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Shame Voice, No More · Is Your Way In Your Way?

0:25
Cassandra: Good day out there to all of my listeners, and I'd like to welcome you to It's Your Way in Your Way podcast.
0:32
Cassandra: And I'm your host.
0:33
Cassandra: My name is Cassandra Crawley, and I am a transformational lifestyle mentor who empowers women to live their best life on their terms.
0:45
Cassandra: And I'm finding it's been very difficult because of those self-imposed barriers that we have.
0:50
Cassandra: And that's why I like to have topics on for what I call self-improvement, empowerment, and things of that nature.
0:58
Cassandra: And today our topic is called the shame voice.
1:02
Cassandra: And then I have uh I have a uh a question for you.
1:07
Cassandra: Have you ever, ever felt like you've done a therapy, you've done self-help books, you've done prayer, you've done yoga, you've done all of this stuff, but you're still finding yourself stuck in these patterns and your old patterns, patterns like something inside you keeps silencing your voice and sabotaging your success.
1:31
Cassandra: But my guest today, Emma Lyons, calls it the shame voice, and that's why this topic is called the shame voice.
1:39
Cassandra: It's an internalized system of control that runs us from the inside out, and once you recognize it, you can finally break three, break free.
1:50
Cassandra: Excuse me.
1:51
Cassandra: So let's get ready because today's conversation isn't just about healing, it's about a jail break for your soul.
1:58
Cassandra: So let's welcome to the stage, Emma Lyons.
2:03
Cassandra: Hey Emma.
2:04
Emma: Hey Cassandra, thank you so much.
2:06
Emma: Uh, I feel very at home here because we are very much on the same page.
2:10
Cassandra: Yes, we are.
2:11
Cassandra: Yes, we are.
2:12
Cassandra: And the first thing I'd like to do, Emma, is read a little bit of my bio so that my listeners will get a better understanding of what qualifies you to talk about what we're going to discuss today.
2:26
Cassandra: Emma Lyons is a trauma informed healer and founder of the trauma matrix.
2:33
Cassandra: She guides high-functioning, heart-led women to dismantle, dismantle the inner shame voice, the internalized control system that fuels burnout, invisibility, and self-sabotage.
2:49
Cassandra: After she left behind a law and human rights career that looked successful but felt soul crushing.
2:58
Cassandra: She spent over a decade in deep healing work.
3:02
Cassandra: Now she helps women reclaim their clarity, power, and nervous system freedom so they can thrive in their truth without shame running the show.
3:13
Cassandra: Wow, Emma, this is gonna be exciting.
3:16
Cassandra: But let me let me ask you this.
3:18
Cassandra: I want to know about your backstory, and the reason I want to know about that, because you indicated how your childhood dynamics has a lot to do with your success in the latter years.
3:32
Cassandra: So tell us a little bit about your backstory, your childhood.
3:36
Emma: Well, it's really interesting because for years I thought I was the problem.
3:40
Emma: You know, I thought I was the odd one out, I thought I just had it was mental was my my issue.
3:47
Emma: But what I recently discovered is that my family is kind of quietly dysfunctional or narcissistic.
3:55
Emma: And um, my mother has many of the traits of a covert narcissist, and her mother was was quite a malignant narcissist, although that terminology didn't really exist at the time.
4:06
Emma: She was uh quite you know sadistic in some ways, very manipulative, my grandmother, and also you know, abused my abused my uncle, but and he was also the scapegoat.
4:18
Emma: I've identified that he was the scapegoat of that particularly family system, so it was um really interesting to kind of uncover that it wasn't my it wasn't my fault.
4:28
Emma: I'm not the problem.
4:30
Emma: The problem is the kind of thick and twisted system of many of the families that were brought up in Cassandra because let's face it, intergenerational trauma is real.
4:41
Emma: People, my parents, their parents, they did not, they were not doing any work on themselves.
4:47
Emma: And we're a couple of generations back, you know, we're we're talking, we're talking famine, we're talking genocide, we're talking, you know, not too far back, slavery, all kinds of things where it get it all gets passed down.
5:00
Emma: What we don't deal with, it gets passed down through the generations, and it will children and it will kind of come out in these twisted forms of you know, people becoming narcissists and abusive, because that was their coping mechanism to survive the their twisted upbringing.
5:17
Emma: So it's um it was really it's been a very difficult journey, I'll be honest, because you know, you go through the whole process, grief and rage and everything.
5:27
Emma: And but it's also been liberating because all this time I thought it was the problem, but my body all the time knew, you know, my my nervous system knew before I could cognitively recognize what was going on.
5:40
Emma: My body was sending me messages, my body would kind of got tighten, and I was like, What's going on?
