Latest / Sessions Canceled / "Proper" Rewards: Ep. 47

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"Proper" Rewards: Ep. 47 · Sessions Canceled

0:10
Everybody and welcome sessions, canceled podcast, as it got
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ripped into the warp today successions canceled.
0:19
I guess this is where Josh. You can plug.
0:23
Go ahead, go ahead, buddy. Do you think that was a little
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quick? I was going to say, though, you
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always come in so much, calmer the rest of us, Sam.
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I know so much, much more so much more relaxed.
0:35
Some kind of us have stuff. That's that's fair.
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It was another thing I was gonna say that I have help like done,
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hopefully, I'll remember it later.
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But anyway, if you like what you hear hit follow end or subscribe
0:46
on whatever platform you're listening to on.
0:48
That'd be nice. Big fan, good luck.
0:51
Yeah. Was it?
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Oh okay. It just came to me.
0:56
Good time, good timing. Um also if you're listening and
1:01
you haven't checked out our, you know, any other episodes if
1:03
you'll be so kind as to give up sewed, 45 the internet's bad,
1:07
take some loves because Isaiah put a lot of research into it.
1:09
And for some reason that one, not get a lot of love right now,
1:12
but that was it. Probably because about that
1:15
takes, I don't know. I think the algorithm is
1:18
punishing on us on that one for some reason I don't know why but
1:21
it seems like goodness. You've got the word bad in here.
1:24
Yeah, I know, I don't know Atticus.
1:28
I don't know. But it was a very funny episode
1:30
and Isaiah did a lot of good research to collect the takes in
1:34
question. So like, you know, I remember
1:36
dying and seeing the the posts come in about what the bad takes
1:40
were very confused. Yeah, because I forgot what the
1:43
subjects, you Laughs. Yeah, I was like, what is this
1:46
mean? Yeah, it's a saw them coming
1:48
into their opinion. Please don't tell me it was
1:54
like, oh no, this doesn't, this can't be.
1:56
This is too bad of a tick. Yeah, yeah.
2:00
Like, when I saw the the armor subtract from damage instead of
2:05
making it harder to hit, I was like, wait, that doesn't make
2:07
any fucking sense. Anyway, I'm just saying, guys,
2:10
flashbacks, they just slow down the game.
2:12
We just gotta get him out of here.
2:13
That one still haunts, my dreams.
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I don't know bus, I don't know about slowing down.
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Anyway, that's the opposite effect.
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Obviously, Isaiah is not here with us today.
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So, It's just myself a Josh and Matt and today we're going to
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talk about rewarding your players with combat and how well
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they do with combat or rewarding their role playing.
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We're both not the bedroom roleplay.
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Now, know, IG have to make it weird.
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I don't know, a Swiss purchase starts playing in the
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background, I don't know. It's just, I just felt like
2:55
taking a weird Direction mission to come.
3:01
These are artists office. Safe word.
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I correct bananas. Anyway, so I I've given you guys
3:12
some questions to think about formulate over.
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Yeah. Well, first one being I'll
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pretend like I looked at those. Sure.
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I assume they're more format than anybody else.
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Listen Matt will come at us and be like, hey, I don't know what
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the fuck that means. Let's have it, I'm keeping Matt.
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So I think about like doing it on the Fly.
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No thinki only reactions. No, thank head up, dude.
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Okay, well it's the first question, thank you format for
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reading. I know that's hard for you to be
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reading up from you. I yeah, but it's so hard.
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I remember Josh you don't read shit from me.
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That's that still holds true. That's not bad first.
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Someone has to repost whatever Matson so that Josh can read it.
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Yeah. It's just some weird Eldridge
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curse. We don't know what's going on it
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because it would matson's and it just like looks like garbage
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garbled, Elda Elven ruins. Jesus Christ.
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Yeah, that's a while to get out of here.
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We're here everybody. Take the mat Sam.
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Take this away from me. I'm stupid tonight.
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Listen, I'm also stupid that I'm like, I'm half asleep at the
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wheel right now. See, Jesus Jesus is driving this
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podcast, right? Never mind.
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I was gonna keep going down that route, everybody mmm?
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Yeah. Anyway and so I'll pose this
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question to Josh first because you know has more experience
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with both. What do you think?
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It's hmm necessary or optimal to give both roar like experience
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or just rewards in general for For doing well in combat in
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role-playing. I know my answer.
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Do I think it's necessary to reward for both as I basically
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everything depending on the system of course, but yeah,
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necessary are optimal. Excuse that the players the
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feel-good juice. Hmm.
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No, I don't think it's that. I don't think it's a requirement
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to reward for either of them. I think there's lots of other
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ways that you can do it. I mean, those are the two most
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common. No, I don't think, I think a lot
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of games for go combat reward. That's pretty standard.
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Yep. Um he'll usually do something
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like for instance, place in the dark, it has a built-in system
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with your traumas that if you role play them all and stuff.
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Yeah. There's that.
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And then the thing with blades since you brought I knew I was
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going to. I Knew blades is going to come
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up at some point. I know, I think lady so fast.
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I know the entire time I was writing this, I was thinking
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about Blake's. Yeah, well, so the thing, okay,
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it's probably gonna be a follow-up question, where I will
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go to this more, but the thing about blades, literally the
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second question, okay? Yeah.
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All right, so I know that thing will say, right, this moment is,
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yeah, so not rewarding for combat, lots of games.
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Do that? That's very normal. and now you
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might say to yourself, well then you have to reward for role
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playing, that's the only other option at which point I say Yes,
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but also no. Yes, with an asterisk.
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Yes, yes. To the yes.
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As a thing with bleh. It's as an example using blink,
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every character or every playbook in blades, which is
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roughly blades equivalent of a class, you have a list of
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actions or objectives for your specific Playbook and if you
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excuse me, If you if you act out or participate in any of those
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XP. So for example, if you're
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playing a cutter, one of your options is to address a
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challenge with violence or coercion, you get XP if you do
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that, at least, once per session to XP.
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If you did it, multiple times per session plays uses, very
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small x m. And then the other way you can
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get XP is just by Rolling. Abilities.
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And I think it's every time you Your time, you know?
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I forget what how the role XP work, but when you just roll
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actions, you can also get Clete, listen, confusing with another
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game. I'm actually now doubting myself
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as I'm saying, believe the failure one is dungeon world.
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I know dungeon world does it, but I thought blades had a
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similar thing that I'm thinking about it.
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It might not. I I think it's when you try out
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or whatever. Oh yes, yes, I don't think it's
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when you specifically fail, I think.
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Yeah, I'm out. Oh no, sorry here.
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It's right here on the it's right here.
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On the Playbook. Oh, this is the other thing I
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really like about blades as they have all the XP.
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Curzon your playbook. So in other words on your
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character sheet for your character you can just see them
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at all times. Every time you roll a desperate
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action, you get X on that action.
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So anytime A desperate action blades for for you Matt but also
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for anyone listening A desperate action and Blades is like
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anytime you're trying to do something that is really
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challenging. So if you imagine it like a
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really high DC check and B and D, it's kind of like that.
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What the fuck with? Sorry that was making weird
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noises. so yeah, anytime you roll a desperate action, you get
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XP which is basically just like yeah like I said if you're
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trying to do something that's very difficult or you're kind of
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in a bad position to be doing it, and I would argue that those
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aren't role-playing rewards at least, not in the way that most
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people think of quote-unquote, real thing.
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Not the DM going. Here's a cookie for doing well,
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the game literally has it still thin, which is yeah.
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The same, you see, I have a feeling I know where I'm gonna
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go with this next, but Sam, I'll let you hear.
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I'll let you okay. Not now, that you've listens to
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a different way to reward other players.
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He went, what do you think about what do you think?
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Well, actually, when I, when I kind of read the question at
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first, I thought it was when you were like, roared in Combat
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versus role-playing. My head immediately went to not
10:00
like rewarding like XP or anything.
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My went, my initial thing was like, feel good.
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Yeah. An experience.
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That's why I didn't say experience.
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Like, it could be, you know, item, a bonus to something
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experience or Indies case, you know, inspiration something
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mechanical. Yeah, I think the main point, I
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think the main point is is something mechanical reward
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specific mechanical. Okay.
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Cuz I cuz that's bullshit like it as You're thinking, like, a
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role-playing room, like rolling, a feel-good, like a roleplay.
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Like, he's not really weird. Yeah.
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Because I wrote in like, oh no, you should.
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Because I, my initial thought was like, you should.
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Well, you should it's not necessary but you should try.
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But now that it's like some sort of like something like an
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inspiration or like there could be something in universe or out,
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you know mechanical. Yeah.
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Maybe no, no. I was just saying mate, that's
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the thing. I think, like, in my head, I
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want to say there should be something, but I got on with
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Josh, where it's like, I don't think it's 100% necessary.
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Yeah. Like, that's right.
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That's like, that's why I think it's optimal to at least attempt
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to give both or all, like, try to reward your players for doing
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good things and by saying a good, I don't mean playing good
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characters. I mean literally like being good
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player. Just yeah.
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As I think like this is, there's going to be times where like you
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try to make a combat encounter and sucks but maybe the role
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play for that session like made up for it vice versa.
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So yeah. Maybe you know maybe people
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should try 0000 is try to like knock it out the park but you
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know, fucking it shit happens. That one kind of thought was
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gonna be amazing and so being a slog and everybody hated it, you
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know, like or really quick really quick.
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Yeah. It's like, wow, I work six
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hours. Where's and you guys killed it
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in minutes. Where is the delicious?
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What does that mean? Where it's like?
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All right. So we have the, the Paladin with
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a 29, AC 60 feet movement, extra attack.
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I put haste on him and he's a war force with Shield the faith.
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Okay. That's like guys.
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Did you see that mean? By the way that masterminds?
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No, yeah it had. It had a picture of mr.
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Hassan from fate. Understandable, let me go.
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That was a faint reference. It is indeed a fate reference.
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My boy which is extra funny too because that character Matt,
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it's on the king or whatever that bone link is owed is enemy.
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That my players fought in the session where they killed Sam
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Zell Patron. Oh, that's him.
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That's bone. Daddy.
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Nice. Hello bum, Daddy.
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But it's so I guess my only thing was because I got numb.
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I'm not this mostly from fucking Dandy.
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I know. I like the idea of the role.
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Roleplay like reward being more like in character or likes or
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easier than I do Josh because I know you had you said a while
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ago it's like you do the XP thing when it comes with players
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roleplay, there, you know, ideals bonds, flaws, whatever.
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They get a little bit of XP like hypothetically, let's say there
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was a like something like that. Andy, that you would do, but you
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weren't using XP. Like, what other thing would you
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reward players sighs XP? And besides like a Ortiz, Um,
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yeah, I mean well, so Sam's since Sam is specifically
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referring to I think Jesse's specifically going mechanics
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where I took it. Like, yeah.
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So that's this is really funny. The reason why I didn't do like
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specifically like experience as a reward is because some games
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do experience much differently. Yeah.
