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Kayte Nunn on writing bestselling fiction across genres and publishers · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Speaker: The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as publishing industry professionals, to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Speaker: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: One deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:56
  Speaker 7: Hi, it's Madeleine here.
• 0:57
  Speaker 7: Today, I'm chatting with bestselling author Kayte Nunn.
• 1:00
  Speaker 7: Kayte grew up in England and the US before moving to Australia.
• 1:03
  Speaker 7: She's had a diverse career working in publishing, editing, and magazines before turning her hand to writing fiction.
• 1:09
  Speaker 7: Kayte is now the author of nine novels, including her latest, The Yacht, a page-turning crime thriller set on a super yacht in Majorca.
• 1:18
  Speaker 7: I chat with Kayte about writing the book that calls to you, how to be disciplined and resilient, and what success looks like when you are a prolific and bestselling author like Kayte.
• 1:28
  Speaker 7: A big thank you to Harper Collins Australia for sponsoring this episode.
• 1:32
  Madeleine Cleary: Kayte
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  video1596645673: Nunn, welcome to The Book Deal Podcast.
• 1:35
  Kayte Nunn: Thank you for having me, Madeleine.
• 1:36
  Kayte Nunn: I'm happy to talk to you today
• 1:37
  video1596645673: I'm very interested to hear about your journey to becoming a writer.
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  video1596645673: Um, I understand you worked in publishing for many
• 1:44
  Madeleine Cleary: years.
• 1:46
  video1596645673: So during this time I'm interested to know, were you always holding onto the dream of publishing your own writing?
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  video1596645673: Um,
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  Kayte Nunn: not in the slightest actually.
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  Kayte Nunn: I thought people far cleverer than me wrote books.
• 1:57
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and I never imagined I could sustain a whole story for
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  video1596645673: to 90,000 words and, and
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  Kayte Nunn: keep it in my head
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  video1596645673: and
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  Kayte Nunn: have enough happen.
• 2:06
  Kayte Nunn: Um, no, so I, I did a publishing degree, and then I worked in book publishing and for a literary agency for a while.
• 2:12
  Kayte Nunn: Um, but interestingly, I was always in search of doing more writing, but it was mainly nonfiction.
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  Kayte Nunn: And so I ended up working in magazines after I moved from book publishing to magazines where I could do more writing as a features writer.
• 2:23
  Kayte Nunn: And that was the bit I really enjoyed.
• 2:25
  Kayte Nunn: But I only came to
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  video1596645673: fiction
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  Kayte Nunn: relatively late.
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  Kayte Nunn: I was in my mid-40s.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, and it became a case of now or never.
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  Kayte Nunn: And a woman came up to me in the playground, a friend of mine, and she said,"I've written a book and I've, I've got a publisher." And I was like,"Oh my God, no, that's my dream." And of course, I was delighted for her, but it, it was also kind of quite galling and, and then it made me think, you know, it gave me permission, which was really good.
• 2:47
  Kayte Nunn: It's like, well, you know, if she can do it, why can't you, Kayte?
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  Kayte Nunn: And come on, stop
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  video1596645673: and
• 2:50
  Kayte Nunn: do
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  video1596645673: about
• 2:51
  Kayte Nunn: it.
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  Kayte Nunn: And then when I actually did start thinking about it...
• 2:53
  Kayte Nunn: And I'd, I'd had little bits
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  video1596645673: ideas
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  Kayte Nunn: for stories over the years and made notes and, you know, there'd always been something in the background going on.
• 3:02
  video1596645673: Um,
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  Kayte Nunn: but I had about six weeks, I was working as a freelance editor, and I had six weeks between jobs, and I purposefully didn't take any work and thought,"Right, I'll give it these six weeks and see how I go." And the thing I actually found I really loved was the feeling of having written.
• 3:15
  Kayte Nunn: So at the end of every day, I had moved my story along a bit.
• 3:19
  Kayte Nunn: Um, it was quite painful then looking back.
• 3:22
  Kayte Nunn: Um, it's a bit like when you first learn to run, you know, it really hurts and, and, you know, even a couple of kilometers feels like a major effort.
• 3:30
  Kayte Nunn: And now, of course, the words
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  video1596645673: much
• 3:32
  Kayte Nunn: more easily, but the ideas maybe not as, not as easily.
• 3:36
  Kayte Nunn: Um, the, the ideas have always, you know, that's always the, the most challenging part for
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  video1596645673: me is, is- Really?
• 3:41
  video1596645673: fashioning that story.
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  video1596645673: That's, that's interesting.
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  video1596645673: Why, why do
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  Madeleine Cleary: you think that?
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, just because, uh, I think readers are becoming increasingly
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  video1596645673: and
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  Kayte Nunn: demanding more and more from books, um, and they really, they want, really want great characterization.
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  Kayte Nunn: They want to be convinced, particularly now that I'm writing kind of closed circle murder mysteries.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, they want to not be able to guess who did it, but in the same time, they don't want to feel cheated, um, by, by, um, you know, you, you can't pull a fast one at the last minute.
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  Kayte Nunn: So I think coming up with that kind of structural idea, um, is, is the challenge.
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  Kayte Nunn: And I, you know, I'm, I kind of always make things harder for myself, I think.
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  Kayte Nunn: Uh, I, yeah, I
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  video1596645673: don't
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  Kayte Nunn: ever...
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  Kayte Nunn: I always want to write a better book
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  video1596645673: Mm, mm.
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  video1596645673: Well, I think we all do,
• 4:26
  Madeleine Cleary: don't we?
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  Madeleine Cleary: No, that's really, really interesting.
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  Madeleine Cleary: So, I
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  video1596645673: how did you go, though, from, you know,
• 4:31
  Madeleine Cleary: questioning yourself
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  video1596645673: the start, going,"How can I keep 80 to thou- 90,000 words in a cohesive novel?" Yeah.
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  video1596645673: Um,"I'm not sure how I can
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  Madeleine Cleary: do that," to actually sitting down at
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  video1596645673: desk every day writing?
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  video1596645673: Um,
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  Kayte Nunn: I think it
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  video1596645673: I
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  Kayte Nunn: was just telling myself a story, and I could kind of picture it like
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  video1596645673: movie
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  Kayte Nunn: in my head,
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  video1596645673: and it was just writing
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  Kayte Nunn: to see what happened.
• 4:52
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and,
• 4:53
  video1596645673: and after the
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  Kayte Nunn: first six weeks, I didn't have a lot of words, but I kept going with it.
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  video1596645673: I
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  Kayte Nunn: kept returning to it.
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  Kayte Nunn: I would, you know, carve out time.
• 5:02
  video1596645673: I had two
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  Kayte Nunn: young daughters at the time, so on the weekends
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  video1596645673: husband
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  Kayte Nunn: would
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  video1596645673: them maybe to the movies, and I'd go
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  Kayte Nunn: to the library next door and spend a couple of hours writing.
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  video1596645673: I'd go to bed
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  Kayte Nunn: at night
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  video1596645673: and, uh...
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  Kayte Nunn: 'cause
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  video1596645673: couldn't
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  Kayte Nunn: work, uh, really early in
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  video1596645673: morning.
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  video1596645673: I'd go to bed at
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  Kayte Nunn: night and promise myself I'd just do 500 words before I
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  video1596645673: asleep.
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  video1596645673: So it's just
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  Kayte Nunn: kind
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  video1596645673: inching
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  Kayte Nunn: the story along until I had a really rough draft.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, but at the time I didn't know what I
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  video1596645673: know.
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  video1596645673: I really knew very little about
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  Kayte Nunn: how
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  video1596645673: tell a story.
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  video1596645673: Um, and I,
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  Kayte Nunn: I, yeah, I learnt
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  video1596645673: of on the
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  Kayte Nunn: job and with good advice from people, and I did creative
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  video1596645673: workshops,
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  Kayte Nunn: just day workshops and things like that, that,
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  video1596645673: taught me
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  Kayte Nunn: more, and I began to read craft books.
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  video1596645673: And so
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  Kayte Nunn: slowly, slowly I kind of built up the knowledge, um, of how to write
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  video1596645673: And so was the draft you were working on, was that, um, your debut novel?
• 5:50
  video1596645673: Was that Rose's Message?
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  video1596645673: It was.
• 5:51
  video1596645673: Yeah?
• 5:51
  video1596645673: Yes.
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  Kayte Nunn: yes, it was.
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  video1596645673: and
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  Kayte Nunn: when I'd finished...
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  Kayte Nunn: And I, you know, it was still in a very raw state, not that I knew that.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, and I sent it out to various agents and my, um, the ag- the woman who became my agent rang me,
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  video1596645673: and we had about
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  Kayte Nunn: a 45-minute conversation.
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  Kayte Nunn: She told me everything
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  video1596645673: I
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  Kayte Nunn: needed to change about the manuscript,
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  video1596645673: And then she simply- But how wonderful that she- Yeah.
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  video1596645673: she called you.
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  video1596645673: Oh, I know.
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  video1596645673: That's awesome.
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  Kayte Nunn: Yeah.
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  video1596645673: She was
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  Kayte Nunn: really good.
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  Kayte Nunn: I really, really am so grateful for that input.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, and so sh- then she said,"Well, you don't seem phased
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  video1596645673: that,
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  Kayte Nunn: so do that and come back to me and then
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  video1596645673: see how we
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  Kayte Nunn: go." And I did, and made all the changes.
