Latest / Infidels / Jew Hatred Is God Hatred: The Metaphysical Roots of Antisemitism | David Patterson
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- Richard Landes: My guest today is one of the most distinguished Holocaust scholars in the United States. David Patterson holds the Hillel A. Feinberg Distinguished Chair in Holocaust Studies at the Ackerman Center of the University of Texas at Dallas, where he continues to teach and write. He serves on the executive board of ISCAP, the Institute for the Study of Global antisemitism and Policy, and As a commissioner for the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission, he's the author of some forty-five books, and among them the most recent, the one that speaks directly to what we're exploring today: antisemitism and its metaphysical origins, twenty fifteen. Professor Patterson is one of the very few chaired Holocaust scholars who's traced rigorously and unflinchingly The continuity between Nazi antisemitism and the antisemitism and antizionism of contemporary jihad, not as a slogan, but as an intellectual and historical lineage. That continuity, the pattern that runs from one century's hatred to the next, from one culture's hatred to the next, is exactly what I want to talk about with him. David, it's an honor to have you. Welcome. David Patterson: Thank you. Thank you so much, Richard. yes, the it's antisemitism and its metaphysical origins. I think anti Semitism is not reducible to prejudice or bigotry or racism, or xenophobia, th in Nazi Germany. There was nothing Xeno about the Jews. They were very German. in their lifestyle for the most part. so what is it? And I my my approach is to draw upon the the the thinking that shapes Jewish tradition, Judaism, precisely the thinking that the anti Semites would obliterate, the thinking based based in Torah, proceeding from Torah. And I think Jew hatred has a lot to do with the very first temptation that comes to us, namely you will be like God. And as long Richard Landes: what the serpent says to Adam. David Patterson: the serpent tempts, you know, Eve and with the Richard Landes: Eve, right? David Patterson: you know, with the promise you will be like God. What's so tempting about being God? Of course it's not the God who is speaking Quick to forgive, slow to anger, long suffering, long, you know, loving, full of chesed, loving kindness. It's the God who gets his way, the God who is in control, all powerful, who determines good and evil, as as in Richard Landes: And who lives forever. David Patterson: who lives forever, who yes, who has no responsibility therefore, right? That's the god that the anti Semite would be. I mean to totalitarian thinking is invariably anti Semitic. It has to be. Totalian totalitarian thinking cannot tolerate challenge and disputation questioning machloket. It can be The c the Jews encourage the questioning. God, the L of God is in the She El La. God is in the question, in the challenge. And the the anti-Semite is trying to have the last word, whereas the Jews are generating another word, the next response, the next why. So God God it's and it's God who asks us, God who asks the first. human, where are you? And and then th the firstborn, where's your brother and what have you done? The anti Semite has no brother and doesn't want to have to answer for what he, she has done, certainly and doesn't want to have to answer to the one who asks. Namely, Hashem. this this is also basically about how we understand the holiness of the other human being. What's the basis for that? is it some n natural accident, race, class, you know, ontological accident, race, class, gender? Is that the first principle for determining the the the value, the dearness of a human being? antisemitism is dividing people from people, disconnecting. Judaism connects person to person. We have in in our teaching and tradition, we are taught that the the the basis for the holiness of the human is that every soul, every human being is a child of God. Emanation from the soul emanates from the Creator. We're all each of us is connected to the other through our connection to God. And a human being is a ben Adam, child of Adam. Each of us are is a child of the first human being, so to say. the the the sages teach that God begins with one and not two, so that no one can say my side of the family's better than your side of the family. There's only one side, and we are family, whether we like it or not. With all the ethical demands. It's it's not it's and the first the question put to Cain is not where's the that other guy? It's where is your brother? The one who's who who shares an origin with you, the one who shares your blood. You know, it's in in Texas where I live, we say, you know, we're we're all blood, we're blood relatives. antisemitism undermines that premise in a flight from this responsibility is to to have to answer what have you done? and as long as there's a Jew in the room, the Jew is saying, Hey, God is questioning us. now this happens in the in the modern period it happens over the centuries. It's the original temptation, whether you're Pharaoh or Haman Or Tacitus, or you know, Antiochus, you know. Richard Landes: Or Hitler. David Patterson: Or Hitler or Khalid Mashal. they it it's so it's it's not about racism. The jihadists are not driven by racism. That's not their motivating drive. As for the Nazis, the Nazis were not anti Semites because they were racist, they were racist because they were anti Semites. In other words, they have to establish what I the anti-Judaic position regarding holiness of human. We're all connected. That has to that thinking has to be eliminated in order to arrive at a racist outlook. Richard Landes: All right. David Patterson: So I'm in sort in in the Torah, in the in the Bible, there there is no word that that that is the equivalent of what we call race today. it doesn't I mean it doesn't there's no equivalent. Richard Landes: Well there are the three sons of Noah. David Patterson: But they're all sons of Noah. They're they're brothers. Richard Landes: Right, but they David Patterson: They're brothers. Right? E and so we have strikingly in the Torah we have thirty six times the commandment to care for, love, be kind to the stranger. This is this is really