Latest / Murder Files Unsealed / Lucy Letby - The Key Questions Regarding Nurse Serial Killer

Transcript

Lucy Letby - The Key Questions Regarding Nurse Serial Killer · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ever get that feeling, you know, after you finish a
• 0:02
  True Crown documentary, like you're supposed to have answers, but
• 0:05
  really you just have more questions.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, that's the good stuff keeps you thinking, right, that's.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: What we're tackling today with Alicia Leppie case. Yeah, with
• 0:13
  that verdict, but it's.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Just Keith this unease about it, you know, doesn't quite
• 0:16
  sit right.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Exactly, and a bunch of you asked for a deep
• 0:19
  dive on this one specifically what the Independent brought up.
• 0:21
  So here we are.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Let's do it. It's fascinating really because we're not just talking
• 0:25
  about guilty or not guilty. It's the stuff underneath that's
• 0:29
  got everyone talking totally.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: So we're talking Britain's most prolific child serial killer convicted
• 0:37
  but still claiming innocence and there's a new appeal coming,
• 0:41
  Like where do we even start?
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Well, to get the doubts, got to do a quick recap, right.
• 0:46
  Let be was a nurse Countess of Chester Hospital and
• 0:49
  she was accused of harming, like really badly harming the
• 0:52
  babies in her care.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: And not just a few, this was this.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Was twenty two counts. Murder. Didn't murder, horrific and honestly unusual.
• 1:03
  You don't see this.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Every day, No, not at all. I mean we're talking
• 1:06
  of brand new babies, totally helpless, relying on these caregivers.
• 1:10
  It's just disturbing on a whole other.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Level, it really is, and it makes getting into the
• 1:14
  bottom of it, the truth of it, even more important.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, Now we should say up front the independent they're
• 1:20
  not saying she has innocent, but they point out these
• 1:23
  things that just don't add up for some people.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like those confession notes they found at her place, chilling.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Right, I killed them on purpose? Like case closed?
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, that's what's weird. See her defense, they're saying
• 1:34
  those notes it was coping, not confessing coping. Yeah, Like
• 1:37
  she was under so much stress being investigated all that.
• 1:39
  They're saying, her doctor, even the supervisors, maybe they suggested
• 1:42
  it write down her feelings. You know. So she's blaming herself,
• 1:46
  but not for the crimes, for the whole situation at
• 1:49
  least that's their story.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Okay, so context is everything. Mm, but this isn't just
• 1:54
  about some notes, is it? They had hard data? Right, Like,
• 1:57
  wasn't let be working when it's statistic like crazy number
• 2:01
  of these bad things happened.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: It's right. The prosecution they made a big deal about that,
• 2:04
  even had a whole chart showed all her shifts lined
• 2:07
  up with when the babies got sick or died. Really
• 2:10
  made you think.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: But then did they leave stuff out that chart?
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: That's the thing. Nine other deaths, same time period, none
• 2:17
  on the chart.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Hold on, Hold on, why even do that if you're
• 2:20
  showing the data show all of it, right, seems fishy.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Well, there are a few ways to look at it.
• 2:25
  Could be they were trying to make their side look
• 2:28
  better only showing what helped them or those other deaths.
• 2:33
  Maybe they were genuinely different, like the babies were already
• 2:36
  really sick. It happens in neonatal units, right, sadly hard
• 2:40
  to tell without more info.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: But you'd think they'd included anyway, just so people know, right,
• 2:43
  transparency and all that. Like if I'm flipping a coin
• 2:46
  and only tell you.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: About the heads exactly, it looks rigged right totally.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: So we've got weird notes, possibly messed up data. What else?
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: This is where child k comes in?
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: Oh right, this one fell big in the trial, right,
• 2:58
  Like this is what made people really suspicious.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: You got it This consultant, doctor Robb Jaram, he'd been
• 3:05
  getting more and more worried about all these babies, right,
• 3:08
  and then he testifies that he walked in and let
• 3:11
  Bees alone with child K, who's breathing tube had come out.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: So they're making it seem like she's caught red handed
• 3:16
  basically pretty much.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: But here's the kicker in the retrial. They use doorswipe
• 3:21
  data to figure out who was where and when. Turns
• 3:25
  out another nurse might have been there too, totally changes things.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Whoa for real? What did this doctor say about that
• 3:31
  getting it all wrong like that?