5:46
Emma: You know, because it's so subtle, this kind of controlling, covert abuse, most people won't even see it.
5:53
Emma: But it's like um this kind of sh utilizing shame and guilt to get people to do what you want.
6:01
Emma: And um, I realized that you know, my mother had was this was her modus operandi.
6:07
Emma: And I also realized that this system kind of fractals out everywhere in the world because you see this same kind of family dysfunction happening, you see the scapegoating, you see the golden children, you see it everywhere.
6:19
Emma: And when when you you fractal out, like look at the bigger picture, cultures and countries, and you know, they're all scapegoating and they're all operating from this repressed shame.
6:28
Emma: I also recognized then that I also internalized this, so that was the key.
6:33
Emma: That was how I recognized this voice, because I'd always felt from a very young age, I really operated from a lot of shame.
6:41
Emma: And I thought this was my intuition, I thought it was my guide, I thought it was my um, you know, something that needed healing, something that I needed to empathize with.
6:51
Emma: And what I realized it's been it's been extremely liberating for me is to recognize that this is actually the ego, this is an a narcissist that I've internalized that I call it.
7:03
Cassandra: Let me ask you, um, you said covert um abuse shame.
7:09
Cassandra: Yes.
7:10
Cassandra: Explain the the behavior that that uh convey shame that you did that that you experience.
7:20
Cassandra: Like what type of behavior does that entail?
7:25
Emma: Well, they're shaming you for for being you, like the whole in dysfunctional in family systems, children are kind of assigned roles.
7:33
Emma: So this has been this has been researched and investigated.
7:38
Emma: So this is how they they they kind of they split this things up in order to cope systematically.
7:44
Emma: So someone is selected to be the golden child, this is the favorite, somebody is selected to be the scapegoat, and you basically become kind of the landfill for all the on-processed shame and guilt that nobody wants to deal with.
7:57
Emma: It gets dumped on you, and it can it can come out in like shaming, like I was called weird as a child, you know, around the dinner table.
8:05
Emma: Um, I was called useless one time when I was late coming to the car, but it can also be in more subtle ways, you know.
8:13
Emma: Just kind of I was also I was the skate and I was also the invisible child.
8:18
Emma: That's another role that you often find in dysfunctional and narcissistic families.
8:23
Emma: So I was kind of exiled, I was off doing my own thing and very aggressive from childhood, and and nobody nobody wanted to see that, so they just thought Emma's off on her own, she's fine.
8:35
Emma: They didn't want to see because that would have required, and that's still the case, you know.
8:40
Emma: Yeah, they don't want to even now when I've said I need some time, I can't no, I'm not talking to anyone at the moment, I need some time.
8:48
Emma: They never ask, How are you?
8:51
Emma: They never, you know, there's no real emotional connection.
8:55
Emma: Sure.
8:56
Emma: Okay, that's extremely damaging for for all children, but particularly if you're the sensitive type of child, you need that emotional connection, you need to get that mirroring, otherwise, you just feel you internalize it.
9:09
Emma: And I did internalize all those beliefs.
9:11
Emma: I thought from a very young age, I'm ugly, I'm stupid, I'm no good, I'm a failure.
9:17
Emma: Right.
9:17
Emma: These were the programs that were running, and I didn't know where they came from until I uncover this kind of covert system of abuse that's running.
9:27
Emma: And I take all the boxes of someone who's been scapegoated.
9:30
Emma: And when I look back, I can see it very clearly.
9:33
Emma: But it's it's it's invisible abuse that doesn't leave bruises, but it leaves emotional scarring, the same kind of emotional scars of someone who's been sexually abused, for example, that same emotional scarring, because for years I you know, I was wondering why I never could have a relationship, why I was, you know, uh emotionally avoidant.
9:57
Emma: And it's because of this this pattern that I that I that I adapted for to in order to survive.
10:04
Emma: Right.
10:04
Emma: I adapted being the being independent, being fine, not needing anyone, being vulnerable, it's not safe because you just get shamed.
10:13
Emma: So this is what I learned, and it got imprinted very deeply in my psyche.
10:18
Cassandra: Yeah, well, I appreciate your clarification.
10:20
Cassandra: Um, that you gave also my listeners some clarification about that and helped them to understand why they are um feeling shame or have this shame voice that we're talking about.
10:33
Cassandra: But my next question is now, okay, all of that occurred, but yet you still went and you studied law and international human rights.
11:06
Cassandra: What what how did you what what was it about that that you transitioned to?
11:13
Cassandra: Okay, so you left home or whatever, and you decided that you were gonna going to um study law.