in many ways counterintuitive. I can love I don't you know, maybe I can love my neighbor, I hang out with my neighbor, we sit in the sukkah together. But I mean the stranger you know Yes, I'd rather not. So Richard Landes: Yes right, especially in societies which some sociologists argue is the sort of natural form that are suspicious of all outsiders and view anybody who's not David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: part of the clan or the tribe as enemies. David Patterson: Yes. And anti Semitism breeds and feeds on that suspicion. You know, when Primo Levy comments on this regarding the stranger, he says, you know, most of us have a have a kind of suspicion of the stranger, even a hostility. He said, But when this becomes the premise of an ideology, at the end of the syllog at the end of that syllogism is, as he puts it, is the lager. the camp. The Auschwitz is a logical outcome of the National Socialist premise. It's not in i i given the premise, it's not quote, insane. That's the horror. So and it comes not accidentally, I think in the modern period. The modern period, I say by modern, I mean like since Descartes, you know, the father of modern philosophy, is I mean Richard Landes: So seventeenth century onward. David Patterson: Yeah, I mean the history of that thinking is a history of thinking God out of the picture. So that God becomes more and more irrelevant. I mean think of the Kantian claim that you know the the the person who was free is autonomous and self legislating. Now that's scary. Self legislating. Richard Landes: Yeah. I went through a phase like that. David Patterson: We all do. That's in the that's in the human soul, I think. That's in the it's every human who's that is tempted to be like God, to be this autonomous individual in control. I am the master of my faith, the captain of my soul, the master of my values, my my belief system. you know, like David Deutsch talks about the the the moral perversion and he's I I like what he says, and we can talk further about that shortly, but what makes it a perversion exactly? Why is one one man's morality another man's perversion? there's with the Nazis had no concept of an unjust law. Everything they did to the Jews was legal and legalized, right? In order to have some idea, some notion of an unjust law, there has to be in there a notion of a a law that transcends human legislation. and indeed, you know, in Jewish tradition, we we're taught each time the judges would hand down a decision, a sword was hanging over their head, right? They're trying to the the task of the Sanhedrin or the Baytin is to try to figure out what is God's will here. What is God's will? the Nazis are trying to figure out the will of the Fuhrer or you know the the Iranian jihadist, the will of the Ayatollah. You know, the Ayatollah Khomeini said to oppose the state is to oppose God. is the Islamic yeah yeah. Richard Landes: To oppose the Islamic State. David Patterson: Not e not exactly the same as Hegel, but kind of reminiscent of Hegel. The I mean the Hamas covenant is covenant of Allah. Hamas is Allah, Hiz Balah is the party of Allah. and this has this has this this metaphysical dimension comes to bear when redemption is at stake. it's not just i it what what happens with the jihadists is it's not just a matter of purifying the blood, the Aryan blood, as you know, but as in the case of Nazis, other racist forms. It's salvation of the soul. Hajjamin al-Husseini, who was a Nazi war criminal, worked closely with the Nazis and then with the Muslim Brotherhood, the mentor to Yasser Arafat, the you know, the inspir Richard Landes: On call. David Patterson: the unc Yeah, yeah. They were related. and you know, he's he's there right there with Saeed Kutab, the probably the most influential ideologue to come out of the Brotherhood. Hajmin would would in in radio broadcast, Nazi propaganda and Arabic would say whoever kills a Jew has a guaranteed place in paradise. He was he was saying this when he was Mufti of Jerusalem, British Mandate Palestine. Richard Landes: Apo appointed by the Jewish David Patterson: Her Herbert Samuel. Richard Landes: Herbert Samuel, right? In order to be even handed. David Patterson: Yes, God help us. Every time a Jew tries to be even handed, he gets backhanded. and it's it's another phenomenon, you know, what I call the good Jews. The Jewish Richard Landes: Right. All right, let's not go there. Let's get the the thesis of your book down. David Patterson: The thesis is Richard Landes: If I understand it, you're saying that basically it's egotism that finds David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: the Jewish approach, which is about reciprocity unbearable, and David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: the hatred of the Jews is actually a hatred of the god of the Jews who demands this kind of reciprocity and self control over one's egotism. David Patterson: Correct. Y you you understand perfectly. I couldn't have said it better. Richard Landes: Right. David Patterson: it's Jew hatred is God hatred. And the th the hatred of God. Richard Landes: Or it's the Jewish God hatred because certainly the Christians think they love God and the Muslims think they love God. David Patterson: Well, yes. but that's that's it. The the the the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Is i is always asking more. What more will you do? You have to love Bakol Meod Decha with all your more. the the account is never settled. In fact, the more good we do, the more is expected of us, more good we're expected to do. Richard Landes: Right. David Patterson: The more we respond, the more responsible we become. The account is not settled because we are responsible for something that is infinitely precious, the other, the child of God before us. The creed-based traditions like Christianity and Islam want to have matters settled. If you believe you're in. Whoever believes shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And I'm sure you've seen passages from the Quran about the believers and what happens to the non believers, you know, the fire. There's Richard Landes: Right. Right. David Patterson: nothing like that in Jewish thinking or Jewish teaching. Judaism is not mainly at least about belief or