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Well, so the thing I think is really funny here though is the
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fact that, when Sam's put that when Sam gave us the prompt in
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the chat, right? I immediately knew Sam meant
13:53
mechanical rewards, like I instantly knew that, that's
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where he was going with this, but the fact that you met didn't
14:00
come at it from that angle, I think is kind of telling of an
14:03
interesting dichotomy and the way that me and Sam think about
14:07
games of the way that you think about games, which is kind of
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funny. But yeah, so the idea of rewards
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reward fictional in game like story rewards, they are And
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stuff. Yeah, like that's a different to
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me at least for my money. I think this is kind of where
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Sam's at to that's like an entirely different topic that's
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like its own subject that's like separate, you know.
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Um I will actually I will just mention this.
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So when the D and D 1 D and D Lighthouse, came out the new
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inspiration system, my players and I really liked it.
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We play test that and kind of changed it when they updated and
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now we use it in our game. Yeah, we because my players to
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yeah, because everyone like 45. You Everyone likes inspiration
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but they don't really had a good way of fucking using other than
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diems like diems fee off. Yeah, I need my player.
15:03
You were the mmm side mechanic? Yeah.
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Yeah. My players were joke.
15:07
Like right. Every time you make lap, Matt
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laughs. You know, he'll give out
15:10
inspiration. I'm like, fuck that.
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Like damn it. Now I want to go.
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But I'll say here, although I will say actually it's funny.
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We change the inspiration rules in my game too.
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But I do feel like we often forget about I have to try and
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remind each other like, oh, hey, you get inspiration for that.
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We can change the name, he calls like inspiration, determination.
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And the only one at a time ruled, we thinking house to
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remind each other that if you have inspiration and you get it,
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you can give it to someone because if we keep forgetting.
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Yeah, we also forget that right? Try to, I try to remind people
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that always, I forget to and I'm fucking Derek.
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So, yeah, you know, that happens constantly, you don't like the,
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what the Claire, classing Is is a blessing, like, don't forget
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to add your D for every time, every time we're in combat.
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All right? So remember to put the beIN, the
15:59
slow the black. Yeah.
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But anyway, so let's go combat encounter.
16:05
Hey, Josh. We're going to depose the shit
16:07
out of them. Yeah.
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Answer to answer your question, Matt.
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Yeah, I mean, obviously XP is the most obvious reward, but
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inspiration is another, you know, is another example of how
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Can go about it, sort of a bonus to a roll.
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I also think it's valid to reward magic items or you know,
16:30
relatively good gear or both both combat and roleplay.
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I do think you can reward like if you You know, if you're
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playing obviously, if you're playing a fantasy game, you go
16:41
into the dungeon, you beat the boss.
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You're rewarded with him. You know, a flame tongue sword.
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That's pretty normal. But then, if you take it into a
16:48
different direction, if you're playing like, cyberpunk, and
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you're talking to your fixer and, you know, your, your
16:56
executive player manages to convince their fixer, like, hey,
17:00
could you give us a little something to help us out on the
17:01
job? The fixture says, okay.
17:03
I'll see what I can do and then they regret them laser mantis.
17:06
Played for the would like a flame.
17:08
Thrower or some shit for the mission, right?
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So like you can go that direction too.
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That's uh, that's another easy way to do it.
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I also think in terms of mechanical rewards stuff, like
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temporary bonuses is a really good one, no apocalypse World
17:25
Games. Almost always have some sort of
17:27
mechanic that involves a plus-one.
17:29
What's called a plus-one forward, which is just you get a
17:32
plus one to your next role and then there's plus 1 ongoing,
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which is you get a plus one for all your roles until a certain
17:38
period. Out of time passes or whatever.
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You know, you can also give another good mechanical reward,
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although this is this one's. This is kind of a funny example
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because this one's sort of is in between a mechanical reward and
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the story reward, but like giving your players a renowned
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score or reputation score thing to, then be cashed in for
18:05
certain items like eggs in a A good example, is in the Fantasy
18:09
Flight Star Wars game, because the players and at least, in my
18:13
case, you could were part of the Rebellion.
18:16
You have a duty score and if you, if you do, whatever you're
18:21
so like each of the players had a job in the rebellion.
18:24
And if they did their job in the Rebellion, that would give them
18:27
points towards their Duty score, which they could then cash in
18:29
for like, Assistance, or for like a vehicle or for some like
18:33
gear and shit like that. That's another good way to do.
18:37
Absolutely. I'm doing the same thing, strict
18:39
saving with the relationship, you know?
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Like I spends time, you know, hangs out with NPC, they get
18:44
relationship points and then they get some kind of flavorful
18:47
thing from that. Whether it be like you know this
18:50
NPC owes you help or they will help you get some money or
18:53
whatever. Yeah, I think a renowned and or
18:56
reputation system is super helpful for a lot of reasons
19:01
particularly because it's a really good like sort of looking
19:06
for. It's a very Sort of like a
19:10
tangible. Yes, yeah.
19:11
It's a very tangible score to keep track of and by being
19:17
tangible and concrete that helps you as a GM, be able to
19:23
represent that in the game. So for example, if you had, you
19:28
know, if you have certain thresholds it's like when the
19:31
player is get past renowned 5, The Guild they work for starts
19:36
to notice them, you know, like or something like That once they
19:38
get past renowned 15, their Guild is willing to give them
19:42
like higher-paying job. You know, really good tangible
19:45
mechanical like I can look at this number and I have a way to
19:48
represent it fictionally that's always a good thing and I I wish
19:53
the five-year ones were better, I be yeah, I, yeah, five, you
19:56
told ya, you should have a thing like that, a lot of players
19:59
utilize that, in their 5e games in various forms, and it is kind
20:02
of funny that there wasn't there because to do, you know about
20:06
Sam, do you know in the DMG there are renowned rules but
20:09
yes, there I did I was just about to bring them up.
20:13
Not only are they not great but they're also completely optional
20:17
they're completely optional and the real me for the like
20:20
Forgotten Realms specific. Guilts Guild?
20:23
Yeah. Yep, which movie, I liked weeks
20:26
them to not be like, yeah, you know, like the honor their
20:32
there's like, there's like there's a, there's a bunch of
20:38
them that are in there. And they're like for role
20:40
playing for Indian D, but they're completely optional
20:43
people just forget the exist. So, that's a different.
20:45
Yeah, so that's two different things because there's the mean,
20:48
there's the honor score and the piety score thing.
20:51
Yep. And then There's also the even
20:54
sanity one or whatever the 71. And then there's the renowned
20:57
scores for the specific Forgotten Realms guilds.
21:00
And those are two separate systems, and they're all of them
21:03
are optional and also are optional.
21:06
None of them are presented in the player's handbook, in any
21:08
way. So we have no way of even
21:11
knowing That's like the must've read but read the DMG.
21:15
Yeah. Which a lot of players
21:17
specifically by choice, avoid the DMG on purpose because they
21:22
assume they're supposed to which, I mean fair, I can
21:25
understand why you would think that.
21:27
Yeah. For the magic, I know that
21:33
you're not supposed to really. Look at is the monster magic.
21:37
Yes, the Moss granules. The one that you're supposed to
21:39
like mostly white ash. That.
21:43
But, I don't know. I wish that they wish that they
21:48
used because then waterdeep Dragon high-stakes change how
21:50
the Renown system kind of works. Well, the different guilds and
21:54
they make them tangible. They make them actually like who
21:57
and they give you missions that are tied to each one of the
22:00
factions and you know it all for you know, revolves around the
22:04
Water Dragon Eyes Adventure. But you can just take those and
22:07
use them in your own game. But and I know a lot of people
22:09
don't use the Acquisitions Incorporated book.
22:12
Look. But that book also has a shit
22:14
ton of good examples of like here here.
22:17
Here's how to run a faction. I know they make it more into
22:20
like the office like hahaha funny Guild.
22:23
Think a lot of people know what that books about I know it's
22:27
basically it was the Acquisitions and corporate
22:31
answer to the strongholds and followers book by MC.
22:33
DM know, I know but the funny thing is is like I think the
22:36
reason a lot of people don't have some Adventure in it.
22:38
Oh yeah, I think a lot of the reason a lot of people don't
22:41
look at it. They don't actually know what
22:43
it's supposed to be for because I had no fucking clue with the
22:47
point of that supplement was. I didn't know if it was a
22:49
setting or an adventure, we're like a.
22:51
Well, I didn't realize it was like it's like a system yoga
22:55
system book. It's a whole new system book
22:57
where it's like you want. Do you want to make an
23:00
adventuring Guild or you know for your own players your party?
23:04
Do they want to build up their own kingdom?
23:06
Do they want to get followers and NPCs basically the
23:09
strongholds and followers shit, but if I Beavers corporate
23:13
business like flavoring. It's more of, yeah.
23:16
More of the, you know, the office kind of I'll humor where
23:19
it's like, I'm a barbarian in a business suit and you're like,
23:22
wait a minute. The funny thing is about that
23:24
too. Is I probably would have liked
23:25
that book a lot if I actually knew what it was.
23:29
Yeah, right. Most books.
23:31
Yeah, remember, like I grew up like a knight loved Acquisitions
23:36
of corporate style icon 5e. So I kind of was like, super gun
23:39
ho about it. And then it's like the
23:41
adventure. It is okay.
23:43
It's your be like, hmm. Have you ever used it?
23:47
I use chunks of it in the three, your game.
23:49
Yeah. Like I ran one of the event.
23:52
Like I did the thing where I took one of the parts of the
23:55
adventure through it into my home game and ran that and it
23:58
was great, it was a big fucking Dwarven.
24:00
Vault, like Heist and the place I was sneak in and it was crazy.
24:05
It has such a nice map and they even used it in the show too,
24:10
but wasn't just like a, here's some shit.
24:12
It from the adventure. It's like here's something that
24:13
I've seen being run and then they threw in the adventure and
24:17
they changed it changed up a bit and then I was able to take that
24:20
and run it myself and because I kind of like watched it before
24:24
and saw how the original group played it I could add in some of
24:28
that stuff or I can like throw some like own load like he he ha
24:31
ha jokes. But yeah.
24:36
But no I mean it's now. And then the other thing too,
24:39
with the Acquisitions Incorporated book, it has a A
24:42
lot of shit, it has new spells as an adventure, has a bunch of
24:46
monsters as a bunch of kind of like what they did in Tomah foes
24:50
where they gave you these like abilities that you can throw on
24:55
monsters. At doesn't really if you just
24:58
give some cool new ability, it doesn't really affect the, our
25:01
sodium. Don't fucking worry about
25:02
changing shit. I don't believe that.
25:05
But okay, yeah. But and they're all, there's no
25:08
way to give a monster and ability and not affect the CR,
25:11
but sure. I I know but that's how they
25:13
interact actions that monster past much higher.
25:20
See are much higher. See hard, you give anything
25:24
fact? Give all your bosses back
25:26
tactics. Thank you, bro.
25:28
You gave the Lich pack tactics. What are you doing here?
25:32
What is he acted? Just like, it's just like, it's
25:36
what I'm not little anymore. I'm a rogue step.
25:39
Step, step, step, I'm with kind of nervous.
25:42
Back then I just had a nif grow larger players for good role
25:50
play with. Yeah, I wasn't thinking
25:51
mechanically on the long story short.
25:54
Yeah, I know. It's all right, it's okay.
25:56
Matt. Well now that now that you've
25:58
learned that that's the direction we're going.
26:00
Just reorganize every thought you had.
26:02
All right. Kind of why I asked.
26:04
Josh first, let's take a look at that.
26:08
Just just play some hold music. Yeah, let's play the Djembe.