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  Kayte Nunn: And I'm, you know, I've worked as a professional writer for a long time, so that,
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  video1596645673: that whole idea of
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  Kayte Nunn: 10,000 hours of practice comes in, I think.
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  Kayte Nunn: I, you know, I
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  video1596645673: I could
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  Kayte Nunn: string a sentence together.
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  video1596645673: I
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  Kayte Nunn: knew h- um, I wasn't precious about my work.
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  Kayte Nunn: I, I, I knew that you had to
• 6:40
  video1596645673: back and
• 6:40
  Kayte Nunn: back again.
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  video1596645673: Um,
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  Kayte Nunn: and so I did all that, and then she sent it on submission sort of bit by bit.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, and it probably took nearly a year before it was published.
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  Kayte Nunn: So I mean, a lot of people say they never, you know, they have bottom drawer novels.
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  video1596645673: Um, I don't have that, but
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  Kayte Nunn: it did...
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  Kayte Nunn: It wasn't a, you know, an immediate path
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  video1596645673: publication
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  Kayte Nunn: by any means.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um,
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  video1596645673: I did
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  Kayte Nunn: what the only thing I could do
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  video1596645673: in
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  Kayte Nunn: that sense, and I started writing another novel.
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  Kayte Nunn: And I think I just like
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  video1596645673: process,
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  Kayte Nunn: and at the end of the day, if you don't enjoy the process, and it can be hard sometimes,
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  video1596645673: um,
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  Kayte Nunn: there's really not a lot of point in sticking with it'cause it's, it's really tough
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  video1596645673: Mm, mm.
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  video1596645673: So how many years did it
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  Madeleine Cleary: take then from the moment
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  video1596645673: you heard from your friend when she got
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  Madeleine Cleary: a book deal
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  video1596645673: actually having Rose's Vintage published?
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  video1596645673: Probably, probably
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  Kayte Nunn: about two or three years.
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  video1596645673: Yeah.
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  video1596645673: Wow, that's pretty quick.
• 7:24
  Madeleine Cleary: That's pretty k-
• 7:25
  Kayte Nunn: I know.
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  Kayte Nunn: It
• 7:26
  video1596645673: seem like a long
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  Kayte Nunn: time at
• 7:27
  video1596645673: time, but
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  Kayte Nunn: in the overall scheme of things,
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  video1596645673: that's
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  Kayte Nunn: not
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  video1596645673: bad.
• 7:30
  video1596645673: Yes.
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  video1596645673: Yeah, that's amazing.
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  video1596645673: Yeah.
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  video1596645673: And it is
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  Kayte Nunn: it's an absolute marathon.
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  Kayte Nunn: And interestingly enough, I was training for a marathon at
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  video1596645673: time I was writing.
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  video1596645673: And it was just like,
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  Kayte Nunn: I didn't look too far ahead.
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  Kayte Nunn: you know?
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  Kayte Nunn: You just do what
• 7:40
  video1596645673: got to
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  Kayte Nunn: do that day.
• 7:41
  Kayte Nunn: You do what you've got to do on the training program.
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  Kayte Nunn: You go,"Right, yes, I've gotta write 1,000 words today.
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  Kayte Nunn: I'm getting
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  video1596645673: done." Um,
• 7:46
  Kayte Nunn: and you try not to think too far into
• 7:47
  video1596645673: future, because otherwise it seems insurmountable.
• 7:50
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 7:50
  video1596645673: I think there's some really good points there, and I think, like, giving
• 7:53
  Madeleine Cleary: yourself that time to
• 7:54
  video1596645673: able to sit down and do it as well, carving that out of your day when you're busy.
• 7:57
  video1596645673: You've got day jobs, you've got family.
• 8:00
  video1596645673: But you have to, you know, giving yourself- But yeah and really validating yourself.
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  video1596645673: That saying,"Yes, I can do this." Yeah.
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  video1596645673: Particularly when you are an emerging writer and you
• 8:07
  Madeleine Cleary: don't have a book deal,
• 8:08
  Kayte Nunn: No,
• 8:08
  video1596645673: and
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  Kayte Nunn: part of me was like,"Are you just wasting your time, Kayte?
• 8:11
  Kayte Nunn: Are all
• 8:11
  video1596645673: these hours-
• 8:12
  Kayte Nunn: on something that is gonna go nowhere?" Um, but that didn't seem to matter too much.
• 8:16
  Kayte Nunn: Um, I think I'm quite grateful that social media wasn't such a
• 8:19
  video1596645673: thing then,
• 8:20
  Kayte Nunn: so
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  video1596645673: I wasn't as distracted as
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  Kayte Nunn: I might have been.
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  Kayte Nunn: Um, but also I kind of, um, thought of it like having
• 8:27
  video1596645673: secret
• 8:27
  Kayte Nunn: lover.
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  Kayte Nunn: You
• 8:28
  video1596645673: You could just kind of creep
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  Kayte Nunn: away and just spend some time
• 8:30
  video1596645673: your imaginary friends
• 8:32
  Kayte Nunn: and,
• 8:32
  video1596645673: have this
• 8:33
  Kayte Nunn: whole other world going on in your head,
• 8:35
  video1596645673: Mm that
• 8:35
  Kayte Nunn: it was quite nice to spend time
• 8:37
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 8:37
  video1596645673: So, so then, uh, so you published your two contemp- uh, they were the contemporary romance novels.
• 8:43
  video1596645673: Uh, and then you released your four historical fiction w- we- Yeah and some of them are
• 8:49
  Madeleine Cleary: the dual
• 8:50
  video1596645673: timeline as well.
• 8:51
  video1596645673: So you've got- Yeah multiple
• 8:51
  Madeleine Cleary: timelines.
• 8:52
  Madeleine Cleary: So what was What inspired
• 8:54
  video1596645673: shift?
• 8:54
  video1596645673: And did
• 8:55
  Madeleine Cleary: you change publisher at the time as well?
• 8:57
  Kayte Nunn: Uh, I did, yes.
• 8:58
  Kayte Nunn: Um, my, um, first publisher of those two books had
• 9:02
  video1596645673: a contemporary fiction list,
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  Kayte Nunn: but then decided not to, to go forward with it.
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  Kayte Nunn: So it became a good opportunity to look for a
• 9:09
  video1596645673: publisher
• 9:10
  Kayte Nunn: for what became The
• 9:11
  video1596645673: Daughter.
• 9:12
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 9:12
  video1596645673: Um, and,
• 9:13
  Kayte Nunn: um, I didn't consciously decide
• 9:15
  video1596645673: change genres.
• 9:16
  Kayte Nunn: It was more that was where my area of interest was.
• 9:18
  Kayte Nunn: Those are the kind of books I was reading, and then I happened to be in the
• 9:21
  video1596645673: gardens
• 9:22
  Kayte Nunn: in Sydney one day and the, the first inkling of the story came to me, and I just
• 9:26
  video1596645673: knew
• 9:27
  Kayte Nunn: that I had to sit down and try and write it.
• 9:29
  video1596645673: Um, yeah, and I
• 9:30
  Kayte Nunn: I was really lucky.
• 9:31
  Kayte Nunn: That did, um, extremely well
• 9:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Yes.
• 9:34
  Kayte Nunn: surprisingly.
• 9:35
  video1596645673: became, best-selling, um, you know, and then you- Yeah published your next few books.
• 9:39
  Kayte Nunn: Lots of, yeah, lots of
• 9:40
  video1596645673: rights sold.
• 9:41
  video1596645673: Um,
• 9:41
  Kayte Nunn: yeah, it quite a surprise.
• 9:43
  video1596645673: mean,
• 9:43
  Kayte Nunn: I, I knew I'd put a lot of, a lot of work into it, and I did a, a, an awful lot
• 9:47
  video1596645673: research for
• 9:48
  Kayte Nunn: it, but you never know how a book's to go.
• 9:50
  Kayte Nunn: You really don't
• 9:52
  video1596645673: Of
• 9:52
  Madeleine Cleary: course, of course.
• 9:53
  Madeleine Cleary: So
• 9:54
  video1596645673: then you so you're on this track of being this historical fiction bestselling author,
• 9:59
  Madeleine Cleary: uh,
• 9:59
  video1596645673: and then you pivot, to, to a crime, to So The Palazzo, which came out, uh, was it last year?
• 10:05
  video1596645673: Last year, yes.
• 10:06
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 10:07
  video1596645673: Um, and with HarperCollins, so you've, Yeah moved from Hachette to HarperCollins.
• 10:10
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 10:11
  video1596645673: Can
• 10:11
  Madeleine Cleary: about the,
• 10:12
  video1596645673: The pivot, the change.
• 10:14
  video1596645673: Um, gosh,
• 10:15
  Kayte Nunn: it was quite
• 10:16
  video1596645673: actually, because I wrote
• 10:17
  Kayte Nunn: another manuscript in between that called Silver Lake.
• 10:21
  Kayte Nunn: And, um, as part of that I did a course with Curtis Brown in London.
• 10:25
  Kayte Nunn: Um, because I It was, um, crime and I hadn't really written crime before and I thought maybe I need to try and figure out,
• 10:31
  video1596645673: you know,
• 10:32
  Kayte Nunn: what the
• 10:33
  video1596645673: I need some
• 10:33
  Kayte Nunn: tips, I need
• 10:34
  video1596645673: know
• 10:34
  Kayte Nunn: what
• 10:34
  video1596645673: doing.
• 10:35
  video1596645673: So
• 10:35
  Kayte Nunn: I did that course, and as a part of that your work gets, um, submitted to all the agents in the agency and they have a look at it.