faith. It's about what have you done? Na ase vanishma, we will do it. Richard Landes: And then we'll figure we'll understand it. Yeah. David Patterson: And then we'll figure it out, and then we'll understand the the why. Which actually makes really good sense, right? When you when you're learning how Richard Landes: Only when you practice it. David Patterson: no, but when you're learning how to to do anything, you understand it a lot better when you're doing it. When you're swimming or you're driving, or you yeah. Richard Landes: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. David Patterson: So there there's that. Richard Landes: So let me let me just push back a little here. Take a figure like Francis of Assisi. David Patterson: Okay. Richard Landes: He seems to be somebody who was always pushing the limits, always asking David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: more of himself and his followers. He he also was one of the few Christians in the Middle Ages who wasn't antisemitic. David Patterson: yeah, look, it's If if I characterize Christianity as, you know, creed based religions as religions that want to guarantee salvation somehow, I don't mean Richard Landes: Right, creedal creedal eschatology, you're saved because of the denomination you belong to as opposed to moral David Patterson: Correct. Richard Landes: eschatology, which is you're judged on your behavior, and it doesn't matter which I mean the creeds are there to help you behave well, but they're not there to make you into heaven get you into heaven. That would be moral eschatology. Yeah. David Patterson: Correct. Yes. Yes. And it's you know, I don't want to it's it's where does the emphasis fall? I mean ju Jews value believing certain things. Anima I mean, right? But that's not the what's decisive. You don't have to be a follower of Judaism to be with God, to have a place, you know, in the upper realms. Richard Landes: Right. Right. David Patterson: You we have this the Jew unlike other traditions, we have this notion of the Hasid Umotam, right? The righteous among the nations. The the ones who even reject Judaism can still be among the righteous. This goes all the way back to Melchitzedek, right? The high the high priest, the king of Salem who came out and brought Abraham wine and bread. He's not a Hebrew. when Jonah goes to Nineveh, he doesn't go there to convert them to Judaism. So if a Christian or a Muslim in a the traditional sense goes to save the people of Nineveh, they go to to make them into Christians or Muslims. F and and you know, generally speak Richard Landes: So you're you're right. So you're contrasting I mean, one way to formulate this is that Judaism is the only monotheism with borders. Islam and Christianity David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: are imperialist religions. They believe that everybody should become them. David Patterson: Beautifully said, beautifully stated, wisely stated, Richard. The land with the land of the covenant. Richard Landes: And then it it it then Yes, and and then we get to the irony that in fact the anti Zionists today refuse to allow Israel to have borders. David Patterson: it's yeah. they've they've refused to have Israel, period. They want to erase Israel. But this this is also there's so many extraordinary, amazing things in the Torah, just as an ancient script text. Even g even just on that basis. where else do you see you know the the idea that that a certain land This land is yours, and no more. That's not Assyrian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Persian. It's you you take what you can take if you're these empires. There's a limit. Yesh Gavul, you know, there's a limit, there's a border. Richard Landes: Yeshua. David Patterson: There's a limiting principle. Kings have a limit on how many horses they can own. Richard Landes: Right. And wives. So actually David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: this gets back to your point about about the egotism, which is David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: that the people who hate the Jews and their God are the people who want no limits to the degree to which they can expand their influence, power, David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: control. David Patterson: Yes. Yes. I often tell my students that what the Nazis did was not unimaginable. It was everything imaginable. Because there is no limiting principle. There's no going too far. In the time of the Crusades, there could be, and there were Christians who said, maybe we're going too far here. You can be a Christian and s and object to the excess. You can remain a Christian. You can't remain a Nazi and say we're killing too many Jews or we're being too cruel. the same with Hamas. Richard Landes: Or we're conquering too much. David Patterson: Conquer too much. And Richard Landes: Yeah. David Patterson: say the the just the the horror of what happened on 10 seven, what I call the Simchat Torah massacre, was not In the the number the numbers are horrific, but it's not in the numbers. It's in the erasure of all limitations. I mean the the the mind numbing, butchery, brutality, rape, maiming, all while praying Allahu Akbar. Of course Ahmed Yasin with the founder of Hamas said you know killing Jews is an act of devotion. Right? It's it get it's it it gains you a place in paradise. That's the horror. the with with the Nazis, the extermination of the Jews was an unpleasant necessity for the purity of the folk. for the jihadist it's it's glorified it's it's the your take the the blood of a jew is your ticket to paradise and and sinwar wanted it to be videoed and broadcast Richard Landes: Right. Right. David Patterson: it's it wasn't Nachtun Nabel right night and fog Louis Riesen so Richard Landes: Right. So i i this reminds me of something that one of the early earliest people I read on jihad made the point that Nietzsche said God is dead, everything is permitted, and that Jihad says Allah wills it, everything is permitted. David Patterson: Very good, yes. Richard Landes: Yeah, yeah. So David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: okay, so so your argument is that and there's an ironic, deeply ironic twist to it, that those who want to kill the Jews actually want