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Why don't men like counseling? · Head Shrink Inc.

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  SPEAKER_02: On this episode of Head Shrink Inc., we're going to talk about why men don't like counseling.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, welcome to the show.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is another episode of Head Shrink Inc.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: with Doc David.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in the past, we've had Dan Bates here with us.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: He's another therapist that I work with and that he's my bro, I tell everyone.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: But um he has a family and we don't live nearby.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so we try to podcast together when we can, but there's gonna be times that we aren't able to podcast together.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I'm doing this podcast solo today.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna talk about a um common issue that I run into at least because I'm you know in the counseling field.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: I've been doing counseling for 16 years for those of you that haven't followed this podcast before.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um I work with teens, families, um, parents on parenting, uh, couples on relationships, and and premarital couples um that are dating.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I do individual work sometimes, but I I mean to be truthful, I often find that to be um not as riveting as working with large groups of people where you can help lots of people rather than an individual.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so one of the things I often run into uh for some reason it's it's fairly stereotypical that women seem to very easily, generally speaking, come into the counseling office.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: They're able to make the phone call, make the appointment, show up, um have a good conversation, and then you know, plan for we come to the end of our conversation and then plan for another appointment.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Inevitably, if it's a if it's a woman that has a you know significant other in their life, they talk about how their significant other other, usually a guy um doesn't like to go to counseling.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: And that's so that's that's a theme that I've heard, and I know Dan has heard that theme as well over the years.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And inevitably, when I do get a phone call about counseling, um, like for marriage counseling, it's usually the the female in the relationship that's calling to set up the counseling.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when guys call me for counseling, it's usually because they're desperate, something's about to happen in their marriage, and um they've been threatened.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to leave if you don't call a counselor.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of my experience that I've had when men call me generally.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I've thought about that, and I, you know, I've thought there was there's some reasons men typically don't like counseling.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm painting a broad brush, um, and you know, for each man it's gonna be specific to that person.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: But the the things that I'm gonna talk about today are things that I've s heard as I've talked with um wives and I've talked with husbands about kind of the challenges in coming to counseling.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So there's gonna be a couple things I want to just run through and and uh give you an idea of what they tend to be.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: So if you are a guy that's potentially thinking about going to counseling, but you you keep hesitating, you're not alone.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's other men throughout the world that often are you know having a challenge and going to counseling.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the biggies is um men usually don't like to feel vulnerable.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, men like to um have people see that they know what they're doing, that they know how to do life, that they're kind of an expert in what they're doing.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so feeling vulnerable is something that men um absolutely hate.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now, again, I'm you have to remember with all of these, I'm stereotyping, and there's gonna be some men that don't mind feeling vulnerable.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but typically in my experience, men don't like to feel vulnerable.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a societal thing.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's something that at least in America, men are raised with from you know childhood to be to suck it up, you need to do it on your own, be a man, and and and that message implies um conquering stuff on your own.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't imply um getting support, getting outside support when you're facing a challenge.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you if you think about a lot of the the stories that we hear that are stories of bravery and courage, and stories that are like, wow, look at that guy, they tend to be a person that did something on their own really well, or what it was really amazing to see what they did.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so that again implies, you know, if you can do something on your own and you can do it well, you are an amazing, amazing person.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you can't do something on your own and you can't do it well, well, you've got problems, and we're not not really gonna want to talk to you.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I think American society has created a false belief that men need to be tough.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is a there's room for toughness, but I also think there is room for vulnerability.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I, as a father of six daughters, um have my vulnerability and tenderness and compassion um challenged every day.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's I'm glad I'm married to the woman that I'm married to because she's one of the most compassionate, understanding women that I know.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so she um helps me with that with my daughters.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um the this another reason that I think men don't like counseling is it kind of goes along with that feeling vulnerable, is that counseling often feels like failure.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and like I said earlier, I'll get phone calls from men who are desperate.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I need help because my wife said if I don't get this help, she's walking out the door.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so, therefore, if wife didn't say you need to get help, the guy would have never called me.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: So counseling often feels like failure because men like to accomplish things.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: We like to say, Hey, look what I did, look at this house I built, look at this um fence I built.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: They want people to be proud of their accomplishments.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: So when a marriage starts to break down or when a relationship starts to break down, they it it I mean it inevitably feels like a failure.