• 10:43
  Kayte Nunn: Very early work, um, just for something you've been working
• 10:46
  video1596645673: during the course,
• 10:46
  Kayte Nunn: and it happened to be this partial of
• 10:48
  video1596645673: manuscript, Silver Lake.
• 10:49
  Kayte Nunn: And, um, my now agent saw it, um, she's an agent
• 10:53
  video1596645673: Curtis
• 10:54
  Kayte Nunn: Brown in London, and absolutely loved it.
• 10:55
  video1596645673: And- Mm I hadn't been
• 10:56
  Kayte Nunn: thinking of changing agents
• 10:58
  video1596645673: at
• 10:58
  Kayte Nunn: the time, but it just seemed to make so much
• 11:00
  video1596645673: sense.
• 11:01
  video1596645673: They
• 11:01
  Kayte Nunn: were a much bigger agency, they have
• 11:03
  video1596645673: around
• 11:03
  Kayte Nunn: the world, um, they
• 11:05
  video1596645673: a, um,
• 11:06
  Kayte Nunn: a film to, to
• 11:07
  video1596645673: film, film
• 11:08
  Kayte Nunn: agency in Los Angeles, so it just made a lot more sense.
• 11:12
  Kayte Nunn: But that manuscript,
• 11:13
  video1596645673: couldn't get
• 11:14
  Kayte Nunn: quite the right deal for it.
• 11:15
  video1596645673: had
• 11:15
  Kayte Nunn: some offers, but they wanted, you know, my next three books and
• 11:18
  video1596645673: firstborn and all the world rights for- Wow you know, really not very much
• 11:21
  Kayte Nunn: money.
• 11:21
  Kayte Nunn: So it just wasn't worth it.
• 11:23
  Kayte Nunn: So we parked it and I began to write The Palazzo.
• 11:26
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and interestingly enough, Silver Lake will come out, um, I think hopefully later this year.
• 11:32
  Kayte Nunn: I
• 11:32
  video1596645673: say too
• 11:33
  Kayte Nunn: much about it.
• 11:33
  video1596645673: Um, but- Mm-hmm um, it's
• 11:35
  Kayte Nunn: nice to know that
• 11:36
  video1596645673: ever
• 11:36
  Kayte Nunn: lost, and no writing is ever, ever a waste
• 11:39
  video1596645673: time, I don't think.
• 11:39
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 11:40
  video1596645673: Even if it
• 11:40
  Kayte Nunn: never sees the light
• 11:41
  video1596645673: day.
• 11:42
  video1596645673: Um,
• 11:42
  Kayte Nunn: so and then I wrote The Palazzo and my current publisher here really liked
• 11:46
  video1596645673: but the
• 11:47
  Kayte Nunn: sales director wasn't so keen, and that's when I moved publishers.
• 11:51
  video1596645673: Gosh, that must have been hard though, Kayte, having published
• 11:54
  Kayte Nunn: it's a rollercoaster.
• 11:55
  Kayte Nunn: It is tough.
• 11:55
  video1596645673: you just have to learn not to take it personally.
• 11:57
  video1596645673: It's a business.
• 11:58
  video1596645673: Um, these are
• 11:59
  Kayte Nunn: the commercial realities.
• 12:01
  Kayte Nunn: Yeah.
• 12:01
  Kayte Nunn: And the only thing you can do as a writer is go on
• 12:04
  video1596645673: write, you know, the be- Mm next best book you can really, and hope that
• 12:07
  Kayte Nunn: that gets published.
• 12:09
  Kayte Nunn: And I am aware of what a privilege it is to, to be able to, to be And I think I changed direction from, sorry, historical fiction to crime.
• 12:17
  Kayte Nunn: It
• 12:18
  video1596645673: just more
• 12:18
  Kayte Nunn: about what I was reading and
• 12:19
  video1596645673: I
• 12:19
  Kayte Nunn: was enjoying.
• 12:20
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and I'm really easily bored, so I, I You know, I'd written four historical novels and I was just ready for a change, to
• 12:27
  video1596645673: something else.
• 12:28
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 12:28
  video1596645673: Mm-hmm.
• 12:28
  video1596645673: Which is quite hard, because publishers
• 12:30
  Kayte Nunn: want to build you as
• 12:30
  video1596645673: brand.
• 12:31
  video1596645673: Um- Yeah, I was gonna say that, that, that- and they're not
• 12:33
  Kayte Nunn: they're not so
• 12:33
  video1596645673: which is why the sales
• 12:34
  Kayte Nunn: director was not so keen that I
• 12:35
  video1596645673: gonna change direction and thought,
• 12:36
  Kayte Nunn: well, if I was changing direction
• 12:38
  video1596645673: crime, would I change
• 12:39
  Kayte Nunn: direction, you know, another
• 12:40
  video1596645673: later
• 12:40
  Kayte Nunn: on?
• 12:40
  Kayte Nunn: And who knows?
• 12:41
  Kayte Nunn: You can't tell.
• 12:42
  Kayte Nunn: But, um, I can only write the book that is the
• 12:45
  video1596645673: really.
• 12:48
  Madeleine Cleary: yeah No, that's so interesting.
• 12:49
  Madeleine Cleary: And
• 12:49
  video1596645673: mean, as a historical fiction writer myself, um, I know the amount of, um, energy and time that goes into these as well.
• 12:57
  video1596645673: Like, it is quite Sometimes it's really tempting to just, you know And it's not, I'm not saying that writing contemporary crime is easier, but
• 13:03
  Madeleine Cleary: there is a lot that has to go into these books as well.
• 13:07
  Madeleine Cleary: And finding
• 13:07
  video1596645673: right idea and the right concept that's hitting your readership and the market, like, it
• 13:12
  Madeleine Cleary: is tough
• 13:13
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 13:14
  Kayte Nunn: Yeah.
• 13:14
  Kayte Nunn: And, um, you just have to kind of rely on your own, um, internal sense of what
• 13:21
  video1596645673: work as
• 13:21
  Kayte Nunn: a story really.
• 13:22
  Kayte Nunn: I think
• 13:23
  video1596645673: I think that's the only thing you
• 13:24
  Kayte Nunn: can do.
• 13:24
  Kayte Nunn: Um, yes, there are vagaries of publishing in terms of,
• 13:28
  video1596645673: know,
• 13:28
  Kayte Nunn: um,
• 13:29
  video1596645673: certain time periods can be really
• 13:31
  Kayte Nunn: popular for a while.
• 13:32
  Kayte Nunn: Second World War fiction was huge.
• 13:34
  Kayte Nunn: It's not so much anymore.
• 13:35
  Kayte Nunn: And, and it can help if
• 13:36
  video1596645673: just
• 13:37
  Kayte Nunn: catch the wave at the right time.
• 13:38
  Kayte Nunn: If you're first
• 13:39
  video1596645673: second
• 13:39
  Kayte Nunn: on that wave, you can do really well.
• 13:42
  video1596645673: Um, but um,
• 13:43
  Kayte Nunn: um, you just really at the end of the day have to write the book that's calling to you,
• 13:46
  video1596645673: I think.
• 13:47
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 13:47
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 13:47
  video1596645673: That's It, it's hard to fake it
• 13:49
  Kayte Nunn: otherwise
• 13:54
  Speaker 6: Hello, it's A.T.
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: Pruitt here, author of The Picasso Ransom.
• 13:58
  Speaker 6: Set in Melbourne 1986 and based on a real crime that went unsolved, the theft of The Weeping Woman, the Picasso painting that was taken from the National Gallery on the 2nd of August, 1986.
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: Uh, now nobody knows who did it, so I wrote the book as though I knew.
• 14:15
  Speaker 6: Three senior citizens, Phoebe, Eva, and Dave, they take the law into their own hands, and they sneak out into the night to remove this Picasso from the wall of the gallery in protest against art funding.
• 14:28
  Speaker 6: They then send a series of ransom letters, which were the actual ransom letters that were sent in the'80s.
• 14:34
  Speaker 6: And, uh, if you've ever been looking for some great insults, these ransom letters have everything you need.
• 14:40
  Speaker 6: I do hope that perhaps this novel will inspire the original thieves to finally come forward and say,"You know what?
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: It was me." But, uh, in the meantime, we at least have this book.
• 14:51
  Speaker 6: It's called The Picasso Ransom, and it is out now.
• 15:00
  video1596645673: Well, let's talk about the most recent book that calling to you, Kayte.
• 15:03
  video1596645673: Uh, so The Yacht,
• 15:05
  Madeleine Cleary: which
• 15:05
  video1596645673: set in beautiful Mallorca, um, on
• 15:08
  Madeleine Cleary: a super yacht.
• 15:09
  Madeleine Cleary: Um,
• 15:10
  video1596645673: now I
• 15:10
  Madeleine Cleary: heard this was inspired by a trip
• 15:12
  video1596645673: that you took to Mallorca, which sounds very, like a very dreamy inspired story.
• 15:18
  video1596645673: Um, and I was saying to you before we started recording that reading this in Melbourne winter was delightful.
• 15:24
  video1596645673: Oh, good.
• 15:24
  video1596645673: Uh, you capture the beautiful warmth, um, of, of
• 15:29
  Madeleine Cleary: Mallorca in summer,
• 15:30
  video1596645673: which was lovely.
• 15:31
  video1596645673: Can you
• 15:31
  Madeleine Cleary: tell us a
• 15:32
  video1596645673: bit about The Yacht and the inspiration
• 15:34
  Madeleine Cleary: behind it?