to kill the god of the Jews who puts a burden on them that they don't want to accept. And David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: the irony is that In a sense, the anti Semites are the ones who want to kill God, and they accuse the Jews of having killed God. David Patterson: Yes, yes. Yes. There there are many, many, many examples of projection projecting the evil within them onto the Jews. The Jews want to control the world. The the Richard Landes: Exactly. The whole protocol is a projection. David Patterson: the protocols, I mean the state it and the so called constitution of irr of the Islamic Republic of Iran it says our aim is to bring the world under the rule of Islam. blood libel. The current blood libel, the Gaza Genocide Blood Libel. Richard Landes: Mass starvation, blood libel. David Patterson: Yes. that that is to is as you know, it's not based on any evidence of anything. it isn't driven by, you know, outrage over something witnessed. It's driven by i the you know, the the incitement of hatred because i if the Jews are guilty of genocide then you any the anything done what what should be morally required with the Jews? They're apartheid, they're racist, they're genocide. What's the moral requirement here? Richard Landes: Wipe them out. David Patterson: Ex exactly. Richard Landes: Which is actually therefore b in reality a wish that they should be wiped out, because they're the ones who want to do that. David Patterson: Exactly. They're the Deicides The Deicides are the the ones who would exterminate the Jews from the river to the sea. so the the the blood libel is very powerful. It it always has been. The the soul is in the blood, blood is redeeming, blood sacrifice. Blood has all kinds of symbolic associations, right. Richard Landes: And Jews are forbidden to consume it. David Patterson: For because of its holiness, so to say. Richard Landes: Right. Right. 'Cause it is the soul. David Patterson: Yes. Jews are forbidden to spill blood except when absolutely necessary. It's a last resort. Richard Landes: Last resort. David Patterson: When when Israelite soldiers would go out to to fight a battle, the ones who came back had to bring a sin offering to the temple. Because it was a sin. Even when it's necessary. It's you remember what the the remark attributed to Golda Mair after the October war. We can forgive you for attacking us, even for killing our children, but we will never forgive you for making our children kill your children. How different. Richard Landes: Yes, and that's one of the things that I think very few people can outsiders, non Jews can wrap their minds around that that David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: It's worse to have our children be killers than be killed. David Patterson: Yes. That is that is hard to get your mind around. that you know, k killing is last resort. You know, it which I mean I'm sure you you've read in the Talmud your your Talmud Yuda study, that the that causing someone embarrassment When the blood Richard Landes: Let's see. David Patterson: rushes to their cheeks cheeks is compared to spilling blood. Right? It's that's how how precious, how important this is, the human being, the holiness of the human being, any human being. So what happens with anti Semites, antisemitism, anti-Zion, and now it's antizionism. It divides, it divides people into the damned and the redeemed. Whether they are Zionist, the damned, or antizionism, the redeemed. Anti Zionist are anti racist. You know, the Soviet U backed UN resolution thirty three seventy nine, nineteen seventy five, Zionism is racism. That the impact of that stays with us, certainly in academia, where I live, right? Richard Landes: Where I fled. David Patterson: Where you wisely fled. Richard Landes: I wouldn't say I fled, I stuck it out until retirement age, but I was only too happy to get out. David Patterson: Well, you n I mean, you know what I'm talking about. and well you've you've written Richard Landes: Yeah, I do. I do. I do. It you know. David Patterson: about it yourself. Richard Landes: Right. I mean one of the things about what attracted me to the university was the culture of dispute, was the fact that you would David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: put out ideas and have people push back. And it it wasn't an insult that people disagreed with you. And David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: now it's it's a culture of consensus. It's David Patterson: It's yeah, it's it's a culture and a cult. it has it it's it's it's indoctrination with a catechism. and so that you have, you know, students at graduation walking across the stage carrying Palestinian flags. You talk about virtue symbols. They know, Richard Landes: No knowledge of what it is. David Patterson: but their professors know. And their professors cultivate it. The students have may have an excuse. They're young and and by definition, uneducated. They don't know anything. What makes me nuts is that many of them, most of them, want to be good. Remember when you were a young, idealistic guy? You want to be good. You want to be part of something righteous. J you want to serve a cause of justice. You want to be a student for justice, right? In Palestine or wherever it might be. So they are easily seduced. But then the ones who seduce them are there are the the intellectuals. Antisemitism historically You know, going back to the church fathers and before, Democritus, the Greek philosophers, antisemitism comes from the intellectual elite. That's where it is articulated, propagated, justified, systematized. they ex they of course they exploit pe you know people on down the line. I mean Hitler said in Mein Kampf, propaganda should be aimed at the lowest twenty percent of the society intellectually. The most Richard Landes: Now it's aimed at the lowest fifty percent. David Patterson: yes. if you know if if the average IQ is one hundred, that means half of us have a two digit IQ. Richard Landes: Two digitors. David Patterson: So very disturbing. But it comes from the the intellectuals, the literate. The philosophers, ideologues, the the the religious leaders. there was y in among the war crimes trials after the Holocaust was the doctor's trial and the judges