26:12
Anything that I do have, I do have an example.
26:16
I do. Like that's not 5e for the
26:20
mechanical. Like, you know, I, you know, the
26:23
next question that I can't can't imagine you talking about
26:26
anything but 5e, right? I've played other games while at
26:31
I have while like, I know but it's why.
26:35
I mean, I can I can I can say it if you want.
26:38
No, no. It's let's it's fine.
26:40
But I'll just, I'll just move. One of the next question as you
26:43
said it's a prop. So so so, so the question has
26:46
been sort of, like, sort of sort of brought out it some games
26:51
house, these rewards built in like, you know, Desperate roles
26:57
in place of the dark. Technically, D&D has now, reward
27:02
for Rolling really well, whether it's, you know, in combat or
27:07
role-playing. You know that there's there's
27:10
role-playing experience and items you can give people or or,
27:16
you know, tangible scores to, you know, rewards your players,
27:23
the ability to get more things or you know.
27:25
Get something out of the organization or whatever,
27:28
there's another games. So do you prefer when the game
27:33
has the reward system built-in mechanically and, you know,
27:37
obviously allow you to tweak it or would you rather the game?
27:40
Encourage it like indeed does in some instances like the original
27:49
Inspiration rules. I don't know why I forgot the
27:51
word inspiration. What do you mean by incurring?
27:54
So so how D & D as the inspiration system, like not the
28:02
not, the play test material ideal were in original five.
28:04
You'll the original 5e inspiration system where it kind
28:07
of encourages players to do something specific.
28:12
But it's rather than likely but it's not it's not mechanically
28:16
specific, it's not hey you did something for this organization,
28:20
think? Oh my God, yeah yeah.
28:25
Yeah. I mean I I I I greatly dislike
28:31
the that McBee old inspirator the guess.
28:35
It's still the current inspiration.
28:37
It's yeah. Because complete us.
28:38
Yeah. So the the current Society
28:40
implementation of inspiration is a type of mechanic that I refer
28:47
to in my brain, as the DM goes. Like, here's a cookie and Levi
28:52
said that earlier too. Yeah.
28:54
Yeah, yeah, or like, here's some here, some breadcrumbs to
28:57
continue down the trail. That's that's what that mechanic
28:59
those mechanics are to me. And, you know, I hate that shit,
29:05
any Anything that involves. GM ending a cookie for your like
29:13
good behavior or whatever. It cannot stand, which is I'm,
29:21
well, there's a variant rule that allows players to hand out
29:24
the operation. I don't like that either.
29:28
It means the players have to remember.
29:30
That means while these players are have to remember is to
29:31
remember shit. But then but also it me.
29:34
It just means that you're just changing it from the DM hands
29:38
out cookies to the player's hand out cookies.
29:40
Yeah but it's still handing out cookies and that's the thing I
29:43
don't like that's my whole beef. That's my primary beef with
29:46
Milestone. Is the DM hands.
29:50
You the cookie. When you have jumped through the
29:52
arbitrary Hoops that the DM has decided and set for you, right?
29:55
That's why I don't like Milestone and I don't like, Get
29:57
in other situations either. That's why I hate the old
30:00
inspiration rules and have literally never.
30:02
Once used them, I've always used modified inspiration rules.
30:08
And I also don't like it or XP because a lot of games have some
30:15
variation on the rule, that is something along the lines of the
30:21
player. Do good role play yours XP and
30:25
it's basically just the GM deciding, what, quote, unquote
30:28
good role play is and then they give you the XP for that.
30:33
And I hate that I mean, I want it to be clear and tangible.
30:42
Like I don't, I don't particularly when you're talking
30:46
about like Ward systems XP, especially, but I think this
30:51
applies to pretty much all them. The players should be able to
30:57
control and and maybe I shouldn't say control, but the
31:01
players should be able to decide and make decisions about Out how
31:06
they get the reward and when they get the reward like they
31:09
should it should be in the players hands because it's for
31:12
the players. I think the word that you're
31:14
looking for is influence. Yeah, I mean yeah influence.
31:19
I guess. Yeah.
31:19
Would be the sort of lighter word because, you know, now
31:26
obviously there's places where it becomes a little like
31:30
difficult and obviously at the end of the day, your GM in the
31:34
game so you're Or essential you are essentially deciding
31:39
everything. Once you really get down to the
31:41
brass tacks. And but the point the way that
31:44
you should do it, Okay, clearly defined goals.
31:49
Yeah, I mean the way I think you should do it, go with that is
31:53
yeah, you should do it in the way that a video game gives you
31:57
a quest. Hmm.
31:59
All right, so if I'm playing The Witcher and I get I pick up a
32:04
contract to go kill, you know, to go kill a cockatrice.
32:10
The game does not say to me. You must kill a cockatrice with
32:14
Witcher signs. The game says to me, oh, kill
32:18
the cockatrice. And I go, cool, I will kill it.
32:21
Which ever fucking way? I please, you told me the goal
32:24
but the methodology is on me. How I get about there is up to
32:27
me, what way I do it? What method, what weapons went,
32:29
but etc, etc, etc. Obviously video games differ a
32:33
little, because they're more tightly controlled than
32:34
role-playing games by their very nature, but it's, you know,
32:39
obviously, right? But you should think about it in
32:41
that way. A big thing, a lot of people
32:44
complain about when they're playing video games.
32:46
James is anytime a game forces you to use a specific thing to
32:52
complete a specific task. You will always hear players
32:55
complain and the sentence that will inevitably come out of
32:59
their mouth is, I want to play the game.
33:00
I want, I want to play the game the way I want.
33:04
Right? I mean, so it's like, for
33:06
example, you're playing a shooter and the game is like,
33:08
you have to beat the mission with this gun.
33:11
And then the gun is a gun that you hate.
33:14
Then you get annoyed. You're like, why aren't you just
33:16
letting me use the gun that I like?
33:18
Very good examples. Also, the original version of
33:21
DmC, Devil May Cry with the two enemy types, where if you tried
33:25
it again with anything, but in this particular colored weapon,
33:29
huh? You bounce off of them and you
33:31
basically do no damage, so they did.
33:34
Kind of fix that but when they're updated version, where
33:37
you don't bounce off. But you do significantly less
33:40
damage. The the problem with the MC is
33:44
that, you know, the game, those games are usually about blow and
33:48
the second you have to use specific, one breaks the flow or
33:51
two weapons. You break your own flow.
33:55
There's leave you hate those weapons anyway until which is
33:57
the whole thing, right? Is I don't want to have to use
34:00
the thing, I don't like. So I basically went out when
34:03
you're dealing with player rewards, I think it should be
34:06
much the same objective. All right, so, A great example
34:12
going back to blades in the dark if we go back to the cutter and
34:17
the things that the cutter gets reward for who I do, you address
34:20
a challenge with violence or coercion.
34:24
It doesn't say you shoot a man, it doesn't say too aggressively
34:28
stab someone it doesn't say you address a problem with a knife,
34:31
right? It says violence and coercion.
34:33
It says this is the goal Islands, means whatever you
34:36
want. It is specific, it is both
34:39
specific and vague. Yeah, it's big open.
34:42
Another method. Yeah.
34:43
In method but specific and goal. Yes.
34:46
Yeah. So that's basically how I want.
34:50
Any kind of player like player rewards stuff and kind of
34:54
mechanical Awards which is why I really liked the inspiration
34:57
rules on the One D and D play test because it's very clear.
35:01
It says player. You get inspiration when you
35:04
roll a 20 or a 1, if you're whichever version you're using,
35:08
when you roll a 20, you get inspiration though, the what
35:10
that the thing that I like, the reason that I like that just to
35:13
sort of extrapolate further Is for me if I'm a player.
35:19
And I know, okay, I get an Inspiration Point when I roll a
35:23
20, I know I'm gonna get a, 20, roughly five percent of the
35:28
time, right? I know if we have a session
35:33
where we're going to be doing a bunch of combats, I'm a much
35:37
more likely to get more inspiration points.
35:39
So if we're having a session where we're going through a
35:41
Dungeon Crawl, I'm gonna burn my inspiration more freely because
35:46
I know I'm going to get more 20s or a more You get more 20s
35:49
obviously it's not guaranteed. I'm more likely to get more
35:52
twenties because that is all concrete.
35:55
The GM cannot influence that in any way.
35:58
As opposed to the current inspiration rules of 5 e, which
36:01
is what ends up happening. And this is true.
36:04
I've watched this happen in multiple games, multiple
36:06
multiple actual place players. Don't spend their inspiration
36:10
because they don't know when you're gonna get it, because
36:12
it's up to the GM to hand, you the cookie, when they feel like
36:15
it, or they remember for that matter, right?
36:18
I mean, That's the other problem, too, is the GM has to
36:20
remember to give you the cookie or the fact that they even have
36:23
the cookies or that they even bake them this morning?
36:25
What if they didn't bring them to the session?
36:27
I don't know why I'm on this cookie.
36:28
Think how? How fucking dare they night
36:31
cream? Cookies, too goddamn said you'd
36:33
like me to go through 40 plus hours of D&D with do cookies?
36:38
Well, I guess I imagined right. Water players, will stop Jimmy
36:41
Bly. Remember like a player has a
36:44
really cool moment or whatever in the game, right?
36:46
And then at the end, then you finish session or whatever.
36:48
And then GM. Sit down and goes.
36:51
Oh, sorry, Fred. I probably should have given you
36:53
inspiration for the scene where you killed the list.
36:55
Those those, those pretty dope. I I completely forgot, I guess
37:00
you can have inspiration Network.
37:01
Next week, I wish Point Fred goes, I could have used that
37:03
inspiration before and he's like, yeah, I know, I forgot
37:06
like, you know what I mean? Or Fred already has inspiration
37:10
for so you just this passage because he was hoarding.
37:12
All right. Yeah.
37:13
Who wants my inspiration because now he's Gotta Give It Away, you
37:17
know? Yeah.
37:18
It's I want To be able to know if it's a tangible thing that
37:21
I'm getting as a player, I need to know that it is a tangible
37:25
and obvious way for it to fire. Mmm.
37:29
It's pretty much. Yeah, that's pretty much the
37:32
give or take herb, which is why, which is why I say there are
37:36
ways you can do good Milestone rewards as there are ways to
37:41
make your Milestones, very clear and tangible.
37:44
Yeah. Make it very clear that the
37:46
quest is going to reward you with something very, very good
37:50
for you. Smiley face.
37:51
I mean shit, you could you could have a milestone system where
37:54
every X number of sessions you level up like every two sessions
37:58
Gary tonight. Yeah.
37:58
You know, not that I would recommend that necessarily, but
38:02
you could maybe every three sessions.
38:05
I mean, what a yeah, like I'm just like, I probably wouldn't,
38:07
I don't like doing things but on like, every x amount of session,
38:10
but I'm just saying, like, if you wanted to do that, that is a
38:13
milestone system, you could do. And that would annoy me less
38:16
because at least I know for a fact.
38:18
All right session 3 I get the level up regardless of what I do
38:22
or how I fuck up. No the other thing too with the
38:26
like yours XP for your good role play or here's any kind of
38:29
reward for your quote unquote good role play is it punishes
38:32
quiet or players and unintentionally?