• 15:35
  video1596645673: Yes, yes.
• 15:35
  video1596645673: Um, I, um,
• 15:37
  Kayte Nunn: I was
• 15:39
  video1596645673: for an
• 15:39
  Kayte Nunn: environment that was very contained,
• 15:42
  video1596645673: and
• 15:42
  Kayte Nunn: there's nothing more contained than a yacht.
• 15:44
  video1596645673: know,
• 15:44
  Kayte Nunn: there's only a certain number of people who
• 15:45
  video1596645673: who can be
• 15:46
  Kayte Nunn: on it at one time.
• 15:48
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and things can go really badly wrong
• 15:50
  video1596645673: sea.
• 15:50
  Kayte Nunn: I had read with some interest of
• 15:53
  video1596645673: the
• 15:53
  Kayte Nunn: tragic sinking of the yacht, the Bayesian, off Sicily a
• 15:56
  video1596645673: of
• 15:56
  Kayte Nunn: years ago.
• 15:57
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and just the stories behind that and
• 15:59
  video1596645673: quickly
• 16:00
  Kayte Nunn: it happened.
• 16:01
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and that kind of stayed in my mind.
• 16:03
  Kayte Nunn: I also read, um, a story, I think it was in New York Magazine or something like that, about the Millers.
• 16:08
  Kayte Nunn: Brandon Miller was a, a New York and Long Island based, um, property investor, and his wife was all over social media.
• 16:16
  Kayte Nunn: You know, pictures of their beautiful life.
• 16:18
  Kayte Nunn: The, you know, um, they,
• 16:20
  video1596645673: were super
• 16:21
  Kayte Nunn: ultra
• 16:21
  video1596645673: rich list people.
• 16:23
  video1596645673: But
• 16:23
  Kayte Nunn: he, uh What happened, uh, there was it was all a sham.
• 16:27
  video1596645673: It was an absolute house of
• 16:28
  Kayte Nunn: house of cards and he was in, sinking in all kinds of debt.
• 16:31
  Kayte Nunn: And tragically, he committed suicide
• 16:33
  video1596645673: in the
• 16:33
  Kayte Nunn: the garage, uh, of his house while his wife was in Italy with
• 16:36
  video1596645673: his children.
• 16:37
  video1596645673: And it just struck me as, uh,
• 16:38
  Kayte Nunn: just ineffably sad and that, that people
• 16:41
  video1596645673: like
• 16:41
  Kayte Nunn: they
• 16:41
  video1596645673: to,
• 16:42
  Kayte Nunn: um, keep up with the Joneses in such an, a, you know, incredible way.
• 16:46
  Kayte Nunn: Um, so those two things fed, those two
• 16:48
  video1596645673: of
• 16:48
  Kayte Nunn: stories fed into it.
• 16:49
  Kayte Nunn: And then I watched a lot of Below Deck.
• 16:51
  Kayte Nunn: I
• 16:52
  video1596645673: I have a huge
• 16:53
  Kayte Nunn: appetite
• 16:53
  video1596645673: trash
• 16:54
  Kayte Nunn: TV and I watched a lot of that and I was like,"Yeah, this could..." This whole
• 16:57
  video1596645673: of
• 16:57
  Kayte Nunn: upstairs downstairs, the them and us, the, the increasing gap
• 17:02
  video1596645673: rich and
• 17:02
  Kayte Nunn: poor, all those kind of things really quite fascinate me.
• 17:05
  Kayte Nunn: So, um, it's, that seemed to be like the perfect, um,
• 17:09
  video1596645673: kind
• 17:09
  Kayte Nunn: of the perfect combination of ideas.
• 17:12
  video1596645673: And then I had
• 17:12
  Kayte Nunn: been on holiday in Majorca quite a long time ago, but just fell in love with the island.
• 17:17
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and I just, I had an idea that the yacht could kind of almost circumnavigate the island while the story was unfolding.
• 17:23
  Kayte Nunn: So it sort of, that sort of
• 17:25
  video1596645673: in a way.
• 17:26
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 17:26
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 17:26
  video1596645673: Did you- Um, and it
• 17:27
  Kayte Nunn: also happens to be a really big, um, sailing hub.
• 17:30
  video1596645673: Mm-hmm.
• 17:30
  video1596645673: Um,
• 17:31
  Kayte Nunn: Palma itself has a massive marina and so that, it just felt like the ideal place to set it.
• 17:36
  Kayte Nunn: I do like to try and set places where I have spent
• 17:40
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 17:42
  video1596645673: Perf- yeah, it was the perfect setting.
• 17:43
  video1596645673: And it's funny'cause you mentioned Upstairs Downstairs.
• 17:45
  video1596645673: That's exactly what I thought about when I was reading- reading it.
• 17:49
  video1596645673: Because you do get that insight, not only into the world and the eyes and the views
• 17:53
  Madeleine Cleary: of the super-rich
• 17:55
  video1596645673: who can afford
• 17:56
  Madeleine Cleary: to
• 17:57
  video1596645673: purchase these incredible super yachts, like, they just sound amazing.
• 18:01
  Madeleine Cleary: um, but then you see
• 18:03
  video1596645673: the undercurrent, so the, you know, the underbelly, which are the- Yeah staff involved.
• 18:07
  video1596645673: And so I found, like, Piper's story really quite interesting.
• 18:11
  video1596645673: Do you wanna tell us a little bit about Piper?
• 18:13
  video1596645673: Um,
• 18:14
  Kayte Nunn: I think she
• 18:14
  video1596645673: was one
• 18:15
  Kayte Nunn: of the first characters that came to me.
• 18:17
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and I knew she had to be hiding something.
• 18:19
  Kayte Nunn: There was a reason, you know, that she was on that yacht.
• 18:22
  Kayte Nunn: She's not a total innocent bystander
• 18:24
  video1596645673: by
• 18:25
  Kayte Nunn: any means.
• 18:25
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and so she became one of the main drivers And then interestingly to me, um, Melissa,
• 18:31
  video1596645673: is
• 18:32
  Kayte Nunn: the daughter of the, the billionaire, um, uh, from
• 18:36
  video1596645673: first marriage.
• 18:37
  video1596645673: She became
• 18:38
  Kayte Nunn: really quite an important character to
• 18:39
  video1596645673: because, uh, to
• 18:41
  Kayte Nunn: the outside world she
• 18:42
  video1596645673: looked
• 18:43
  Kayte Nunn: like
• 18:43
  video1596645673: real kind
• 18:43
  Kayte Nunn: of hard ass, and she was, um, incredibly self-disciplined and hardworking and seemed
• 18:49
  video1596645673: have it
• 18:49
  Kayte Nunn: all.
• 18:49
  Kayte Nunn: But really when you dig a little deeper, she's dealing with all
• 18:53
  video1596645673: of issues as well.
• 18:54
  video1596645673: Oh, yeah.
• 18:54
  video1596645673: It was those
• 18:55
  Kayte Nunn: two female characters that to me felt the strongest in the novel.
• 18:58
  Kayte Nunn: Although there are I think about five or six different points
• 19:01
  video1596645673: view,
• 19:02
  Kayte Nunn: plus some kind of social
• 19:03
  video1596645673: comments.
• 19:04
  video1596645673: I spent quite a bit of
• 19:05
  Kayte Nunn: time going down Reddit wormholes and, just really enjoyed the way people talked about things
• 19:10
  video1596645673: if, you
• 19:10
  Kayte Nunn: know, they knew all about them and they were the authorities on, on what had happened in various events.
• 19:15
  Kayte Nunn: I added those for a bit
• 19:16
  video1596645673: fun as well.
• 19:17
  video1596645673: And, uh, on the multiple perspectives, I mean, sometimes when you do have...
• 19:21
  video1596645673: 'Cause you've got quite a few perspectives in this novel, and sometimes I find when you flip between them,
• 19:26
  Madeleine Cleary: like, you become a little bit,
• 19:28
  video1596645673: um, you have to just
• 19:29
  Madeleine Cleary: sort
• 19:29
  video1596645673: think,
• 19:29
  Madeleine Cleary: "Oh,
• 19:30
  video1596645673: where's this story up to?" Da, da.
• 19:31
  video1596645673: But I didn't find that in The
• 19:33
  Madeleine Cleary: Yacht
• 19:34
  video1596645673: Oh, okay.
• 19:34
  video1596645673: That's good.
• 19:34
  video1596645673: Perhaps because the, the chapters are...
• 19:35
  Madeleine Cleary: Well,
• 19:36
  video1596645673: some of them are only two pages.
• 19:37
  video1596645673: Was that- Yeah was that deliberate?
• 19:39
  video1596645673: Yes, it was.
• 19:40
  Kayte Nunn: Just
• 19:40
  video1596645673: keep the story going, to
• 19:41
  Kayte Nunn: maintain a sense of momentum and, and to, to maintain a sense of all these different
• 19:45
  video1596645673: things going on board, you
• 19:47
  Kayte Nunn: know, uh, on one kind of fairly contained
• 19:49
  video1596645673: space.
• 19:50
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 19:50
  video1596645673: And perhaps it is because
• 19:52
  Madeleine Cleary: it is
• 19:52
  video1596645673: so contained.