11:23
Emma: Well, I studied languages first, and then I thought, you know, I had this whole idea, it's it's coming again coming from the shame place.
11:29
Emma: I have to constantly prove that I'm enough.
11:31
Emma: So that's the real key.
11:33
Emma: So I constantly want I wanted to help the world to do something big in order to feel like I was enough.
11:39
Emma: So this is why I came into the human rights law world and studied law.
11:44
Emma: That was what was driving it.
11:46
Emma: It was it was shame, it was an internalized shame.
11:49
Emma: And I did, you know, connect with people who were oppressed, and I can see now that that was kind of trauma bonding because I could relate to them because I had been silently kind of scapegoated in my own system, but it was something that I wasn't aware of at the time.
12:05
Emma: So I after after I completed that, I studied law, and then I realized, oh my god, that this just isn't for me.
12:12
Emma: I don't even want to do it, and it doesn't feel aligned.
12:15
Emma: So this is why this is why I left it and I really started my healing journey, if you like, in earnest.
12:22
Emma: But until I started to addressing these root to address these root causes, it was like uh you know, trying to trying to feng shui the furniture when the house is on fire, you know, until I started addressing these root-level family dysfunctions and you know, distancing myself from that toxicity in order so that I could start healing, nothing was really shifting in my life, if that makes sense.
12:46
Cassandra: But Emma, how long were you in that field law in in human rights?
12:52
Cassandra: Because you you you categorize it as a slow death.
12:56
Cassandra: So, how long were you doing that?
12:57
Cassandra: How long were you in that that industry?
13:00
Emma: Well, I was I was studying it and I did a master's degree, so but yeah, there were at least three years, you know, and uh then also, you know, I went out and did field research and stuff like this.
13:12
Emma: Okay.
13:12
Emma: So, you know, we're talking we're talking three years, and it was um, yeah, it was very and I was also I did I did my law part-time, so was working in job that really wasn't aligned, so it was very, very soul destroying in a lot of different ways.
13:27
Emma: And I can see now when I look back, I was very, very unhappy.
13:30
Emma: Okay.
13:31
Emma: I just thought I just thought it was normal to be unhappy from a young age.
13:35
Emma: I thought it was normal to have a suicidal ideation from from being from a young age, but that's not the case, right?
13:43
Cassandra: Right.
13:43
Cassandra: So, so yeah, so now I understand why you called it a slow death, even though you were in it for three years.
13:50
Cassandra: And I just wanted to highlight that because I do have listeners that are in um industries working, and they're not happy, you know, they're they're they're stuck.
14:01
Cassandra: And and it was something about you that said, you know what, I can't do this anymore.
14:06
Cassandra: What and and so what made you pivot and say I I can't I can't do it anymore?
14:13
Cassandra: Um, if I'm not understanding, you did not have a job when you decided you didn't want to do that anymore.
14:21
Cassandra: Is that true?
14:22
Emma: Yeah, yeah.
14:23
Emma: I had a complete quarter life crisis, you know.
14:25
Emma: It was complete, I had nothing.
14:27
Emma: It's like a midlife crisis, but earlier.
14:30
Emma: So it's pretty terrifying.
14:33
Emma: And no, I didn't have a job, I was just like um trying to figure it all out, you know, and trying to trying to, but I knew that what I was trying to do didn't make me happy, and I found yoga and healing, and these things really made sense for me.
14:49
Emma: Sure.
14:49
Emma: And then I got all excited about that, and then I spoke to my mother, and instead of getting any kind of support or backup on that, she gave me a 40-minute lecture about why that was impossible, why I could never do that, and it just crushed my soul again.
15:06
Cassandra: Wow, but but but when you were doing the yoga, the therapy, you you you were kind of in a like a self-discovery mode.
15:15
Cassandra: It was something you said, you even even doing that, you felt stuck.
15:20
Emma: Yeah, because uh I recognize this is what I want to do.
15:24
Emma: And I started, you know, trying to do it as a business, but I kept on running up against these self-sabotage, I would be doing all the right things.
15:32
Emma: I spent so much money, I don't even want to think about on all these courses and amazing coaching programs.
15:38
Emma: And I would do all the things and then like not get the results.
15:43
Emma: So I was like, yeah, I'm the problem, you know, what's going on here?
15:47
Emma: I'm doing everything right, but not getting not getting anything out of it, which is kind, which was kind of the story of my life at that stuff at that time.
15:55
Emma: So in order to to get things moving, I had to I had to look at the template, which was my upbringing, and you know, this this scapegoating pattern, this shame pattern that I had internalized, that really was the bedrock for all this self-sabotage and silent, you know, silent sabotage and shaming that really kept me going round in circles and burning myself out and not moving forward at all.
