to put in Luken Baker
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: and then you're going to take away in a bat
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: from Lars Newbar or Brendan Donovan.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: Is that really what you want to do because it's
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: easier to play the matchups and you don't have Nolan
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: Gorman to combat that as a left handed bat off
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the bench to reverse it. So it's a complicated thing
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and it's a little nitpicky, but I understand where the
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: Cardinals are coming from. They want to make sure that
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Nubar and Donovan keep finding themselves in positions to succeed,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: and they found that in the leadoff spot and the
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: three hole Donnie and down lower a course against lefties.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if there's a right handed bat
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: that profiles better right now in the number two hole.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Do you well at this moment? No, But what about
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Mason Wyn if he continues to hit well, like he's
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: on a bit of a heater now, if he continues
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: to hit well, I don't want him batting line batting first,
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: but I could see him batting second in the lineup
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: for reasons that you just kind of laid out. I'm
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: just saying he's a candidate, you know, the.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Candidate, but there's not many I don't think they would
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: do that to him, and I don't think that's good
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: for Mason, given that he's just now figuring it out. Also,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I just love the victor of Mason tandem at the
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: bottom of the order.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: That's true too. And this gets into sort of the
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: they're overloaded with left handed bats. And I'm not saying, oh, well,
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Thomas A. Jac would be that guy. I'm not saying that,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: but he's a right handed hitter. He's got some talent,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: and at some point he'll be a regular part of
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the team. He just has to wait in line for now.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: But that's a right handed bet that could be useful
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: to you down the road. But in this moment in time, No,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say let put JC batting second, because, first
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: of all, how many games is he going to start?
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: So you tip of the cap, You brilliantly have diagnosed this.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: It's not as easy if it's just a lot.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Of people telling me I was stupid and explaining it
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: to me all the way around.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: No, and I'm not even I don't even have a
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: cheat sheet because I'm wondering why I'm forgetting somebody. But
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: I don't think I am.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Actually No, I mean, you're not gonna put Jordan Walker
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: on the two hole. He looks great where he's that's
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: the problem. Everyone else looks great where they're at.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: So if you messed that, if you mess up with that,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: you risk hurting the offense in a different way.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: The easy, easy fixed to this is Contrara's just figuring
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: it out, and that's what they're going to keep doing.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: If if Herrera was still here, if Herrera was available,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: we saw it already.
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: They would have done the switch.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: And the only reason Contrara's is batting in that lineup
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: was because they were facing a lefty and Sean newcom Now,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: if they're facing a righty, I think only Marma would
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: have dropped Contrarasts even lower but still kept Herrera in
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the two hole. They're not going to have Herrera until
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: at least another month. Their best line here is to
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: just hope Contreras can figure it out. And to his credit,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: he's working at it and he's you know, players like
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: that after a series like that.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: Can easily blow off the media.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: And I could tell from his face he kind of
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: wanted to, but he didn't, and he answered the questions.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: And you just have to hope he gets on track
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: because he's such a key piece to this ball club.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: Well, and maybe you know, we're all very impressed by
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: the quality of walkers at bats.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: We are.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: It's really impressive his patients. Even that RBI single yesterday's
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: coming off the bench. Now, look, I know he he
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: sort of chopped one through the right side, but the
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: picture was on the mound for the Pirates, a right
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: handed side arm guy who's throwing stuff that tails away
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: from right handed hitters. That's his weakness, and that's his weakness.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, he hung in there really really well, and
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: when he got something to hit, it's not like he
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: hit a bomb. It's not like he hit a gapper,
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: but he knew he did enough to know, Okay, I've
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: just got to if nothing else, punched this ball through
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: the right side. And that's what he did. That was
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: a hell of an at bat. It made him not
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: been the most beautiful hit, but it was a hell
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: of inn at bat. So maybe Walker would be When
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: do you entertain, hypothetically, when do you entertain the possibility
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: of him moving into a more prominent spot in the lineup?
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Is that something that you would speed that up if
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: he has another couple of good weeks. It's just kind
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: of stuff to put on the table to talk about.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not sure I wouldn't, just because
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: this is such a critical year to get Jordan Walker right.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: You know, why rush him into a different situation or
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: a new situation if he's finally finding success where he is.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I think a perfect example of this
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: is the catch he made Tuesday night Final play of
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: the game, so we didn't have a lot of time.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: To talk about it. It saved the game. That was
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: a catch off the baut the sound on a barrel.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Full disclosure. I closed my eyes because of how we
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: were going extras, and I.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Didn't hear I mean, there were like four people at
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: the game. I didn't hear any crowd cheering, and so
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I like, oh, my eyes, and game's over. So I'm like, okay,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: and I go back and I watch it.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: And if you can just see the read, Jordan Walker's
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: first step off contact is right where it needs to be.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: It's a great route. He's running.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: He's running and he puts his arm up and you
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: think he's like flailing, he's not going to get it,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: snags it easy money, cracks a joke to Victor Scott,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, that is a play he would not
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: have made last year. And he knew off the bat
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: exactly where to go, what to do, because he's finally
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: being put.