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's hard to ask again for help um from somebody that is trained to help in relationships.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um when I run into a guy like that, I I often kind of frame it in I ask them what they do, and so you know, well, I'm a house builder or I'm a engineer or I'm this or that, and I often frame it in terms of um, you know, if I was looking for an expertise in certain a certain area, if I needed to know how to drive a semi-truck, I couldn't do it on my own.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't just go out and start.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: I could try, but I probably apparently semi-trucks have six gears.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know that, and they have air brakes and they have all these buttons that you need to push.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would I could maybe drive it a little ways, but I would be horrible at it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would turn to somebody who is an expert in the trucking industry or building house industry or what have you, and ask them for help to give me some guidance.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's not exactly the same as coming to me and asking for help, but it is the same in the fact that I this is what I'm trained to do, this is what therapists and counselors and psychologists are trained in.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: They're trained in to help relationships.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so that's why I I try to normalize it for men when they come and talk to me about it and say, hey, it's it's okay to not know how to do relationship.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: There's no manual on it, there's no kind of study book that you can take, there's no college courses that you can take that um can help you in parenting or or you know male-female relationships.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's when you're in it and doing it, that's usually when you when you learn.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, another reason that men don't like counseling is because they're feeling forced by their partners to go.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a lot of the the calls that I end up getting.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um are men, when it is men, like I've said before, it's men who have come to the point where they're kind of forced to go and go to counseling.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and I I appreciate that and I understand that because to me what it shows is it shows that they're willing to do whatever they need to do to work on this relationship that they're in.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I'm I'm appreciative of the fact that okay, I have a willing participant now who's who's ready and willing to start trying to figure out what's going on in their relationship.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so people in general don't like to feel controlled or forced by partners, but I think men in particular also I mean I I I don't know, I think it's a a societal thing again where um there's those traditional roles of that have permeated our society from probably the 40s and the 50s and earlier on, where men are in charge of the house.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, men are out supposed to be out working and bringing home the money.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh women uh tend to stay home, and that's very traditional.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that um society is trying to go away for that, but for away from that, but I think some of that is still permeates um kind of in the unconscious of couples when they think about relationships.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um another thing, and and I think this is not just for men, but I think it's it could be for all people, is that change is hard.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um when you are married 20 years and you kind of have a set way of doing things with your spouse, and then all of a sudden your spouse has learned to speak up and says, I don't like how we've been doing things for all these years, and we need to change it.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Change is hard, especially when you are shocked by a spouse that is I mean, for 20 years you think, Oh, I thought you liked this thing, or I thought you liked how we had this communication style, and then you find out that your spouse doesn't, it could really rock your world.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: You could really think, who am I married to?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: And why am I why did I marry it?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: Have they been lying to me all these years?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so change is hard, I think, for anybody, but I think it's that that's another reason or another excuse why men fear to go into the counseling room.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because typically, when you go into the counseling room, um some type of change is supposed to take place.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um you're not supposed to go there and hope that your spouse just does all the changing.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: You're usually supposed to go there and it's expected that you're going to kind of gain some insight and learn, okay, maybe I can change this about myself a little bit.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um that that brings us to another conversation where for another podcast about the kind of counselor that you get, because not every counselor is going to be a good fit for the couple or the individual or the family that goes to see them.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think I've heard several families and and individuals and and couples that come to me that talk poorly about past therapists that they've seen.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: But the problem is that past therapist typically doesn't know that it wasn't a good fit.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm sure that in my years of counseling that there have been people that thought, eh, that counselor is not so good.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, there I I'll relay this story.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Just met with a couple probably four weeks ago for the first time, and I'm sitting there having you know discussion with them about kind of their challenges.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: And typically, you know, we we end the session and then we talk about planning for another session.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I always open it up, I say, hey, you know, if if you let me know if you want to meet again, I'm there's no pressure here.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to meet, um let me know.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Give me a couple, you know, I'll give you a couple days and you can call me back.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and usually when I have that conversation, um, the people reschedule with me right after the session.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: This couple didn't, and I haven't heard from them since.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So um I can only imagine what stories they're telling to the next therapist that they meet with.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now I have my idea on why they probably didn't uh call me back.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I might have been pushing uh something a little bit too much that they didn't feel comfortable with, uh, but who knows?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: So getting the right counselor is important, and it's like I often say it's like trying out used cars.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um you need to ask lots of questions, and there it's not a magical setting.