16:23
Emma: So doing all of this, your your therapy, your yoga, probably journaling and all that, you said that you just a deeper, you discovered the deeper truth, right?
16:34
Emma: What was the deeper truth?
16:36
Emma: What was that about?
16:37
Emma: Unpack that.
16:38
Emma: The the deeper truth is that my family was was toxic.
16:42
Emma: Like I said, all the all the all this time I thought it was just me who had the problem because everyone else in my family, I thought they were fine.
16:50
Emma: But uh when I was when I realized, you know, how abnormal, how my family were never able to mirror me emotionally, and how my needs weren't met, and it wasn't even wasn't even not about meeting my needs.
17:04
Emma: I was actually scapegoated within the family system, which caused me to internalize all this shame.
17:10
Emma: That was really the thing that kind of helped me recognize that no, I'm not the problem here.
17:15
Emma: I was, and the scapegoat is also often the one who can see it's often the sensitive child within the system who can kind of see the truth of how dysfunctional things are.
17:26
Emma: And the parent obviously that's a threat to the system, so that person gets shut down and very often gets scapegoated in order to keep it within their little box and to keep playing small.
17:38
Emma: So when I realized that was kind of the template for my life, I was able to start dismantling it and dismantle this shame voice that I had internalized from the inside out because it's one thing to get out of the family, but it's quite another to get the family dysfunction out of you, right?
17:56
Cassandra: So listen, what is a narcissist?
17:59
Cassandra: What is that?
18:00
Cassandra: I mean lately I've been hearing that term a whole lot.
18:03
Cassandra: So what would explain what that is?
18:06
Cassandra: What this is a system of control that ran you from the inside out, right?
18:12
Emma: So yeah, so narcissists are people who are very um very self-serving and they might appear very charismatic, but they're very shaming.
18:22
Emma: They come with you, they gaslight you.
18:25
Emma: That means they make you question your reality so something will happen.
18:29
Emma: Um, I'll ask you something, and then I'll say, Oh no, that didn't happen.
18:33
Emma: You're just imagining that.
18:34
Emma: So then you're like, Oh my god, what's wrong with my memory?
18:37
Emma: You start questioning your judgment, they minimize you a lot, they might love bomb you and say, Oh, you're great, and then tear you down, start shaming you.
18:46
Emma: They might also move the goalposts, like uh, you know, say, okay, once we get to that, then once you get there, then you'll be good enough.
18:54
Emma: And then once you get there, you know, it's you're still not good enough.
18:58
Emma: So these these are these this is it's um narcissists.
19:02
Emma: There, there's so many out there in the world because we live in a very narcissistic world.
19:06
Emma: Yeah.
19:07
Emma: So the narcissists are everywhere, they can be very charismatic, and we we we internalize that because it's everywhere.
19:20
Emma: This shame, shame voice.
19:22
Emma: What happens is that in order to cope in this shaming world, we kind of like because shame it's like a sword and a shield, right?
19:31
Emma: So we kind of we can use it to attack people, but we also think okay, if I shame myself first, then it won't hurt so much when other people shame me.
19:40
Emma: And that's that's what happens, that's how we internalize shame.
19:44
Emma: We kind of think we can feed them to the punch, and that's why that's why where so many people they internalize all these deals.
19:52
Emma: I'm a failure, I'm no good, I'm not bad.
19:54
Emma: We think if I just say that to myself, then it won't be people won't be able to shame me, but yeah, it just attracts more and more shame because you become kind of you become you become a shame magnet or a narcissist magnet because the narcissists outside, people who want to shame you, they need that inner hook, and this is the inner narcissist.
20:18
Emma: So, for example, if I come up to you, Cassandra, and say, Your purple hair is so ugly, it's so you're gonna be like, Who is this woman?
20:26
Emma: She's crazy, right?
20:27
Emma: Right.
20:28
Emma: So, in order in order for you to experience shame from an insult or a comment like that, you need to have this voice inside that says, Oh, my nose is really big, or maybe I am a failure.
20:39
Emma: Then you'll experience shame.
20:42
Emma: So, what I realized is the way to liberate ourselves from shame.
20:46
Emma: To reclaim our shameless, if you like, is to exercise this shame voice that we've internalized.
20:53
Emma: I call it the inner narcissist because it takes every single box of the narcissist outside.
20:59
Emma: It does all the things that a narcissist does, but it's living rent-free inside our own head, inside our own bodies.
21:06
Cassandra: So, okay, so talk was that like unconscious trauma, right?
21:11
Cassandra: Do we call that an unconscious trauma?