trial, really? If you've read if you perhaps know about Max Weinreich's volume, the not Hitler's Professors. Written in the late forties, I mean soon after the war, it's about the professoriate in Germany. Richard Landes: Right. David Patterson: At least half of whom were on were with the program. And none of whom, w with maybe one or two notable exceptions, none of whom voiced any objections. For various reasons, including being really afraid. Okay. But still, many people with MDs and PhDs and J Ds were active participants. In the extermination project, and you know, Hamas, Rantisi, those guys, Haniah, Ismail Haniyya, they they bragged about being the intellectual elite in the Muslim world. And indeed, many of them have doctorates, right? Engineers. Richard Landes: Okay, so this brings up one issue that may be a challenge to your thesis, and that is that The fact that it's intellectuals who don't like Jews does suggest that there is a kind of envy involved. That that that the intellectual prowess of the Jews, the fact that once the Jews joined the modern world, as you said, you know, they were completely assimilated. They were not strangers within Germany. They were too good, you David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: know. Einstein, Freud, Durkheim, Marx, they're all basically founders of fields of of study. Boaz David Patterson: Sure. Sure. Richard Landes: and anthropology. So that but you but your argument that it is that it it's not envy. David Patterson: No, and well you don't forget Freud. Richard Landes: Right. Sorry, Freud. David Patterson: And it's a field of the penetrating the soul, the psyche, right? Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. David Patterson: the Jews it's when the Jews were first given the opportunity to go to the university, which was not that long ago. Richard Landes: One hundred years. David Patterson: They did really well very quickly. The Jews a have a history of studying. We d we are required from the time of Moses when we were required to to write a Torah scroll, we were required to study every day. Richard Landes: And to dispute every day. David Patterson: And to and to yeah, iron iron sharpens iron, right? We we clash with one another. so we have centuries of of traditions of studying and learning and of course when given the opportunity, Jews did really well. I think that's partly why, you know. so th Richard Landes: Alright, so David Patterson: they they may be envied their intellect. Jeez they're so so I wish I was that smart or something like this. but the they're n I don't think envy explains the hatred. Richard Landes: I don't know, envy can be very a powerful motivator for hatred. You know, destructive envy. Well look at David Patterson: Okay, but do you envy do you envy do we does Richard Landes: look at Cain and Abel. David Patterson: well, that that is a good example. Abel was envied for his relation to God and not for his intelligence, which is an even Richard Landes: But it was hatred. David Patterson: can be an even more serious envy, I would say, on the part of Cain. Richard Landes: Could be, that would that's your thesis, right? David Patterson: But what what what makes the Jewish people, the Jewish people, the covenantal people, is not their intellect, it's their responsibility, the responsibility to be a lighten to the nations. Richard Landes: So the intellect is a side effect of the kinds of commitments involved, which include right. Okay, so David Patterson: Exactly. The intellect is is cultivated. It's a study it's a culture of learning for the sake of meeting a higher responsibility, not just for Jews, but for for the nations, to say the Jews are chosen to say to humanity, every human is chosen for for an infinite responsibility. It's a dangerous Richard Landes: That is a dip that is a demanding. David Patterson: Talk. It's it's it's overwhelming. No Richard Landes: But i isn't that isn't that a form of conversion? David Patterson: Well yeah. Richard Landes: I mean, isn't it, you know, you're saying to everybody in the world, look, you have a an impossible standard to live up to. The future is always gonna ask more of you. I can see being slightly resentful. David Patterson: No, but it's and therefore your life has meaning. You you have a mission, you have a purpose. You you you are indispensable to all of creation. Every soul has an impact on all of creation. Whenever when a soul enters this realm or leaves this realm, creation is transformed. that's what it that's what the holiness of the soul means. Holiness is the is the insertion into this realm of something from beyond this realm. it's it's it it's that's what revelation is. Revelation isn't more information. Richard Landes: Yeah. David Patterson: Revelation is revelation of what there is to love, why we live, what's placed in our care. and it comes, you know, in with the the the sounding of the shofar of Mount Sinai, but it also comes in, you know, in the call name of Manta Ka, and the the thin what I call the thin voice of silence all around us. Richard Landes: Okay, so l let me ask you, because one aspect of your argument is that the normal things that we look to to explain antisemitism, xenophobia, prejudice, racism, various forms of discrimination don't work because in fact they're epiphenomena of something that's far more fundamental. David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: And in a sense, that's also David Deutsch's argument that David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: that so but his argument is quite different from yours, and I'm wondering if you see points of contact between them. He's arguing that and he doesn't explain it, you at least explain why people take the attitudes they do. He has an argument that he doesn't even try to explain, but that he feels that he's observed, which is that people feel compelled, even people who like Jews and get along with Jews and would never avail themselves of what they're doing, they feel a compulsion to legitimate hurting Jews. David Patterson: Yes. I actually I like his the piece that he wrote. as you said, there w we there're some points of contact. He sees anti Semitism in in metaphysical terms and not in ontological or contingencies out there. Richard Landes: Right. Right. David Patterson: he he he speaks of you know what he uses phrases like a a moral perversion, but he he doesn't explain What makes it a perversion? In other words, as I I kind of touched on this earlier, that the there's must be some higher moral truth that gets perverted. Richard Landes: Right. I think the way he argues it is in everything else they have a moral compass, and when it comes to Jews, the compass just starts spinning wildly. And so they accept David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: a whole bunch of stuff about the Jews that they wouldn't accept about anybody or anything else. David Patterson: Well, I think th that he the implication is, although he doesn't say explicitly state this, the implication that's underlying his approach, namely that you know, f first the Jews are hated and then it's manifests itself in various ways, is that i it the premise is not that all Jews are evil, but all evil is Jewish. and just think about you know, the going evil of the day. It's always Israel always gets tagged with whatever the the fashionable evil might be. It's Richard Landes: So if it's Christian culture, it's killing God. If it's David Patterson: Exactly. Richard Landes: scientific culture, it's being part of an inferior or diabolic race. Right. And if it's David Patterson: Diabolic. Richard Landes: postmodern culture, it's being a colonialist. When Jews are the David Patterson: That's Richard Landes: least imperial people on the planet. David Patterson: Yes, and that I mean I mean you y as as always, Richard, you you get it. it's colonialist, apartheid, racist, it's it's i all of which justifies the elimination of the Jews and and of the Jewish state. The Jewish state is not hated for any policy or or or action they take. They're hated it's hated because it's Jewish. You remember the statement by Salafis Sheikh, his name is Muhammad Hussein Yaqub. He said, If if the if the Jews left Palestine, would we stop hating them? He said, Of course not. We don't hate we would hate them if they didn't occupy anything. Our our struggle with the Jews, he says, is eternal until there's not a Jew left on earth. All evil is Jewish. The redemption of humanity requires the elimination of the Jews, and this this gets referred to in the PLO Charter, the enemy of all humanity, Ayatollahs and y etcetera. Richard Landes: Right, that's that's the purpose of the blood libel is to say Jews are enemies of humanity. David Patterson: Yes. And so they are demonized. And once demonized, whether in in in Christian terms or in you know communist ideological terms, capitalist, calling somebody a capitalist in some circles is demonizing. calling somebody a republican in some circles is demonizing. Richard Landes: These days, yes. David Patterson: But once they're demonized, they Richard Landes: We we the one thing we haven't been accused of yet is being being at the origin of woke. David Patterson: Ha ha Well, stick around. Richard Landes: Yeah. Right. David Patterson: But the once demonized, we we are dehumanized. And once dehumanized, we are de-victimized. We cannot be victims. So you see this this discourse after tense. Richard Landes: interesting. And that's why we don't register on the victim scale. David Patterson: Yes, yes. So the vic pe the Jews who were butchered on ten seven are not victims. Either it wasn't as bad or it didn't happen, or they had it common to them. Richard Landes: So wait a minute, in some senses this is parallel to the subject of our infidel awareness month, which is that for Muslims there is no such thing as an incident innocent infidel. David Patterson: Correct. Correct. And this goes to that's kind that's a metaphysical principle. It's a first principle. It's a first principle, and it and and understanding that principle is the key to redemption, the key to an entry into paradise by purifying the world of this evil. and I think what what David Deutsch has written, I mean is compatible with that, although he doesn't really go go there. But he could easily go there. I mean he wouldn't he wouldn't have to change much. Richard Landes: So, in other words, in some senses, you're offering an explanation for the pattern. He just describes the pattern, and you're saying David Patterson: He yeah, he says Richard Landes: what drives the pattern is this combination of, on the one hand, a desire to do what you want to do and a resentment of a people who represent and who live the commands of a God who says, No, there are limits to what you can do. David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: And there are yeah. David Patterson: Yes, he does say it's a mystery or y you know, it can't be explained. Richard Landes: Yeah. David Patterson: But I don't know that I i it it can be, I think, if not explained, elaborated on. I mean it can be Richard Landes: Right. David Patterson: you know, developed. I sort of I personally even with my own explanations, I kind of resist explanation if that's the bottom line. There's no there's always more to understand, in other words. Richard Landes: I mean, when I first read David's work, one of the things that occurred to me was it it's like it's like making sure the Jews are handicapped. David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: In other words, and you can see it in the attitude towards Israel, which is, you know, we're not gonna let you get away with you know doing your best work without being handicapped. You need David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: You need some enemy who is constantly bringing you down. And it's not necessarily me. I I actually like dealing with you guys, but I don't I don't mind the fact that you're handicapped. David Patterson: Well, it's look, is Israel is a miracle in in human history on many levels. those of us who actually follow the the advances, the developments, the contributions to humanity that come out of this little group of people in this little stretch of land, surrounded by nations, whether they're friendly or not, would like to. it get rid of them one way or another. who would Richard Landes: Well, in Deutsch's thing, not necessarily get rid of them, but just make sure that they can't operate without being subject to th that it's legitimate for people to hurt them. I