• 19:53
  video1596645673: And I was i- really interested,
• 19:55
  Madeleine Cleary: that was actually when you mentioned
• 19:56
  video1596645673: finding somewhere where it
• 19:57
  Madeleine Cleary: was confined,
• 19:58
  video1596645673: was really curious to know, as a writer, was that easier to have all your characters, like a big cast of characters together
• 20:05
  Madeleine Cleary: in
• 20:05
  video1596645673: space?
• 20:05
  video1596645673: Or were there more challenges?
• 20:07
  Kayte Nunn: I had to draw myself
• 20:08
  video1596645673: a map of
• 20:09
  Kayte Nunn: where And I looked at yacht plans
• 20:12
  video1596645673: and, thought,
• 20:13
  Kayte Nunn: "Right, I'll try..." And so I could work out where the cabins were and what was on each, deck, I looked at lots of yacht plans and worked out, you know, um, how much
• 20:21
  video1596645673: might
• 20:21
  Kayte Nunn: have cost, what would have been included on a yacht, all that kind of stuff.
• 20:25
  Kayte Nunn: So that kind of, that sort of research was a lot of fun.
• 20:28
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and no, I didn't find it too tricky'cause it's qu- it's relatively big given the, the number of people on board still.
• 20:34
  Kayte Nunn: So there were And I think there are places on board a yacht where you
• 20:37
  video1596645673: really be quite private and- Mm get away.
• 20:39
  video1596645673: So- Did you get invited onto one?
• 20:41
  Kayte Nunn: Uh, no, but I did.
• 20:42
  Kayte Nunn: I have Well, actually, um, quite a few years
• 20:45
  video1596645673: I used to be a travel writer.
• 20:46
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 20:46
  Kayte Nunn: and I did spend some time on a, uh,
• 20:50
  video1596645673: a yacht
• 20:50
  Kayte Nunn: sailing, that normally sails around the Kimberley, and we sailed up the Hawkesbury for a
• 20:54
  video1596645673: days.
• 20:55
  video1596645673: So
• 20:55
  Kayte Nunn: I had a little bit of a sense
• 20:57
  video1596645673: that, yeah.
• 20:57
  Kayte Nunn: yeah, And it was just, I
• 20:58
  video1596645673: maybe
• 20:58
  Kayte Nunn: f- yeah, I think there were probably only 14 of us on board, so probably a similar size.
• 21:03
  Kayte Nunn: But not quite so many bells and whistles maybe.
• 21:05
  video1596645673: so.
• 21:05
  video1596645673: I think there were...
• 21:06
  video1596645673: You said there were two staff per, um, passenger.
• 21:10
  Madeleine Cleary: which is quite extraordinary.
• 21:12
  video1596645673: Um, I actually found one of the best parts was the detail of the super
• 21:16
  Madeleine Cleary: yacht.
• 21:17
  Madeleine Cleary: Like, I, I
• 21:18
  video1596645673: all the language and the words.
• 21:19
  video1596645673: It sounds
• 21:19
  Madeleine Cleary: like you did do a lot of research.
• 21:21
  Kayte Nunn: I did.
• 21:22
  Kayte Nunn: That was
• 21:23
  video1596645673: Yes, yeah.
• 21:23
  video1596645673: Quite a bit
• 21:24
  Kayte Nunn: of
• 21:24
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 21:25
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 21:25
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 21:25
  video1596645673: Well, hopefully, um, someone will read this and they have a super yacht, and say, Kayte come I didn't quite get that.
• 21:31
  Kayte Nunn: that.
• 21:31
  Kayte Nunn: Oh, no.
• 21:32
  Kayte Nunn: Oh, maybe.
• 21:32
  Kayte Nunn: I d-
• 21:33
  video1596645673: I d- I'm
• 21:33
  Kayte Nunn: not holding my breath, no.
• 21:34
  video1596645673: It al- it always sounds quite glamorous working on a super yacht, but, um, I don't think I would ever want to after reading your book.
• 21:40
  video1596645673: Oh, look, I think
• 21:41
  Kayte Nunn: it's, um, it's really hard work and, uh, and you're dealing with people who aren't used to hearing the word no.
• 21:47
  Kayte Nunn: I
• 21:48
  video1596645673: that would be
• 21:48
  Kayte Nunn: the biggest challenge.
• 21:49
  Kayte Nunn: And then I think I touch on it briefly, there are all kinds of, um, issues of people behaving inappropriately with young women,
• 21:57
  video1596645673: working on yachts,
• 21:58
  Kayte Nunn: Because, yeah, they're not used
• 22:00
  video1596645673: hearing the word no, and they just, you know, they
• 22:01
  Kayte Nunn: think they own everything.
• 22:03
  Kayte Nunn: Uh, and I think
• 22:04
  video1596645673: that's
• 22:05
  Kayte Nunn: the kind of s-
• 22:05
  video1596645673: of
• 22:06
  Kayte Nunn: the seamy underside what can go on
• 22:09
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 22:09
  video1596645673: And I guess
• 22:10
  Madeleine Cleary: that's quite, it
• 22:11
  video1596645673: quite the interesting part too because, um, you know, while this is a thriller, um, it's a fast-paced turn- page-turner, um, you also offer this sort of subtle critique of wealth and power and class.
• 22:22
  video1596645673: Um, and exploitation as well.
• 22:25
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 22:25
  video1596645673: Like, there's a lot of that.
• 22:26
  video1596645673: Um, was that something you always wanted to include?
• 22:30
  Kayte Nunn: Absolutely, but without, um, being kind of prescriptive about it.
• 22:34
  video1596645673: Mm-hmm.
• 22:34
  video1596645673: Just to, you
• 22:35
  Kayte Nunn: know, to, to comment on that, that this does happen and, and make the reader aware of that without kind yeah, without being
• 22:42
  video1596645673: I suppose.
• 22:43
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 22:43
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 22:43
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 22:43
  video1596645673: You, you never
• 22:44
  Kayte Nunn: dictate to the reader.
• 22:45
  Kayte Nunn: You can never kind of bash the reader over the head with your own viewpoint.
• 22:48
  Kayte Nunn: You just have to
• 22:49
  video1596645673: of lay it out, um, and let them
• 22:51
  Kayte Nunn: make up their own mind about
• 22:53
  Madeleine Cleary: Hmm.
• 22:53
  video1596645673: Did you plot it out, The Yacht, or are you a pantser?
• 22:55
  video1596645673: Um, I
• 22:56
  Kayte Nunn: wish I could be a plotter.
• 22:57
  Kayte Nunn: I'm absolutely 100%
• 22:59
  video1596645673: 100% a pantser.
• 22:59
  video1596645673: I
• 23:00
  Kayte Nunn: try, I really try, and I've tried all different sorts of methods over
• 23:03
  video1596645673: years, with whiteboards, with
• 23:04
  Kayte Nunn: whiteboards,
• 23:05
  video1596645673: big
• 23:05
  Kayte Nunn: sheets of paper.
• 23:06
  video1596645673: Occasionally I'll
• 23:07
  Kayte Nunn: do a bit of brainstorming and I'll go to
• 23:09
  video1596645673: café just with a notebook and
• 23:10
  Kayte Nunn: have some thoughts, and that's about as far as I get in terms
• 23:14
  video1596645673: planning.
• 23:14
  Kayte Nunn: If I
• 23:15
  video1596645673: the
• 23:15
  Kayte Nunn: whole story out, I'd be bored before I started'cause I would know what happens.
• 23:19
  Kayte Nunn: Um, you know, I'm writing to find out what happens as much as the, the reader is reading to find out what happens, and often it surprises me, too.
• 23:28
  Madeleine Cleary: I'm glad that
• 23:29
  video1596645673: say that because
• 23:30
  Madeleine Cleary: as,
• 23:30
  video1596645673: Because I write historical mysteries, and a lot of other crime writers tell me that they are
• 23:35
  Madeleine Cleary: are plotters
• 23:36
  video1596645673: because it helps with all the hooks and the twists and the
• 23:39
  Madeleine Cleary: the turns and everything.
• 23:40
  Madeleine Cleary: So it makes me feel much better.
• 23:42
  Madeleine Cleary: But I suppose though,
• 23:43
  video1596645673: a lot Some, some One writer
• 23:44
  Madeleine Cleary: told me even if
• 23:45
  video1596645673: don't plot out initially and you do pants the first
• 23:49
  Madeleine Cleary: draft, there comes a time in the editorial where you do have to
• 23:53
  video1596645673: s- really unpick it and start to plot out those points.
• 23:57
  video1596645673: Is that something you have to do?
• 23:58
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 23:58
  video1596645673: You just have to make sure that
• 24:01
  Kayte Nunn: there is enough going on to kind of maybe misdirect the reader or just leave
• 24:05
  video1596645673: reader
• 24:06
  Kayte Nunn: wondering, um, to, to pique their interest.
• 24:10
  video1596645673: Um, and
• 24:11
  Kayte Nunn: then s- usually I have a few ideas
• 24:13
  video1596645673: kind
• 24:13
  Kayte Nunn: of tent pole things that might happen along the way, um, and where it might end up.
• 24:18
  Kayte Nunn: Although it doesn't of- you know, it doesn't always end up quite where I think it is.
• 24:21
  Kayte Nunn: And interestingly, um, both
• 24:23
  video1596645673: Palazzo and
• 24:24
  Kayte Nunn: and The Yacht, my editors have pushed me that bit harder and gone,"We just need another twist.
• 24:28
  Kayte Nunn: We need another twist." And so that has come, that last final twist has actually come in the editing process.