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: You need to ask lots of questions and um be okay with saying no.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: Be okay with thinking, you know, you're not a good fit, let's move on to the next one.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um another reason that men often are challenged in going to a counseling room is that um some men believe that they have to be in control, can in control of spouse, marriage, life, work, kids, any number of things.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so going into a a counseling room um can impact the person in several ways that feel like they have to be in control.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're going into this room where they're having to get up give up control to this perfect stranger.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um they're having to their their wife is going to be telling things about them to this perfect stranger.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um this perfect stranger is going to be taking money from them at the end of the session.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the perfect stranger is gonna be writing notes about them.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so going to counseling puts a person out of control.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so a man that likes to be in control, that is like gonna be one of the last places they they want to be.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I would suggest that if if you are a control person and uh you have people in your life that are telling you you are a micromanager, you are controlling too many things.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Counseling might actually be the best thing for you.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because it's one place where you t if you have a good therapist that you're working with, um, they're not gonna let you be in control.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: They're gonna say, hey, they're gonna set up some clear boundaries for you.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: And again, another podcast where you can talk about boundaries, um they're gonna let you know, hey, this is acceptable, this is not, these are the times that I can meet, these are the times I can't meet, this is how much I need to be paid, this is when I need to be paid, and hopefully you get a therapist like that that's gonna give you clear instructions and and uh give you clear boundaries on things so there's no fuzziness.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think sometimes therapists tend to be a little bit fuzzy, and so then they don't give clear instruction to um the the client, and so then there's some kind of muddy waters that happen, and and I've seen um relationships happen where you know a client goes to a therapist and then they friend each other on Facebook and then their lives get kind of intertwined, but the therapist is still seeing um the their client and still providing counseling.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: That is a big no-no in my book.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: That creates um dual relationships, it creates um broken boundaries.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you have a therapist that's like that, I'm gonna strongly suggest that you break up with that therapist because there needs to be some kind of clinical aspect or there needs to be a professional aspect to your relationship.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you're connected with people that you know, if you are a client and you're connected with your therapist on Instagram and Facebook in a non-professional way, I'm gonna suggest that that's not appropriate.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, another podcast for another day.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh one of the things that I encourage people to do, so there's all these there's there could be any number of other reasons that men tend to not like counseling, but these are some biggies that I've seen in in um when I've interacted with men and women and couples that I've worked with.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the things that I think you can do, and this is this is an appeal to people before they're married, is premarital counseling.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: That is a great place to figure out how one each of you feel about control, how do you feel about failure, how do you feel about being forced by your partner to do something?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you feel forced by your partner to do something?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel about change?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh premarital counseling is a great place to kind of feel the waters out for this person that you are starting to fall in love with.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if you go to premarital counseling and and and you're finding some real challenges coming up, I mean, that's the place to talk about them.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I really believe that if you talk about it before marriage, it's gonna be easier to talk about it after marriage.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um and a lot of one of the things that you you know, and this is for the female of the species, and again, I'm stereotyping here, but it's my experience, is that women tend to be able to talk about feelings often a little bit easier than men talk about things.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so one of my encouragements to to women is when they have a uh a guy in their life that they're struggling with in regards to feelings and kind of communication and things like that, is if you are if you're willing, um when a feeling word comes up or when your husband or significant other is describing something to you, attach a feeling word to it and help him.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um a lot of times we don't view the a lot of times what I've seen is that um in like the communication world, a couple says we just don't communicate well.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, you can actually help your partner learn to communicate well, you can actually help your partner learn to talk about his feelings a little bit more easy.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Now a counselor can do that, but I I think you as the partner, whether it's you're the husband or the wife, and you know the challenge that your husband or wife have, you because you love them and because you want to make life easier for them, you can actually help them by let's say talking about bringing up a feeling word and saying, How does that make you feel?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_02: And helping them work through this feeling.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now, the challenge there is often um the person you can't do it because usually there's some type of argument or hurt or something that has come up which makes it difficult for the other person to help their spouse work through this issue, whatever it is.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why my my job exists to help people do that.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are not in a place where um there's there's conflict or passion getting in the way of being able to communicate well, I think it's a great opportunity for spouses and it can bring them closer and more intimate and make them more intimate when they're able to have a good conversation and help one another um through a difficult uh conversation or help one another in identifying certain feelings when it's difficult for spouses to um identify feelings.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, thanks for tuning in.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: So this is Head Shrink Inc.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Doc David, and have a great day.
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