21:14
Cassandra: So yeah, so listen, so what are some of the tools to break that cycle that has been running your life?
21:24
Cassandra: What are some of those tools?
21:27
Emma: Well, I do have a five-step process that I can that I can take people through.
21:31
Emma: But really, the first thing is to recognize that this voice, we've been taught to think that this voice, and you know, common wisdom will tell you that shame is normal and natural and good for you.
21:44
Emma: You know, this is what we're told.
21:45
Emma: Even people like Brene Brown says that if you don't experience shame, that means you're a psychopath.
21:51
Emma: So we're kind of brainwashed by also by language, you know, we call when like that word shameless.
21:57
Emma: Every every other word that ends in L E S in the English language, it means you're free of that thing.
22:03
Emma: But actually, people who we call shameless are just behaving in ways that we consider wrong or bad or unacceptable, right?
22:11
Emma: Right.
22:11
Emma: So it's not approved.
22:13
Emma: And basically, these people are not free of shame who are doing these things.
22:17
Emma: I don't know, taking off their clothes, or they're they're acting from repressed shame more often than not.
22:23
Emma: Are you know, are also people who are acting, people being totally authentic, they're often called shameless because it's triggering for people who are acting from this shame mask, if that makes sense.
22:37
Emma: So I have the system that I have is B-R-E-A-K break, right?
22:41
Emma: So first one, B, it means when this shaming and it comes like a shame attack, you know, it heats your body, it makes you shrink, it like takes you over.
22:50
Emma: It's like a it's like a bodily hijack.
22:53
Emma: But first you've got to recognize when the shame attacks that this isn't your voice, that it's like a magic spell, it's a pattern, it's a trance state that you've been under.
23:03
Emma: So when you catch it, you interrupt it, and you name it, recognize that it's a trance, that automatically disrupts the loop instantly.
23:11
Emma: That's the that's the the B stands for break the break.
23:17
Cassandra: Okay.
23:17
Emma: Break break the trance, yeah.
23:19
Emma: Okay, then you go on to R, which is refuse to engage.
23:23
Emma: And this is the thing with the narcissists outside, we're told, and Dr.
23:28
Emma: Ramani, who's a narcissist expert, she talks about don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, and don't personalize deep.
23:35
Emma: And we've got to do that with the voice inside, because when we argue or defend, we give it more, it's called narcissistic supply.
23:43
Emma: It gives it more rope to kind of get involved and get us, you know, caught up in it.
23:49
Emma: So we gotta stop that.
23:50
Emma: Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain.
23:53
Emma: Just say simply, not today, it's not happening.
23:56
Emma: Okay, then you want E, which is expose the lie.
24:00
Emma: So call out the shame-based programming, you know, that you have a big butt or whatever the whatever the voice is saying, you know, that you're failure.
24:09
Emma: This is control.
24:10
Emma: This is not your story.
24:12
Emma: That voice is not your friend, it's not your inner wisdom, it's not time trying to protect you, it's actually trying to kill you, okay?
24:18
Emma: Um when you speak it, you disarm its power.
24:21
Emma: It's trying to keep you small, but we're gas-lit by society to believe that this is some kind of protector, and that's absolutely not the case.
24:29
Emma: It's like the narcissist that punches you in the face or tells you you can never do that, you can never be a run a podcast, and then tells you that they're trying to do that to protect you.
24:39
Emma: No, they're trying to protect themselves, it's not, it's never about you, right?
24:44
Emma: Right, right.
24:45
Emma: Oh, then you go on to E, recognize that it's call out the shame-based programming, recognize that it's control, and speak the truth.
24:56
Emma: Then you go to A, which is anchor in the truth.
25:00
Emma: You come back to your body because when shame takes over, it uh takes you out of your body.
25:05
Emma: It's like, whoa, it you you contract.
25:08
Emma: So come back to your body, feel your breath, feel your feet, say your name, the year, and just remind your nervous system that you're safe, that you're sovereign, and that you're still here, you know, because shame like comes up comes in like an alien invader, and then you want to kick it off, kick it out, okay?
25:28
Emma: Shake it off, stomp it out, say it, say it out loud, this isn't mine, and just refuse to take it in.
25:35
Emma: So this is the break system, and obviously it takes a bit of practice because if you've been practicing dancing for the shame voice, perform performing for it or arguing and defending yourself from it, you will have given that voice is called narcissistic supply.
25:52
Emma: That's uh over 20, 30, 40 years.
25:55
Emma: That's a lot of growth that it's already got, that's a lot of momentum that it's already got, and to break that momentum takes a little bit of work.
26:03
Emma: But this this definitely does work.