38:35
Usually but you know does it is it is a shame when a mechanic is
38:39
very biased towards players, do it are like me more active or Or
38:45
biased towards players that the DM clearly, like, favors in some
38:49
way or like, yeah, it's just the character.
38:51
Specifically, my friend or orange.
38:54
The DM is more interested in their character story.
38:57
Yeah. Like it can just end up being
39:00
that way which is you know, unfortunate and and sometimes
39:04
yeah, leave other players feeling, you know.
39:09
Yeah. That's There's a problem,
39:12
though. Definitely exactly when you can
39:15
just resolved, when it comes to like Milestone Josh, how did you
39:19
feel in like the center of earnest?
39:23
Where you don't really know they did it.
39:26
You hate it. I hate it.
39:27
I put up with it because it was what we all agreed to do.
39:29
And I wasn't gonna like a rang. Say I'm about it because I
39:33
wanted to play The Adventure, but I hated not knowing when the
39:35
Milestone was going to hit and I distinctly, remember, I think
39:38
we've talked about this before, but I also distinctly remember,
39:41
Several points in the adventure where I thought we were gonna
39:45
get a milestone and then we didn't.
39:47
Hmm. Like, I remember there were
39:48
several parts. I was like, oh, this is
39:49
definitely level up worthy. And then Sam was like, no, don't
39:52
get a little up. I was like, okay, you know, and
39:55
that's annoying because it's like, oh my interpretation of
39:58
level Upworthy is different from the person who wrote The
40:00
Adventure. Like I think, I think when we,
40:03
when we completed the like Bramble patch dungeon, I so you
40:09
want another reason why you didn't get a Wii.
40:11
Didn't there, right? Yeah, you want to know why?
40:14
Why? Because you had already received
40:15
that level up is that was extra content.
40:19
Oh, okay. See what we don't know that,
40:22
right? So, okay, well, what I mean, is
40:24
it like, okay, so there's what you do in a varnish there,
40:26
there, the two paths, right? Right, right.
40:28
Take if you already done part of a path and you've got enough to
40:32
that level and you're doing Milestone, you're not going to
40:35
get you little overdue Angela. You're not you're not going to
40:38
go to little five Zone after getting a little late.
40:40
I mean get a level up. It will level 5 Zone because I
40:43
think it makes more sense if the adventure is very
40:48
straightforward. Right?
40:49
Which film is it was? It is a good has the two paths
40:54
and I think the Bramble patch was because that was like it was
40:58
a fetch Quest. Going to another fetch Quest,
40:59
going to another fetch Quest like it was back to back like it
41:03
was saying and then backtrack. So I thought when we did the all
41:06
the backtracking and then we went back to the zappy Tower
41:09
with the unicorn and the, the genie.
41:12
Then she would love, which I remember if we did or didn't do
41:16
remember was the split after finishing the stuff?
41:20
Yeah. But here's my thing.
41:22
Yes, Matt. I see what you're saying.
41:24
I thought the Bramble patch was going to be a level up because
41:27
it was a dungeon and we hadn't done any dungeon stuff.
41:30
Very much up into that point. Like we hadn't done one in a
41:33
while. So I was like, oh, the next big
41:34
dungeon is the Bramble patch and you get to level up for doing
41:37
the next big dungeon like that was my logic but this is the
41:39
problem. The fact that we had to For
41:41
mindsets about it is is is showcasing what about the issue
41:47
I have with that style of Milestone next week like you can
41:51
literally show getting my issue is or not.
41:54
You are we by the fact that we bought?
41:56
We both had a different idea, is showing it.
41:58
All right that sounded like I was accusing you that wasn't
42:00
what I meant okay, that's fine. Just yeah just go over, it's
42:03
fine. Just you know don't think don't
42:04
get over it for. It was just so you know.
42:09
And like I said I'm not going to It is not the sort of thing that
42:13
I'm going to like, say, fuck it. I'm not going to play over.
42:18
But if if I'm thinking about it from the standpoint of either,
42:23
I'm a designer making a game or I'm someone looking at a game
42:27
considering if I want to buy it. If I look and you're only or
42:31
your primary method or like a method of like, XP reward is
42:35
Milestone, you know, when you get to a quote-unquote big story
42:39
arc, I'm gonna be less inclined to pay money, you know.
42:45
Yeah. Yeah.
42:48
And I understand the arguments for it, by the way, I just guess
42:54
the, the the cons outweigh the pros from now because I mean I'd
43:03
to be honest like because I'm I'm the opposite, but most of my
43:07
players they want to know and that's why when I did the strict
43:10
saving thing I just told them when they would like I'm like
43:13
alright so here's like the XP is the level up roadmap you guys do
43:17
the first year, you get to level 4, you do the second year of
43:21
school, you get to level 6, you know, third year school, you get
43:23
the low weight basically. Like you know, you they level up
43:27
twice every school year. Yeah.
43:29
Which are like okay. They're like all right.
43:31
That's fine. Then they're happy because they
43:33
know like, all right, so I'll hit Level, you know, I'll hit
43:35
Level 6 and then my bill will be, you know, unlocked at the
43:38
second year school. I'm all right.
43:40
Sure. You know, and that that helps
43:43
but there's still the problem of being like, Oh I think we should
43:47
get a level up for X y&z thing but the game doesn't like
43:50
there's, you know, it helps to know.
43:52
But also the other problem too, is you're not supposed to tell
43:57
your players, right? The way they assume you're going
43:59
to play the game is more organically where the Is just
44:01
level up when it happens. You're not supposed to like pre
44:04
inform them know, which is again, that's why I'm like, I
44:07
kind of like that. I like the or, you know, you
44:09
know, the story driven of the organic leveling, where you
44:12
don't know. But again, there are a lot of
44:14
people like, you know you but there's no, but they don't like
44:17
that baby. They are like I want to know
44:19
when the fuck him up. Yeah, I want to know what I'm
44:21
labeling so I can plan ahead, you know, I want to know exactly
44:24
which I get and then back again. That's not, that's why I think
44:26
it's fun. Like you were saying it's funny.
44:28
There's like two different like thought processes is like I'm
44:30
the Opposite. I'm like I don't want to fucking
44:32
know like, yeah, I'm like, I don't care about if I do
44:36
something cool. I love luck.
44:37
That's fine. If I do not like to look at your
44:39
XP bar, would you play RPGs like in video games that as I treat
44:45
them differently. I treat video games, and and
44:47
tabletop games differently. This is the other thing to all.
44:50
I got like, whenever you talk about this stuff, I I really,
44:53
for some reason don't like treating D&D table top games.
44:57
Like the video game like when I think about like reading
44:59
cat-like cyberpunk, Luke and then playing cyberpunk 2077.
45:03
I get two different like thought processes that that I'm not
45:06
anything happens with Dean D. I'm not saying they treated the
45:10
same. I'm aware, they're different
45:12
mediums. I'm not saying treat them the
45:13
same. I'm just saying you can use
45:16
lessons from one and apply them to the other.
45:19
Like, you can learn from them and apply them in both
45:22
directions. I don't think it goes with,
45:23
like, loved one. Like I agree with that.
45:27
You know, the crpg community would disagree with this.
45:31
Yes, they would considering they are just tabletop games
45:37
translated over into a virtual space.
45:41
Okay, hold on. Wait wait, wait, wait, wait.
45:43
I need to. I need to ask this.
45:44
I need to understand how, how Matt plays video games now.
45:47
So, Mary you're telling me if you're playing an RPG a video
45:52
game RPG, right? If you're playing cyberpunk or
45:54
you're playing Baldur's Gate or etc.
45:56
Etc. You don't look at your XP bar
46:02
and say, okay, how close am I to level up?
46:04
Should I do this next cut side quests?
46:06
Or should I continue to make like do you not do that?
46:08
You're not like look at where you're about to level and what
46:11
you're going to get next for your next level and all that do
46:14
you? It depends on the game.
46:15
It depends. If I'm doing the story mode, I
46:17
don't give a shit. I don't give a shit.
46:18
What level I am? Well if I'm not doing a quest
46:22
because I need money. Well, let's assume it's an open
46:24
world situation like cyberpunk. So you can decide when you're
46:26
doing the main story. Not really because mostly what
46:31
cyberpunk it's all about trying to get that fucking money trying
46:34
to get the money. So I can buy the stupid fans
46:36
that blow your mind as much as it blows my mind.
46:39
I listened a little mouse. I thought you guys aren't having
46:42
as much fun playing video games as I am not looking at that as
46:48
people are and knowing. Okay, I'm about to level up.
46:50
What do I want to get next? That's part of the farm, I'ma be
46:53
honest. When I, when I play depending on
46:55
the game of course, like when I play Fire Emblem, a lot of the
46:58
time. My entire go.
46:59
Goal is just to level people up. But yeah, that's kind of kind of
47:04
the point, quote unquote. But like, yeah, well, if you
47:06
want, like, like Pokemon like that, I understand what polkas
47:09
like you want to get the stronger man.
47:11
So you want to level up your Pokemons and they evolve and
47:13
watch it that I get. I don't know why with RPG for
47:17
some reason. I don't, you know, I just don't
47:19
care about it. Yeah, I know Pokemons like yeah,
47:21
I know. I'm on this.
47:29
He don't care about, I don't know for leveling up.
47:34
I know it's really talking about grinding.
47:38
That's there. That's a little different.
47:39
I'm just saying just General xpeke, her know, you know, you
47:44
know, you know, getting money in cyberpunk bey's grind.
47:46
Okay. It is rising crime, but I'm
47:52
doing multiple things like it's like, yeah, sure.
47:54
I'm I'm fighting people. So I'm gaining XP on the side
47:57
but I'm also getting money. I'm getting like all the little
48:00
gadgets and shits like a fucking.
48:01
Yeah, Raph shit and you don't want to apply any of that to a
48:07
tabletop game. Not really.
48:09
No, like not like XP bars or seat but Matt, you do know that
48:14
having I mean like, you know, if you're using Mi so you don't
48:17
technically have a Next people are like mad, if you use an
48:19
expiry system, it is just an XP bar.
48:21
It's just new my numerical instead of our orientation.
48:27
Yes, there's something I guess that's that's that's literally
48:31
how it works that way. Okay, this is very strange to
48:37
me. I don't see a lot of open world
48:50
games, because they feel exactly the same to me.
48:52
This is what I do. Like I think the ones that I've
48:56
had the most fun in our Completely different from their
49:01
ears. Okay.
49:01
So I should say. So, I'm not because I think
49:05
opens RPG. Elements are actually a little
49:08
overdone in video game. They absolutely are just they
49:11
just kind of added like the Diablo style loot system in
49:14
video games. I think it's got a little a
49:22
discount system where if you got a weapon upgrade you got it.
49:26
Good job, some. Okay, I want to ask Matt
49:30
something because I feel like, I feel like I've unlocked a new
49:33
understanding. Standing about him that I'm now,
49:36
I need to know more and I'm not, this is not me judging.
49:39
I just, I'm curious at this point.
49:41
Okay? So let's assume you're not
49:45
dming, you're a player. Okay, you're playing a new game,
49:50
many any new tabletop game doesn't matter if are you you're
49:56
reading through and whatever what you're saying is, If the if
50:03
the advancement because some get some tabletop games don't even
50:06
use levels which is like kind of a separate thing.