mean, you know, this David Patterson: Yep, exactly. Richard Landes: accusation of genocide is sadistic. David Patterson: Yes, and it's demonizing and it's and it justifies what amounts to murder. Look, people Jews in every time Mamdani refers to Israel as a genocidal state, Jews in New York get attacked. Richard Landes: Yeah. But but on another level, it's it's morally sadistic in the sense that accusing Jews of committing genocide when we were the object of genocide and when David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: Israel goes out of its way not to commit genocide is really a kind of it's it's it's moral sadism. So for example, David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: you know, I remember when I was writing my book, I paid a fair amount of attention to this incident where the Sabaro Pizza bombing in July of two thousand and one. David Patterson: Right. I remember that, yeah. Richard Landes: Yeah. And one of the striking things was that the next day there was a headline in a Spanish newspaper saying Bush is worried Israel will, you know, commit genocide against the Palestinian people. I don't think it was exactly that, but it was sort of given how they've been treated. If they were normal people, this is how they'd behave, and yet they don't, and yet David Patterson: Yeah. Yeah. Richard Landes: the anticipation and the belief that they will behave that way is stronger than the evidence. David Patterson: Yes. It's it's an expression of of the desire of the anti Semi, I think. and we could it's it's a longer, much longer discussion, but I think the Christians wanna kill God, want to kill Jesus for putting a hu for for putting the cross on them. i if the if the Christian s suspects that Jesus is calling me to the cross and not taking my place on the cross, telling me to love others as he has loved us, going to the cross for others, I I mean that's an impossible demand. The jihadists appropriate God. They s you know, they the the Hamas Charter covenant is the covenant of Allah. they speak for God. Beware of people who speak for God. Or who want to save your soul? Richard Landes: Right, right. We we we tend to think that people who speak to God are crazy, but it be it's even worse David Patterson: Ha ha. Richard Landes: when they speak for God. you know, as a medievalist, one of the things that struck me as I was studying Christian doctrine was there was this bizarre inversion where in the old testament, God tells Abraham he doesn't want him to sacrifice his son. And David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: yet what Christian theology does is demand that God sacrifice his son. David Patterson: Yes. Yes. And the Christians read the binding of Isaac as a p prefiguring the crucifixion. That's how they read it. Isaac is carrying the wood on his shoulders and they get Richard Landes: Yes, yes, you know, it it does, but but as opposed to the s original story, you know, the Jews David Patterson: Yeah, don't do it. Richard Landes: carry out that that execution of his son, and it becomes David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: the sort of justification. you have a David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: great quote in your book from Luther about how, you know, if God were just, he never would have let us. make life miserable for the Jews for the last fifteen hundred years. So the fact that their David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: life has been miserable proves and a Fulbert of Chartres says virtually the same thing around the year thousand. David Patterson: Yes. Yes. It's yeah, and this is we're s we're celebrating being infidels this month. Is that the Richard Landes: I w yes, we're becoming aware of two things. We're we're becoming aware of how other people see us, and the other is we're taking hold of that identity and saying, Yeah, you know, I'm an infidel, I'm actually proud to be an infidel, and any serious Muslim is somebody who should be overcoming this appalling supremacism in which they're so convinced David Patterson: Yes. Richard Landes: that their religion is so vastly superior to all other religions that literally there are two categories of people people who have it right and everybody else who has it wrong and who has three choices death, David Patterson: Yes. Yes. Richard Landes: conversion, or submission. And we're saying David Patterson: Well Richard Landes: there should be a fourth option, which is we get to be proud infidels. David Patterson: There is a parallel phenomenon among the anti Zionists. I mean, there I've recently been writing, written about the red so-called red-green alliance. Where Richard Landes: Right. David Patterson: does that come from? How can it even be there? And there are reasons Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. David Patterson: why it's why it is there. the w for the the the name Yisrael is identifies the Jews, Jews as as an individual and as a people. Yisrael's the name of an individual and the name of a people. And it's the name, like like any name, contains within it an obligation, a responsibility, a summons to engage God, struggle with God, even even qu Richard Landes: Wrestle. David Patterson: wrestle with God. like t t tfilah tfilah Prayer it's cog is c a cognate of naftolin, which is wrestling. Prayer is is an engagement, sometimes a confrontation. it's not reducible at least to supplication. w we Richard Landes: I I'm gonna have to check that out. i sometimes sometimes your genealogies remind me of Rabbi Hirsch, who you know it it's free association David Patterson: Well, that it that could be worse. That could I could be I've I've been compared to worse figures. Richard Landes: Yeah, that's true. That's true. He's quite an extraordinary figure. Anyway, so all right. So it's infidel awareness month. we're saying to non-Muslims the world over, and to including to Christians, that you should be aware that this is how Muslims see you. We don't have to tell the what we call neighborly Muslims, that they're seen as infidels. I mean, you know, David Patterson: Right. Richard Landes: any Muslim who doesn't sign on to the supremacist doctrine is considered an infidel, takfir they're they're David Patterson: Rare. Right. Richard