26:05
Emma: And the real key is to recognize that the voice is not you.
26:09
Emma: This shame voice, it's not you, it's not your friend, it's not a wounded, wounded part, it's like a parasite.
26:16
Emma: And if you have a parasite in your gut, you don't send it love, oh poor thing, oh my god, you're wounded.
26:22
Emma: Let's just try to survive.
26:24
Emma: No, but we're told to do that with this narcissist that's living inside our brain and extracting our power, our energy, our life force from us, you know.
26:34
Emma: But get the thing out, get the thing out, recognize that it's not you, you don't owe it anything, you don't owe it your energy.
26:41
Emma: It's already taken so much of your energy, your life force away, and really you get to reclaim your power, right?
26:49
Cassandra: So, okay, so we talked about break, like the the B for break, and the aura is um to refuse the E is refuse to engage, yeah.
26:59
Cassandra: Right, refuse to engage, and the um the escape was the E.
27:05
Cassandra: Escape from it, right?
27:07
Cassandra: And the A is the anchor.
27:11
Emma: Yeah, so the E is expose the lie, expose the lie.
27:15
Emma: Expose the lie.
27:16
Emma: So call out the shame-based programming, okay.
27:19
Emma: Recognize that it's control, A is anchor, anchor in your body, come back to your body, and K is kick it out.
27:26
Emma: So it's really about getting into your body and not taking this thing in.
27:32
Emma: That's in a nutshell, that's what it is.
27:34
Emma: Recognize that it's not you, you don't have to take it on.
27:38
Emma: It's like a light bulb, it has no power without your energy, without your life force.
27:43
Emma: So when you cut it off, it's got nothing.
27:46
Cassandra: Right.
27:47
Cassandra: And as you indicated, Emma, that it's gonna take time, you know.
27:51
Cassandra: This is practice, practice, right?
27:53
Cassandra: So, in your program, how long, how how much time does it take for your clients?
28:02
Emma: Well, I have I have a five-week program that because we're working in a group, so really accelerates the time if you're working in a group and you have that kind of support.
28:11
Emma: So my system is a is a five-week program, but you can always you know get better at it, you can always get strengthen it, strengthen your own power.
28:21
Emma: But the key is to disarm this shame voice, this narcissist that we've internalized, and then we become immune.
28:28
Emma: The more we exercise this demon, if you want, the more like an exorcism.
28:33
Emma: We we become impervious to shaming from the outside, we we become unshamable, we become truly shameless.
28:40
Emma: And I'm all about my program is called Reclaim Your Shameless because we women need to live shamelessly, everyone actually needs to live shamelessly.
28:49
Emma: This idea that shameless is a bad thing, it's a lie, it's a gaslight, we do not need the shame.
28:57
Emma: Shame is a cultural imposition, it's a cultural implant in order to keep everybody in their tiny box and keep doing what the what society wants them to do and not shining their light.
29:09
Emma: And it's time for us to break out now because this this narcissistic system is everywhere, and it's only going to change.
29:17
Emma: It's not gonna change from the top down, right?
29:20
Emma: That's not gonna happen, but it's gonna change from the bottom up.
29:23
Emma: Every individual really recognizing, retaking, taking back their power and being that lighthouse for other people.
29:30
Emma: Because most people they don't have anyone around them who's living truly shamelessly, in the sense that I'm a talk about shamelessness.
29:36
Emma: So you can model that for them, and they're like, Wow, look at Cassandra, she's living authentically, she's truly being her.
29:44
Emma: Wow, she has got no shame, no shame in very in the positive sense of the word, obviously.
29:50
Emma: And you know, be just being truly authentic to who she is, and then other people it gives people permission to do that too, because most people especially in the western world, most families are extremely dysfunctional.
30:04
Emma: They estimate that about 80% of families are dysfunctional and have these kind of narcissistic systems kind of going, and it's it's everywhere.
30:14
Emma: This shaming is everywhere, it's in advertising, it's on social media.
30:18
Emma: So if we disconnect that and reclaim our shameless, we we become super empowered to go out there in the world and just live our best life, right?
30:28
Cassandra: Right, and you indicated trauma.
30:30
Cassandra: I like when you said trauma is a replay through perfection, people pleasing, overwork, self-sabotage that looked like procrastination or burnout.
30:46
Emma: Yeah, all of these things, if you can trace them back to shame, imposter syndrome, shaming, right?
30:51
Emma: The shaming voice, you're not enough, you can't do that, you're not good enough.
30:55
Emma: That's shame.
30:56
Emma: Shame is the undercurrent.
30:58
Emma: When you self-sabotage, it's shame.