50:08
But yeah advancement will say Star Wars uses Trucking talent
50:11
trees doesn't use levels for example.
50:14
So if the advancement of the game you go to that section and
50:18
it says you advance when the GM decides you have hit like a big
50:25
sorry b or the GM decides. You have done something notable
50:28
enough to earn an advancement. You see That and that is the
50:32
ideal scenario for you. And yeah, maybe I'm not in the
50:35
game. Have you ever watched an episode
50:37
of critical role bud? Oh, what?
50:41
There you go. Looks like they do the shit that
50:43
shit all the time. Well, I mean, no, the doll and
50:46
campaign one map. Mercer kept track of his be
50:48
saying campaign one. I'm saying they do that.
50:51
They did that campaign to. They do it in campaign 30k.
50:54
Sure, the New York Times, if I'm asked about multiple times, he's
50:56
been like God. I wish I did this again thing.
50:59
I ask you about critical role, I'm here, but I'm saying as an
51:02
example, that's a thing that most people want, I'm not asking
51:05
to India's. I just want to know for you.
51:08
Ask me. Yes.
51:09
Yeah so yes. So you want the GM to hand you
51:12
out your level up whenever they decide?
51:14
Yeah. If it's a if it's the right
51:16
moment whether it's a story moment, whether it's a big fight
51:19
like I don't it's weird because I don't think I like again we
51:22
like we're two different thought process in this.
51:25
I don't think about stuff. That's like God.
51:26
I hope I love the up now. It's like and I hate saying this
51:32
because I know like a couple of my players do this too but like
51:34
I don't like the idea of like looking ahead and building Mike.
51:37
Character and all that stuff and working backwards.
51:40
I want the game to go on and whatever happens to my character
51:44
happens, kind of like, fucking what happened with vaccine
51:46
campaign, one where he wasn't fucking playing ongoing palette
51:50
it, that's no thought to do that and then because of story shit,
51:55
it happened. Sure.
51:56
And I'm not, I'm not against that, I'm just It sounds like
52:01
you I mean I can't I can't there is no, there's no Common Ground.
52:06
I'd I cannot reconcile with this, but it sounds like you're
52:09
almost you. Don't you're sort of taking the
52:13
game out of tabletop games. Like you don't think of them
52:17
in-game terms as much, whatever. She's like a gamer.
52:22
Yeah, like, you're not seeing SMS game, so much as you're
52:25
thinking about them, is like role playing his story
52:29
experience, like you don't, I don't want to say, don't I get a
52:31
want to see, you don't care. But you're less invested in the
52:34
mechanics like a game can have shitty mechanics and you can
52:37
like put up with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:41
See, this is, this is, this is all right, but like, I enjoy
52:44
like hot, you know, I enjoy combat.
52:46
We've learned that. This is, this is, this is, yeah,
52:49
sure. I mean, specifics of like
52:50
individual things but we've learned I feel like I've had a
52:56
revelation. Yeah, me and Matt just, we sit
53:00
on opposite sides at the tape. There's no middle.
53:03
I mean we're glad to finally have this realization.
53:14
I mean I knew it but now I get what now now we've put it into
53:17
words that cares about the are in the P.
53:21
I care more about the g c over here.
53:25
About the one chain. That's, that's the most, I can't
53:27
believe and believe Matt cares about each for them because a
53:32
big p big p. Okay.
53:36
Okay. That was a little bit of a that
53:38
was a little bit of a derail that but an interesting
53:40
Discovery. Nonetheless.
53:42
I mean it, I mean, it definitely it was kind of in line with the
53:46
question. Do the fact that it had to do
53:48
with the mechanics? Yeah.
53:49
Okay, Max answer is basically I just don't care.
53:52
Well, I don't know if my example is going to count then.
53:55
I don't like it Mets. Answer is and I don't care but
53:57
he's definitely he's not as like his invention about the
54:01
mechanical design. The way.
54:02
I am. No not really.
54:03
Yeah now okay Sam, where do you fall on that?
54:07
I'm kind of in between honestly, like I don't hate roll like role
54:11
play experience, I don't hate Milestone experience.
54:18
But I do like having some mechanical knowledge of it like
54:22
happening like using the video game example.
54:25
Again, I do like to know when something is going to occur.
54:31
Although so okay, so there's a game that I played recently
54:35
those fire Tokyo on its hardest difficulty.
54:39
You don't gain levels, you just don't, okay?
54:44
So you have to go and do specific objectives to gain
54:47
levels, and gain points to put into your skills.
54:51
Do you do? You don't get like XP.
54:53
You just get skill points on the hardest difficulty.
54:56
Yeah, so you, you will just get skill points by doing specific
54:59
things, okay? Versus getting skill points
55:03
because you're leveling and you're doing the specific class
55:05
so it like a lower difficulties do both, okay?
55:08
Um, I'll be honest having to do a specific thing to get a level
55:11
or in this case, a skill point, either video game, unless it has
55:18
specifically story-driven is really annoying. like, it's kind
55:23
of like a Chinese Child. Sobbing hate it.
55:27
I don't like, she ain't either. I know you don't.
55:29
All right? I like developers being like,
55:33
hey, here's this silly little challenge.
55:36
It literally means nothing. We just thought of it.
55:38
Go do it. Yeah.
55:39
Like usually, that's how I treat achievements.
55:42
It's just developer going. Hey, we thought of this silly
55:44
little thing. You could go do it.
55:45
If you watch is like that which is why they don't bother me like
55:47
them because they are just that basically.
55:50
Yeah, but like when the mechanic is, you know, like it's weird
55:56
that I say that Mi sun doesn't bother me that much when this
55:59
particular instance does, You know having to go out and do
56:04
something for specific skill, like to get skills at least in
56:07
this game. It's like You kind of want to
56:11
have as many skill points as possible because, you know, it's
56:15
your health, it's your abilities.
56:16
It's how well you're doing in combat etcetera.
56:20
It's just really, really annoying when everything that's
56:23
tied to this, you can't even upgrade because the game says
56:27
LOL, no, mmm. Like in tabletop where it's
56:34
like, I don't know, when this is going to happen, I know we have
56:37
to do something specific that the GM has in mind and, you
56:41
know, he met bait it with a big fucking hook.
56:43
So usually do with Milestone and let me like, yeah, Rewritten
56:46
Adventure. You know, it's kind of whatever
56:50
to me, because I'm just there to play the game.
56:53
At least I'm tabletop RPGs but when it comes to a video game, I
56:57
hate that. Hmm.
56:58
It's like Brahma loan and I might know the objective and it
57:03
might just be really annoying or some stupid thing.
57:07
So I'd rather just, you know, have her traditional experience
57:09
system but that yeah, yeah, that that's that goes back to the
57:14
having the open-ended on the methodology part.
57:18
Yeah. I actually do have an example.
57:24
I don't know if this amount, but is more of a mechanical thing
57:28
from Call of Cthulhu. We're like every time you use a
57:31
skill in a session at the end of the session you roll and I don't
57:36
remember if it's like if you were I think you roll a D6 and
57:38
if you got a six that's skill increases by like a plus one or
57:42
whatever. Well as the more you use skills
57:44
in the game you get better at them over time.
57:46
You can get better at them. I'm yeah I like that.
57:49
I think that's I think that's kind of cool.
57:50
Burning Wheel has a similar but a more little more intricate and
57:55
why idea basically you have to use use skills to get better at
57:58
them. Yeah, it's it.
58:00
And, you know, I have it having that kind of, oh, you have to do
58:03
a specific thing to do like it again in a tabletop is a lot
58:07
different than, hey, I need you to go collect 50 cat from there
58:15
at island so that I can give you this one.
58:20
The skill point and it's like, I won Vive, Le dirt fucking video
58:28
where it says, like, I need you to pick 45 berries in the
58:33
volcanic ash. Yes.
58:34
He's I find a random like Dart laughs.
58:36
He's like, holding, like, picking, like exactly what
58:41
you're talking about. Yeah, I recently watched that
58:44
skip that. I love that channel.
58:47
Yeah. Have a good grasp.
58:57
Got the internet. She's on the bed for a second.
59:09
Okay, listen, I feel like we've answered this question,
59:11
especially from Josh's perspective so I'm just gonna
59:14
ask Matt. Matt, how do you feel about
59:18
getting rewarded for? Role play and combat.
59:22
And whatever the hell you do in a game spective, I think it's
59:27
good, they go, you know, it's real good.
59:33
Thank you. Olga messaging my TED talk, you
59:36
know, honestly I do You know, you do like you get
59:53
reward for combat, you know, even if it's something small, it
59:55
could be gold. It could be like learning a new
59:58
thing about the monster we just fought whatever you know,
1:00:01
roleplay, yeah, same thing, even if it's like a cool interaction,
1:00:04
it doesn't have to be like a again I don't care if it's like
1:00:06
a tangible thing, even if it's like the tiniest little like,
1:00:12
you know, reward. I'm fine.
1:00:14
Now, I'm happy. Okay.
1:00:16
Okay. Another question.
1:00:18
You like that, you like that? You like the small No moose.
1:00:21
Yes. Anytime you do something in
1:00:23
question, has now formed in my brain.
1:00:26
Mmm, and, and perfect. This isn't, this is a specific
1:00:30
back question. What's on puts on?
1:00:33
Professor goes Matt. I'm learning a lot.
1:00:35
I'm learning a lot about you. This is, this is episode is
1:00:40
actually just learning about math.
1:00:41
Yeah, no I just just before I ask I just want to be clear.
1:00:46
I'm not saying I'm like anti role-playing.
1:00:49
Right, it might come off that. I heard it here first folks.
1:00:52
He's anti-ro playing get em because it might come on.
1:00:54
Like I can understand as he deeply scan.
1:00:56
I could be listening, right? And it might come off.
1:00:58
I'm like I don't give a shit about the role, playing part of
1:01:01
the role playing game. Know, if that were the case I
1:01:03
would just play board games. I do give a shit about the story
1:01:05
in the role-playing part. That's not me.
1:01:07
Like I'm not like against that. Hey, just specifically when
1:01:10
we're talking about I just really like mechanic.
1:01:13
I really what it comes down to is I just really like game
1:01:15
design and I get excited and interested when I see the cool
1:01:19
mechanical game design. The game is really what a lot of
1:01:22
that is. Okay, but so okay, Matt.
1:01:27
So let's so enter in Our in our, in our hypothetical.
1:01:30
I mean, it's guess it's not even hypothetically in r5v game where
1:01:32
the plant, where the GM has decided to, you know, actually,
1:01:35
no, let me know. Remi rephrases.
1:01:37
All right. Okay, wind it back.
1:01:41
It. Let's say, so the you're playing
1:01:43
and the GM has decided, you will be rewarded for role playing.
1:01:47
The GM will give you x p when you do, you know what unquote?
1:01:51
Like good role? Players something cool excetera,
1:01:53
right? Okay, and then something happens
1:01:57
in the game where you Do something that you thought was
1:02:00
super dope. And you're like, oh, I'm gonna
1:02:03
get such fat XP at the end of this session that was super
1:02:05
fucking cool. And then the end of the session
1:02:07
comes around and the you say to the jam.
1:02:10
So, how much xp do I get for that thing?
1:02:11
I did. And the GM says, oh no, I'm not
1:02:13
giving you XP for that. I don't think that was good
1:02:16
role. Play, what?