• 24:33
  Kayte Nunn: Um, so yeah, it's not
• 24:35
  video1596645673: I
• 24:35
  Kayte Nunn: can do all at once.
• 24:36
  Kayte Nunn: I have
• 24:36
  video1596645673: come
• 24:36
  Kayte Nunn: back
• 24:37
  video1596645673: take
• 24:37
  Kayte Nunn: small bites at it, and then
• 24:39
  video1596645673: about it
• 24:39
  Kayte Nunn: again, and do a lot of walking before I can come up with, with the, you know, uh, like,"Oh, yes,
• 24:45
  video1596645673: this could
• 24:45
  Kayte Nunn: happen and that will make it brilliant."
• 24:46
  video1596645673: And yes, it's a
• 24:48
  Kayte Nunn: slow process
• 24:49
  video1596645673: Hmm.
• 24:49
  video1596645673: Um, w-
• 24:50
  Madeleine Cleary: I wanted to ask you about your relationship with your publisher and editor
• 24:53
  video1596645673: 'cause y- obviously you're a, you know, you've published nine books now, very experienced author.
• 24:58
  video1596645673: What does the editorial process look like these days?
• 25:01
  video1596645673: And you- you're publishing a book a year as well, which is
• 25:04
  Madeleine Cleary: a lot of, you know, full pressure
• 25:06
  video1596645673: to, to deliver and,
• 25:07
  Madeleine Cleary: and,
• 25:08
  video1596645673: you know- Yeah write.
• 25:09
  video1596645673: So what's, what's your relationship like now?
• 25:11
  Kayte Nunn: Oh, look, I am
• 25:12
  video1596645673: so grateful
• 25:13
  Kayte Nunn: for editorial input, and I have
• 25:15
  video1596645673: couple of brilliant
• 25:16
  Kayte Nunn: editors both here and in the UK.
• 25:18
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and yeah, putting a
• 25:20
  video1596645673: out
• 25:20
  Kayte Nunn: into the world is, it's a team effort.
• 25:23
  Kayte Nunn: And, um, particularly my, uh, my kind of
• 25:26
  video1596645673: editor
• 25:26
  Kayte Nunn: on The Yacht was amazing.
• 25:28
  Kayte Nunn: She really She worried about all the little details and picked
• 25:32
  video1596645673: on everything and
• 25:33
  Kayte Nunn: so that
• 25:34
  video1596645673: incredible.
• 25:34
  video1596645673: But
• 25:34
  Kayte Nunn: I love the over-
• 25:35
  video1596645673: big picture overview
• 25:36
  Kayte Nunn: I get as well from,
• 25:38
  video1596645673: my
• 25:38
  Kayte Nunn: acquiring editors.
• 25:39
  Kayte Nunn: Yeah, it's I, I couldn't write as- the books I do without their input.
• 25:44
  Kayte Nunn: absolutely invaluable.
• 25:46
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 25:46
  video1596645673: Do you- And I'm grateful for it
• 25:47
  Kayte Nunn: it every single time
• 25:48
  Madeleine Cleary: So
• 25:49
  video1596645673: when you come up with new ideas for future books,
• 25:51
  Madeleine Cleary: do you
• 25:52
  video1596645673: to them first, and, and then sort of discuss the idea
• 25:55
  Madeleine Cleary: and
• 25:56
  video1596645673: go write it?
• 25:56
  video1596645673: Or are you- Um, no submitting them straight?
• 25:58
  video1596645673: Usually
• 25:59
  Kayte Nunn: I pitch it to my literary agent
• 26:01
  video1596645673: and we discuss it, Mm.
• 26:03
  video1596645673: and
• 26:03
  Kayte Nunn: we're in the process, um, of discussing what I'm going
• 26:05
  video1596645673: be writing next
• 26:06
  Kayte Nunn: just
• 26:07
  video1596645673: this
• 26:07
  Kayte Nunn: moment, and that's quite interesting.
• 26:08
  Kayte Nunn: It's helping me just focus my mind
• 26:11
  video1596645673: and
• 26:11
  Kayte Nunn: my literary agent has
• 26:12
  video1596645673: a good commercial
• 26:13
  Kayte Nunn: sense as well.
• 26:15
  Kayte Nunn: Um, but generally I tend to, particularly if
• 26:19
  video1596645673: a new contract, I'll write the book before it then gets submitted
• 26:22
  Kayte Nunn: to a publisher.
• 26:22
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and then I might have a, a pitch for a second book, and so they might offer me and that's what happened with The Palazzo and The Yacht.
• 26:30
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 26:30
  video1596645673: That's great.
• 26:30
  video1596645673: And are you writing more crime, Kayte?
• 26:33
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 26:34
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 26:34
  video1596645673: That's what your plan is?
• 26:35
  video1596645673: Yeah?
• 26:36
  video1596645673: But you can't tell us anything about it.
• 26:38
  video1596645673: Oh, not
• 26:39
  Kayte Nunn: really, no.
• 26:39
  Kayte Nunn: I just worry that sometimes if you talk about something too much, it,
• 26:42
  video1596645673: it
• 26:42
  Kayte Nunn: loses that spark, and you have to kind
• 26:44
  video1596645673: keep it
• 26:45
  Kayte Nunn: close for a while so that the,
• 26:46
  video1596645673: know, the flame doesn't go out.
• 26:47
  video1596645673: Of course.
• 26:48
  video1596645673: No, I understand.
• 26:48
  video1596645673: So,
• 26:48
  Kayte Nunn: and h- honestly, because I'm a pantser, I don't know where it's going
• 26:52
  video1596645673: the time.
• 26:52
  Kayte Nunn: time.
• 26:53
  video1596645673: No, I completely understand that.
• 26:56
  Madeleine Cleary: So how do, how does
• 26:57
  video1596645673: process look like when you are publishing a book a year?
• 27:00
  video1596645673: And of it, and this year it sounds like you might have two books out in a year.
• 27:04
  video1596645673: Yes.
• 27:04
  video1596645673: Well, I had-'Cause
• 27:04
  Madeleine Cleary: it doesn't take
• 27:05
  video1596645673: just one year to, to- No write a book, does it?
• 27:07
  video1596645673: I had a gap of a couple of
• 27:08
  Kayte Nunn: years because this other book, g- didn't get published.
• 27:12
  Kayte Nunn: Um,
• 27:13
  video1596645673: I just, um But
• 27:14
  Kayte Nunn: basically I try and make myself
• 27:17
  video1596645673: kinds of
• 27:17
  Kayte Nunn: revisions, schedules, and you know, like I
• 27:20
  video1596645673: to do for
• 27:21
  Kayte Nunn: exams.
• 27:21
  Kayte Nunn: I'll do this much this day and that much that day and, um, I try
• 27:25
  video1596645673: write Monday
• 27:26
  Kayte Nunn: to Friday.
• 27:27
  Kayte Nunn: Sometimes I have to w- write on weekends as well.
• 27:29
  Kayte Nunn: Um, even if I used to do this ridiculous thing called the hour of power on the weekends.
• 27:33
  video1596645673: I'm
• 27:33
  Kayte Nunn: just going away to the bedroom
• 27:34
  video1596645673: an
• 27:34
  Kayte Nunn: hour and leaving my family behind
• 27:36
  video1596645673: and
• 27:36
  Kayte Nunn: usually, you know, an hour would
• 27:38
  video1596645673: by
• 27:38
  Kayte Nunn: and I'd
• 27:39
  video1596645673: be
• 27:39
  Kayte Nunn: writing and they would've forgotten that I'd disappeared.
• 27:41
  Kayte Nunn: Uh,
• 27:42
  video1596645673: I
• 27:42
  Kayte Nunn: I have to trick myself into, into writing sometimes.
• 27:45
  Kayte Nunn: Uh, but often in the course of a year it might mean that I am editing one book,
• 27:50
  video1596645673: I'm promoting
• 27:51
  Kayte Nunn: another, and I'm writing, um, you
• 27:54
  video1596645673: know,
• 27:54
  Kayte Nunn: writing
• 27:56
  video1596645673: the,
• 27:56
  Kayte Nunn: the first draft of another.
• 27:57
  Kayte Nunn: So you kind of As long as I'm not swapping day by day, I'm doing it
• 28:01
  video1596645673: big
• 28:01
  Kayte Nunn: chunks, okay to keep my, my brain focused on that one
• 28:06
  video1596645673: But-
• 28:06
  Madeleine Cleary: And how's the work-life balance
• 28:07
  video1596645673: then?
• 28:08
  video1596645673: Oh, look, it's pretty good.
• 28:09
  video1596645673: My daughters
• 28:10
  Kayte Nunn: are older now, so I'm doing less mothering, and that's taking up a lot less of my time.
• 28:15
  Kayte Nunn: So, um, yeah, no, it's, it's I'm, I'm really fortunate to be able to have plenty of time, almost too much time.
• 28:22
  Kayte Nunn: You know, sometimes if,
• 28:23
  video1596645673: your
• 28:23
  Kayte Nunn: time is limited, you, you just have to sit down and get
• 28:26
  video1596645673: done.
• 28:26
  video1596645673: And I
• 28:27
  Kayte Nunn: remember that, feeling that pressure always.
• 28:28
  Kayte Nunn: Like,
• 28:29
  video1596645673: just
• 28:29
  Kayte Nunn: wanna go and write.
• 28:30
  Kayte Nunn: I just wanna write this." Whereas now I'm like,"No, Kayte, you have to to laptop
• 28:34
  video1596645673: by
• 28:35
  Kayte Nunn: 10:00 this morning."