31:01
Emma: You don't feel like you deserve that, you don't feel like you can have that thing, so you don't let yourself get there, or you stroke you burn yourself out and then yeah, and then crash.
31:11
Emma: That again, this is shame, procrastination.
31:13
Emma: It's shame.
31:14
Emma: These things are symptoms, not the root cause.
31:17
Emma: So this is the thing.
31:19
Emma: Most people out there they're talking about self-sabotage as if it's the cause, and it's not.
31:23
Emma: The cause is the shaming, the cause is the shame that we've internalized.
31:28
Emma: And when we liberate ourselves of that, we we stop with the self-sabotage, we just allow ourselves to elevate and shine, and we stop putting the brakes on our own life.
31:39
Cassandra: Yeah, I like your perspective because let's let's I want to uh unpack a little bit about procrastinators and people pleasing and and how shame relates to that.
31:51
Cassandra: So is the people pleasing?
31:54
Cassandra: I want them to like me.
31:55
Cassandra: Yes.
31:56
Cassandra: Yeah, and how does shame play into that?
32:00
Cassandra: Because I'm ashamed if they don't like you.
32:04
Emma: Yeah, so if you don't like yourself, if you feel like you're lacking that validation, you need validation from the outside.
32:10
Emma: Again, this is shaming.
32:11
Emma: And shame the the emotion.
32:13
Emma: Well, it's not an emotion, like I said, it's much more than that.
32:16
Emma: It's uh it invalidates you, it's invalidating.
32:19
Emma: It says you're not good enough, you're unworthy, it makes you shrink.
32:23
Emma: So when we feel that we need to find another source, we need to find a boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, whatever, somebody who's gonna tell us that you're okay, you're good, you can tell me rather than giving that validation to ourselves.
32:38
Emma: And again, it's not the solution because those people don't stick around.
32:42
Emma: What happens if they go?
32:43
Emma: And then you're left with you've still got the shame running in your life.
32:46
Emma: You've got to liberate yourself from shame.
32:48
Emma: That's the only real solution that's gonna get you out of this spiral.
32:53
Emma: And shame is a spiral that takes you to hell, it takes you right to hell.
32:58
Emma: Nobody would commit suicide without this shame voice, you know.
33:02
Emma: No matter what's going on in your life, you need that voice in your head that whispers, oh, there's no point anymore.
33:08
Emma: You might as well not hear in order for you to commit to commit that final act, you know, self-destruction.
33:14
Emma: That shame voice is the key to everything.
33:18
Emma: Like people coming with their shame, they need to have the they need to have the lock.
33:22
Emma: You know, they're coming with the key of shame, they need to have the little hook to get into.
33:26
Emma: When we when we get rid of that, when we get rid of that hook, we cannot be hooked into shame.
33:31
Emma: We'll just think, my god, these people are crazy.
33:33
Cassandra: Okay, let me let me run this by you because a lot of my listeners, you know, like I indicated, they're stuck, you know, and they know some of them know what it is, what it looks like to live their best life on their term, but they're stuck, or they're procrastinating on what it is that they need to do.
33:51
Cassandra: What how does shame apply to the procrastination?
33:55
Cassandra: Because a lot of listeners procrastinate.
33:58
Emma: Yeah, yeah.
33:59
Emma: Again, procrastination is itself sabotage, and it's separating from this fear of what if I get successful, I don't really deserve it, or what will happen?
34:09
Emma: Something bad will happen if I go there.
34:11
Emma: So your system kind of holds you back and keeps you safe.
34:15
Emma: So procrastination again, it's it's shame at its root.
34:19
Emma: If you're if you don't have shame, you don't procrastinate because you're like, wow, I'm I'm fantastic, I'm gonna share myself with the world.
34:27
Emma: You know, there's no holding yourself back.
34:29
Emma: Shame are the shackles that hold us back, that is the real root cause.
34:34
Cassandra: Okay, okay, because I I'm gonna share this and then we're gonna talk about um how my listeners could get in touch with you.
34:42
Cassandra: I was talking to a friend the other day, and I told her that I wasn't getting anything done.
34:48
Cassandra: And she's like, Well, why?
34:50
Cassandra: I said, Because I'm procrastinating, and she said, Well, why are you doing that?
34:53
Cassandra: I'm like, I don't know.
34:54
Cassandra: You know, I'm sitting here wanting the phone to ring so I could talk to somebody.
34:58
Cassandra: I'm waiting for somebody to pass by the window, you know, so that it can distract me for what it is that I have to do.
35:05
Cassandra: And she's like, Hmm, interesting.
35:07
Cassandra: So she called me back and she said, You know what?
35:09
Cassandra: I was procrastinating today.