1:02:19
What is, what is your response in that scenario?
1:02:21
Because that is like, for me, at least that is the ultimen like,
1:02:28
That's the ultimate bad scenario.
1:02:30
When you're talking about handing out XP for role play and
1:02:33
it's up to the GI what the role places, I don't like handing out
1:02:37
XP for roll. Well, Milestones is kind of the
1:02:40
same idea. Well, there's a difference
1:02:43
between role-playing and lovely big leveling.
1:02:46
It's a little easier role-playing.
1:02:48
It's like, like you you even said, worst case scenario,
1:02:51
that's based on the dungeon Master's preference.
1:02:54
I think he's talking about using experience as a leveling system
1:02:57
for another milestone. No, no.
1:02:59
What I'm saying is because you said before, Matt, that your
1:03:02
ideal game, the GM just decides when you level, basically that
1:03:08
was what you said, right? So what I'm saying is, yeah, you
1:03:12
something happens in the game and you get excited, you're
1:03:15
like, oh we're definitely going to get XP.
1:03:17
Or we're definitely gonna get a level up for this thing that
1:03:19
just happened or this thing that my character did and then the GM
1:03:22
says, no I'm not rewarding you for that.
1:03:25
Like how do you reconcile that scenario?
1:03:29
Yeah, no I'm that situation. I'd feel bad but I don't need
1:03:33
like, like remember the thing you said with the Bramble, not
1:03:36
the Bramble patch, the phone fucking brains a clutch Bramble
1:03:40
patch. It was a broom that's like,
1:03:41
yeah, like I don't know. I don't have that like unless
1:03:46
it's something like crazy big. Like you just killed a dragon.
1:03:50
I don't think about it like I don't think like oh this is
1:03:52
definitely an XP like moment like I don't think this is a
1:03:56
level up moment so you're saying you don't run into that problem
1:03:58
because you don't even You don't even know it doesn't talk.
1:04:00
Doesn't cross my mind. I'm not even consider it.
1:04:03
No not unless it's something like again something fucking
1:04:06
super major. So it's like you just killed a
1:04:09
fucking trap. So basically XP isn't even in
1:04:12
your brain until the GM. Says the words XP that or is
1:04:16
that kind of like? I mean I'm being a little.
1:04:18
Yeah I being slightly hyperbolic but like it's good.
1:04:20
Yeah yeah. Okay.
1:04:22
Alright I interesting. Okay that's very strange because
1:04:26
I just because I just I just so much Not like actually gets a
1:04:30
system is so it's such a fucking age-old, fucking thing from like
1:04:34
you know back in the old and d and e times, I think you have
1:04:37
your brain that may be a little too tied to like the specific
1:04:41
Way D and D does XP because like so many games do what you would
1:04:48
call XP in such a more elegant and interesting way.
1:04:51
And it almost doesn't even really feel like XP.
1:04:54
But yeah, the Josh, those gangs aren't as popular so it doesn't
1:04:58
matter. Oh my I know I'm not
1:05:14
probably, it is probably mostly probably just because of how, I
1:05:17
know Dee Dee's XP system to be. I've tried it very much in like
1:05:21
it merely switch the mouse down was easier.
1:05:23
So either system might do it better.
1:05:25
What if I'm just also on? I'm, you know, I don't want Like
1:05:29
the I'm set in my ways person but like you are a little
1:05:32
Milestone. Is I feel like it's easier.
1:05:35
It's just so much easier as a dungeon master it's one thing
1:05:37
Milestone is definitely easier as a dungeon master.
1:05:40
Yes, that's not that. That's a fair point.
1:05:43
And it's the yeah the question isn't the he's so it's not the
1:05:46
he's it's what you enjoy and not necessarily to use but to be
1:05:51
given. And so the difference here is
1:05:55
that, you know, you don't like to think about experience.
1:05:58
So, Which is exciting. Milestone praising me, which is
1:06:02
given to you, it's fine, you know that's that's just the way
1:06:05
that you would enjoy to do it because it's not something that
1:06:07
you have to constantly think about.
1:06:09
It's not worried about it, it's Gallows trust there we go.
1:06:13
So but then my question like I understand where that comes from
1:06:16
that like I you know I'm not I'm not a hardcore one way or the
1:06:20
other because I think that they both have uses and I think that
1:06:22
both are perfectly fine. Like and sometimes, you know, I
1:06:28
don't want to think about experience because, you know, at
1:06:32
certain points, you know, it does.
1:06:35
And this is the question that I asked, I know you looked at it
1:06:40
map, like sometimes it does affect the way that you play the
1:06:45
game. Yeah, all right.
1:06:46
Hold on, hold on. Pause that thought because I
1:06:49
just, I'm just, I'm gonna. So, I just wanna throw quick
1:06:50
hypothetical out here. So man, as you mentioned, the
1:06:54
Call of Cthulhu thing, right? yeah, so that's that's That type
1:06:59
of mechanic where it's like, oh the skill gets better, when you
1:07:02
use it, that's essentially still XP.
1:07:05
It's just XP. It didn't write like you're just
1:07:08
adding a level of off shoes off you station to the XP you'll
1:07:11
experience, but it stands for us is also a dungeon because
1:07:13
everything is right. Exactly, so it's know, it
1:07:15
literally don't know, literally, Matt, it's the same idea.
1:07:18
Yeah, I know it is, I know, but what I want to say is, hold on,
1:07:21
hold on, let me and just want to ask.
1:07:23
So, Let's say, I don't know how the fuck this would work, but
1:07:27
let's just assume in a hypothetical Universe.
1:07:29
Let's say D and D. Use the Call of Cthulhu skill
1:07:33
system. Yeah.
1:07:35
As its form of improvement that's why we should really be
1:07:37
using the word Improvement. That's really the more Universal
1:07:40
learn but anyway, right. Would you be into that I think
1:07:45
it'd be cool. Okay, so you really so you you
1:07:49
have beef with the traditional style of XP.
1:07:53
It's the Eric, it seems like, yeah.
1:07:55
Right. Like the very traditional going
1:07:57
to dungeon kill the monsters and or get the or in old old DND.
1:08:02
Get the loot to get XP. You have beef with that old
1:08:04
system. Hmm.
1:08:07
Okay, interesting. Okay, that I understand a bit
1:08:10
more. At that I get because I will say
1:08:13
if I'm playing in our if I'm looking at a new RPG and the
1:08:17
only way to get XP is like when you fight a monster, you get XP.
1:08:20
I'm definitely not super excited about that but most RPGs
1:08:24
actually don't do that. Most RPGs actually have some
1:08:26
pretty interesting ways of rewarding.
1:08:29
Or rewarding Improvement points. I should say hey usually work
1:08:33
more skillful scale. Yeah that's why it's a good
1:08:37
generic word. Yeah.
1:08:40
Alright some Sam. Where are you going?
1:08:41
Because I was just had II. He's so-so.
1:08:47
So the question really was influential enjoy get getting
1:08:52
rewarded or like playing the character or playing to the
1:08:57
system, or do you think that playing that way is literally
1:09:02
only influenced by the system being like, hey, you get
1:09:04
rewarded for this like so, for instance, you know, let's say
1:09:10
that. I'm going to use the Sunday game
1:09:12
for an example, you know, Sunday game, you know, we have bonds
1:09:17
flaws, whatever, you know, dictated by the Indie
1:09:20
backgrounds and we get experience for role-playing to
1:09:23
those flaws bonds, whatever, definitely has a like an
1:09:29
influence on how we play our characters, and it is how we've
1:09:32
written our characters, because, you know, bombs and flaws.
1:09:36
Those are Character specific traits is you know what they do
1:09:42
influence us to play that specific way.
1:09:46
So other games have different systems and they definitely, you
1:09:51
know, make players Do certain things.
1:09:57
And and hit should actually here's, here's a little thought
1:10:01
for that. If you have not used a, you get
1:10:05
experience for role-playing system before what other people
1:10:10
in your party have, and that's like the main way that you're
1:10:12
getting experience. Sometimes you leave people in
1:10:15
the dust because they're not sure as to how to how to use
1:10:17
that system. So it can deeply affect the way
1:10:22
that the game is played. Yeah, that's that is why I think
1:10:28
it's good to have multiple Evan. I agree.
1:10:34
I absolutely agree. So All right, I have kind of a
1:10:40
long. I had have kind of, what is the
1:10:42
prize? I have a long-winded answer.
1:10:43
So Matt, you want to go ahead. Have a thought.
1:10:47
Do you want to know on a letterhead, empty and empty?
1:10:50
I'm sorry, shitposting or you being sir.
1:10:53
Now, you go for it. Go for it, man.
1:10:56
So yeah. So the idea of I mean, this is
1:11:00
my big thing, this is like the Crux of when you say, this is
1:11:09
what my game is about. The way you hand out your board
1:11:13
or Improvement is what your game is about.
1:11:18
All right, so I've made this joke before but you're playing a
1:11:23
game about bank robbers and the game does not reward you for
1:11:27
robbing banks. And instead rewards you for
1:11:29
hanging out with cops your game is not about bank-robbing,
1:11:33
right? So yeah, I think the idea that
1:11:41
the XP rewards influence the style of play, I think is not
1:11:47
only a good a idea but like, kind of a mandatory thing if you
1:11:53
want to make your game really work, you know is most people
1:11:58
You know, when they set out to make a game they're trying to
1:12:00
generally make a game about a specific thing or about a
1:12:03
specific tone. So when you're trying to figure
1:12:08
out how to reinforce the tone your game away you reward, the
1:12:12
re the players are rewarded is what will give that
1:12:15
reinforcement. So in all D and D, you know,
1:12:19
second edition, the point of the game was to go and Dungeons and
1:12:25
get Loop. How did the game enforce that or
1:12:28
reinforce that got XP or getting Loop?
1:12:32
That was how you Advanced every every gold was worth a point of
1:12:36
XP or whatever. I don't know if it was exactly
1:12:38
that but that was you know just is gold.
1:12:40
Gave you XP? So yeah, I think it's I think
1:12:49
it's a basically, I think it's a good thing.
1:12:51
If your XP system is influencing your players in a specific
1:12:54
direction that is with the tone of the game.
1:12:58
I think that's a good thing. I think that's, you know, the
1:13:04
problem of some players getting like left in the dust or
1:13:11
whatever. I think there's no perfect way
1:13:16
to solve this, because at the end of the day, it's a
1:13:19
role-playing game. You have to interact a certain
1:13:22
amount. So, if you have a player who
1:13:24
sits down on the table, and just never says, anything no amount
1:13:27
of game mechanics is going to fix that.
1:13:29
And I'll like yep, you have to interact a certain amount but
1:13:33
you can mitigate that by making sure that it's not only one
1:13:38
style of play that gets rewarded.
1:13:42
And I wanted to end its serendipitous that we brought
1:13:45
this up because cyberpunk red actually has a pretty
1:13:49
interesting idea about this. I'm II waffle back and forth. on
1:13:58
how I feel about it, like, how much I like it or don't like it,
1:14:00
because it is, it is a little bit of the GM hands.
1:14:06
You a cookie, kind of. So the first thing is in
1:14:10
cyberpunk red, because it's a cyberpunk game, you complete a
1:14:14
mission, you do a run, you get XP, which is very standard,
1:14:18
makes sense, right? And the whole party gets that
1:14:20
XP. So you complete a run, the whole
1:14:21
party gets 30 XP. That makes sense.