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: He actually said he was sorry he didn't report it
• 3:35
  right away. He said he was unsure even in denial,
• 3:37
  you know, like could a coworker really be doing this?
• 3:40
  It's a lot of pressure, even for a doctor.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Makes you think, right, even experience people they hesitate when
• 3:46
  it's something this awful. So we've got weird statistics if
• 3:50
  the eyewitness stuff pressure in the hospital, But what about
• 3:54
  the medical evidence itself?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: All?
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Now, this is where it gets really interesting and complicated, Right,
• 4:00
  This is where it gets really interesting and complicated. This
• 4:03
  whole thing kind of hinges on how they say, let
• 4:05
  be hurt these babies, right, the prosecution they were really
• 4:08
  pushing this air embolism thing.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not exactly a walk in the park to think about.
• 4:13
  But we're going deep. So lay it on me. What's
• 4:15
  an air embolism and why is it a big deal here?
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: So imagine an air bubble, right, but it gets into
• 4:20
  the bloodstream, blocks things up, super dangerous for anyone, but
• 4:24
  for a tiny baby, often fatal. That was their argument
• 4:28
  that let Be was injecting.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: Air, okay, And they had someone backing this up, an expert,
• 4:33
  I mean.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, their expert witness totally convinced, said this was
• 4:37
  the method, air injections all that bay ut. And this
• 4:40
  is where the Independent gets juicy. They talked to seven
• 4:44
  other experts, all top neonatologists, and these guys were like, uh,
• 4:48
  not so fast, right, meaning they didn't buy it, or
• 4:52
  at least not entirely. Said it's way more complex than
• 4:55
  the prosecution made it seem, and that air embolisms the
• 4:58
  way let Be supposedly did it, they wouldn't necessarily be fatal.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: So now we're in this medical mystery zone. It's not
• 5:04
  just two sides disagreeing about the facts. It's about how
• 5:06
  the science itself applies.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: You know, exactly, and it cuts right to the core.
• 5:11
  Did let Be actually dno what they say? Or is
• 5:14
  the whole mechanism wrong. It's not like arguing about pizza
• 5:17
  toppings here. It's life and death stuff.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Huge and if there's this much doubt about the air
• 5:22
  embolism thing, that kind of throws the whole case into questions.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: Right, it's a big deal. Now. To be clear, we're
• 5:27
  not playing judge and jury on the deep dive. That's
• 5:29
  not our job. But this uncertainty, this doubt about the how,
• 5:33
  it's clearly a big reason why let Bee's appealing.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Rightfully, So I'd say it's like we're building this puzzle,
• 5:39
  but some pieces just don't fit. And speaking of things
• 5:42
  not fitting, what about the hospital? If there were red
• 5:45
  flags about Leppie, shouldn't someone have stepped in sooner?
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: That's the million dollar question, and it's what this public
• 5:52
  inquiry is going to try to figure out, not just
• 5:54
  what happened with Leppie, but how the whole system works
• 5:57
  or doesn't. The National Health Service specifically these fatal units,
• 6:00
  they're all under the microscope now.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: So this one case, it could change things on a
• 6:05
  much bigger scale. It's not just about let Be anymore.
• 6:08
  It's about protecting babies everywhere. Man. It's just heavy.
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: Stuff, absolutely, and it shows how these investigations they need
• 6:15
  to look beyond just one person. It's easy to focus
• 6:18
  on the accused, but the whole context matters, the system
• 6:22
  they work within, all of it.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got iffy medical evidence, questions about the
• 6:27
  hospital's response. It just this overall sense of uneasiness, you know.
• 6:33
  So what now, what happens next with this whole let
• 6:35
  Be situation?
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Well, like you said earlier, let Bee still saying she
• 6:39
  didn't do it, and her new lawyers, they're not messing around.
• 6:42
  They're going for this appeal, taking it to the Criminal
• 6:44
  Cases Review Commission, which.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Is like the big leagues for appeals, right exactly.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: They think there were mistakes in the first trial and
• 6:51
  they're going to try to prove it.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: And meanwhile there's that public inquiry going on too. It's
• 6:55
  going to be huge trying to unravel whole thing, who
• 6:58
  knew what.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: And when, massive undertaking, and even with all that, the
• 7:02
  appeals the inquiries, some questions might never get answered. But
• 7:06
  that's kind of the heart of the deep dive isn't it.
• 7:09
  We don't always get neat and tidy answers. Sometimes it's
• 7:12
  about sitting with the uncomfortable truth that even in cases
• 7:15
  that seem clear cut, doubt can still linger.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Makes you think about the whole justice system, doesn't it.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: I mean it's a lot to ask of a jury
• 7:23
  to sift through all these expert opinions, evidence that doesn't
• 7:26
  quite line up, and then the sheer weight of these accusations. Yeah,
• 7:29
  how do you ever really know for sure?
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: It's the question, isn't it? People have been wrestling with
• 7:33
  that for centuries. What is reasonable doubt? Really? If we
• 7:36
  accept that some of the evidence against Leppe is debatable
• 7:38
  up for interpretation, how much doubt is enough to overturn
• 7:43
  a guilty verdict?
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Heavy stuff? And it's not just about let Bee anymore,
• 7:47
  is it. It's a question we should all be asking
• 7:49
  in our own lives when we hear a story, see
• 7:52
  the news, even just talking to a friend. How much
• 7:56
  weight do we give to what we're told? And are
• 7:58
  we willing to question it, really dig in when new
• 8:01
  stuff comes up.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: That's the beauty of thinking for yourself, isn't it. It's
• 8:05
  a muscle we all got to use or we lose it.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Rael said, because truth justice, it's not about arriving at
• 8:11
  a destination. It's the journey, the constant seeking that matters.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: It really is. We can't just go through life on
• 8:17
  auto pilot. Can We got to think for ourselves in
• 8:20
  this case, man, it really.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Crusy for a loop big time, because we're not just
• 8:24
  theorizing here are we? There are real people caught in
• 8:27
  the middle of this whole thing, the families who lost
• 8:29
  their babies, the doctors and nurses at the hospital, even
• 8:32
  let be herself. It's easy to forget that.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's heavy stuff, and it reminds you that the
• 8:38
  justice system, for all its rules and procedures, it's still
• 8:42
  ultimately dealing with people's lives and the consequences. They're real, they.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Last, absolutely and for those families, I mean the appeal,
• 8:50
  the inquiry, those could bring some answers maybe, but it
• 8:53
  also means reliving everything right, opening old wounds.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: It's a double edged sword. They want answers, of course,
• 8:59
  but at what CA It's a tough spot to be, in.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: No doubt, to carry that weight, the wondering, the what ifs.
• 9:06
  It really shows you the limits of what the justice
• 9:08
  system can do, doesn't it. Even if it works, if
• 9:10
  there's a verdict and all that, there's still this human
• 9:12
  need for closure, for peace of mind that it can't
• 9:15
  always provide.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: You said it. We want these clean resolutions, these definitive answers,
• 9:20
  but real life is messy. There's always that void, the uncertainty.
• 9:23
  It's part of the deal.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: And maybe that's what's got us all hooked on this
• 9:27
  deep dive. Huh. Yeah, we started with a case a verdict,
• 9:30
  but we've gone way beyond that. Now we're talking about
• 9:33
  the nature of certainty itself, how evidence can be so slippery,
• 9:36
  and the sheer impact of it all on real people.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Hit the nail on the head, and we can't forget
• 9:41
  what we talked about earlier, thinking, critically, questioning what we hear,
• 9:45
  looking at things from different angles. That's all crucial.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: So as we wrap up this deep dive into the
• 9:50
  lucy Lepie case, what's the one big thing you hope
• 9:54
  our listeners take away from all of this.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Honestly, don't be afraid of uncertainty. We're so conditioned to
• 9:59
  one easy answers, but the world's not like that. Being
• 10:03
  okay with the unknown being willing to sit with those
• 10:05
  uncomfortable questions. That's what makes us grow as individuals and
• 10:10
  as a society.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Beautifully said, maybe it's not about finding all the answers,
• 10:14
  but knowing what to ask in the first place, and
• 10:17
  having the guts to keep asking even when it's tough.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Exactly who knows. Maybe this deep dive it's got our
• 10:23
  listeners asking those tough questions too. That's what we hope anyway.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: That's what it's all about, because just like seeking justice,
• 10:30
  seeking knowledge is a journey, not a fish line. We're
• 10:34
  all in this together, figuring it out as we go.
• 10:36
  Thanks for being here for another deep dive. Everyone,