• 28:37
  video1596645673: That's interesting.
• 28:38
  video1596645673: Yeah, I've, I've found that too,'cause I have a day job, and I've always wondered if I wor- if I had full time to write, if I would produce more, and I don't think I
• 28:46
  Madeleine Cleary: would.
• 28:47
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 28:48
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 28:48
  video1596645673: You know, you squeeze- Yeah those hours.
• 28:50
  video1596645673: You do it in the cracks, and perhaps just not having that much time still enables you to be,
• 28:55
  Madeleine Cleary: you
• 28:55
  video1596645673: y- you- I think it does forced to sit down.
• 28:58
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 28:58
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 28:58
  Kayte Nunn: and I think
• 28:59
  video1596645673: it's That's such an,
• 29:00
  Kayte Nunn: an, a good position to come,
• 29:01
  video1596645673: come
• 29:01
  Kayte Nunn: at
• 29:02
  video1596645673: from, because so-
• 29:03
  Kayte Nunn: so many people can say,"Oh, well, if I only had the time,
• 29:05
  video1596645673: write." And
• 29:05
  Kayte Nunn: it's like, no, no, no, you make
• 29:07
  video1596645673: time.
• 29:07
  video1596645673: You,
• 29:08
  Kayte Nunn: you
• 29:08
  video1596645673: half an hour a day.
• 29:09
  video1596645673: You
• 29:09
  Kayte Nunn: know, how much time do you spend scrolling on your phone?
• 29:11
  Kayte Nunn: You could cut that in half and just focus and do that.
• 29:15
  Kayte Nunn: And, and I think the trick is
• 29:16
  video1596645673: just
• 29:17
  Kayte Nunn: go, I, and I often do, I'll just go into the manuscript.
• 29:19
  video1596645673: just have
• 29:19
  Kayte Nunn: have a, a
• 29:20
  video1596645673: through.
• 29:20
  video1596645673: I'll just have a look, and before
• 29:22
  Kayte Nunn: I know it, I'm in the story and I'm coming up with some ideas and writing,
• 29:25
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 29:26
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 29:26
  video1596645673: Well, I,
• 29:27
  Madeleine Cleary: I think everyone should take your advice,
• 29:29
  video1596645673: because you are prolific and productive, and- you write great novels, so And bestselling novels as well.
• 29:33
  video1596645673: I'm
• 29:33
  Madeleine Cleary: And best-selling
• 29:34
  Kayte Nunn: very deadline oriented.
• 29:36
  Madeleine Cleary: That's a, that is a really,
• 29:38
  video1596645673: really good way to be.
• 29:39
  video1596645673: Um, is there something that
• 29:41
  Madeleine Cleary: you wish
• 29:41
  video1596645673: that you'd known at the start of your career, um, that you know now?
• 29:46
  Kayte Nunn: Um, I wish I'd known that, um
• 29:50
  video1596645673: um-
• 29:54
  Kayte Nunn: Lots
• 29:54
  video1596645673: things
• 29:54
  Kayte Nunn: actually.
• 29:55
  Kayte Nunn: Not to compare myself with other people, with other writers.
• 29:58
  Kayte Nunn: Um, comparison is the thief of joy and it, it serves no purpose, and that, um,
• 30:04
  video1596645673: The, the writer's career is very much
• 30:07
  Kayte Nunn: a rollercoaster.
• 30:08
  Kayte Nunn: You can have amazing times and don't forget to celebrate them, and then you can have really tough times when
• 30:12
  video1596645673: don't
• 30:12
  Kayte Nunn: quite go your way, and a lot of it is out of your only thing you can control is writing the best can at that point in time.
• 30:20
  video1596645673: Um, and to kind of hold onto that, I think, is
• 30:22
  Kayte Nunn: really
• 30:23
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 30:24
  video1596645673: So, uh, was W- when you are in the dip of the rollercoaster, what are some of the things that have helped you?
• 30:30
  video1596645673: Um, not
• 30:31
  Kayte Nunn: looking too far ahead.
• 30:33
  Kayte Nunn: Just, um, immersing myself back in the writing and, um, just taking it one day at
• 30:38
  video1596645673: time.
• 30:39
  video1596645673: Mm-hmm.
• 30:39
  video1596645673: Um, it's
• 30:40
  Kayte Nunn: the only thing,
• 30:41
  video1596645673: yeah, Mm.
• 30:42
  video1596645673: The only thing I c- I can way
• 30:43
  Kayte Nunn: I can,
• 30:44
  video1596645673: um,
• 30:45
  Kayte Nunn: figure out how to,
• 30:46
  video1596645673: to
• 30:46
  Kayte Nunn: deal with it.
• 30:47
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 30:47
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 30:48
  video1596645673: Yeah, no, it's, it's really import- I think it's really tough when you're in the moment, isn't
• 30:51
  Madeleine Cleary: it, to try
• 30:52
  video1596645673: get yourself out of it.
• 30:54
  video1596645673: Um, I know.
• 30:54
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 30:55
  video1596645673: And, and, and the thing is, it, it comes for everybody.
• 30:57
  video1596645673: No one's a-
• 30:58
  Madeleine Cleary: no one's going to
• 30:58
  video1596645673: a linear success- No,
• 31:00
  Kayte Nunn: no, exactly.
• 31:02
  Kayte Nunn: I think you actually have to
• 31:03
  video1596645673: quite
• 31:03
  Kayte Nunn: bloody-minded as a writer.
• 31:04
  video1596645673: You
• 31:05
  Kayte Nunn: just
• 31:05
  video1596645673: to go,"You know what?
• 31:06
  video1596645673: Don't underestimate
• 31:07
  Kayte Nunn: me.
• 31:08
  Kayte Nunn: I'm gonna keep going." Um, yeah, even if nobody reads what I'm writing, I'm doing it because I
• 31:14
  video1596645673: can't do anything else.
• 31:15
  video1596645673: Mm, mm.
• 31:16
  video1596645673: So how do
• 31:17
  Madeleine Cleary: you measure success these days
• 31:20
  video1596645673: Um, readers
• 31:22
  Kayte Nunn: telling me they've enjoyed a book.
• 31:23
  video1596645673: I
• 31:23
  Kayte Nunn: think it, it, that's what it comes down to.
• 31:26
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and a friend of mine has this great theory in terms of negative reviews, which used
• 31:29
  video1596645673: get
• 31:30
  Kayte Nunn: to me.
• 31:30
  Kayte Nunn: They don't so much anymore, which
• 31:32
  video1596645673: fantastic.
• 31:32
  video1596645673: It's
• 31:33
  Kayte Nunn: only taken 10 years.
• 31:34
  Kayte Nunn: Um, it's, uh, called The Wrong Restaurant, and she used to work for, um, a three-hatted restaurant, and they'd occasionally get terrible reviews.
• 31:42
  video1596645673: I hated it.
• 31:43
  video1596645673: It
• 31:43
  Kayte Nunn: it was awful." And she'd go,"You know what?
• 31:45
  Kayte Nunn: They just went expecting a burger.
• 31:47
  Kayte Nunn: They, they went to the wrong restaurant." And it's
• 31:48
  video1596645673: if people
• 31:49
  Kayte Nunn: read my books
• 31:50
  video1596645673: they don't
• 31:50
  Kayte Nunn: enjoy it, maybe they're, it's not what they were expecting.
• 31:53
  Kayte Nunn: Um,
• 31:54
  video1596645673: so
• 31:54
  Kayte Nunn: And, and as Elizabeth Gilbert says, you can be the ripest, juiciest peach on the tree and somebody isn't gonna like So you just, you know, just ig-
• 32:02
  video1596645673: just ig- you
• 32:02
  Kayte Nunn: know, yes, it's fantastic to hear
• 32:03
  video1596645673: people who have enjoyed the book,
• 32:05
  Kayte Nunn: uh, or the books,
• 32:07
  video1596645673: and for all the various reasons, and the
• 32:09
  Kayte Nunn: things it's meant to them.
• 32:10
  Kayte Nunn: That's amazing.
• 32:11
  Kayte Nunn: Um, and I love it when
• 32:12
  video1596645673: email me.
• 32:13
  video1596645673: It really does cheer me up and, and, you know, make me think it's worth, worth keeping going.
• 32:18
  video1596645673: Um, but,
• 32:19
  Kayte Nunn: um, yeah, you try, you just try not to, y- you know, ignore the, the voice on your shoulder that tells you what you're
• 32:24
  video1596645673: is
• 32:24
  Kayte Nunn: a waste of time or no good, and then ignore, ignore the haters
• 32:28
  video1596645673: there's, yeah, there's
• 32:29
  Kayte Nunn: no point in dwelling on that
• 32:31
  video1596645673: One of the things I always tell debut writers is just not to check Goodreads, or have someone
• 32:37
  Madeleine Cleary: that will
• 32:37
  video1596645673: filter through the good ones and read you those.
• 32:41
  video1596645673: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Kayte Nunn: I think the other thing to do is go onto Goodreads and look at the reviews of a book you think
• 32:45
  video1596645673: absolutely incredible- Yeah and one of the best books you've ever read,
• 32:48
  Kayte Nunn: and, you know, and read
• 32:49
  video1596645673: one
• 32:49
  Kayte Nunn: and two-star reviews, and then you go,"Ah, okay.
• 32:51
  Kayte Nunn: You know what?
• 32:51
  Kayte Nunn: Everybody's got an opinion," and it doesn't make them right in your mind.