1:14:24
That's very cyberpunk. Ian Wright, checks out. but the
1:14:29
other thing is, you can get what's called play style based
1:14:34
Improvement. And I think this is interesting.
1:14:37
So what this gate? So what the game says is
1:14:41
actually I'll just read this verbatim unlike other tabletop
1:14:44
games cyber put, I don't like that phrase but this is
1:14:48
cyberpunk red uses a system called playstyle Improvement.
1:14:52
This is a type of improvement that allows the GM to reward
1:14:55
each player, based on their preferred type of gameplay and
1:14:59
their level of participation in that game play.
1:15:06
The the so the types of gameplay you have Warriors socializers
1:15:12
explorers and role players. So if you have a warrior player
1:15:16
that basically means, as you might imagine, combat-oriented
1:15:20
player who likes to engage in test of skill against the
1:15:23
Aventure adversaries, a socializer player is a social
1:15:28
Orient player that's all about the overall game experience.
1:15:31
They like to tell jokes record stories, contribute ways that
1:15:34
are not directly within the game in and Of the game, they tend to
1:15:37
take supportive roles, explorers exploration oriented players
1:15:42
that like to find new things in the world, they'd like to make
1:15:44
friends and alliances and new places and things to experience.
1:15:47
They also love to solve non-combat, related, puzzles and
1:15:50
Mysteries Sam. This is basically how you're
1:15:52
playing Leah Explorer 1, and then role players, which is
1:15:57
roleplay oriented players that like to concentrate on playing
1:15:59
their character as accurately as possible.
1:16:02
They enjoy structuring elaborate backgrounds, often, including
1:16:05
personal props and Pictures Diaries.
1:16:07
They enjoy acting out. Important scenes of speeches,
1:16:09
are elaborate descriptions. This is an interesting idea
1:16:13
because the player gets to say this is the type of player I am.
1:16:18
I would like to be rewarded for the type of player.
1:16:22
I am and they predetermined that ahead of time before they start,
1:16:27
they pick one of the four and then you as the GM and out the
1:16:33
XP to them. When they sort of act out one of
1:16:36
Of the like prompts within one of those four options.
1:16:41
I like I said, there's still a little bit of the GM giving you
1:16:44
a cookie in there, right? Because the GM gets to decide if
1:16:48
you hit your thing or not, I will say a really easy fix for
1:16:53
this and a fix that. I personally really like is just
1:16:57
let the players bow. Hey, so if you have four
1:17:02
players, one player is the one who is asking, did I get XP?
1:17:07
The other three players vote to agree on whether that player got
1:17:10
XP or not? That's a really easy way to make
1:17:13
it a group thing and to sort of take the jams hands off of it, I
1:17:16
think that's a good option or the other option.
1:17:22
And some people might think this is crazy but this is technically
1:17:24
how blades in the dark Works rules as written a player
1:17:28
decides for himself, whether they got XP or not.
1:17:33
And some people, don't some people hear that and think
1:17:37
that's a bunkers idea. Can you are spending on your
1:17:42
group? Like, you'll have the honest
1:17:44
player who will actually, you have the people who depart the
1:17:48
person that doesn't give themselves enough XP is, they
1:17:51
don't want to seem like they're cheating.
1:17:53
And then you have the complete opposite who guy will just like
1:17:55
a two steps to me like, crap. I got XP guys.
1:17:57
All right, I did my exploratory. And just so that so that is a,
1:18:03
that is See why I mentioned earlier.
1:18:05
When you have a player who has never used a system like this
1:18:08
you run into the same problem. Yeah.
1:18:10
Where they're not sure what they should be rewarded for to.
1:18:12
They don't ask. I will say a very clear example
1:18:16
of this is me and Isaiah have characters that game experience
1:18:21
like crazy because we player characters a very specific way
1:18:25
and almost always get experience every session.
1:18:28
Whereas before we reach the point where we're at now the
1:18:32
other two players did Not do that because they weren't sure
1:18:35
as to how to approach the system.
1:18:37
It's long Bond a little bit, although not that much.
1:18:40
But a bit like, I mean, at one point, it got some nearly two
1:18:43
levels, it got close. Yeah.
1:18:44
Oh, Jesus got close, not quite but it got close.
1:18:48
This is very close to what was I think.
1:18:49
I was just thousand experience off of a level.
1:18:52
Yeah, by the time they hit a level so the same level I will.
1:18:56
So I will say this about that whole thing or one.
1:19:01
One thing that's good is cyberpunk.
1:19:03
For each of the four types of players they have, they have a
1:19:07
little table that has yes essentially prompts that are you
1:19:13
know, various ways you get XP. So like in the Warrior people's,
1:19:17
huh more tables? Oh yeah, I mean same tables.
1:19:21
Good of tables. So like in the Warrior box it
1:19:25
says defeat an enemy in battle gained a powerful tool or
1:19:28
weapon. Proved your skill in battle real
1:19:30
to hunt that one's kind of vague.
1:19:33
Make the most Most powerful character, establish a
1:19:35
stronghold like they do have to replicate.
1:19:38
Yeah, that one, I don't know that little if you want.
1:19:40
Well, like they do have specific prompts for each of the four
1:19:44
types to help so that will help sort of guide, the player in the
1:19:47
direction. But yeah, when it comes to, the
1:19:51
idea of self deciding the XP, You know, I understand, yeah,
1:19:59
like what you said, Matt totally can happen.
1:20:03
I think what people will probably be the, I think you'll
1:20:07
get maybe one out of ten times. They'll get the player that
1:20:10
tries to give himself too much xp, but I think most of the time
1:20:14
you'll get the be honest purse. Yes, we'll get the person who's
1:20:16
like, you know, I only got 50 XP and then you'll have someone the
1:20:20
grouping like, no, dude, you did that really cool thing.
1:20:23
You just you need to get more XP.
1:20:24
We don't think that's actually exactly what I was.
1:20:26
To say Matt is there every time I've seen this, that's what I
1:20:30
see is layers, get surprisingly honest, but also very the word
1:20:41
like very self analyzing. Yeah.
1:20:44
I noticed a lot of the time when you, when you say the player
1:20:46
that you get to adjudicate your XP for yourself, they're much
1:20:51
more introspective and analyze their character a lot more than
1:20:55
they would normally. Lee and then it kind of leads to
1:21:00
them like playing their character, not better, but more
1:21:06
like, more in-depth, like more three dimensional Which is
1:21:10
interesting. So even in my game, technically
1:21:16
the system we have in place is one of the players says, I think
1:21:20
I should get XP for this and the other three players vote, right?
1:21:23
That is the system I'm using my game.
1:21:27
However, what I've noticed is every single time a player says,
1:21:33
I think I should get XP for this.
1:21:36
Everyone agrees every time and if a player doesn't think they
1:21:42
should get XP, they just don't even say anything.
1:21:45
I guess I've had multiple sessions where like actually
1:21:49
basically every session at least one person almost every session,
1:21:52
at least one person says, no. I don't think I did anything to
1:21:55
justify XP. Yeah.
1:21:57
And I'm not and I'm not hold it. I'm not forcing them.
1:22:00
I'm not telling them. And when they make their
1:22:03
arguments for their XP, every time I say, you're talking to
1:22:06
the Players? You're not talking to me and but
1:22:09
every single time everyone always agrees.
1:22:11
And if the player didn't do anything to earn XP, they
1:22:14
honestly say no, I didn't do anything to earn it.
1:22:16
So it's like, it seems like a system like yeah, that's totally
1:22:20
ripe for abuse of the power gamer but depends on your
1:22:24
players really? It does.
1:22:25
But it is I have seen it be surprisingly effective and
1:22:30
honest which is how, I don't know.
1:22:33
It's interesting to say the least.
1:22:36
Now I'm gonna I think having good players will do that to,
1:22:39
you know, well even though I've even like watched games where
1:22:42
that's still been the case. So yeah, I don't know.
1:22:46
It's interesting is it going to work 100% now?
1:22:49
I mean no but then again like a reward systems gonna work on
1:22:55
percent so you know there's that too.
1:23:00
Yeah, I think cyberpunk has a pretty interesting.
1:23:05
Idea about handling, kind of what you were talking about, Sam
1:23:08
where a certain player doesn't necessarily want to make a
1:23:11
specific thing, but we like to play like, they like to do other
1:23:13
stuff. I haven't tried the cyberpunk
1:23:17
system obviously, so or not. Obviously, I haven't tried the
1:23:21
cyberpunk system, so I can't say how good or not good, it is in
1:23:26
play well idea. Okay.
1:23:34
And over that, right? You haven't had any any real say
1:23:42
in this so far. Which was the question.
1:23:47
It was the phrase. Again, I would say it's been a
1:23:52
enjoy getting rewarded or you know, roleplay mechanic or
1:23:57
whatever or do you think that it's just a little too forceful.
1:24:01
It's too pushy. Um, I think of it, this may be a
1:24:04
little like again, if the rewards tiny, I'll be happy and,
1:24:09
you know, it doesn't have to be anything.
1:24:10
Crazy doesn't have to be major like even if it's like all the
1:24:15
NPC. Talking to you know heating up
1:24:17
you guys are relationship. Reward Point goes up by one or
1:24:21
it gives you a thumbs up or he says he owes you a favor or some
1:24:23
shit. Okay.
1:24:25
Well I think little little thing man I'm just hearing that you're
1:24:28
really easy to please. Yeah seriously.
1:24:30
Yeah. Well I think you don't really
1:24:32
care what's going on. You, you just you're just there
1:24:36
for the ride. I get the because idea that
1:24:39
there's a force players, like stay in character.
1:24:41
I have a deal. You still like, it can force
1:24:44
players to stay in character to First players to think that they
1:24:47
have play a specific way to play a certain way is, do you have
1:24:50
beef with that part of it like being forced to certain
1:24:53
direction? Not for spite incentivizes our
1:24:56
direct I think no because I'm I don't really I've never been in
1:25:01
that situation or I haven't really seen a situation where
1:25:04
like like you were saying like players are rewarded for role
1:25:07
playing and there's one player. Who's just the quiet person and
1:25:10
they don't say shit. I've never been in that
1:25:12
situation. I haven't really seen it though,
1:25:14
too often. So just for me like I don't I
1:25:18
don't think like it sounds like I can be an issue but I've never
1:25:21
really dealt. I don't know.
1:25:23
I don't think it would be that big of an issue because even if
1:25:27
like you have that quiet person in your game like the DM and
1:25:32
other players like I'm in the Storm King Sunder game.
1:25:35
One of the players she specifically like he made a
1:25:39
ranger in want to talk the only really talked to her animal that
1:25:43
was it. So I constantly my My player
1:25:46
would constantly ask her questions and try and like, talk
1:25:49
to her to get her to like, you know, engage in the game.
1:25:55
The GM would do the same thing. And yeah, then never, you know,
1:25:58
eventually she, she stopped being the quiet person.
1:26:03
So I was like, you know, that's not that wasn't really like a
1:26:06
thing of like, I'm doing this to, like be annoying.
1:26:09
It's like, no, I want. I feel bad.
1:26:10
This player is not really saying much.
1:26:11
Maybe I do, maybe they're shy or maybe they just Don't know what,
1:26:16
you know what's going on? Maybe I can like, I hope but I
1:26:21
don't know. I don't.
1:26:22
Yeah, it's weird because like, the force is saying character
1:26:24
thing. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't
1:26:28
think that's like a, I don't think that's a thing that
1:26:31
happens that often least from my experience.
1:26:34
All right. I mostly asked that question
1:26:37
because sometimes when you play a game and like, Matt, I know,
1:26:45
the way that you play games is very not like you, you're not
1:26:49
worried about it, you're just playing it.
1:26:51
But sometimes people think that they eventually have to play the
1:26:55
game a certain way because the game only rewards them for
1:26:59
playing that way I get is this like the people who Yeah, I
1:27:06
constantly drunk the been maxing munchkins.
1:27:08
You know? It's the people.
1:27:08
You know it's like if I don't operate now it's my character.
1:27:11
Like if I'm playing a monk and I'm not playing the monk that D
1:27:14
is the most damage. I'm not winning D&D, I'm not
1:27:17
doing it right. Yeah.
1:27:18
Yeah I bet that I get I don't like it but I get it.
1:27:23
Exactly. That's kind of out of the
1:27:25
direction. I was going with it because it's
1:27:27
like sometimes people do feel forced to play a specific way is
1:27:29
or newer players will also feel that way a little bit.
1:27:32
Hi. Yeah.
1:27:33
Because you know that oh the mechanic Wants me to do this.
1:27:36
So I'm gonna do it like why wouldn't I the mechanic wants
1:27:39
you to do huh did you have a good example?
1:27:40
I gave my players a while ago like I think I shared it with
1:27:44
you guys to the dungeon Coast the the bonus level up perks.
1:27:50
Like they're like these little things.
1:27:51
Every time player can level up or every once in a while the
1:27:54
players they get like like many Feats.
1:27:56
If you want saying Pathfinder And I gave one to The Bard that
1:28:00
basically allows them as a full action, he can bikes and
1:28:04
inspiration, give them to two players.
1:28:07
So for a while, he was using that and only using his
1:28:10
inspiration for that mechanic and he's like, well it's the
1:28:13
most optimal it's like the best way I can give inspiration to
1:28:16
people but then I don't really get to do much.
1:28:19
And then all my, you know, all my Inspirations gone and I'm
1:28:23
playing a sword bar and I need my inspiration for that.
1:28:25
And so I was like, you know, like the whole Our group was
1:28:29
like, man just you know you don't have to do that, use your
1:28:33
inspiration, the way you want to, if you feel like in the
1:28:35
situation you want to do the thing where you give it to two
1:28:38
people, at the same time, do it if you want to use your sword,
1:28:41
Bard flourishes. Do that like no one, you know,
1:28:45
no one's forcing you to do that its tail.
1:28:48
And so it finally kind of like with them I think this is a good
1:28:53
like is a really good like macaque do which is why he was
1:28:57
like just opting into doing that over his own sub classroom.
1:29:05
Yeah, I kind of got it end up a little bit.
1:29:13
Yeah. Yeah.
1:29:14
Although I sort of I mostly was doing it by choice but it did
1:29:17
kind of yeah. Okay.
1:29:24
All right. Yeah.
1:29:26
I I do think that is a good example.
1:29:29
Matt of players just kind of thinking that they should play a
1:29:32
specific way. You're getting good at pitching.
1:29:36
Yeah, I do think it's kind a like at least like especially
1:29:40
with like support characters or classes, especially like barred
1:29:45
when you're not playing, you know, it's very specific type of
1:29:48
part you end up being like, okay, so I'm like yours as
1:29:51
support I cast. Yeah.
1:29:53
Through spells and give inspiration.
1:29:54
That's my job or like, if you play a cleric and everyone's
1:29:57
like, where's my healing word and it's like, bro, I'm a war
1:29:59
Clan. Yeah, fuck you.
1:30:01
Yeah, exactly exactly. Like, you know, you players have
1:30:05
specific, expectations, and video games, some kind.
1:30:08
And sometimes kind of make this aha.
1:30:10
Yeah, a problem because you know, you look at a video game
1:30:15
you know like oh this is support this is this healing.
1:30:18
This is DPS blah blah blah blah and you end up, putting yourself
1:30:22
in that mentality, even when you're playing.
1:30:23
In tabletop. Now to be fair.
1:30:25
Sometimes when you, you know, you mix, you mix those things
1:30:30
together, you kind of get a character that doesn't function
1:30:32
very well hi, but that depends on the system or so than
1:30:36
anything else. You know, pigeon holing yourself
1:30:39
in those specific thing. All right, all right.
1:30:44
All right. I feel like good satisfactory
1:30:47
answers that question. All right, so this is my last
1:30:49
question. I'll show.
1:30:52
It's not a big one. Not a rough on to your coffee.
1:30:56
I know that that, that's not a question.
1:31:00
I will ever ask on the podcast. What do you think the best
1:31:04
rewards are like? Would you rather get something
1:31:08
with like a little mechanical benefit?
1:31:09
Matt, I swear to God. If you say that you'll be happy,
1:31:11
I will be. I'm just here, man.
1:31:14
I will. I will.
1:31:17
I will throw me out of the wilderness.
1:31:27
Throw, you know, it can, it can be experienced.
1:31:29
It could be some kind of like mechanical benefit like it
1:31:32
inspiration or, you know, your spell has plus 2 or you get an
1:31:39
extra die for this role depending on the game or, you
1:31:42
know, oh, you know, this character likes you more
1:31:45
whatever doesn't matter. Doesn't matter what the reward
1:31:47
is just tell me what is your preferred reward for doing
1:31:51
something nice? Cool.
1:31:54
Etc. Are we talking in the roleplay
1:31:56
realm, specifically their role play role specific?
1:32:02
I don't know. I it's combat usually Punchy
1:32:05
Punchy reward is experience item.
1:32:08
Yeah, I think I just like, I just is that true?
1:32:19
I know for me, it's me again. Like I feel bad but it is the
1:32:22
RP, the character go like the moment like that's the reward
1:32:26
and then usually players, who do that?
1:32:29
They'll get some sort of thing. Like You know a magic item or a
1:32:33
feed or a bun or some shit. Yeah.
1:32:37
I feel bad because I actually do just like I'm in it for the
1:32:40
narrative. I'm in it for like 30 moment
1:32:42
with my character. And, you know, I might devil
1:32:46
worshipping warlock sacrificed, you know, sacrifice their best
1:32:49
friend to get a, you know, you know, get more devil Powers.
1:32:53
I'm sure, uh, actually, I I did the fan of thing.
1:32:57
I threw my daughter off the cliff, so I can gain internal
1:32:59
piloting, so I can gain power. I could resurrect you or I could
1:33:06
get out. Yes, yes.
1:33:09
H 0i, you know, from A particularly from the roleplay
1:33:15
side of things. Yeah, I think. for big roleplay
1:33:21
moments, like sort of, you know, Barge struts up to the fucking
1:33:28
king's court and like makes like a dope ass speech and convinces,
1:33:33
the King to fucking retract, his armies that were marching on the
1:33:37
city or whatever, you know like for big role play shit like
1:33:39
that. I think I want fictional story
1:33:43
rewards. I don't, I don't necessarily
1:33:47
want any kind of specific mechanical benefit for like a
1:33:50
big narrative Bush. If we're talking just like, If
1:33:58
we're talking from you know, let's say you just rolled just
1:34:03
rolled real good and so you know your role real good Got You High
1:34:07
number then like mechanical thing, mechanical reward,
1:34:11
fictional thing fictional is generally how I want to do it.
1:34:15
So yeah like if we're just talking like big cool crazy like
1:34:18
you know, the Warlock sold his soul to the devil type shit to
1:34:21
like get a sister back you know. I don't really need that to be
1:34:23
represented mechanic. Okay, like you'd like a clear
1:34:29
separation between to do for me? Yeah, I think there should be a
1:34:33
clear separation, which is, I think the yeah, which kind of
1:34:35
goes back to the me, not liking the DM, handing you a cookie,
1:34:38
right? Because that is very much not a
1:34:41
separation. That's like, did a roleplay
1:34:43
thing like did a fictional thing?
1:34:45
Here's a mechanical reward. Like the whole the Mandingo
1:34:49
fighting the guy that killed his dad.
1:34:52
Like I completely forgot about the sword.
1:34:55
Yeah, until he attacked me with it.
1:34:57
I was like, oh yeah. He has my dad's sword.
1:35:00
Fuck yeah. Like the magic item is Doctor of
1:35:03
I was just doing the Revenge thing.
1:35:05
I just wasn't really the important thing in that
1:35:08
scenario. No, yeah.
1:35:11
If it's so cool, I mean, hey, hey hey, nobody's going to
1:35:16
complain about magic item, you know what I'm saying about
1:35:18
nothing? No, no.
1:35:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You look up grasp on your,
1:35:27
you're not, you know, I'm actually not holding them.
1:35:32
All right. Now.
1:35:33
Thank you very much. No bailiffs smack his nuts.
1:35:40
All right, I think that was good.
1:35:42
I think that was a well discussed homemade peanut butter
1:35:48
and jelly. That's right now.
1:35:51
It's really hard to fuck it up. You do goddamn just like slap
1:35:56
the fucking jelly on my cheese, butter and jelly, and peanut
1:36:01
butter. It's like, you know that little
1:36:13
bit of jelly I should like is always left on the knife.
1:36:16
Basically tried spreading that around on the bread and you just
1:36:19
put it on that's enough. He just slaps Butte butter and
1:36:22
some jelly on a plate and someone's like, what are you
1:36:24
doing? Making a few more jelly
1:36:26
sandwich. Oh, I you forgot the bread.
1:36:28
I'll fuck a new mix it up to the spoon.
1:36:40
They try to smash through this place, clean it up with a piece
1:36:43
of bread and the bridge just keeps breaking because the
1:36:46
peanut butter is not like go, oh, God all this.
1:36:49
All right, peanut butter and jelly soup.
1:36:51
You got peanut, buttery pear, jelly and thank you for
1:36:57
listening to our curse. Peanut butter and jelly.
1:37:00
Well, how do you enjoy your peanut butter and jelly
1:37:02
sandwich? Yeah, however you are you don't
1:37:06
want to know. Are you like a jelly peanut
1:37:08
butter bread bread? Kind of got
1:37:23
jelly without bread. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna
1:37:26
ignore you know if you like the chaos you heard you know give a
1:37:33
give a follower, subscribe on your podcast platform choice, if
1:37:37
you would like to keep up to date with us, please.
1:37:39
Is hit the follow on the tractors.
1:37:42
Twitter's the angry bird, the angry Bluebird app and leave a
1:37:47
comment if you have any strong opinions.
1:37:49
Also if you're on Spotify you can leave a comment now.
1:37:51
So ahead. How was your?
1:37:54
Thank you, do that? It's a new thing.
1:37:55
It's very recent. I know it's been like the last
1:37:58
few weeks, there's something around.
1:38:00
Yeah, I'm just that every time I hear of I'm like, what?
1:38:13
And now in response, I attack your creature with vampire,
1:38:15
Nighthawk to gain a level of Mylanta War elf to life.
1:38:20
I mad. Wish you knew how to play Magic.
1:38:22
Anyways,