Landes: they're denounced as. So how does your argument about the sources of anti Semitism or the sources of hostil let's just brief for the time being call it hostility to Jews. How does that help us deal with it? Or are are you just like David Deutsch, a physicist describing David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: a reality that, you know, like nobody says to Newton, Okay, how do we deal with gravity? David Patterson: Well, if how do we deal with it? I can comment on how how should we Jews deal with it? Richard Landes: Mm-hmm. David Patterson: And and my my short answer is be Jews. Embrace your Judaism. How however you understand the best way you do that, but don't apologize for being Jewish or following Judaism. Rejoice in it. Richard Landes: Like like don't like don't apologize for being an infidel. David Patterson: Exactly. Rejoice in it. and and I also will add, don't stand idly by your brother's blood. Do something. Richard Landes: Yes, and that's one of the things that in Infidel Month, I mean, we're coming up to three days where we're gonna look at October third, fourth, and fifth. We're gonna look at the way in which various groups around the world have been treated by Muslims. And one of the things David Patterson: Mm-hmm. Richard Landes: that strikes me is you know, we talk to people from India or from you know, Christians from Iraq and so on. David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: And they are so thankful that somebody's paying attention because they're literally David Patterson: yeah. Richard Landes: not they're they're they're literally ignored by the world. I mean, you know, there's this one woman who's spectacular, I forget her name, but she's black and she says, Why aren't American blacks coming to the to the rescue of Nigerian Christians who are being, you know, like I think seventy-three David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: percent of the Christians killed. are killed in Nigeria around the world. David Patterson: Yeah, no, that's right. Nigeria is especially bad and the world is hor hor horrifyingly silent about it. Richard Landes: And and horrifyingly obsessed with what they think is going on in Gaza. Whereas if they were to compare what's going David Patterson: Yes, Richard Landes: on in Gaza with what's going on in Nigeria, their argument would fall apart. So, in a sense, in order to justify their hatred of Jews, they must ignore what's happening to other people. David Patterson: Yes, it's a willful ignorance, I think. Maybe I'm too cynical. Richard Landes: Well, if that's the case w both of us are 'cause I agree with you. David Patterson: The yes. especially among the as I said, the so called intellectuals who have who are not stupid, who have no excuse, they're well read, well informed, they make their choices as to what they're going to advocate and or or not. so yeah, I they we are responsible. I would also say don't let the anti Semites or anti Zionist set the terms of the discourse. Don't buy into their language. I think I think it's it's wrong headed to say we have to come up with a better narrative. It's not about narratives, it's about the truth. Richard Landes: Right. Right. David Patterson: so d don't let them tell define who a Jew is, who a Zionist is. We, the Jews, the Zionists, should should establish that. and I think I mean personally, I think fundamental to any Jewish identity is the Torah in in in in one way or another. what our relation to the Torah might be. Each Jew y I'm not gonna I would never try to tell a Jew how you should observe, how observant you should be. I think Jews should love one another. We we have enough Richard Landes: No matter how hard it is. David Patterson: It it it it well one day I'll t I'll share with you something that probably shouldn't be broadcast that Rabbi Adin Steinsal said to me about the Jewish family. Richard Landes: Uh-huh. David Patterson: Some and sometimes you ha you may have some relatives you're not that crazy about. Right. Richard Landes: Right. look, the tour is full of those stories. David Patterson: that's y one after the other, sure. Richard Landes: Right. David Patterson: But we we don't need th the soros or the trouble of giving each other a hard time. I know you know, I say this with all the divisions of Is Israeli society, which you know far better than I, but I I was just there a couple of months ago in Jerusalem for for a couple of weeks and I I mean I go, you know once or twice a year. and you know, and I I it it saddens me when I see internal divisions in Israel of of the kind that I have seen. Richard Landes: Nasty ones. David Patterson: Yeah. They can be nasty, yeah. Richard Landes: All right. Well listen, thank you very much for sharing an hour of your day. David Patterson: Thank you. I I very much enjoyed the conversation. I always liked talking to you and learning from you, Richard. it's I I I I just had a book published called Redemptive Antisemitism after ten seven, in in which Richard Landes: I was looking for that, I couldn't find it. David Patterson: it's it w came out maybe a month ago, but Richard Landes: 'Cause I remember I thought your book was redemptive anti Semitism and I d couldn't find it. Then I found this book, David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: the earlier one, which is about redemptive anti Semitism without it being in the title. David Patterson: Yeah. But I would say I I cite you, you know, quite a number of times in in my work. So I'm in in indebted to you and your work. Richard Landes: Well, the feeling is mutual. I very much enjoy reading your stuff and and thinking about yeah, I mean, you like David Deutsch attack it literally from behind. And David Patterson: Yeah. Richard Landes: and I think that given the you know, it it is it's almost metaphysic it is, you're arguing, it's metaphysical. The the hostility to Jews Is metaphysical. It's not, it doesn't arise from the kind of normal things, us them thinking, racism, xenophobia, whatever. There's something metaphysical at work here. It's it's it's Yeah. All right. Thank you, David. David Patterson: Well, thank you. Keep up the good work. Have a joyous Sukkot and a good Shabbat coming. Thanks so much. Be Richard Landes: Thank you. You too.