• 32:55
  video1596645673: Yes, exactly.
• 32:56
  video1596645673: Exactly.
• 32:56
  video1596645673: Can you tell us about your publication day of
• 32:59
  Madeleine Cleary: The Yacht?
• 33:00
  video1596645673: So what you, you mentioned that you were in Spain- Ah, yeah which is a really nice place to be.
• 33:03
  video1596645673: I,
• 33:04
  Kayte Nunn: I, I'd got the dates wrong as well,'cause I think the dates
• 33:07
  video1596645673: changed.
• 33:07
  Kayte Nunn: So I was in Spain staying with some friends, quite coincidentally, um,'cause I haven't been to Europe in a very long time and I just did a, a...
• 33:15
  video1596645673: just come back from a big
• 33:16
  Kayte Nunn: six-week trip.
• 33:17
  Kayte Nunn: And, um, and
• 33:18
  video1596645673: looked on the thing, I was like,
• 33:19
  Kayte Nunn: I
• 33:19
  video1596645673: my God, that's today." So I made a quick video,
• 33:22
  Kayte Nunn: and I had no makeup on.
• 33:23
  Kayte Nunn: I'd been sunbathing all day.
• 33:24
  Kayte Nunn: I'd had a lovely long boozy lunch.
• 33:25
  Kayte Nunn: I was like,"Oh goodness,
• 33:26
  video1596645673: publication day and here I am in Spain." Wait, so you forgot?
• 33:28
  Madeleine Cleary: Oh, no, in
• 33:29
  video1596645673: Spain.
• 33:29
  video1596645673: Okay.
• 33:29
  video1596645673: I just got Yeah, I
• 33:30
  Kayte Nunn: just
• 33:31
  video1596645673: got the dates wrong-
• 33:32
  Kayte Nunn: um,
• 33:33
  video1596645673: for
• 33:33
  Kayte Nunn: the, um, I
• 33:34
  video1596645673: it was
• 33:34
  Kayte Nunn: the Australian publication date,
• 33:35
  video1596645673: 'cause
• 33:36
  Kayte Nunn: I think it had changed.
• 33:37
  Kayte Nunn: So, um, yeah, that was quite funny.
• 33:38
  Kayte Nunn: And then afterwards I was
• 33:39
  video1596645673: "Oh my gosh,
• 33:40
  Kayte Nunn: here I
• 33:40
  video1596645673: Who would
• 33:40
  Kayte Nunn: have thought
• 33:41
  video1596645673: I started
• 33:42
  Kayte Nunn: writing this, you know, 18 months or so ago, I'd actually be in Spain on publication day?
• 33:46
  Kayte Nunn: That was
• 33:47
  video1596645673: special.
• 33:47
  video1596645673: Oh, and I love that you just didn't even plan it.
• 33:50
  video1596645673: It was just- that
• 33:50
  Madeleine Cleary: that was the way it was gonna be.
• 33:52
  video1596645673: was the way it was meant to be.
• 33:53
  video1596645673: It was like it was meant to be.
• 33:53
  video1596645673: It was.
• 33:53
  video1596645673: I hope you had a copy of it that you could take a photo.
• 33:56
  video1596645673: I
• 33:56
  Kayte Nunn: didn't because I was traveling.
• 33:57
  Kayte Nunn: I'd, I'd left, uh, Australia before I had any, um, any
• 34:01
  video1596645673: copies.
• 34:01
  video1596645673: So I
• 34:01
  Kayte Nunn: didn't see them
• 34:02
  video1596645673: I
• 34:02
  Kayte Nunn: came home again.
• 34:03
  Kayte Nunn: So that was kind of nice.
• 34:04
  Kayte Nunn: It was like an extra special present when I got back
• 34:07
  video1596645673: Aw.
• 34:07
  video1596645673: That's so, so lovely.
• 34:09
  video1596645673: Um, okay, so we always, um, finish our podcast asking writers what their number one tip is.
• 34:16
  video1596645673: Um, so Kayte, what is your number one top tip for writers?
• 34:21
  video1596645673: Look, I've got
• 34:21
  Kayte Nunn: so many, but, um, I think the most thing is, is learn your craft and learn about the industry.
• 34:29
  video1596645673: Um,
• 34:30
  Kayte Nunn: so go to other book- people's book launches.
• 34:34
  Kayte Nunn: Um, do
• 34:35
  video1596645673: writing workshops.
• 34:36
  Kayte Nunn: There's loads of resources online.
• 34:39
  video1596645673: about Read craft
• 34:40
  Kayte Nunn: books about writing.
• 34:41
  Kayte Nunn: Um, you
• 34:42
  video1596645673: and, and
• 34:43
  Kayte Nunn: realize that, um, nobody ever, you know, came out of, of,
• 34:48
  video1596645673: know,
• 34:48
  Kayte Nunn: suddenly sat down one day and
• 34:50
  video1596645673: "I'm gonna
• 34:50
  Kayte Nunn: be a writer," and writes a perfect first draft.
• 34:53
  Kayte Nunn: Um, you
• 34:54
  video1596645673: it's
• 34:54
  Kayte Nunn: don't be, uh, don't
• 34:56
  video1596645673: your first draft
• 34:57
  Kayte Nunn: with other writers' finished products.
• 34:59
  Kayte Nunn: There's absolutely
• 35:00
  video1596645673: point.
• 35:00
  Kayte Nunn: It takes a lot of work.
• 35:01
  Kayte Nunn: And be prepared to, to do the work.
• 35:03
  Kayte Nunn: Once the first draft is written, that's actually when the work starts, not when
• 35:06
  video1596645673: think,
• 35:07
  Kayte Nunn: "Great, I've done it.
• 35:07
  Kayte Nunn: Can I hand it over to somebody else?" And I've come across
• 35:10
  video1596645673: who've done
• 35:10
  Kayte Nunn: that.
• 35:11
  video1596645673: like,"Well, you know, I'm done now.
• 35:13
  Kayte Nunn: Here you go." And it's like, no, no, no.
• 35:14
  Kayte Nunn: This is where the work really starts
• 35:16
  Madeleine Cleary: Mm.
• 35:17
  Madeleine Cleary: How do you go
• 35:18
  video1596645673: How do you think that writers can go about and find that community?
• 35:21
  video1596645673: 'Cause a lot of writers don't have a writing community, especially when
• 35:24
  Madeleine Cleary: you're starting out.
• 35:25
  video1596645673: What, what would you recommend?
• 35:26
  video1596645673: Yes, and I think
• 35:26
  Kayte Nunn: also if you,
• 35:27
  video1596645673: live regionally, it can be quite
• 35:29
  Kayte Nunn: difficult because a lot of
• 35:30
  video1596645673: seems to
• 35:30
  Kayte Nunn: happen in the
• 35:31
  video1596645673: cities.
• 35:32
  video1596645673: But there'll be a bookshop near you.
• 35:34
  Kayte Nunn: There'll be a library that has events.
• 35:35
  Kayte Nunn: I mean, I live
• 35:36
  video1596645673: quite remotely, and our library
• 35:38
  Kayte Nunn: has some incredible events with writers.
• 35:39
  Kayte Nunn: Try and go along
• 35:40
  video1596645673: those.
• 35:41
  Kayte Nunn: You
• 35:41
  video1596645673: even
• 35:41
  Kayte Nunn: connect with writers
• 35:42
  video1596645673: social media.
• 35:43
  video1596645673: If you
• 35:43
  Kayte Nunn: liked one of their books, send them a message, that kind of thing.
• 35:46
  Kayte Nunn: Um, yeah, there's, there's a lot you can do.
• 35:48
  Kayte Nunn: Uh, and then there's a huge amount of
• 35:50
  video1596645673: online
• 35:51
  Kayte Nunn: that are free even if you don't have, the, the funds to, to do workshops.
• 35:56
  Kayte Nunn: There's a huge amount of resources online.
• 35:58
  Kayte Nunn: Um, you know, your local library probably has some craft books that you can order or reserve
• 36:02
  video1596645673: as well.
• 36:03
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 36:03
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 36:03
  video1596645673: Do you have any that are your favorite?
• 36:05
  video1596645673: 'Cause you mentioned they were- I- helpful at the start.
• 36:07
  Kayte Nunn: I do.
• 36:07
  Kayte Nunn: Um, there is a book by Donald Maass called The Emotional Craft
• 36:11
  video1596645673: Fiction.
• 36:11
  video1596645673: Mm.
• 36:12
  video1596645673: And I've read
• 36:13
  Kayte Nunn: that two or
• 36:13
  video1596645673: times
• 36:14
  Kayte Nunn: now and always go back
• 36:15
  video1596645673: and it's
• 36:15
  Kayte Nunn: very helpful.
• 36:16
  video1596645673: Okay.
• 36:17
  video1596645673: I will pop that into the show notes.
• 36:19
  video1596645673: That's a really, really important one.
• 36:21
  video1596645673: Um, Kayte, thank you so for joining us.
• 36:23
  video1596645673: You've given us so many great tips.
• 36:25
  video1596645673: Um, and if you want to escape from Australia's winter- buy a copy of The Yacht, in bookshops now.
• 36:33
  video1596645673: Thank you so much, Kayte, for on.
• 36:34
  video1596645673: Oh, Thanks,
• 36:35
  Kayte Nunn: Madeleine.
• 36:35
  Kayte Nunn: Thanks for chatting to
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
• 36:41
  Speaker 5: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast