Latest / SkyTalkDoc / E274 Are Psychotic Voices Demons? & The Clancy Case
Transcript
- Dr. Michaela: Jerry, welcome to the Sky Talk Doc podcast. The timing is so awesome because there is such a cool case that's playing out on the national news, and that is the Can Clancy trial. I first learned about you from listening to some of the other podcasts that you've been on, the mace energy that you're working with, your background in working with severe psychosis and schizophrenics. I am really excited to talk about this sort of stuff with you today. Can you share with the listeners a little bit about who you are and how you got to where you are today? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well my name's Jerry Marzinski. I've been a a licensed psychotherapist. I've been on the front lines of mental health for forty five more than forty five years. And I've been been working with schizophrenics and studying their thought processes, especially the voices that they hear. You know, tr trying to figure out what are those things. And they're not auditory hallucinations like the psychiatric mafia tells you. I've worked in some of the most volatile psychiatric institutions on the planet, the biggest psychiatric hospital in the US if not the world, Central State and and Georgia. I'm a commercial air airplane pilot. certified scuba diver, a long-distance motorcyclist, held the rank of second lieutenant in the Arizona Civil Air Patrol. I was assistant Scout Master. I was awarded the State of Arizona's Meritorious Service Award and the Pima College Apple Award for teaching abnormal psychology. I've got a BA in psychology from Temple University, a master's degree in counseling from the University of Georgia. and two years in a PhD program. I'm the co-author of An Amazing Journey Through the Psychotic Mind, Breaking the Spell of the Ivory Tower, and I'm currently in private practice using the Mesa Energy Method, an energetic psychotherapy, cutting edge stuff. Dr. Michaela: Well, we have a lot in common 'cause I too am a commercial pilot and I also worked in psychiatric mental health, although not to the level that you did, which is what really impressed me. I have also seen the way, you know, the demons come out. The eyes go black, and something takes over. And I've had I you know, I was just sharing I've had tampons thrown at me, pulled out of of hoo-ha's and thrown at my face. I've Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well, but Dr. Michaela: I've kind of been through the ringer on psychiatric mental health. And I think you touched on something important, which is the voices and what they really are. and so I'm I'm looking forward to you sharing more on that experience. And then just to kind of frame a little bit about the Clancy case and get your perspective there, 'cause it is so prevalent right now. You know, the there was there's been talks that she heard a male voice telling her to do something. In looking at that case from from my lens, there's so many things that are very Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Okay. Dr. Michaela: suspicious, like the you know, the ability for someone to overcome the fight or flight response and try three different ways to kill themselves and also the maternal instinct that would override and and wipe out three kids in the amount of time. I mean, there's a lot to that case that is very suspicious in terms of the length of time that she supposedly had, not to mention, you know, crushing pills. I don't think a nurse would necessarily crush pills to consume them, so I found that very suspicious. Lots of curiosities about that. fill me in on what you believe the voices are, and then what's your current theories on the Clancy case as well. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well, I have no doubt in my mind after studying those voices, that the schizophrenics here for almost a half a century, these things are demons. They are individual entities, negative entities, and they are also parasites. They they insert negative thoughts into the person's mind that often sound just like the thousands of other thoughts that go through their mind on a given day. And so the person thinks that those thoughts belong to them. And that's what they want them to think. So what they do is they create as much uproar and negative emotion as they possibly can and that's what they feed off of. So after studying what how schizophrenics felt before the voices came and after they came, there was a statistically significant difference between their energy level that they perceived after the voices came. Virtually all of them felt drained after being attacked by the voices. But they didn't know that what the cause of it was. It was being hidden from them. there's a one to one correspondence. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: have to ask you so the the how do they enter how what is in your perspective the portal for which these I mean I've thought I've I've heard of things like spirits right drinking hard liquor different things like that different psychiatric medications or drugs what what is your belief on how the demon narrative voices entities enter into the embodied spirit and and and proceed? How does that work? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: There's a number of different ways, but I think the biggest one is trauma. You know, physical, emotional, sexual trauma. Okay? Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Because what it does, trauma lowers the frequency of the individual. Okay? They're they're depressed, they're sad, something bad has happened, they don't know how to cope with it, their their energy is drained, they're down in the dumps. That their their psychic guards are down. Okay. So when the spirit s or the spirit of the individual starts lowering to the low frequency of these entities, then they can get in. Another big one is Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Mm. Okay, so it's almost like it's almost like they tune into the frequency that they can s that they can seamlessly transfer in. And Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yes, th that that allows them access because they're now on a similar frequency. But they're like sharks in the ocean. They s you know, smelling blood. They are attracted to low frequency people. Dr. Michaela: Okay. And so wha what, is is it only one that can kind of latch on to a human or is there more? Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: no. No. I've I've worked with people where there were hundreds, literally hundreds. Dr. Michaela: Of distinct and unique voices. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yes, they would sound like crowds screaming, like you go to a football game or something. They they sound like that. Dr. Michaela: Wow. And and using your MACE protocol, have you been able to successfully detach these entities from the person? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: in about fifteen percent of the cases. You know, we Dr. Michaela: Interesting. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: we were able to do that. Now that's that doesn't sound like much, but it's much higher than s psychiatry's success rate, which is virtually nothing. You know, all all Dr. Michaela: Well if I Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: they do is suppress the symptoms. Dr. Michaela: Right. And if I think about the the medications in general, that could be also a potential risk for lowering the frequency, right? Like just just using the medications in and of themselves could do that. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yeah, because they're they're w what they are is major tranquilizers. They're Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: all they're only aimed at reducing the symptoms. So that's that's why they put these people on these drugs and the voices get lower. Sometimes very seldom, but sometimes they completely go away. And then when the person gets sick of the awful side effects and they stop taking within a week or two the voices are right back again, harder than that what they were before. So nobody's being cured. by these psychiatric medications. They are actually toxic to the central nervous system. You know, they're they're slowly killing brain cells. You know So they people get what they call echinaasia, which is their central nervous system actually rotting out. You know, Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that's permanent psychiatric neurological damage to the brain and the nervous system of the patient. And what I watched when I was working at the state hospital was they wouldn't back off on the mess medicines. What they do is give them cogentin to mask the symptoms of the echinasia so they wouldn't feel it. Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: The nervous system is still being rotted out by these medications. And they would never tell the patient that. Dr. Michaela: So the fifteen percent success, what do you think contributes to the fifteen percent that kind of have, you know, a positive outcome? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: What what MACE does, it's a energetic psychotherapy. So it works with energy. Everything is energy. I mean everything is energy. MACE works with negative identities, which is negative energy, which often is instilled during a trauma. So what it does is it takes that energy and like if you get a car battery, you can get a brand new car battery, charge it up full, and if you drain that battery down to nothing, It goes dead and it stays dead. So mace Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: does that with the negative identity, which is negative energy. It will dr Dr. Michaela: Got it. Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: drain it down to nothing. So it is basically discreated. When we're done, it's not it's not there anymore. It's Dr. Michaela: It extinguishes it. Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: it's gone. Dr. Michaela: Right. How did you come to this protocol? How did you come to kind of learn this? I know you did thousands and thousands of studies or or you you've thousands and thousands of patients. How did you come to find that this worked effectively to counter some of these these voices? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well, I tried it. I'm still in in private practice using the Mace Energy method. This it's cutting edge stuff. And I've been looking for something like this my entire career. You Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: know, I went through undergraduate school, I went through counseling, you know, but when you got onto the front lines in in these psychiatric hospitals or the or the emergency rooms or mental health centers, using that stuff's like trying to shoot a Good of Rhino off the road with a BB rifle. You know, this stuff is fast, it's accurate, it it's permanent results, and it happens very quickly. It's almost like magic. Mays understood the mind. You know, he found that the mind doesn't do what people think it does. It it doesn't do the reasoning or the thinking or the talking or the figuring things out. What the mind does is take pictures of where you put your attention. The spirit does everything else. It's the spirit that talks and reasons and you know, does all the things that people think the mind does. They're two different things. Dr. Michaela: So so let me ask you this. Positive thoughts, right? Non-intrusive thoughts, are less frequent in most people. Where do the where do the positive Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Mm-hmm. Dr. Michaela: frequencies or positive thoughts come from? And how can people harness more of those? Let's say it's the general populace who's not suffering from psychotic breaks or or voices hallucinations. The positive tonality, the the the good that we can create, where how do they harness it? Where does it come from? And why is the negative entities more powerful? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well, that was one of my first questions too. You know, so what I ran into was a fellow who lived three hundred years ago. He was a Christian mystic by the name Dr. Michaela: No. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: of Emanuel Swedenborg. Okay? So he was one of the top scientists of his day. He was the chief mining engineer for the Queen of Sweden. He was psychic, he was precognitive. his father was a preacher and You know, he w he went to all the f big universities of the day all over Europe. You know. So he was like the Leonardo da Vinci of his day. And working as a mining engineer for the Queen of Sweden, making her a fortune with all the stuff that he invented and patented patented. And he was a prolific writer. You know. So at the age of fifty He said Christ appeared to him and said, Okay, knock off all this scientific stuff. I'm gonna give you access to heaven and hell. I want you to go talk to the people there, you know, and write about what they have to say so the people on the planet could see what these things are like. Okay. So what originated from that there was a clinical psychologist. See, I was I was messing with all this stuff at the state hospital and then in the state prison when I was working with the psychology department at the state prison. And I saw these patterns that these voices were running. They were they were running repetitive, consistent patterns. And I thought that's odd. Anything that's running patterns it can't be a hallucination. Repeatable patterns, you know. Dr. Michaela: Right. Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So one of the first ones I saw was that these things were consistently negative. Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: They were always abusive, they were insulting, derogatory, destructive, you know. And it it it never changed from that. So I th first question I asked is what holds them on a negative trajectory? Why aren't they random, like all their hallucinations? Why aren't some positive, some neutral? some negative. Why isn't there that spread? It it wasn't there. They were all negative, consistently negative all the time. And if they said anything good, it was just to get the person's attention to and their their to get the person to believe that they were something good and they had special powers. Once they hooked then they stabbed them in back. Okay? So Dr. Michaela: wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: so there was that consistent pattern. The next and con consistent pattern came up was they were anti religious. They didn't want the person reading the Bible. They didn't want them going to church. They didn't want them s doing Bible study. They didn't want them talking to preachers. You know, they were driving people out of the church, you know. And and that was that was strange. It was like what kind of hallucination would be anti religious? You know? Dr. Michaela: Right, right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So here's two patterns that were consistent with among all the schizophrenics. The third one is they foster and create negative emotion. You know, all that negative stuff is aimed at getting the person upset. So they generate that negative emotion that's at their frequency and then they consume it. You know, so so you talk to these guys and you'd say, Well, okay, a how much energy do you have before the voices come and how much do you have after? Virtually all of them would say afterward my energy's gone, drained. One guy said, I felt like I was digging ditches in the hot sun all day after the voices come. They're Dr. Michaela: So they're energetic vampires. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: energetic vampires. So these guys after the voices come they all felt you know no energy, you know, completely energetically eviscerated. But then when you ask Dr. Michaela: You know, I've had Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: them, you'd ask well where'd your energy go? They would say, I don't know. And I'd say, Well wait a second here, there's a one-to-one correspondence. You've been hearing these things for ten years. They've come to you thousands of times, and every time they've come, your energy disappeared. Where do you think your energy's going? You know what they said? I don't know. Dr. Michaela: Have had to deal with some some legal stuff lately. And every time that I'm in the courtroom around kind of some of these, I'll say negative people, you know, narcissistic, maladaptive, like just not good holistic, true, positive vibration. I can feel it. After dealing with that experience, I am tanked. I am absolutely tanked. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Hmm. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: And I wonder if it's similar, like as if, you know, Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yes. Dr. Michaela: it's not a voice that I'm hearing, but it's an energy that I'm dealing with. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yes, exactly. I ran into that too when I was working in the prison. I found Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that if I've worked with more than two schizophrenics in a day, I came home and I was drained. I didn't Dr. Michaela: Exhaust it. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: have any energy to do anything. So Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that they will drain the people around them too. And I I didn't Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: know I didn't know what was causing that to start with. I just felt it consistently and after that I made a rule to myself, I'm gonna only see one or two of these guys a day. up because if I saw any more, I was worthless at the end of the day. Dr. Michaela: Wow. And so they seem to have some awareness that the voice is real. It's it's not created in and of them. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: That's what they've been trying to tell psychiatry f for hundreds of years. You know, a hundred years they've been trying to tell that they're real. They are real. You know. They're they're Dr. Michaela: It's Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: functioning at a a different frequency. Dr. Michaela: I think I I've actually had some thoughts, you know, when you think about things like Sasquatch, you know, Bigfoot or whatever, that they're also on a different frequency and sometimes that frequency crosses into our visual f sphere, but that they're always there, you know, they're just operating on a different Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: frequency or something. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well that's how these things are. They're always there. They don't just hit schizophrenics, they hit all of us. You know, have you ever been minding your own business and somebody cuts you off in the car and then all of a sudden it's That's them. You know? They they're always putting stuff in and if you get depressed or anxious or feeling you know your frequency starts lowering, they start feeding more to set you off, to generate Dr. Michaela: A latch on. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that negative energy. Dr. Michaela: Golly, what are things that like regular people can do to ward off this negative frequencies and vibration when they they start to cream it? And I agree, you know, the the phrase, even when it rains, it pours, right? Like it's like it's almost as if once you allow that thought in, Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Mm-hmm. Dr. Michaela: then they all pile on, you know? What what can the regular person do to ward? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well y you have to realize that virtually all negative thoughts come from them. Okay? So you know, we're we're led to believe that all thoughts that come into our head are ours. You know, we're well, if they're in your head, where else could could they be? You know? But nobody's ever found a thought in anybody's mind. You know. These things are like radio waves. They're tuned to a certain frequency. And when something bad happens to you, your frequency drops and and then there's a mesh. Okay? Dr. Michaela: You know, it's interesting. I just started a playlist on my YouTube called Brain Health and I've been putting in different like biurnal beats and different things like that that reduce cortisol, panda drum, meta d you know, Tibetan monk music and you know, just different things like this to reduce stress, et cetera. And it seems like maybe then introducing a positive frequency might help counter some of this stuff. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yeah, it's three six nine, they don't like that frequency. You know, they Dr. Michaela: Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: don't like any positive frequency. You know, it it's it's like eating dirt or something. I mean they they don't like anything positive. They don't like positive people. They'll go after people like us who are a threat to them. Okay. And and I can Dr. Michaela: Yeah, I feel that. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I can feel when they're around. It's like this Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: eighty electrical energy. Matter of Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: fact I was working with a gal in Greece and Her room turned icy cold, she had to go get a jacket and put it on. On this end I was feeling that icky electrical energy. It's kinda like there's no other feeling like it. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. I call zingers. It's like zingers. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yeah, it's like icky you know, you you feel it, it's you it's it's icky tingling that Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you're referring to. And so how does the Mace protocol work? What what does it do? And tell me about Mace, like him as you know, the in the inventor creator. Tell me about that as well. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Okay, let me tell you how 'cause I was in denial over this these pattern things for years. I mean it's twenty five or thirty years. I did not want to believe in negative entities or demons or anything like that. I was brainwashed like everybody else, going through undergraduate and graduate school and in service training, hundreds of hours. Yeah, these are you know, auditory hallucinations. When I got to the this giant psychiatric hospital I saw that these people were carrying on long, coherent conversations with whatever they were hearing. Okay? And it was like that wasn't auditory hallucination. I w I talk was watching one lady while the voices were telling her to leave the hospital grounds, she's walking off the hospital grounds, arguing with the voices that she didn't want to leave the hospital grounds and that she was gonna get in trouble. You know? So that's kind of that Dr. Michaela: Wow. So that's that's higher cognitive reasoning. That's not a a a remote control, right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well, the the voices had taken control. She knew Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: what what was happening, just like Lindsay. You know. She Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: she she told you know, listen, this is happening. I'm having trouble controlling it. It's getting worse. They're telling me to kill my kids. You know, so what psychiatry did is what they always do, they drug you down, turn you loose. You know. So they don't believe that these things are entities either. You know. Now I've run into guys in the prison like that that committed some kind of horrible crime with the voices telling and once they did it, they didn't remember they did it because they didn't do it. The voices did it. But since they were in them, the judge throws everybody in prison. And the prison is a very negative environment. Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So what happened after these these patterns kept coming up in the prison? First thing I ran into was was resistance from psychiatry because when I was working at the the big psychiatric hospital, nobody was curious about what these voices were. There's hundreds of staff there. Not a single one of them was curious about what these voices were telling these patients, how they operated, what they were, you know, and they're the chief symptom of paranoid schizophrenia. The very the number one. They should have been researched up the yin-yang. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: They were dismissed as auditory hallucinations with no research from anybody, nobody in psychiatry, nobody in the universities, nobody anywhere. They're Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: just auditory hallucinations because they said so. So I started asking these patients myself, what are these things telling you? How do they operate? What do they feel like? I started asking them all kinds of questions. And all this information about these patterns started coming up. And then one time I asked w one guy who was he was pretty well eaten up by these things. The voices didn't like me asking him questions. They told him, He already knows too much. Don't tell him anything anymore. And I didn't stop asking. So he went to the psychiatrist and he told the psychiatrist that I was asking him questions that upset him. Okay. Next morning about Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: the voices. Next morning I ended up in the psychiatrist's office. You know, with him saying you will not ask these patients any questions about the voices. They're auditory hallucinations. You're making these patients worse by asking them questions about You're reinforcing their reality. You know. Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And by then I knew that they weren't auditory hallucinations. But you can't Dr. Michaela: Mm mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: you can't say anything to psychiatrists. They're arrogant as a day is long. They refuse Dr. Michaela: Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: to be challenged by anybody below them at all. You know. So I had to be real careful there. But that happened twice at the state hospital. I was told not even to look into it. When I got to the state prison, you know, here in Arizona, that s a complaint like that from an inmate wouldn't even break the the surface. I mean it just th if if a if a psychotic inmate went and told the warden, Hey, he's asking me questions about the voices I didn't like, they they problem, go go play in the traffic. Get out of here. I got other sh to do, you know, just it doesn't Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: even you know, so what I had was a group of like ten or or seventeen schizophrenic prisoners that I was working with all the time that I had a deal with that if if they would tell me what the voices were telling them in real time, as they came into their heads, I would do everything I could to help them. Okay. Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So we had a a good deal, and they didn't know each other. So that's where these patterns started coming up. So I went after a while, I went, Well, what would happen if I started interfering with these patterns? Because they're consistent. You know. Dr. Michaela: Right, right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: It it's almost like all these voices were made from some cosmic cookie cutter somewhere. And they're Dr. Michaela: Yep. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: all programmed for this kind of stuff. You know, what do they call it? An operational definition? These patterns? So I started Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep. A coding. It's a code. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Code. I started interfering with these patterns. You know, I'd I'd give them stuff like the voices consistently hated the twenty-third Psalm. So I'd give hand out copies of the 23rd Psalm. I said, read this when the voices come. Come back next week and tell me what happened. You know? Or do and and there was bad reactions. You know, everything I tried there were bad reactions to. They didn't like it. So they started coming back and going, the voices don't like us coming here. I mean one after another after another. They didn't know each other. You know, it was a pretty big Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: unit. So th they didn't know each other. So they all these were all individual reports. All right? Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So they came back and they go, the voices don't like us coming here. You know? They they're they're thinking you're crazy, you're stupid, don't listen to you. And they would get strongest when they got up in the morning to come for their session. They would Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: do everything they could to de to deter them from coming, but not Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: not a single one of them backed out. And every once in a while they would they would stay in bed that day because they felt so bad, but they'd eventually come back. Dr. Michaela: Right. Yep. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Okay? So that that didn't work. So here's here they're all coming, you know, one after another after another. The voices don't like what you're doing. They're telling us not to come here. They're they're, you know, doing everything they could to to mess us up. And it was then one day, one guy that was one of that group He came to my office. He knocked on the door. I didn't send him a pass. So I don't know even know how he got into the medical unit, but he did, because he didn't have a pass to be there. He knocks on my door. I open the door and I'm like, Huh, hey dude, what are you what are you doing here? I th I didn't send you a pass. He goes, the voices want to talk to you. Dr. Michaela: wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And I'm like, The what? Yeah, they they want to talk to me personally? He said, Yeah, they want to talk to you personally. That never happened before. I all Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: the interaction would go you know, I'd tell the client, you know, tell them, you know, go to hell or whatever and they'd tell me the voices are telling telling me to tell you you're a shithead or it w they weren't nice. They weren't very nice. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: You know. So it always went through the client, like the interpreter. This was the first time that they ever wanted to address me in person. Mono and mano. Dr. Michaela: W monoe mono. Like the movie Ghost. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So I I invited him in and I was like a little bit weirded out. It's like closed the door, sat down, I'm like, Well, what do they got to say? These words came out of his mouth. You have no right to interfere with our way of life. Boom. My my my denial system, which was already in tatters, it was already destroyed, collapsed. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And and I just sat there and I said, well tell them something. I I don't know what it was. And he looked at me, he goes, I don't have to tell anything. They can hear everything you're saying. They can see you. Which I wasn't sure that was the case. I thought I had to talk to the client for them to hear me, which would then transmit the information to whatever was in their head. No. They said, they can see you, they can hear you. know, that's that blew me away too. And that's after twenty five or thirty years of working with these guys, you know. So after he left, my denial system shattered. I was in shock. I cancelled all my appointments for the rest of the day and just stared out the window. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: But I didn't stop. You know, I s I kept seeing these guys. And then I was reading a book called the The Voice of Knowledge by Miguel Ru Ruiz, who was a South American s shaman. And he was talking about these things Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Yep. Yep. Yeah. He wrote the four agreements as well. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: He was talking about these things being parasites. Right? So I Dr. Michaela: Yep. Yep. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: brought that book into the prison and I brought in another inmate that I had been working closely with and I said, Hey, I wanna read you this paragraph. I want you to tell me what you think about it, because I was always battering these guys with hundreds of questions. What about this? What about that? What did they say here? How'd they react here? Da da da da. You know, it's always hitting them with with hundreds of questions. So I read that thing, and when I got to the part when I got to the part where he was talking about them being energetic parasites, this guy just went stiff s dark still and he's just staring at me with these zombie like eyes. You know, just Not not even blinking, just staring at me. And then I'm I'm like looking at waiting for a response and there wasn't any. And then behind my back I hear this loud electrical crackling. It sounded just like a welder, you know, electric welder. Yeah, just crack, crack, crack, crack. You know like what what the frick's going on? And then it's it moves out from behind my back and goes to the right and i I can hear it cracking along the wall. And then it starts crackling all the way up the the right wall and I'm looking and I don't see anything. I don't smell anything. You know, I don't feel anything. I just hear this loud crackling. And it wasn't short. It just kept going. Went all the Dr. Michaela: Uh-huh. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: way up the right wall. And I'm looking at it, but I was afraid he was gonna attack because he looks like some kind of whizzed out zombie. I push my chair against the back wall just in case so I could kick him away. And trying to keep my attention split between what he's doing and this crackling. And it crackles all the way up to the ceiling, and then it cuts across the top of the office where I can see him and follow the noise at the same time. And it just keeps going. It was like twenty seconds or thirty seconds. It wasn't short. I couldn't explain it away. It just kept going. And I asked him, I said, Do you hear that? And he doesn't respond. He's just staring at me. Just like a zombie. I mean it was like what's going on with him? And then it starts crackling down the left hand wall and we're near where I'm sitting and it's coming down toward me and I'm like, okay, what's gonna happen when it gets here? And it jumps into this rubber made trash can right. right by my r left leg and I bend over and I look in there, there's nothing there. You know, it's just the empty plastic bag the inmate porter had changed it the night before. And it's crackling in the trash can. And then all of a sudden as fast as it started, just boom and it was gone. It stopped. And I'm like you know, I'm like freaked out. And I look at him and he slowly gets up and he goes, I gotta leave. And he st Stood up and he shuffled out of the office. He didn't walk, he shuffled, like drug his feet down the hall. And I'm like, Yeah, go yeah, go, get get out of here And I'm shocked. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, go yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I'm like, what just happened? You know, I'm like, Am I starting to lose my mind? What is going on here? Dr. Michaela: Right, right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And I got up and I examined the walls to see if there were any burn marks on it, because the only thing I could attribute that sound to was an arc welder which is mighty hot. No, there were no burn marks. There's no evidence that that ever existed. So I went out in the hall to the doctor's office. The doctors weren't in yet. The nurses weren't in yet. The the only person that in was the the guard, the female guard down the end of the hall, and there was no cause that would have I could have that could have caused that. You know? And I'm sitting there totally shocked, blown away. I'm like, what the hell just happened? And I stunned again. So here was another psychic shock. And I'm like, close my office again. I'm sitting there going, Am I losing my mind? And I couldn't tell anybody about this. Dr. Michaela: Mm-mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: You know, it it it like you know, if I told them, they'd go, You're nuts. You know, you're losing you're getting crazy. Go get some medicine or something. And, you know, I I don't know, I was wondering myself whether I was, you know, or not, but you know, messing through these guys' heads. And so I was confused and I was shook up. And I was shocked. Yeah. So it was like three or four months before I had the guts to call this guy in again. I pulled him in and he looked good. I I thought he would be wiped out, you know, so it's if it's something like that was in him, it was probably Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: sucking him dry and I was expecting him to be completely eviscerated. No. Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: He looked good. He had plenty of energy. You know, I said, Come on in, have a seat and he he looked normal. You know, like the guy I worked with before this all happened. And we did a little small talk and then I asked him, I said, do you remember the last time you were in here? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, Did you hear that crackling sound? And he said, Yeah, I heard it, but I surprised you did. Surprised I did. And that was a great relief, because another human had heard it. It wasn't Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: just me. Now if he said no, I didn't hear anything, then I'd it'd be like Dr. Michaela: yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So he heard it and I asked him, Well, what in the blazes was that? And he said, That was them. I said, them who? The voices? He said, Yeah, those were the voices. And I said, well w what in the dickens were they doing? He said, They were trying to scare you off. And I said, Well they did the damn good job of it. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So I said, what are you asking me after that? I asked him, I said, You look you looked weird when you left my office that day. I mean you your eyes looked gla glazed over, you kinda shuffled out of the office. I said, What were the voices telling you when you were leaving my office? He said they were telling to g telling me to go get a shank and stick it in your gut. Yeah, and I'm like, yeah, I did I went, he wouldn't do that. I've been working with him for six months. I know this guy pretty well. He wouldn't do something like that. And then I asked him, I said, Well, well, why didn't you do it? And he said, I couldn't find one and nobody would give me one. Dr. Michaela: wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So this is when I knew without a a shadow of a doubt that these things were dangerous entities. You know. Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: These were the same things that took over Lindsay. Dr. Michaela: I was gonna ask, so ultimately you believe that it it was some sort of a demonic entity then that or maybe more than one. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever. None. Zero. And Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I've talked to prisoners who did nasty things. You know they hurt people, they killed people, the voices told them to. And after they had done the thing, they kind of woke up from it and it's like, what happened? Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: They didn't even remember doing it. You know, Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I I remember one guy, and this was the first time I got a hint of this. i he's a prisoner, he was psychotic, he was hearing voices, he was depressed, the voices were telling him to kill himself. You know, nothing's going right for you, everybody hates you, you know, ba da da da da da da da da da da da da da da Just get it over with and kill yourself. So he got a gun. Voices told him, you know, get in your car, take your gun. When you run out of gas, go out in the desert, find a isolated place and and shoot yourself. Just get it over with. So he did that. He ran out of gas. Walked out into the desert with with his gun, cocked a gun to to to to shoot himself, and he said this this strange bird came up onto a cactus near him and started screaming at him. And I said, What kind of bird was it? And he said, I don't know. He said I'd never seen a bird like that before in my life. You know, so it wasn't anything he recognized from you know being a desert bird. I said, Well that's odd. And He said it just kept screaming at him, so he said he took the gun and he shot at the bird. Okay. Scared the bird away. I said, Did you hit it? And he goes, No, I missed. And he he said he woke when the blast of the gun went off, he said he woke up and he had the gun in his hand and he realized what he was about to do and he said, What was what what had come over me? You know? So that's where Dr. Michaela: Interesting. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that's where that saying is like, you know, What what came over you or you know, the devil made me do it or you know that that stuff Dr. Michaela: Yeah. It Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: has has its foundations in this kind of stuff. Dr. Michaela: Interestingly enough, I just read a fascinating study and saw a really cool YouTube about ravens and crows. And they've actually been recording their conversations and and now they've been able to drop it into AI. And something that they have learned is not only do ravens have a sophisticated conversation, but they they name humans that are in their area and when you're Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And they remember them. Dr. Michaela: and when you're not there, they talk about you. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: really? Dr. Michaela: Yes. And so they yeah, so it just kind of Points to the fact that there's just so much that we have no clue about. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: yeah, yeah. Dr. Michaela: You know, there's so much there. And and the native the natives in Alaska actually f have have said this for centuries, you know, that the ravens hold special spiritual power, et cetera, et cetera. So I I think that's very interesting, you know, that they can detect death before it comes and all these different things. It's cause they're highly attuned to the people that are around them. So, and they're also smart. They use tools and things like that. But Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: yeah. Dr. Michaela: So presuming that that there's no suspicion with anybody else that might have been involved in the Clancy case and and that it does rest solely on Lindsay, you you believe that it's a demonic entity, maybe more than one. Wha how do you people describe that she was like a very loving, involved Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yes. Dr. Michaela: mother. So what would have been the thing that would have caused the psychotic break, do you believe? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well, I don't know, d I've heard what do you call p postpartum depression? You know, that that would Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. The postpartum depression. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that would do it. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, they call it postpartum psychosis, which is like a different version of a PPD. and there was a lot of different things on the DSM about Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yeah. Dr. Michaela: that. But so you think that it's it's something in the process of childbirth that maybe allowed the entity to gain access? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well it it would have been the depressure fr frequency. Dr. Michaela: got it. Okay. So the d the depressive frequency of the postpartum would have allowed the entity to attach and create the psychosis. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yes. Right. And plus the anxiety of having three kids and Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: and trying to hold it all together. You know, Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: so she was under a awful lot of stress. Not only yeah, some of the biggest, nastiest battles I've seen was between the voices telling mothers to kill their kids. And and they're fighting with the voices not to. I mean these were like epic battles. I mean, you know Dr. Michaela: Wow. Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: You know, that that maternal instinct, I mean, t that's that's hard to overcome. You know. Dr. Michaela: And so the Mace energy method introduces a frequency and vibration that is a counter to the negativity. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: What the MACE energy method does is this creates a trauma. Okay, so which is interesting. So the trauma is negative energy. Everything's energy. Your energy, your spirit's energy, your body's spirit, everything around you is energy. So MACE works with energy. You know, it works with negative energy. So what happens in a trauma is that there's a real bad feeling. It's a a negative episode that happens, it kinda knocks you off your feet. And after the incident it just stays there and it just rags on you. You know, like you just keep remunerating over and over again. Or why'd I do that? Or why did this have to happen or why'd this have to happen to me? Or just keeps going and going and going. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So at the time that trauma happens the person who has undergone the trauma makes a decision about their relationship to the trauma. Dr. Michaela: Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And it's never a good decision. It's always Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: a negative decision in relationship to the trauma. Because you're making a decision in a traumatic state. So that Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: decision is going to match that negative negativity at the time. Dr. Michaela: Got it. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So after after that trauma stays there long enough and it torments the person long enough, the ego shows up and goes, Hey, you're not doing real well with this. Let me handle it. Okay? So it takes it, it throws it into the subconscious, along with the decision, and locks it down but Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: it's not dead. It's still alive, it's still it's still up there, it's like a it's like a computer virus. It's operating behind the scenes. So there's it it also serves Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: like a landmine. Okay? So it can get triggered. And it takes a lot of energy to hold it up there. So what happens is when some it it's it's transmitting at a negative frequency. Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And then negative frequency matches the person who caused the trauma in the first place. Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So frequency attracts frequency. So this is like the person that you hate. There's a certain kind of person that just keeps showing up in your life over and over and over again. You can go from here to China and a Chinese one will show up with those same obnoxious traits. Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. huh. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: It's because that's being attracted by this negative energy up in the subconscious. Dr. Michaela: Like a magnet. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Like a magnet, okay? So it's it it's not dead. So it's affecting your life and you're not aware of it at this point because now it's subconscious. So Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: it interferes with your decisions, you know, how you feel, what you what you think, how you act, I mean it it it it's constantly running in the background. So it's like a it's like a fixed action pattern. It's sitting there waiting for that kind of person to show up and then it triggers. And once it triggers Dr. Michaela: Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: it tells you, hey, this guy's too close to the person who caused this in the first place. Get outta here. Get rid of them. You know, either attack them or run from them or avoid them. Okay. Dr. Michaela: okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So that always causes a disruption. Yeah. And it it becomes after a while it becomes like a it's a program. It's just sitting there waiting to be triggered. Okay? Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. huh. Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So every time a person like the person who triggers this guy shows up, there's an explosion, there's a disruption. Yeah. Dr. Michaela: Flips on the light switch. Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: It goes. It's like a a landmine that has Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: to have enough weight to trigger it. Okay? Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Right. So it sits up there. Negative energy. So what MACE does is it it it d actually discreates that negative identity. So we call it a negative identity because it's it's an id it's like a car driver. When you when you learn to drive, you now have a car driver identity. You have a pilot's identity. You can now Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: get in the plane and you can fly it because you're identified as a pilot to yourself. All right? Dr. Michaela: Right. Right. Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: As a psychologist. You know, you're another identity. So those Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: had those identities kick in when they need to. Okay? You turn Dr. Michaela: Got it. You turn it on. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: it on. You go, okay, I'm gonna get in this plane, I'm gonna do the pre s pre check, I'm gonna check the the magnetos, and whatever, check the flight controls. It's it's all automatic. It all runs off. It's just something you do. That's kind of negative identity does the same thing, but it does it in a negative way. Dr. Michaela: Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So considering that this is negative energy, you can look at it like a a car battery, okay, full of energy. But you can Dr. Michaela: huh. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: get a brand new car battery, you can charge it up full, okay, and if you drain it down to nothing, it you can't charge it up again. It's dead and it stays dead. Dr. Michaela: Yeah, it's gone. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well it's the same thing with a negative identity. Dr. Michaela: So you you you trigger it and drain it. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: the person tr well, w the therapist identifies it, you know. Now what Mays found, he was he wasn't a psychologist or a psychiatrist. He was a ship captain. Eventually got his master's in counseling. But he Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: always was wondering, woo how does the mind work? You know, so on these long v ocean trips, he would just read all this kind of stuff about you know, anything Dr. Michaela: Mm-hmm. Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that he thought would give him a trigger as to how the mind worked. And he wasn't brainwashed like we were in all this graduate school stuff. You know, you come out of there with your head full of all this crap that when you get out into the real world there's no match. You know, it's like w what the why'd they fill my head with this garbage? You know? It's like Dr. Michaela: He's just swasp swashbuckling on the sea and voyaging and reading and and learning and probably eastern medicine among western and mm-hmm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Yeah, yeah. Just following his gut, you know. Just going from place to place, just following his his feelings. You know. So you know, he found that the mind all the mind did was take pictures of where you put your attention. The spirit does the wrist. Okay? He had to be familiar with all kinds of different kinds of energy. you know, gravitational forces, wind forces, Dr. Michaela: Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: electricity, magnetism, I mean ev almost every kind of force to to keep one of these big ships arriving at where it's supposed to be, you know, without being sunk in the middle of the ocean somewhere. Okay? Dr. Michaela: Yep. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So he saw that energy runs from negative to positive, okay, in the circuit. So there's Dr. Michaela: Yep. Yep. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: a load in between, but it always goes from negative to positive. He made the same discovery with people. The energy runs from negative to positive. Okay? Dr. Michaela: Okay. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And this is what I love about Mace. There's a spiritual piece of it that without that piece it would not work at all. No other psychotherapy Dr. Michaela: Right. Right. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that I know of does that. Except for maybe exorcism, you know. Dr. Michaela: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And this is not religious. It has nothing to do with any kind of religious affiliation. So he's just talking about how energy moves. Okay? Dr. Michaela: Yeah, yeah. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: So he he saw that the spirit of the person, the the the the energy that's driving this machine, okay, is positive, and that if you can connect that negative identity to that positive identity in the person, that that energy would be drawn Dr. Michaela: Mm. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: to the spirit. the spirit would take it and turn it into it doesn't destroy it, it turns it into positive energy and then releases it back to the person. And that Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: that energy is now gone. Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: And you ask the person, okay, how do you feel now? They said, consistently, I feel lighter, I feel More energy. You know, Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I I feel more grounded. And it it in an hour. The worst the worst negative identity, the worst trauma can be completely gone in an hour. And it's permanent. Dr. Michaela: Wow. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: I'm so fascinated with this stuff. When I first ran into it, I I started reading Mace's books and I went, This guy's on to something. Dr. Michaela: And you have the experience to back it up. Where can just being mindful of your time, where can people find out about what you're doing in this field with this? Just for the regular people who have experienced some traumas, maybe they don't even have voices, but they want to insert the more positive entity or they want the positive energy entity to extinguish the negative, how how do they learn about that? Where do you direct people to go? Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: Well called bring them in for a session. In in an hour the worst one is gone. So th Dr. Michaela: Well Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: they can go to my website at jerymarzinski dot com. There's a section to sign up for a session, or they can just write me personally at J A R Z then the number one at outlook.com and we'll set up for a session. They might have to wait a week or two, but eventually we'll get to them. Dr. Michaela: Wow, that's fantastic. And and listeners, you know, we always include this in the show notes. but JerryMarzinski.com, you can learn about the Mace Energy Method and what they're doing there to be able to counter some of these historical, relentless, negative thought processes that so many of us can can kind of succumb to. Cherry, thank you so much for sharing this and your perspective. There's so much here. And I know we just scraped the surface, but I'm I'm so grateful to get you on, especially with this Clan Clancy case and kind of the prevalence that everyone is talking about psychosis and and and how it affects our everyday actions. Maybe even not even at the level of Lindsay Clancy. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: you're more than welcome. You know, I think if anybody's gonna be blamed for Lindsay, it should be her husband. He should have never allowed her to be around those kids. Wha after she said, I'm hearing voices telling 'cause they kill and and the psychiatrist sh should have warned You know, they they were just doing what they do. They just dish out meds that don't cure anything, they don't fix anything, they just drug the person down. You know, they're doing what psychiatrists do. They don't talk to people, they just they give out drugs. Dr. Michaela: Such a bigger conversation there too on how other people can help other people, you know, protect from kind of the the community effort to to help avoid some of these really tragic outcomes. Thank you so much, Jerry. Jerry Marzinsky B.A. M.Ed. CMP: You're more than welcome.