35:11
Cassandra: I'm like, Yeah.
35:12
Cassandra: So I I guess I'm trying to figure out how that shame played a part in my procrastination, is I didn't want to, I was just stalling and distracted and didn't want to focus on what it was that I had to focus on because I don't know why.
35:29
Emma: So it's uh it's it's often more often.
35:33
Emma: I mean, I work with people and take through them very specific when they have specific challenges like that.
35:38
Emma: But uh very often it's not failure that people fear because people often feel like they're already a failure, right?
35:45
Emma: But what people are afraid of is success.
35:48
Emma: You know, what'll happen if I get too big?
35:51
Emma: What if the phone rings all the time?
35:53
Emma: What if uh what if I don't I won't have time for my kids for the things I want to do?
35:57
Emma: I'll lose my freedom.
35:58
Emma: So it's safer just to stay where I am, you know.
36:02
Emma: And the shame voice is just stay where you are and just hold back a little bit.
36:06
Emma: That's not safe to do that.
36:07
Emma: And again, that's that's the shaming voice that says you're not capable of it or that you can't have it.
36:13
Emma: So it's uh it's uh it's slightly, it's usually usually that is the the root cause of why we procrastinate.
36:20
Emma: Um it can always be traced back to shame in one form or another.
36:24
Emma: Okay, okay, okay.
36:27
Cassandra: Well, wow, Emma, I'm loving your perspectives.
36:29
Cassandra: Listen, let my tell my listeners how they can get in touch with you.
36:35
Emma: Yeah, I am everywhere.
36:37
Emma: On you can find me on so on the medias, on on Instagram, I am trauma.matrix, also the YouTube channel, Trauma Matrix, and my sub stack is also called Trauma Matrix.
36:48
Emma: And I have a free gift for you guys.
36:50
Emma: So if you are listening and you're thinking, wow, this is interesting, I think I have this.
36:55
Emma: Maybe you're self-identifying.
36:57
Emma: Wow, I've got this crazy voice, shame voice in my head.
37:00
Emma: The next step that I would suggest, I have a free guide for you guys.
37:04
Emma: It's called Five Signs That It's Time to Break Up With Inner Narcissist.
37:09
Emma: And it also gives you so it gives you those five signs and also you with strategies of how to break free from this from this narcissist you've internalized.
37:18
Emma: And this is the key to freedom, it's the key to the kingdom, to reclaiming your authentic version, the true version of you that doesn't shame yourself or put yourself down or hold yourself back.
37:29
Emma: And that is, if you want to check that out, it's at tinyurl.com forward slash not today, narc, not today, n arc.
37:38
Emma: So check that out if this conversation is resonating for you, or send me send me a DM.
37:46
Emma: I would love to know what you found um inspiring or interesting from this conversation.
37:52
Cassandra: Right.
37:52
Cassandra: And listeners, when you do send her a DM, let her know that you heard her on the Is Your Way in Your Way podcast.
38:01
Cassandra: And I am so grateful.
38:03
Cassandra: I'm actually going to do the the five signs and see see where I am.
38:08
Cassandra: Do I need to break up what my inner narcissist said?
38:12
Cassandra: Okay, so thank you for that.
38:14
Cassandra: Um, free is always good.
38:17
Cassandra: Uh, so there's no excuse not to use that.
38:20
Cassandra: And Emma, I want to thank you.
38:24
Cassandra: My listeners are grateful for this because they you're giving them different perspectives.
38:31
Cassandra: And I'm certain there are many listeners that never correlated what's going on with them to shame.
38:38
Cassandra: So I appreciate that modality that you're using, the the five, the break, and all of that to help individuals start using their voice and not the shame voice.
38:52
Cassandra: Yeah.
38:53
Cassandra: Okay.
38:54
Emma: And yeah, just to say one more thing: the shame is not you.
38:58
Emma: It's not you.
38:59
Emma: It's it feels like it's you, but it's not.
39:02
Emma: It's a it's an implant, it's always about control, and you don't need it to be who you are, to be your best version.
39:09
Emma: That is a complete lie, and it's time for you to reclaim your true authentic self.
39:14
Emma: And you do that by breaking up with shame once and for all.
39:18
Cassandra: Wow, that's well said.
39:19
Cassandra: Thank you so much, Emma.
39:21
Cassandra: And my listeners out there, if you believe that this podcast will be a blessing to someone that you know, please share it with them.
39:33
Cassandra: And also, uh, as I always say, bye for now.
39:38
Cassandra: God bless you, and I'll see you next week.
39:43
Cassandra: Again, Emma, thank you so much.
39:46
Cassandra: Thanks for having me, Sandra.