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: In a position to succeed. If you've read my work
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: at the.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Athletic for a while, that was a common point I
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: was making in twenty four that the Cardinals were not
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: ever putting Walker in a position to succeed.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: They are a lot of work from John Jay in
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the outfield, a lot of time spent with Olie Marmel
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: trying to figure him out.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I see the same thing offensively.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: It's going to take some time, but I don't see
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: the need to kind of rush him around. I really
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: like where Jordan Walker is that right now.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: I you know, correct me if I'm wrong, please, because
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: I can't claim that I've watched every at bat of
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: every game they've played. I have a short attention span
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: and I'm always doing different things. But anyway, has there
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: been one play in right field this year so far
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: where you're kind of holding your breath or even if
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: he makes the catch, it just looked wobbly, It looks
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: kind of shaky. It looked almost like lucky. For all
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: the plays that I've seen, he just seems like very
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: self assured, very calm. Yeah, confident.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: That's Ali is confident. Because we talked about this a
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: couple of days ago. He said, no, he's confident. There,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: more more comfortable, and it's going to continue to get better.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that he is going to be
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: some all star right fielder, but I'm saying that for
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the first time in two years, it looks like this
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: could work for them. And that's a testament a lot
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: of it to Jordan and a lot of it to
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: John Jay.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: And and you know, I'm sure Bran Brown's helped clear
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: has had a little bit from the hitting side. Coaching
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: does matter. And to me, Jordan Walker was a victim
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: of all of the things that were wrong with their
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: player development system. And just here, you know, they just
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: they just plopped the guy in right field after never
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: even giving him much time at all in the minor
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: leagues to work at playing right field. It's just like, oh,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: double A, you had two or three weeks of games
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: in right field down in Double A. Oh you're starting
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: right fielder in the major league. He didn't even know
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: how to play the visit, he didn't know how to
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: play the position. You know, how do you do that
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: to a guy? They did it. It tells me. It
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: tells me Walker's got a lot of character, a lot
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: of desire to be really, really good. And he I
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: must say, Katie, I've wondered about him in the past.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: He's a good person, don't get me wrong, But was
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: he someone who was receptive to coaching, you know, and
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: I wondered whether some of it is like they're telling
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: him some decent things and he's just sort of reject
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: thing everything where he's not buying into it. I think
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: the winter warm up we saw when he appeared on
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: the podium, you know, whoa where did this guy come from?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: He's breaking down his Yeah, he's breaking down his swing
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: and he's excited about what he's worked on. So this
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: the coaching has made a world of difference for him
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: so far. And it also just makes me sick that
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: how poorly they brought him along.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: On this one.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: Don't give me tired on this one because I have
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: a lot to say, none of it nice, but I'm
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: with you. Let me just say I'm with you last
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: thing before we head out. Okay, the Cardinals will welcome
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Phillies, who are They play the Atlanta Braves
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: tonight in Atlanta. They will face the probables for the Phillies,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Maar Nola, Christopher Sanchez, and Zach Wheeler, So go get
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: them boys.
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: That will be a good test for the offense.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: The Cardinals, on the other hand, will throw Andre Polante,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Miles Michaelis and.
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: That's the Liberatory.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well all right, Hey, if you want to recover
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: from that road trip, you win the Philly series, right,
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: you feel a lot better about yourself you.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Winning, given how the problems I just read. If a
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Cardinals take two or three out of Philly from Philly,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: that would be a very impressive feat.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Can I ask you one thing? And I don't you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: I know you want to tight schedule. It's a quest.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: I'm not going I'm not horsing around with this one.
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to ask you about your social plans
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: or whatever.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: No, I'm going to take an out.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Did you see anything during this road trip or during
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: the last nine games that tells you that confident, you know,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: cocky in a good way team that came out of
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: spring training. We're going to show the world and them.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Have you seen any any signs of that wavering a
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: little bit?
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: I that's a good question. I don't want to say
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: it was wavering. I think they just wanted to get
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: out of Pittsburgh, and I get it. I mean it
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: was miserable outside, and I just think they were like, man,
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: I want to go home. I want to go back
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: to Saint Louis. Like, let's figure it. I think they
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: just needed to recharge, They needed a reset. It was
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: not a good road trip. If the doubleheader really.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Like killed some or crushed some people, killed their spirits.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: I ran into Nolan Arnatto before Monday's game and he
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I was like, are you good? He goes this doubleheader
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: crushed me and he's like, I think I'm sick. And
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: then he was ended ended up being scratched. So I
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: don't want to say it's wavery and I still think
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: they're a confident bunch. I liked the fight that they showed,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: even in that blowout on ESPN.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: We'll have a good test to see where they're at
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: after an off day. I would not read too much
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: into the results from a you know, personality standpoint, if
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: you will. I just think the team really wanted to
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: go to Pittsburgh.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Makes sense, makes kind of look kind of looked like it.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Uh, it looked like a getaway game yesterday. Not both
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: from both teams.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: Both teams were like this enough already to the point
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: where they just couldn't put it away either side.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: And there's that word again, reset, Reset time for.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, season, all right, that's always It was a pleasure.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: Anything else no, no, no.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Wonderful to talk with you as always. Thanks for having
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: me on with you one Cardinal Territory.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: Love it, part of my favorite one of my favorite
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: things of the week.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: We'll be back with you at some point next week
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Philly's in Town Astros after for Bernie Nicholas. I'm Katie
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: wo Thanks for watching Cardinal Territory.